PDA

View Full Version : Religious couple doesn't know how to have sex and make babies, gets sex therapy.


astro
05-17-2004, 11:11 AM
Is it within the realm of possibility that two people would be this clueless if raised in a strictly religious environment. I have to ask because it just does not seem possible re this story, and my BSometer needle is edging up. Are there really cultural environments (esp in a modern western country like Germany) where this could happen?

Childless couple told to try sex (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_957945.html?menu=news.quirkies.sexlife)

A German couple who went to a fertility clinic after eight years of marriage have found out why they are still childless - they weren't having sex.

The University Clinic of Lubek said they had never heard of a case like it after examining the couple who went to see them last month for fertility tests.

Doctors subjected them to a series of examinations and found they were both apparently fertile, and should have had no trouble conceiving.

A clinic spokesman said: "When we asked them how often they had had sex, they looked blank, and said: "What do you mean?".

"We are not talking retarded people here, but a couple who were brought up in a religious environment who were simply unaware, after eight years of marriage, of the physical requirements necessary to procreate."

The 30-year-old wife and her 36-year-old husband are now being given sex therapy lessons while the university clinic undertakes a study to try to find out if there are more couples with a similar lack of sex education.

Jpeg Jones
05-17-2004, 11:34 AM
What is this 'sex' of which you speak? It intrigues me.

Kalhoun
05-17-2004, 11:45 AM
I imagine the medical examination had to be pretty harrowing for the two of them! :eek:

ivylass
05-17-2004, 11:51 AM
Well, there are some religious sects that ban radio, television, and newspaper. I would guess that there are some societies so isolated from the outside it's conceivable the children would grow up very naive.

But I'm surprised that people growing up in such a society would allow their offspring to get married without telling them...ahem what's supposed to happen on the wedding night.

Can you imagine the discussion? "You want me to put my what where?"

BrotherCadfael
05-17-2004, 11:57 AM
Wasn't there an incident similar to this described in Catch-22?

I seem to recall one character, a doctor, describing a similarly ignorant couple, and he had to tell them how to go about it "using a pair of dolls that he kept locked in separate cabinets to avoid a scandal". A couple of weeks go by, and the husband comes back in, punches out the doctor and leaves without futher explanation.

Or was it one of the M*A*S*H books?

Lord Ashtar
05-17-2004, 12:10 PM
I have a feeling that they are going to suddenly enjoy their marriage a whole lot more.

dangermom
05-17-2004, 12:10 PM
Hm. I'm having a hard time swallowing this one, especially if it's supposed to be set in West Germany (note btw that "Lubeck" should have an umlaut). Assuming that they are in ther early- to mid-30's, they would have had to be homeschooled. In the Northern European countries sex education typically begins as early as age 5 and 6,* though I don't know the specifics for Germany. I suppose perhaps if they grew up in another country--the article doesn't specify whether they're native Germans or immigrants--it's barely concievable (ha!).

Even if they are from another country, it's still hard to believe that neither of them had any clue what they were supposed to do to get babies. Most religious cultures, even ones that don't like young people to know too much about sex, enjoin procreation as an intrinsic part of marriage. After a year or so, you'd think a grandmother or uncle or brother-in-law would have pulled one of them aside and explained things. If they belonged to such a restrictive community, IMO it's fair to imagine that relatives would have started asking them where the babies were before too long.

I've known some naive people, and heard some weird stories, but that's over the top IMO. I just can't see it, and I think it's either an urban legend, some kind of send-up, or there's a lot more to the story. As it stands, I can't buy it.


*"Brigitte has a new little brother. Where did he come from?"

Mister Rik
05-17-2004, 12:25 PM
BrotherCadfael - I just finished reading Catch-22. The scene in question:

Doc Daneeka describing a young childless couple (for those who haven't read the book, this conversation is taking place on a military air base in World War II. Doc Daneeka was drafted to be a military doctor):

"That's the virgin I'm telling you about. They were just a couple of young kids, and they'd been married, oh, a little over a year when they came walking into my office without an appointment ... When I got a good look at her inside my examination room I found she was still a virgin. I spoke to her husband alone while she was pulling her girdle back on and hooking it onto her stockings. 'Every night,' he boasted. A real wise guy, you know. 'I never miss a night,' he boasted. He meant it, too. 'I even been puttin' it to her mornings before the breakfasts she makes me before we go to work,' he boasted. There was only one explanation. When I had them both together again I gave them a demonstration of intercourse with the rubber models I've got in my office. I've got these rubber models in my office with all the reproductive organs of both sexes that I keep locked up in separate cabinets to avoid a scandal. I mean I used to have them. I don't have anything any more, not even a practice. The only thing I have now is this low temperature that I'm really starting to worry about. Those two kids I've got working for me in the medical tent aren't worth a damn as diagnosticians. All they know how to do is complain. They should have been in my office that day with those two newlyweds looking at me as thoght I were telling them something nobody'd ever heard of before. You never saw anybody so interested. 'You mean like this?' he asked me, and worked the models for himself for a while. You know, I can see where a certain type of person might get a big kick out of doing just that. 'That's it,' I told him. 'Now, you go home and try it my way for a few months and see what happens. Okay?' 'Okay,' they said, and paid me in cash without any argument. 'Have a good time,' I told them, and they thanked me and walked out together. He had his arm around her waist as though he couldn't wait to get her home and put it to her again. A few days later he came back all by himself and told my nurse he had to see me right away. As soon as were were alone, he punched me in the nose."

"He did what?"

"He called me a wise guy and punched me in the nose. 'What are you, a wise guy?' he said, and knocked me flat on my ass. Pow! Just like that. I'm not kidding."

Kizarvexius
05-17-2004, 01:42 PM
I have heard of cases in which either a husband or wife (usually the latter) was raised in a strict religious environment and cannot bring themselves to perform sexually due to the unshakable (in their minds) association of sex with sin.

But not knowing how it's done?

Geez, and I thought I was sheltered.

BrotherCadfael
05-17-2004, 01:59 PM
Phase42 -- Thanks. That little fragment is enough to remind me how much I dislike Joe Heller's writing...

Dangerosa
05-17-2004, 03:24 PM
I had a girlfriend who was an eighteen year old senior in high school when we broke "tab A into slot B" to her. She wasn't particularly sheltered. She'd gone through the same sex education in high school as the rest of us - and could name all the correct parts (which was what sex ed was when I was in high school - anatomy - not a how to guide). Had gone to the same rated R movies and listened to the same music.

It seems unbelievable, but if no one told you "penis into vagina" would it be that easy to figure out?

Abbie Carmichael
05-17-2004, 04:14 PM
I'm not sure which is more amazing: that these 2 people didn't know what sex was, or that they found 2 religious people in Germany.

Beadalin
05-17-2004, 04:28 PM
How would something like this wind up in the news, anyway? Doesn't that violate some privacy laws?

FisherQueen
05-17-2004, 04:53 PM
It's entirely possible, in one of the religious groups that tends to shelter its members from too much contact with the outside world. Remember, you're spending most of your social life in church, and often discouraged from watching PG-13 movies or even much television. Most of your friends go to the same church, and if you go to a public school, you're making an effort not to mix too much with the more sinful kids there.

If I may overshare, I grew up in just such a group, and while I understood tab A in slot B at only a little older than my contemporaries, I was 29 before I found out where my clitoris was and what it was for.

Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist
05-17-2004, 05:02 PM
Sounds very much like an urban legend to me.

I recall seeing something very similar on MadTV or SNL.

Lady: We have been having trouble getting pregnant.
Therapist: How long have you been trying?
Man:Years.
Therapist: Well, when you have sex.......
Lady: SEX????
Man: YOU SICKO!!!

Or some such.

ioioio
05-17-2004, 05:24 PM
My BSometer is going off too. Notice that the story has no verifiable sources. I know nothing about the Ananova web site, but it looks to be mostly a collection of entertaining tidbits, not hard news. A Google on "University Clinic of Lubek" turned up nothing; searching on "Lübek" got some results, but I don't know German so can't refine the search to add "university" or "clinic". That the Ananova web site wasn't meticulous enough to use an umlaut makes the site a bit suspect in my mind.
How did the story get released to this particular web site (and nowhere else)?
The University Clinic of Lubek said they had never heard of a case like it after examining the couple who went to see them last month for fertility tests.
Sorry, university clinics can't speak. And if they could, I'm sure they'd use better sentence structure; i.e., they hadn't heard of such a case after examining the couple -- had they heard of such a case before examining the couple? No decent journalist would write like that.

I don't buy the whole thing. People have been figuring out how to have sex without much help for a long, long time.

Siege
05-17-2004, 05:27 PM
I'm not sure which is more amazing: that these 2 people didn't know what sex was, or that they found 2 religious people in Germany.

Oh, I don't know. Considering Germany gave us Martin Luther who in turn gave us Protestantism, not to mention Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frederick Handel, who gave us some of the greatest religious music ever, not to mention that, according to this website (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/germanyg.htm) Germany is 43% Protestant, 34% Catholic, and only 21% non-religious, I'd say it's not at all surprising they found 2 religious people in Germany. Of course, I'd bet that this couple isn't among the Catholic part of the population, and not just because that's the way the odds are, but even that's possible. Come on, lady! People in Germany may speak a different language and have a different culture, but they aren't that different! :rolleyes:

You know, I want very much to be skeptical about this, but a part of me whispers it just might be true. I'm just not entirely sure how. I mean, even if you're not formally taught "Put tab A in slot B", I think people do tend to have an idea of what feels good. Then again, what feels good might have been conflated with sin. I did, after all, read a post once in which a person said masturbation was all right, so long as you didn't feel lust without doing it. (Not on this board, folks.) I've also had periods in my life when I've tried to ignore all signals from "down there" so to speak. Who knows.

Once again, it looks like I'm :sings: Stuck In the Middle With You!

Respectfully,
CJ

Green Cymbeline
05-17-2004, 05:37 PM
I was 29 before I found out where my clitoris was and what it was for.
Hahaha, so I am not the only one! I was about 24 before I figured out how to operate that thing. Before then, I didn't even believe that women had orgasms. :D (And it's not like I was sheltered; heck I'd been having sex since I was 15!)

matt_mcl
05-17-2004, 05:41 PM
I remember reading about a similar case that someone either here or on LJ reported. She was apparently in a class with a woman who was arguing that sex was always wrong, and it ended with the kicker... "My parents didn't have sex; why should I?"

...

"Where do you think you came from?"

*looks at questioner like they're an idiot* "My parents prayed to have me."



Apparently, some of the students explained some things to the poor girl privately afterward.

clairobscur
05-17-2004, 05:47 PM
I read a very similar story in some book. It was supposed to have happened in France during the 60's. Looks like an urban legend to me. I've a hard time believing that anybody living in a western country (and it's not like Germany is the prudest country around) for more than 30 years could have missed such an information. I mean, you hear about sex on TV, on the radio, you read about sex in magazines, in papers, in books. Even if you try to avoid this kind of discussion, you'll come across people talking about sex sooner or later...


On the other hand, as someone put it in another thread today : "if there's one chance in a billion, it happens to 6 men every day"

Eva Luna
05-17-2004, 05:47 PM
Considering Germany gave us Martin Luther who in turn gave us Protestantism, not to mention Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frederick Handel, who gave us some of the greatest religious music ever [snip]


Well, I recall my HS choir director telling us that Bach had 22! kids and literally wore out his first wife, so he seems to have figured out the sex thing just fine.

Thaumaturge
05-17-2004, 05:58 PM
MY question is ( assuming this is not pure BS)......should people who can't this out on their own ever be told? Seems to me that the gene pool would improved by them not finding out. They really couldn't be all that bright.

DMark
05-17-2004, 06:37 PM
Having lived in Germany, where sex is quite open and with no inhibitions, I find this story a bit dubious.

I do know a woman many years ago who worked for Planned Parenthood and gave one woman patient a spermicide in the form of foam. Two months later the patient returned to Planned Parenthood - pregnant. My friend asked her if she had been using the foam method and the woman replied, "for a few days, but it tasted so bad I stopped using it."

Some things have to be explained more carefully to some people.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
05-17-2004, 07:09 PM
Having lived in Germany, where sex is quite open and with no inhibitions, I find this story a bit dubious.

I do know a woman many years ago who worked for Planned Parenthood and gave one woman patient a spermicide in the form of foam. Two months later the patient returned to Planned Parenthood - pregnant. My friend asked her if she had been using the foam method and the woman replied, "for a few days, but it tasted so bad I stopped using it."

Some things have to be explained more carefully to some people.


THIS LINK! A-HEM! (http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/jelly.htm)
:dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious:

RandMcnally
05-17-2004, 09:11 PM
I recall seeing something very similar on MadTV or SNL.

I know what you're talking about. It was Mad TV.

Doctor: Okay, you take your penis and you stick it in her vagina.
Husban: But, I go to the bathroom with that thing.

Mangetout
05-18-2004, 02:43 AM
Parent Power (http://www.geocities.com/mmemym/bits1/fal0017.htm)

/got nothing

Shade
05-18-2004, 05:42 AM
You'd THINK people'd figure it out - I mean, we obviously used to before we invented sex-ed. But I suppose if you're not very experimental...

Hahaha, so I am not the only one! I was about 24 before I figured out how to operate that thing. Before then, I didn't even believe that women had orgasms. :D (And it's not like I was sheltered; heck I'd been having sex since I was 15!)I've never done anything to her clitoris and I'm.. wait, that's not what you meant. Nevermind.

Dogzilla
05-18-2004, 07:18 AM
I'm on the fence but my BS meter is beeping a little.

I just keep thinking of that cheesy movie, The Blue Lagoon. Those were kids stuck on a deserted island. They figured it out.

:: D & R ::

Seriously, I could see it if both were highly religious and members of one of those fundamentalist churches where, even at home, such subjects would never be discussed. I used to worry about some of my Mormon friends who get married as virgins. I'd think, "what if the sex sucks and now they're stuck with that person for ETERNITY?" And then I'd wonder how they figured out what they were supposed to do. Generally, it's probably self-explanatory. Nobody ever had to tell me where the penis went.

Anyway. I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive...

CalMeacham
05-18-2004, 07:45 AM
When I was an undergrad, back in the Jurassic Age, sex researchers Masters and Johnson came and lectured at our school.

They told us an identical story, about a college-educated couple who had failed to conceive, even though they were (literally) sleeping together. They had to be taught about sex.

This was Masters and Johnson, sex researchers, telling us this, as a first-person narrative, not as something that happened to a Friend of a Friend. They had no reason to lie. The scary possibility this raises is that this story is sometimes true.

Einmon
05-18-2004, 08:41 AM
I don't buy the story, either. I googled "Universitätsklinik Lübeck" (which is the correct spelling btw). The only piece of news coming up was that they're now in the process of transgendering a teenager (a first for Germany, don't know whether other countries do that or not).

Seems to me they're a pretty respectable institute, not one where researchers go around telling people about the hilarious stupid religious couple they had in the office today.

And while it's pretty easy to find religious people in Germany, Abbie - I live in Bavaria where about 96% of people are either Catholic or Protestant - I think one would be hard-pressed to find such a sheltered couple (even though there are some pretty sheltered areas in more rural areas around here).

the Lady
05-18-2004, 08:42 AM
Well...a girl I went to university with (honours science student) began acting strangely.
Her roommates (friends of mine) finally sat her down and asked what the hell was wrong. She burst into tears and said she thought she might be pregnant. This seemed rather out of character ("nice" Catholic girl, from a super small town - boyfriend was the same) so they fished for more information. Turns out they had been making out, and he got rather excited and "finished the deed" so to speak. So they asked for a few more details. The key? They were both fully clothed at the time.
They all managed not to laugh at her - and then taught a little remedial sex ed.

cowgirl
05-18-2004, 09:51 AM
Aren't some religious people taught that SEX = EVIL ?

Under such circumtances, it's not like sex would never occur to people - it's just that when it would occur to a teenager, s/he would (if 'successfully' taught) associate it with badness and sin and all those other things.

I guess teaching 'sex = evil' should be accompanied with '... but it has its purposes.'

dangermom
05-18-2004, 09:53 AM
I used to worry about some of my Mormon friends who get married as virgins. I'd think, "what if the sex sucks and now they're stuck with that person for ETERNITY?" And then I'd wonder how they figured out what they were supposed to do. Generally, it's probably self-explanatory. Nobody ever had to tell me where the penis went.You don't realize how much Mormons talk about sex, that's all--where do you think those big families come from, exactly? When we Mormons got married...

-DangerDad was the first boyfriend I had that I didn't have to teach about the Facts of Life. (Former bf's were atheists, btw.) His mother had taught him well. We knew pretty well that we would be compatible before the wedding (but finding out for sure was nice, too).
-My friends were passing around a pile of books that simply went from one wedding to the next. We talked quite openly about what we thought. We each owned our own copies of The joy of sex, though.
-My roomie's mother explained to all of us in great detail what we should do to ourselves pre-wedding in order to have a nice comfy time. We were all given tubes of KY Jelly as a wedding present. ("You won't need this for long, honey, but it helps you be more comfortable the first few times.") This was the same woman who told her kids, much to their TMI-itude, how much she and Dad enjoyed skinny-dipping in their pool and sex on the diving board afterwards.
-Once married, I made it my personal mission to explain the Untold Facts of Life to friends. This was mainly about UTIs and how to avoid and cure them--something many women don't find out until it happens.
-DangerDad asked some newly-wed friends, with a grin, what the best part of being married was. "Are you kidding? The SEX!" they replied in unison. Another friend came back from Christmas laughing about how he and his siblings had gleefully discussed how great sex was now that they were married.
-In conclusion: it does vary, but in general Mormons are expected to know what to do and to enjoy it a lot. Should there be ignorance on the subject, there is a whole row of books in the LDS bookstore explaining just how important it is. IME Mormons are far more open and talkative than most non-LDS would expect--but mostly within their own circles.


BTW on another message board someone posted that they had heard the story years ago. I think with what's in this thread, we can count it as an urban legend.

DeadlyAccurate
05-18-2004, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=dangermom]Once married, I made it my personal mission to explain the Untold Facts of Life to friends. This was mainly about UTIs and how to avoid and cure them--something many women don't find out until it happens.[QUOTE]

I really wish this were taught more to women. To find out how common UTIs are for sexually active women and how to minimize the chance of getting them would've saved me a lot of grief.

zoogirl
05-18-2004, 10:19 AM
I ran into this one way back, late Sixties, early Seventies. I was reading one of those Readers Digest back-of-the-magazine stories. It was probably a condensation of either Intern or The Making of a Surgeon. Anyway, this young couple were trying to concieve with no luck. Turns out, they more or less had the right idea - between her legs - just not actually in. They eventually got it right! I think this was in New York. Of course they were both virgins when they married.

I guess if it felt good they figured it was the real thing.

AngelicGemma
05-18-2004, 11:35 AM
This reminds me of a something that is supposed to have happened many years ago. A young childless couple to go to the doctor to find out why they are still childless. After some discussion it turned out that the couple were having sex, just not the kind you have if you want children. :D

dangermom
05-18-2004, 12:21 PM
I really wish this were taught more to women. To find out how common UTIs are for sexually active women and how to minimize the chance of getting them would've saved me a lot of grief.Oh yeah, that's for sure. When I asked my mom why she had not told me this crucial information, though, it turned out that she'd only ever had one mild one that went away easily, and had no idea they were so common. She didn't even realize that sex was the trigger, so hadn't thought to inform me. I guess she's just lucky or something, 'cause I'm very prone to them and it took me a long time to figure out how to really do a good job preventing them (I need to do more than the standard).

So it's the first thing I tell any girl about to get married. It's my own personal mission in life, to prevent UTIs and spread happiness around the globe. ;)

Dangerosa
05-18-2004, 12:26 PM
A former friend of mine (we lost touch years ago) used to work for one of those nurselines. She had a couple of calls which indicated people could be startling naive about sex, conception, contraception, etc.

One women trying to figure out how the number of days in a month impacted when she conceived. She had two boyfriends and wanted the baby to be the result of the second, so she was trying to work out a counting scheme (do I have to count weekends?) that would change the paternity.....

A gentleman who wanted to know about immaculate conception. See, his girlfriend and he hadn't had sex (nor done enough without clothes on for one of those freak conceptions), but she was pregnant.......

My cousin was the nurse practioner at a Catholic women's college. She can tell some stories as well that indicate not everyone got enough sex education to really understand it all.

Garfield226
05-18-2004, 12:27 PM
Well, I recall my HS choir director telling us that Bach had 22! kids and literally wore out his first wife, so he seems to have figured out the sex thing just fine.


1,124,000,727,777,607,680,000 children would probably wear out most women.

Jpeg Jones
05-18-2004, 01:46 PM
The number of kids Bach had !=1,124,000,727,777,607,680,000.

It's a lot closer to 4!

matt_mcl
05-18-2004, 06:26 PM
This was posted here a while ago and is preserved for posterity on the PoF:

I was reading to my then husband to be out of his marriage and family book to help him study. I read out the top ten myths about sex. When I got to "Oral sex is a perversion." he exploded. "THAT IS NOT A MYTH!! Oral sex is the vilest of pervsions!" and he continued on for some time. When he finally ran out of steam i asked, "What do you think we have been doing for the last month? What do you think oral sex is?"

He had no clue.

DMark
05-18-2004, 06:27 PM
THIS LINK! A-HEM! (http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/jelly.htm)
:dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious:

OK...so it is listed as an Urban Myth, (and here I am the official myth-buster on our office email).

However, the story I related comes from my (very real) friend MaryJane, and her (not her roomate/cousin/neighbor) first job out of college (1972) was for Planned Parenthood in Chicago. MaryJane also told me quite a few other sad stories about her job there. She didn't last long at the position for a lot of reasons.

So - was she pulling my leg? Or was her story for real? I guess I will never know as we lost contact a long time ago.

But considering I can no longer verify her story - I'll drop it from my list of interesting job related tales.

Philster
05-18-2004, 08:51 PM
Neighbors
Religious

As described by him: "If my wife is on top, she considers that dirty sex. She feels like a whore."



Alrighty then....

Shirley Ujest
05-19-2004, 04:12 PM
Neighbors
Religious

As described by him: "If my wife is on top, she considers that dirty sex. She feels like a whore."



Alrighty then....

What is it if this neighbor husband has sex with a pumpkin?


/just curious

Shade
05-19-2004, 04:26 PM
OK...so it is listed as an Urban Myth, (and here I am the official myth-buster on our office email).The snopes link does say: This isn't to say that someone, somewhere hasn't ever mistakenly eaten spermicidal jelly. People do some incredibly foolish things with medical products, no matter how specific the instructions on the packaging may be. But a woman suing a pharmacy because she didn't read the instructions on an over-the-counter contraceptive and mistook it for a food product? No way.So they're not saying it never happens, just that they don't believe any of the specific stories they saw, or that it has ever gone to a lawsuit. If there were any cases not private of someone eating spermicide, snopes'd probably like to hear them.

dangermom
05-19-2004, 05:04 PM
Snopes weighs in (http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/nosex.asp). Undecided as yet, pending more talks with sources, but almost certainly a joke, they say. Keep checking for updates!

Skywatcher
05-19-2004, 05:47 PM
I found the Universitätsklinik Lübeck (http://www.committee-german-medicine.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=90&idart=483) (Lübeck University Hospital) site. No mention of them offering fertility services.

lainaf: next time, try Babelfish (http://world.altavista.com/). :)

Spectre of Pithecanthropus
05-19-2004, 07:00 PM
Oh, I don't know. Considering Germany gave us Martin Luther who in turn gave us Protestantism, not to mention Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frederick Handel, who gave us some of the greatest religious music ever, not to mention that, according to this website (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/germanyg.htm) Germany is 43% Protestant, 34% Catholic, and only 21% non-religious, I'd say it's not at all surprising they found 2 religious people in Germany. Of course, I'd bet that this couple isn't among the Catholic part of the population, and not just because that's the way the odds are, but even that's possible. Come on, lady! People in Germany may speak a different language and have a different culture, but they aren't that different! :rolleyes:


CJ

True, but their Chancellor doesn't end every public speech with God bless Germany!. Nor, AFAIK does any other First World political leader, except Dubya. So we Americans get the possibly mistaken impression that such a scenario as described in the OP could only happen here.

iampunha
05-20-2004, 01:56 AM
Aren't some religious people taught that SEX = EVIL ?

Other than the premarital sex=sin/other bad stuff, you've got the Shakers, which the lovely history book informed me that the Shakers are a group that believe any sex is evil or unnecessary or something like that. However, they're not exactly in the majority (for reasons which are really pretty obvious).

Bites When Provoked
05-20-2004, 08:17 AM
Just a thought... whether this story is true or not, it could be quite feasible for a religious couple not to know how to have sex.

I've known quite a few religious folks whose church arranged their marriage, and nothing I've seen would indicate that either one is attracted to the other.

If you haven't got sufficient urge to perform the deed, and/or are inhibited on religious grounds from exploring those dirty thoughts, you probably won't work out how it's done. ;)

Marley23
05-20-2004, 08:23 AM
If you haven't got sufficient urge to perform the deed, and/or are inhibited on religious grounds from exploring those dirty thoughts, you probably won't work out how it's done. ;)
Come on now, sex is very uncomplicated. Insert Tab A into Slot B.* Even if you've never seen the genitals of the opposite sex, you can pretty much figure out for yourself what's going on.

*Doing it RIGHT is another story.*

Bites When Provoked
05-20-2004, 08:32 AM
I should, perhaps, point out that 'quite a few' is a bit misleading there.

It's not so much 'quite a few' as 'all the ones I actually know, which happens to be 3 couples (one set is only engaged at present)'.

Bites When Provoked
05-20-2004, 08:50 AM
Come on now, sex is very uncomplicated. Insert Tab A into Slot B.* Even if you've never seen the genitals of the opposite sex, you can pretty much figure out for yourself what's going on.


At the risk of giving TMI, I know that it's not quite that simple.

When my first boyfriend and I were together, we *knew* the mechanics of the deal, but every time we tried to have sex I'd freeze up and there was no way, no how, he was getting in there.

It took us months (yes, months) to get me to not do the big muscle-freezing thing. What can I say - he was unbelievably tolerant. ;) Great guy, too.

However (she said, getting back on track), I'm thinking that if you didn't know the mechanics of it, and you couldn't get Tab A into Slot B when you tried, you'd pretty much figure that wasn't how it worked, wouldn't you?

Just a thought. :)

JRDelirious
05-20-2004, 09:17 AM
However (she said, getting back on track), I'm thinking that if you didn't know the mechanics of it, and you couldn't get Tab A into Slot B when you tried, you'd pretty much figure that wasn't how it worked, wouldn't you?

Just a thought. :)

But a very good one -- if people tell them "do what comes naturally", I can picture them figuring that if this is not working right, then this must not be what they meant. Specially in societies where we may not be quite as in touch with how nature really works (e.g. I have a hard time thinking that old-time farmboys/farmgals would not have a chance to notice exactly what it takes to make little calves/lambs/colts/puppies.)

Still, we want to believe it must be because of some religious proscription (often tied in with a foreign ethnicity, or with a less-than-sophisticated background) because it plays into our preconceived notions.

CalMeacham
05-20-2004, 09:40 AM
Still, we want to believe it must be because of some religious proscription (often tied in with a foreign ethnicity, or with a less-than-sophisticated background) because it plays into our preconceived notions.


Perhaps for the OP, but in the case Madters and Johnson told us about, there was no cultural baggage of these people being foreign, especially religious, or a member of any particular race or class (except that they were "otherwise well-educated")

Guinastasia
05-20-2004, 08:10 PM
100 years ago, this could probably have happened (In all those royalty biographies I'm always reading, there's always the story of the sheltered princess who, on her wedding night, is traumatized by what truly happens when one gets married!).

Fifty years ago, perhaps not so common, but possible.

But today? That's just...I mean, MAYBE if you were living in some real backwater part of some third world country under maybe say, the Taliban, I guess it could happen.

But I'm still skeptical.

Still, there are a LOT of idiots out there when it comes to sex. The sex question forum from the old SAAN boards (Ho in the Know) used to get all kinds of goofy, off the wall threads.

Oh the hilarity!

JRDelirious
05-21-2004, 08:18 PM
But today? That's just...I mean, MAYBE if you were living in some real backwater part of some third world country under maybe say, the Taliban[...]
Or they could just not be paying attention. I've stopped being surprised by what people get wrong as a result of having caught only glimpses of fractional information. As mentioned above, it may well be likelier that these are cases wherre the parties know they have to do something, but get it all wrong as to how. (Heck, even those who nominally know the mechanics need refreshers on the details -- The Joy of Sex wouldn't sell a jillion copies if everyone knews exactly what s/he was doing) As Khiadra said, a couple may be under the impression that whatever the procreative act is, it should be easy, painless, clean, fresh-scented and pleasurable right from the 00:00:00.001-second mark, and anything that takes toil, sweat and tears to achieve must not be it.

griffen2
05-22-2004, 01:17 PM
Read your own link Bosda


This isn't to say that someone, somewhere hasn't ever mistakenly eaten spermicidal jelly. People do some incredibly foolish things with medical products, no matter how specific the instructions on the packaging may be.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
05-22-2004, 01:53 PM
Read your own link BosdaSo what?

There's a 1 in 10,000 chance it happened, & a much better chance it did not.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the likeliest option is correct.

"When you hear the sound of hoofbeats, look for horses, not for zebras."

Guinastasia
05-22-2004, 04:05 PM
Or they could just not be paying attention. I've stopped being surprised by what people get wrong as a result of having caught only glimpses of fractional information. As mentioned above, it may well be likelier that these are cases wherre the parties know they have to do something, but get it all wrong as to how. (Heck, even those who nominally know the mechanics need refreshers on the details -- The Joy of Sex wouldn't sell a jillion copies if everyone knews exactly what s/he was doing) As Khiadra said, a couple may be under the impression that whatever the procreative act is, it should be easy, painless, clean, fresh-scented and pleasurable right from the 00:00:00.001-second mark, and anything that takes toil, sweat and tears to achieve must not be it.


You'd have to be REALLY not paying attention, I would think.

I mean, it IS possible, but unlikely.

Zjestika
05-22-2004, 09:11 PM
What I find weirdest about the story is that the clinic spokesperson said, "We're not talking about retarded people," and the Snopes link has the spokesperson saying "We're not talking retards."

What kind of spokesperson would say "retards"?!?!

ZJ

dangermom
05-22-2004, 10:38 PM
A fictional one, perhaps?

Lamia
05-22-2004, 11:13 PM
100 years ago, this could probably have happened (In all those royalty biographies I'm always reading, there's always the story of the sheltered princess who, on her wedding night, is traumatized by what truly happens when one gets married!).Didn't that happen to Empress Elisabeth of Austria?

Actually, it wasn't just princesses who had this problem. As you may know, Elisabeth's cousin Ludwig II of Bavaria ascended the throne at the age of 18 apparently ignorant of sex. According to the accounts of members of the court, he thought women got pregnant by sleeping in the same bed as their husbands, and didn't understand what it meant for a child to be illegitimate or what rape was. Even 140 years ago this was considered surprising and funny to everyone who heard about it, though.

I can't buy that a modern European couple would have been trying to conceive by sleeping chastely in the same bed, but I could believe that they could be uninformed enough that, like the couple zoogirl mentioned, they thought some kind of sex act not involving vaginal penetration would do the trick. The phrase "between her legs" is often used in discussing sex, and some people may be confused enough to take this literally.

Guinastasia
05-23-2004, 01:21 AM
I can't remember if it happened to Elisabeth, but it wouldn't surprise me. Poor Ludwig-he and his brother both ended up going insane.

According to a book I have [i]Royal Babylon[/b] (I cannot vouch for the accuracy, since it's mostly a tongue in cheek book about scandals and royalty), Queen Marie Henrietta of Belgium didn't learn until she got married, and then the same thing happened to her daughter Louise, who ran away in the middle of the night and was found by a servant, hiding in the palace gardens. (Later on she was forced into an insane asylum by her tyrant of a father, Leopold II when she ran off with her lover and refused to return to her husband).

And another, in 1898, the nineteen year old Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg was made pregnant by her footman. Her parents had not told her the facts of life and when this happened, instead of realizing their mistake, had her kicked out.

dangermom
05-23-2004, 01:47 AM
Another example of princessly ignorance is Anne of Cleves, who was married to Henry VIII for a short time. He found her repulsive (she had terrible body odor, for one thing), never consummated the marriage, and Anne didn't realize anything was wrong until a lady-in-waiting explained a bit more.

It's not all that tough to believe that girls might remain ignorant if sheltered enough--though most figure it out somehow--but how many boys (besides poor Ludwig, who had enough problems) manage to get to their wedding night completely ignorant? Historically, men are expected to know what to do, even if the women don't. Even in the most repressive cultures. I bet even under the Taliban, boys were still informed somehow or other.

Soapbox Monkey
05-23-2004, 01:59 AM
So it's the first thing I tell any girl about to get married. It's my own personal mission in life, to prevent UTIs and spread happiness around the globe. ;)

Umm...maybe I just didn't learn enough in sex ed but...what are UTIs?

Lamia
05-23-2004, 05:46 AM
It's not all that tough to believe that girls might remain ignorant if sheltered enough--though most figure it out somehow--but how many boys (besides poor Ludwig, who had enough problems) manage to get to their wedding night completely ignorant? Historically, men are expected to know what to do, even if the women don't. Even in the most repressive cultures. I bet even under the Taliban, boys were still informed somehow or other.I would suspect that Ludwig's case was partially one of willful ignorance. Aside from an extremely sheltered and isolated upbringing (strict Catholic at that), he was almost certainly homosexual and so probably had little natural curiosity about the kinds of things men and women might want to do together in the bedroom. An equally sheltered straight teenaged boy of the era probably would have been curious enough to seek out someone to give him a clue.

Historically though, it's been rare for boys to be brought up in such a sheltered environment. Upper and even middle-class girls were often kept at home with little chance to interact with outsiders, and if their mothers didn't give them the Straight Dope they might not have anyone else to go to. (Although I like to think that in most cases more worldly housekeepers and maids explained things to girls whose sexual education was neglected by their mothers.) Boys more commonly went to school or some sort of job training and must have had plenty of opportunity to hear about the birds and bees from other young men even if dear ol' dad didn't want to discuss it.

Futile Gesture
05-23-2004, 10:05 AM
Aside from an extremely sheltered and isolated upbringing (strict Catholic at that), he was almost certainly homosexual

:dubious: Got a cite for that??? I've heard wild, unsupported claims on this, but certainly nothing anywhere near convincing or certain.

As to the OP. Definite urban myth. Despite anything they may feel or say about sex, religious organisations have somehow managed to struggle through successive generations. You don't do that by keeping wedded adults totally ignorant of sex.

Nor does fertility treatment get all the way through examinations and results before someone thinks to mention sex.

Biggirl
05-23-2004, 10:44 AM
Umm...maybe I just didn't learn enough in sex ed but...what are UTIs?
Urinary Tract Infections

Lamia
05-23-2004, 11:01 AM
:dubious: Got a cite for that??? I've heard wild, unsupported claims on this, but certainly nothing anywhere near convincing or certain.What kind of cite do you want? I can't produce a letter from the guy saying "By the way, I'm as gay as a day in May", and there's a limit to how accurately we can place historic figures into modern sexual orientation categories anyway. But when it comes to Ludwig II my fairly extensive research has at left me personally with no doubts, and I think all of the serious biographies of Ludwig II at least acknowledge the possibility. (The theory that Ludwig was secretly in love with Empress Elisabeth has much less support and doesn't seem to be taken seriously by any modern scholars, unless you count those writing the books sold at Bavarian souvenier stands.) His lifelong lack of romantic interest in women was noted, with some concern, by his family and the court, as was his fondness for good-looking young men. During his lifetime he was rumored to suffer from some form of sexual abnormality, be it impotence or...something more unusual. Allegations of strange gay orgies were included amongst the evidence in the psychological report declaring Ludwig insane. These stories were at best lurid exaggerations of the facts, but they were apparently considered within the realm of plausibility at the time.

I think it's possible, perhaps even likely, that the poor guy never actually got laid at all. That he never had sex with a woman is about as clear as such a thing can be. If he ever had sex with a man then there is no surviving evidence of this, and it would have been to the government's advantage if they'd been able to produce a man willing to say that he'd slept with or at least been propositioned by the king. Some passages in the published "Ludwig diaries" (which are of somewhat questionable authenticity anyway) that have been interpreted as referring to his guilt over his gay sex life read more like guilt about masturbating to me. But judging from his verifiable personal writings, any romantic thoughts he ever had were about other men.

Guinastasia
05-23-2004, 11:19 AM
Futile Gesture-where have you been? Most historians I've read have concluded that Ludwig was gayer than a picnic basket.

It's pretty much a given. He may have deeply admired Elisabeth-from all I've read, they were very close and they both suffered from schizophrenia, I think.

But Ludwig was almost certainly interested in men.

"Not that there's anything wrong with THAT."

Lamia
05-23-2004, 11:39 AM
It's pretty much a given. He may have deeply admired Elisabeth-from all I've read, they were very close and they both suffered from schizophrenia, I think.
To continue this Wittelsbach hijack (once I get going on the Wittelsbacks I can't stop!), the symptoms of Otto's madness seem consistent with schizophrenia. It's possible that Ludwig and Elisabeth were schizophrenic as well, but I think it's more likely that both were primarily suffering from bipolar disorder. Of course, their upbringing alone might have been enough to screw up even people with perfectly healthy brain chemistry. In Ludwig's case the matter is also complicated by the fact that he suffered from terrible headaches and self-medicated with the popular painkillers of the time -- alcohol and opiates. Some have also speculated that he may have suffered from organic neurological problems caused by anything from syphilis to brain tumors.

Guinastasia
05-23-2004, 07:52 PM
I knew it was something like that. I wasn't sure whether or not it was bipolar or schizophrenia.

bonzer
05-28-2004, 04:24 PM
As a follow-up to the version reported in the Mirror that's the subject of the Snope's page, it's worth noting that the print edition of this week's Private Eye (http://www.private-eye.co.uk/) has a story casting a quizzical eye over this version:


The story was written by Berlin-based freelancer Allan Hall. When the Eye contacted Hall to ask where the story came from he snapped: "It was in Bild am Sonntag [a German tabloid] and the Medical Tribune." Er, no. There was a recent story about a Lubeck couple who sought fertility treatment in the German Medical Tribune, but the cause of their celibacy was erectile dysfunction, not ignorance. Bild am Sonntag actually reported the story fairly accurately, quoting "potenzprobleme" as the cause. He quickly changed his story to "someone at the clinic told me."

The rest of the item concerns another story where Hall's passed off a dodgy version.