More Lies and Bullshit

[Chefguy]

The Bush military history controversy has reared its ugly little head again (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-bush-records.html).

For those who don't want to sign into the NY Times, here is a partial quote:

HOUSTON, July 8 - Military records that could help establish President Bush's whereabouts during his disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard more than 30 years ago have been inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon.

It said the payroll records of "numerous service members," including former First Lt. Bush, had been ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. No back-up paper copies could be found, it added in notices dated June 25.

The destroyed records cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Mr. Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question.

What an amazing coincidence! :rolleyes:

How can anyone still believe that there are not blatant coverups, lies and corruption in this administration going back to years before the election? Yeah, I know, "prove the conspiracy". It would seem there is an abundant shitload of circumstantial evidence pointing to all manner of mischief with these people, and only a fool would believe there is not some substance.

[NurseCarmen]

I don't think you need to register for Rueters (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=SP4IWXDQJRZU0CRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=5632144)

[The Great Sun Jester]

heh heh...yeah. He's a dirty little genius ain't he? And he's got us by our collective balls with this electronic voting scam...to say more would be illegal.

[Larry Mudd]

Um, although there has indisputably been some hanky-panky with Bush's records, the accidental destruction of these records actually sounds quite plausible to me, given the time and circumstances. Thirty-year-old microfilm isn't exactly the most stable medium, which is why there was an effort by archives to salvage what could be salvaged. You would expect losses.

(Here's a registration-free link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3880141.stm), by the way.)

[World Eater]

I don't even know what to think about this shit anymore. I think people that support this man should be shunned from society.

[jk1245]

OK, the detryoed microfilm excuse is at least plausible, as Larry Mudd states. Still, why is this just coming up now?? People have been after Bush's records for some time and never any mention of missing records with an official explanation of when and how they were destroyed?

This stinks to high heaven.

[Metacom]

I don't even know what to think about this shit anymore. I think people that support this man should be shunned from society.
How does that work? Society shuns half of itself? Society splits into two groups that mutually shun eachother and each clame to be the one true society? Is this some kind of Zen meditation game?

[World Eater]

How does that work? Society shuns half of itself? Society splits into two groups that mutually shun eachother and each clame to be the one true society? Is this some kind of Zen meditation game?

Dunno yet, I'm still working on the details. :p

[UrbanChic]

OK, the detryoed microfilm excuse is at least plausible, as Larry Mudd states. Still, why is this just coming up now??It's a vast left-wing conspiracy. Duh!

[asterion]

How does that work? Society shuns half of itself? Society splits into two groups that mutually shun eachother and each clame to be the one true society? Is this some kind of Zen meditation game?

I've got no problems with it, as long as the Provider is still John Elway.

[SPOOFE]

Still, why is this just coming up now??
Because we're dealing with an entity that has to deal with ten million times more records and paperwork in a week than the average Joe will have to deal with in his entire lifetime. Remember how much trouble you had, say, finding the receipt for your DVD player so's you could get that nifty rebate?

I say "Whatever". People that focus on this have their priorities screwed up.... AND SHOULD BE SHUNNED FROM SOCIETY!!! :D

[Mojo]

Do you people truly think that everyone at the Pentagon is so enamored with Bush that they're now engaging in a large scale coverup over 30 year-old National Guard records on microfilm that, up until a year ago, nobody gave a rats ass about? Do you think that everyone who works for the government is part of "the administration" and is in on it?

Why is it coming up now? Because the government is a large, slow-moving, incompetent beauracracy.

I'm surprised that no one's claimed that Tom Ridge issued the Orange Alert (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265426&page=2) to cover this up.

On preview: I now see that someone has. :rolleyes:

[lissener]

How does that work? Society shuns half of itself? Society splits into two groups that mutually shun eachother and each clame to be the one true society? Is this some kind of Zen meditation game?
No, I gotta better plan: one half of society could EAT the other half! That way the rightwing would finally serve some purpose, and us lefties would finally have something to appreciate them for. Plus, after eating them, it would cool to have Republican poop in my toilet.

[Evil Captor]

Do you people truly think that everyone at the Pentagon is so enamored with Bush that they're now engaging in a large scale coverup over 30 year-old National Guard records on microfilm that, up until a year ago, nobody gave a rats ass about? Do you think that everyone who works for the government is part of "the administration" and is in on it?

Where do you get this "everyone at the Pentagon" and "everyone who works for the government" stuff? All it would take is a couple of the classic Republican little elves (http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/03/04/willey/index.html?sid=659902) like the ones who secretly worked to impeach Clinton. Or do you feel like denying that nasty little bit of history?

[black rabbit]

Um, although there has indisputably been some hanky-panky with Bush's records, the accidental destruction of these records actually sounds quite plausible to me, given the time and circumstances. Thirty-year-old microfilm isn't exactly the most stable medium, which is why there was an effort by archives to salvage what could be salvaged. You would expect losses.

(Here's a registration-free link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3880141.stm), by the way.)

<tinfoil hat>

Weeeellll... I dunno. I've worked with microfilm older than thirty years, that's been manhandled by an indifferent public for decades, even, and it's held up pretty well.

I can maybe see a problem with mold if the films were kept in a damp basement or something, but as physical mediums go, microfilm is reasonably indestructable.

</tinfoil hat>

I don't usually get that paranoid, but the Pentagon's excuse certainly gave me pause. You'd have to be pretty stupid and/or negligent to irrevocably destroy microfilm, especially in the middle of a project to salvage it.

Not that I want anybody to think that I'm underestimating the stupidity or negligence of DFAS or anything...

[Kid_A]

I've got no problems with it, as long as the Provider is still John Elway.

Hey, uh, what are you doin'?? Ha-I'm ready to give myself to Mr. Elway.

Carousel, carousel, carousel...

[World Eater]

I say "Whatever". People that focus on this have their priorities screwed up.... AND SHOULD BE SHUNNED FROM SOCIETY!!! :D

:D

[Exgineer]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal. All you really need is his discharge.

[blowero]

<shun>
How does that work? Society shuns half of itself? Society splits into two groups that mutually shun eachother and each clame to be the one true society? Is this some kind of Zen meditation game?
Too late - I already shunned you.

[blowero]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal. All you really need is his discharge.
Do we have to send him into the men's room with a cup for that?:p

[Exgineer]

I supose you could just have him mail in his underwear.

[unclviny]

A spoiled rich, politically connected kid got special treatment as a Reservist?
No way, that stuff only happens in the movies.

People I think that Shrub is a fucknutted moron, but this is a complete non issue, we are talking about a 3 month span of time from over THIRTY YEARS AGO.

Shut up, grow up, catch up, we (as a country) have MUCH bigger fish to fry.

Unclviny

[Chefguy]

People I think that Shrub is a fucknutted moron, but this is a complete non issue, we are talking about a 3 month span of time from over THIRTY YEARS AGO.

Shut up, grow up, catch up, we (as a country) have MUCH bigger fish to fry.

Unclviny

Sorry, it's NOT a non-issue. As any Republican with a hard-on for Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy will tell you, it's a matter of integrity, honesty and values. He's lying about his record, his party is lying about his record, and the logical conclusion is that he's lying about a host of other things. It's part of a body of evidence, as lawyers are fond of pointing out, that helps define the level of sleaze this guy is capable of, and which helps define how voters will react in November.

[Exgineer]

I'm sorry, but I think it is a non-issue. You have no evidence that he's lying about his record, just unsupported allegations. He received an honorable discharge, and for reasonable people that should be the end of the discussion.

Really, there's a lot of legitimate stuff to question about this guy. This is silly.

[Wolfian]

I've got no problems with it, as long as the Provider is still John Elway.

*Starts slow clap*

[unclviny]

I think that this is a cheap, silly, diversionary tactic designed to keep the sheeple (us) away from the real issues and I don't care who did it or why. I say again as a Country we have MUCH bigger fish to fry!.

Unclviny

[Albert Rose]

I don't even know what to think about this shit anymore. I think people that support this man should be shunned from society.Or married, as I did to (with) my wife two months ago.

[Shodan]

Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue.

I suspect their time machine malfunctioned due to grit in the mechanism, picked up during its trip back to the grassy knoll. The EMP pulse it generated then wiped out the files.

All perfectly straightforward and above-board.

Regards,
Shodan

[Uncommon Sense]

Sorry, it's NOT a non-issue. As any Republican with a hard-on for Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy will tell you, it's a matter of integrity, honesty and values. He's lying about his record, his party is lying about his record, and the logical conclusion is that he's lying about a host of other things. It's part of a body of evidence, as lawyers are fond of pointing out, that helps define the level of sleaze this guy is capable of, and which helps define how voters will react in November.

So, just to clarify....
Wait, what made Clinton such a great guy?

I havent seen any Grand Juries assemble yet....

[Mojo]

Where do you get this "everyone at the Pentagon" and "everyone who works for the government" stuff? All it would take is a couple of the classic Republican little elves (http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/03/04/willey/index.html?sid=659902) like the ones who secretly worked to impeach Clinton. Or do you feel like denying that nasty little bit of history?
I'm denying squat and acknowledging bubkus. I don't know who "Republican elves" are, I know even less about what makes them "classic", and I don't see how this has any bearing on what we're discussing. You're comparing a handful of private attorneys with career Pentagon people in several different areas and consider this a valid analogy?

[tdn]

No, I gotta better plan: one half of society could EAT the other half!

Hey, whatever I can do to better serve the Republican party...

[Larry Mudd]

Hey, whatever I can do to better serve the Republican party...It's all about presentation. Garnish the facts, and you can't go wrong.

[blowero]

Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue.

I suspect their time machine malfunctioned due to grit in the mechanism, picked up during its trip back to the grassy knoll. The EMP pulse it generated then wiped out the files.

All perfectly straightforward and above-board.

Regards,
Shodan
Uh, I'm pretty sure the OP is suggesting that the Pentagon covered it up this year, and lied about it having happened in 1997.

Duh.

[Chefguy]

So, just to clarify....
Wait, what made Clinton such a great guy?

I havent seen any Grand Juries assemble yet....

Ummmm....I don't understand the question. I didn't say he was a great guy. My point was that he had integrity issues that NObody would let die. And I agree that the country has huge issues, not the least of which is the dishonest smirking frat boy in the White House.

[Otto]

Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue. Oh come now. Both GW and Brother Jeb were on the track to be the Republican nominee. The only reason it went to GW was that Jeb managed to lose his first run for Florida governor.

Add these missing records to such other records-gone-missing issues as the "I saw the records in the trash" thing and GW's new Texas Driver's license (which as I understand it has the effect of masking any criminal record he might have had prior to the issuance of the new license, but I'm not 100% on that) and it doesn't take too much of a leap to get to the notion that GW and his supporters took steps to purge the paper trail.

Am I saying that it happened? No. I'm saying that it looks really bad and that there's a potential history of this sort of thing which, if true, warrants investigation. And not to play the partisan card since I'm not a Democrat, there is no denying that if it were Clinton in a similar situation many of the same people going "no big deal" about GW's military records would (and did) scream for an independent counsel (Whitewater billing records anyone? Hillary's stock investment?).

[Evil Captor]

I'm denying squat and acknowledging bubkus. I don't know who "Republican elves" are, I know even less about what makes them "classic", and I don't see how this has any bearing on what we're discussing. You're comparing a handful of private attorneys with career Pentagon people in several different areas and consider this a valid analogy?

Nah, low-level bureaucrats NEVER try to ingratiate themselves with powerful political factions by doing them favors even without a request for their help (Linda Tripp Linda Tripp Linda Tripp).

[thermalribbon]

Oh come on now. This has to be the biggest non-story yet. Like there aren't lost records from every institution.

This is just the NYT trying to smear Bush by implying that the lost records somehow cover up some inconsistency or lie that Bush has told regarding his Air National Guard Service.

And the people who buy into it follow like sheep.

[Desmostylus]

Um, although there has indisputably been some hanky-panky with Bush's records, the accidental destruction of these records actually sounds quite plausible to me, given the time and circumstances. Thirty-year-old microfilm isn't exactly the most stable medium, which is why there was an effort by archives to salvage what could be salvaged. You would expect losses.Sounds more like something happened to the microfilm over the last few weeks, not the last thirty years.Testy, Testy, Testy
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, June 25, 2004; 11:43 AM (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5127-2004Jun25.html)

Associated Press Assistant General Counsel Dave Tomlin told me yesterday that AP reporters began trying to get the documents back in February, but hit roadblock after roadblock.

Tomlin said the AP has been informed that the microfilm in question does indeed exist. Tomlin said that because paper records can vanish and be tampered with, the microfilm "would erase any questions."

[Typo Negative]

A simple rule. "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."


A massive government agency with millions of records on paper and microfilm was trying to clean up and backup, and in the process they destroyed some. I've seen that happen in the private sector on a number of occasions.

Perfectly plausible. A governmnet worker screwed a rather insignifigant (at the time) pooch. I'm surprised that more weren't ruined.


What an amazing coincidence! :rolleyes: Coincidences DO happen.

Does anyone really care about this? If the pentagon provided proof on microfilm that GW had a perfect record, would we buy it?

Hell, I wouldn't.

[Guinastasia]

Perhaps if Bush and his pals hadn't made such allegations about John Kerry's military career, this wouldn't BE that big of an issue? They trashed him, made false accusations about his service in Vietnam and afterwards, and then get all defensive about their own pasts?

No way.

[Shade]

The Bush military history controversy has reared its ugly little head again.You missed a great opportunity to use the word "rereared."

[11811]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal. All you really need is his discharge.

Preferably in a glass vial with a rubber stopper. You wouldn't want to get that all over you. :eek:

[EvilGhandi]

What I'd like to see is one clear thinking Democrat in the country.

Don't you realize that shrieking about this makes you look a brain cell short of sane?

Lets sum up.

The records were destroyed on 1996.

The second term of a well known D aww fuck it.

Face it you don't have enough evidence to convict a black man in Georgia.

[Equipoise]

You know, Bush could rape and mutilate an "armadilla" on camera, at a press conference, and Bushites would think people were making a big deal about it if they complained.

He can send American troops to die on a lie, and kill innocent Iraqis with his "humane" bombs, no big deal. What's a few "inadvertantly destroyed" records?

[Desmostylus]

What I'd like to see is one clear thinking Democrat in the country.

Don't you realize that shrieking about this makes you look a brain cell short of sane?

Lets sum up.

The records were destroyed on 1996.

The second term of a well known D aww fuck it.

Face it you don't have enough evidence to convict a black man in Georgia.This is the goddamn silliest post I've ever read.

a) No one is shrieking, you fucking moron.

b) People suspect that the records were not in fact destroyed in 1996.

c) There's not enough evidence to convict, as yet, and nor is there enough to exonerate, because the Bush team seems to be utterly, utterly incapable of tracking down a few simple items that appear to have existed only a few short weeks ago.

d) God you're fucking stupid.

[Typo Negative]

Well, DtC linked to an article and quoted this:
Tomlin said the AP has been informed that the microfilm in question does indeed exist. Tomlin said that because paper records can vanish and be tampered with, the microfilm "would erase any questions."
This, to me bring more questions. As in "informed by whom?" Were they informed that the the film wasn't, in fact, destroyed? If not, why not? I mean, if you don't want it out there in the public eye, and you're willing to lie and say it was destroyed, then hell, why not destroy it?

[manhattan]

OK, the detryoed microfilm excuse is at least plausible, as Larry Mudd states. Still, why is this just coming up now?? People have been after Bush's records for some time and never any mention of missing records with an official explanation of when and how they were destroyed?

This stinks to high heaven.Heh. It's not "just coming up now." It's coming up now again because of the response to AP's FOIA request. Now why would AP make such a request when Bush released a bunch of records, including payroll records, in February? Well, because the text along with the released documents
said at the time that the destroyed documents were "lost when they were being transferred to microfiche" (http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/021004_bushmil.pdf) (sorry for the non-original source -- I couldn't find the thing on the White House website. Fox' description of the loss is on page 9 of that .pdf). This week's story confirms what the White House said in February.

[PunditLisa]

If President George W. Bush is so clever that in 3 1/2 years he's put into place the most comprehensive and effective damage control task force ever created, that would actually give me a reason to vote for him. Now there's leadership.

[Desmostylus]

"lost when they were being transferred to microfiche"... confirms what the White House said in February.Transferred to, transferred from, my dog ate my homework, my homework ate my dog, all the fucking same, is it? :rolleyes:

[The Flying Dutchman]

d) God you're fucking stupid.

Take a fucking pill asshole!

[Desmostylus]

Anything you say, brainless tool. Which pill, the blue one or the red one?

[Chefguy]

Oh come on now. This has to be the biggest non-story yet. Like there aren't lost records from every institution.

Right. In this case it just happens to be records pertaining to a particular period of a future president's questionable military history. A pretty selective coincidence.

This is just the NYT trying to smear Bush by implying that the lost records somehow cover up some inconsistency or lie that Bush has told regarding his Air National Guard Service.

And the people who buy into it follow like sheep.

So reporting information that is put out on Reuters equates to the NYT smearing the little prick? They didn't imply anything; they reported information supplied by the fucking government. Try to keep up.

[Evil Captor]

Coincidences DO happen.

Coincidences DO happen, but an awful lot of "coincidences" have happened wrt to Dubya's past. It's WAAAAAY past the point at which any reasonable person would have to conclude it's "enemy action."

I mean, we all try to keep an open mind, but many of us on the Dope haven't yet had our brains fall out.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Which pill, the blue one or the red one?

The blue one I think. Viagra is blue isn't it? As I said before, you desparately need to get laid.

[Miller]

No, I gotta better plan: one half of society could EAT the other half! That way the rightwing would finally serve some purpose, and us lefties would finally have something to appreciate them for. Plus, after eating them, it would cool to have Republican poop in my toilet.

Careful, there, lissener. The right still has Limbaugh. I don't know if that's a fight we can win.