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View Full Version : Ok, Somebody Has To Say It ...


Brunetter
06-01-2000, 12:36 AM
What is with all the criticism of Newbies? Anytime someone with a post count under 1000 dares to venture an opinion that may or may not jibe with what an "oldster" believes, they are jumped upon faster than you can say "spit". But think about it ... how are the Newbies (myself included) going to raise their post count if they don't share their opinions? Isn't that what this board is all about? You may not agree with what they (we) have to say, but please, find a better reason to disagree with us than our post count ... in some cases, it turns into a "mine's bigger than yours" argument that really belongs in the schoolyard.

I'm not saying EVERYONE does this, but I see it often enough to be first amused, then perplexed, then mildly annoyed.

By the way, I'm posting this in the Pit 'stead of IMHO because (oddly enough) this is where I see this behaviour the most often.

Let the newbie-beating begin ...

pepperlandgirl
06-01-2000, 12:42 AM
*small voice from corner*
I never had that problem. Or at least if I did, I was happily oblivious. Maybe it's because I wasn't an annoying jerk, or if I was, I was an oblivious annoying jerk!

Loki
06-01-2000, 12:44 AM
Dammit Pepperlandgirl, quit following me :)
I've got an uneasy feeling that I'm a jerk, but I'm secure in the knowledge that other people are worse. And Brunetter - quit yer yap, newb- oo. Uhoh, your post counts higher than mine. Sorry.

SPOOFE
06-01-2000, 01:16 AM
I, too, never had felt the bitter stings of "Newbie Syndrome".

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that some Newbies (not all) want to appear on the scene with a bang, so he comes in, runs his mouth like an egotistical prick, expecting to become revered and respected overnight, instead of taking the time to prove his intelligence. If I were to continue to venture, I'd say that a small number of these "Flash in the pan Wannabes" wind up becoming trolls when they don't immediately become famous throughout the board and, instead of taking the time to build themselves up, desire to tear the "Oldies" (but Goodies) down.

It's part of the whole "fame/infamy" thing.

elucidator
06-01-2000, 01:19 AM
Isn't that just the kind of thing a newbie would say?

But allow me to help, kindly soul that I am.

Let us hypothize (great, big thighs):

[Newbie] wants to post in a way that meets the kindly approval of [Oldster] Then, [Newbie] should post something like this:

"I just finished reading [Oldster]'s post on the Coriolis Effect and the Flat Earth Society, and I am in total agreement. I cannot recall when I have seen such cogent wit and piercing intellect brought to focus. Is [Oldster] really Cecil in disguise? My admiration...."

I'm sure you get the drift. Practice with friends, make up your own variations. Bend, pucker, kiss. It is very similar to academics citing each others learned papers.

Why, you could try it out right now!

WallyM7
06-01-2000, 01:23 AM
Not again.

Another one complains about newbie bashing.

This is not getting tiresome. It is tiresome. It was tiresome last month and it was tiresome last year. And the year before.

We were all newbies once. Some of us have never been bashed. Some have, and learned from it. And some just don't get it.

Aw, what's the use? There will be another post just like this next month.

Say, I just looked at the date and I see that it's almost time for a new poster to instruct us on how the board should be administered. Should be any day now.

Lexicon
06-01-2000, 01:33 AM
Hang in there Wally.

And for all you newbies out there, take it from me, you only get bashed when you portray yourself as an idiot.

Hey Wally, remember how much of a dipshit I was when I was new under the "SmickD" handle?

Hell, I was even kind of a putz under Lexicon for awhile.
Then I came to my senses or people got used to my bullshit personality or both, because now I have manny friends on this board.

So trust me, when you get flamed, it's because you said something that made you look like a thundering moron, and it has nothing to do with your post count.

It may be mentioned as justification for why you are saying something so stupid, so it is actually in your defense to have someone say
"Oh, they're a newbie. That explains it. Let's cut them some slack"

In fact, that's the general attitude re: newbies.

So shut your whiny ass and contribute something meaningful or go away.

I can name at least 20 posters who were never bashed as a newbie... AT LEAST.

So take that sorry shit somewhere else.
No one gives a flying rat dick if you're a newbie.
If you're a shmuck, you're a shmuck. Post count has little to do with it.

techchick68
06-01-2000, 01:52 AM
But I will bite since I am on a Pit Posting Frenzy.

It's nothing against all new people, but there are so many new people that dive without testing the depth of the waters.

I made an ass out of my self the first few days here, got reamed for it but it was because of my own stupidity. I realized I screwed up, pulled myself up by the bootstraps and here I am seven months later with few scars.

It's not about new people, it's about stupid people....oh and BTW that is was this is all about isn't it? Helping rid the world of ignorance?

SO, any new people that are here, if you contribute without being a jerk you will be fine. If you are a jerk or come across as one, expect your spine to crumble under the weight of long timers jumping on your back.

If you are concerned then it is possible that you need to put some steal in that spine and deal with it :)

waterj2
06-01-2000, 02:09 AM
Yeah, there are certain things that someone who has been here a while can do while a newbie will get flamed for. For example, some newbies like to criticize the administration from time to time. This is not bad in and of itself, but they often don't know the dynamic of the SDMB well enough to understand why the administration does things the way they do, and end up looking stupid.

Criticizing things you don't understand is stupid. Just as you don't wander over to GQ and try to answer all the questions posted regardless of your ability to do so with any knowledge, so you shouldn't comment on administrative matters without knowledge of the board. Questions are generally well recieved, however.

Another thing is newbies who insult regs and whine about how they are being attacked for being new. First, this begs the question of why they post here repeatedly. Do these people go to Pizza joints and complain that they would really prefer Chinese food? If you don't like the posters on the message board, don't post here. Don't come in and expect everyone to simply bow to your every wish. This is their community, and if you want to be accepted by them, you have to be able to get along.

I don't see why this is so hard for some people to grasp. These are not principles dissimilar to those we use when dealing with meeting new people in any situation. We've got a community here, and acceptance is not automatic, although ability to post is. Just as in real life you can't demand the friendship of others, so you can't here.

Of course, 99% of the people that join seem to understand this innately. There's just that handful that likes to whine and bitch about how they need to kiss ass to be accepted or how newbies are treated badly. We do admit to treating idiots badly, though. We take our cues from Cecil.

Brunetter
06-01-2000, 03:13 AM
Let me mention before y'all start chewing my ass bigtime, that up until this thread, I hadn't even ONCE been chewed out on the basis of my newbie-ness. I was defending the other lesser newbies whom I see getting pooped on time and again for nothing more than their low post count. Anyway, let me practice ... all you oldsters bring up brilliant and magnificent points ... are you all Cecil in disguise? And for those of you who bitch that it's "another thread about the newbies" well, guess what, I imagine the newbies haven't seen the OLD threads... funny that.

Remember, EVERYONE, all of us were newbies once ...

Sorry to bother y'all

SPOOFE
06-01-2000, 03:31 AM
Well, a lot of what the Oldies (and sometimes us "Middies") call on the Newbies for is their lack of "intelligent posting"... they go to GQ and try to reply to every question, but their answer is completely off base or only based on their opinion. They go to GD and debate horribly, refusing to offer cites or counter-arguments, or just being dicks to those that disagree with them.

Now, I'm not referring to all Newbies (I never did that... I think), just the ones that screw up the experience for the rest of them. They act like assholes and then complain that they get pounced on for being a Newbie, and then OTHER Newbies have to clean up the shit that they start.

So, basically, don't be a jerk, Newbie, Middie, or Oldie.

VaHermit
06-01-2000, 03:34 AM
Well, I love to take chances, so here goes.

The majority of my post so far have been in the pit simply because I think this is the most interesting forum on the board.

I have posted a few strong opinions but I haven't gone out of my way to be an asshole to anyone and so far I think I have been treated with the utmost of respect.

When I see someone with ten/fifteen post come here and start acting like a jerk, I pull up a chair and wait for the newbee bashing to begin. It doesn't surprise me and it really shouldn't surprise the poster.

It reminds me of a kid with a new sportster who pulls up to the club bar and thinks that now he's a biker.

Ya' got to prospect for a while before ya' get your patch, and if you can't handle it then it's time to go back to a moped.

TwistofFate
06-01-2000, 04:58 AM
Hello Brunnetter,
Pleased to have you on the board.

Bear with me for a minute, as I dont want to sound patronizing.

For a start, look under your name.

It dosent say "Newbie" does it? It says member. Therefore the number dosent mean a thing. I 've got 500+ posts since july last year.

Spoofe joined last month and has 300+. (but most of his posts are useless ;) )

so the number means nothing.

If you start out by telling everyone that they're wrong about something without having a reasonable proof, you'll get jumped on.

If you start 10 threads in MPSIMS about how well-endowed you are and that you're god's gift to women, you'll get jumped on.

If you start threads about How Aliens are controlling the goverments of the world and about how all Canadians are dumb,
You'll get jumped on.


there's a constant problem on the board with trolls and sock puppets, so alot of the regulars are wary of "newbies".
We get alot of posters who have been banned under one name coming back under something else, and starting out again.

If you take a beating in an arguement, relax, grudges are rarely kept.

So take it easy, be yourself and you'll be fine.


and as this is the pit, Bite my shiny metal ass. ;)

WallyM7
06-01-2000, 06:28 AM
Brunetter wrote:

I was defending the other lesser newbies whom I see getting pooped on time and again for nothing more than their low post count. Who are these "lesser" newbies? Lesser how? Less intelligent than you? Than me? And please provide links. I want to see who is bashing newbies for nothing more than their low post count.

Not satisfied with that, he continues by insulting the regs for politely explaining a little about how things work here:

Anyway, let me practice ... all you oldsters bring up brilliant and magnificent points ... are you all Cecil in disguise?

Nice going, Spock. Maybe you should teach a class on How to Win Friends and Influence People. Nothing like walking into a roomful of strangers and insulting them. Putz.

And here's my favourite:

And for those of you who bitch that it's "another thread about the newbies" well, guess what, I imagine the newbies haven't seen the OLD threads... funny that.]

Here's a clue: It's called "reading," moron.

Most good posters lurk and read to get the lay of the land before they make their first posts. Then there are the ones that are too lazy or too stupid. I suspect you're both.

Go play with your crayons. And stay inside the lines!

ultress
06-01-2000, 07:59 AM
While I have been called a slanderous, arrogant, bitch, I can truly say that I haven't actually been flamed that I can remember.

Why? Because I usually try to post my topics and threads in the correct forum.

This is the Pit you dumbass. We are supposed to flame people and give our hotheaded opinions here. If ANYONE doesn't desire to be bashed, then stay out of the Pit and you won't be.

While I can appreciate your efforts to help the 'newbies' as you call them, you have only served to defeat your purpose. Your posts show that you consider yourself above people just because of post count, hey, I got a newsflash for you, most people don't even look at the post count except the new people.

You want to get accepted to the board? READ the old threads, stop name calling, and grow a thick skin, or you'll never be taken seriously here.

And, it wouldn't hurt to suck up to Wally, UncleBeer, Aha, and Alphagene.

I love you Wally.

TwistofFate
06-01-2000, 08:17 AM
Ultress, Brunetter,
Do Not give Aha anymore attention then he deserves..... ;)

xenophon41
06-01-2000, 08:17 AM
Here's a clue: It's called "reading," moron.

Most good posters lurk and read to get the lay of the land before they make their first posts. Then there are the ones that are too lazy or too stupid. I suspect you're both.

Go play with your crayons. And stay inside the lines!

Damn Wally; you're goin' all gerbil on his ass...

Actually, Brunetter, it really is better to take the threads on their own merits, watch what happens for a while and don't make general proclamations about the treatment of other posters. Feel free to jump in and defend whomever you want to within the particular thread that gets your goat. Hell, I jumped into a topic the second day I was posting and defended another poster's rights when he was criticized; turned out he was a legitimate troll and I was dead wrong, but nobody jumped on me for presenting a polite (and specific) defense.

So anyway, welcome to the pit, and get bent, you parsimonious little fuck.

TwistofFate
06-01-2000, 08:31 AM
well, Am I sure wrong about this....

I believe some where Brunetter used the sig "The new Troll"

Wrong.


Your an old troll.

And I wonder which old troll.

Milossarian
06-01-2000, 09:00 AM
techchick and waterj2:

You should take your responses here, copy them and save them, and just cut-and-paste in these threads every couple of months.

Wally:

Lick my scrotum, you putting-a-letter-U-in-"favorite" mothourfuckour.

(You know I love ya, babe. Let's do lunch.)

Duck Duck Goose
06-01-2000, 09:19 AM
Xenophon: "parsimonious"???

Where I come from, that's a compliment, babe.

:D

(What, too cheap to pay for the upgrade?)

Biggirl
06-01-2000, 10:20 AM
Wally
The reason why you have to explain the essence of newbieness every month is because every month there are new newbies. Hey, it's the definition of newbie. And you must enjoy it, you do it so often.

Waterj
Posting to a question you know nothing about is not a trait found only in newbies. However, if an established poster says something stupid (especially if he is liked) no one calls him a stupid newbie. Or a troll. No, when an established poster says something stupid, he not personally attacked, just his stupid post is.

Ultress
Your right. Sucking up is much appreciated on this board. You can get away with saying really stupid things if you preface it with: I so enjoy your post DoperX, they always make me laugh/cry/think. Why, just the other day, my friend told me about her friend who microwaved her poodle.
Just look and see how gently DoperX exposes that newbie stupidity.

This board is freakin hard on newbies. The longer a poster is here, the more sanctimonious they get. There are cliques and personal conflicts. Woe unto the newbie who innocently steps into the middle of someone's personal fight. Even in MPSIMS.

Don't you think it says something about this board when, every other week, a newbie complains about the rough treatment they get? You don't have to be new to be a jerk. There are plenty of established posters who are jerks.

tomndebb
06-01-2000, 10:54 AM
JERKS ON THE STRAIGHT DOPE (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=24404)

Kepi
06-01-2000, 11:08 AM
The longer a poster is here, the more sanctimonious they get.

Amen, brother!

I've been around here for about 6 months now, but I have a relatively low number of posts. I post when I think I have something to add, and I lurk the rest of the time. But I've found that lately I've not been enjoying this board like I did before. There seems to be a bunch of unwritten "rules" that apply to some posters but not to others. Or they apply some of the time, but not always. There seems to be a posse of posters that have taken it upon themselves to be the enforcers of these "rules". Just hope you don't get in their way. Honestly, it's gotten tedious trying to figure it all out.

Yeah, I've been around for several of the monthly "mean oldies treat newbies like crap" posts. But usually, where there's smoke, there's fire.

And as for sactimonious posters, this thread includes at least one. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who it is.

Scylla
06-01-2000, 12:21 PM
Brunetter:

What Newbie was bashed for a low post count?

Where?

Can we have a link?

andros
06-01-2000, 12:29 PM
It sure is hard to change, or even evaluate, one's behavior if one is never given examples of that behavior. Please, please, someone post some examples of "newbie bashing" or post-count bigotry? If there's as much as y'all say, it shouldn't be hard to find examples. At least then I'll be able to see what to avoid in my own posts. Thanks!

Kepi, you mentioned:

And as for sactimonious posters, this thread includes at least one. I'll leave it up to you to figure out who it is.

Hmmm. You might want to watch that. Firstly, you posted immediately after Tom, and I really HOPE you aren't calling him sanctimonious. Secondly, the tone of your barely veiled accusation is awfully close to the pot calling the kettle black. Why not just say it outright? "Andros, I have found that you are guilty of being X." As it is, everyone in this thread with more posts than you will assume you were referring to them . . . or was that your intent?

Krispy Original
06-01-2000, 12:42 PM
Couldn't have been refering to me...

vandal
06-01-2000, 12:48 PM
Yes Brunetter, we were all newbies once. There's no need to point out the obvious.

Newbies are going to be treated like shit; there's no getting around that. Whether its at your new school, your new position on the football team, your new job, or, yes, even on your new message board. It's just a fact of life, but more importantly, one of the perks of being a veteran.

hawthorne
06-01-2000, 01:00 PM
I've only been around since April, so I'm still new.

At first, I felt a little ignored.

Nobody had a go at me, and hardly anyone has still.

This "newbie" bashing stuff just doesn't happen. A few usernames with a handful of posts get jumped on because they are widely suspected of being banned posters returning with the sole intent to make trouble.

It is easy to avoid being confused with these people.

1. Read a bit before you post. (okay, I have 300 in 2 months, I'm a hypocrite.)
2. Post answers in GQ, GD, MPSIMS or IMHO rather than start judging who's right in a fight you don't fully understand.
3. Don't start too many threads for a bit. In particular, don't start threads or post exclusively to the Pit. I might just be game enough to start one now, but only just.
4. Don't get sniffy if people seem to ignore you or if they don't take what you say as gospel.

picmr

Kepi
06-01-2000, 01:07 PM
For the record, Tom made his post while I was composing mine. By no means am I implying that he is the sanctimonious poster to which I am referring.

And maybe sanctimonious isn't the correct word for this specific poster. (Heck, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I can't even spell sanctimonious correctly!) Maybe the word I'm looking for is arrogant. Or maybe the word is offensive. Or perhaps it's just plain-ass rude. I'll leave it up to you to determine who it is and what the best adjective would be. But don't expect me to name names. I don't have the desire to defend myself against the "posse" that most certainly will jump to this person's defense.

I'll sit back now and wait to be told which of the unwritten "rules" I have violated with this post.

Scylla
06-01-2000, 01:14 PM
One of the posters in this thread is an obtuse ass. Or, perhaps they are a mealy mouthed coward. Or perhaps they are a swell guy. I'll leave it to you to decide who I am talking about. Or, if indeed I am talking about anybody. And, if so, what it is exactly that I am communicating, if anything, about this person, if indeed that is what I am discussing.

I hope that clears the air.

GreenEyes
06-01-2000, 01:20 PM
Hey, I'm new here.. have yet to be bashed. It wouldn't bother me if I was, simply because it is the nature of the boards. Years ago, I was a very regular poster on another popular board.. I posted, I flamed <and was damned good at it, I might add>, I GOT flamed <but good a few times>, I got wrapped up in the whole thing and took any insult that came my way completely personally. Then I grew up and realized it for what it was/is. Then I come in here and I'm thought of as a "newbie" again. I think it's funny :P I've been posting on boards and doing this when alot of these people were in grade school!
When you do this for awhile you realize that MOST of the time it's not a personal issue. Some people pick to be mean, get attention and get a few LOL's at peoples expense, some pick because they have no life, some people pick because the issue is heated and they get passionate about their beliefs.
I back what Tech said.. If you come on here with guns blazing, start making personal insults and make an ass out of yourself.. well.. your going to get what you give. If you feel strongly about something and don't like being bashed, either shut up or bash back. People will respect you if you stick to your guns and stand up for your beliefs. If you can't take it... well.. either don't give or don't post.

If you come on and you read the posts, let people get to know you, give your opinions and are at least halfway intelligent you shouldn't have a problem :)
You must keep in mind my fellow "newbies", that most of this group of people are like a family. They know each other, for the most part care about each other, they hang out with each other IRL. You can either slowly become part of the family, or be one of the people who drives by on a scooter sticking their tongue out and throwing rocks in the front window. Odds are, someone is going to come out of the house and kick your ass ;)
I've only been here a few weeks and I have met some outstanding people and have made some really good friends.

<steps down, grabs my soapbox and exits stage left...>

andros
06-01-2000, 01:34 PM
Well said, GreenEyes.

Kepi:

But don't expect me to name names. I don't have the desire to defend myself against the "posse" that most certainly will jump to this person's defense.

Perhaps you missed my point. By saying "one of you is a yak-felcher," you have managed to insult not one but many.

Kinda like walking into a crowded bar and yelling "I fucked your sister and she was wordse than your mom." I suspect more than one person might be annoyed with you, right?

If you have something to say, say it. If you can back it up, you're golden. If you can't, yoiu'll be expected to defend yourself. That's pretty simple, right? If I say, "Dubya is a cokehead," I'd better have proof or face those who will disagree with me, possibly vehemently.

And as for

I'll sit back now and wait to be told which of the unwritten "rules" I have violated with this post.

Martyr much?


-andros-

Danielinthewolvesden
06-01-2000, 01:51 PM
OK, Newbies also make a couple more mistakes> One is not understanding that people can't see your face or hear your inflections when you type stuff, thus, something that is (to you), a wonderfully sarcastic remark, is taken literally. I did this, AND got flamed (with justif) BUT when I explained, the "oldster" apologized & explained also.

Next is posting in somewhere like GD, and saying something like "Since fact "X", conclusion "Y" is true", and then not being able to back up fact "X"> Man, will you get toasted for THAT (and with justif). But if it is "your favorite '...'" or "least favorite '...'", there is rarely any need for cites. This is very safe for newbies. There are plenty of safe ways to make your opinions heard, and run your post count up, without getting your nostril hairs singed.

And, once you know your way around, and can post with assurance- the post count "number" is meaningless. There are those with counts in the few hundreds who are better posters and more of a positive influence here, than some whose count is in the 4 digit range.

Valerieblaise
06-01-2000, 02:40 PM
I think that Techie, Lex, and some other people have made good points, but I'd like to add something. Participation in this board doesn't mean that you have to register and immediately start a bunch of new threads. It's a lot easier to get acclimated to the board by reading and posting to existing threads. You'll get a better idea of the individual personalities of the board members, so if someone DOES give you grief about your newbieness, you might already know that they're paranoid about trolls or just a cranky bastard or whatEVER, and can deal with them or ignore them as you see fit. Also, regs will get used to seeing your name, so they'll stop thinking of you as a newbie.

The important thing to remember here is that the regs do NOT act as one. If you get jumped on, don't get so defensive that you think it's a "me vs them" situation. It's usually not. No one poster can speak for the rest of us. Also, provided you're not acting like a jerk, you have as much right to post here as any of us do. Those that are so territorial about the board that they won't give you a chance are NOT the majority by any means.

Another thing to keep in mind if you feel ignored is that very few people are going to post just to say, "Yes, New Guy, I hear THAT!" or "New Person, you are clearly witty and intelligent. Will you be my new best friend?" Sometimes, if you don't get any responses, it's because people agree with you but have nothing to add. While it can be frustrating, it's better than threads that are half-responses, half "me too" posts.

xenophon41
06-01-2000, 02:53 PM
DDG:
Xenophon: "parsimonious"???

Where I come from, that's a compliment, babe.


What makes you think I didn't mean it as a compliment?


(Yeah, right. Guess I shoulda said "picayune"?)

John Corrado
06-01-2000, 03:03 PM
Brunetter- I think part of the reason that newbies get jumped a lot in the Pit is because that's where the most troll activity and paranoia is. All trolls tend to be newbies, ergo people assume (wrongly) that all newbies are trolls.

I think some of the reasons stated already pretty well sum up the situation- there's a distaste for "Me too" posts unless some good witticism or insight is present, but there's always room for "you're wrong"; ergo, any post made is *much* more likely to have a "go to hell" response than a "say, I agree with you" response (the Pit and GD being very good examples of this). Thus comes a feeling of being beseiged, as you only see the people who violently disagree with you, and never those that silently nod their heads in agreement. (This is part of the reason that I don't venture much into GD. I'm insecure enough without people yelling at me that I'm an idiot because I don't completely agree with them upon all issues.)




Oh, and by the way- don't worry about Kepi's comment. *I'm* the sancitmonious poster, it's just that Kepi decided to show off his prognosticational abilities. Damned good at it, too.

mipsman
06-01-2000, 03:44 PM
It was somebody like Mark Twain or Andy Rooney or some such observer of the human condition who said that you never fail to irritate somebody by sitting down in the empty chair next to them, a right to which you are perfectly entitled. A Newbie by its very presence has sat down in the empty chair and some people who were there first get irritated. Threatened? Demanding recognition? Pathetic losers? Ya nevah know.

GreenEyes
06-01-2000, 04:05 PM
Hmmm now.. did they simply sit in the empty chair next to them or did they sit down, pick their nose and flick their booger at the person to their right? :D

SPOOFE
06-01-2000, 04:45 PM
If a Newbie just wants to raise his post count, just do what I did... start your own worthless, waste-of-time, crappy thread that's definitely going to draw a crowd... just like me! I was in Threadspotting! And it's probably one of the biggest threads to ever grace GD or IMHO! Go there now! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=23098)

Man, it's shameless the way I advertise that thing... but, just like Esprix and his Gay Guy threads, I'm DAMN proud of it!

::ahem::Fuckers.

Kepi
06-01-2000, 04:46 PM
First, I want to apologize for the double post. Not really sure how it happened, but I've asked Lynn to delete it.

Second, I want to apologize for my vague reference to a poster whom I think can be arrogant, offensive, plain-ass rude, and, yes sometimes sanctimonious. This is my personal opinion of a particular poster and that causes me to typically dismiss most of what they have to say. However, I still have no desire to get into a flame war with this poster or their legions of defenders, because frankly I don't care enough.

But my point is that most of the regs on this board will put up with behavior from another reg that would cause a newbie to get ripped six ways to Sunday. According to the Terms of Service we all agreed to when we joined this board, there are about eight rules we are asked to follow:

1. Don't be a jerk.
2. Don't post material which is knowingly false, defamatory, abusive, vulgar, profane, etc.
3. Don't post copyrighted material.
4. Abide by the wishes of the board moderators.
5. Limit proselytizing to the GD forum.
6. Use only one screen name.
7. Don't vandalize the site.
8. Don't post ads, chain letters, solicitations, etc.

The unofficial rules enforced by the SDMB Posse:

1. Don't ask a question in GQ unless you've exhausted all other resources (e.g., web searches, Cecil's column, etc.) first (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
2. Don't make a statement - fact or opinion - if you don't back it up with a cite (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
3. Don't whine and moan about how things are done around here (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
4. Don't insult other posters (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).

Any violation of the above rules will result in a Pit flame of epic proportions devoted to the unfortunate violator. New rules can be added at the whim of the Posse. Is it any wonder that newbies sometimes feel jumped on for doing something that regs do all the time?

No, I don't feel like a martyr. Just a few observations I've made during my time here.

And any of you who claim that these unofficial rules don't exist can bite me.

mouthbreather
06-01-2000, 04:58 PM
And any of you who claim that these unofficial rules don't exist can bite me.

No thanks. However, feel free to shut the fuck up whenever you're through.

Hopefully, that’ll be soon.

Whiny-ass, sniveling little bitch.

andros
06-01-2000, 05:15 PM
1. Don't ask a question in GQ unless you've exhausted all other resources (e.g., web searches, Cecil's column, etc.) first (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
2. Don't make a statement - fact or opinion - if you don't back it up with a cite (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
3. Don't whine and moan about how things are done around here (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
4. Don't insult other posters (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).

Let me see if I understand you.

1. Fight Ignorance, don't contribute. And don't encourage laziness.

2. Ditto.

3. Don't be a jerk.

4. Ditto.

Sure, any group of people will cut more slack with people they know already. That's a fact of life. If I were to go up to you and a bunch of your friends and started asking questions that had been asked a dozen times and whining about the way you do things, wouldn't you be a little irritated? Well, duh. Of course you would.

So I don't do that. I hang out with you a while, contributing to the conversation where I can and not being a nuisance. If you're giving me a ride in your car shortly after we've met, I don't have much call to complain about your driving, do I? Once we know each other and we're friends, then maybe I can complain about the fact that you drive too damn slow and don't use signals.

Or perhaps I decide to visit your church. It's pretty cool, but I really don't like the way the preacher runs things. And I don't like what other people wear. Should I immediately begin complaining about the way thigs are in your church? No, no, and once again, no.

On the other hand, if I've been a mamber of your church for years, people know me, I've worked hard to know and get along with people, THEN if I complain, people are much more likely to listen respectfully.

I'm sorry you don't think it's fair. Moreover, I'm sorry you think it's supposed to be fair. "Don't rock the boat" has been with us a lot longer than you or I have been alive.

And finally, please show me some of these inequities in action. If you'd prefer not to shout it out, please feel free to email me (my address is linked to the mail button below and in my profile).

-andros-

tomndebb
06-01-2000, 06:13 PM
The unofficial rules enforced by the SDMB Posse:

1. Don't ask a question in GQ unless you've exhausted all other resources (e.g., web searches, Cecil's column, etc.) first (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
2. Don't make a statement - fact or opinion - if you don't back it up with a cite (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
3. Don't whine and moan about how things are done around here (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).
4. Don't insult other posters (unless you have X number of posts or have been a member since X time).

I won't claim you're wrong, but I will put a bit of a spin on these:

1. We used to have a sign hanging outside the Front Board when we were on AOL that said "We don't answer homework questions." Part of this is "in the spirit of Cecil" who does not take "obvious" questions and part of this is a corollary of the "fighting ignorance" shtick. We do tend to expect people who ask questions to not ask the most basic and most easily answered questions. "How many states in the U.S. in 1999?" should not really show up on our doorstep.

The Merriam-Webster 10th Collegiate dictionary is on-line (and allows wild-cards if you're having trouble spelling a word). The Encyclopædia Britannica is also on-line. Both are free.

Should posters chew up everyone who asks an easily-answered question? I don't think so. I alternate between answering the question while pointing out how easy it was to find the answer and simply pointing to resources to look at. I don't think that response is out of line. It's the old "Give a man a fish...Teach a man to fish..." adage. We will have less ignorance in the world if more people take the time to actually look up answers and get in the habit of doing so.
I do not think it's appropriate to flame someone for asking an easy question. I have no problem pointing out that it was an easy question. As to giving regs an "ask a stupid question free" card, I haven't seen it. An old hand that asks a really easy question is probably more likely to get gigged. (It is probably one of the few places a low post count helps.)

2. You are probably right that some regular posters get away with making uncited assertions. On the other hand, if Stephmon or UndeadDude contributes a bit on physics, or cmkeller or sdimbert or Akutsukami add some information on the beliefs of Judaism, or DSYoung or Bricker posts on the law, we have watched them answer similar questions for months or a year or three (going back to AOL) and when they have been challenged in the past, they have provided the citations to support their statements. The fact that I do not challenge their statements, now, simply means that they have established the quality of their information by posting good information regularly. While it is true that a newbie is more likely to be challenged for references than an old reg, the regs are still open to challenge. I have never seen a long-time poster refuse to post backup citations when requested; we simply request those backups less often from people who have demonstrated their reliability. I certainly get challenged for documentation on a regular basis, and I am probably one of the people who does have a "don't challenge" sign pinned to my back. (Notice that it was pinned to my back by other posters. I figure I have the same responsibility to be able to document my facts as anyone else, even when I post something in a hurry off the top of my head.)

3. This is simply the dynamics of any social group. There is a certain amount of testing (not necessarily hazing) that goes on when any new member joins a group. It is generally not considered good form in any social setting to walk into a room for the first time and complain about the furniture. Scroll back through this thread. Take notice of two recurring features. There are posters who admit to being toasted on their arrival who now say that they can see where their actions warranted the hot reception. There are posters who say they have never been ill-treated as newbies.
I am not claiming that no newbie has been pilloried unfairly. Sometimes the mob does get nasty. I will say that it is not a common occurrence.

4. This follows #3. I don't claim that no one should be allowed to defend themselves from gratuitous assault, but launching a flame war with two whole posts under your belt because you didn't care for the "tone" of another poster's reply is not going to make you any friends. That's just life. As for the old Evil Regs who spend lots of time flaming people, how many of them are shown respect in GQ or Comments on Cecil's Columns? There are a few posters who hang out in the BBQ Pit and hurl insults. Generally, they are considered amusing if they are witty and considered tiresome bores if they are not witty. If you stay out of the Pit, you may never even see some of the nastier members of this group.

We used to have an Evil Reg on AOL who spent a good 80% of his posts scolding other regs for not being sufficiently nice. Mostly, he hurt his own cause. There is only one poster that any of us can control. By constantly berating the other regs for not "forcing" other regs to be nice, no one listened if he did actually find an innocent being harassed. He once "ordered" me to "order" another Evil Reg to be nice; I laughed in his screen. Even with a reputation for knowledge, I don't have actual control over other posters.

Do regs (or Evil Regs) get slack cut that newbies don't? Yeah, I'd say it happens. Does every Evil Reg belittle every newbie? No. Are newbies allowed in? Yes.

The point of the post that I linked to (that I lifted from AOL) was that this fight is eternal. It is part and parcel of the dynamics of any group as it comes together and rubs (or jostles) shoulders or bumps heads. I think that if you want to fight the good fight on this issue, you are better off concentrating on specific incidents rather than launching large demands for change in the organization.

If a newbie asks a "dumb" question and is jumped, post a quiet answer that treats them more fairly and let the hostile post fade into the background. If it looks as though a flame war is about to break out over a misunderstanding, try to point out the missed connection to both parties.

If today you got every single Evil Reg on this board to commit to following the rules of behavior that you would like to see, in two months there would have so many newbies who had achieved reg status that you would have to go through the whole exercise, again. (Which point was sort of the reason I posted that old AOL conversation.)

Good luck.

Scylla
06-01-2000, 09:41 PM
I'm still waiting for an example of a newbie being bashed because of his low post count. Most people I've seen go out of their way to be nice and helpful to a new person who is making an effort to be thoughtful and constructive.

Whining bastards are whining bastards. Period.

Please show an example.. Otherwise I will conclude you are full of shit.

Ayesha
06-01-2000, 10:16 PM
Brunetter,

It isn't about post count. I don't even look at post count, and I can prove it. I started a thread to Osip here in the pit because I thought Osip had lost his mind and had started posting bullshit all over the board.

It wasn't him, it was an imposter. I didn't catch it because I didn't look at the post count.

I saw your first post in MPSIMS, I haven't seen anyone say anything out of line to you. Unill now, and you are the one who came into the pit and started a post that was just begging to recieve flack. So you asked for it.

As others have said either post a link and show us where someone has given somebody a hard time just because they were new (and not because they were new and an asshole) or stop bitching. That goes for eveyone. Put up or shut up.

WallyM7
06-02-2000, 01:10 AM
Kepi was kind enough to take the time to grace us with this gem:

And maybe sanctimonious isn't the correct word for this specific poster. (Heck, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I can't even spell sanctimonious correctly!) Maybe the word I'm looking for is arrogant. Or maybe the word is offensive. Or perhaps it's just plain-ass rude. I'll leave it up to you to determine who it is and what the best adjective would be. But don't expect me to name names. I don't have the desire to defend myself against the "posse" that most certainly will jump to this person's defense.

This is the pit, you fucking moron. If you don't have the desire (read "courage") to defend yourself, stop making oblique and vague accussations and get the fuck out.

And if you don't like the way things are here, get lost, shmuck.

Trust me, no one will know you're gone.

Putz

Soupy
06-02-2000, 02:28 AM

evilbeth
06-02-2000, 03:04 AM
I don't feel like a "reg" (or even one of tomndebb's "Evil Regs", despite the name) but I am definitely not a "newbie."

But I do remember when I was. I posted very sparingly and only about topics I had specific knowledge about.

I have read the Pit since my first day on the board--but I didn't post there for a very long time because I hadn't been here long enough to see how things really work. My first OP in the Pit came about a month ago--about 8 months after I started posting.

I'm not saying this is what everyone should do but people have got to understand that you don't just come crashing into a party and start insulting the hosts, bossing the guests around and trying to be the center of attention.

We enjoy new posters, everyone brings something new with them. We do, however, expect some things from you--things that should be common sense so we shouldn't have to post them.

Things like looking up a question in the archives to see if it has been answered before posting it again in GQ, like taking some time to look at several posts by a member/mod to determine if the crack they just made was meant to be taken as sarcasm/humor/teasing or if they were truly being insulting, and like having some legitimate sources supporting your opinion before jumping into a debate with DavidB about how children should be required to sing religious Christmas carols at school.

So far as "regs" being able to insult well-respected posters but "newbies" getting slammed for it, it works pretty much like a family unit--I can call my own little brother a selfish, irritating, immature, obnoxious asshole but if you say something disparaging about him, I am obligated to kick your ass out of loyalty.

Yes, the SDMB is very much like a family. People here share feelings and stories about their lives. We meet each other in real life. (In fact, I am meeting and having lunch with a Doper I have never met this Saturday.)

"Newbies" can become part of this family--if they want to and if they try to be a part of it. You can't expect us to welcome every new person with open arms--people have to earn that.

Some people take longer than others to be welcomed into this family. I, myself, still feel like I'm still mostly on the outskirts but I still get invited to the cookouts!

We've had many threats to this "family unit" recently so you can't blame us for being a little skittish when it comes to new people but stick around, get used to the climate, interact and pretty soon you'll wonder what the hell else you ever did with your time!

SPOOFE
06-02-2000, 03:04 AM
Half of this thread is civility and the other half is Wally.

ultress
06-02-2000, 07:05 AM
Kepi, you are the type of poster that most dopers ignore. You come in a thread, post generalizations about people, don't care enough to give details because you don't want to get flamed, then sit back and whine because it's not all about you.

Wally is right. And since you made it a point to use the word arrogant, which I also used in my post to describe myself, I would assume that you are talking about me.

If that be the case, bring it on. Believe me I don't need a single poster on this board to defend me. I can hold my own against a slacker like you any time any place. You can even take it to email if you like so the rest of the dopers don't get the opportunity to view the exchange.

I don't post for your reading enjoyment, so please feel free to ignore my posts, as many will ignore yours.

What are you doing on this board? You have absolutely nothing to add, only whining remarks and snide comments.

Milossarian
06-02-2000, 08:03 AM
I'm a fellow new guy and I know exactly what you are talking about ...

My advice? Just do your own thing. If you think you have an interesting question, post it. If you think you have something interesting to add to a debate, reply. (Or even something that just might make one or two people smile sometimes.)

You don't have to "prove yourself" to anyone, despite what 20 or so people on this board may believe in their heads. You don't have to lurk around for six months, and then post on some junior-varsity topic until you're ready for the "Big Leagues."

Why do I come here? Because I read Cecil's stuff for a long time, and I like it a lot. I was overjoyed to find a web site and message board devoted to it.

The Star Trek action figure-collectors out there who want to pretend this is some kind of Yale Skull-and-Crossbones Club need to take a deep breath and a step back.

Everything I've posted has had at least several responses that were very helpful in answering my silly little questions. Some may not have provided answers, but they were funny.

So ... just do your thing, ignore the odd folk out there that think they own this place and you will have fun with it.

That newbie punk was, of course, me, back about a half-year ago.

My point? It's kind of a natural reaction for a newcomer to feel like established posters don't like them, or treat them with disdain. They seem like some exclusionary clique, and newcomers aren't welcome.

But take a closer look, and usually you'll find old-timers are generally friendlier with one another out of nothing more than familiarity.

It kind of cracked me up to dig up this post and re-read it. Methinks I was a leeetle paranoid. Some of what I said in it holds true, I guess.

I do think that the SDMB has its own personality, it's own "vibe," and new posters who (immediately or eventually) fit into it have a better time longer than those who don't.

But for the latter folks, another message board where they may fit in perfectly could be just a mouse click away.

I join those looking for evidence that newbies are bashed by old-timers. Only time that I can recall ever bringing up a low post count is when somebody with 20 or 30 posts is bitching about how the board or its administration operates, or tells other people how to do things. I don't even think the old AOL'ers should do the latter -- and they don't.

Esprix
06-02-2000, 09:13 AM
Spoofe wrote:

Half of this thread is civility and the other half is Wally.

This surprises you? It shouldn't for two reasons - it's the Pit, and it's Wally. He brooks no imbeciles, nor should he, particularly here.

Now, for the fact that he's yet to give me a .sig line despite my repeated requests, perhaps I ought to call him a putz. ;)

Esprix