Musicians - why so LOUD?

[Fillet]

This weekend some friends and I decided we would go have lunch & a couple of beers at a lakeside restaurant. The restaurant had a great band playing Caribbean music - lots of fun! Except for the fact that I was practically shouting at the top of my lungs so that the friend sitting next to me could hear me. I've been in similar situations before - live entertainment at a restaurant, and especially at weddings - where the day was marred by the fact that the music was so loud you couldn't carry on a simple conversation without straining your voice.

Now, if I'm going somewhere specifically to see a band, I'm happy if they crank it up. But when the music is more for atmosphere, I can't stand it being that loud. I realize there are considerations relating to making sure the music reaches all corners of an establishment, but there is something seriously wrong when you can clearly hear the music more than 120 yards away and most of the restaurant patrons are sitting within 15 yards of the band.

Since this seems to be a common phenomenon (at least in my experience), I ask the musicians among us - is there a technical limitation on the lowest volume an amplifier can be set to, so that bands are forced to play loudly under any circumstance? Or do you folks just like to play that way?

[sailor]

I totally agree with you and have often decided not to stay at some place if the music is excessively loud. My only explanation is ignorance. It's like air conditioning in the Summer: let's show the people we have it!

[Silo]

Well when I play live I have a tube amplifier. The more you crank it up, the better it sounds. This more for a concert situation though. I totally agree that in a resturant the degree of loudness should be at a level where you can talk to the people around you without yelling. Complain to the resturant about it. Tell them you like the music but the volume is TOO loud. And if they choose to do nothing about it go somewhere else. I don't know what more to say.

[Ozone]

I played in a heavy metal band for years. There were a couple of reasons why we played loud. First, we were heavy metal.... Our attitude was "if it's too loud, you're too old". This probably doesn't apply to the Caribbean band you were listening to however.

One problem you run into when playing in a band, is that while the guitars, bass, and microphones are all amplified, the drums are not (unless you're using electric drums). It's pretty tough to play a set of acoustic drums quietly and have them sound uniform and good. We tended to play to the volume of our drummer.

Silo also makes a good point. Sometimes it just sounds better loud. KISS said it best... "I LOVE IT LOUD, WANNA HEAR IT LOUD, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES!!" :D

[JoltSucker]

In elementary & high school, I play a variety of instruments in concert and marching band. In addition to drums, horns of all sorts are hard to play softly. The rest of the band has to play at the same level, so being in a large band is just naturally LOUD. Since then, I've always equated "live" with "loud".

[NothingMan]

Smart listeners - i.e. DJ's at weddings - realize that there may be some attendees who are not fond of loud music. They then turn it up as the night goes on (Gramma doesn't typically stay late). Other than that I can tell you that as far as popular music goes, the idea is "the louder the better". This does not mean it is always true, but to some, its perfect.
So like, whatever and stuff B.

[PunditLisa]

So that the record producer who just happens to be passing by outside can hear them...

[J String]

The brainlessness of the guy behind the board (if they have one) is also a frequent culprit. Say the guitar's difficult to hear over everything else (because he's got them turned up too high already, or the bass player likes his stage volume REALLY LOUD!!!). What's he do? He brings the guitar up more in the mix so now everything's too damn loud.

...and now the aforementioned bassist thinks he's not turned up enough...

[Red 2]

I'm a drummer in a pop rock band and we always have problems in smaller clubs with the patrons and club managers saying we're too loud. Being a drummer, I'm particularly sensitive to this issue because, like Ozone said, you can only play the drums so low. It frustrates me to no end when club owners tell us (at every other song) to turn down. We do, but we can never turn down enough for them.

If any club/restaurant owners are reading this, if you want your patrons to be able to have a conversation, don't hire a full band. Use just a piano player/singer or at the most, a light jazz band. The minute you put a full band in your club, no one's gonna have a conversation without shouting.

And anyone going to a club/restaurant with a full band playing, know that you're not going to be able to carry a normal conversation. And try not to complain to the club because that's the entertainment THEY selected for you and if you complain to them they're just gonna harp on the band not even thinking that it's their fault for having a full band in the first place!

Anyway, that's my $.02

[Eo Echo]

I'm a drummer as well, and I played in bands that gigged in bars and clubs for years. When asked to turn down, our soundman Gary's usual response was "Sure thing," after which he would make a big show of sliding down a fader on the soundboard, a fader that had nothing plugged into it, thereby appeasing the Powers that be, while at the same time preserving the delicate sound balance achieved through an agonizing soundcheck.

The truth is, as was previously said, the overall sound and volume level of a band is often dictated by the drums, which is inherent in their design.

[SingleDad]

Most people have nothing to say to each other. The loudness of the band provides relieves them of the embarassment of exposing the shallowness of their personalities.

[Fillet]

Thanks, everyone. It makes sense that the volume is controlled by the naturally loudest instrument... Now I'll know to just sit back & forget about having a conversation whenever live music is involved. ;)

SingleDad - ???

[yabob]

So, if this is a common problem, couldn't somebody manufacture drums for use in small clubs that would allow the drummer to do the same things but wouldn't be as loud?

Would any of you drummers buy them, and put together another kit to use in small places?

Actually, I think Red 2 is right. If the owner of the place just wants ambience while his patrons have conversations, a pop rock band with a drummer is not the right thing to hire. That's for places with a dance floor, or real concert venues. A small jazz combo works, as does the piano guy, or an acoustic string band. Personally, I generally hate cocktail lounge piano, but the other two can be nice.

[phouka]

SingleDad, bad day?

[GreenEyes]

Well, in my opinion I have found that most guys think that louder means better. Every man I have ever known, for example, thinks that the way to show off their new car stereo, TV system or CD is to play it so darned loud that your ears are vibrating for a week. I figured that since MOST bands are made up of guys, this could have something to do with why they are so loud.
A few years ago I went to a Kiss concert. It took me about 20 minutes for my poor ears to adjust to the volume. When the concert was over, we walked outside to find that we couldn't hear each other talking. Our hearing was shot for hours afterwards. Was kinda disturbing to say the least.

[GreenEyes]

Well, in my opinion I have found that most guys think that louder means better. Every man I have ever known, for example, thinks that the way to show off their new car stereo, TV system or CD is to play it so darned loud that your ears are vibrating for a week. I figured that since MOST bands are made up of guys, this could have something to do with why they are so loud.
A few years ago I went to a Kiss concert. It took me about 20 minutes for my poor ears to adjust to the volume. When the concert was over, we walked outside to find that we couldn't hear each other talking. Our hearing was shot for hours afterwards. Was kinda disturbing to say the least.

[barton]

Yeah, drums matching up to everyone else is the biggest thing. There's nothing more annoying than the drums dominating the music, drowning out everything else, etc. So even a small band in a small place has to play at their level to be heard.

Tube amp concerns come in as well. My old Marshall combo doesn't start hitting the sweet spots until the volume and gain are both up there - but it's certainly better than an old Fender amp. It's actually designed to groove earlier.

The Fender Twin and its descendents don't get their proper fat, slightly distorted warm sound unless they're close, or at, full volume. They were designed for clean, almost dead-toned guitar work, before some crazy rock 'n rollers discovered they purred when the knobs were at 10.

And, of course, a bad mix overrides both of those problems, and I've heard more bad ones than good ones.

[Neil]

Last time I went to see a local band perform in a coffee shop, they didn't even bring out a drumset. Their drummer was there, but he wasn't playing. I suppose this might have also been because of space concerns, though, too. I like seeing live drummers, but in some situations it's not practical. There were places in their music that I suspect may have originally been just drums, but the bassist just played something to fill it out. I also remember their singer- she was pretty hot. Not that that has anything to do with this.
My friends' ska band performed in a coffee house a couple of weeks ago. I didn't get a chance to see them, but I can only imagine how it must have sounded- a singer/keyboardist, a drummer, two guitarists, a bassist, and three horns. All crammed into a coffee house.

-Neil

[Riverspirit]

Okay, as a musician, there's an answer, and as a guitarist, there's another answer:

1) Musician answer---generally, most bands fight a condition called apathy---people want music as a background thing (which, in some cases it should be). However, often musicians don't get the distinction between when they should be in the foreground and when they shouldn't. If you're going to a bar and there's a band there---especially if they're an original band, they're the focal point. Unfortunately, instead of talent being the focal point, volume often is.

(musician answer number two: guitar amplifiers sound good louder---a proven fact)

2) guitarist answer: It's the damn drummer. I've played with a few great drummers and they all could play just as intensely at normal volumes. Unfortunately, most of them seem to equate emotion with volume. So everyone else plays louder.

[december]

I couldn't get my daughter's wedding band to play softly enough, even though I was paying them. (More precisely, I had ALREADY paid them in advance. Hmmm....) Many guests wanted to talk among themselves. I and several guests specifically asked the band to keep it down. They basically disregarded requests, using ploys described above by other posters.

(BTW We had a party for the bride and groom 2 weeks later on the other coast, with just a pianist. It was more pleasant for conversations, and was actually loud enough to dance to. As an extra bonus, the pianist hung around after the party and played tunes that we could sing along with.)

There appear to be conflicts in some of the comments above. E.g., it was said that the band has to play loud to keep up with the drums, but it was also said that the band gets louder and louder as the evening progresses. Based on my experience, the latter statement is often true, so the former sounds like an invalid excuse. The band could stay at the initial volume level if they wanted to.

Also, the use of amplifying equipment obviously means that the band can choose lower amplification. Maybe I shouldn't complain. My guests had trouble talking, but at least they weren't physically uncomfortable. I have literally been driven out of some affairs by the volume of the band.

So, why do bands choose to piss off their customers and audience? Why do they ignore request after request to play softer. I bet bands NEVER get a request to play LOUDER!

As the King of Siam said, "It's a puzzlement."

[Sake Samurai]

It ain't the drummer's fault, so back off, man!

It is 100% the fault of the soundman. The musicians in the band are the LAST ones to know that they're too loud (or soft). The mix in the monitors might sound just dandy to me behind my kit, but the audience can't hear the kick drum and the guitar is deafening.

In any large venue, drums are miked and amplipfied just like every other instrument - they can be turned up or down at will. All it takes is a kind soul on the board with a good ear.

Or you can do the musicians a favor and approach them between songs and mention that the mix has WAY too much whatever and needs to be adjusted.

No professional musician will ignore such a comment (e.g., if you said something like that to me during one of my shows, I would thank you and simply shove my hi-hat up your ass and use the pedal to make you say things like, "Look at me, everybody, I'm a big critic!" and "I must be a rich record producer, because I thought the band wanted my opinion!").

[Ozone]

There appear to be conflicts in some of the comments above. E.g., it was said that the band has to play loud to keep up with the drums, but it was also said that the band gets louder and louder as the evening progresses. Based on my experience, the latter statement is often true, so the former sounds like an invalid excuse. The band could stay at the initial volume level if they wanted to.

Also, the use of amplifying equipment obviously means that the band can choose lower amplification........

So, why do bands choose to piss off their customers and audience? Why do they ignore request after request to play softer. I bet bands NEVER get a request to play LOUDER!


I can tell already that you have not played in a band. Am I right? There are a LOT of variables you have to consider when you make statements like you have here. First, how big is the place the band is playing in? Yes it's true that "amplification equipment" makes it possible to adjust volume.... sometimes. In a large stadium, ALL of the instruments are miked, including the drums. However, many times, in small bars, at parties, etc., they are not. It's not the drummer's fault that he doesn't have a volume knob on his drum set. There is a certain volume that a drummer HAS to play at. Below that volume, it's nearly impossible to keep everything sounding smooth and even.

You also have to consider what type of music is being played. Yes, I HAVE been asked to play louder. I played metal, and as people get drunker, and rowdier, they want it louder. "Crank it up, man!!!" Heard that more than once.

I really don't think bands "try" to piss off their audience. What good is a band without an audience? It makes no sense. It may seem like they are intentionally trying to piss you off, but more than likely, they simply KNOW what the hell they're doing, and just because someone who knows NOTHING about playing music live asks them to turn it down, it doesn't mean they can. Yeah, they could turn it down, but they know it'd sound like shit, and believe me, I'd rather have people saying "the band was good, but they were just too loud" rather than "the volume of the band was great, but they sounded like shit!"

Next time try a DJ........ :mad:

[DougC]

- - - I'm coming sorta late here, but I remember an interview with Paul McCartney on TV once and one (funny) thing he said was that many times it didn't matter how they sounded, because most people who paid for concerts never heard them play. Back in the Beatles' heyday when the girls would attend and scream nonstop, he said there were many times that he could barely hear the music even though he was up on stage- right by the speakers. Early on, during one concert a curious soundman went 10 rows into the audience and just shook his head, because he couldn't hear anything at all except girls screaming. - MC

[handy]

I may be deaf but doesn't each player need a monitor in front of them so they can hear the music? I often see monitors if the bands are worth listening to.

[Sneevil]

Most people have nothing to say to each other. The loudness of the band provides relieves them of the embarassment of exposing the shallowness of their personalities

The funniest thing I've heard all week. I like your sense of humor.

[cornflakes]

...We tended to play to the volume of our drummer.

That's why acoustic music is the best. A friend used to be in a Brazilian drum and bagpipe corps, which is the best form of acoustic music. They were a blast at acoustic music festivals. :)