Aaarrrggghhh!

I will not reply to the religion thread. I will not reply to the religion thread. I will not reply to the religion thread. I will not reply to the religion thread. I will not reply to the religion thread.

Can someone save me a good seat in Hell?

And didn't I have the same conversation with JWB once?

You can sit next to me, if you want. I plan to bring a package of weenies.

You cannot escape the dark side of the thread. We are everywhere. Give in and come over to the dark side.
Are you a rightous Christian or a godless heathen? one simple question can't possibly be addictive!

Going to hell, eh? Well, cheer up . . .

[i] 14 Best Things About Hell:

14. None of that annoying check-in procedure like with St. Peter.

13. Due to recent health code changes, vats of boiling brimstone now use low-fat canola oil.

12. Your "Do you smell something burning?" slays 'em, year after year.

11. Plenty of legal help available for filing "wrongful death" lawsuit.

10. Newly passed law: Three strikes and you're back in LA.

9. Satan's confused attempts to torture masochists can be highly entertaining.

8. Well, sure, it's hot, but it's a *dry* heat.

7. The surprisingly entertaining "Hitler and Kathie Lee Show."

6. Prizes awarded for best crank phone calls to God.

5. Everywhere you look, there's a smoking section!

4. Free Microsoft software for everyone (as per agreement made back in early 80's).

3. Saturday night WWF tag-team bout between Genghis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, and Hitler.

2. Everyone gets a length of pipe and a daily crack at Nancy Kerrigan's knee.

1. There's a fortune to be made on "Welcome, O.J." t-shirts.

Kat, be strong. I always swear I will not be drawn into a religion thread, and this time I've been very good. I haven't yet felt the need to tell that ignorant inbred snake-grabber what I think of him.


------------------
Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University
"You cannot reason a man out of a position that he did not reach through reason."

Holly: You can sit next to me, if you want. I plan to bring a package of weenies.

--Cool! I'll bring condiments. Who's bringing marshmallows?

Slythe: You cannot escape the dark side of the thread. We are everywhere. Give in and come over to the dark side.
Are you a rightous Christian or a godless heathen? one simple question can't possibly be addictive!

--I believe he thinks I'm a godless heathen, but I'm actually a blasphemer. ;) I've written 2 posts already on that thread, but I've resolved not to make any more.

Unfortunately, I took the bait (on the great debates part of the net, I think) and swallowed it whole. I already agreed there that I'd bring the marshmallows. :)

PR

Hey Kat, how do you like your lightning, ball, chain, greased, or other? Which ghod are you blaspheming against, or is it all of them?
Actually, the G.D. Debate(damn, I love that abbreviation!) has calmed down a bit, because ARG220 is momentarily computerless.
GR8Kat, DO come in. Sometimes you can't learn something unless it is written on the side of a two-by-four, and the more people that join in the more sides of each argument are seen.
If nothing else, you learn HOW to argue effectively by seeing how people react to what you say.

I do my damnedest to stay out of the entire Great Debates forum. I won't win, and I'll just end up crying.

------------------
"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

GR8Kat, DO come in. Sometimes you can't learn something unless it is written on the side of a two-by-four, and the more people that join in the more sides of each argument are seen.

I just don't like to argue. I prefer to just read other people's arguments. But I get sucked in sometimes, and then I take everything personally. I just don't have the intestinal fortitude, I guess :)

------------------
"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

ROFL. Two, non-smoking please.

Dang, now I HAVE to read it just
to see what that "ignorant inbred
snake-grabber" said. If I'm not back
in 2 hours, send out the dogs.

GR8Kat, I've read your posts, and you are precisely the type we need over in the G.D. Debates. Reasoned intelligence is a plus, believe me.

Would you like some mind-candy, little girl? We won't hurt you. promise!

Holly, the weenies are all up in Heaven. At least according to them.

Hey Kat, how do you like your lightning, ball, chain, greased, or other? Which ghod are you blaspheming against, or is it all of them?

Make mine White Lightning, please.

And I blaspheme against ARG's God, of course, because I do not believe that ARG is not the supreme authority on God and I believe that he is arrogant to think that he is. I suppose that I am also a heretic (an heretic?) as well as a blasphemer, because I don't worship the ARG God.

That should be "I don't believe ARG is the supreme authority on God".

My my my. What have we here? Now I'm a snake handler? Please. I must admit it's odd reading insults about myself. (Was that correct English?) Anyway.

A heck, I'm not even going to defend myself. It's pointless to try. It just makes me sad that you poke fun at hell. It's a place of eternal torment and you're talking about bringing hot dogs. I know you're being sarcastic, because you don't believe that hell even exists. The saddest part will be when you realize it does.

Silly, silly ARG220...
We were refering to you, not to hell itself.
Though at times it is hard to tell the difference, due to your insistance at talking down at everyone, and you constant circular reasoning.

Ok, Holly, Kat, and Lissa poked fun at hell, talking about marshmallows, and hot dogs. And others have spoken of bear, and Mark Twain in hell. (On the other threads)

Well, it's all fun and games, until somebody gets hurt.

So, I guess my next question is: Do you all think I'm some sort of freak, or zealot?

I have to agree with you, that many people do extremely stupid things, "in the name of God." And it's those individuals (and sometimes whole groups) that give an awful reputation to the body of Christ, i.e. the Christian church.

Some people hear the word "Christian" and go crazy, because they know of some freak who killed the abortion doctor, or some nut who commited a horrible crime "in God's name." For the millions of us God-fearing, peace-loving Christians, this just rattles our cages. Because then when we try to show the world that God loves them, and that WE love them, they'll have none of it.

ARG220, please remember that this is NOT the Great God Debate thread. Thank you.

Slythe: I was just responding to Hannu's post. Besides, this whole "Arrrrgghhh!" thread is about either me, hell, or religion.
BTW, Kat: Is the title of this thread a direct insult on my screen name? If so, I must say it's clever. (I'll never understand why my parents CHOSE my initials to be A.R.G.)

Adam

Um, no, ARG, "Argh" is the generally accepted phonetic spelling of a person screaming. Not everything is about you.

And this thread is not expressly about you, Hell or religion but rather about expressing frustration about people who have no reading comprehension in regards to ideas that contradict decisions they made when they were 7 years old. Close-mindedness is also an acceptable topic.

Please note, this is the BBQ Pit, so if you continue to post in this thread in the vein you do on other threads, I reserve the right to call you God-boy in my next response.

Hmmm...I have always found religious freaks and zealots rather worrisome creatures. The torture, maim and kill all in the name of god, and righteous religion.



------------------
Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

Kat... speaking of decisions made by 7 year olds...


I think it should be considered child abuse to make a child attend any kind of religious training before the age of 16. It's a form of mind control.

I really abhor the idea that parents sort of "own" their children, so they can mold their minds in any ol' way they please. Yuck.

I am forever thankful that I was raised a heathen, that I might make my own decisions and discoveries when I was old enough to be asking the questions.

(And no, I am not an atheist!)_



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

Stoidela wrote:

Kat... speaking of decisions made by 7 year olds...

I think it should be considered child abuse to make a child attend any kind of religious training before the age of 16. It's a form of mind control.

I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying, "I think it should be considered child abuse to warn children about potential hazards and dangers that they will face growing up in today's world. Let their minds be free. Let them learn all lessons in life the hard way, instead of instilling an enduring value system in their minds when they are young, thus enabling them to avoid making bad choices. Why, if I were to warn my child against taking illegal drugs, for instance, I would be practicing 'mind control' over him!"

I will draw fire by saying this, but I believe that a good religious and moral upbringing is essential to the child's present and future welfare.

Are you implying that one must be religious to be moral or ethical? Methinks this can of worms comes with a free can of whoop ass.

No, I'm not.

Than perhaps you meant to say "religious OR moral upbringing", not "religious AND moral upbringing"?

No, I meant religious AND moral. But that's just my ideal. I'm not trying to force it on you by any means. My kids (if I ever have any) will be raised the way I want to raise them, and I'm perfectly willing for you to raise your kids the way you see fit. Peace, okay? I'm not trying to provoke hostility or anything.

I'm going to go to a place of eternal torment. God must really love me!

PS All the hot dogs may be in heaven, but I bet they don't have good condiments.

ARG:

I am quite aware of the "existance" of hell. I went to a Christian school for five years, but emerged relatively unscathed and undoctrinated despite the best efforts of my teachers. I am extremely familiar with the Bible (still can recite enormous chunks of it by heart.) Just wanted you to know that before you shake your head and chalk me up to being a godless heathen blathering about something I don't understand.

So, without further ado, my explanation about my hell post.

There is an obscure concept out there known as "humor," in which statements are worded in a clever or ironic way that makes people experiance a phenomenon known as "laughter."
Sometimes, these statements are referred to as "jokes," and they are occasionally described as being "funny."

'Nuff said.


------------------
Lissa*

* Name has been changed to protect the guilty.

Snark:

I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying, "I think it should be considered child abuse to warn children about potential hazards and dangers that they will face growing up in today's world. Let their minds be free. Let them learn all lessons in life the hard way, instead of instilling an enduring value system in their minds when they are young, thus enabling them to avoid making bad choices. Why, if I were to warn my
child against taking illegal drugs, for instance, I would be practicing 'mind control' over him!"

I will draw fire by saying this, but I believe that a good religious and moral upbringing is essential to the child's present and future welfare.

It is not in the slightest way similar to what you are saying here. I am not advocating anything like that. Of course we must bring up children with strong values and a moral outlook. And such values are BETTER instilled by means OTHER than religion. Why? Because if your value system and morals are based on a religion, and a belief that "God wants it", they are shaky at best, especially if in the end, like many do, you stop believing in that God. Where is your center then? If your whole reason for being good disappears, why be good? Why not just go shoot up a McDonalds?

If your system of values and morality is founded on a strong sense of self, respect for yoruself and others, a desire to be part of the human community, etc., then it lasts. One's beliefs can come and go and be questioned, while the root of your value system remains firm.

Morality based on a religion is simply a means of turning adult human beings back into children afraid of their parents disapproval. I think it much more rewarding to be good because you want to be, because you want to like yourself when you get up in the morning. Because you value yourself and others, not from fear of anything.



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

Since this is the BBQ room...I am really tired of people who want to save you for your own good. Listen, all you well-meaning, non-violent, loving, non-fruitcake Christians (so you say)- leave me alone- don't do me any favors - I don't want to be saved for my own good! I don't want to hear about the wonders of salvation, or what a friend we have in Jesus. I am not interested. Heaven always sounded to me like an interminable Rotarian awards luncheon, anyway. It's YOUR hell, YOU burn in it!

Stoidela wrote:

Morality based on a religion is simply a means of turning adult human beings back into children afraid of their parents disapproval. I think it much more rewarding to be good because you want to be, because you want to like yourself when you get up in the morning. Because you value yourself and others, not from fear of anything.

I agree. And so does my religion. In fact, the LDS church teaches that it is important to examine our motives, whether we are doing good because we love our God and fellow man, or whether we are looking for rewards, or whether we are just looking to avoid punishment. In fact, the LDS church emphasizes that if we don't have proper motives for our good actions, we won't get the highest/best rewards for them.

So if I mow my ill neighbor's lawn because I love him and have concern for him, my motives are much better than if I mow it just to secure blessings from God, which in turn is better than mowing it in order to avoid being punished for NOT mowing it. Doing the right thing for the right reason is emphasized strongly. I have a lot of trouble in this area, personally. I tend to do things only to gain blessings or avoid punishment, so I guess you could say that I try to do the right things, but for the wrong reasons. I need to work on that. :)

Lissa: There are certain things that are ok to poke fun at. Then there are serious things that deserve our respect. Hell is a place of ETERNAL TORMENT. Why do you make light of it? Ok, let's assume that you think it's pretend. Still, why would you make fun of it?

And yes, this is the BBQ Pit. So, why should any of you care what goes on here, or what I say? I assumed this was a place where anything could be said.

Adam

ARG, I must tell you something very important. Heed this message or die! I am the Leprechaun Queen, the One True magical imp, and your disbelief in me has saddened me. Hark! Did I not send my only begotten son, Lucky, to bear witness of me (check your Sunday paper for valuable coupons)? I have announced my Kingdom on all major network and cable channels; you cannot claim you have not heard my good news. Those who wish to enter my paradise must have faith in me; unfortunately they will eventually perish but in the meantime they will be magically delicious!

Yea Holly, that's really cute. Like I said, it's all fun and games now. But when you die, your chances are gone. You do believe you're going to die don't you? Or is that all fun and games too. Don't make fun a belief system that's been around since the beginning of man. And I may not believe in what Mormons, Muslims, Bhuddists, or even Catholics believe in, but I don't make light of their beliefs.

Adam

No, you don't make fun of them, you just insist that they are wrong and they're all going to hell too.

Can you prove I'm not the Leprechaun Queen?

I'm not afraid to die. Are you?

ARG220, I will use small, easy to understand sentences.
It is not that I don't respect religion.
Though I don't believe, I respect religion.
I just don't respect YOU.
You are not god.
When we critisize you, we are NOT critisizing religion.
O.K.?

To add to Slythe's comments (not quite as simple, so don't be afraid to ask about anything you don't understand, ARG):

1) "Applying a healthy skepticism to information given to you by a church established and run by human beings" is not the same thing as "doubting God".

2) "Parroting church doctrine" is not the same as "understanding God" or "knowing God".

3) Christianity has not been around since the beginning of man.

4) I have no problem with anyone making fun of Hell, because I don't believe I'm going to Hell, or that you're going to Hell, or that Mark Twain is going to Hell.

5) Surely, if God exists, He must have a sense of humor.

6) I have great difficulty (make that "Great Difficulty") accepting the concept of you having discovered the Ultimate Truth and Complete and Total Understanding of God when no one else in the world has. Live with it.

7) Yes, it is arrogant to believe that you and you alone have just happened to discover the Ultimate Truth and Complete and Total Understanding of God when no one else in the world has.

I'm sure I'll come up with more stuff later.

Ok Slythe: Let me use small sentences so YOU can understand.

I know I am NOT God.
But God is my best friend.
So when you criticise God, you criticize me. OK? And BTW, I never expected any of you to respect me. In fact, from the every beginning, I knew that most of you would grow to hate me for the truths that I speak of.

I, however, respect all of you. That is why I made (and am still making) a conscience effort to be humble, even though many of you have torn me to shreds.

And Holly. No, I can't prove that you're not the Leprachaun Queen. But you also haven't flipped the entire world upside down through your teachings either. People aren't willing to die for you. You haven't earned the respect and love of hundreds of millions of people.

And no, I'm NOT afraid to die. In fact, for me, to die is gain. When I die, I'm going home. Heaven is my home. This earthly body, and earthly life pale in comparison to eternity. I can't wait until Jesus comes to take me, and all my brothers and sisters home.

Adam

Of course, you are implying that if we criticise YOU, we criticise god.
Must be lonely when your only friend is invisible and won't talk to you.

I can't wait until Jesus comes to take me, and all my brothers and sisters home.

<ring>
"Hey, Jesus...yeah, time to pick up the kids and take them home...well, they keep squabbling, and they've broken a few things, PLUS, they refuse to act properly in restaurants...ok...thanks...bye"
<click>

Phew. He says he's on His way.

(i did not post to the religion thread...i did not post to the religion thread...i did not...)

Arg:

How is it that He LOVES us SOOOOOOOO much that he would condemn us to ETERNAL TORMENT?

I can't believe you buy into that!

God is LOVE...god has no EGO, god doesn't give a rat's ass WHAT you do with your life, because God recognizes it's all just a show. And god certainly has no interest in seeing you or anyone roast in the fires of hell.

How pathetic, how sad that you choose to buy into such a false and human-centered construct of what god is about, when it is so much simpler than that, so much easier...

Oh well... to each his own.



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

ARG--

You seem unable to get it through your thick brain-washed skull that no one here is criticizing God. What they are doing is making fun of your narrow, bigoted conception of God. God is far too merciful and good to get ticked off at people using the brains He gave them. The belief that he could have had literally BILLIONS of other people whom He will allow to be tortured FOREVER just because they don't agree with what YOUR ignorant little red-neck congregation has been told by their preacher is an incredible INSULT to God. I am sure that He will forgive you for this if you just learn a little HUMILITY and admit that, as a fallible human, you may just be mistaken despite what has been drummed into your mind for the past 2/3rds of your life.

Oh, and as this is the BBQ Pit, I don't even have to pretend to respect your opinions. As I am much older than you, I am sure that I will be Judged before your turn. If you show any indication that you are willing to learn and consider God as a loving father (and a loving father DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES among his children, despite what every culture has believed) rather than a petty, capricious and cruel despot, I might consider putting in a good word for you to the Judge. Otherwise, you will have to answer to Him for the hatred you show to the majority of His peoples and the way you wasted the potential of your mind by just parroting "hosannas".


------------------
Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University
"You cannot reason a man out of a position that he did not reach through reason."

I know I am NOT God.
But God is my best friend.

Dear God, is this guy for real?


------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Dear God, is this guy for real?

Unfortunately, yes. See "The Great God Debate, Parts 1-5" for more details. Scary, ain't it?

Oh, and Adam?

And I may not believe in what Mormons, Muslims, Bhuddists, or even Catholics believe in, but I don't make light of their beliefs.

No, you've just said Muslims were wrong and evil, that Catholics and Mormons weren't Christians, and that Mormonism was a "cult." If that isn't making light of their beliefs, explain to me what the hell is. *sigh* You know, it's people like you that keep convincing me to quit being a Christian. Believe whatever the hell you want, just don't try and force it down our throats.

------------------
"Hindu Muslim Catholic creation-evolutionist"
-Neil Peart, RUSH, "You Bet Your Life"

I think it would be child abuse to saw a kitten's arm off.

-Quadell

I think it would be child abuse to saw a kitten's arm off.
-Quadell

Excuse me?



------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Clean up! We've got a non sequitir in Aisle Five!

Ok Kat. I'll respond to your observations in order. You said: "1) "Applying a healthy skepticism to information given to you by a
church established and run by human beings" is not the same thing as
"doubting God".

2) "Parroting church doctrine" is not the same as "understanding God" or
"knowing God".

3) Christianity has not been around since the beginning of man.

4) I have no problem with anyone making fun of Hell, because I don't
believe I'm going to Hell, or that you're going to Hell, or that Mark
Twain is going to Hell.

5) Surely, if God exists, He must have a sense of humor.

6) I have great difficulty (make that "Great Difficulty") accepting the
concept of you having discovered the Ultimate Truth and Complete and
Total Understanding of God when no one else in the world has. Live with
it.

7) Yes, it is arrogant to believe that you and you alone have just
happened to discover the Ultimate Truth and Complete and Total
Understanding of God when no one else in the world has."

1) Well, um...what? You are not only apllying skepticism, but you're flat out denying the teachings of Christianity. You've denied Jesus, and denied God.

2) Hmmm, no. I'm not parroting anything. The only doctrine I've mentioned is straight from the Bible. And if I've made my own observations, they are made from the Bible.

3) I never said "Christianity" has been around since the beginning of man. And God has been around forever. He spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He was with the Israelites in the Old Testament. He has been teaching humans how to live since the very beginning.

4) I know you don't believe in hell. That much is painfully obvious.

5) God gets joyful, and happy. But you have mocked Him. Repeatedly. (Well, maybe not YOU Kat, but others have) Just know this: God does not like to be mocked. 'nuff said.
6 and 7) These two points tie together. Now. -Sigh- I have never said I've attained supreme knowledge, and that only I know the truth. I did say, that I know the ONLY truth. Do you see the subtle difference? Millions before me, and millions after me will learn of these same truths, i.e. the character of God, His love, His Son, and His laws.

NOBODY has the mind to comprehend God fully. Nobody can come close. But I seek to learn more of Him every day. I want to gain as much knowledge of God as I possibly can. It's not out of arrogance. It's out of love.

Ok Slythe: Well, to make a long story short, I'm not lonely. God is just as real as you, my neighbor, or the guy down at the corner store. And I can talk to Him, and guess what? He talks back. He is a living God. And His Son Jesus lives in my heart. Like I've said a million times, it's a beautiful relationship.

Moving right along...Dr. F: Um, I'm sorry, but your post made no sense whatsoever. Have you read what I've been saying in the other five threads? It is I who's trying to convince all of YOU that God is loving, and merciful. Maybe you should read my posts. Please.

Falcon: I've spoken the truth to you all, in love. Sometimes it comes of harshly, but I've never made fun of any religions, or beliefs. I respect the fact that each person believes they are right. Each religion thinks they have all the answers. But I'm sorry. No, actually, I'm not sorry...God is God, Jesus is the Savior of the world, and the Bible is the truth. There are no two ways about it.


And, um....yea. I'm as real as it gets.

Adam

Adam blathered:

I respect the fact that each person believes they are right. Each religion thinks they have all the answers. But I'm sorry. No, actually, I'm not sorry...God is God, Jesus is the Savior of the world, and the Bible is the truth. There are no two ways about it.

Do you even REALIZE how you contradict yourself? You most certainly do NOT repect anyone else. Would you like me to quote it from the other thread?

And if what you have spoken is truth, then I'm glad that I'm moving away from Christianity.

------------------
"Hindu Muslim Catholic creation-evolutionist"
-Neil Peart, RUSH, "You Bet Your Life"

Maybe one of the problems is ARG220's definition of "LOVE". His definition is "God is love, therefore anything god does is love."
Using this logic, women are subjugated out of "love". Children are beaten out of "love".
Gays are hated and sometimes killed out of "love".
In a human, this behavior of hurting others out of "love" is psychopathic and considered highly dangerous.
From now on, I REFUSE to let the likes of ARG220 steal a word I use towards my wife and my child, and use it to insult, hate, or destroy.

I think that folks like ARG are doing God a disservice. By not questioning behaviors which we would not tolerate in a fellow human being, and forgiving these behaviors simply because the perpetrator is the Supreme Being, they are being enablers. So long as they do not hold their deity to the standards that civilized humans demand of themselves, they will have a deity with the morals of a child holding a burning glass above an anthill.
I refuse to appease a tyrant. I cannot accept a god who would create billions of sentient souls and allow them to be tortured for eternity. ARG has made it quite clear that he believes that is the fate of any persons who do not worship the Bible in the exact same manner as his little cult.
I do not know why God has decided to reveal Himself in different ways to different peoples. But, as every culture produces sincere and good people, I must accept that the path I chose (or which was chosen for me by the accident of my birth into this culture) is no more or less "The Truth" than the paths found by others. I do reserve the right to judge other paths based upon their effects on the general welfare of the world.
A soul can only be damned for conscious actions, not for the circumstances of its birth. Otherwise the Judge is a petty despot.


------------------
Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University
"You cannot reason a man out of a position that he did not reach through reason."

By the Conciliator, from where did I get this bug up my butt? Must be the allergy medication...

I know what love is. Do you? In fact, I use the word "love" very sparingly, because it's a powerful word. I know this is the BBQ Pit, but I feel the need to print up Scripture on what love is. Well, I'll just give you the refference. It's in 1 Corinthians chapter 13. It's known as the "Love chapter" of the Bible.

Now to Dr. F: You say, "A soul can only be damned for conscious actions, not for the
circumstances of its birth. Otherwise the Judge is a petty despot."

Ok. You've chosen not to listen to God. You've chosen not to believe in the Bible. You are chosing your fate. So don't cry when God throws you in hell.

As for the circumstances of birth: Well, it's doubtful that any American has not heard, or been offered the Gospel. So that takes care of this entire country. What about those little bushmen in Africa? Or what about that guy who's been living in a cave?

Here's your answer: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

Birds praise God. Trees praise God. And if humans didn't praise God, then Jesus says, "the stones will cry out."

You have no excuse.

Adam

Adam, thank you for making my point stronger. And with a Bible quote, yet. "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

Yup, God's invisible qualities have been clearly perceived by every culture. And every culture has done its best to interpret those qualities, and all have come up with different ways to praise God. (Whether they believe in Him or not, I also believe that any person who honestly comes to the conclusion of atheism, so long as they also "Love their neighbors as themselves" will be in for a pleasant surprise.)

In every culture there are sincere and good people who try their best to live up to what they understand is God's will. You, however, are willing to have each and every one of them tortured for all eternity because their interpretation of God's will differ from yours. I hope that you are a good enough Christian to not gloat while your god torments the vast majority of all mankind.

Your blindness in worshipping that destroyer god sickens me. I am sure that God is also appalled that you choose to only recognize the most primitive and petty manifestation of Him.

Oh, and in case any thinks to call me on this point, I am not defying my personal vow to avoid posting on a religion thread. This is not a religious debate, this is the BBQ Pit. So anyone wanting to berate me about this, go pound sand.

ARG220 wrote:

As for the circumstances of birth: Well, it's doubtful that any American has not heard, or been offered the Gospel. So that takes care of this entire country.

Yes, but I thought you said that Roman Catholics aren't Christian, and that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are cults. I think it is unlikely that everyone in America has heard *your version* of the gospel.

What about those little bushmen in Africa? Or what about that guy who's been living in a cave?

Well, damn them to hell for not knowing everything they need to know about God! Why not? You're damning the rest of mankind in your mind, Adam. Somehow I think that God will be very lenient with those who haven't heard or been offered your version of the truth, and yet have lived good, honorable lives according to the dictates of their own consciences. Otherwise he wouldn't be Just. Give people some slack and (should I say it, or will this offend you?) *Mercy*.

Dr: You said: "I am sure that God is also appalled that you choose to only recognize
the most primitive and petty manifestation of Him."

Ok, what???? Have you read ANY of my other posts in the GGD? I've told of God's undying love, His mercy, His faithfulness, His justice...where have you been? I think you've got some reading to do.

Snark: You know what? I'm not sure how God will judge the bushman. I know that God is merciful. But the bushman has seen the evidence of God, so he has no excuse.

And stop saying that I'm damning everyone to hell. My word. I wish that ALL of us would go to heaven. EVERYONE in the WORLD! But you people twist my words around, or read between the lines. Sheesh. I've been saying the same things since way back in the original Great God Debate. My hope that you all of you Straight Dopers will get saved is diminishing by the minute here. Some of you don't even WANT to go to heaven. What's wrong with you? Hmm, let's see. Option 1) Go to heaven where it's going to be PERFECT for eternity. Or Option 2) Burn FOREVER in hell. My my my, what do you think it's the better option?

You may think God is cruel, evil, and a tyrant. (all of which is totally NOT true) But at least you'd live in a perfect realm. Why do you chose to burn in hell? YOU all are the crazy ones. NOT me.

Wow, that was the first time I've actually vented my frustrations. -Sigh- You all are impossible. Just impossible.

Adam

Adam wrote:

Snark: You know what? I'm not sure how God will judge the bushman. I know that God is merciful. But the bushman has seen the evidence of God, so he has no excuse.

I disagree. I think there are degrees of knowledge about God, and that God will judge a person perfectly, not just a "one size fits all" judgment. I believe in degrees of salvation, and degrees of damnation, and that God's judgment varies from individual to individual, according to each person's works, faith, understanding, love, etc.

And stop saying that I'm damning everyone to hell.

Sorry. I thought that was what you were saying.

Arg:

And I think that if anything, God is laughing himherself silly.

Here's one for ya: THERE IS NO EVIL. There is also no good. There is only experience.
Contrary to your "understanding" of God (the Divine) as Judge, the divine is utterly free of judgment. There is only balance, or lack of it.

How can I dream for a moment that there is no good or evil? Quite easily, and logically: Think of people who "do evil"...what are evil deeds? Stealing, murdering, maiming, various and sundry other forms of mayhem. All of which are perpetrated upon the person, the body, the physical realm. Evil can only be done in the physical world, not the spiritual one. Evil isn't really evil because evil cannot be done to the spirit. Evil is a construct which allows us to experience the world and not be bored to tears.

As for perfection? It exists all around you, in you. In me. In all of us here, in everyone and everything everywhere. Not your idea of perfection, certainly. But true perfection. Because you and most everyone is still caught up in teh definitions of good, bad, right, wrong, positive, negative, we cannot conceive of what we think of as negative as being perfect. But in truth, it is. Because all of the above is an illusion.
It's just stuff to drive the plot forward.

And your soul knows it.

Your soul made the interesting choice to be a (very old fashioned! You don't see many like you any more. By the way, what denomination are you, anyway? That fire and brimstone stuff is pretty rare these days..) hardcore God FEARING Bible banging christian, and that's ok. But it was just a choice, no better or worse than any other...

And quite an experience it's turning out to be, isn't it?

stoid

Reincarnation: Life sucks and then you die. And then life sucks again.

God-boy says:
1) Well, um...what? You are not only apllying skepticism, but you're flat out denying the teachings of Christianity. You've denied Jesus, and denied God.

Please point out where I have done so. Post a link or copy and paste where I have done anything other than state that I do not believe your concept of God.

You seem to be confused about what number 1 was in regard to. You do not recall being asked:
1) You have never questioned the ideas that your church has taught you,
because you believe if you do, if you examine your beliefs in any way,
you are doubting God (not the people who have taught you this, but God)
and will go to Hell.

You responded "I'm not going to repeat myself about not doubting God" indicating that you believe questioning the information given to you by your church means that you doubt God.

2) Hmmm, no. I'm not parroting anything. The only doctrine I've mentioned is straight from the Bible. And if I've made my own observations, they are made from the Bible.

So then, no part of your beliefs were obtained from religious instruction from your parents or your church?
That's leaving aside the whole "My God exists because the Bible says He does and the Bible is true because God says it is." thing.

3) I never said "Christianity" has been around since the beginning of man. And God has been around forever. He spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He was with the Israelites in the Old Testament. He has been teaching humans how to live since the very beginning.

So you didn't say "Don't make fun a belief system that's been around since the beginning of man."? Or you weren't talking about Christianity?

And how do you know all this is true? How do you know your God exists? "Because it says so in the Bible"? How do you know the Bible is true? "Because it was written by my God"? Well, how do you know your God exists? "Because it says so in the Bible"? But how do you know the Bible is true? (ad infinitum)

4) I know you don't believe in hell. That much is painfully obvious.

Where have I said that I don't believe in Hell? I simply don't believe that all the people you have condemned to Hell simply because their beliefs differ from yours are going there. I certainly believe that it's possible Hitler went to Hell.

5) God gets joyful, and happy. But you have mocked Him. Repeatedly. (Well, maybe not YOU Kat, but others have) Just know this: God does not like to be mocked. 'nuff said.

Do you know the difference between being joyful and happy and having a sense humor?
Also, they have not mocked God, they have mocked you and your "narrow, bigoted conception of God."

Mocking you is not the same as mocking God.
Denying your concept of God is not the same as denying God.
Disagreeing with you is not the same as disagreeing with God.

6 and 7) These two points tie together. Now. -Sigh- I have never said I've attained supreme knowledge, and that only I know the truth. I did say, that I know the ONLY truth. Do you see the subtle difference? Millions before me, and millions after me will learn of these same truths, i.e. the character of God, His love, His Son, and His laws.

NOBODY has the mind to comprehend God fully. Nobody can come close. But I seek to learn more of Him every day. I want to gain as much knowledge of God as I possibly can. It's not out of arrogance. It's out of love.


So, then you deny that it was you who said
"on points 2, and 3 I'd have to say you've pretty much gotten it", in response to being asked:2) You are truly so arrogant as to believe that you have figured out the
Truth about God.
3) You believe that if God contradicts what you believe he is
contradicting himself, rather than just proving you wrong, because you,
of all the human race, have figured out the Truth about God.

Aren't you the one that, when asked what you would do if God appeared to you and told you Himself that you were wrong answered:
Ok, this can never happen. God will never contradict Himself.?
indicating that "God correcting ARG220" means the same thing as "God contradicting Himself"?

Guess what ARG: if God were to appear to you and tell you that you are wrong HE WOULD NOT BE CONTRADICTING HIMSELF, he would be TELLING YOU THAT YOU ARE WRONG.

And no, you did not say that you are the only one to completely understand God. I said that. Because (1) you claimed to completely understand God and (2) no other human being I've ever heard of has ever made that claim. A great many priests, ministers, theologicians(sp?), etc. assert that it is impossible for human beings to completely understand God. Add (1) and (2) together and you get: ARG is the only human to completely understand God. And that's arrogant.

Guess what else ARG: You are human. You have the capability of being wrong. To deny that you have the capability of being wrong is also arrogant.

Stoid: You think that people like me are rare? Well, I'd guess there are a few dozen million of us Pentacostal Christians. (Which is what I am) So, maybe compared to the nearly 6 billion people on earth, we are a select "few." Anyway....

What was all that mumbo jumbo about there not being good and evil? Was that a scenario for me? Or do you really believe in all that stuff you metnioned. I'm curious.

Ok, Kat: Guess what? I know I'm human. And I know that I can be wrong. But I've taken most of what I've said straight from the Bible. And THE BIBLE CANNOT EVER be wrong. And I said, "You've PRETTY MUCH gotten it," regarding your questions. So, I was with you, that I understand God. For goodness sake...little children understand God. His truths are SIMPLE. This stuff isn't rocket science. It's EASY Kat. Simple stuff. Yet you make it so complex, and make God out to be this big mystery.

People far less intelligent than you and I are capable of grasping God's truths. But for some reason, you just don't get it. And it's not just you Kat, it's many people on this board. Why do you all have to make God so complex?

Oh, and about you and hell Kat. You said: "4) I have no problem with anyone making fun of Hell, because I don't
believe I'm going to Hell, or that you're going to Hell, or that Mark
Twain is going to Hell."

Ok Kat. I apologize. I misunderstood that paragraph. It looks like you believe in hell, but only think it's for the real scum of the earth. Well, I have news for you. Hitler may not go to hell. What if, on his death bed, he professed the name of Jesus, and made Him his Lord and Savior. Well, if big bad Hitler really meant that prayer in his heart, then God will forgive Him for all his hideous acts, and grant him eternal life.
Now, I doubt that Hitler accepted Jesus into his heart, so it's a really safe bet that he'll be cookin' forever. But I'm just saying, that no sin is too great to be forgiven by God.

Adam

ARG220 writes:I know I am NOT God. But God is my best friend. If God was actually your "best friend", he wouldn't let you make such a fool of yourself in public!

And he'd probably also advise you to get a clue and stop giving him such a bad name.


jodih nearly induced respiratory arrest when she wrote:Clean up! We've got a non sequitir in Aisle Five!

Where were you when we needed you for Dragonfly99's posts in the "subliminal" threads? DF is the uncontested master of the inane non sequitur! His stuff is a lot funnier than ARG's! (but at least there's no so much of it!)

Snark: You know what? I'm not sure how God will judge the bushman. Well, if he has any taste (and assuming he exists), I'm sure he'll invite me right in!

Arg:

You failed to address Kat's discussion of the truth of the Bible. You say:

THE BIBLE CANNOT EVER be wrong.

And why not? And who told you the bible that you read is the "Right" bible? Must have been a living breathing human, right? And how do you know that THEY are right? The bible you use is different in many particulars from a bible translated directly from the original texts.

So which bible can't ever be wrong?

Speaking of which, you ARE aware, are you not, that millions and millions and millions of people use the same Bible you do and yet do not interpret it as you do? Because you DO interpret it...you must, since the Bible is many things, but straightforward and consistent it is not. So while for the sake of this argument I shall momentarily concede the infallibility of the Bible, we still have to contend with figuring out who among us is infallible in his or her understanding and interpretation of the words therein.

Right?

And as for what I believe, yes, I believe what I said. But I also believe that we because we all make choices it is entirely possible that we all experience exactly the afterlife we are expecting. So while you may sit on clouds with harps and hang out at the feet of jesus, others will be reincarnated, and still others will experience a black void.

You get what you expect in this life...why not the same in the one after, eh?

(And while it doesn't offend me in the least, since I don't require anyone's approval of my beliefs, you might want to check your use of terms like "mumbo jumbo" to refer to things you don't understand. Particularly when you say you respect the beliefs of others. That kind of derision belies your claim.)



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

Ok, what???? Have you read ANY of my other posts in the GGD? I've told of God's undying love, His mercy, His faithfulness, His justice...

Except that according to your sick logic, he will toss billions of good people into the fiery pits of hell because they aren't like you.

Yeah, sounds like undying love, mercy, faithfulness, and justice to me.

BTW - do you know the meaning of the word parroting?


------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Stoid: I didn't address Kat's comments about the Bible, because they've already been discussed at great length in the other 5 threads. I know that the Bible is God's Holly word. It's truth cannot be denied. And I know that there are millions upon millions that don't interpret the Bible as I do. They're called Catholics, and Baptists, and Methodists...etc. For instance, Baptists, although I know they are saved, deny the gift of speaking in tongues. Why? Who knows...I'll never understand why, since it's right there in the Bible.

But there are also millions who interpret the Bible just as I do. They're called Pentacostal Christians. Or Full Gospel Christians. And like me, they don't pick and chose parts of the Bible. It's ALL true.

About my use of the words "mumbo jumbo." Well, I apologize. I repsect your right to believe in that, and I do believe you are serious about it too. So I didn't mean to make light of it...I just think it's wrong.

And Diane: Actually, I didn't know what parroting meant until I looked it up in my trusty dictionary. So, I know what it means, and I know that I haven't done it.

ALL of the bible is true?
As easy as this is to have fun with, I'll wait my turn for just a little bit.
Batter UP!

In the name of Marduk, Adam, do you ever read what you write or think before posting?

You may think God is cruel, evil, and a tyrant. (all of which is totally NOT true) But at least you'd live in a perfect realm. Why do you chose to burn in hell? YOU all are the crazy ones. NOT me.

Any tyranny looks "perfect" to those who feel they benefit from sucking up to the tyrant. So long as you feel that you have an inside track to the favor of the despot you are perfectly willing to APPROVE of his torturing almost every other soul who has ever lived. Any deity who wants my respect has to have higher morals than you are willing to invest him with. If God is as petty and cruel as who wish Him to be, then I will gladly go to Hell itself rather than compromise my ethics by supporting such injustice.

Fortunately, I believe with every fibre of my being that you are wrong, and you are just projecting your own xenophobia and weakness onto the Deity. I predict that if you ever get an education, you will begin to doubt what your preachers have told you. And, because you have no experience thinking for yourself, you will blame God for the blinders you have been cheerfully wearing and become one of the agressively anti-religionist athiests.




------------------
Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University
"You cannot reason a man out of a position that he did not reach through reason."

Dr. Fidelius:

Oh, I don't think anyone who has swallowed so much in such an intact condition could ever become an atheist. He needs some kind of religion.

So let's take bets...I have $5 sez Wiccan!



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

I'm not gonna go into my personal beliefs here; I do want to clear up a common misconception. I've noticed that many of you, believers and nonbelievers alike, refer to hell as some kind of eternal suffering. A good Christian friend of mine who is quite a theologian says that people(or their souls or whatever) who go to hell do NOT "burn forever" but are simply incinerated and then no longer exist at all. I can handle that.

"Some people hate sin more than they love the Lord." --who said that first?

..."God's holly word."

Is that like "holly jolly Christmas?". (Sorry, couldn't resist!) ALL of the Bible is "true"? I don't profess to be a theological scholar, but I do think it was meant to be interpreted. Besides, wasn't most of it found in some jars in the desert? How do you KNOW it's the actual word of God?- I mean, it was written down by someone- it didn't appear on the side of a mountain in burning script ala Cecil B. DeMille. The fact that some human agency was involved makes it highly unlikely it had any sort of divine origin. The Bible, especially the Old Testament, reads to me more like legends or folk tales, like Beowulf or the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Stoidela--

Odin All-Father protect me, but I now have a vision of Adam standing nekkid in a field somewhere awaiting the solstice. I'm going to have to watch a pig being slaughtered to get the image out of my mind.

After thinking about it, maybe he would turn to another creed. Since he likes having his preacher think for him, I'd put money on $cientology...

Tenn--
I like that interpretation, but Adam would not be satisfied unless I have an eternity of torment.

Here's a notion:

Arg isn't a Pentecostal Christian at all. In fact, Arg is a hardened atheist. He just really likes attention, and he's learned that this is the most effective way to get it. After all, look at how many people are arguing with him ALONE. So far as I've been able to see (and I grant that I haven't read everything around here) he is the ONLY one defending the hard-line Christian viewpoint. And look at how much energy he's creating around himself by doing it.

It's telling, don't you think, that the Straight Dope seems to attract so few of the Christian persuasion... I guess that as a group they are allergic to both accurate information and humor.



------------------
Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

No, I think that he is the real thing. The trouble is that his only friend(god)doesn't talk back, and he is VERY lonely.
I mean, can you imagine him having any friends? "When you criticise me, you criticise god, and if you criticise god, you go to hell." Even a fundamentalist wouldn't put up with crap like that.

Stoid et al. Well I guess I just got sucked in. I was an athiest for most of my life and am now Christian. No, I didn't get baptized and start speaking in tongues. I just believe in God and pray with my wife. Still meditate, still believe in the wisdom of the Tao, still read SD. Still think for myself.

Argg just can't be an individual for whatever reason. Poor guy, he finds *some* way to be happy and then ruins it by insisting on preaching it here, of all place.

My Born again uncle used to preach in Biker bars. He got less abuse.

Arg said:You think that people like me are rare? Well, I'd guess there are a few dozen million (my bolding) of us Pentacostal Christians.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Does that mean that there are MILLIONS like ARG? Aaarrrggghhh!!!
I know I'm human. And I know that I can be wrong.
REALLY?
THE BIBLE CANNOT EVER be wrong.
WHY?
People far less intelligent than you and I are capable of grasping God's truths. But for some reason, you just don't get it. And it's not just you Kat, it's many people on this board.
YEP. You are right. People as intelligent or far more intelligent than us ARE NOT capable to grasp "God's truths". Why do you think that is?

Man! You deserve your own thread...

¡Salud!

Now I sort of wish I'd read the Great God Debate. Had I known that Arg was Pentecostal, I would have known that I was wasting my breath.

In my community, there's a huge Pentecostal community. A good friend of mine was a member. I attended her church a few times out of curiosity. Now, I'm not saying this is true of all Pentecostal churches, but I was shocked and appalled at the things I witnessed. The precher used "scrptures" that weren't even in the Bible. He preached the subjugation of women, and hinted that a husband "disciplining" his wife was acceptable.

My friend told me that unless you could speak in tounges, you weren't "saved" and thus were damned eternally, yadda yadda yadda. I countered with scriptures that were actually in the Bible that stated the contrary. No, she said, I was interpreting it wrong.

So, I pointed out that the Bible is actually against large groups of people speaking in tongues, and if there's no one that can interpret what is said by a person speaking in tounges, then don't do it at all. According to Saint Paul, it would just scare off potential converts.

She had attended the Pentecostal church her entire life, and yet had never seen these scriptures. Still, after I showed them to her, she still wouldn't budge. Too firmly indoctrinated.

To ARG:

I think that your response to my defense of my post was more comical than the post in question was. You really need to lighten up. Seriously. Geesh.

God has a sense of humor. The platypus is a prime example.

I just types a fairly long post, and when I tried to post it, they told me I wasn't registered, so this is a test before I type the whole bloody thing over again. thanks for bearing with me.

And you call yourself "Lucky"?

Okay, hang on . . . I don't really want to join ya'll in knocking little old Adam around like a religious pinata, but Stoidela says:

the Straight Dope seems to attract so few of the Christian persuasion... I guess that as a group they are allergic to both accurate information and humor.

Ow, ow, ow! I am a Christian, I like accurate information, and I think I have a sense of humor . . . um, it's around here somewhere . . . I must have left it in my other coat . . . .

Ok, looks like it works now.

Adam,
Many people on this thread have called you names and been insulting towrads you. In some instantces, I understand their motivation. Nevertheless, BBQ pit or not, I will try to refrain from insulting you. I would, however, suggest that you have not thoroughly considered some of your beliefs. Let's go back to the Bushmen.
You have repeatedly said that people who do not believe in Christ are going to hell, yet you also said that you are not sure about the fate of the Bushmen. If you are not sure of the fate of the Bushmen, and concede that maybe they are not going to hell, then please modify any future statements about who is and isn't going to hell.
There is another point I've always wondered about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the bible says that anyone who earnestly seeks god will find him, right? Well, I do a lot of charity work in Nepal (it's a small country north of India and South of Tibet). Most of the people I work with are Hindus. They are very devout people. In fact, their religion is so incorporated into their lives that there is no word in Nepali which directly corresponds to our English word, "religion". It is simply not something that one can seperate from the rest of life. These people pray regularly, and they feel a connectedness with god(s). They will attest to having the same sort of spiritual experiences to which Christians attest. They, too, feel that they communicate with god(s), that god(s) guides their lives, and they can give you many examples of the ways god(s) works in their lives. Now, three questions for you: 1) Since they are praying and sincerely seeking communion with god, why are their prayers being answered in a way that encourages and confirms their beliefs in Hinduism? Why isn't god directing them towrads Christianity? 2) Given that they are as sincere in their beliefs as you are, and experience the same sort of things, how can you (or anyone) possibly know that one religion is right and the other is total hogwash? Everything that you calim demonstrates god working in your life also happens to them. How can you explain this? 3) Imagine a Hindu as sincere in his beliefs as you are in yours trying to convince you that Hinduism was right (this would never happen for reasons I won't get into here--I am saying this only for the sake of argument). He would never be able to convince you, right? Well what reason does the Hindu have for converting to Christianity? You can provide to him nothing that he doesn't already get through his own methods of worship. The only thing the Christians add is fear of hell, which many missionaries find a very useful tool. Now, if the hindus really are heathens, and your god would prefer that they come to recognise him as the one true god or face the torments of hell, shouldn't he give them some reason, some sign that they are on the wrong path?

------------------
"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

I have heard this argument many times, an personally I do not believe that God would send a pious Hindu to Hell.

What I want to know is if there are any good biblical cites where jesus discusses a revocation of the 1st commandment. I know what he said about graven images on coins, but what about other religions?

Thor--

First off, congratulations on finding a path that suits you. May you find peace and fulfillment.

Now, a revocation of the 1st Commandment? The "thou shalt have no other gods before Me?" I don't believe that it has been overturned or "fulfilled", and from what I have seen no Jew is having another god before YHWH. Also, that doesn't seem to be one of the inconvienent sections of the Law that Paul swept under the metaphorical rug, so Christians should still hold to it. I don't think it applies to anyone who does not recognize the authority of the Law in their religion. What other "gods" were you thinking of? I had thought that an infinite Being can have an infinite number of aspects, depending upon what angle It is viewed from.

From jodih RE: Stoidela:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the Straight Dope seems to attract so few of the Christian persuasion... I guess that as a group they are allergic to both accurate information and humor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ow, ow, ow! I am a Christian, I like accurate information, and I think I have a sense of humor . . . um, it's around here somewhere . . . I must have left it in my other coat . . . .Gotta agree with jodih there. I'm a Christian and I also feel that I have a good sense of humor and like accurate information. I've seen a number of Christians around here that fit that description. Probably more often than not, the Christians are going to avoid showcasing their personal beliefs on this MB. Incidentally, although he doesn't come out and say it, Unca Cece strongly implies that he's Christian in a couple of his columns. In one column he mentions only one known virgin birth in recorded history. A reader wrote in and asked him what he was talking about. Cecil replied that he'd tell her, but feels that it's pretty well documented.

(How was my sense of humor on this post? Whoo-HOO!! Knee slapper wasn't it!? < rubbing tears of laughter from my eyes >)

Thanks, Doc. Problems with the first: Praying to saints, the trinity, considering Jesus God, all pop into mind. I guess my thinking was running along the lines of "God delivered the Commandments pre-Jesus. Jesus comes around and changes the rules a bit, and is, well, god. SO two parts of God changes the original rule." I tend to lean towards judaism a bit.

I would also agree with you that if God is infinite any time you worship, you are worshiping Him. YOu put it well, an infinite god has infinite aspects.

But most specifically, I was if scripture (and not 11th century religious scholars) had re-adressed the first Commandment in light of Jesus.

So, I was with you, that I understand God. For goodness sake...little children understand God. His truths are SIMPLE. This stuff isn't rocket science. It's EASY Kat. Simple stuff. Yet you make it so complex, and make God out to be this big mystery.

You have obviously never asked your hypothetical little child to explain his/her concept of God to you.

[/quote]People far less intelligent than you and I are capable of grasping God's truths. But for some reason, you just don't get it. And it's not just you Kat, it's many people on this board. Why do you all have to make God so complex?[/quote]

Okay, so it's gone from "ARG alone understands God" to "ARG and a bunch of less intelligent people understand God"?

Oh, and about you and hell Kat. You said: "4) I have no problem with anyone making fun of Hell, because I don't
believe I'm going to Hell, or that you're going to Hell, or that Mark
Twain is going to Hell."

Ok Kat. I apologize. I misunderstood that paragraph. It looks like you believe in hell, but only think it's for the real scum of the earth.

Nope. And I'm not going to bother trying to explain what I think about Hell because it's more complicated than "Everyone who disagrees with my beliefs goes to Hell" so you probably wouldn't understand it.

I'm gone from this thread.

Wow. Now it's me against the board. I can hardly defend myself against two of you, much less ALL of you. But....whatever.

Um, I'm not atheist. I am what I've said I am. A born again, Spirit filled Christian. I will never leave God, no matter how many books I read, or how much I study. Frankly, I don't understand how anybody can claim to believe in God, and then after reading some books, deny His existence. That's just beyond me.

There have been some 600 (according to my rough estimate) posts on God since I asked all of you, "What are you beliefs on God," back a month ago. I wanted to know the spiritual pulse of this group of people, and I've sure found it.

I think I am misunderstood here. Most of you have read between the lines of my posts, when there were no lines to read

::blatant witnessing snipped by moderator::


Thank you all for letting me share my heart for a bit. :)

Adam


[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]

I'm sorry. That last post was rude at the beginning. I was frustrated when I started typing, but calmed down half way through. I didn't mean to be so rude, and I hope all of you will take time to read that post with an open mind. And please forgive my attitude, because that last post is truly from the bottom of my heart. (Well, the second half of it.)

Thanks again.

Adam

Dear Adam (or ARG):
It doesn't matter that I disagree with most of what you say. I still respect you as a person who has a right to his own opinions; someone who is just trying to do the best he can with what he has to work with. As a fellow human being, I love you. Because God or Jesus or Buddha or Muhammed or some preacher told me to? No. Simply because it is the right thing to do.

Thanks TennHippie. It's nice to read a post that I totally agree with. It's out of love, that I'm even on this message board. It's out of love that I'm witnessing to all of you. I know I've been pretty wacky at times. (Have you been reading the GGD 1-5?) But really, I've been totally sincere in every way, even when I SEEM like I'm contradicting myself.

I know some of you will read my post and think, "Well, what if we don't believe a word you say?" You think I want to send you all to hell. (which is so untrue) But here's a better question to all of you:

What if you DO believe what I say?
Now, there's some food for thought.

Adam

<hr>ARG:Ok, what???? Have you read ANY of my other posts...? I've told of God's undying love...<hr>

Yes, many of us have read your posts to the GGD...what we got from this is:
G-d = love --> love = allowing people to "burn for eternity" for questioning.

Do you not see a problem equating these? Do you think maybe a supreme being might have more important things to do than d*mn all the non-christians?

<hr>ARG:I'm not sure how God will judge the bushman. ...God is merciful. ...has seen the evidence of God, so he has no excuse.<hr>

<Sigh>...the bushman probably has seen the evidence of G-d. Here's the kicker...he simply interprets the evidence differently. Should he burn for that? If he does, then G-d is an unreasonable tyrant...

<hr>And stop saying that I'm damning everyone to hell.<hr>

Sorry, I guess it would be more correct to say that G-d is d*amning everyone to h*ll. Especially those LDS and JW 'cults'...Lord forbid people think differently in this world.

<hr>Hmm, let's see. Option 1) Go to heaven ... Or Option 2) Burn FOREVER in hell. <hr>

option 1)Go through life never questioning anything and living an empty shell of an existence 2)question, learn, grow, understand...hmmm, what's the better option here.

<hr>ARG:"I didn't know what parroting meant until I looked it up .... So, I know what it means, ... I haven't done it."
The American Heritage® Dictionary: par-rot-ed, par-rot-ing, par-rots
"To repeat or imitate especially without understanding"<hr>

Let's look back at all those Bible quotes you've posted. Since you've never questioned the Bible (it is, after all, the only truth), you simply accept the truth of these verses. How does one understand something they've never questioned? Don't tell me...G-d told you so.

------------------
"True irreverence is disrespect for another man's god." -- Mark Twain

"Such is the human race. Often it does seem such a pity that Noah and his party did not miss the boat." -- Mark Twain

"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world-and never will." -- Mark Twain

ARG220 wrote:

Wow. Now it's me against the board. I can hardly defend myself against two of you, much less ALL of you. But....whatever.

Well, I for one am not against you, just because I disagree with some of the things you have said. I think you're a very sincere, loving person and I respect you for sticking up for your beliefs. I think we can agree to disagree on tenets of our respective religions without becoming enemies or anything. And I'm sorry for twisting your words around--anyone who knows me from the old AOL SDMB knows that I do that sometimes. It's not any fault of yours. I just misunderstand people a lot.

Peace. :)

Bill

This message board is for discussion, NOT witnessing. You want to discuss, fine, discuss. You want to argue, fine, argue. Don't expect anyone to accept arguments from authority, either real or nonexistent.

I will not, however, tolerate spam or witnessing or illegal pyramid schemes to be posted on forums under my control. If you want to post spam, post to the BIZ newsgroups. If you want to witness, go post it in a religious-oriented area.

SDStaff Lynn

In response to Lynn's post:

I thought spam was junk e-mail. So, am I spamming? I thought we were debating. The only time I've ventured into real witnessing was with my last main post. And what's an illegal pyramid scheme? Wow, Lynn makes it souns like I'm breaking the law or something.
I have read many, many posts here on the Straight Dope, about countless topics, going back to when it was on AOL. And people have said far worse, and far more offensive things than I have. So, was Lynn directing me to a religious section of the Straight Dope? Or was she basically saying, "pack up and leave if you're gonna talk that way on my board." ??

Maybe somebody with more SD expertise can help me understand what's going on here.
Adam

Arg (and Lynn):

I certainly can't explain it. Given that this is obviously, for the most part, a very intelligent, confident group of people, I cannot imagine why Lynn felt she had to "snip" your witnessing. If I don't want to read it, I dont' have to. I certainly don't need Lynn to spare me from it.

Seems pretty low to me...

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Stoidela, maybe part of the problem is ARG220's deceptiveness. This all started when he posed the FAKE question enguiring on other's religious beliefs. It soon became apparent that he was only interested in converting people to HIS rigid beliefs. He only accepts one interpretation of one book as authority, is not interested in any other references whatsoever, has repeatedly told everyone they are going to hell, and is ignoring all arguments to use this as a forum to preach.
I equate this to Jimmy Swaggart, who can't get airtime on Sunday mornings any more, using cable access as free airtime for his religious/commercial ventures. In a word, sleazy and dishonest.

I approach every new person presuming that they deserve respect. And I try my best to continue to respect that person even if I do not respect their ideas, opinions, or outlook on life. The fastest way to earn my disrespect is through willful and prideful ignorance and intolerance. If a person does not wish to allow others to live (or approach the Deity) as they choose, so long as that manner of life does not negatively impact the lives of others, that person does not deserve my respect.

I am capable of reasonable debate, but I try to adapt to the mores of the venue. As I had said, this is the BBQ pit...

Well, I'm willing to accept Arg's explanation at face value, that he was taking the religious temperature of the place. Seeing as he is so enthralled with his own religion, it's obviously a matter of some import to him.

And Dr. F, while I have always found the Christian need to convert everyone deeply distasteful, I have also always understood that it is a deeply ingrained part of the religion. Most Protestant Christian denominations call for their faithful to spread the word in one form or another. As I undeerstand it, it is part and parcel of being a "good" Christian...it is their job to try and save souls through witnessing.

Cuz remember, if you don't get the Word, you're going to hell, so it behooves a good Christian to spread it. So I try not to hold it against them.

As for respect? Well, any faith that requires deliberate ignorance (i.e., any faith that demands you swallow the Bible whole as literal truth, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) gets no respect from me. It's the equivalent of saying: "You show your faith by choosing to be blind and stupid" and I don't have much use for that.

I also have no use for any religion that subjugates (my brain is toast, that spelling looks wrong) women. Which is why I dont' respect Islam, fundamentalist christianity, Orthodox judaism, etc.

There is a part of the morning prayer for Orthodox Jews that blows my mind: "Thank you God for not making me a woman." Yikes!

And what really slays me about these religions is that the women PUT UP with it! (Like that ladiesmanifesto broad... good heavens!). Not unlike the women in those cultures (many of them Muslim, interestingly) that practice female genital mutilation...what the fuck is up with THAT????

<shiver>

I'm rambling... gotta go!


------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

When I asked about the religious beliefs of everyone on this message board some time ago, my question was not "fake." It was an honest inquiry, and I had no hidden motives behind it.

I'm not even sure how I got to "preaching" to you all in the first place. But I was never deceptive in any way.

Nobody has told me what "spam" is yet. Could one of you tell me please?

And Stoidela basically says that I'm blind and stupid for believing what I do. Well, it's not like I haven't seen evidence of God. It's not like I'm following a ghost. I believe the Bible is real, because I've seen it change lives. I've seen the most vile men around, fall on their face and cry before Jesus. I've seen broken familes made whole again by God's grace. I've heard testimonies of cocaine addicts who quit cold turkey, and had no withdrawl symptoms, because of the power of God. I've seen frail 85 year old women dance with joy before the Lord, just because He makes them glad to be alive.

I'm not making any of this stuff up to provide a stronger case for God. This is real. I'm not worshipping, and loving a figment of my imagination. I'm loving and serving the living God.


Adam

Adam,

I don't doubt that you have seen/heard the things you claim to, but what would you say if I told you that Hindu's experience the same thing? I am using the Hindu's only as an example, but people of many different faiths attest to these same type of experiences. My point (and I think many other peoples as well) is that the evidence you present to justify your beliefs may not be sound. Mind you, I don't care what you believe and am not asking you to prove anything. I am only saying that by your admittedly limited (if not non-existant) exposure to other religions and their beliefs, you are in no position to judge which one is right. You simply don't have enough information.

::blatant witnessing snipped by moderator::

Let me be the first to say, "Thank you, Lynn!"


------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Heeeyy!!!!! I just realized that Lynn cut off the most important thing I've EVER said! Come on! Can she do that? I don't care, you can delete ALL five Great God debate threads, but why did you have to cut out THAT section????? - heavy sigh- This is rediculous. :(

Lucky: I stopped being judgemental a while ago. And I do not know enough about Hinduism, or any other religion or cult to make a strong defense. I don't know what I'd say to a Hindu. I know I'd speak of God's love. But I really hate arguing, because, as we've seen here...it gets us nowhere.

I still can't believe that my post got hacked to bits. As Vizzini would say, it's.."Inconceivable!!"

Adam

I really, really, really, dislike Adam and anyone like him who completely devalues the entire idea and import of the word "love" by claiming, "I love all people." Bullshit. That makes the entire idea of love in any of its forms completely meaningless.

Adam, you are a little boy, with little boy thoughts and little boy ideas. Rather than contempt, I feel nothing but pity for you. How sad that the world is still encumbered by people who think the way you do.

Hey, it's PLdennison again. Long time no see. Hmm, you call me a little boy, and think that I have little boy ideas. Well big bad PL, why haven't you answered my question yet? What happened to you that made you go from somebody like me, who loves God, to your current atheist condition. Hmmm? You ever going to answer me?

For somebody who I could have called "brother," you are certainly acting immature. You say you feel pity for me. Then tell me your story PL. Tell me why it's pitiful to believe in God. And as for love? Well, I'm afraid that you don't know what love is.


I just want to know what happened to you. How did you go from Spirit filled Christian, to ornery atheist.

Adam

Hey, it's PLdennison again. Long time no see. Hmm, you call me a little boy, and think
that I have little boy ideas.

Wow, that was astute!! Thanks for the recap.

Well big bad PL, why haven't you answered my question yet?

Because I don't feel obligated to tell you my life story; it's irrelevant.

What happened to you that made you go from somebody like me,

Even when I was religious, son, I was never like you.

For somebody who I could have called "brother,"

Insofar as we are both Homo sapiens, sure.

And as for love? Well, I'm afraid that you don't know what love is.

My wife breathlessly awaits your piercing analysis. We celebrate our 8th wedding anniversary in just over two weeks.

I just want to know what happened to you. How did you go from Spirit filled Christian, to ornery atheist.

Ornery atheist? Grow up, kid. Suffice to say that I actually learned things about life and the world, about culture and mythology, about rationality and irrationality, about the difference between truth and facts, stopped needing scary scapegoats, and stopped needing invisible friends.

PL says: [quote]Grow up, kid. Suffice to say that I actually learned things about life
and the world, about culture and mythology, about rationality and
irrationality, about the difference between truth and facts, stopped
needing scary scapegoats, and stopped needing invisible friends. [quote/]


Ok, so let me translate that. Your faith in God was never THAT strong to begin with. When someone's faith in God is tested, they usually tend to get stronger. But you fell away. And the saddest part is that you think you're going to be ok now. You think this life is better than your old one. You think you're wiser now that you've read all those books, and studied all that information.

When in fact, you've lost everything Pldennison. And my friend, it is I, who feels pity, for you.

Adam

I hate to join a fight late but... Better late than never. HOLLY, your post on the 29th about my only begotten son Lucky? That fuckin' slayed... Had to pinch myself to keep from wetting my pants. Just thinking about it is making me laugh all over again... Anyway.

ARG is not going to leave us alone. It is a part of his belief system to go out and preach the gospel. He thinks he is doing us a favor, for our own good and his personal salvation as well. I honestly believe he is well meaning but it his intentions come across as callow and vindictive to non-Bible-thumpers. Kind of like a senile grandmother trying to get you to eat your carrots. It is best to smile and nod, then spit the carrots into your napkin to feed to the dog when the opportunity arises. To try to convert someone is not a bad thing... merely annoying. He looks at us like children unknowingly playing Russian Roulette and we look at him like he is an asshole because he doesn't realize the gun is made of chocolate.

Hmmm, let's see. . . since I stopped believing in fairy tales, I:

--completed college
--got a great job
--have received regular bonuses, most recently a $3,500 bonus 2 weeks ago
--have a great 8-years-and-counting marriage to a woman I love very much
--live in a great house in a great neighborhood
--have nearly everything I want, except for not having my student loans paid off yet
--am happier than I've ever been in my life.

Yeah, I'm suffering, kid. I'm really tormented because I'm not part of the puerile WWJD club, and I don't get to pretend that invisible imps are making my car break down or that muscular guys with wings are kicking their asses whenever I say the magic word.

Please, spare me your platitudes. The most sophisticated argument anyone has ever seen from you is, "The Bible is absolute literal truth because it says it is." I've seen more solid theology on "Highway to Heaven."

I could take everything you know about life, reality, truth, and the world, put it in a very small thimble, and have room left over. I'm not sure where you think you have the grounds to make any claims to wisdom, knowledge or pity, but you are in for some sad, sad revelations at some point in your life.

"I thought spam was junk e-mail. So, am I spamming? I thought we were debating. The only time I've ventured into real witnessing was with my last main post. And what's an illegal pyramid scheme? Wow, Lynn makes it souns like I'm breaking the law or something.
I have read many, many posts here on the Straight Dope, about countless topics, going back to when it was on AOL. And people have said far worse, and far more offensive things than I have. So, was Lynn directing me to a religious section of the Straight Dope? Or was she basically saying, "pack up and leave if you're gonna talk that way on my board." ?? " Adam

Spam is unwanted junk email, or unwanted posts on a message board/newsgroup, usually commercial, but occasionally religious or political in nature. The term spam was first used to refer to multiple posts on newsgroups. It has since been expanded to include email.

I did not mean to imply that ARG was involved in a pyramid scheme. However, someone HAS posted a URL containing a pyramid scheme in the past, and I have deleted or changed it. I put that in my post as an example of what I will modify or delete.

"I certainly can't explain it. Given that this is obviously, for the most part, a very intelligent, confident group of people, I cannot imagine why Lynn felt she had to "snip" your witnessing. If I don't want to read it, I dont' have to. I certainly don't need Lynn to spare me from it.

Seems pretty low to me..." Stoidela

Because I don't want this to turn into a "witnessing" MB. I've seen it happen to other areas. And to be consistent, I'm going to snip ALL witnessing. So far, I've gotten one public thank you and over a dozen private emails thanking me.

"Heeeyy!!!!! I just realized that Lynn cut off the most important thing I've EVER said! Come on! Can she do that? I don't care, you can delete ALL five Great God debate threads, but why did you have to cut out THAT section????? - heavy sigh- This is rediculous. " Adam

Not only CAN I do it, I did do it. I cut out that section because it was witnessing. You are not interested in hearing other viewpoints, you only wish to convert people to your own sect. You have shown no evidence that you respect or even understand other people's beliefs, nor do you show any sign of doing so in the future. Like I said earlier, you want to discuss, fine. You want to argue, fine. But the Straight Dope is NOT meant to be an outlet for frustrated would-be preachers. Go to Keyword: Spirituality on AOL and have fun.

Incidentally, there's a LOT more that I felt like snipping...but I'm going to let it slide for now. However, let me say one more time: THIS SITE IS NOT MEANT TO BE A WITNESSING FORUM. We've had people witnessing and preaching on the old AOL forum, and we tried to keep those weeded out. This site is meant to aid in stomping out ignorance. If you're not interested in learning new things, then this probably isn't the site you should be involved in.

It sounds like you've got a pretty fine life there PL. Nice house, good job, adoring wife. But what will it all amount to when you die? It's not going to do you a bit of good. When I said you've lost everything, I meant it. And when I say I feel sorry for you, I REALLY mean it.

You have no life PL. It was taken from you the minute you denounced God. Remember this: To live, is Christ.

To be honest PL, when I look at you, I see a dead man walking.


Adam

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Show me something you can prove, kid, and maybe I'll hear more than the pathetic, repetitive bleating of some brainwashed dingus who couldn't think his way out of an open closet. "Dead man walking" . . .gimme a fucking break, Sister Prejean.

PL:

Hmmm...not to side with Arg or anything, but I gotta tell ya... you might want to reflect a little further on the things that make your life so great.

--completed college
- Good thing. Did you enjoy it? Did it enrich your life? Did it instill in you a lust and an appreciation for learning? Or was it simply step one to:

--got a great job
- Well, ok. What's great about it? Do you love what you do? Do you get a great sense of accomplihment? Are you proud of your work? Or is it just:

--have received regular bonuses, most recently a $3,500 bonus 2 weeks ago

The Money?

--have a great 8-years-and-counting marriage to a woman I love very much

Well, that is certianly something to be happy about. A healthy, long lasting, committed love is right at the top of most people's list and it is not something everyone gets.


--live in a great house in a great neighborhood

Hmm... seems we're kinda back on the money track here, and what money buys.


--have nearly everything I want, except for not having my student loans paid off yet

And the structure of this sentence seems to imply that everything you want can be bought, since the one thing you haven't bought yet is freedom from your debts.


--am happier than I've ever been in my life.

Because...? You have a good job that pays you enough money to buy all the "stuff" you desire? (And a great relationship)

Whatever floats your boat, certainly, but when you get to the end of your life, after you've reflected upon your wonderful marriage, will the rest of it be:

"And we had lots of money and owned alot of stuff?"

Just suggesting a re-think...or maybe just a re-phrase.




------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Stoi, who are you to crap on what Dennis finds pleasurable about his life? The guy sounds like he is happy. I didn't arrive at the conclusion that he was somehow overly materialistic. Sounds like he is thankful for the things in his life that give him comfort and happiness. It is naive to think that money doesn't afford comfort. It does, just a nasty fact of life in the good old US of A. The point I believe he was making is that his lack of believe in ARG's view of God hasn't hurt him. He is leading a rewarding and fulfilled life on his own terms. You seem to be suggesting that his happiness is a diaphanous dream based on money. You could be correct but his post didn't imply that. If you are concerned about his immortal soul then just come out and say so...

Oh, fer. . .OK, Stoi, one by one:


--completed college

- Good thing. Did you enjoy it? Did it enrich your life? Did it instill in you a lust and an
appreciation for learning?

I already had those, Stoi. The fact that I completed college was a personal achievement, as I was the first in my immediate family to do so (neither my parents or my sister did), and I did so by paying my own way and despite enormous personal difficulties and taking 8 years to do so.

Or was it simply step one to:

quote:

--got a great job

- Well, ok. What's great about it? Do you love what you do? Do you get a great sense of
accomplihment? Are you proud of your work?

Are you, like, retarded? What does "great job" mean to you?

Or is it just:

quote:

--have received regular bonuses, most recently a $3,500 bonus 2 weeks ago


The Money?

Yep. I like money. It, like, beats not having any, you know? I've gone through not having any, and while I survived, I found it distasteful. And being paid well for what I do, then receiving a big bonus on top of it, lets me know I am valuable to both my office and the company at large.

quote:

--live in a great house in a great neighborhood


Hmm... seems we're kinda back on the money track here, and what money buys.

Nice try, but a) I don't own my house, I rent it, and b) if you could see some the neighborhoods I've lived in, you'd understand my appreciation.

quote:

--have nearly everything I want, except for not having my student loans paid
off yet


And the structure of this sentence seems to imply that everything you want can be
bought, since the one thing you haven't bought yet is freedom from your debts.

You do have a learning disability, don't you? Admit it, come on. I imply no such thing, and the fact that you infer it is your problem, not mine. I incurred some $20,000 in student loan debt finishing college, and I'd like to pay it off. Kind of simple, really. Aside from that, I want for nothing, financially or otherwise.

quote:

--am happier than I've ever been in my life.


Because...? You have a good job that pays you enough money to buy all the "stuff" you
desire? (And a great relationship)

What, precisely, is your problem with the fact that I'm happy? Does it bother you somehow? Do I need to provide an elaborate list of reasons? Or are you too dense to understand that I was providing counterpoint to Adam's assertion that only those who sign away 10% of their paycheck to a church receive financial security?

Whatever floats your boat, certainly, but when you get to the end of your life, after
you've reflected upon your wonderful marriage,

Uh, at least I have one, thanks.

will the rest of it be:

"And we had lots of money and owned alot of stuff?"

Just suggesting a re-think...or maybe just a re-phrase.

Thanks, but I understood perfectly well what I meant, and I'm sure all the other nonretarded readers did, too.

Oh, and Adam? I know it gives you comfort or boosts your ego or whatever to believe that the fact that you read some really old book gives you special insight into the lives of complete strangers, but you're fooling yourself. No matter how special or superior it makes you feel, it's an illusion. You wouldn't know me or anyone else from the MB if you walked into us on the street, and certainly would have no insight into anything about us, so anything you think you know or see is a lie.

BTW, I have this book about a man with incredible powers. He can fly, and see through solid objects, and melt things with his eyes. It's called "Superman." And every word in it is absolutely true. I know it is, because I believe it is.

Ducks:

I wasn't "crapping" on anything, I was pointing out the way it came off. To me, obviously, since I have no way to know how it came off to others.

PL:

Yep, that would be it, I am retarded. Sheesh.

As it happens, with your further clarification, you and I are in similar circumstances, it seems. It just appeared to me that you were leaving out what *I* consider to be the most rewarding things in life. Friends, family, laughter, learning.

And what I consider a great job is all that I described. the only details you gave about the greatness of your job was the money you are making.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Pl says: [quote]Oh, and Adam? I know it gives you comfort or boosts your ego or whatever
to believe that the fact that you read some really old book gives you
special insight into the lives of complete strangers, but you're fooling
yourself. No matter how special or superior it makes you feel, it's an
illusion. You wouldn't know me or anyone else from the MB if you walked
into us on the street, and certainly would have no insight into anything
about us, so anything you think you know or see is a lie.[quote\]

Actually, my Bible is pretty new. I just got in last November. ;)

Pl, you've told me a tiny bit about yourself. You said you and your wife were born again Spirit filled Christians. And now it's clear that you're no longer serving God. Whatever "insight" I've had into your life is pretty obvious.

You also said, [quote]Show me something you can prove, kid[quote\]

Well PL, like I've said before, you are totally lacking faith. Can you prove to me that you love your wife? Can you prove to me that you're happy? You're an extremely intelligent man PL. Surely you understand that just because you can't prove something, doesn't mean it's imagined, or fake.

Adam

Thor
Member posted 07-01-99 04:21 PM
What I want to know is if there are any good biblical cites where jesus discusses a revocation of the 1st commandment. I know what he said about graven images on coins, but what about other religions?

He referred to the believers of those other religions as dogs. Here's what he said according to Matthew 15:21-28:

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

You will notice that he did say that he wasn't sent only to Israel but he waited until the Canaanite woman also referred to herself as a dog.

Pl, you've told me a tiny bit about yourself. You said you and your wife were born again
Spirit filled Christians. And now it's clear that you're no longer serving God. Whatever
"insight" I've had into your life is pretty obvious.

No, we no longer believe their is a god. (At least I don't; my wife is still undecided on the matter but has decided for herself that Christianity is self-evidently a big load of horseshit, and she was involved with the church for about 7 years more than I was.)

Anyway, your so-called "insight" is only real and valid given the proposition that your belief system is correct, a proposition that I do not accept and nor, I daresay, do the majority of people in the world. But go ahead living in your illusion. I'm sure it makes you feel good.

This thread takes WAAAAAAAY too long to load. If anyone has any more to say, start another thread. Or take it to email, I don't care.

SDStaff Lynn