US military in torture scandal

[Desmostylus]

US military in torture scandal
Use of private contractors in Iraqi jail interrogations highlighted by inquiry into abuse of prisoners
Julian Borger in Washington
Friday April 30, 2004
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html)

Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation.

The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon.

<snip>

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

<snip>

The killing of four private contractors in Falluja on March 31 led to the current siege of the city.

But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib.

Titan, based in San Diego, describes itself as a "a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security". It recently won a big contract for providing translation services to the US army.Way to go, Rumsfeld, you stupid asshole.

[Desmostylus]

Extra links:

Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed
CBS
April 29, 2004 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml)

Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.

But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.

It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report. NYTimes
G.I.'s Are Accused of Abusing Iraqi Captives
By JAMES RISEN
Published: April 29, 2004 (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/politics/29ABUS.html)

WASHINGTON, April 28 — American soldiers at a prison outside Baghdad have been accused of forcing Iraqi prisoners into acts of sexual humiliation and other abuses in order to make them talk, according to officials and others familiar with the charges.

The charges, first announced by the military in March, were documented by photographs taken by guards inside the prison, but were not described in detail until some of the pictures were made public.

[Brutus]

Way to go, Rumsfeld, you stupid asshole.

And Rummy gets the blame because...?

[jjimm]

Pre-emptive strike: "Just a few bad apples, doesn't reflect policy, proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla".

Anyone else think this gives more credence to the allegations of abuse from former Guantanamo prisoners?

[Brutus]

...Anyone else think this gives more credence to the allegations of abuse from former Guantanamo prisoners?

No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions.

[Typo Negative]

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other.

He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

My head is spinning.

"I asked them for the rules and regs, man. But I didn't get anything, so I sat on this guy an committed an indecent act."



:confused: :confused:

[jjimm]

No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions.Covered that already: "proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla".

It also shows the US Army is capable of sexual torture, which is one of the allegations about GITMO that was summarily dismissed here as propagandistic tinfoil hattery.

[Brutus]

Covered that already: "proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla".

It also shows the US Army is capable of sexual torture, which is one of the allegations about GITMO that was summarily dismissed here as propagandistic tinfoil hattery.

No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn't indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed?

[jjimm]

No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Did that one too, Brutus: "Just a few bad apples".

[Desmostylus]

And Rummy gets the blame because...?Sorry, should've made that more clear. It's Rummy's "new military", where non-core functions are out sourced to "civilian contractors", i.e., mercenaries, who are now apparently in charge of torturing prisoners.

[Brutus]

Did that one too, Brutus: "Just a few bad apples".

Congratulations. The fact that you listed three sensible points, then followed with a 'bla bla bla', does not negate those three points you know.

[jjimm]

You say 'sensible', I say 'knee-jerk'.

[Achilles]

No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn't indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed?

Gotta go with jjimm on this one. Brutus, you're being a little naive and gullible.

The US Army seems to be unable to police itself.

[Ale]

17 and a general all in the same prison seems like too many bad apples on a single bunch. YMMV

[Brutus]

Gotta go with jjimm on this one. Brutus, you're being a little naive and gullible.


Probably, but not regarding this issue. After all, if you were to discount the three sensible points that jjimm brings up, then you are left with, "The Army is a torture factory", which is obviously not true.


The US Army seems to be unable to police itself.

Sure it does. Actions in violation of the UCMJ may have occurred, and the Army is investigating, as they have done in the past. If the allegations are proven true, then some people are going to be cooling it in Leavenworth for a while. 'Policing itself' does not only mean that efforts will be made that certain actions will not occur; It also means that if they do occur, the Army will take care of those who committed them.

[yojimbo]

No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions.
Well no all it shows is that when wankers take photos and pass them around they get caught.

If these Iraqis had of got out of wherever they were and said that these things happened you'd be the first to dismiss them as anti-US properganda merchants. I don't think that all accusations should be just believed but it does show that these things are possibly happening.

The accusations from GITMO are stronger now IMO.

One thing is sure these pricks have handed the anti-US people a very large stick.

[yojimbo]

Propaganda

[jjimm]

Probably, but not regarding this issue. After all, if you were to discount the three sensible points that jjimm brings up, then you are left with, "The Army is a torture factory", which is obviously not true. Actually, of the three 'sensible' suggestions, the middle one: "not offical policy", is the one I, of course, do believe. Question is, how far up does the negligence extend? How much leeway is given by other senior officers at other detention facilities? How much tolerance of degradation and humiliation is there throughout all of the US's detention facilities? Is it even possible that this incident is wholly isolated, or is there the remotest chance that abuses may be several, if not widespread? Serious questions.

[Alessan]

No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn't indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed?

The thing is, the Army - any army - isn't just any group of people, it's a self-regulating, self-policing group of people, and it's organized to prevent things like this. Bad apples are indeed inevitable, but the military is supposed to have a system in place that prevents incidents like this. The fact that they happened is a bad sign from an organizational point of view.

[yojimbo]

And the fact that they had no training or backup from their commanding officers. Is this a single incident as well? How many other untrained unsupported people are guarding prisoners etc.?

[Spiny Norman]

No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions. If soldiers in the US Army are breaking the Geneva Conventions (and, by extension, the UCMJ) on orders from civilian contractors, it shows that command is breaking down. Brutus, try to get this through your skull: We're seeing the bad apples that were dumb enough to take photos of their handywork. I take it you're not claiming that there are no smart bad apples out there ?

It's fucking appalling. These assholes broke every rule in the book. They could just as well have wiped their ass with the uniform they are so manifestly unfit to wear. And the guy who whines about getting no "rules and regulations" is a reservist - he's an officer in a correctional facility in civilian life. Yeah, poor guy, how should he know how to run a prison ? I sure as hell hope he gets a chance to inspect Leavenworth from the inside, for a long, long time.

This'll do wonders to win hearts and minds. And my countrymen are out there as well - a big fat thanks for nothing from this pissed-off Dane. :mad:

[Balduran]

We like the idea of the honorable soldier, but sometimes it just isn't true. Those that aren't honorable can cause a lot of damage. Here in Canada, our entire airborne unit was disbanded because, among other things, the torture and beating to death of a youth in Somalia. This can happen to any country. It sucks when people use it as an excuse the bash an entire nation's military.

[Typo Negative]

Sure it does. Actions in violation of the UCMJ may have occurred, and the Army is investigating, as they have done in the past. If the allegations are proven true, then some people are going to be cooling it in Leavenworth for a while. 'Policing itself' does not only mean that efforts will be made that certain actions will not occur; It also means that if they do occur, the Army will take care of those who committed them.
But if some of those who commited these acts were not actually soldiers, but private contractors? Will the Army be able to bring them up on charges?

"It's insanity," said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors' free-ranging role. "These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?"

[jjimm]

Something else that gives me the feeling that there may be a lot more of this going on than Brutus reckons is that, according to CBS:The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commandersThus this is only being investigated because the torturers were damn fool enough to allow them to be photographed doing the torturing. How many other times has this happened without there being a camera present?

Reminder of some of the Guantanamo allegations (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=14042698_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-TERROR-OF-TORTURE-IN-CUBA-CAMP-name_page.html).

[Rayne Man]

The BBC is reporting an almost complete lack of reporting of this story in the US media , both print and broadcast, even though the original programme was shown two nights ago.

[Marley23]

It sucks when people use it as an excuse the bash an entire nation's military.
I don't think that's what's happening here. Everybody has acknowledged that this is surely not a common thing, but it's not supposed to happen at all, so they're asking if the setup of the current military in Iraq might have contributed to this.

[jjimm]

Hmm, on cable in Dublin we get CBS and it was the lead story last night. It's the first side article on the CNN site now.

[Jonathan Chance]

I'm more concerned about the pattern at this point.

Data 1. Accusations of torture in GITMO

Data 2. The stories about turtore of captive in Afghanistan two christmases ago

Data 3. New accusations (with evidence) of torture of captives in Iraq

If it was just rogue soldiers on a one-off situation I'd be less concerned. But with the established pattern I think it's time to look for a larger cause for this.

[yojimbo]

It's also on the front page of http://www.washingtonpost.com/

[Celyn]

.......
One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

........



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672901.stm

Ah, nobody mentioned it, so he (and others) jsut could not guess that this might not be a nice way to behave? It seems he was aware of the existence of the Geneva Convention though. Well, I hope that "defence" is not accepted.


.......
Deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers
.....


Well, I'm glad he is appalled: I think most of us are appalled. And Tony Blair thinks it is "regrettable" (OK, he is, apprently appalled too).

Regrettable??????? Heck, forgetting to send some far remote cousin a birthday card is "regrettable". Torturing prisioners needs a different description, but it's really hard to think of a suiable one right at this minute.


.......
Meanwhile, a new opinion poll for the New York Times and CBS News suggested dwindling support among Americans for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Only 47% of 1,042 Americans questioned believed invading Iraq was the right thing to do, the lowest support recorded in the polls since the war began

......


hmmm

[Celyn]

.......Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.
..........


http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

(Bolding mine). Well, the bits in bold would seem to cover it, and should be easier to remember than the average shopping list. Of course, they shoudl also be pretty obvious to any humanely moral person. :(

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

A quick look online at quarter of 9:00 EDT: cnn.com has it at the top of the side stories. The Boston Globe - boston.com - has local news at the top of the page but the story in its world news. Our fair and balanced foxnews.com hasn't any mention at all. Michael Jackson is SO much more important.

[jjimm]

Perhaps it's time to trot out lame legal excuse for mistreating prisoners #4: they were insurgents, and therefore 'illegal combatants' - thus they're not covered by the GC.

Great for salving guilty consciences; not quite so good for PR or humanity.

[Futile Gesture]

The BBC is reporting an almost complete lack of reporting of this story in the US media , both print and broadcast, even though the original programme was shown two nights ago.Most of the US papers listed in Google News are headlining something along the lines "Soldiers Blame Superiors". "Family Say Their Soldier Boy Is A Good Boy". "A Big Intelligence Officer Did It And Then Ran Away"

Looks like the buck is on its way up. It probably won't stop until it slips off the edge of Dubya's desk and into the wastepaper basket. After all, who's going to care about this come the elections???

[Brutus]

Most of the US papers listed in Google News are headlining something along the lines "Soldiers Blame Superiors". "Family Say Their Soldier Boy Is A Good Boy". "A Big Intelligence Officer Did It And Then Ran Away"


That is not really true, is it? (http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=us&q=cluster:quote%2ebloomberg%2ecom%2fapps%2fnews%3fpid%3d10000103%26sid%3dad4D4WKMEVs8%26refer%3dus) By my count, 1 out of 10 US headlines is along the lines you claim. 2 of 30, including foreign sources.

I would have thought that you would have been a bit more thorough after your last 'gaff'.

[RickJay]

Perhaps it's time to trot out lame legal excuse for mistreating prisoners #4: they were insurgents, and therefore 'illegal combatants' - thus they're not covered by the GC.
The ironic thing being that the "civilian contractors" are illegal combatants, too. Not that that stops the Bush administration from using them in droves. Maybe they figured that since they're specifically excluded from the protection of the Geneva Conventions, it was only fair. Or, umm, something like that.

As my father once told me, "Son, if you turn the lights on and see one rat, there's twenty."

[El Zagna]

There is no excuse for this. None. The people who did this are terrorists themselves, and the repercussion from this on our own captured men and women will be horrific.

Just when you think things can't get much worse in Iraq, just when you think America's standing in world opinion can't get any lower, we get this.

I am saddened beyond words.

[Gary Kumquat]

I'm now getting past disbelief to the point of sheer incredulity. Short of somehow managing to accidentally nuke an Iraqi hospital, can we actually botch this glorious liberation campaign up any worse?

[Futile Gesture]

That is not really true, is it? (http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=us&q=cluster:quote%2ebloomberg%2ecom%2fapps%2fnews%3fpid%3d10000103%26sid%3dad4D4WKMEVs8%26refer%3dus) By my count, 1 out of 10 US headlines is along the lines you claim. 2 of 30, including foreign sources.Sorry, but a reference to a page that is updated continuously doesn't really prove anything. Does it? Did you count all 599* listed? I certainly didn't. I just noted a general difference at the time I looked this morning.

My point was that the story is developing along certain lines. It'll be different again by the time you next look.

*No, don't bother checking, it'll be a different number by now.

[Celyn]

There is no excuse for this. None. The people who did this are terrorists themselves, and the repercussion from this on our own captured men and women will be horrific. .............


How horribly true, bnorton

They've put other people - notably their own comrades* - in danger.

They have made a bad enough flashpoint situation even worse

They have handed a propaganda coup to the other lot

Not only vicious, but stupid with it.


Words fail.


* and very probably a lot of other people too

[UrbanChic]

This came as no surprise to me. In fact, when I saw it on the news this morning, my husband and I were wondering what took so long to get the pictures to the media.

If you're shocked, you're naive. Very naive.

[Desmostylus]

Some of the milder photographs can be found here, at Mirror.co.uk:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=outrage-at-american-torture-of-iraqi-prisoners-name_page.html

[Dead Badger]

Sorry, but a reference to a page that is updated continuously doesn't really prove anything. Does it? Did you count all 599* listed? I certainly didn't. I just noted a general difference at the time I looked this morning.
If the reference is valid for you, it's valid for Brutus. As it happens, Google news goes backwards chronologically so all the stories remain - the most recent 60 stories go back to the 28th, of which by my count, five have headlines like you suggest. This isn't exactly surprising, since it's only now that the families are starting to be interviewed, and of course they're going to stand by their relatives.

Regarding the actual topic, from a broader perspective it really doesn't matter at this point whether the problems are endemic or isolated - as this thread somewhat indicates, people will believe what they're most inclined to, anyway. This almost certainly fucks any chance we ever had of sustaining popular opinion (or even grudging opinion) amongst Iraqis long enough to stabilise Iraq. This is possibly the worst thing that could have happened at this point, in ways much more important than how it affects the US political equation. :(

[Eva Luna]

"I asked them for the rules and regs, man. But I didn't get anything, so I sat on this guy an committed an indecent act."



Indeed, it boggles the mind. “My boss never specifically told me or gave me any printed rulebook that said I wasn’t supposed to beat people up and sexually assault them while they are defenseless, so I thought it was OK.” That’s what this schmuck is essentially saying.

A properly raised four-year-old knows better than that. Anyone who is mentally developed enough to understand the impact of torture or the humiliation of sexual assault should know that.

And if it’s true that soldiers are not specifically instructed that torture is wrong and illegal, then by all means they should be, and BEFORE they are sent into combat. But by no means does that excuse torture at any level of the chain of command. Anyone who is too stupid or sociopathic to know that torture is wrong does not belong in the military.

[Capt B. Phart]

Frankly it doesn't matter how this is playing in the US media or how many excuses get made - what matters is how this plays in Iraq and the Muslim world in general - and I think we can all guess how much this makes the Iraqis love their "liberators"

A British military spokesman is saying "this is the greatest recruiter the insurgents could possibly have" - a nasty nasty echo to me of how Bloody Sunday was the IRA's great recruiter

Look at the smug faces of those fucks in the photos they took of themselves - they are going to get a lot of people killed - Americans, Iraqis, Brits etc - thanks guys.


A few bad apples? Yup that's the whole point of the saying "it only takes one bad apple..."

I've seen too many examples of bad apples in Iraq; The point at which I found myself thinking "Shit, this might actually be un-winnable" was watching footage of a commander who'd obviously based himself on the same guy who appears as "Col Kilgore" in Apocalypse Now.
Big hat, big cigar, big balls, no fucking clue.
He and his men routinely humiliated the local Iraqis during their operations.
He said "I don't believe in celebrity gunfire" (turned out he meant "celebratory gunfire") so if he encountered Iraqis firing in the air in celebration - he ordered his men to shoot them.
"They don't do it twice" well no shit, fuckwit, but their brothers or friends are going to get RPGs and they won't be firing them in the air.


To all the shit-for-brains who say "::shrug:: this is war, this is the sort of thing that happens in any war" my answer is "pay attention, that is why so many of us were against having a war"


But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light.
The depths of stupidity this represents genuinley fucking frightens me

[ummm... yeahh...]

We like the idea of the honorable soldier, but sometimes it just isn't true. Those that aren't honorable can cause a lot of damage. Here in Canada, our entire airborne unit was disbanded because, among other things, the torture and beating to death of a youth in Somalia. This can happen to any country. It sucks when people use it as an excuse the bash an entire nation's military.

Probably the most sensible thing I've read so far. These freakin' dumbass soldiers are going to cause a lot of rage in the middle east (as if it wasn't bad enough already). I hope these soldiers understand how much harm they have done. I hate jackasses...

[Liberal]

A quick look online at quarter of 9:00 EDT: cnn.com has it at the top of the side stories. The Boston Globe - boston.com - has local news at the top of the page but the story in its world news. Our fair and balanced foxnews.com hasn't any mention at all. Michael Jackson is SO much more important.What's this, then, at the top of "Latest Headlines"?

"Arab TV Shows Iraq Prisoner Photos
Al-Jazeera said pics demonstrate 'immoral practices' of U.S. forces"

There's no need to pile lies on something that is already dreadful enough just for the purpose of making a trivial and stupid political jab.

[Marley23]

What's this, then, at the top of "Latest Headlines"?
Lib, he said he looked an hour ago. And at FOXnews.com (http://www.foxnews.com), the picture of Jacko is absolutely huge, while the Iraq headline is, like all those other stories, much smaller.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

What really bothers me is all the other soldiers watching and laughing and jeering while this shit was going on. That shows that this was not a "few bad apples" but that these prisons fostered a culture where this was acceptable. The whiny little bitch who's now trying to blame a "lack of training" wrote letters bragging about how quickly they could "break" prisoners. This was an institutional problem, not just a few isolated cases. Not one of those fucks who witnessed all that ever reported anything to command or seemed to see anything wrong with it.

This is a situation where the utmost attention should have been paid to how the prisons were regulated and administrated. It's critical to maintain a positive perception of US troops in Iraq and the US mission in general. It didn't take a genius to know that our treatment of prisoners was going to be of paramount importance in this regard. Those soldiers should have had clear and unequivocal instructions about what was and was not acceptable before they ever set foot in those prisons.

Has Rummy ever heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment, for fuck's sake? You can't just give a bunch of power to one random group of assholes over another one without regulating them up the ass and imposing severe sanctions for violating those regs.

If there had been no pictures, I fear that the military never would have done anything about this and the Bushistas would have dismissed any "stories" as lies and propaganda...just like they do with Gitmo.

[elucidator]

It couldn't be worse if we had tried. To add a little extra salt in the wounds, naked prisoners abused by female American soldiers. To a machismo infested society like one finds in the ME, this is a brilliant touch, almost genius, if it were in fact designed to inflame our enemies.

The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about "glory".

Go to war if you have absolutely no other choice. Any lesser standard is an abomination.

[yojimbo]

It's critical to maintain a positive perception of US troops in Iraq and the US mission in general. Not to do with the prison but it shows that this is not being done on many levels. Eyewitness: On the ground in Falluja (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3670587.stm) Mr Alani says that siege of the city and the shelling is just increasing support for the insurgents in the city.

"It's not a matter of whether I or anyone else in the city supports the 'resistance' to the Americans.

"I don't support them, but the way the Americans have dealt with and are dealing with this city makes me hate every American here, more and more."

"We are being driven to hate them - me and everyone else here."

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I wonder if we can all agree that the US should take the following steps:
1) A quick, strong, unambiguous, and sustained denunciation of this behavior.
2) A sincere and unambiguous apology to the tortured detainees from the President.
3) Significant reparations paid to the detainees (or their families), in line with what they could expect if this were a domestic scandal.
4) Transparent trials for the accused soldiers and mercenaries.
5) A sincere and transparent review of our prison program in Iraq, making whatever changes necessary to bring it at minimum to the levels specified in the Geneva Conventions, and preferably to a higher level than that.

My suggestions are based around the idea that we gotta stop giving recruitment propaganda to Al Qaeda. We have GOT to make it clear to the Arab street that we're a country that cares about human rights and that we will not tolerate such behavior.

What do y'all think of these five suggestions?

Daniel

[jjimm]

No prizes for guessing the most prominent news story over at Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.net/).

What a fucking cockup.

[Merijeek]

This came as no surprise to me. In fact, when I saw it on the news this morning, my husband and I were wondering what took so long to get the pictures to the media.

If you're shocked, you're naive. Very naive.

Juanita, you almost make it sound as if giving a bunch of people the power of life and death over inmates that have absolutely no rights would lead to a predictable conclusion!

As has been said, the only surprise here is that someone to take photos of his own crimes - not that the crimes were happening.

-Joe

[Liberal]

Lib, he said he looked an hour ago. And at FOXnews.com (http://www.foxnews.com), the picture of Jacko is absolutely huge, while the Iraq headline is, like all those other stories, much smaller.But that's the exact same situation that he described at CNN: "cnn.com has it at the top of the side stories". So why blast Fox when it's the same as CNN?

[World Eater]

I wonder if we can all agree that the US should take the following steps:
1) A quick, strong, unambiguous, and sustained denunciation of this behavior.
2) A sincere and unambiguous apology to the tortured detainees from the President.
3) Significant reparations paid to the detainees (or their families), in line with what they could expect if this were a domestic scandal.
4) Transparent trials for the accused soldiers and mercenaries.
5) A sincere and transparent review of our prison program in Iraq, making whatever changes necessary to bring it at minimum to the levels specified in the Geneva Conventions, and preferably to a higher level than that.

My suggestions are based around the idea that we gotta stop giving recruitment propaganda to Al Qaeda. We have GOT to make it clear to the Arab street that we're a country that cares about human rights and that we will not tolerate such behavior.

What do y'all think of these five suggestions?

Daniel

Makes sense, so it'll never happen. In fact, I predict almost the opposite will happen.

[Paul in Qatar]

This is sickening, just sickening. These soldiers should thank God I am retired and so will not serve on the Court-Martial.

[wireless]

I'm so sickened by this - both the inhumanity and the sheer stupidity (from a strategic standpoint) - that I almost don't want to know more. But that wouldn't be responsible, would it. So I have MSNBC (only cable news channel I can get) on the TV while I work.

Know what they're covering today?

Michael Jackson. It's like the f'ing Michael Jackson channel. Nothing else. Not even on the 1/2 hour AFAICT.

This just depresses me even more. It's not unpatriotic to talk about it, people! How can we address it, or find the truth (1 bad apple? systemic?) if it's not even covered?

I just don't know anymore.

[legion]

The BBC is reporting an almost complete lack of reporting of this story in the US media , both print and broadcast, even though the original programme was shown two nights ago.

The way I heard the BBC report it, they were reporting an almost complete lack of outrage about the story in the US media.

[SpazCat]

It's also on the front page of http://www.washingtonpost.com/

...as a smallish link under a sidebar headline about Fallujah. Apparently Michael Jackson's not guilty plea is more important than fucking war crimes. :mad:

[The Great Sun Jester]

Jeezus, get off the Michale jackson thing already or at least Pit each other someplace else. Some of us want to bitch about the disappointing behavior in the prison.

Does the UCMJ still allow for execution? Because Left Hand of Dorkness given what I know of Arab culture that's the only restitution acceptable to the victims & families & the Middle East at this point for these acts.

Execution would take care of Point 1
Point 2 would allow an Iraqi to do it...or maybe The President himself, he certainly has no compunction about killing Americans and Texans (no matter how ill-informed or mentally competent).
It is the ONLY way to address point 3. I wouldn't suggest offering monetary compensation to the Arab families/victims unless a severed head of an offender accompanies it.
Point 4 would be a 3 minute public square address for each offender with the gallows in the background.
Point 5 is impossible while the US is involved in the system in any way. We now proudly wear the "irredeemable" stigma and are no better than the dictator we deposed.

The above may be irrational. At this time, Inigo Montoya is not rational.

[shelbo]

Indeed, it boggles the mind. “My boss never specifically told me or gave me any printed rulebook that said I wasn’t supposed to beat people up and sexually assault them while they are defenseless, so I thought it was OK.” That’s what this schmuck is essentially saying.

Well, as DoC mentioned, it might turn out to be even worse than that -- these guys were trying to "soften up" the prisoners, so that they would "break". The actions were most likely encouraged by the inquisitors.

I'm now getting past disbelief to the point of sheer incredulity. Short of somehow managing to accidentally nuke an Iraqi hospital, can we actually botch this glorious liberation campaign up any worse?

It really does boggle the mind. I used to be of the opinion that, no matter how stupid it was to go into Iraq in the first place, it was imperative, both from a moral and practical perspective, to stay and finish the job, no matter the cost. Now I'm starting to think that we and they would be better off if we just left.

[Evil Captor]

My head is spinning.

"I asked them for the rules and regs, man. But I didn't get anything, so I sat on this guy an committed an indecent act."



:confused: :confused:

As Rommel said, "In the absence or orders, go find something, sit on it, and commit an indecent act."

[Shayna]

I am sickened beyond belief. Outraged. Terrified. Furious.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I used to be of the opinion that, no matter how stupid it was to go into Iraq in the first place, it was imperative, both from a moral and practical perspective, to stay and finish the job, no matter the cost. Now I'm starting to think that we and they would be better off if we just left.

That's damn scary, and until now the idea that we need to cut and run has been awful to me, obviously untrue. But at this point, I'm having real trouble imagining even a change in our administration being sufficient to slow the bloodshed.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a guy who runs a US prison in civilian life being involved in these actions. I hope that he's just acting out fantasies here in Iraq, things he always wanted to do back home but was prevented from doing by his prison's regulations. The alternative--that he was simply running the prison in the way he was accustomed--is even worse.

Daniel

[Evil Captor]

And if it’s true that soldiers are not specifically instructed that torture is wrong and illegal, then by all means they should be, and BEFORE they are sent into combat. But by no means does that excuse torture at any level of the chain of command. Anyone who is too stupid or sociopathic to know that torture is wrong does not belong in the military.

I think there are leaders in the U.S. military who think torture is just another tool of war. I never got any sense that the military was really all that repentant about the shit that was taught in the School of the Americas (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec99/sotamericas_9-21.html)

[Jonathan Chance]

I am sickened beyond belief. Outraged. Terrified. Furious.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

Yeah, I tried that when the Afghani torture stories broke. I got an acknowledgement letter from one of my Senator's and got added to Tom Delay's contribution list.

The system works.

[The Great Sun Jester]

And people here laughed at me. Who's laughing now? The evidence is on your TV screen. Might as well put "Free Iraqis" on the endangered species list!
Ya dolt. They were already on it! Are the prisoners in question common Iraqi civilians? Or are they combatants who might have information that could be extracted to prevent further bloodshed (needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, etc)? I disapprove of torture, wrong and all, you know. But I'm not the one needing the info either.... While this episode does show disregard for Iraqis and humanity in general, I still am not ready to make the leap of logic required to view this operation as the enthrall ment of a nation to the servitude of the US. i still don't buy that. I for one am still giggling. :wally

[Ogre]

I have never been a multilateralist by any means, as some of you know. However, this case appears cut and dried. These filthy, vile, evil bastards must be drummed out of the US military dishonorably, and then handed over to be tried under the Geneva Convention. What they've done is nothing less than a war crime and an atrocity.

They've sullied the name and reputation of the largely humane and honorable US military almost beyond immediate repair. People will be talking about this incident for decades. Full reparations to the prisoners and their families might help, but only a little. The specter of American military torture (not to mention incompetence. US soldiers under the command of CIVILIANS?! It beggars belief.) has been raised, and it will not go away any time soon.

Bastards.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

As of 3:00 p.m. EDT:

cnn.com has Bush's reaction as the top sidebar, while Michael Jackson gets prime billing.

boston.com (Boston Globe) has MJ as top item, then local Dem convention news, and no direct link on the front page.

foxnews.com gives MJ prime billing and links to the torture story as one of eight "latest headline" links.

bostonherald.com, thank Og, is MJ-free but is all local on the front page.

The New York Times webpage has the Fallujah deal as the top story, the torture story second.

Are you happy now, Lib? Dickhead.

[The Great Sun Jester]

As of 3:00 p.m. EDT:

cnn.com has Bush's reaction as the top sidebar, while Michael Jackson gets prime billing.

boston.com (Boston Globe) has MJ as top item, then local Dem convention news, and no direct link on the front page.

foxnews.com gives MJ prime billing and links to the torture story as one of eight "latest headline" links.

bostonherald.com, thank Og, is MJ-free but is all local on the front page.

The New York Times webpage has the Fallujah deal as the top story, the torture story second.

This is not surprising :crinkle crinkle: since it is well known that Bush Enterprises has siezed control of the mental novacaine that is the US media, given it the strawman name "liberal media" (which moniker is debunked by Al Franken) to give the illusion that it is out to smear the GOP, and has been controlling the flow and spin of our info ever since.
(where's my ketchup?...ah, here we go :squirt: )
:dons foil hat:

Now, please, unless it has to do with torturing the evil and much maligned Iraqis shush about it.

[Shayna]

Yeah, I tried that when the Afghani torture stories broke. I got an acknowledgement letter from one of my Senator's and got added to Tom Delay's contribution list.

The system works.
That pisses me off. What jackasses. :mad:

However, I don't feel like I have any choice but to do it anyway. We have to be vocal about this. We just have to. So I am calling and writing every one of my representatives and begging them to move heaven and earth to get our military the fuck out of Iraq NOW. Those poor people. Can you even begin to imagine the uprising that would happen if a foreign military occupied our country with armed soldiers patroling the streets and then torturing and humiliating the prisoners they took along the way? HOLY FUCK! This madness MUST BE STOPPED.

Iraq was not the imminent threat to the United States that was claimed a year ago.

They are now.

Absofuckinglutely unfuckingbelieveable.

:mad:

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Well, one could posit that the cruellest torture of all would be to subject the Iraqis to 24/7 Michael Jackson media coverage, but somehow I'm not feeling up to such jokes. Looking at the photos on the linked sites is sickening and horrifying. Looking at the smug faces of the torturers makes me want to smash them. Contemplating how this further degrades the US in the eyes of the world, and puts our citizens in and out of uniform at even greater risk, infuriates me.

And, of course, this has taken place in Saddam Hussein's torture prison. :rolleyes: How much more symbolic can it get??

You got any tinfoil and ketchup left?

[Miller]

This is not surprising :crinkle crinkle: since it is well known that Bush Enterprises has siezed control of the mental novacaine that is the US media, given it the strawman name "liberal media" (which moniker is debunked by Al Franken) to give the illusion that it is out to smear the GOP, and has been controlling the flow and spin of our info ever since.
(where's my ketchup?...ah, here we go :squirt: )
:dons foil hat:

Now, please, unless it has to do with torturing the evil and much maligned Iraqis shush about it.

Unless that tin foil hat says "Mod" on it, it's not your place to tell other posters what they may or may not post about.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Unless that tin foil hat says "Mod" on it, it's not your place to tell other posters what they may or may not post about.
Ooops. Didn't mean to come off as a Jr. Mod. My bad. Just whining.

[kaylasdad99]

The Master speaks (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_121a.html) on the subject of what ketchup doea to alumium foil.

I note that he discusses aluminum, and not tin, foil.

I further note that he does not provide any data as to how hat functionality is affected.

[Zakalwe]

“A year ago I did give the speech from the carrier saying we had achieved an important objective, accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein,” Bush said.

“As a result, there are no longer torture chambers or mass graves or rape rooms in Iraq,” the president said.
From here (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4871021/) - emphasis added.

The irony is stunning.

[Capt B. Phart]

Now there are pictures of British troops mistreating a prisoner being shown on UK TV - including pissing on him (Not confirmed real yet - not many details)

Fuck it - I'm going to wrap my entire body in tinfoil and listen to Micheal Jackson tunes 'til my brain goes numb.

Fuck-it and Double-Fuck-it

[Shayna]

Now there are pictures of British troops mistreating a prisoner being shown on UK TV - including pissing on him (Not confirmed real yet - not many details)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

:(

[The Great Sun Jester]

OK, now it's time for a tin foil party. Get a load of the name of the UK general Chief of Staff.

That's right. Michael Jackson.

[capacitor]

This allged torture by the contractors might have triggered the mutilated four incident in Fallujah.

[wring]

This allged torture by the contractors might have triggered the mutilated four incident in Fallujah.
that would assume that the Iraqis would have had some way of knowing what was going on in there. With the language barrier and security issues, I have doubts that there would have been any way for that info to have gotten out to the Iraqi people.

FIrst thing I recalled when hearing this story was the Outrage that the Americans expressed when tape of our prisoners was shown "prisoners of war should not be photographed like that" etc. then of course, we showed pictures of Saddam's dead sons (oh, but it was necessary to prove that they were dead), video tape of Saddams' capture etc (necessary to prove he was captured and treated humanely if disrespectively). now this. The moral high ground isn't ours. and the sorry excuse of "I didn't receive adequate training" (in order to know not to torture and make sport of prisoners) is exceedingly lame.

I like Dorkness' list, but also doubt that it will be implimented.

[Capt B. Phart]

The British photos are even more proof! Blair is in on the deal to expand America because it means the UK will get the lionshare of the trading profits! I'll never doubt my instincts again!
There's just one tiny flaw in your theory that this is all part of a plot to colonise Iraq - the fact that these incidents will make it all but impossible for the US to maintain any control, or even maintain any presence, in Iraq - uniting the whole country in hatred for the occupation isn't Evil Genius - it's just plain stupid

[Silver Serpentine]

(Sorry, but I didn't read the entire thread. I'm fighting a reboot monster on my computer, and I wanted to post before I got booted again).



I have part of an article about an investigation that happened a few years ago. In this investigation, 150 honorable discharged and decorated veterans told stories about what had happened in Asia. "These were not isolated incidents, but crimes commited on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. ... They told stories that they had at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable phones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam. .... They relived the absolute horror of whatthis country, in a sense, had made them do."

So, this certainly isn't a new development for the US military. It's just that none of these guys took pictures.

[drewbert]

What do y'all think of these five suggestions?
6) A promise from the President that Heads. Will. Roll.

(it won't happen, of course)

[Capt B. Phart]

that would assume that the Iraqis would have had some way of knowing what was going on in there. With the language barrier and security issues, I have doubts that there would have been any way for that info to have gotten out to the Iraqi people.





An Iraqi blogger
We've been hearing terrible stories about Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad for a while now, but those pictures somehow spoke like no words could.
From a link Squink posted in GD (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108335179421604212)

[Apos]

The British have been shaking their heads for months at how utterly unprepared we have been for this task, how sloppy we are, how poorly trained. People begged for just a few weeks more time to draw up a plan for the occupation. People made plans that were ignored. Generals requested more and better troops. Planners raised hel about not having properly trained personnel or equipment. All of this was ignored, and as far as I can tell, mostly out of both hubris and utter disdain for both the military and experts who hadn't pledged eternal loyalty to the administration.

This is but a tiny example of what can go wrong when you don't know what the hell you are doing. Priority number 1 in prisons should have been that America never get subjected to this sort of propaganda boon for our enemies, never allow any situation with our personnel to run around without supervision, proper training, and oversight. People knew what was at stake, or should have.

On a side note: anyone think that one of the torturers looks sort of like that glasses wearing balding guy from MTV with slicked hair that used to smoke and drive a taxicab?

[Balduran]

The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about "glory".

Great post. I agree on all counts. The Americans and British are nowhere near the level of indiscriminate bombing the Russians were doing in Grozny. I also believe the incidents of torture are probably on the low level that occur in wars. But the coalition is really under a microscope here, they must be seen to quickly unleash the wrath of god on all responsible, up and down the chain of command, to save credibility in Iraq.

Unfortunately these things usually take a long time, there are lots of places in the chain of command for it to get bottlenecked as everybody is trying to save their own asses.

It was pretty pathetic during our Somalia inquiry how the kept trying to blame it all on the anti-malarial drug Methloquine. It does have some psychoactive properties, but it certainly doesn't turn people into killers. The pass the buck strategy certainly isn't unique to the American military.

Another scandal in the Canadian military occured in Bosnia. Some soldiers were responsible for protecting a mental institute. There were pictures of the big heroes on our front pages. It later sufaced that some of them were having sex with the staff (possibly coerced) and abusing the patients.

[Cervaise]

And people here laughed at me. Who's laughing now?Even amid the shock and horror of these utterly appalling developments, Johnny G, rest assured that you are still a source of comedy. Indeed, in this thread, you are the only source of comedy. Please, sir, bear your burden with honor.

[Apos]

Oops: so much me lending any creedence to British scoffing: photos have surfaced of the same sorts of things among British troops.

[gum]

I bet that if you search long enough, you'll find photos of soldiers of every damn country, humiliating prisoners. Maybe it has to do with the tension they live in. Most soldiers can handle it, others go berserk and show off in front of their fellow soldiers.

I don't condone it. It makes me ill, but I imagine it happens more than we believe. Sadly, the photos will make their way to the Iraqi papers. It's a shame that some lunatics will have such an impact on the already far from friendly feelings of the people of Iraq.

[Triskadecamus]

It is only the overwhelming shame of an entire nation that can redeem us from this point on.

We, the evil empire, must withdraw at once, and let street thugs, and active criminals take over Iraq, since it is now obvious that they are our moral superiors.

By just what mental gymnastics is George Bush not obviously guilty of crimes against humanity?

I am deeply ashamed of my country.

End this war, now!

Tris

[New Iskander]

I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?

What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity?

What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people!

Don't Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps?

Wouldn't that be the real Justice?

[Shayna]

I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?
They're human beings. Their identity is irrelevant. What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity? No. First of all, I'm not G-d, so I have no control over eternity. Second of all, you don't condemn him out of one side of your mouth and then perpetrate the same crimes he did out of the other. That makes you a hypocrite and an asshole. What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people! See above. Not to mention that there are laws against this sort of treatment of prisoners of war. Don't Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps?

Wouldn't that be the real Justice? No, that would be barbaric. What kind of monster are you that you would advocate that kind of cruelty?

[kung fu lola]

We, the evil empire, must withdraw at once, and let street thugs, and active criminals take over Iraq, since it is now obvious that they are our moral superiors.

This is the most beautiful scarecrow I've ever seen. Mind if I put it by my grain? I've been having a crow problem lately.

It is possible for everyone in this situation to be morally bankrupt, Tris.

Personally, I don't care who runs Iraq, as long as they are democratically elected, and yes that includes street thugs. Us Canadians elected a thief, and we love him. Back to Iraq, why don't we beat some swords into ballot boxes, then we're off the hook.

[pepperlandgirl]

Some of the milder photographs can be found here, at Mirror.co.uk:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=outrage-at-american-torture-of-iraqi-prisoners-name_page.html


Oh my god.

I don't know why, but the first picture in that link is probably one of the most revolting things I've ever seen. My stomach is just rolling...I think it might give me nightmares. I don't know why that picture out of all of them affected me so much, but the bile is rising in my throat.

I'm not shocked, but I'm so disappointed and angry that I have tears in my eyes. Every military in every country might have as bad or worse pictures as somebody else in the thread pointed out, but by god, that's no excuse...my god, what is wrong with us?

[Apos]

I bet that if you search long enough, you'll find photos of soldiers of every damn country, humiliating prisoners. Maybe it has to do with the tension they live in. Most soldiers can handle it, others go berserk and show off in front of their fellow soldiers.

I'm sure you can. But then, these people don't look to be under much tension. They look like kids with their own personal fantasyland of amusements.

And frankly, there is bound to be something of a culture of superiority and triumphalism here, and certianly the way we do interrogations of these sorts of people is basically: "let's fuck around with these people as much as possible without actually leaving any marks on them." It's a culture in which you must feel like you can just fuck around with the prisoners for jollies, try out new things, etc. Time and time again experiments have shown that even normal people become cruel when set to watch over prisoners: which is precisely why safeguards, observation, record keeping, and so on needs to exist to prevent abuse. But they apparently didn't exist here.

Whether some of these prisoners are the scum of the earth is beside the point. The soldiers and mercs involved had no way to know if the charges against these people were true, or even if they were just cases of mistaken identity or petty crimes. And even if they weren't, even if you are all for giving to them what's coming to them: stop and think about the acts of defilement and humiliation that are insulting to Muslims in general, no matter who they are or how much they deserve other sorts of punishment that don't simultaneously demean all humanity.

[blowero]

I read that most of the prisoners were there for shooting at U.S. forces, which would make them simply POWs.

[Cerri]

I read that most of the prisoners were there for shooting at U.S. forces, which would make them simply POWs.


If you have a cite for that, I'd be interested in reading it.

According to an interview with Seymour Hersh, an investigative reporter for the New Yorker magazine, in a Today interview with Katie Couric, a large number of the people in that prison are just civilian detainees.

Which of course, doesn't necessarily mean they were NOT enemy combatants, but what I've read and yours doesn't match up, and my dad always used to tell me that between two "sides" of the truth, the real truth usually lay somewhere in the middle.

It was in interesting interview...click on the video link on this page (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4871554/) to view it yourself. The interview also features the lawyer and uncle of one of the six soldiers accused.

[Desmostylus]

If you have a cite for that, I'd be interested in reading it.The NYT did a story about the prisoners back in March. As U.S. Detains 10,000 Iraqis, Families Plead for News
By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN
March 7, 2004 (http://www.peaceuk.co.uk/archive/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=977)

Iraq has a new generation of missing men. But instead of ending up in mass graves or at the bottom of the Tigris River, as they often did during the rule of Saddam Hussein, they are detained somewhere in American jails.

Although the insurgency has cooled, with suicide attacks against civilians now eclipsing armed clashes with American troops, American forces are still conducting daily raids, bursting into homes and sweeping up families. More than 10,000 men and boys are in custody. According to a detainee database maintained by the military, the oldest prisoner is 75, the youngest 11.

Military officials say some of the detainees have been accused of serious offenses, including shooting down helicopters and planting roadside bombs.

But the officials acknowledge that most of the people captured are probably not dangerous. Of a recent batch of cases reviewed by military judges, they recommended that 963 of 1,166 detainees be released.

[Mr. Svinlesha]

elucidator:But no one is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about "glory".

Go to war if you have absolutely no other choice. Any lesser standard is an abomination.

Amen.

[Mr. Svinlesha]

New Iskander: I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?

What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity?

What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people!

Don't Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps?

Wouldn't that be the real Justice?Why am I not surprised to read such loathsome sentiments come slithering out of your ugly pie-hole?

I’ve met slugs with more a profound moral sense than yours.

[devilsknew]

Apropo and in a similar vein, to anyone interested, I would reccommend reading the recent Pulitzer Prize winning investigative series by The Toledo Blade about American atrocities in the Vietnam War entitled Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE) ].

Although this Iraqi case is not exactly a My Lai, I would still characterize it as an atrocity and endemic to our armed forces, past and present.

And History repeats and history haunts, and history repeats....

[Dead Badger]

One thing that confused me was a quote in this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3675479.stm) BBC article today, from a Washington Post guy on why he thinks the coverage of the allegations is muted in the States:
Mr Kurtz said that one possible explanation as to why the story was not receiving greater coverage in the US was that Democrats, the party in opposition, were not making the allegations an issue.

"We, in the media, are a little hesitant to start the debate ourselves, but if some member of the Democratic Party were to start a debate over this, we would be on it in a flash," Mr Kurtz said.
Being in the UK, I don't really know if this could be true - is it really the case that the US media will only really run with something once it's become a partisan pissing contest? Is something only news once it's political?

[Typo Negative]

"We, in the media, are a little hesitant to start the debate ourselves, but if some member of the Democratic Party were to start a debate over this, we would be on it in a flash," Mr Kurtz said.
"Yeah, we in the media will never break a story until the oppostion party decides they want to make it an issue, and then we're all over that puppy."

Utter hogwash.

[Desmostylus]

I don't know why, but the first picture in that link is probably one of the most revolting things I've ever seen. My stomach is just rolling...I think it might give me nightmares. I don't know why that picture out of all of them affected me so much, but the bile is rising in my throat. It is a particularly striking image.

At a guess, it strikes a chord because it has a robed figure with open arms and bare feet, which is similar to many depictions of Christ in paintings and statues that you've seen. The wires show torture, which compounds the effect.

Add in a black Klan hood, and there you have a really disturbing portrait.

[New Iskander]

The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about "glory".Just go through the photos one more time, take a fresh look. They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail. They are nowhere close to Rodney King beating tape, nowhere close to Grannies in handcuffs, nowhere close to a squad of police officers dispatching a retarded person for being slow in following orders in a barrage of fire... nowhere close to many things that happen in our own country and in our own prisons. Wanna say something about "brutalizing effects of" Peace?

And I really wish it was Saddam in a picture with his extremities wired.

[Capt B. Phart]

They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail. They are nowhere close to Rodney King beating tape.........


From here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/30/international0956EDT0523.DTL)

A U.S. Army report obtained by The New Yorker magazine said Iraqi detainees were subjected to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

Those abuses included pouring phosphoric liquid from chemical lights on detainees, pouring cold water on naked detainees and threats of rape, said the internal report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.

Detainees were beaten with a broom handle and one was sodomized with "a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick," the report said, according to the magazine.

The report was based on "detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence," The New Yorker said in its May 10 issue.

From here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm)

They allege during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed......

After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead.

Can we stop pretending now? This really isn't going well

[New Iskander]

Can we stop pretending now? This really isn't going wellNo, it's not going well at all.

Your first cite doesn't contain a quote that you followed with. Did you make this quote up?

Your second cite describes an isolated incident, concerning a single man. He might have been mistreated. He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him.

[New Iskander]

Why am I not surprised to read such loathsome sentiments come slithering out of your ugly pie-hole?

I’ve met slugs with more a profound moral sense than yours.So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?

Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.

[Shayna]

So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?
Why yes, yes it does. Finally, something intelligent coming out of your ugly pie-hole.Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.
No, you sadistic fuck, it means we're on the side of HUMANITY. WE don't stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them.

What a goddamn idiot you are.

[elfbabe]

Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.

Gosh, they're ALL mass murderers? I wish we could get this kind of pinpoint accuracy in domestic affairs. Just imagine! No more doubts! No more trials! No more lawyers! No more innocents being wrongfully imprisoned or guilty being released! Give it enough time, and America would become a perfect utopia, free of crime and hate! Why didn't anyone think of this before?

[Capt B. Phart]

No, it's not going well at all.

Your first cite doesn't contain a quote that you followed with. Did you make this quote up?

Your second cite describes an isolated incident, concerning a single man. He might have been mistreated. He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him.

Correct link (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/01/international0425EDT0440.DTL)
(why do you think I would make this shit up? )

Isolated incident? Your bloodthirsty reaction alone suggests otherwise, plus other allegations are being investigated against these same "rogue elements" and others

Frankly it doesn't matter - even the most moderate Iraqi now feels the same way you would if this had been Arab troops in the US doing these things to Americans. Gonna tell me you'd shrug that off?

He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him.
An alleged thief gets pissed on, his jaw broken, teeth shattered, left for dead.
- Is that how you'd like law-enforcement done in your town? (I suspect you probably would)

[elucidator]

So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?

Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.

Wow. I didn't realize this level of contempt existed. I need to take a shower. Read some Dickinson, maybe. Kind of re-align, recalibrate.

My inherent trust in mankind moves me to suggest you reconsider, New Ish, and apologize. You're entirely out of line with that, even for the pit. No body not on medication truly believes that Big Svin, or anyone else here, for that matter, stands on the side of mass-murderers.

You are wrong. Dreadfully wrong. Stop it.

[kung fu lola]

We're not just pulling this out of our ass, you know (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm).

( from Article 13) "prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited."

(from Article 14)"Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour."

(from Article 17) "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. "

[Mr. Svinlesha]

New Iskander: So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?Yes, you shit-for-brains useless excuse for human excrement.

Perhaps you’ve forgotten that the US supposedly invaded Iraq to put an end to Saddam’s human rights violations, not commit more of them. And as for “torturers and murderers,” you have yourself no clue who those poor people were. Not that it matters to you, apparently.[QUOTE] Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.[QUOTE]Right. You condone this sort of conduct, and then accuse me of standing on the side of “mass murderers.”

Truly, you are a contemptible little turdwad.

[New Iskander]

No, you sadistic fuck, it means we're on the side of HUMANITY. WE don't stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them.Allow me to congratulate you on discovering a 'slippery slope' principle. That is a major intellectual accomplishment, indeed. However, I must inform you that some other people have discovered it long time ago already. I am not saying what we should do, the proper authorities seem to be taking care of that just fine. I am only saying what I wish to see done to Saddam and his henchmen, in return for everything they have done to many innocent people. In short, I am venting. And I find it very disturbing that my venting is what considered a real crime here.

[New Iskander]

Isolated incident? Your bloodthirsty reaction alone suggests otherwise...What is my idle desire to see Saddam's extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops?

Considering the proper link: "threats of rape, beating and sodomizing prisoners with a broom handle", and Bush is saying, that is "not the way we do things in America"? Didn't we see similar things inside US many times?

And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse.

[El_Kabong]

Shocking, yes, but just another log on the firein the long run, considering that there was never any coherent rationale for invading Iraq in the first place.

I'm with some others here in that my first reaction to the revelation of torture and brutalization of prisoners in Iraq was "Is anyone really surprised by this?" That, of course, does nothing to negate just how utterly disgusting was the behavior of the personnel involved. The only acceptable outcome, I believe, is public identification of the perpetrators, vigorous prosecution for war crimes, and profuse apologies from military and administration officials at the highest level. Given that the administration, and the President himself, seems to follow a dictum I've seen attributed to Nixon, "Never apologize, never explain", I won't hold my breath waiting for such an outcome.

Oh, and New Iskander, perhaps you are unaware of this, but you are presenting yourself as a bit of an asshole.

[New Iskander]

You are wrong. Dreadfully wrong. Stop it.This coming from a staunch advocate of an 'eye-for-an-eye' principle of Justice.

Didn't you express a wish for Powell to go the UN and recite his WMD presentation bewailing his own alleged cluelessness?

Didn't you express a wish for Kissinger to be given out to the Kurds for all the wrongs he has allegedly done to them?

How is that different from my wish to see Saddam and his henchmen to go through the same Hell that their victims went through?

Is it my fault that Mr. S. reacting so strangely to my simple wish?

[New Iskander]

And as for “torturers and murderers,” you have yourself no clue who those poor people were. Not that it matters to you, apparently.What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US?

[New Iskander]

The only acceptable outcome, I believe, is public identification of the perpetrators, vigorous prosecution for war crimes, and profuse apologies from military and administration officials at the highest level. Given that the administration, and the President himself, seems to follow a dictum I've seen attributed to Nixon, "Never apologize, never explain", I won't hold my breath waiting for such an outcome.Are you concluded? Good! Now go read the morning papers, you might find some of your wishes have come true already.

[Revtim]

What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US?
We should be dealing justice, not revenge. Regardless of who the prisoner is.

[Capt B. Phart]

What is my idle desire to see Saddam's extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops?

No fuckwit, it's your ablitiy to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his "henchmen") into

Considering the proper link: "threats of rape, beating and sodomizing prisoners with a broom handle", and Bush is saying, that is "not the way we do things in America"? Didn't we see similar things inside US many times?

And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse.[/QUOTE]

[ElvisL1ves]

So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?

If you commit torture and murder, then you're a torturer and murderer. If you only wish torture and murder be committed by someone else but don't have the balls to actually do it yourself, you're a coward. Clear now?

Either way, what basis is left for you to claim you're any better than Saddam? Your defense of "I was only wishing"?

No invective from me here; you're not worth it.

[Capt B. Phart]

Gah - Shit, how did that happen? Any ways:-

No fuckwit, it's your ability to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his "henchmen") into excusing attacks on a different set of people

Didn't we see similar things inside US many times?

Oh yes, I see now, that makes it all fine - I'm sure the Iraqis will take that into account

And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse.
First, it's just a possibility, and a slim one - and how much worse would you like to see it get?

[Mr. Svinlesha]

New Iskander: What is my idle desire to see Saddam's extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops?No, you lousy weasel. You are clearly attempting to defend these acts by implying that the person on the receiving end deserved it. You may want to pretend that your last couple of posts were an expression of “idle desire;” but, since these events have in fact happened, we are not dealing with “idle desires” here. What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten.Wrong as usual.

Go here (http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow).

(Warning: graphic images.)What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US? Does that woman being forced to perform fellation look like one of Saddam’s henchmen to you, you pathetic little toad?

[Marley23]

So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an "ugly pie-hole" and negates my moral sense?
What's the saying? Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while?

How is that different from my wish to see Saddam and his henchmen to go through the same Hell that their victims went through?[/qute]
Because one was diplomatic (Powell eating a little crow) and the other was hypothetical, as opposed to real torture?

[quote]What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified.
Saddam would say the same thing if we had photos of his torture chambers or mass graves- they deserved it, they were criminals, etc. Understand yet, fuckhead? There are legal ways to interrogate people and get information from POWs, there is a code of conduct. (Sleep deprivation is allowed, for example, as is forcing them to stand for long periods of time.) I'll bet you anything that pissing on people and mock executions are not included.

[elucidator]

This coming from a staunch advocate of an 'eye-for-an-eye' principle of Justice.

Not so. I consider such tribal forms of crude justice barbaric. Civilized persons aim higher. Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.

Didn't you express a wish for Powell to go the UN and recite his WMD presentation bewailing his own alleged cluelessness?

Indeed. Still do. Think it would do him a world of good, perhaps even recover the dignity he has whored. It's called "penance". Look it up. Meditate on it.

Didn't you express a wish for Kissinger to be given out to the Kurds for all the wrongs he has allegedly done to them?

I suggested they might find such a droll bit of irony delectable. They very well might. I don't recall any shock and outrage expressed by you at the time. Have you been keeping it all pent up, lo, these many months? Poor fellow.

How is that different from my wish to see Saddam and his henchmen to go through the same Hell that their victims went through?

Night and day. Heaven and Earth. Buddha and Mengele. A lot, really.

Is it my fault that Mr. S. reacting so strangely to my simple wish?

Nothing strange about it. He's right, and you're full of shit.

[Apos]

"Yeah, we in the media will never break a story until the oppostion party decides they want to make it an issue, and then we're all over that puppy."

Utter hogwash.

No, not really. The media tends to run in a herd, since it's mostly following ratings, not an agenda. In many cases in recent memory, obvious scandals have not been major news until someone worked to make them news. That's not to say that there aren't lots of reporters running around looking for a juicy story, but to get national recognition a story often has to be a pre-made controversy with good yelling to get some good selling.

The Trent Lott thing, for instance, was an obvious target for a Democratic scandal. But the Democrats mostly left it alone, knowing that Lott was better than someone new in his place. It was the right wing blogs that first tlaked up the stories, and a few right wing figures that broke it into the mainstream.

[TwistofFate]

I'm saddened beyond belief by your attitude, New Iskander. there is no defence for these acts.

[Apos]

According to Seymour Hersh, the Army's own investigation seems to say that this is more than just a couple of bad eggs:

As the international furor grew, senior military officers, and President Bush, insisted that the actions of a few did not reflect the conduct of the military as a whole. Taguba’s report, however, amounts to an unsparing study of collective wrongdoing and the failure of Army leadership at the highest levels. The picture he draws of Abu Ghraib is one in which Army regulations and the Geneva conventions were routinely violated, and in which much of the day-to-day management of the prisoners was abdicated to Army military-intelligence units and civilian contract employees. Interrogating prisoners and getting intelligence, including by intimidation and torture, was the priority.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[ElvisL1ves]

It's hard to believe that anyone could be so stupid as to even take pictures of this, not even the ones of the woman being orally raped by US soldiers. That makes me wonder if there has been a lot more going on that no pictures were taken of - am I off base with that?

Even if not, it may no longer be possible to convince "the Arab street" that our intentions are benevolent. It's over, and the only questions left are the how and when of the US withdrawal, not the whether.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, meet Lt. William Calley. I'm sure you two have a lot to talk about.

[Apos]

Something from that article about the Army's investigation: one of the accused torturers alleges that the CIA basically interrograted a man to death (cardiac arrest? it's not clear), put his body on ice, and the next day faked his "natural" death with a phony IV after which they wheeled his body away without processing him officially as being someone in their custody.

As the article says, this is certainly from a man who has every reason to blame higher ups. But he's making a lot of statements that could be easily disproven if they were lies. Why? By and large these "bad eggs" are all saying that military intelligence people told them to do this, that they were the controlling authority. One of the accused even says that when he raised doubts about whether what they were doing was permissible, they were told that MI has, omninously, "different rules."

Then there's this, from a man who isn't being accused of anything:

Another witness, Specialist Jason Kennel, who was not accused of wrongdoing, said, “I saw them nude, but MI would tell us to take away their mattresses, sheets, and clothes.” (It was his view, he added, that if M.I. wanted him to do this “they needed to give me paperwork.”) Taguba also cited an interview with Adel L. Nakhla, a translator who was an employee of Titan, a civilian contractor. He told of one night when a “bunch of people from MI” watched as a group of handcuffed and shackled inmates were subjected to abuse by Graner and Frederick.

So this sounds like it's more than a few bad eggs. It's sounds like our policy on how to break people. And really, it isn't too many steps removed from the sorts of methods MI has openly credited with producing results for them.

To those that suggest that our efforts in Iraq have been getting everything they need to suceed, well:

General Taguba further found that Abu Ghraib was filled beyond capacity, and that the M.P. guard force was significantly undermanned and short of resources. “This imbalance has contributed to the poor living conditions, escapes, and accountability lapses,” he wrote. There were gross differences, Taguba said, between the actual number of prisoners on hand and the number officially recorded. A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detained—indefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski’s defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers “routinely” rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners.

To those that claim that the Army was already investigating and dealing with the problem on its own, and so the release of the info and photos was purely to hurt America:

No criminal proceedings were suggested for Karpinski; apparently, the loss of promotion and the indignity of a public rebuke were seen as enough punishment.

This for abuses ranging from murder to rape to beatings to gross violations of human dignity and insults to the religious beliefs of the occupied country.

And in general, it seems our detention proceedures violated the Geneva convention:

Under the fourth Geneva convention, an occupying power can jail civilians who pose an “imperative” security threat, but it must establish a regular procedure for insuring that only civilians who remain a genuine security threat be kept imprisoned. Prisoners have the right to appeal any internment decision and have their cases reviewed. Human Rights Watch complained to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld that civilians in Iraq remained in custody month after month with no charges brought against them.

Sound familiar? Now, if there were special security needs which required us to void the Geneva convention, then at least we should have annnounced this openly. But first of all, we didn't do that. Secondly, we don't appear to have done this for special security reasons, but because of lack of manpower, laziness, and simple ignoring of our responsibilities on a large scale.

The article also notes that the current investigation is considering whether a previous investigation into similar charges in Afghanistan was basically a whitewash.

[New Iskander]

Either way, what basis is left for you to claim you're any better than Saddam? Your defense of "I was only wishing"?Wow. Talk about disconnect. My basis to claim a moral superiority over Saddam is that I am a law-obiding citizen, who never done any harm to anybody, and he is 'mass murdering piece of shit'. Clear now?

[New Iskander]

No fuckwit, it's your ability to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his "henchmen") into excusing attacks on a different set of people I was not excusing anything, I said that I found it remarkable that nobody here realized that there were people in Saddam Iraq who deserved all that and much worse, interms of simple Justice. And don't give me that "we must be better" canard.

We. Are. Better.

Whatever happened was investigated long before you learned about it and culprits will be reprimanded appropriately. The system works. There are abuses but the system works.

Nothing that happened in this instance is any different than what regularly happens in US. Why would we expect that when the most desperate and avaricious of our penal servants go overseas, they would behave any different?

[New Iskander]

You are clearly attempting to defend these acts by implying that the person on the receiving end deserved it. You may want to pretend that your last couple of posts were an expression of “idle desire;” but, since these events have in fact happened, we are not dealing with “idle desires” hereTalk about mental confusion.

I'm asking, why everybody here automatically assumed that the "person on the receiving end" was a complete innocent?

Probably because you all have a burning desire to make a certain point? You are so blind with hate that you will swallow anything anti-US. In your own 'albasrah' link the pictures of a woman being raped are dislaimed as not official but from a private 'e-mail'. They could be made by anybody.

[flight]

Christ, Iskander, I never pitt anyone, but you have shown yourself to be such a vile piece of crap with no human compassion that I cannot help but tell you what a fucking twat you are being.
What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US?
Because it doesn't matter! Guilty or innocent you don't do that to human beings. Saddam thought he had just reasons for torturing his own people. So now you say that his torturing others is reason to torture him. Well guess what fuckwit? There are going to be a lot of Iraqis that are going to say that now OUR PEOPLE who carry out the punishment deserve to be tortured for that. And by you absolutely subhumanly moronic logic they would be right. But then, of course we would have to torture those people and so on and so on.

Damn, how can you be so fucking devoid of basic human morality you miserable fucking shit?
They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail.
Those fun loving Iraqi prisoners! Look at how happy they look. Why it's like they have their own little Arab-Disneyland. It's probably Dod-damned fucking Jimminy Cricket at the bottom of the pile prisoners dumped naked on top of each other. I bet they were just playing pile on, such fun.

Are you really so unbelievably without compassion to dismiss that? We have all said that normal people can perform such action when put in stressful situations where they have no guidance or accountability, but I guess now we have found out that there are semi-human cock monkeys like yourself that think it is fine to begin with.

Miserable little cunt.

[New Iskander]

I suggested they might find such a droll bit of irony delectable. They very well might. I don't recall any shock and outrage expressed by you at the time. Have you been keeping it all pent up, lo, these many months? Poor fellow.I didn't express any outrage because I basically agreed with you premise.

So when you advocate sending Kissinger to the Kurds and everybody says, "Hear, Hear!" it's all fine, but when I say that Saddam needs to be given the same treatment his victims suffered I have all sorts of bad words thrown at me?

I guess I have an answer to my question now.

[New Iskander]

I'm saddened beyond belief by your attitude, New Iskander. there is no defence for these acts.Where did I offer any defence? Where did I say those jailers "are innocent"? They are being properly hadled by proper authorities and it's fine with me.

I was and am questioning the prevailing mental attitudes on this board, as evidenced by this little righteous shitstorm our lefteous wiseacres are trying to whip up.

[Marley23]

I was and am questioning the prevailing mental attitudes on this board, as evidenced by this little righteous shitstorm our lefteous wiseacres are trying to whip up.
Iskander, George W. Bush and Tony Blair condemned this as well, so I think you're just a bit off base if you think this is just a 'lefteous wiseacre' thing.

Where did I offer any defence? Where did I say those jailers "are innocent"?
When you said that the victims could be guilty, you diminished the crime. You implied that they deserved it, schmuck, and you implied it rather clearly by suggesting it was deserved it if they were part of Saddam's regime.

[Gyrate]

I'm asking, why everybody here automatically assumed that the "person on the receiving end" was a complete innocent? We're not. The point is that regardless of whether the target of this abuse is a serial child rapist or an innocent bystander, we do not have the right to do that sort of thing to him.

The problem is not who we're doing it to. The problem is that we are doing it. Got it? If we adopt the tactics of the enemy, we lose the moral high ground.

Let me try simpler terms: we are "better" because we don't do the sort of things Saddam did. If we do the sort of things Saddam did, that means we are not "better".* Sorry, but we don't have a moral "Get Out of Jail Free" card just because it's US; indeed, we have a greater moral responsibility to be on our best behavior. It's tough being a good guy.


*Disclaimer: "we" in the example given was intended to be general and is not intended as a slur against all Americans or even all members of the US military, the vast majority of whom are decent people really.

[El Zagna]

While it's true that New Iskander represents the lowest of human life forms, it's important to remember that there are many more just like him. They are everywhere. They walk among us. There is no sign of the devil stamped on their forehead. From the outside they are indistinguishable from the rest of us. Some of us may even be New Iskanders without even knowing it. All we need is to be placed in a position of power over people we feel morally superior to.

The people in charge of the Iraqi prisons should know all that, and they should be held to the higest accountability for their lack of oversight.

I just wonder where this will all end.

[Squink]

The International Committee of the Red Cross, which monitors compliance with the Geneva Convention on treatment of prisoners of war, said the images were "troubling and disturbing". here (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/01/1083224646923.html)

Apparently Abu Ghraib held some cocked up mixture of petty thieves, terrorists, and actual prisoners of war. The later people should have had been visited by the red cross, just as Saddam has received visits to access his condition. As far as I can tell the red cross was kept out of the loop. At what level was that decision made, and who made it? Their ass needs to be served up on a platter.

[Mapache]

Jeezus.
I usually just lurk, but this nasty little scumbag is pushing me into poating.
I think I´ll just quote everybody else.

Miserable little cunt.

you have shown yourself to be such a vile piece of crap with no human compassion that I cannot help but tell you what a fucking twat you are being.

Damn, how can you be so fucking devoid of basic human morality you miserable fucking shit.

I guess now we have found out that there are semi-human cock monkeys like yourself that think it is fine to begin with.

What kind of monster are you that you would advocate that kind of cruelty?

That makes you a hypocrite and an asshole.

No, you sadistic fuck, it means we're on the side of HUMANITY. WE don't stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them.

you pathetic little toad.

I need to take a shower.

Not quoting any more. I agree with all the above, and if I were more eloquent right now (just got off a ten hour bus ride) I would add a lot more of my own.

New Iskander, you make me sick.

[DSeid]

New Isklander,

To play your game and follow your logic, how do you know that some of those who were killed in the 9/11 attack weren't guilty of henious crimes and deserved to die?

I've said this in many threads of other subjects: the capacity to commit evil acts upon others is part of the human nature that we all share. We all have the potential given the "right" circumstances.

A US response that amounts to treating this as the military self-policing the actions of a few "bad" people will be forthcoming and is woefully inadequate. This is a result of too much power and too little oversight and bankrupt leadership. I'm with the others of this thread who have previously thought that we had a moral and ethical obligation to see Iraq through to some stable and human rights respecting conclusion. Now I'm not sure that we are capable of that task ....

[Mapache]

That´s posting. I don´t know what poating is, but it sounds like fun.

[Ale]

Where did I offer any defence?

Defense?, nah, that´s not enough, you condone and encourage such behaviour.

He might have been mistreated. He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him.
...
...
And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse.

A whole lot worse?, what could that be?, throwing them into a plastic shredder perhaps?
But they deserved to be tortured anyway, right?

...The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski’s defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers “routinely” rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners...

Except that 60% of innocent inmates.

[clairobscur]

There are always, and everywhere, people who volunteer for deporting, torturing, executing anybody as soon as they're told they are "evil" people who deserve it. Sometimes, I think about this while looking at people and wonder how many amongst them would happily become a camp guard or torturer in we were in a situation like in Bosnia, Rwanda, etc...



I couldn't help thinking, when I read this thread that Iskander would be amongst those. It has been demonstrted many times that even people who would never think about harming anybody in unsual circumstances can become such murderers. What then, with people who, even in normal circumstances try to find excuses for torturers, are inclined to think that if the person is *possibly* guilty, it's a good enough reason for not condemning the assholes, and finally state they would like people they think are criminal to be sadisticaly tortured.



Not only your statements are disgusting, Iskander , but you seem to be completely off-base. Off-base because you believe that people condemn such actions only for partisan reasons. IOW, you believe that these people wouldn't be disturbed by these acts if they didn't furthered their agenda. That they would ignore them. It tells *a lot* about *you*, Iskander if you believe that the main reason people state their disgust is their political stance. You apparently don't even realize that most people are decent. That most people are genuinely revolted by the crimes we are talking about. I'm not sure what your perception of the world is, but it must be dark, very dark, inside.

[clairobscur]

I wanted to add that Iskander comments are for me the second most offensive statements I've read on this board. And I read a lot of crap, over the last years.

[ElvisL1ves]

The second-most offensive? Come on, don't leave us hanging like that.

[elucidator]

It wasn't you, Elvis. Not sure of that, of course, but its a pretty good bet.

Say, speaking of obnoxious, is friend Scylla over the River Charon?

[New Iskander]

When 'elucidator' is saying, "Throw Kissinger to the Kurds!" to serve Justice, nobody minds.

If I were to say, "I wish Bin Laden and his henchmen were put in airplane and smashed against his bunker" to serve Justice, would anyone mind?

Exactly what I said:
I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?

What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity?

What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people!

Don't Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps?

Wouldn't that be the real Justice?For saying that I was immediately called What kind of monster are you that you would advocate that kind of cruelty? and I’ve met slugs with more a profound moral sense than yours..It went downhill from there.

My question was simple, "Wouldn't that be the real Justice?"

The answer should be also simple.

Instead, I am being called names.

Why?

It's not what I said about Saddam that makes you enraged, it' s because I offered a different look at the situation. You had a nice little orthodoxy going, flinging shit at Bush, as usual. That new look produced a certain conflict in your minds that you can't resolve, so you scream obscenities.

[Aldebaran]

That new look produced a certain conflict in your minds that you can't resolve, so you scream obscenities.

I think that looking at these pictures produced a certain conflict in your mind that you can't resolve, because you desperately wish you could have been participating in these screaming obscenities. Probably those with the women involved. It must be really sad for you to see Iraqi and above that also Muslim women forced to suck other men then you.

Salaam. A

[Gyrate]

When 'elucidator' is saying, "Throw Kissinger to the Kurds!" to serve Justice, nobody minds. Post a link; I'll go over there and complain too.My question was simple, "Wouldn't that be the real Justice?"

The answer should be also simple.Of course -- how foolish of us to overestimate your level of reading comprehension.

The answer is "no". Simple enough for you?Instead, I am being called names.

Why?See what I mean about the reading comprehension thing?It's not what I said about Saddam that makes you enraged, And apparently you read minds now too.it' s because I offered a different look at the situation. I don't think many people will argue that your outlook is different from that of other people. You had a nice little orthodoxy going, flinging shit at Bush, as usual. That new look produced a certain conflict in your minds that you can't resolve, so you scream obscenities.Ah -- the "You're only persecuting me because you know I'm right" speech. Good choice -- it's a classic. Delusional and sad, but a classic nonetheless.

I await the inevitable next response, O Speaker of Truth.

[samclem]

My question was simple, "Wouldn't that be the real Justice?"

The answer should be also simple.

Instead, I am being called names.

Why?

Because that would NOT be the real justice. If you believe in torturing a captive, then it would be your version of real justice, just not the kind subscribed to by the majority of the civilized world.

I hope that when you see pictures of captured US sevicemen and women in the future with a broomstick up their ass, or with electric wires attached, you remember this thread.

"Real justice" trumps all. :o

[Marley23]

The answer should be also simple.

Instead, I am being called names.

Why?
Because you sound like a primitive, bloodthirsty putz. Do you not understand why people are taking your words in this manner, or do you just think torture and rape is OK if it happens to the right people?

Let's try a different path here. The idea that Saddam and his cohorts deserve that kind of treatment isn't so outlandish (although the photos make it clear Saddam isn't in there, and his henchmen would be being interrogated, not at a normal prison). The idea that because we have moral superiority, it's okay for us to do the torturing is, um, problematic to say the least. Either you torture people or you don't, and there's no rationalization that makes it alright. Dig?

[Ignorance Is Bliss]

So now that the military has given Falujah back to Sadam's Old Boys (http://www.theargusonline.com/Stories/0,1413,83~1968~2120816,00.html), 'liberated' Iraq (http://www.marchforjustice.com/3.22.php), gang-raped women by gunpoint (http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/usa-abuse-iraqi-pow8.jpg), beaten the shit out of (http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqis_tortured_60min2-i.jpg) and pissed on POWs (http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/may2004/2/2/00070B15-4CBB-1093-953F80BFB6FA0000.jpg), I guess the job is done now!

Oh yeah, those WMD :smack: Shit! Forgot about those!

[Frank]

You'll notice, clairobscur, that New Iskander has not attempted to respond to your most excellent post. Excellent writing - I might even say profound.

[Ale]

The second-most offensive? Come on, don't leave us hanging like that.

I could bet my wig that he´s talking about this big pile of crap (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245065)

[Boyo Jim]

It's Saturday. The story broke Wednesday. The US govenment knew the story was going to break some days before. They knew the pictures existed months ago.

The US had one shot at a half-way decent counter story to the scandal running now -- if they could show every one of those grinning American faces from the abuse photos in a different set of photes, ones with the American soldiers in prison garb in holding cells. Those soldiers should have been arrested and detained pending court martial. Jeez, even if some lawyers could get them out again in a couple of days, there would have been images showing the serious consequences of their acts.

They blew it. It's nearly unbelieveable that, even today, AFAI can tell:
No Americans have been arrested
No Americans have been detained
of the 6 soldiers under investigation, only three have completed what CBS News calls (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/30/iraq/main614905.shtml) "the military equivalent if a grand jury hearing." That is updated from a story posted earlier today saying there had been no official court martial proceedings at all, merely investigative reports recommending them.

Aside from the human tragedy, which I don't discount, even as theater the US is terribly mishandling this.

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by New Iskander
I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?

What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity?

What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people!

Don't Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps?

Wouldn't that be the real Justice?Don't you get it?

If you do like they do, them you are like they are.

Aren't we supposed to be better than that?

[clairobscur]

If I were to say, "I wish Bin Laden and his henchmen were put in airplane and smashed against his bunker" to serve Justice, would anyone mind?

I would mind too, like I do when I read people wishing some criminal to be subjected to various tortures. But your stance is way worse.


Instead, I am being called names.

Why?

.


I can't see many reasons, besides the fact that you don't get that torturing people, even evil people, is generally not well-accepted :

-You're searching excuses for the criminals, not calling revenge on them, like people making similar statements usually do.
-You're condoning the criminal acts, and attacking the *victims*
-You're totaly oblivious of any sense of justice : since they *might* be guilty of *something*, then it could be justified to torture them.
-Your sole concern seems to be claiming again and over again "we" are better than "them" when faced with the fact that part of the "we" are criminals. What seems to be important to you is the criticism of your country, the criminal acts being irrelevant.
-Your display of a total lack of compassion
-You're accusing people who denounce a crime of "siding with the mass-murderers", while the person siding with the criminals is *you*
-You're accusing people who denounce a crime of being motivated only by their political agenda, rather than by the most obvious reason : disgust and compassion.
-More generally, you display a total inability to grasp the feelings of the people who posted here, which, as I said, is telling about your own personnality.
-You also display a total inability to grasp the reasonnings of said people. What justice is about seems to completely escape you.
-You've no qualm condemning something when the "evil" guys do it, and excusing it when the "good" ones do the same.


To sum up, contrarely to people who simply state "I wish the baby-killer to be tortured" (and for that only deserve scorn) , you're accumulating all the possible offensive statements one can imagine, you're siding with the culprits against the victims, you're attacking the people who are disgusted by the criminal behavior in insulting ways, you're showing a total lack of compassion and sense of justice, you let appear clearly that you crave for making people suffer, you're clueless about the basic values that your own society cherish, you don't show an ounce of humanity.


People have been flammed for uttering only *one* statement similar to yours. You're accumulating in one thread enough despicable comments to feed a dozen different pittings.


And you don't do that only once, but you go on searching new excuses and making new attacks over and over again, actively digging your own grave. You appear totaly stubborn and stuck in your idiocy and moral bankruptcy.

[clairobscur]

The second-most offensive? Come on, don't leave us hanging like that.



The most offensive IMO was a poster who argued that the whole middle-east should be nuked, a couple years ago. I considered leaving the SD board at this time, given the level of hate he displayed, which amounted for me to a call for genocide, without receiving any blame from the moderators.


He had been banned latter, IIRC.

[New Iskander]

Not only your statements are disgusting, Iskander , but you seem to be completely off-base. Off-base because you believe that people condemn such actions only for partisan reasons. IOW, you believe that these people wouldn't be disturbed by these acts if they didn't furthered their agenda. That they would ignore them. It tells *a lot* about *you*, Iskander if you believe that the main reason people state their disgust is their political stance. Really? Before I buy your 'excellent' argument, may I take it for a test-drive?

We are talking about application of an ancient 'an eye for an eye' principle.

Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called 'the lowest form of life'.

Yet I didn't suggest doing to Saddam anything that he didn't do to other people.

Bush sent US soldiers to fight in Iraq.

If I were to say, "dress Bush in combat gear and parachute him over Falluja", would you still call me 'the lowest form of life'?

[Frank]

Really? Before I buy your 'excellent' argument, may I take it for a test-drive?

We are talking about application of an ancient 'an eye for an eye' principle.

Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called 'the lowest form of life'.

Yet I didn't suggest doing to Saddam anything that he didn't do to other people.

Bush sent US soldiers to fight in Iraq.

If I were to say, "dress Bush in combat gear and parachute him over Falluja", would you still call me 'the lowest form of life'?
It's amazing! You can read and write English without showing the slightest awareness of the actual meaning of the words. Frankly, I'm astounded. What you are suggesting is not even acceptable for rabid dogs. What is so difficult about the concept that acting like a horrible human being is equal to being a horrible human being? I'd like to think that my country is not full of horrible human beings. Call it a whim.

[New Iskander]

Aren't we supposed to be better than that?We are better than that. However, we are not exactly angels. That's the whole point.

Nothing was done in that prison that wasn't done many times over in US prisons. Why is it suddenly such a big surprise? We have to deal with such stuff all the time. We are talking about jail guards, for crying out loud! They may be superior forms of life than Me, but still... There are proper procedures in place for dealing with such things within the system.

Of all those righteous lefties, spouting their condemnations now, how many entertained an idea to go serve in Iraq, to make sure things are put to right all the time?

[clairobscur]

.

Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called 'the lowest form of life'.


You'd only deserve to be called a moron for this.


It's *not* for this reason that you've been called so, it was just a little drop in an ocean of offensive statements. And you know it perfectly well. You should stop pretending.

Or at least I hope you know it perfectly well, since otherwise, if you don't get why you're being flammed, you're even more unable to understand the basic concepts of decency than I thought. I would probably prefer to believe that you're only displaying hypocrisy, here.

[Shayna]

I just cannot stop crying. I am so angry I am shaking. How the FUCK can we make this stop?! I want our troops the hell out of there NOW, replaced by neutral United Nations forces who will oversee the remainder of the transition. How the motherfucking holy FUCK can anyone support the goddamned bastard Commander In Chief of our military NOW? He fucking knew about this months ago, yet not a goddamn thing has been done about it. It's HIS army. It's HIS repsonsibility. Where's the anger and the outrage we should be hearing coming from him? Where are the abject apologies to the Iraqi people? Where is anything from that fuckwad besides a bunch of lip service about how this "does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America"?

AS IF THAT'S GOING TO MATTER TO THEM NOW, YOU SHITSTAIN! http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/01/iraq.prisoner.reax/index.html

"Shame on America. How can they convince us now that it is the bastion of democracy, freedoms and human rights? Why do we blame our dictators then?" asked Mustafa Saad, who was reading morning papers in a downtown Cairo cafe, the A.P. reported.

<snip>

"Americans claim that they respect freedom and democracy, but only in their country," Taher, 24, added.

<snip>

Hussein al-Saeedi, spokesman for Kuwait's al-Salaf radical Islamic group, said the images "make every sensible person doubt all the principles Western democracies are offering" and show the need for an end to the U.S. occupation.

"America justified its invasion of Iraq by saying the country was under a dictatorship. Unfortunately, Americans are now torturing the Iraqi people in the same place Saddam tortured them," he said.

<snip>

"I can't describe what I felt when I saw those scenes; they revolted me and proved the barbarity of the occupation forces," said Mohammad Salman, a traffic policeman, Reuters reported. "What's the difference between them and Saddam? They are finishing what he started," he said.

!!!!!!SCREEEEEEEEAM!!!!!!!!

[clairobscur]

.

Of all those righteous lefties, spouting their condemnations now, how many entertained an idea to go serve in Iraq, to make sure things are put to right all the time?


At least, we can be relieved that *you* aren't serving in Irak and applying your concepts.

[New Iskander]

It's amazing! You can read and write English without showing the slightest awareness of the actual meaning of the words. Frankly, I'm astounded. What you are suggesting is not even acceptable for rabid dogs. What is so difficult about the concept that acting like a horrible human being is equal to being a horrible human being? I'd like to think that my country is not full of horrible human beings. Call it a whim.The question was, "if I suggest to parachute Bush over Falluja, would you still call me names?" Please answer the question.

[New Iskander]

It's *not* for this reason that you've been called so, it was just a little drop in an ocean of offensive statements. And you know it perfectly well. You should stop pretending.Except saying that I wish to see Saddam tortured like his victims were tortured, what other 'offensive' statements have I made? Quote, please.

[Frank]

The question was, "if I suggest to parachute Bush over Falluja, would you still call me names?" Please answer the question.
Without a parachute? Don't tempt me. No, I couldn't care less if you suggested that.

How can you possibly think that your opinion that explicitly prohibited and uncivilized treatment of prisoners is OK is equivilant to the suggestion that Bush go fight in the war? Are you nuts?

[Estilicon]

I miss December, I remember the good all days when we employed 5 pages trying to argue with him and make him see the light. This new guy Iskander... what can I say to you that hasn't been said before?
Perhaps I could tell you my country's experience where law-abiding, church going Generals decided that the best way to fight terrorism was dropping all suspects from airplanes to the sea. Argentina's war against terrorism was the most succesfull ever. In a short time all terrorists were eliminated, along with their wives, children, plumbers, bakers and pharmacists. If you really want to fight terrorism hire Videla as your advisor.
We are still paying the consequences thirty years later.
I really doubt I can convince you New Iskander so, and considering this is the pit, go and fuck yourself, you worthless excuse of a human being

[samclem]

New Iskander's tag line:

"Free inquiry cannot flourish among idiotic certainties of ignorant men" from H. L. Mencken

H. L. Mencken would have put his foot up your ass 'til it hit your tonsils.

You made no "free inquiry." You only embarassed yourself. And continue to do so.

[Triskadecamus]

He isn’t pretending.

He really doesn’t see that there is no difference among torturers according to their motives, or the actions of their victims.

He thinks that some right is given to those he agrees with to practice any act that furthers his own interests.

This isn’t ignorance, or stupidity.

It is evil.

And it is everywhere. And I bet it isn’t far from a plurality opinion among Bush supporters.

End this war now. It is already destroying our nation. It is destroying our very souls.

Let’s declare ourselves the losers, sign a surrender that has our safe retreat as it’s only condition, and get the hell out of Iraq.

Let’s ask every nation where we have troops if they really want our troops there.

Because we have an army that incarcerates noncombatants without review by any other authority. We have an army that tortures its prisoners. We are the evil empire. We should stop.

George Bush should be surrendered to the appropriate world court for being the Commander in Chief of an army that violates all of fundamental international laws about conflicts between nations.

This is disgusting on so many levels that we should each be deeply ashamed of our complicity in it.

Tris

[Zoe]

Like Juanita Tech, I am not surprised at all. Why expect the Americans and British to be different from other soldiers who are brainwashed into thinking that "we" are the good guys and "they" are evil? Demonization.

The women and men directly responsible for the torture should be tried for war crimes and so should the person or persons responsible for putting them into those positions without appropriate training for the treatment of POW's.

Who made the decision to allow civilians to interrogate the prisoners? I would think that that choice was made pretty far up the chain of command. Is this a violation of the Geneva Conventions?

How many of you think that six or seven other American soldiers chosen for the task would have behaved any differently toward the prisoners? Those who are guilty were probably fairly ordinary kids a couple of years ago.

[Squink]

It is evil.
It's the very same evil that gives rise to people like Saddam. It's quite fond of trying to disguise itself behind noble motives, but the fruits of its actions mark it as evil for anyone who has eyes to see.

[New Iskander]

Without a parachute? Don't tempt me. No, I couldn't care less if you suggested that.

How can you possibly think that your opinion that explicitly prohibited and uncivilized treatment of prisoners is OK is equivilant to the suggestion that Bush go fight in the war? Are you nuts?Finally, an honest answer!

I didn't say that treatment of prisoners was OK, I said I wish it was Saddam standing there with wires attached. Don't make stuff up.

[New Iskander]

Perhaps I could tell you my country's experience where law-abiding, church going Generals decided that the best way to fight terrorism was dropping all suspects from airplanes to the sea. Argentina's war against terrorism was the most succesfull ever. In a short time all terrorists were eliminated, along with their wives, children, plumbers, bakers and pharmacists. If you really want to fight terrorism hire Videla as your advisor.
We are still paying the consequences thirty years later.Are you saying that 'desaparecidos' are Bush or US fault, too? We never had anything anywhere close to such atrocities on US soil. What's the connection? Because you messed up, we have to be sorry?

[New Iskander]

It's the very same evil that gives rise to people like Saddam. It's quite fond of trying to disguise itself behind noble motives, but the fruits of its actions mark it as evil for anyone who has eyes to see.So, wishing Saddam to experience the same pains he inflicted on other people "gives rise to people like Saddam". Because it's a vicious circle, right? We need to brake it, right? Let them torture and kill, we'll do the real justice. We put them in air-conditioned spacious cells with all the amenities, provide them with a lawyer, that's what real Justice is, right? Still wrong? Oh, I see, the invasion itself is illegal. So, we had to stay out, right? Let Saddam a free hand to continue with torture and murder, right? That's what real Justice is, right? I thought so.

[Dan Norder]

I am not surprised about the actions of the soldiers, as this sort of thing pops up all over, especially in war.

I agree that the soldiers involved should have been immediately arrested and brought back for public court martials to try to lessen some of the sting this is going to have internationally.

One thing I do wonder about are the photos of the "oral rape" on the site linked to earlier. Not that I think there aren't soldiers who would do this, but I am a born skeptic. Something about some of them strike me as knockoff porn that someone forwarded over to try to get people even more mad. Not clearly so, but enough to make me wonder. Although I would suspect that if that's really the case we'll know soon enough, as someone somewhere will have seen it in both places and comment on it. Some of the other photos look suspicious too, but I think that's more poor quality of the camera and so forth.

But overall though, people everywhere need to know that these actions are not something human beings should do to each other. If we are soft on these soldiers just because they are ours (for those of us on the board who can claim them in some way) we just tell the next set of people that it's perfectly fine.

Especially with all the people like New Iskander and others out there saying the same things. It needs to stop sometime. These kind of evil thoughts and rationalizations need to be stomped out.

[Squink]

Let Saddam a free hand to continue with torture and murder, right? Nope, but you can't eliminate people like Saddam by acting just like Saddam or allowing your agents to act just like Saddam. If that's how you act, then even when Saddam is gone, you're stuck with some new outfit that behaves just like Saddam. If that's how you're going to do things, we'd be better off, both monetarily, and in terms of bodycounts if we had done nothing at all.

[Typo Negative]

So, wishing Saddam to experience the same pains he inflicted on other people "gives rise to people like Saddam". Because it's a vicious circle, right? We need to brake it, right? Let them torture and kill, we'll do the real justice. We put them in air-conditioned spacious cells with all the amenities, provide them with a lawyer, that's what real Justice is, right? Still wrong? Oh, I see, the invasion itself is illegal. So, we had to stay out, right? Let Saddam a free hand to continue with torture and murder, right? That's what real Justice is, right? I thought so.
Wow. so many strawmen......

First off, we are not talking about what happens to Saddam. I think we can rest assured that Saddam will not be recieving this treatment. So put away your little revenge fantasy. These guys are not Saddam. Got that? We're talking about what happens to prisoners of war.

POW's are not to be beaten. They are not to be tortured. The US has always said it agrees with this. There is simply NO WAY you can justify this kind of treatment. The soldiers and contracters who have done this are viscious thugs. Because only viscious thugs are capable of this kind of behaviour. They should be punished severely.

WE DO NOT URINATE ON POW'S!!

[Triskadecamus]

It is not just the soldiers who should be punished. It is the commanders. All the commanders. It is a chain. It has a top. His name is George Bush.

The blame does not stop there, but the legal responsibility does.

Ultimately it is you and I (the citizens of the United States) who are at fault, because we allowed it to happen. The price of democracy is that you are responsible for the actions of your government.

Stop this war now.

Tris

[Apos]

Here's some more on the Arab reaction:
http://juancole.com/

As the post notes, one of the most troubling things is the (almost certainly groundless) rumor that this happened in part because Israeli security forces were called in to add their own special insights into the torture. This is pretty silly, but to the Arab street, our shrugging off of the sorts of tactics the Israeli army sometimes uses basically puts us in the same camp as them, and they of course are willing to believe the worst as soon as the Israelis are mentions.

Worse, most accounts describe hordes of intelligence people coming in and out of the prisons on various errands and unknown business, often with it not being clear who they were. In this atmosphere of confusion and impunity in the prisons, concocting anti-us propaganda with a veneer of truth is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel, because it becomes impossible to effectively deny or disprove to the public.

[Mighty_Girl]

From this article: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4871554/)
The alleged abuses of prisoners were “stupid, kid things — pranks...”
Mother of one of the reservist involved

“We really don’t know how those prisoners are behaving,” said Zeenithia Davis, who is in the Navy in Mississippi. “There’s a line between heinous war crimes and maintaining discipline.”
Wife of another reservist

WTF??!!


This is disgusting. My true only consolation is that our Brainless Leader decided to return our troops home this month. We had no business there and I object to them staying there.

Heads should roll, but I will be surprised if they do.

[masonite]

Heads should roll, but I will be surprised if they do.Except our own, of course.

Tris, thank you for your posts in this thread. I hate to be the guilty liberal, but you're right, it's not just them, it's us. Who among us could guarantee we wouldn't possibly succumb to the inherent pressures (towards evil) of being in charge of a group we feel superior to.

War is hell.

[Desmostylus]

...our Brainless Leader decided to return our troops home this month.Huh?

[Mighty_Girl]

Dominican Rep.

A.K.A. The Country with the Stupidest President EVER.

[Desmostylus]

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you might have been referring to some other Brainless Leader. :)

[Legolamb]

My question was simple, "Wouldn't that be the real Justice?"

The answer should be also simple.


For once you're right. And that answer would be a resounding NO. As Shayna said in the first response to the first time you spouted this crap, condemning the man then wanting to perform the very same actions for which you are condemning him on him, makes you not only a hypocrite but a sick fucking arsehole too.

Saddam is a POW the same as a lot of the men in Abu Ghraib which means he too has the right to not be urinated on, electrocuted, tattooed with a knife, piled naked underneath his fellow POWs, given mock executions, etc. As these are illegal under the Geneva Convention, wishing these acts on him is morally reprehensible and really makes you no better than those performing the acts, whether they be 372nd MPC or Saddam and his generals.

The knowledge that there are sick fucks like you and the people of Fort Ashby (where most of 372nd MPC are from and where they are touted as heroes) exist in this world just show that The Straight Dope's missionis proving unsuccessful.

[Marley23]

Make of it what you will, but Brig. Gen. Karpinski says this story goes higher up. (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/international/middleeast/02ABUS.html)

[Revtim]

It's a shame when people define their morals and ethics by "the other guy did it first!" principle.

We put them in air-conditioned spacious cells with all the amenities, provide them with a lawyer, that's what real Justice is, right? Still wrong? Oh, I see, the invasion itself is illegal. So, we had to stay out, right? Let Saddam a free hand to continue with torture and murder, right? That's what real Justice is, right? I thought so.You know, if you can't tell the difference between refraining for torture, and "air-conditioned spacious cells" and letting Saddam free, then the debate is WAY over your head.

[Merkwurdigliebe]

Something tells me that we are going to pay for this in the form of another terrorist attack. If there was anything to enrage Arabs on the street, this will be it. They now have confirmation of everything they suspected, so we are screwed. Don't expect the war on terror to be over any time soon now, because we'll be paying for this shit for a long time to come now.


And to NI


For you suggesting that Saddam be electrocuted being equivalent to me wishing that Bush had to go to Iraq is not the same. The logic is twisted. There's a difference between forcing others to risk their lives and torturing. Forcing someone to risk their life is sometimes necessary and desirable. Think about WWII, for example. Torturing is never good, and should be considered one of the things that civilized societies don't do, like canibalism, or rape. The whole eye for an eye thing is okay, as long as you don't cross the boundary for civilized human beings. I could equally wish for GWB to be impeached, but not for Osama to be put in an Airplaine and crashed into a building full of terrorists.

See? Its caused civilized society. We've been doing pretty well at being civilized, but any slip backwards should be discouraged and undesireable. Before humans used to enslave and kill other members of other tribes. I think everybody else gets that, except you. Although your more primitive instincts may react emotionally and think such a thing is just, they should certainly be caught by the more logical centers of your brain that are required to think out an intelligent argument.

On to more important things:

I think this is very important, and although this war is complete shit now, I certainly hope we actually learn something from this. But I am not sure if we will, because GWB has been the king of irresponsibility, and never admiting to mistakes. Wise people always admit their mistakes and learn from them. I sure hope we learn that although we have big guns and the most powerful military in the world, we can't go around pissing people off, because it always comes back. You invade Iraq pissing all over the UN and the rest of the opinion of the world, you get little respect from the Iraqis.

People who did this have no respect for other human beings. They have no respect for the laws of civilization. When you hear of the British troops talking about the Americans, you begin to wonder if there isn't something wrong with our society.

There is no possible good that can come out of Iraq not that will not require lots of lost life and further destruction. It will require us to not strike back an eye for an eye and for us to be as pacifist as possible. You can't kill terrorists with bombs, you only make more. Why the fuck hasn't Israel won its war against terror yet?

One one hand I agree that we should get UN troops in as soon as possible. If we stay there we are just going to keep digging ourselves into a hole. However I do believe that with a new president, or shit, at least a new philosophy and a clearly thought out plan that involves some serious thinking on what we want to accomplish and what is possible. If (please God don't let it happen!) GWB gets reelected I hope he will fucking taking responsibility for his actions considering how he doesn't need to get elected again.

I get the feeling that we don't know jack-shit about what is going on there and even less about what should be expected and how to do it. All of the main people are in the greenzone and are corrupt playing power politics and sucking on the big spigot of US taxpayer money all the while people are dying and devolving into the lowest form of human life unpunished and underinvestigated by this "what, me worry?" press and society. :mad: The whole is a colossal waste of time, money, life, international prestige, and every single resource put into it. And every day the president talks about sacrifice and how there are no more rape-rooms. That's really about all he has left now, because the torture is off the list although I wouldn't be surprised if there was raping going on because nobody takes any responsibility for a goddamn thing in our government any more. If its bad press, its hidden away and that's good enough because politics is all that matters. At least the news is starting to focus on the huge clusterfuck that is Iraq now.

This now confirms that unless we do some serious thinking, and taking responsibility for what the hell is going on there, then we are headed the way of Saddam. Its true. We will have replaced Saddam as the opressors of the Iraqi people.

I just wish FOR ONCE that someone would take fucking responsibility!


WHERE ARE THE FUCKING GROWNUPS!!!!!!!????? :(

[Quartz]

Are we absolutely sure that the photos are genuine? The British ones are being questioned (wrong dress, wrong guns...).

[Cerri]

Are you saying that 'desaparecidos' are Bush or US fault, too? We never had anything anywhere close to such atrocities on US soil. What's the connection? Because you messed up, we have to be sorry?

:eek:

Holy shit, you're thick.

On a to-the-bone cynicism level, I have to say, you are an impressive specimen...of what completely amoral, disgusting, offensive species, I am not certain, because I can't think of one low enough on the food chain I'd want to insult by the comparison...but impressive, nevertheless.

[Boyo Jim]

Are we absolutely sure that the photos are genuine? The British ones are being questioned (wrong dress, wrong guns...).

Apparently most of the people IN them don't deny the events happened. That's pretty good evidence.

[Aldebaran]

Like Juanita Tech, I am not surprised at all. Why expect the Americans and British to be different from other soldiers who are brainwashed into thinking that "we" are the good guys and "they" are evil? Demonization.

True, yet it did surprize me from the British (and not only because they had already one abuse scandal a few months ago.)
In my opinion the general and severely medianised demonisation of "all Muslims and all Islam" plays also a great role in this behaviour.
Once it was "communism" (and we all know enough about behaviour of the US army in Vietnam) and now it is "Islam and Muslims" inviting to look at those "brownies" as untermenschen.

But the most surprizing to me is the shocking fact that they find taking pictures of this - and even up to the point of including picturing themselves in triumphant behaviour - is seen as something absolutely normal.
Why does this make me think of pictures of the heroic colonizers of the "New world" standing in front of slaughtered bizons (not to mention the Indians). Or pictures of English colonizers in India, on the Tiger Hunt. Or pictures of colonizing EU'ers on the hunt in Africa. The same mentality drove those US soldiers to take these pictures.

A.I. (of which I am not a fan, by the way) is completely right: These are no seperated incidents at all.
In my opinion a lot of the US Heros overthere are brought into a line of thinking that sees Iraq as one very large wildpark deprived of human life other then that of their own.
Killing the savage monkeys became normal (no need to ask a question, just shoot them and if they still move after being shot, shoot again and feel proud and good that you killed one). Chasing them upto in their very homes, dragging them out together with their females and jung, surround their cities and bring on the bombs in "revenge" for the killing of a few of The Superior Human Race. That are things you find absolutely normal when considering yourself to be the Most Excellent Examples of the Superior Human Race.
The wildlife specimens that have the doubtable "luck" to be captured alive are put in the Zoo and are shareware for experimental sadism.
Nothing wrong with anything of that... Why should it be? Take some pics for the family at home for telling the grandchildren later about the Heroism in the midst of local dangerous wildlife.

Who made the decision to allow civilians to interrogate the prisoners? I would think that that choice was made pretty far up the chain of command. Is this a violation of the Geneva Conventions?

Every maltreatment of prisoners is a violation of the Geneva convention.
In my opinion there is a difficulty with these mercenaries in that they form a private army that operates under its own rules. Yet if I recall well (didn't go back reading my references) such mercenary army is bound to the local laws. Which brings up an other difficulty, because what are the local laws?
Since there was a UN resolution that gave the invaders temporarely local authority, these contractors would be operating under their laws. Which is the law of a nation that signed the Geneva Convention.

How many of you think that six or seven other American soldiers chosen for the task would have behaved any differently toward the prisoners?

Sadly enough I must say that I think that many of the other soldiers in Iraq would tend to behave about the same. See above why. Add to this the well known abuses of the so called "Go-Pills" and it is very easy to understand how things escalate in no time.

Those who are guilty were probably fairly ordinary kids a couple of years ago.

Probably. Which brings on the question: How intense is the indoctrination and the brainwashing into dehuminize other people pictured as "the enemy of Our Great Nation" (read: nowadays Muslims and Arabs especially) in the US army today?
Next question: How is that situation in the rest of the USA?
(Read posts of New Iskander and realize that he is no single case at all. I read everywhere the same sort of posts and sorry to say so, but especially on US based Message Boards and this since several years in a row).

Salaam. A

[Marley23]

In my opinion the general and severely medianised demonisation of "all Muslims and all Islam" plays also a great role in this behaviour.
Once it was "communism" (and we all know enough about behaviour of the US army in Vietnam) and now it is "Islam and Muslims" inviting to look at those "brownies" as untermenschen.
If you're making a point about viewing 'the enemy' in war and how this always happens to a defeated/occupied people, I'm sure you're right. If you're making a point more specific to a certain country, you'll probably get flamed for it.

[New Iskander]

Time to summarize.

Wishing harm on Saddam makes me 'the lowest form of life'.

Wishing harm on Bush is OK.

Case closed.

[Aldebaran]

I am talking about the building up onto this specific behaviour in this specific invasion and how it reflects similar behaviour in similar situations in the past.
What I don't say is that this specific behaviour is the same as was shown in Vietnam. Yout what is worrying (or should be worrying) is that there certainly is indication of a tendency to erode into the even much worse behaviour in Vietnam.

As for the demonizing/dehuminizing of "the other". That is a tactic as old as humanity.
Yet we are not talking about general tactics of war and how to get (and keep) your soldiers going. We talk about the US army in Iraq and to a certain extend also the Britsh army in Iraq.
And if you like to hear my opinion: I think the US army is at this point in time and in gneral much more brainwashed into dehuminizing "the other" and in thinking they are better then the rest of the world, then the British.

Salaam. A

[clairobscur]

From this article: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4871554/)




WTF??!!


This is disgusting. .


Well...But these people are relatives of the accused. One would expect them to defend their daughter and hausband respectively. Not really surprising.

[Marley23]

Iskander, you're talking to yourself at this point. Everybody else has been paying attention to the meaning of your words instead of what you claim you actually said.

[Estilicon]

Are you saying that 'desaparecidos' are Bush or US fault, too? We never had anything anywhere close to such atrocities on US soil. What's the connection? Because you messed up, we have to be sorry?

You are dumb, I was relating to you the consecuences of fighting terrorism using terrorist rules. I am not saying that the U.S. is currently employing those techniques. YOU are the one that is advocating for it's use.
I merely telling you what will happen if the Americans are dumb enough to fall in that trap. Fortunately, if we use the SDMB as a model, fucking imbeciles like you are a minority to mock, therefore I am not afraid for the U.S.A. for the time being. I will be afraid if I ever find out that idiots like manage to reproduce.

[Estilicon]

Idiots like you. I should preview.

[Mighty_Girl]

Well...But these people are relatives of the accused. One would expect them to defend their daughter and hausband respectively. Not really surprising.Well, of course. More than expected they are almost required to do so. But the wording is most unfortunately (and maybe the sentiment behind the wording). Calling these acts "kids' pranks"? Suggesting the prisoners might deserve it? Excuse me, I think mom also needs a good talking to.

[Mighty_Girl]

When some insurgents kidnapped those Japanese kids and threatened to set them on fire and other fun things we had some dopers that had the galls to claim that Iraqis were slightly less evolved than the rest of humanity (to put it mildly). Some were as far as including all Muslims in their delusional view of the world.

Now that we have seen what some American soldiers, in the name of democracy and freedom are capable of, what do you think the Iraqis will think of American/westerners? I don't think of Iraqis - or any other nationality - as smarter, in average as SDMB members. The prospect of what this is doing to Iraqi sentiments is scary.

[Boyo Jim]

Well, of course. More than expected they are almost required to do so. But the wording is most unfortunately (and maybe the sentiment behind the wording). Calling these acts "kids' pranks"? Suggesting the prisoners might deserve it? Excuse me, I think mom also needs a good talking to.

I believe the intent is to equate it to something like fraternity hazing. My sense is that the message that the relative back home received was that no one REALLY got hurt, it was all about what she took to be adolescent dominance games getting a little rough. That's what you would need to believe (at first) if you learned a beloved family member was involved.

[El Zagna]

Time to summarize.

Wishing harm on Saddam makes me 'the lowest form of life'.

Wishing harm on Bush is OK.

Case closed.I happen to be the one who referred to you as "the lowest form of life", so I think I can say with some authority that the description was not based on your "wishing harm on Saddam", but rather on the entirety of your comments.

[Banquet Bear]

Time to summarize.

Wishing harm on Saddam makes me 'the lowest form of life'.

Wishing harm on Bush is OK.

Case closed.

...ummm, no.

Many of us may, or may not wish harm on Saddam. That is not the point, and I suspect that you know it. This is what you said in the original post:

I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired?

What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn't Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity?

...Saddam was never at this prison. In fact, from memory, he is not even in the country at the moment. So why is it so remarkable that NONE of us wondered if Saddam was under the hood? Maybe because it was impossible? Please enlighten us why you find it remarkable that none of us contemplated impossible events...

[Merkwurdigliebe]

New Iskander

Time to sumarize:

Everyone here other than you is sane

You are a fucking fool




Boy I'm glad I'm in the BBQ pit.


Nobody wishes harm on Bush. Nobody here would ever say that they would want bush to be harmed. But they would say they would like to see him be put in the same risk as our soldiers. YOU want saddam to be tortured. To wish torture on someone is unacceptable. PERIOD. NOT CIVILIZED! Don't even begin to argue that you have some right to think that. You DON'T.

Its very typical of what the republican machine does. You try to equate Bush putting Americans in harms way with Saddam torturing and raping people as some sort of moral equivalency. Bush isn't that savage, and sending soldiers to war isn't below the threshold of civilized behavior. The only way you could actually have an argument is if Bush actually ordered the torture of Iraqis. Then you would have your equivalent. Then I would suggest that Bush not be tortured but tried in a court. You know why? Because I am not a fucking idiot! I am not a primordial fool like you are.

I have to stop typing now because such idiocy really hurts my brain.

Take your fucking primitive ass away from these discussions before you reveal anymore of your dirty fucking soul, I don't want to see any more.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[DrDeth]

gang-raped women by gunpoint[/URL], [URL=http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqis_tortured_60min2-i.jpg]

The "sex video" clips seem faked- uniforms are wrong, etc. Those do not seem to be real Allied servicemen. Note also that no 'real" media is claiming they are real.

A few things to note- the very worst of the 'tortures" perpetrated by our servicement would be "time off for good behavior" under Saddam. And, note that we are outraged, we do print the story, and the crimes are being investigated and the guilty will be punished. Under Saddam, they'd be getting a fuckin medal. So- for those of you asking "so what's the difference between US and Saddan?" That is.

Every army is composed of Humans. Some humans are evil. Some humans are lackeys, and some crack under the strain. These people often do wrong things.. As long as there is war- there will be atrocities. The difference is how many commit these acts, and whether or not those acts are condoned or punished when they are brought to light. In our case- the number commiting the acts was small, and the bringing to justice is swift.

Even "legal" and "just" wars have atrocities. All the Allies in WWII commited atrocities also- but we were as kindergarteners compared to the Nazis & Japs.

What does Saddam deserve? A quick painless death for his terrible crimes.

[clairobscur]

- the number commiting the acts was small, and the bringing to justice is swift.
.



You're optimistic, here. I'd rather say : "the number committing the acts and stupid enough to pridefully take pictures and send them to friends was small". I'm not convinced at all that there weren't any other soldiers or contractors doing the same. I'm not convinced at all either that people they took orders from weren't involved in what was going on. Finally, I'm not convinced at all that there weren't various people perfectly aware of what was going on, and who weren't interested the slighest bit in having the issue investigated.


By the way, who exactly publicized the pictures? How were they released to the press? Does someone know?

[zoo]

The position that Iskander takes here may be a rare animal on this board, but if my co-workers are any indication of general American attitude, his is not a rare opinion.

I have listened to the other employees talk of how “This is nothing compared to SH.” “This is just like a frat hazing.” “They probably deserved it.”
It was only after I pointed out to them how this might affect the effort to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people did some begin to see the possible down side to this latest turn of events. Others have an opinion more along the lines of “We need to just kill all of them and get it the fuck over with.”

I don’t say much to those folks.

[New Iskander]

Nobody wishes harm on Bush. Nobody here would ever say that they would want bush to be harmed. But they would say they would like to see him be put in the same risk as our soldiers. YOU want saddam to be tortured. To wish torture on someone is unacceptable. PERIOD. NOT CIVILIZED!Nobody? Really? When I suggested to parachute Bush over Falluja, the only response was to take away the parachute.

Apparently, that was a joke and everybody took it in good humour.

I don't want Saddam simply tortured, I want him to go through the same pain his victims went through.

For that I was called more bad names than Christ executioners were ever called.

Case closed.

[Squink]

I don't want Saddam simply tortured, I want him to go through the same pain his victims went through. Do you also support torturing the american soldiers who tortured the prisoners at Abu Ghraib?

[Atticus Finch]

For that I was called more bad names than Christ executioners were ever called.
Who exactly are these "Christ executioners"? Wouldn't have the same meaning as "Christ killers" by any chance?

You are one disturbed and hateful motherfucker.

[New Iskander]

Do you also support torturing the american soldiers who tortured the prisoners at Abu Ghraib?To the extent seen in the pictures and described in official investigation, Yes.

Btw, those porno pictures, how gullible one has to be to fall for that hoax?

[New Iskander]

Who exactly are these "Christ executioners"? Wouldn't have the same meaning as "Christ killers" by any chance?

You are one disturbed and hateful motherfucker.Oh, great, now I pissed off the Mossad!

Honestly, the connection didn't even occur to me.

[Squink]

To the extent seen in the pictures and described in official investigation, Yes. Then how about the people who torture the torturers, should they also be tortured? Where does your chain of torture stop, or does it?

[New Iskander]

Then how about the people who torture the torturers, should they also be tortured? Where does your chain of torture stop, or does it?What the hell is that, a reasonable argument? First you people throw shit at me for two days and now you want to discuss things?

[RedFury]

What the hell is that, a reasonable argument? First you people throw shit at me for two days and now you want to discuss things?

Methinks you shat on yourself.

Go wipe.

[Zoe]

Aldebaran: And if you like to hear my opinion: I think the US army is at this point in time and in gneral much more brainwashed into dehuminizing "the other" and in thinking they are better then the rest of the world, then the British.

I'm not really familiar with how British troops are trained, but I think there is probably always some dehumanizing of the other that takes place. I am more likely to agree with the second part of your statement. In my own opinion, we used to take pride in thinking of ourselves as "the good guys." Now there is a lot of pride in being, for the moment, the most powerful nation in the world. That is not a good sign.

Keep in mind, though, that hundreds of thousands of Americans have protested the war from the beginning and that most American Dopers are not supporters of our current White House Administration's foreign policies. Some polls are now showing that less than 50% of Americans now believe that we should have gone to war in Iraq. We don't all think with one mind and the same is true for our troops. It was a US soldier that was haunted by the photos he was shown who reported these injustices to his commander.

New Iskander, your thinking perpetuates the problem. The torturing is the result of hatred. If you harbor the hatred and nurture it, and if you would find pleasure in seeing your enemy tortured, then the biggest difference in you and Saddam is probably opportunity.

Finally, one of the prisoners named al-Shweiri was interviewed and said the following:

"They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." -- from a news source at Yahoo

Even this victim continues to look with contempt at half the population of his country.

[Atticus Finch]

Oh, great, now I pissed off the Mossad!

Honestly, the connection didn't even occur to me.
Then what the fuck is a "Christ Executioner" and why are they worthy of scorn. As for the Mossad crack, you obviously don't know a single fucking thing about me, and that's where I'll let it rest.

[gum]

Originally posted by Zoe "They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." -- from a news source at Yahoo Jesus! Did he say that? So, When all this shit is over and the prisoner is a free man, I'd love to have a word with him.

[Mr. Svinlesha]

Dan Norder: One thing I do wonder about are the photos of the "oral rape" on the site linked to earlier. Not that I think there aren't soldiers who would do this, but I am a born skeptic. Something about some of them strike me as knockoff porn that someone forwarded over to try to get people even more mad. Not clearly so, but enough to make me wonder. Although I would suspect that if that's really the case we'll know soon enough, as someone somewhere will have seen it in both places and comment on it. Some of the other photos look suspicious too, but I think that's more poor quality of the camera and so forth.You know, I’ve wondered that myself. Some of the photos look like something you’d find in a magazine buried in the back of an adult bookstore in Amsterdam, sandwiched between “Dog Love” and “Latex Fetish Octogenarians.”

But NI, apparently, would defend these acts, even if they turn out to be real. He would reduce them to mere “pranks,” common even in the US, and have us believe that they are acceptable because the victims might have deserved it.

And now he tries to hide behind his pathetic partisan posturing, demonstrating for the whole world what twisted, sick puppy he really is. It churns the stomach.


New Iskander:Time to summarize.I’m sorry. Don’t you mean, “Time to post another idiotic, content-free pile of steaming nonsense?” Wishing harm on Saddam makes me 'the lowest form of life'.

Wishing harm on Bush is OK.You see? That was, indeed, exactly what you meant.

Thought so.Case closed.You wish, don’t you, you pathetic, bleating little cunt?

Here’s hoping the remainder of your stay here at the SDMB is as unpleasant for you as this thread has been, until you finally leave this place and never darken our door again.

Really. Go fuck yourself.

[New Iskander]

Here’s hoping the remainder of your stay here at the SDMB is as unpleasant for you as this thread has been, until you finally leave this place and never darken our door again.Your door?

Well, if it's true and the SDMB door is indeed yours, the resolution should be simple. Refund my subscription and I shall leave. If you don't have authority to do that, Shut Up!

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

The "sex video" clips seem faked- uniforms are wrong, etc. Those do not seem to be real Allied servicemen. Note also that no 'real" media is claiming they are real. And yet, in practical terms, it's irrelevant whether they're real or faked. They'll be circulated in the Muslim world as further proof that the West really is hellbent on debasing and destroying their culture. The genuine photos of torture and sexual humiliation will give them the veneer of validity.

How long will it be, I wonder, before we see photos of captured servicemen, civilian contractors, or aid workers being subjected to what's depicted in the torture photos? How huge will be the raging howl for vengeance against the Islamic scumbeasts who dare to do this?

To what circle of Hell will this spiral descend?

[Desmostylus]

How long will it be, I wonder, before we see photos of captured servicemen, civilian contractors, or aid workers being subjected to what's depicted in the torture photos? How huge will be the raging howl for vengeance against the Islamic scumbeasts who dare to do this?Not to put too fine a point on it, but this already happened just over a month ago.

The four mercenaries from Blackwater were savagely killed, Bush swore revenge, and so something like 120 coalition troops and 1300 Iraqis died to slake George's thirst for vengence.

And at the end of all that, the US handed Fallujah over to one of Saddam's guys. It was all so fucking pointless.

[Aldebaran]

.. In my own opinion, we used to take pride in thinking of ourselves as "the good guys." Now there is a lot of pride in being, for the moment, the most powerful nation in the world. That is not a good sign.

That was what I meant to say. The combination of both makes them much more vulnarable for the tactics that dehuminize "the other" in their minds.

Keep in mind, though, that hundreds of thousands of Americans have protested the war from the beginning and that most American Dopers are not supporters of our current White House Administration's foreign policies.

I know that. I'm even rather convinced that the rest of the world - and especially the Arab/Islamic world - has seen much more news coverage of these protests then the US population itself. There was a lot of emphasis on that in Arab news coverage in an attempt to soften the "crusade" idiocy of Bush The Divinely Inspired. The same counts for the media coverage of the demonstrations all over the globe.
I had once a thread on GD asking why there were no such world wide demonstrations going on upto this day. And especially in the USA. I think we had an ongoing disagreement there because someone brought up that there were indeed demonstrations. For all kind of things including "some against the war" .Those "all kind of things including some against the war" were however not what I had and have in mind.

Some polls are now showing that less than 50% of Americans now believe that we should have gone to war in Iraq. We don't all think with one mind and the same is true for our troops. It was a US soldier that was haunted by the photos he was shown who reported these injustices to his commander.

Polls never impress me one bit :)
The rest of what you said is obviously true as it is only normal. Yet what seems also to be the case is that this scandal was known already for months and that the news coverage of it was delayed on specific demand of the US government.

Finally, one of the prisoners named al-Shweiri was interviewed and said the following:
Finally, one of the prisoners named al-Shweiri was interviewed and said the following:
Quote:
"They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." -- from a news source at Yahoo

First of all I would like to read the entire interview in the original version = before translation. We all know what can get lost or can be added, willfully or not, when translating. (And I would add: the more when translating a text into a language of an other language group).
Hence I also don't know what was referred to with "feel like a woman".
Maybe he got raped and referred to this being a crime primarely against women, and then linked that to his paternalistic upbringing that teached him that men are always superior and thus that even a crime was more an insult when it was one that was primarely targetted against women.

Even this victim continues to look with contempt at half the population of his country.

See above. It is also not very honest to insinuate that this person is the representative of an entire population. Although I must confess that in my opinion certain streamings among the Shia are even more deluded in their interpretation of "how an Islamic woman has to behave" then the lunatical Wahabbis.
We also have to deal - in Iraq as much as elswhere -with thousands of years of cultural influences on religion. That is a vicious circle that shall not be broken and then diasppear in our lifetime I'm afraid.

We all know that there are several places on this globe where women are considered to be less then men. That you and others focuss that much on situations in Islamic nations is not a surprize to me.
Yet there are a lot of non Muslim nations who have the same attidtude, be it not that outsppoken in forcing women to cover from top to toe. Nevertheless the discrimination is blatant. I could give you some examples I have first hand information about to discuss and compare, but then we should open a thread in GD about it.

Salaam. A
With great love oppressed by two of those who seem to belong in your eyes to the contempted half of the populationn and by one little belonging to the contempted half of the population, learning fast from her mother how to do it.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this already happened just over a month ago.

The four mercenaries from Blackwater were savagely killed, Bush swore revenge, and so something like 120 coalition troops and 1300 Iraqis died to slake George's thirst for vengence. Yes, in fact I was thinking about that when I posted. My thought was, what will happen to the next Westerners taken alive? Lynch mob doing to the living what was done to the presumably dead-when-abused mercenaries in Fallujah? Or to be photographed undergoing the torture our own forces inflicted on those Iraqi prisoners? And the relatives of the troops now under investigation, who are minimizing what they did: How would they react if it were their brother, wife, son, husband who was photographed hooded, naked, and humiliated by grinning Iraqis? Would troglodytes like New Iskander dismiss it as harmless pranks?

And at the end of all that, the US handed Fallujah over to one of Saddam's guys. It was all so fucking pointless. "In order to save the village, it was necessary to destroy it."

[SpazCat]

I just cannot stop crying. I am so angry I am shaking. How the FUCK can we make this stop?! I want our troops the hell out of there NOW, replaced by neutral United Nations forces who will oversee the remainder of the transition. How the motherfucking holy FUCK can anyone support the goddamned bastard Commander In Chief of our military NOW? He fucking knew about this months ago, yet not a goddamn thing has been done about it. It's HIS army. It's HIS repsonsibility. Where's the anger and the outrage we should be hearing coming from him? Where are the abject apologies to the Iraqi people? Where is anything from that fuckwad besides a bunch of lip service about how this "does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America"?

AS IF THAT'S GOING TO MATTER TO THEM NOW, YOU SHITSTAIN!

!!!!!!SCREEEEEEEEAM!!!!!!!!


My thoughts exactly. I'm still looking for profanities strong enough to describe my feelings, but I'm afraid that if I find them, the entire Eastern Seaboard will burst into flames.

[Apos]

By the way, who exactly publicized the pictures? How were they released to the press? Does someone know?

A whistleblower. But the real disturbing story is that he had been blowing his whistle for months, and the military wouldn't listen. It's only when he came across actual photos of the acts that they had to stand up and take notice of what he was saying.

[wring]

A whistleblower. But the real disturbing story is that he had been blowing his whistle for months, and the military wouldn't listen. It's only when he came across actual photos of the acts that they had to stand up and take notice of what he was saying.
Frightening, isn't it. Almost as much as what I heard on the Today show, that the commanding officer of the prison stated that there were areas of the prison that were off limits to her. How on earth does that go on w/in a military structure?

ironic as hell to me, also, is the refrain from the usual suspects about how it's only a few members, you shouldn't condemn the entire group etc. etc etc. Odd, when they didn't seem to accept that argument wrt terrorists w/in Muslim faith. Especially since with the all volunteer armed forces, one has to apply and be accepted and trained etc. That's one of the more frightening aspects to me. It may only be a few rotten apples (odd coincidence, then, that they should all be assigned to the same small group, eh? and apparently also on the same shifts), but the US forces are supposed to be the best of the best, aren't they?

[Guinastasia]

Question-as awful as this is-more in a moment-what would happen to Iraq if we just "pulled out?" I mean, the country seems to be a mess right now-I mean, wouldn't we just be screwing them over? Sink or swim?

As for the abuse...I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. Except that I don't think I have ever been truly disgusted and ASHAMED to be an American.

Right now, I am. People can crow on and on and milk the crap about patriotism and anti-American leftists all they want. I don't give a shit anymore.

I feel like vomitting.

[Shayna]

A whistleblower. But the real disturbing story is that he had been blowing his whistle for months, and the military wouldn't listen. It's only when he came across actual photos of the acts that they had to stand up and take notice of what he was saying.
Frightening, isn't it. Almost as much as what I heard on the Today show, that the commanding officer of the prison stated that there were areas of the prison that were off limits to her. How on earth does that go on w/in a military structure?
Amnesty International has been screaming to be heard about widespread abuses perpetrated by our military (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/02/iraq.prisoner.reax/index.html) for the past year and has been roundly ignored! But Nicole Choueiry, Amnesty's Middle East spokeswoman, said the group had detailed "scores" of reports of ill-treatment over the past year but the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq had ignored them. However, in all fairness, from digging deeper and deeper following links within links to stories about this, it would appear as though CNN has been reporting about this since mid-March (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/03/20/iraq.prison.abuse/index.html), and that an investigation was started back in January. Soldiers charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners

From Barbara Starr
CNN
Saturday, March 20, 2004 Posted: 4:59 PM EST (2159 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Six U.S. soldiers have been charged with offenses related to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at an Iraqi prison, the U.S. Army said Saturday.

The soldiers are charged with assault, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, conspiracy and indecent acts with another, U.S. Army spokesman Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said.

<snip>

The soldiers, charged with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice, have been suspended from duty since the investigation began .

<snip>

Nine more military personnel and two civilian employees may also face severe administrative action, according to U.S. military sources. Eight of them are expected to receive letters of reprimand that effectively will end their military careers, the sources said.

A civilian translator and a civilian interrogator are expected to be fired.

The Army's Criminal Investigative Division's investigation concluded there is sufficient evidence to recommend charges. The final decision was the commander's.

CNN has previously reported that 17 personnel at the prison were relieved of their duties, including a battalion commander, a company commander, three noncommissioned officers, and 12 military police directly involved in guard duties. So why was this story apparently burried so deeply? CNN did report on it, but where were the headlines? Did anyone here know about this 6 weeks ago? How did this manage to get so heavily quashed, until it couldn't be shoved in a corner or denied anymore due to the photographic evidence?
ironic as hell to me, also, is the refrain from the usual suspects about how it's only a few members, you shouldn't condemn the entire group etc. etc etc. Odd, when they didn't seem to accept that argument wrt terrorists w/in Muslim faith. Especially since with the all volunteer armed forces, one has to apply and [i]be accepted and trained etc. That's one of the more frightening aspects to me. It may only be a few rotten apples (odd coincidence, then, that they should all be assigned to the same small group, eh? and apparently also on the same shifts), but the US forces are supposed to be the best of the best, aren't they?
I said that very thing in the letter I wrote to all of my Representatives in Congress: It won't matter to our enemies that the small handful of monsters who did this don't reflect the entirety of our military or our nation, any more than it mattered to Mr. Bush that the actions of 20 Muslim men on September 11, 2001 didn't represent the entirety of the Muslim nations in the Middle East, let alone Iraq or the Iraqi people.
This administration makes me ill.

[Shayna]

More from your link, Johnny: "I hated Saddam so much that when the Americans came, I viewed them as liberators. I was happy and supported them. But soon it became clear that they are no liberators but occupiers," he said. "I had seen how oppressed people were under Saddam and I refused to give in to oppression and injustice. We must fight oppression."

When al-Shweiri left American detention, he said his hatred for Saddam was replaced with one for America and two months ago he joined the al-Mahdi Army of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Now with the future of the al-Mahdi Army uncertain, many militiamen are worried. The Americans have demanded the militia be disbanded and that al-Sadr, who is accused of involvement in the death of a rival cleric, turn himself in.

"If Seyed Muqtada orders us to disband, we will. If he orders us to die, we will die. And if he tells us to live, we will live. We have nothing to do with the Americans and what they demand from us," al-Shweiri said. How anyone could still support our continued occupation of their country and think it's the best solution is beyond me.

[Apos]

What are the alternatives to occupation? If we leave now, we leave the job unfinished, the nation still in ruins. Remember that in addition to the fighting, the US is rebuilding all sorts of things around the country, and protecting projects that are important to getting clean water and power to people around the country. SOMEONE has to keep doing these things.

These photos make our job harder, and they make our leaders look clueless and negligent, with all the wrong priorities. But they don't change the reality of the situation.

[Squink]

Some "jobs" are best left unfinished.
Leave no virtue unsullied, leave no Iraqi unscarred.

[Apos]

If you don't shut up right now, this zombie will eat your BRAINS!!!!
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/CNN/Programs/american.morning/images/2004/04/custom.karpinski.ap.jpg

[Squink]

The administration is hoping that positive images of U.S. soldiers building schools and medical clinics will help counter those photos. The U.S.-funded Arabic Al-Hurra, Al-Iraqiya and the Middle East broadcast network are prime outlets for airing such flattering images, the official said. White House Hopes for Iraq Turning Point (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=4&u=/ap/20040504/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq)

[Apos]

Seriously though (and I should have a lot more sway with you now that your brains have been eaten), what are we really going to accomplish by simply pulling out? For better or worse, we went in there: we instigated a massive change in this country, tore down every institution that it had. Isn't it our responsibility to see it through now? To rebuild what we tore down? I certainly think that Iraqis cannot really trust us after this massive PR disaster. But we ARE the real security there now. We are the controlling force that prevents Iraq from turning into.... well... what Afghanistan has basically now become after our neglect of it: a mass of tribal grudges and fiefdoms. What better alternative do we have other than staying for as long as it takes to ensure a transition to a better government?

[Kimstu]

Here's the OP from my GD thread on this. I'm reproducing some of it here because this seems to be the place where the torture issues are being discussed, and I want some answers about this if anybody's got 'em. I'm in a real tizzy about this issue because if it's true, we just pissed off another billion people for absolutely no defensible reason.

------------
Splashed on the front page of the Hindustan Times this morning:


Indians abused at US military camp in Iraq

This is the account of Indians with visas for Kuwait ending up as slaves in US military camps in Battlefield Iraq.

In August 2003, 25 such workers — of whom Hameed, Shajahan and two others were from Kerala — paid Rs 75,000 each to obtain Kuwaiti work visas. In Kuwait, they were told they were to travel for two days to reach the work site. “When the journey ended we realised we were in Baghdad. We were handed over to another agent who took us to a military camp in Mosul,” says Hameed.

The Americans in the camp told the Indians that they had purchased them for a hefty amount, and that they were to work in the kitchen and do other odd jobs.[...]

“We were slaves in American kitchens. We barely got two hours of sleep. Any slip-ups and we were tortured for days," says Hameed.

“Once I told the kitchen in-charge that as I was a devout Muslim I could not cook pork. I was beaten up with rifle butts,” says Hameed’s brother Shahjahan.

“Iraqi militia attacked our camps several times. At times, officers used us as shields,” adds Hameed. [...]

Once they realised they had been duped and sold to the US military, they waited for a chance to escape. [...]

Their ordeal ended on April 28 when they arrived in Mumbai. But it continues for many more Indians in Iraq. Shajahan claims that he met least 70 Indians in American camps in Iraq.


Can this be true? It is certainly plausible that some Indian temporary workers ended up in Iraq; lots of Indians (especially Indian Muslims) get work visas for temporary employment in the Middle East, and the companies that arrange this employment are often pretty unscrupulous, resulting in what's basically indentured servitude and severe abuses for some Indian employees.

But can the US military have been involved in these sorts of abuses? It's appalling to think so, and ghod knows this sort of press is the last thing we need right now, inflaming anti-American resentment even in India, which by Asian standards is pretty pro-US. [...]

[Evil Captor]

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/05/03/nation_world/news03.txt


This is what sexism is all about, folks. Torture is designed to make you feel like a woman. As is Islam.

[wring]

It is my most fervant wish that you're wrong Kimstu.

But, I'm no longer saying things like "that couldn't happen, we couldn't be that stupid".

[New Iskander]

H. L. Mencken would have put his foot up your ass 'til it hit your tonsils.

You made no "free inquiry." You only embarassed yourself. And continue to do so.I couldn't possibly answer to all the hysterical shrieks, but your extremely idiotic statement still puzzles me.

'Free inquiry' means one can ask any question. How can you maintain that certain questions shouldn't be asked, because they are contrary to the spirit of 'free inquiry'?

[GKW]

What are the alternatives to occupation? If we leave now, we leave the job unfinished, the nation still in ruins. Remember that in addition to the fighting, the US is rebuilding all sorts of things around the country, and protecting projects that are important to getting clean water and power to people around the country. SOMEONE has to keep doing these things

Why does the US have to be physically present when we are just pissing off the Iraqis? Why couldn't we ask the UN to take over and foot the bill? Personally, I think the US should totally fund the reconstruction process. We should pour money into that place like there's no tomorrow. We need to keep at it until every Iraqi has clean water, electricity, telephone, the option for some kind of job training or education, and feel safe to walk the streets. I draw the line at building amusement parks. If the other countries don't have enough troops, give them more money to recruit.

I mean, for crying out loud, who the hell do we think we are invading another country and leaving it's infrastructure worse than it was? Who the hell do we think we are that we can impose democracy on another country - but only if they elect the "right" candidates? If they want a theocracy, they should be able to elect one. Maybe if we want Iraq to be an ally we should ask them to hold elections on June 30th and then work for the person elected. Let them know we are there to serve and do it with a smile. I don't care if makes our economy go belly-up. we need to be held accountable for our actions.

Another thing that freaks me out is that women were involved in the torture. I don't know why that bothers me so much -- I should know by now that anyone is capable of evil under certain conditions but it just still shocks the hell out of me.

[Blalron]

We are talking about application of an ancient 'an eye for an eye' principle.

An eye for an eye makes the entire world blind.

[New Iskander]

An eye for an eye makes the entire world blind.Quite. We are only talking, though.