Why do girls throw like it?

[Occam]

The overwhelming majority of girls throw with a limp wrist. Who teaches them this? Is it biological, cultural or is there something in the water?

[Duck Duck Goose]

My opinion--it's cultural. When T-ball starts up in the spring, look and see how many parents of little girls encourage them to join up. Not many.

You learn to throw a ball properly by watching someone else do it, by practicing, and most of all by being motivated to do it properly. Grownups rarely grab a ball away from a little girl and say irritably, "Here, THAT'S no way to throw it, lemme show you how." But they do it to little boys all the time, usually adding the gratuitous insult, "...you throw like a girl." So little boys figure it out real quick. Nobody ever encourages little girls to figure it out, so they don't.

[Scruloose]

My WAG is cultural, mostly. Little boys typically play sports like football and baseball. So they grow up with a well developed throwing style. That's also why they'll throw like a girl, when trying to throw with their opposite arm, they hardly ever do it. Little girls typically grow up participating in other sports that don't rely so much on throwing objects for distance and accuracy, so there's no developed throw. The ones that do grow up playing baseball, I would imagine don't throw like a typical girl. Take a look at some womens' fast pitch softball pitchers. They can probably underhand a softball alot faster than most men could overhand a baseball.

©

[BobT]

James Fallows wrote a piece in the Atlantic (I believe) about "throwing like a girl".
His theory was that most girls aren't taught the proper throwing motion.
What you need to be able to do is hold your throwing arm upright with your wrist to the outside of your elbow (i.e. your arm should be pointing away from your head instead of toward it).

Trying throwing a ball with the "wrong" arm and you will see the problem, it's nearly impossible to get the proper arm angle unless you've practiced a lot.

Anyone can throw properly if they are taught. Girls just don't get taught as frequently.

[sailor]

Not only do most of them throw like girls, they even run like girls! It's pathetic!

[Milossarian]

As a kid, my mom would play catch with me on occasion (Dad split).

She threw like a girl, but she could bring it!

[Dinsdale]

Here ya go.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96aug/throw/throw.htm

[Sofa King]

Girls and, um, certain presidents:


http://www.attrition.org/gallery/other/bush-baseball.gif

[Vestal Blue]

I used to have a GF who's sister could throw a fastball that scared me!
She most emphatically did not throw like a girl!

[Doctordec]

I coach my daughter's softball team (3,4,5th grade) and about half of the girls don't throw well. I work with them and most of them get it after awhile. Funny how some of the girls naturally throw as hard and as well as the boys. I think "throwing like a girl" has to do with..

1. Never being taught how to throw a ball properly. I teach the girls to bring their elbow past their ear before their wrist.

2. Some kind of body image thing about keeping your arms close to your body. I think that explains why the girls that can't throw well don't run well either because their elbows are glued to their bodies.

Some men never learn it right either.

[yabob]

I'll agree that it's mostly cultural, but there is one anatomical difference that may have an influence. Get a sample of men and women, and simply have them hold their arms locked straight in front of them, palm upward. You will notice that men's arms generally stick straight out, whereas most women will have a forearm that forms an angle at the elbow. There's a lot of variability, particularly between individual women, but in general, women's elbows are constructed differently than men's. Note that I DO NOT suggest this difference significantly impedes the ability of women to throw hard, but it is present.

[beakerxf]

Wow, not too many girls weighing in on this. That's too bad.

I can say for a fact that anatomy is not different between girls and boys. I grew up playing ball and knew quite a few girls with killer arms. I was recruited as a catcher by a boys baseball coach when I was ten because I had gained a rep for getting the ball to the second baseman everytime (that and I was consistent power hitter). However, the league ruled against my playing with his team and it was back to softbal I went.

In fact, the *only* time my entire life I have encountered gender discrimination was through sports. At times it felt like it was more trouble than it was worth to try to play sports in a league. Everywhere I turned there was apathy towards girls sports. The difference could even be seen in the small town paper. They covered the boy's league. Only mentioned the girl's league during the All Star games.

However, I don't think that's as much a problem anymore. In the last decade alone there has been a huge shift in opinion. With the WNBA, the women's soccer team, the female Olympic hockey team, etc. girls are getting mainstreams example that playing sports is acceptable and youth organizations are picking up on it. The Little League program in my hometown has exploded in size and popularity. Boy's and girl's league now get equal press coverage.

"Throwing like a girl" is one of those sayings that is on it's way out.

[RM Mentock]

Wasn't George Bush sr captain of the baseball team, at Yale?

Cultural? No, it's just lack of practice.

As others have pointed out, many guys throw the same way, with their opposite arm. If it just depended upon knowing how to throw, then it wouldn't affect your opposite arm. Same with cultural differences.

Now, cultural differences may keep some people from practicing, but at the bottom, it's just practice.

OK. I lied. I have videos of my son at 7 months, and he is not throwing that way. I don't think he ever threw that way.

[FreakFreely]

There just might be a hint of Darwinism here.

I Read It Somewhere that the human arm is ideally structured for throwing stuff. Probably the first real humanoid weapon was our old friend, the rock. Predators must remain in top condition, they cant afford injury. A cracked rib or a broken jaw is death by starvation. A troop of humanoids guarded by some serious rock-chukking males? High risk.

Could it be that female arms are adapted more for carrying than for throwing? It would seem to be the survival advantage is for the females to carry the young out of harms way while the males cover thier retreat.

(I recall reading about early human sites with pecuriarly shaped, somewhat conical, rocks that proved to be very stable in flight, the conjecture being that thay were specifically designed as a throwing weapon. Air ball is a recent innovation, but bean ball goes way back.

[evilbeth]

Well, count me as one of the girls who most definitely does not throw "like a girl."

I played baseball for years (from age 6 (coach-pitched) until they decided in middle school that I couldn't play on the boys teams any longer--then I turned to soccer full time) I refused to play softball because the ball is too large and clumsy. I, personally, think that might have something else to do with the phenomenon.

Girls, more often than not, learn how to throw a ball by playing softball. Softballs are a little heavier and larger than baseballs. A baseball will fit into my hand very comfortably and I feel very much in control of it when throwing it. A softball, being larger--and girls traditionally having smaller hands than men--is less comfortable to hold and control. Just a thought.

Of course, girls not being taught how to properly throw a ball is also a very large part of it. I had many older, male cousins and I am proud to say that not only do I not throw a baseball like a girl, I don't hit like one either! (Catching is a different story!) I can also throw a perfect football pass. So there.

[Jois]

By my observations, I see boys being willing and able to do the same thing over and over and over. It looks as if the throwing and catching is a game by itself. Girls seem less willing or able or something to do the same. Jump rope has several different speeds and rhymes, goes to double ropes, and other variations.

By the time children get to 4-5th grades the boys are so much more expert at throwing and catching that girls are seldom allowed into games like wall-ball - unless the girl brings the ball. When this happens on a more or less regular basis the boys "know" what's wrong and coach the girl.

The chatter that the more accomplished boys bring to sports shows that they have had "care and feeding" from practice times with Dad. These boys are most likely to promote good chatter with, "Almost" "Good try" "Jump higher" "Next time"
and "Way to go" rather than put other kids down with name calling, etc.

[Vestal Blue]

I used to have a GF who's sister could throw a fastball that scared me!
She most emphatically did not throw like a girl!

[brad_d]

I have a male friend (in his late 20's) who grew up playing no organized sports at all. His throwing motion looks to me exactly like the one commonly described as "like a girl."

Just like my left-hand throw, as well (I'm a righty). It's very awkward.

Based on what I've observed, I agree that it's really a matter of practice. Years of even casual throwing will, in most people, result in a more-or-less optimized throwing motion.

It's changing (for the better) but historically, girls have not grown up throwing things for distance and accuracy as much as boys. That's the "cultural" part of the explanation, I think.

There are well-known general differences in the male and female physiques: on average, males have more upper body strength; females tend to have wider hips; and I too have heard that bit about female elbows tending to be able to straighten past 180 degrees. All well and good, and of course there will be considerable overlap among individuals of the two genders. Personally, though, I don't think that these things account for the differences in throwing motion observed in the OP.

[elbows]

When I got my dog, if anyone saw me throw the ball they usually made the crack about 'throwing like a girl'. Eventually I got my SO to give me a few lessons, he could throw the dogs ball to the end of the yard (70-100yds)- no worries. I'm smaller than him and lighter, but I can now do a nice job of throwing the ball 'not like girl', I think it's a reflection of what they are taught/encouraged to do/try/excel at.

[Bucky]

I used to coach 9 and 10 year olds, boys and girls. I also spent a summer coaching high school girls' softball.

"Throwing like a girl" is practice, not anatomy or genetics. Culture makes an impact on how many girls practice, but I am willing to bet that some of the girls I've coached could out-throw 90% of the men out there.

I also have to agree with the poster who made reference to left-handed throwing. With my right hand, I throw like a boy; with my left, like a "girl." BTW the smae is true of my tennis serve.

Also, when I spent some time in the UK, EVERYONE threw like a girl! They just don't tend to favor overhand throwing sports there.

Bucky

[Andy]

beakerxf:
In fact, the *only* time my entire life I have encountered gender discrimination was through sports.

Where do you live?. I'm sure i've seen it occur on an almost daily basis.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Okay, folks, I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to see a cite for the factoid that "female elbows are anatomically different from male elbows." If there's such a notable difference, why is it that one of the first things you hear archaeologists and forensic pathologists say, when they're asked to identify a skeleton, is, "Well, we don't really KNOW whether it's male or female, but we can go by the shape of the pelvis." Then they go on to make what I have always considered to be rather sexist remarks concerning the "fact" that the female pelvis is supposedly more "graceful", more "shaped to hold a baby", which I have always thought was a borderline Urban Legend.

I've watched more than my share of NOVA, "Nature", and Discovery channel episodes, and I've never heard anybody mention differences in elbows. Sounds suspiciously like a "..they say...everybody knows..." thing, just like, "Everybody knows girls can't play baseball."

So, bring it on. I'm from Missouri. Any forensics people or archaeologists out there?

[beakerxf]

beakerxf:
In fact, the *only* time my entire life I have encountered gender discrimination was through sports. [/QUOTE]

Where do you live?. I'm sure i've seen it occur on an almost daily basis.


I lived in a same town in northern Nevada. For my first two years of playing boys and girls played together. Then they started a softball program and completely segregated the two genders.

The differences were quite noticeable between the two leagues. The boys got full uniforms; pants, stirrups, and newer equipment. The girls just got t-shirts and the equipment was obviously cast off. The main problem was that the girls program just didn't attract the same amount of sponsorship money. Not getting equal press time probably didn't help.

When I went back this summer, about 10 years since I played my last game, I noticed that the league was larger. When I had played there was only 4 teams. They now had full uniforms, attracted bigger crowds, and got pretty much the same amount of local coverage.

In some ways, I think it has to do with the equalization of women's sports in the U.S. Aso, at the time I was playing there were a few coaches who were extremely dedicated in getting the program up and running and I noticed that they were still involved, so I'm sure they had something to do with it.

However, I have noticed discrimination even at the college level. I decided to play in the intramural league. They all had few funky rules that were meant to "equal the field between the men and women". In softball, when the men batted, the pitcher used a larger, heavier ball. When the women hit, they switched to a smaller ball. Which seemed kind of silly to mean. After all, girls are raised playing softball, it should be the men who would need the smaller ball.

I also have problems with softball period. I don't think human arms are designed to throw something so unwieldy. I know my shoulder suffered for it.

[beakerxf]

"Well, we don't really KNOW whether it's male or female, but we can go by the shape of the pelvis." Then they go on to make what I have always considered to be rather sexist remarks concerning the "fact" that the female pelvis is supposedly more "graceful", more "shaped to hold a baby", which I have always thought was a borderline Urban Legend.

TV archaeologists. Gotta love 'em. A reputable archaeologist would simply point out that the male pelvis has fused bones in the front, and the female pelvis doesn't so the two sides can be pushed out to allow the baby through. From what I understand that sometimes an forensic archaeologist can also see signs of child birth. I never heard the "more graceful" comment in my Methods and Theory class.

I've never heard anybody mention differences in elbows.

So, bring it on. I'm from Missouri. Any forensics people or archaeologists out there?


Note: I have only taken a few arcahaeology classes so I'm no expert.

If the pelvis is missing, he typical identifying techniques for female skeletons involve the size of the bones, because females tend to be smaller. However, this is not absolute because there are above average women and below average men. Or they'll use the shape of the skull. It's presumed that women have more tapered chins, for example. Throughout all of my studies, I never saw anything that claimed that men and women are mechanically different. Or that you could look at a elbow or shoulder and be able to tell the gender. Now, the center of gravity between men and women is different because of wider hips and breasts, but in my experience, that has never affected any girls' ability to throw a ball.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Thanks, beaker. :)

The "more graceful" comment is usually in the older books, say before about 1975. I hadn't heard that you could just look at the fused bones; maybe they've updated the technology so they can tell more since the last time I looked.

I agree with the point about "TV archaeologists", but I'm also including various murder mysteries, detective stories (Patricia Cornwell, et al), magazine articles, books on archaeology, etc. in my "resources"--just generally a "lifetime of reading". They all mention pelvises as the point of comparison, not elbows.

So--anybody else?

[Jenbo]

I've been accused of this crime many times, and it's true, I can't throw a baseball worth anything, or a frisbee for that matter. Footballs, which seem harder, I can handle. Two reasons for my delinquency:

1. Nobody taught me. Not because I'm a girl, but because my parents aren't athletic AT ALL, and we didn't have neighborhood baseball games where I grew up. My brother started out like me but after some Little League developed a good arm.

2. I don't care! Some might say that girls aren't interested in pointless sports because they're preoccuppied with more important things. I say it's because there are much better sports than baseball. I don't play soccer or run like a girl, because I think those sports are worth the time to play properly.

And before anyone retorts about our american pasttime, I don't hate baseball. I have the same love-hate relationship with it as any other red sox fan.

[FunkDaddy]

A reputable archaeologist would simply point out that the male pelvis has fused bones in the front, and the female pelvis doesn't so the two sides can be pushed out to allow the baby through. From what I understand that sometimes an forensic archaeologist can also see signs of child birth. I never heard the "more graceful" comment in my Methods and Theory class.

What I've learned contradicts (in a small way) what beaver said, but he's done more archaeology than I. If he can give a good source that indicates male pubic bones are fused, I'll bow out. While he said he's no expert, I'll admit I'm just a novice.

I was taught in my Forensic Archaeology class this semester that these "scars of parturition" (the notable pitting at the pubic symphysis) are *not* a valid way to sex a skeleton due to the fact that many women who go through childbirth don't have the pitting, and many men (who obviously, have also never personally experienced childbirth) do have the scars, which are a result of 'insult' to the cartilage between the pubic symphyses (which are not totally fused in either sex, according to my Forensic Anth. textbook).

However, there are plenty of other methods of sexing a skeleton via the pelvic bones - the greater sciatic notch, the subpubic angle (the "v" made by the joining of the pubic bones at the pubic symphesis), etc.

Sorry for the hijack.

[Cardinal]

Going to a big, internationally known church, I get to laugh every year or so at the guys coming through who consider themselves sports-proficient who can't adapt to any of the seemingly dozens of American sports and playtime activities that involve throwing. Apparently no one does it in Europe or South America (Venezuela excepted).

[elelle]

IT'S ALL PRACTICE

I grew up playing baseball and football with the neighborhood boys, and though I was the tiniest girl in the class, could hold my ground with them. My stepfather taught me how to throw both a football and baseball. There was some difficulty because of my small hands, but I was determined, and my dead-on aim often compensated for my lack of muscle. I could triple skip rocks across a pond.

For many summers, I was fused to my baseball glove, and worked hard at mastering it. My biggest dissappointment in elementary school was not being allowed (I had applied & tried hard) to play Little League Baseball. This was in the 70s, and it just wasn't done. I was furious. My immediate neighbor was the best jock in school, and I played with him every day. He even made me promise not to tell the other kids in 6th grade how I could whip his ass in streetball.

In 6th through 8th grade, I played softball. I concur with evilbeth that the softball is a cumbersome beast. I had trouble wrapping my little hands around it, and so my arm suffered. I was a dead-on catch, however. The way I started playing softball was that I went to a CYO practice game with my best pal, who was an excellent athlete; baseball as well as basketball. They were short a player, and I played shortstop, and made a great play, so was asked to join, even though I wasn't Catholic. I was also the pinch-runner, cause I was so quick. Never could hit worth a damn -tiny size again- although I was put in strategically cause my strike zone was such that I'd be balled to first base. And could steal like a demon.

I was lucky to have men who raised me to follow my enthusiasm. My brother was not athletic, and I received all the teaching attention. My younger female cousins have the same grace, and a more even playing field. They are in their teens, and both can play with the best of em. They are tiny too, but make up for it in determination. Nobody ever told em they couldn't.

[beakerxf]

What I've learned contradicts (in a small way) what beaver said, but he's done more archaeology than I.

Hi. Actually it's Beaker, not beaver. And it's "she". :) I seem to have one of those easily misspelled, user names.

If he can give a good source that indicates male pubic bones are fused, I'll bow out. While he said he's no expert, I'll admit I'm just a novice.

Actually my good "source" is pretty much the same as yours. My Methods and Theories class. I took the class last year and recall the teacher mentioning that the symphyses was fused in males. It's possible I misunderstood him and he was actually talking about the greater sciatic notch you mentioned. I've tried to find a link that would provide a source, but apparently pelvises (pelvii?) are not a popular web topic.

I don't have my Methods and Theories text right now. I lent it to a friend and she took it with her to a dig in Turkey.

I'll bow out. You have a text and I only have a memory. The former is obviously more reliable.

[Anti Pro]

It's already been said, but here's a female weighing in with having had an older brother who played football in high school. Jeff made us run plays at home, and if we goofed up he was in our face saying, 'Shape up, this is SERIOUS!' and we'd have to keep at it until we got it! So, the moral is, you have to be taught.

I have two sons now, and I'm grateful for Jeff's overbearing persistance when I was a kid muttering under my breath at 'the dictator', it's paid off big time. I don't 'throw like a girl' (re: inexperience) and I throw a mean frisbee too! Hey Jeff, where ever you are, 'THANKS!'