Acupuncture for a dog? Can this work?

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

My parents have a dog that has hip problems and the vet suggested they go to a dog acupuncturist. Is there any chance this could help? Isn't acupuncture just one step above voodoo?

[Hello Again]

The complete literature on (human) acupuncture can be found here:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/cbm/acupuncture.html

(nih.gov is the National Institute of Health).

knock yourself out.

[Metacom]

My parents have a dog that has hip problems and the vet suggested they go to a dog acupuncturist. Is there any chance this could help?
If your parents think it will, then they'll likely notice signs of improvement in the dog and feel better about it, but ultimately the dog is gonna be in the same boat as it was previously (unless it's injured or gets an infection from the accupuncture treatment--then it'll be worse off).
Isn't acupuncture just one step above voodoo?
Yes.

[VunderBob]

Satisfied k-9 acupuncture client checking in.

I have an elderly Boxer with arthritic knees. She got a couple months of acupuncture treatments about 2 years ago, and they helped when she was getting them. We've since moved because of a layoff and job change, and those are the reasons we're not doing it now.

Acupuncture does work for pain relief, but when you have a chronic orthopedic problem, it's not permanent. She was getting a treatment every 2 weeks, and the effect of any one treatment was good for about 3. We give her Rimadyl now, which is an NSAID like Aleve, but only for veterinary use.

Acupuncture is good for pain and other syndromes directly involving the nervous system, such as spasms. When it's touted as a treatment for something else, say diabetes, it's bullshit. If you folks' dog has something like dysplasia, it won't fix the hip problem, but they probably will see a quantifiable improvement. It will only be around as long as the dog continues to be treated.

Some dogs (and people) it won't work on. That's a fact of life, and it has to do with nerve placements within the body. I'm a tough recipient of pressure point attacks in martial arts because some of my nerves aren't located in the right places.

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

If acupuncture is just going to be used for pain, why wouldn't pills be a better idea? Also, if acupunture is just treating the pain without treating the underlying problems, won't the dog's uderlying problems just get worse?

I also found two articles on acupuncture (one of which is by Cecil Adams).

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

[VunderBob]

If acupuncture is just going to be used for pain, why wouldn't pills be a better idea? Also, if acupunture is just treating the pain without treating the underlying problems, won't the dog's uderlying problems just get worse?


You asked if it works, and I answered with anecdotal evidence that it did in my dog's case. I'm quite the skeptic, too.

Rimadyl comes a lot cheaper.

[NurseCarmen]

Kel Varnsen - Latex Division,

Off topic, but that's a hell of a name. I'm strangely intrigued. What's it mean?

[Blake]

Isn't acupuncture just one step above voodoo?

No. Accupuncture has been subjected to controlled, double-blind tests and shown to work in some cases. The medical community is still divided on the issue but contrray to what Cecil says there is reputable evidence for its effectiveness.

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

Accupuncture has been subjected to controlled, double-blind tests and shown to work in some cases. The medical community is still divided on the issue but contrray to what Cecil says there is reputable evidence for its effectiveness.

Cite? How can acupunture be subjected to a double-blind tests?


Off topic, but that's a hell of a name. I'm strangely intrigued. What's it mean?

It is from Seinfeld.

GEORGE: Now, listen closely. I was at the unemployment office and I told them that I was very close
to getting a job with Vandaley Industries and I gave them your phone number. So, when now when the phone
rings you've got to answer "Vanadaley Industries".

JERRY: I'm Vanadaley Industries?

GEORGE: Right.

JERRY: And what is that?

GEORGE: You're in latex

JERRY: Latex? And what do I do with latex?

GEORGE: Ya manufacture it.

<snip>

JERRY: Vandaley Industries, Kel Varnsen speaking. May we help?

http://www.stanthecaddy.com/the-boyfriend-part-1-script.html

[commasense]

The Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com) (which starts this report with a quote from Unca Cece!) points out here (http://www.skepdic.com/acupunc.html) that:

Traditional Chinese medicine is not based on knowledge of modern physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, anatomy, or any of the known mechanisms of healing. Nor is it based on knowledge of cell chemistry, blood circulation, nerve function, or the existence of hormones or other biochemical substances. There is no correlation between the meridians used in traditional Chinese medicine and the actual layout of the organs and nerves in the human body. The National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) claims that of the 46 medical journals published by the Chinese Medical Association, not one is devoted to acupuncture or other traditional Chinese medical practices.
...

The most frequently offered defense of acupuncture by its defenders commits the pragmatic fallacy. It is argued that acupuncture works! What does this mean? It certainly does not mean that sticking needles into one's body opens up blocked chi. At most, it means that it relieves some medical burden. Most often it simply means that some customer is satisfied, that is, feels better at the moment.
...

There are difficulties that face any study of pain. Not only is pain measurement entirely subjective, but traditional acupuncturists evaluate success of treatment almost entirely subjectively, relying on their own observations and reports from patients, rather than objective laboratory tests. Furthermore, many individuals who swear by acupuncture (or therapeutic touch, reiki, iridology, meditation, mineral supplements, etc.) often make several changes in their lives at once, thereby making it difficult to isolate significant causal factors in a control group study.
No disrespect, but IMO it's the placebo effect, even when the patient's a dog.

[Blake]

Cite? How can acupunture be subjected to a double-blind tests?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14693608
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12237186

Methinks Unca Cece needs to update his column. There has been quite a bit of research done on acupuncture that suggests it works. Of course a lot also suggests it doesn’t.

I’m prepared to keep an open mind. Just because the use of quinine bark to treat malaria isn’t based on scientific physiology doesn’t prove that quinine bark can’t treat malaria effectively. Ditto for acupuncture.

Skepticism is a good thing. Knee jerk rejection of everything unconventional is not scepticism and not a good thing.

[Metacom]

I’m prepared to keep an open mind. Just because the use of quinine bark to treat malaria isn’t based on scientific physiology doesn’t prove that quinine bark can’t treat malaria effectively. Ditto for acupuncture.
Out of curiosity, do you have a cite for the "the use of quinine isn't based on scientific physiology" bit? From what I understand, drugs based on quinine are still used to treat malaria--I'd be genuinely shocked if their mechanism wasn't understood. So shock me with a cite. ;)

[Blake]

You misunderstand me. People were using quinine bark to treat malaria for millennia before the word physiology even existed. It had no basis in physiology but that didn’t mean it didn’t work. All sorts of things can work without the practitioners knowing exactly why.

To me it seems incredibly narrow minded to conclude that something doesn’t work just because it isn’t based on scientific physiology.

[Kegg]

I worked with, and am still in contact with a vet accupuncturest (if that is a word)
She was one of the first in our area (S.F. Bay) and I was VERY doubtfull. However when my dog had spinal problems, she got accupuncture and recovered. However she had relapses and had to have more treatment. She would recover, but not as good as before the relapse. She reached a point where she didn't respond at all. THERE IS NO PLACEBO EFECT WITH AN ANIMAL . If they feel better they show it. The jury is still out on animal animal skeliton manipulation in my book, but accupuncture does work in some cases of pain.
_________________________________________________
Spelling and grammer subject to change without notick.

[Metacom]

THERE IS NO PLACEBO EFECT WITH AN ANIMAL . If they feel better they show it.
No, but there is a placebo effect on the owner. How good she felt was based on your perception of it, which could very well have been affected by a "placebo" type mechanism. I see this all the time when I talk to dog people who swear by homeopathic remedies...

[vetbridge]

I am not at the office, so I do not have a cite at hand. However, let me say that I do not in general have much positive to say about "alternative medical practices".

That said, accupuncture has been shown through peer reviewed papers to have an effect in dealing with a few very specific pathologies, including coxofemoral osteoarthritis.

If acupuncture is just going to be used for pain, why wouldn't pills be a better idea? Also, if acupunture is just treating the pain without treating the underlying problems, won't the dog's uderlying problems just get worse?

Well, treating the underlying cause of coxofemoral degenerative joint disease can be done via total hip joint replacement. Some folks have trouble financing such a surgery (5-10 K).

And "pain pills" have drawbacks, including change in mentation, renal problems, gastrointestinal problems, etc.