For the sake of the children? Anecdotes or data wanted

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Without being maudlin, I have recently left my husband, for several reasons, mainly his alcoholism. I dont take this lightly as we have a six month old son.

I keep telling myself this is for the best for my son. But how would I really know? My parents have been married almost 40 years.

So, Im not asking for advice, only I can decide what to do next. but for children who grew up with fighting parents, or divorced parents, what do you think about the "staying together for the children"? ( I will not be in dire financial straights as a single parent. I have a supportive family. My ex will not likely be a big figure in my son's life, unless he changes dramatically. He may even move across the country within a few months)

Any comments, data, anecdotes would be helpful.

[Bad News Baboon]

NEVER EVER stay together for the sake of the children.

There are a lot of things in life I don't know about, but that is one thing I do know.

I wish my mom would have made that decision years and years ago. My parents were not alcoholics (just very unhappy with each other) but I can only imagine how worse it would have been if they were.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Don't stay together for the children. Try to make sure the child has some contact with Dad (assuming he isn't a danger), but don't get back together for anyone other than yourself.

My parents have been divorced since I was nine. Both are now remarried. I'm so much happier.

[DMark]

Children, even at a young age, know when there are problems at home with the parents. And even if the parents are giving Oscar winning performances of being civil in front of the children, the lack of genuine love is not going to go unnoticed.

Staying together "for the children" is about as stupid as staying together because of financial reasons, or staying together because of religious reasons or...

Sometimes people fall out of love. Sometimes people change and make living with them impossible.

If you really want to prepare children for adult life, show them how to handle adversity and rise to the challenge. Your son will hopefully remember a mother who had the guts to do what was best for herself and her son, and took the necessary steps to get there.

We have a lot of single mothers with children working in our office, and I don't ever recall a single one regretting their decision. Some have moved on and remarried or dating new guys, others are doing just fine the way things are.

More power to you, and congratulations on getting out of a situation (hopefully) before it got out of hand!

[Kallessa]

My parents divorced when I was six and my Mom did it for the kids. My father's alcoholism and his affairs were causing embarassment--no make that shame--for my oldest sisters, then in high school. Getting a divorce wasn't a common thing at the time, and although I have some problems with how they did it, I will always be thankful that my paternal grandparents supported my Mom's decision, and then provided financial support (which Dad never would have maintained on his own).

That said, the best thing my Mom did for me in regards to my Dad was to never say a bad thing about him to me. I was too young to know how badly he treated her, and hey, my Dad was my Dad. When he came to visit, I was excited to see him, and I loved to watch baseball games with him or an episode of Bonanza, sharing a big bowl of popcorn. Those are the memories I have of him.

I learned about him as I was old enough to understand--I learned or figured out he was an alcoholic when I was about 11; I accepted that sending me cash was his way of telling me he loved me when I was 15; I learned that he had married the woman who had been his mistress when Mom divorced him when I was 16--5 years after the fact (he didn't want me to know, so Mom didn't tell me). And finally, when I was 33 and he had had a stroke and was in a nursing home, and so could no longer drink, I had my first conversation with him when he wasn't drunk. And he told me he was proud of me and that he loved me. He died 5 years ago, but I get to remember him as somebody who loved me, and my sisters and especially my mother, even if he was too weak to choose us over alcohol. And I have my Mom to thank for that.

I never knew what it was like to have a father, so I didn't miss it as a kid. It affected me--I had some anger issues and relationships are not always easy for me (I looked for father figures in my boyfriends for a long time)--but I shudder to think what I would have been like if Dad had stayed in our lives.

Love your son. Support whatever (safe) relationship he can have with his father. As an alcoholic, his father will undoubtably disappoint him--forget to show up to take him to the zoo or be too hung-over to be good company--don't make excuses for him, but don't use it against him, either. Answer your son's questions at a level he can understand, and let him come to his own conclusions.

Good luck to you.

[Abbie Carmichael]

You're in the same situation my Mom was in 26 years ago, right down to the age I was when she left him.

I believe in staying together for the kids SOMETIMES. It depends on the circumstances and I'm not going to get into it.

However, this is not one of those situations. I am VERY thankful my mother left my drunk of a father; I would have had a horrible life if she had stayed with him!! As bad as it was growing up without a dad, I think it would have been far worse to have had a bad dad in my life to completely screw up my view of what a man should be like.

What you've done is no different from what you'd do if your house caught on fire: get your son out of danger. YES this is the best thing for your son, never doubt that.

Two words of unsolicited advice that served me and my mom well:

1. Don't try to poison your son against his dad. Be honest with him as he matures and can handle the truth, but try to point out his good qualities too. He helped create a great boy, no? There's gotta be SOMETHING good about him.

2. Terminate his parental rights as soon as possible. (He's a drunk and so until he gets clean he probably won't fight you on it anyway because all he cares about is the booze.) The last thing you'd want is for some judge to hand your kid over to him if, God forbid, something were to happen to you before your son becomes an adult.

3. Hi, Opal.

[Ephemera]

In my opinion, staying together for the kids is usually just an excuse for a parent not wanting the relationship to end. Kids are a lot more sensitive to the things going on around them than most people give them credit for and will notice that their mom and dad are fighting, even if they aren't screaming constantly and that will damage them more than having to grow up in a single parent household will.

My childhood turned out just fine with two sets of parents, as did many other's. Dirvorce can be devestating to children but it isn't the monster it is made out to be either.

[belladonna]

shirt, brown, honesty, the path you've chosen is a hard one. It can be joyful, fufilling, exciting, and fun--but it's still damn hard. But stick with it because you're doing the right thing. I finally permenantly separated from my ex, after about two years of back and forth, when I became pregnant with my second son. My reasons were similar to yours likely--substance abuse, lies, money... My personal belief is 'better no father than a terrible father' and that's working out well for us so far.

My email is in my profile if you need a friendly voice of quasi-experience. Good luck!

[Chimpy]

Well my parents divorced when i was 7 and I'm glad I lived with one loving parent and saw another than got caught between to arguing parents, constantly trying to one-up one another.

[Kitchen Wench]

My parents divorced after 18 years of marriage when I was 5 or 6, my brother was 17 or 18. The only thing I can remember about their marriage was my father being drunk, violent and beligerent & my mother waking me up in the middle of the night, dragging me to grandma's house.

I can honestly say that if they had stayed together, my brother and me would be infinitely more screwed up than we already are. Brother got into drugs heavily and had a short "vacation" at the State Pen 8 years ago for manufacturing of methamphetamines. Me? Well, I found comfort in food before the divorce and have been grossly overweight/ obese since.

Dad and I had a great relationship from my childhood until he died almost 2 years ago. Mom is a controlling meddler, so she ain't no angel either. The two of them together was a volitile mix, and we were ALL better off after the split, but the chaos their marriage started stayed with us kids. My bro has done a complete turnaround with his life and is now the only stable parent his 3 great kids have. I, on the otherhand still struggle with my own addiction and after years of therapy, have realized that the groundwork for my screwed-up mental state was laid in my formative years.

Yes. Get out now while your baby is just a baby. Get all the support and love from your family and friends. You and your son will be fine. And by all means, keep Dad out of the picture unless dramatic changes are made.

[AmericanMaid]

Staying together for the children is not a good motto. If my mother had left my mentally ill father, all of us would have been happier and would not have spent years in therapy. I knew things weren't right in my household from a pretty young age. Plus seeing the way my father treated my mother, really damaged me and my brother.

[Scarlett67]

Another voice in the crowd . . . I've said it here before and I'll say it again: The six months after my mom kicked my dad out were so nice and peaceful, and the three of us had a lovely time. But then she took him back and it was the fighting and tension all over again.

[Dogzilla]

I was 7 when my parents divorced and was relieved and thrilled to not have to live with the screaming, fighting and throwing of things anymore. My mother never trashed my dad, although that didn't seem to stop my dad and step mom. All I really learned from them about relationships is how to treat your SO like crap and how to make really, really selfish choices. And that is why I choose to remain single -- I still haven't really learned how to be in a healthy intimate relationship. Had they stayed together for our sake, I'd probably be even more screwed up. I would have probably divorced my own alcoholic by now.

[P_T_]

I stayed in an unhappy marriage for almost 5 years 'for the sake of the children'. When I finally decided I just couldn't do it anymore I left. My kids were 9 and 6 at the time. About six months later my 9 year old told me that he was kind of glad we broke up as we both seemed alot happier. Now almost 6 years later the boys are both doing pretty good. I can't imagine what it would be like if I had stayed.

[tanookie]

My mother says she stayed married to my father "for us" but I think it was her being too scared/ashamed to leave.

I spent my whole childhood wishing my parents would get divorced.

You know inside what is best for you and your son. Having support from your family is a boon. I wish you both well!

[Dung Beetle]

Shirt, you are absolutely doing the right thing. I have been on both sides of this one: My mom divorced my alcoholic dad when I was six, and I am in the process of divorcing the alcoholic father of my seven year old son. I only wish I had done it sooner! The younger your child is, the easier it's going to be for all concerned. Lots of luck to you.

[Eliahna]

Children learn a lot about relationships from their parents. Do you really want this relationship to be what your child learns is normal?

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Thanks everyone. I know, mentally that Im doing the right thing, but emotionally Im pretty soggy right now. It didn't help that Sunday was fathers day. I've been staying with my folks until things get sorted, although he hasnt been in contact for several days and things arent getting sorted at the moment.

Its hard. I grew up in a two parent home, and watched as relatives got divorced. I always felt bad for my cousins, although it was obvious that some were better off with their parents living separately.

I left two weeks ago yesterday. It was going to be for a day or two, but he got so over the top that he basically has forced my hand. It wasn't until a few days ago I started accepting in my mind that this time there was no going back, and that I've started to put the wheels in motion. I have an apointment with a counsellor tomorrow.

I will be okay, just not today. I keep telling myself that people get through this. Hearing your stories definitely helps. Thanks so much

[P_T_]

You will get through this, and you're taking a good first step with the counselor. It won't be easy, that's for sure, but stick to what you know is right. I think the hardest thing for me was wanting to go back cause it would be so much easier than having to mess with all the hassle. Just try to remember the reason why you left in the first place, and realize that most people don't change.

[TroubleAgain]

DON'T stay together for the children. I was one of the children. It was a huge relief when they split up. But also, DON'T put down your ex-spouse to the kids, because that makes them just as uncomfortable and unhappy.

[FisherQueen]

I'm a teacher, and I work with kids from every imaginable kind of family. It seems to me like the important factor isn't whether the kid lives with a married mother and father, but whether the kid lives with someone who strongly loves, supports, and stays involved in the child's life.

I've seen deeply screwed-up kids from traditional nuclear families, and I've seen great and well-adjusted kids raised by an older cousin or grandparent. As far as I can tell, the deciding factor is that the adult or adults in the child's life are very involved and the child knows the he or she is loved.

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Well thanks, I never expected so much advice and shared stories, especially since I am new here.

I really know that if I stay my own sanity would be erroded bit by bit. I know we have no savings and are in debt... because of his drinking and general irresponsibility with money. I know that we've fought and its escalating.

I guess I've bought in to the "a boy needs his dad" wisdom. On the other hand I don't think my hub can be a good dad now.

So, although I'm a mess I know it has to be over. Its really good to hear that people in my shoes or my son's have no regrets.

Thanks again. How do personal profiles work, I cant seem to get into any?

[Hello Again]

Click the user name in a post, then you'll see a drop-down menu. "View public profile" is one of the choices.

[Brainiac4]

Another child of divorced parents chiming in: do NOT stay together for the kids. Get a divorce for them. What they need is stable, safe, fighting-free home life. Give them that, and get what you need for yourself as well, by staying out of the destructive relationship.

My parents divorced when I was 14 and my brother was 13. It was not easy, but it was far better than the several years of fights before that. And it soon became just fine. I will also echo the advice of others here -- do not ask the children to carry messages for you. If you have something to say to your ex, say it yourself. Do not involve the children. My parents tried that on me. Once. I told both of them that they would not do it again -- not something I expected to be doing at the age of 14.

You have my sympathy -- this is not an easy thing that you are doing. But it is the right thing. Be safe, and be strong.

[belladonna]

Click the user name in a post, then you'll see a drop-down menu. "View public profile" is one of the choices.
Is this available to guests? I think maybe not. :(

[TVeblen]

I left two weeks ago yesterday. It was going to be for a day or two, but he got so over the top that he basically has forced my hand. It wasn't until a few days ago I started accepting in my mind that this time there was no going back, and that I've started to put the wheels in motion. I have an apointment with a counsellor tomorrow.

I will be okay, just not today. I keep telling myself that people get through this. Hearing your stories definitely helps. Thanks so much

Hang in there, shirt. It takes a little while for the emotional confidence to kick in. I'm so glad you're going for counselling. It can be an incredible relief to just be able to pour everything out to sympathetic, helpful outsider.
FWIW my parents divorced when I was quite young, way back when divorce was a real rarity. (Sometime around the Pleistocene. Sigh.) The only minus was my parents not dropping the animosity and just getting on with their lives already. IMO the most important thing for your son is keeping him firmly apart from just as much animosity as possible. Believe me, he'll grow up before you know it, and see what's what on his own. As long as he KNOWS he's loved and secure, he'll be fine.
I also divorced an alchoholic husband. Only I stayed in the mess for a lunatic amount of time, thereby making things much worse for both of us. It took a counselor--one in his umpteenth rehab--to jolt me into reality, namely that I didn't cause the alchoholism and there wasn't a damned thing I could do to cure it. Nothing. Until the alcoholic faces the problem the most important thing in life will be that next drink. Family, job, wracking scenes, lost friends, accidents--nothing will outweigh the lure of the bottle.
That's no way to live, for your son or you. You've removed your son from a toxic situation neither he nor you can control, much less influence. It'll take a little while to settle down inside but it will happen, and very probably much sooner than you can believe right now. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, resist the temptation to dwell on what-ifs and keep your focus on yourself and your son. And the best of all good luck to ya, shirt. You'll make it through this rough patch just fine.

Veb

[Mercury]

My mom divorced when I was too young remember, like your son. I am very glad she did! A lot of my friends have parents who divorced when they were old enough to remember, and all these friends seem to have turned out okay. I have one friend whose parents stayed together for the kids. (He believes his parents will split up when his youngest brother turns 18.) He swears that he will never date, marry, have children or love another person.

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Thanks for all the input. Of course in the years I've been with my husband, he's managed to make me so unsure of what I know and what I think, sometimes my judgement has been off. Hearing other's stories certainly helps. For the first week after I left he just heaped verbal abuse on me (via telephone and one lovely morning when he showed up and yelled on the front lawn) and I generally felt like I was losing my mind, that maybe I was over-reacting and should just go back and work things out.

A few more days and Im thinking more clearly and I know I can't go back.

Nobody's story or opinion would change my course of action but it really makes me more comfortable with my decision. My biggest concern is the impact this will have on my son, a happy, active, and gregarious 6 month old. I dont know if its just the age, but he is babbling much more than he was before I left.

[TVeblen]

Of course in the years I've been with my husband, he's managed to make me so unsure of what I know and what I think, sometimes my judgement has been off. Hearing other's stories certainly helps. For the first week after I left he just heaped verbal abuse on me (via telephone and one lovely morning when he showed up and yelled on the front lawn) and I generally felt like I was losing my mind, that maybe I was over-reacting and should just go back and work things out.
My biggest concern is the impact this will have on my son, a happy, active, and gregarious 6 month old. [b]I dont know if its just the age, but he is babbling much more than he was before I left.[b] (bolding added)

You're starting to come out the other side, shirt. People who haven't been through it have trouble understanding how undermined you can get. "Why didn't she just leave? etc." You can get so swamped, exhausted, overloaded and just plain numbed to the situation all healthy perspective is lost. It's a case of one person's sickness making those close to them sick as well. It takes a little while for the toxins to wash off.
It sounds to me like your little boy, young as he is, was absorbing a lot more of the atmosphere than you realized. If he's babbling away more freely, happily now it's because he feels safe doing it. That isn't coincidence. It's entirely beyond your power to force the situation into an "ideal" Leave It To Beaver mold, but you've moved your son into a place where he's free to thrive.
Sometimes just the absence of an overwhelming negative is a pretty damned huge positive.

Veb

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

You're doing the right thing.

Now check out Al-Anon (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/) to find a bunch of people who understand just what you're going through because they went through it, and can tell you what worked for them to help them get through it.

Alcoholism is a disease that can make the people who are real close to the alcoholic think that they themselves are crazy.

[Abbie Carmichael]

Boy ain't that the truth QTM. One thing I learned in the limited contact I had with my father is that drunks can make you feel like you're the one that has done something wrong, without saying a word.

Go read the AA Big Book (http://www.healingresource.org/online.html), Brownie. Bill W. hits the nail right on the head about what it's like to be an alcoholic or be associated with one.

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Again thank you. Qadgop, I had picked up an Alanon pamphlet at the library last evening ... so do great minds think alike...or is it that fools seldom differ? :)

I went to the counsellor, and was underwhelmed, she seemed to have her own agenda and offered very little support, but Iwill try to contact another one. I also have contacted a lawyer whom I will see next week.

I can't go back. I'm tired of the sheer amount of time and energy I have put in to listening to his blather. He needs help for his drinking and he is really unbalanced mentally. And truth be told, while I do love him, I dont really like him much at all. so its all over but the lawyers and paperwork. Oh probably some shouting and possibly some more public nudity and other over the top behaviour. But I am getting off this roller coaster.

[Scarlett67]

Good. For. You.

You are absolutely on the right path. We are behind you all the way.

GO shirt GO! :D

[lachesis]

AMEN!!

bravo, shirt. life does get better. it just takes away. life didn't get crazy overnight. it will take almost as long to get sane again. but it's a much better journey on the way back.

[shirt, brown, honesty]

Oh, the fact of me leaving has not been in doubt for the last two weeks. Just a residual guilt about my son, etc has made me take my "poll".

The end of the month is fast approaching though, and Im not sure what is going on. After 10 days of harassing phone calls, the estranged husband has maintained silence for the last week. (But he is home, he's picking up phone messages)so I am not sure about the lease, paying rent, where he is going etc. I really want to go back in and get papers, a few other changes of clothes etc, but I need to know he's out when I do that.

He works midnights so its a bit creepy to do that then. Dont worry I dont plan to go alone.

[Abbie Carmichael]

Why not call the cops and see if they could spare one for a bit to escort you to your place to get your stuff?

[Adoptamom_II]

I'm a little late with my 2 cents, but I offer them up anyway.

I'm 42yrs old and I WISH my parents had divorced a long time ago. Instead, there were knock down drag out fights often, aggravated by drinking :(
Now, they are too old and dependant on one another financially and couldn't split if they wanted to because of health insurance. My Dad drank until a couple of years ago, and my mother has turned into a very bitter and angry woman. Not a pretty sight :(

Take care of yourself and your son ...

Peace