How is a group of Welsh thugs attacking an Englishman a "racist" attack?

[astro]

Racists left me for dead (http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/sundaysun/news/tm_objectid=14288871%26method=full%26siteid=50081%26headline=racists%2dleft%2dme%2dfor%2ddead-name_page.html)

[ruadh]

Because race is a social construct, and therefore it's up to each society to define what it means. It so happens that in Britain, "Welsh" and "English" are sometimes defined as "races".

[Kal]

The definition of race over here includes skin colour, ethnic origin and nationality, IIRC.

That the attackers and victim are, I assume, all white doesn't come into it, they guy was attacked for being English.

If you define race in a stricter sense, it's still a racist attack because the attackers are Celtic and the victim Anglo-Saxon.

[Duke]

It so happens that in Britain, "Welsh" and "English" are sometimes defined as "races". By who, exactly? Not even my Plaid Cymru friends back at Coleg Jesu would go so far as to define the Welsh and English as distinct races. Distinct nations or peoples, yes, but hardly "races."

[ruadh]

Well, by Sun writers obviously, for one thing.

[Mk VII]

any incident alleged by the victim to be racially motivated is now required to be investigated as such - result of the McPherson Enquiry into the Stephen Lawrence murder.

[Kal]

Here ya go, from here: (http://www.cre.gov.uk/legaladv/rra.html)

The Race Relations Act 1976, as amended by the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000, makes it unlawful to discriminate against anyone on grounds of race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origin.

[UrbanChic]

Note to self: don't speak ill of leeks in Scotland. They *really* like their leeks.

[GorillaMan]

Note to self: don't speak ill of leeks in Scotland. They *really* like their leeks.

No, it's the Welsh who like their leeks. And sheep.

[UrbanChic]

Right, then. Change Scotland to Wales and Bob's your uncle. Or some such rubbish.

[betenoir]

Right, then. Change Scotland to Wales and Bob's your uncle. Or some such rubbish.

Quite. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.24carat.co.uk/images/1985poundsilverproofwelshleekrev240.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.24carat.co.uk/1985pound.html&h=242&w=240&sz=19&tbnid=RjUpZ5XTQI4J:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dleek%2Bcoin%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG

Amoungst Scots, on the other hand, do not speak ill of the thistle

[CalH]

Screw thistle. You thistle-eating weirdos. You bunch of Scottish thistle eating hooligans. There I said it. I hate thistle. THISTLE THISTLE THISTLE. I'll even mangle the spelling. THISLTE. Ha Ha Ha. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Duke]

The Race Relations Act 1976, as amended by the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000, makes it unlawful to discriminate against anyone on grounds of race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origin. Thanks for the reference, Kal. From a strictly historical standpoint, I find the law strange--but, if it streamlines discrimination prosecution, so be it.

[GorillaMan]

From a strictly historical standpoint,...
Sorry if it seems like a stupid question.....but what do you mean by this?

[Duke]

Well, because there has been so much migration and intermarriage between Wales and England over the last thousand years or so that it's difficult to claim that the two "races" have any distinct meaning any more. (Exhibit A: my ex-wife, who had a Welsh mother and an English father. But I digress.)

Now if you were looking at it from a cultural standpoint, I could see that. But the history of the Welsh and English are so intertwined to make historical, possibly even genetic, distinctions meaningless.

[GorillaMan]

The law does not work from a historical standpoint - it concentrates on how things are perceived in society today. I don't think anybody is claiming historical or genetic purpose behind the definition - it is all about culture.

[BwanaBob]

It's all about culture? How did culture get so elevated?

If a bunch of thugs beat me up because they don't like the way I walk that's okay
but if they beat me up because I have an accent it becomes "racist" and therefore
more heinous a crime? :rolleyes:

[ruadh]

We're not arguing the legitimacy of hate crime legislation, BwanaBob.

If a non-hispanic beats up a hispanic for being hispanic, even if they're both technically the same "race" under the Caucausoid-Mongoloid-Negroid theory, is that a "racist" crime? Most people would say yes. And that's the proper analogy to the OP.

[Duke]

The law does not work from a historical standpoint - it concentrates on how things are perceived in society today. Oh, I know that...that's why I have no real problem with the law. I just find it strange, that's all.

And I also have no problem with Wales and England being considered distinct societies. But I would find it similarly odd to call, say, Englishmen and Frenchmen different "races." But, as you say, that's what the Race Relations Act would say.

[Duke]

If a non-hispanic beats up a hispanic for being hispanic, even if they're both technically the same "race" under the Caucausoid-Mongoloid-Negroid theory, is that a "racist" crime? Most people would say yes. And that's the proper analogy to the OP. "Most people" might, but, according to many branches in the US government, Hispanic origin is considered "ethnicity," not race. For example, in this study of Census Bureau data by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. (http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/census/race_ethnic_data.html) Granted, as in this document, race and ethnicity are lumped together, but there does seem to be a distinction there.

[GorillaMan]

I guess The Race, Colour, Nationality, Citizenship, Ethnic and National Origin Relations Act was a bit long-winded :D

[Bippy the Beardless]

This raises some issues more...
From UK perspective, what if someone from Yorkshire beats up someone from Lancashire because they are Lancastrian? Or a Scouser beats up a Geordie (sp?) Or a Glaswegian beats up someone from Edinbourgh?

All these would be hate crimes stemming from long lasting disputes, yet occur between people of the same country. There seems to me a reason to define hate crimes according to the nature of the crime independantly of the social difference between the two parties involved, whether it is nationality, race, sexuality, social position, political belief, religion or any other such distinction. Hate crime seem to me crime against another because of what group they belong too, not against the victim directly for anything the victim has done.

[ruadh]

"Most people" might, but, according to many branches in the US government, Hispanic origin is considered "ethnicity," not race.

I know that. I'm just saying that the average person on the street wouldn't lift an eyebrow if the term "race" was used.

[Miller]

Right, then. Change Scotland to Wales and Bob's your uncle. Or some such rubbish.

But, surely Bjorn Stronginthearm is my uncle?

[Magiver]

Right, then. Change Scotland to Wales and Bob's your uncle. Or some such rubbish.
"Bob's your uncle"? I've guessed that to mean "and that's that" but I don't understand the origin. It does have a certain ring to it in the English language.

[sjc]

Historically, race has often referred to what we would now call culture or ethnicity. Or rather, culture and ethnicity were seen as stemming (at least in part) from race.

A professor in a class of mine once gave us a quote from Benjamin Fanklin (or possibly Thomas Jefferson, but I think it was Franklin) in which he compared the German, French, and British "races", making comments on their skin color and racial tendencies. It seemed pretty clear to me that he thought of these different European groups as distinct races. Perhaps he didn't think of race in quite the same way as most people do today, but the quote seemed to indicate he thought about it in a relatively similar way.

The point being that the concept of race is quite flexible.

[GorillaMan]

"Bob's your uncle"? I've guessed that to mean "and that's that" but I don't understand the origin. .
You guessed correct :)

[Small Clanger]

. . .the attackers are Celtic and the victim Anglo-Saxon.Well, my mother is Welsh and my dad is English so that makes me? Guess I'll just have to beat my self up ow! ow!

All the British races are so mixed up these distinctions can't really be valid. Lots of us have probably got some Roman genes, and Viking (whatever they are) and what about the Jutes(sp)? Don't I remember the Jutes turned up with the Angls and Saxons? And there's the mysterious Beaker people :) Apologies to history buffs as a historian I make a good engineer.

It may be legalese but I think using the term "racially motivated" for crimes or predjudices between people who are patentley of the same race is not a helpful use of language.

[ruadh]

But they aren't "patently" of the same race. You've missed the whole point. It isn't about bloodlines anymore; it's about recognised cultural distinctions. And there still is, clearly, one between the English and the Welsh.

It's certainly arguable that the whole notion of "race" isn't helpful, but as long as it's still in usage, it's no less valid to use it for this distinction than for black/white/Asian etc.

[Small Clanger]

Argh... I never post expecting to be taken so seriously, I'm really just agreeing with Duke

As for cultural distinctions:
Certainly on my mum's side of the family I have plenty of relatives that you'd have a hard time pinning down as definitely Welsh or English. Even my mum who at home (in London) sounds like Margo Ledbetter, when she's back in the old country or surounded by Welsh relatives starts reverting to a Welsh accent.

It would be useful if the media (and everyone else) would make a distinction between racial prejudice (most obviously skin colour) and cultural prejudice (say Catholic/Protestant*). The fact that they often overlap/coincide does not make them the same thing. I'd say the Welsh English divide -such as it is- is cultural, it's probably pretty much a class thing rich/poor rather than black/white.

Wow, that's a long post for me. I like to sit on the fence usually, what with being a half-breed'n'all.

*BTW at what point does "sectarian" prejudice become interchangable with "racial"? (I'm thinking Western/Arab vs Christian/Muslim) Maybe that's a whole new thread...

[GorillaMan]

Part of the reason of it being talked about is terms of 'race' is simply that it is covered by 'race relations' legislation - nothing to do with the media.

As for sectarianism - my interpretation would be that it involves a divide between two sections of a single religion - Protestan/Catholic, Sunni/Shia, etc.

[Gary T]

Look up "race" in the dictionary and you'll see that the looser definition(s) apply nicely to the usage being discussed. Just because one might personally tend to think of a stricter definition doesn't mean that the other definitions are invalid.

[fortytwo]

"Bob's your uncle"? I've guessed that to mean "and that's that" but I don't understand the origin. It does have a certain ring to it in the English language.

The most convincing theory of its origin to me is this one here (http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-bob1.htm) . There are others.
I used to use this saying myself, but not since the Blackadder series. :)