back in the good old days... really?

[mmmiiikkkeee]

I was listening to one of those religous radio programs today and the preacher dude was talking about how things have gotten so bad these days. The topic being discussed is actually irrelevent; I was wondering about the line it's self... we (society) are failing so bad at X, Y, or Z in recent times/nowadays...

Now has this line ever not been used as an attempt to bolster one's point? I'm having a very hard time believing this is a new pattern of argument. I'll bet that farmers and peasants in the 1400's used this line on their kids, and that whoever wanted to lay a guilt trip on another group of people have said the same thing about how times were so much better about 20-60 years previously..... "back when I was a kid in 220 AD everyone helped each other and lived right, but now in 245 AD society has lost it's way and really slid downhill."

Is this line of reason or example of one's point valid? Things are constantly changing so I'm wondering if comparing those changes to the ways of a few decades ago can ever be proof of how the new way is bad?

[FairyChatMom]

I seem to recall seeing a quote about how disrespectful kids are to their elders and the speaker bemoaning the decline of civilization as we know it. Can't remember who was quoted, but the speech was made sometime BC.

So, were there ever really any good old days?

[enipla]

My dad brought up a good point about this.

He calls it 'More and more, about less and less'. Refering to the speed that information zooms around 'now-adays'.

People are tending to make a big deal about nothing.

On the other hand, I was born in '60 and grew up in the country. It did seem simpler then. I used to target shoot .22s out of my bedroom window. I was taught how to drive when I was 10, and had a motorcycle when I was 11.

:sigh:
To me they where good old days. I think every generation will have them.

[MLS]

We see the past through rose-colored glasses. These "good old days" speeches are due to faulty recollection or ignorance about the past. We remember the golden autumn days and forget about how the haze of autumn was really air pollution.

Bad things tend to fade in our memory with the passage of time. Think really hard and you can remember a toothache from when you were a kid. But you don't think about it that often, and the pain is not that vivid. It's a survival mechanism.

We are led to believe that once upon a time all children were good, all brides were virgins, nobody beat his wife, and there were not so many crazy people. In reality, none of these things were ever true. To the extent that we don't know about them it's because (a) we forgot or (b) they were covered up and lied about.

[Heart On My Sleeve]

Amen. I tried to make this argument once, and I got looked at sideways. Although I do see the point about "more and more for less and less". I think we're overextending ourselves, and I don't see that as a good thing, but a quick look back shows that we're not any worse off than we've ever been...and certainly better in some respects.

[Thaumaturge]

We're better off in every respect now than we've ever been, but don't expect people to ever admit that. People just like to complain even if life gives you nothing substantial to complain about.

[MLS]

For a good book that goes into much detail on the topic, especially regarding families and social issues in the American 20th century, try The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-9012700-2418519)

[monstro]

Although I don't think the old days was nearly as good as people make it out to be, at the same time I think kids are different than they were "back in the day". And I'm not talking about my day, but the days of my parents and grandparents.

I have actually seen kids yelling at their parents out in public. I have heard parents carrying on conversations with their children as if they are intellectual and emotional equals. Many kids don't seem to have a problem being straight-up rude to their elders. I don't doubt kids were bad-behaving a long time ago, but I think adults were better respected "back in the day". (It's probably cuz adults were meaner "back in the day" :D)

I think parents had it easier a long time ago than parents nowadays, as far as controlling what information their children have access to. Before cable television, the worse a kid could come across was their father's Playboy magazine. Now, you have to worry about kids making dates on the internet with pedophiles and downloading bomb-making instructions.

I think materialism has also changed. Fads have become more expensive. Back in my mother's childhood, it was the norm to hold on to an automobile forever, until it broke down. Now, it's almost normal for people to swap their cars every two years. There are presently more cars on the road than households in the US. You have middle-school kids carrying around $100 worth of electronic equipment to school (cell phones, CD players, game boys, etc.), and then coming home to beg for more. We're constantly bombarded with advertising. We're overloaded with information designed to affect our behavior. There was a time when this was not the case.

The past wasn't all together "good". Poverty was much worse. Sexism and racism and xenophobia were tons worse. People were probably more repressed and fake because of stricter social norms. People gave little lip service to mental illness and sexual abuse. But there were some good things about the olden days. These are the things I think people wax nostalgic about when they say the "good ole days".

[Sternvogel]

I seem to recall seeing a quote about how disrespectful kids are to their elders and the speaker bemoaning the decline of civilization as we know it. Can't remember who was quoted, but the speech was made sometime BC.

From this page (http://www.nsb.com/whatsnew.asp?i_newsid=171):

[Quote]"Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."
Roman scholar and statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

I believe you're thinking of a longer quote, though -- one that was regularly featured in either the "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" column. Three or four clauses about the youth of today not listening to their parents, running wild in public, etc.

Billy Joel has said that he wrote We Didn't Start the Fire after he was told by a high-school-age student that (quote not exact) "you were lucky to grow up in the fifties, when nothing much happened." Joel's incredulous response was along the lines of "Haven't you ever heard of the Korean War? The civil rights struggle? The Hungarian Revolution?"

Several years before that, Mad magazine's Dave Berg did a "Lighter Side of..." strip in which a father responded to his son's comment that "you got to live in the good old days" by pointing out that the 1920's had gangsters, the '30's were marked by the Great Depression, the '40's featured World War II, and the McCarthy era took up part of the '50's. The concluding panel showed the father saying: "If anything, son, THESE are the 'good old days'!"

[astorian]

Obviously, anyone who tells you that everything was better generations ago is engaging in selective memory. But anyone who pretends that nostalgia has no basis in fact is lying to you, too.

I have no desire to live in the 1930's. In most respects, my life today is a lot better than it could have been then. And it's a safe bet that most of the social pathologies we see today were around then, too. But Grandma isn't full of beans when she tells you life was better, back then- she can point to a host of specific things that WERE better back then.

Wise guys and leftists may suspect that Grandma just misses the days when darkies knew their place... but maybe, just maybe, Grandma remembers the Thirties as a time when murders were almost unheard of, and nobody needed to lock their doors. Maybe she misses a time when neighbors all knew each other.

Again, I have no desire to return to the Thirties, and have no idea how to make that happen if I DID want it! But don't kid yourself- some things WERE much better in the past.

[tomndebb]

but maybe, just maybe, Grandma remembers the Thirties as a time when murders were almost unheard of, and nobody needed to lock their doors. Maybe she misses a time when neighbors all knew each other. Your final sentence has a ring of reality.

Murders unheard of? When? Are you talikng about the pleasant 1930s, when Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde dominated the news? The 1950s, with Sam Shepherd and assorted family disputes making the headlines? (Suburban Detroit was "terrorized" by a random sniper after a woman was shot through her kitchen window while doing dishes. It turned out her angry teen son shot her.)

I still don't lock my doors and I live within easy commute of downtown Cleveland. On the other hand, we always locked our doors as I was growing up, based on various experiences my Mom had had--including being lured away by a guy with evil designs on a motorcycle around 1920. (She was, fortunately, rescued before anything happened.)

I will grant the neighbors issue. With so many of us commuting from one suburb to another and forming social circles around work rather than community, we often do not get to know our neighbors.

[Little Nemo]

I think it all depends on who you are too. I once read an article about nostalgia which pointed out that blacks and women never get nostalgic for the "good old days".

[DMark]

If you are young, the good old days are right now.

Change is good. But change is bad if it isn't as good as what used to be.

Old dude I am...when I was growing up, my grandmother used the "N" word for blacks. Fags were sickos, wifebeating was just a ruckus down the street, an un-wed mother was sent off to a home, girls were sluts if they had sex but guys were studs, there were no seatbelts in cars and people would die in minor car wrecks, drinking and driving was normal, kids got the "paddle" in high school by the principal, cancer of any kind was an immediate death sentence, no one ever talked about sex so Uncle Bob had free reign...

But on the flip side, we watched Wizard Of Oz on televison because there was no VCR/DVD and everybody watched it, Christmas brought neat gifts because your parents saved all year to buy that stuff, gas was 35 cents a gallon, ice cream was made fresh by the local shop, there was only one pizza place in town and it was great, it was cool to have a library card, people wrote letters, there was no terrorism or AIDS or driveby shootings, gangs were a bunch of kids who rode bikes and snuck a six pack of beer from Gary's house and drank it in the woods.

The good old days were fun, but I wouldn't want to go back. There was too much that wasn't good in "the good old days".

But the new old days have lots of good things going for it...I prefer to look ahead, but retain my right to bitch. My bitch of the month is that I still think it is shocking that university age students seem to be either politically unaware, or apathetic to what is going on right now. In the "good old days" we were mobilized.

[Cicero]

From this page (http://www.nsb.com/whatsnew.asp?i_newsid=171):

[Quote]"Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."
Roman scholar and statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

!"

I was misquoted :p

[Beauty Personified]

I think youth itself is what a lot of people, throughout history, actually miss. Especially in modern times, when most youth lived off their parents, hung out with their friends, and just experienced a lot of things for the first time, while being totally oblivious to the negative aspects of a lot of those things.

By the time they become true adults, with jobs and their own families, people come to realize that a lot of things - even the things that were wonderful when they were young - are not exactly what they seem.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, once they're able to identify and understand the bad things in the world, tend to forget that good things still exist, and they only remember the good things from their youth.

Anyhoo...

[ColonelDax]

What MLS and Thaumaturge said. Here (www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394709411/qid=1090153783/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-0924171-1224709) is another book that takes a non-rose-tinted view of the "good old days."

[ralph124c]

Men had neat 3-piece suits, and those hats! Wide brim fedoras=and white too (in the summer). I liked the 1930's cars too-running boards! You could jumpon the running boards and yell "follow that car!"
I liked 30's jazz as well, and we had the "Three Stooges".
Of course, if you were unemployed in the 30's,life could be pretty rough..my grandfather remembered lines of unemployed men waiting for a bowl of soup.
Well, ya can't have everything!

[norinew]

In one of his essays, Andy Rooney says "It's amazing how long the world's been going to hell in a handbasket without ever having gotten there".

IMHO, the good stuff we have now far outweighs the good stuff we had "in the good old days". I say this from a very personal perspective, too. As a SAHM, not only wouldn't I have had anything like the SDMB, but even if I had, I wouldn't have had time to enjoy it; housewives a hundred years ago spent from sunup to sundown tending to the needs of the house and the family. Then again, if I'd lived a hundred years ago, I probably never would have been a wife or mother, because my first blood infection, at age 17, would have killed me.

[SamIAm336]

I would not have lived past the age of about 10 in any time more that 50 years ago, and even if I had lived, none of my children would have survived infancy. I like now, I am alive.

[MLS]

I would not have lived past the age of about 10 in any time more that 50 years ago, and even if I had lived, none of my children would have survived infancy. I like now, I am alive.
This reminds me of a few decades ago, when I was teaching a class of 9th graders. Their book included an inspirational story about a man who became a success despite a childhood bout with infantile paralysis. The term was footnoted as polio. The students were equally stumped by that word. Finally one recalled his baby brother getting an immunization for that disease. We had a wonderful discussion about medical advances in the previous 100 years. One of the class had recently returned from an appendectomy. When they realized that without 20th century medicine she would have almost certainly died a miserable death from peritonitis, the point was really made.

[astorian]

I think it all depends on who you are too. I once read an article about nostalgia which pointed out that blacks and women never get nostalgic for the "good old days".

Actually, while that SEEMS logical, it's not.

There's more black nostalgia than you'd think, especially in the South. No, no, no, I am NOT suggesting that any black Americans want a return to Jim Crow! But many elderly black folk will tell you, sincerely and truthfully, that in the days before integration, their communities were much better places to live thanthey are today. And in some respects, it's clear that they're right.

Segregation was evil, no two ways about it, but it had a few unintended benefits for blacks in the South. Since all blacks (whether poor or middle-class, whether educated or illiterate) had to live in the same part of town, and were barred from going to white restaurants, shops and theaters, many black communities in the South responded by building their own thriving shops, restaurants and theaters. And since a black doctor or merchant had to live in the same neighborhoods as black maids, black janitors and black sanitation men, there were a lot more positive black male role models for the children in segregated communities.

While the end of segregation was both desirable and necessary, there was a negative aspect to it: most well-off blacks left their old communities as quickly as they could, and moved to better areas that were now open to them. And partly for that reason, the neighborhoods they left behind were much worse off.

So, while you'll NEVER see an old black man or woman in East Austin telling you "Boy, it'd be great if they'd repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964," you WILL find many who'll tell you, wistfully, what a wonderful community they once had, and how the area has never been as pleasant a place to live as it was before integration.

**

As for Tom's attempt at refuting my earlier post...come on, Tom, I KNOW you can do better! Violent crime rates WERE much lower in the U.S. in the Thirties than they were in the Seventies and Eighties (they're substantially lower now). And my Dad wasn't lying when he talked about riding the subways and streetcars with his friends of New York in the 1940's without any adult supervision. Kids could and DID do such things in big cities, and nobody thought twice about it! Today, of course, parents who let 11 year olds ride the NYC subways to Yankee Stadium unaccompanied would be regarded as insane.

Again, there's no doubt that our lives are, on the whole, a LOT better than they were. I don't have any desire to hop into a time machine and move back to the Depression era. I merely note that nostalgia isn't just a delusion. Some things WERE much better in the past. If it's foolish to pretend that the past was a Paradise, it's equally foolish to imagine that every aspect of life in our time is automatically better than it was a few decades (or even a few centuries) ago.

[Julius Henry]

Here are four quotes from this site (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/advice/teenagers/). Only two came since Christ was born. The Socrates quote was a popular poster in the 70s and may have been what FairyChatMom was trying to remember.

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence [respect] for their parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint; They talk as if they alone know everything and what passes for wisdom in us foolishness in them. As for the girls, they are foolish and immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress" (Peter the Hermit, eleventh century AD).

"Our young men have grown slothful. There is not a single honourable occupation for which they will toil night and day. They sing and dance and grow effeminate and curl their hair and learn womanish tricks of speech; They are as languid as women and deck themselves out with unbecoming ornaments. Without strength, without energy, they add nothing during life to the gifts with which they were born - then they complain of their lot" (Seneca, first century AD).

"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in places of exercise. Children are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties [food] at the table, cross their legs and tyrannise their teachers" (Socrates, fourth century BC)

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, eighth century BC).

[BoringDad]

And my Dad wasn't lying when he talked about riding the subways and streetcars with his friends of New York in the 1940's without any adult supervision. Kids could and DID do such things in big cities, and nobody thought twice about it! Today, of course, parents who let 11 year olds ride the NYC subways to Yankee Stadium unaccompanied would be regarded as insane.

Could you not chalk this up to increased awareness of crime, rather than actual increased crime? 60 years ago did you have a week long nationwide scare every time one child was missing? (Statement made to show general media coverage rather than any specific incident.) Would 11 year olds be actually less safe riding the subway today, or are parents today just more scared/cowed by the media?

[BoringDad]

I have actually seen kids yelling at their parents out in public. I have heard parents carrying on conversations with their children as if they are intellectual and emotional equals. Many kids don't seem to have a problem being straight-up rude to their elders. I don't doubt kids were bad-behaving a long time ago, but I think adults were better respected "back in the day". (It's probably cuz adults were meaner "back in the day" :D)

I think that this is an improvement, not a problem. You have to earn respect by your behavior and knowledge. I do not respect people just because they have been on this planet a long time. Lotta people been on the panet a long time that are worthy of scorn rather than respect.

Kids yelling at their parents in public? Parents treating kids as young adults rather than servants? So? This affects my quality of life how?

[Lissa]

I think that this is an improvement, not a problem. You have to earn respect by your behavior and knowledge. I do not respect people just because they have been on this planet a long time. Lotta people been on the panet a long time that are worthy of scorn rather than respect.

I think you're melding "respect" with "admiration" more than it needs to be. Respect really boils down to politeness. In this sense of the word, every human being should be shown respect: not because they deserve it, but because you are a civilized person.

I'm of the school that no one deserves rudeness. Showing lack of courtesy debases you, not the person you're snubbing or insulting.

[Manatee]

I've become more and more convinced that this rosy/nostalgic view of the past is a human constant. Every culture, every era, seems to express it in one form or another. Hell, you can go back to the epic of Gilgamesh, sometimes cited as the first story ever written down (c. 2500 BCE) and find that sentiment expressed.

[tomndebb]

And my Dad wasn't lying when he talked about riding the subways and streetcars with his friends of New York in the 1940's without any adult supervision. Kids could and DID do such things in big cities, and nobody thought twice about it! Today, of course, parents who let 11 year olds ride the NYC subways to Yankee Stadium unaccompanied would be regarded as insane.I suspect that this has as much to do with perception as reality. The stories of child kidnappings in the 1940s and 1950s were big deals, but I have watched the actual kidnappings through the 1980s and 1990s in Cleveland, and they are no more numerous than the ones reported in the 1950s. As I noted, my mom was lured away around 1920--which may have led to my being raised in a more fearful environment than I have raised my kids. However, I know parents who will forbid their children from certain unaccompanied activities that I know are reasonably safe with other kids, including mine, engaged in them without incident.

It is true that there was an unexpected low in the homicide rate in the 1950s and early1960s, (a rate that we are approaching, now), but the rates in the 1920s and 1930s were nearly as high as in the 1980s and 1990s and the 1940s were comparable to the late 1960s and 1970s. In addition, when comparing the homicide rates of the more recent decades, it should be noted that for most areas of society, they were rather low, anyway, with the rates in the very poor neighborhoods of major cities skewing the numbers, badly. (I would not be surprised to learn that similar demographics skew the numbers of the earlier decades. For the majority of rural, suburban, and urban communites wealthier than the poorest, safety has tended to be based as much on perception as on reality.)

[Cisco]

I think it all depends on who you are too. I once read an article about nostalgia which pointed out that blacks and women never get nostalgic for the "good old days".


I don't believe that for a second.

My grandma is one of the most sentimental people I know, and I've known lots of the old black people that astorian was talking about.

Hell, Wu-Tang wrote a whole song about how black people so often sit around talking about "the good old days."

[Neidhart]

Does anyone know offhand when the crime rate in NYC reached its lowest point? If I had to guess, I'd say during WWII.

ISTR the panic over "juvenile delinquency" started in New York in the early '50s (viz. Blackboard Jungle, set in 1952) and spread to the other big cities a few years later.

[Liberal]

I think it goes in cycles for each civilization. Like the Roman quote cited above suggests, good times come and go. For America, I think some things used to be better, and some worse. I think families and neighbors used to be closer, and that's a good thing. But prejudice used to be worse. I think it also can be cyclical within a person's own lifetime. Money used to mean much less. We really didn't know how poor we were as children. And that was a good thing. But now, even though we have much more stuff, I'm not sure we're any happier. So, up down around and round...

[Anaamika]

I'd like to put in my two cents about the "good old days". These being the ones that my friends' parents talk about; i.e. 40's through 70's.

Just remember: it wasn't until the 70's that non-whites really had a chance in "regular" society. And I most definitely am non-white.

I know most of you like diversity, like being with people different than you. It wouldn't have been like that. You and I would barelyt have met, unless I was doing your laundry or babysitting your kids.

That's my take on it...I could also start in on the fact of how much freedom I have as a woman these days, but I think you guys get the idea. :)

[Mr. Moto]

Some things were better, no doubt about it.

Kids were freer, less regimented in the old days. My grandfather used to come home from school at the age of nine or ten, grab his rifle, and go rabbit hunting completely unsupervised. He loved doing this, and his parents liked having the extra meat on the table. Today, a ten year old wandering around with a loaded gun would bring out the cops, and the kid and his parents would wind up in jail.

Even my generation, growing up, would have hours and hours of completely unsupervised time away from the parents and in unstructured activities. This seems to be a thing of the past, and I don't know that it's good for kids. It can't prepare them well to be independent and assertive.

[Rysler]

I'm rather young, having done my elementary school during the mid-1980s, and I take issue with the children these days aren't as safe talk.

I had a carefree childhood. I spent most of my free time roaming the woods surrounding my neighborhood, out of calling distance. My friends had BB guns, we went fishing, we jumped out of trees. All this in a middle class suburban neighborhood in the South. I'm sure this lifestyle is still possible today--It's probably a matter of location and economic status.

[ralph124c]

There isone trend that I see today that seems to be unique toour era..that is the wholesale abandonment of intellectual goals, by some large segements of young people.I'm talking about willful ignorance, and the rejection of learning..the kind of thing that Bill Cosby has commented on. How do these kids think they will survive? Ebonics is one thing, but if you refuse to learn some basic math, you are in for a lifetime of being cheated on credit terms, installment payments, etc. If you reject learning how to speak proper english, you can forget about a job in sales or customer support.
This seems to be a new trend..one that doesn't seem to have happened in the past generations. :confused:

[Labdad]

But on the flip side ... gas was 35 cents a gallon...

From this page (http://www.bls.gov/home.htm), using the inflation calculator, 35 cents in 1964 has the same puchasing power as $2.14 in 2004. I filled up my car over the weekend at $1.89 per gallon.

[JohnBckWLD]

From a friend, with the subject line:

We're Children of the 70's, We Should Be Dead:
(Don't know who wrote it, or if it's been posted on the SDMB previously):
Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint.
We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets, ... and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.)
As children, we would ride in cars with no seatbelts or air bags.
Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special treat.
We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle.
Horrors! We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing.
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this.
We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the street lights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No Cell Phones!
We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms. We had friends! We went outside and found them.
We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would really hurt.
We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. They were accidents. No one was to blame but us. Remember accidents?
We had fights and punched each other and got black and blue and learned to get over it.
We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms, and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms live inside us forever.
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them.
Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment.
Some students weren't as smart as others, so they failed a grade and were held back to repeat the same grade. Horrors! Tests were not adjusted for any reason.
Our actions were our own. Consequences were expected. The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law.
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.

[BoringDad]

From a friend, with the subject line:

We're Children of the 70's, We Should Be Dead:
(Don't know who wrote it, or if it's been posted on the SDMB previously):
...
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.

Of course the people who lived in the 70's and are reading this list are still alive. After all, the people who did these things in the 70's and died are not likely to read this list. That does not mean that none of these things are bad, just the people still alive weren't killed by them. Hey! Random gun violence is OK! I haven't been killed by it!

[Kizarvexius]

My dad was in the Army, and I grew up on military bases all over the U.S. and in Germany. In my experience, military communities, even in peacetime, pull together and provide a good, steady environment for raising children. At the age of ten (1981) I lived in Fort Bragg, NC, in a housing area set aside for officers who had families. It was a five minute bike ride from a similar area for NCO families, and it all pretty much blended into a single community without much consideration for rank.

As soon as we moved in, our family name went up on a sign outside the house, and we started getting a flood of neighbors coming over with casseroles, offers of assistance, and invitations to come by and meet the kids. Every other house likewise had the family name posted in plain view, so it was a simple matter to learn who lived where, and which families had kids your own age. Families with “problem children” were identified quickly and the entire community parental network kept their collective eyes on them. Race, creed, and color were never issues that kept kids apart. I had best friends who were Black, Latino, Korean, and God-knows-what-else, and nobody ever made a big deal of it. A family's non-European or non-Christian heritage was more of an interesting quirk than anything to get worked up about.

During summers and on Saturdays I was free to wander through the nearby forest, ride my bike miles away from home, visit other kids’ houses at will – and all without asking my parents. Since Saturday cartoons were over at noon, and most people believed that Atari would ruin your TV, couch potato kids were unheard of. We had basketball and tennis courts nearby, swimming pools, an ice rink, horse stables, a bowling alley, summer camps, and an activity center to keep us busy. If my parents were ever concerned about my wanderings around the neighborhood, they kept it pretty well hidden.

A fairly typical scene from my boyhood was something that happened now and then around 5:00 on warm weekday evenings. Since most everybody’s dad got home from work around the same time, it would be normal to see five or six or them standing in the street (we lived on a cul-de-sac) in their camo fatigues and combat boots, shooting the breeze and kicking a soccer ball around while trying not to spill their beer. It was not at all unusual to have paratroopers landing in the field behind our house, or to have the 82nd Airborne Choir performing at our school and singing an only slightly edited version of Blood on the Risers to the giggling mirth of the third graders. Your average army brat was quite accustomed to going by military time (13:00 hours for 1:00 pm) and could convert to and from “civilian time” without thinking twice. Most of my friends couldn’t name more than a few pro football teams, but they could tell you about most of the major engagements of World War II.

During times of crisis, everyone pulled together even more. I recall when a massive training jump out in the California desert went horribly wrong and a number of soldiers were dragged to their deaths by high surface winds. My cub scout troop’s scoutmaster was among the dead. I remember clearly the way everyone went out of their way to provide every kind of support to the families who had lost a loved one. During the Iran hostage crisis, there was hardly a house in the entire area that did not have a red, white and blue flag emblazoned with the number 52 hanging on the front door to represent the Americans held in captivity.

Displays of patriotism were pure, unashamed, and unstained by partisan animosity. When the main post flag was lowered at 17:00, everyone within hearing range of the bugle stopped what they were doing, faced the flag, and saluted during the short ceremony. The Forth of July was a huge holiday that everyone looked forward to. Crowds would pack the parade field to witness the 50-gun Salute to the Nation. We kids especially enjoyed the Army band’s annual performance of The 1812 Overture, complete with howitzers. Uncle Sam was not just the provider of Daddy’s paycheck – he was the symbol of our homes, our schools, our lives. There were the unavoidable complaints about bureaucracy and base politics, but the idea of the federal government as an evil, insidious entity was as foreign to us as spoken Sanskrit.

Another thing that made this idyllic boyhood so incongruous was the fact that we lived a few scant miles from Fayetteville, a town that was plagued by violent crime, poverty, and racial intolerance. Fort Bragg was at the time (don’t know if this has changed) an open post. No guards or even gates at the borders. There was no physical boundary to keep the criminal elements out. Yet, to the best of my recollection, they stayed away in droves.

Many years (and several changes of station) later, my father retired from the Army and we moved off-base for the first time I could clearly remember. The difference was startling. Even after 15 years in the same house, I have yet to meet more than a handful of neighbors. Nobody knows anybody else or shows the least inclination to do so. Kids rarely play in the front yards, and the parks remain empty most of the day. My parents, convinced that the neighborhood was gang-ridden, virtually forbid my younger brother from venturing out of the house unchaperoned. Not only do people lock their doors and windows at night, but they install heavy wrought-iron grills with deadbolts over them as well. Although my daughter is only five, I cannot imagine granting her as a ten-year old even a fraction of the freedom I had at that age.

I understand that a lot of what I treasure from my boyhood are products of a world viewed through childish obliviousness to the ugliness of reality, and of my own highly selective memory. I understand that violent crime has steadily decreased over the past twenty years, and that my daughter is probably safer now than I ever was at her age. I understand that Uncle Sam does not always act in ways that are right and just, that America is not universally acclaimed as a bastion of freedom, and that many of our own citizens would rather swallow broken glass than salute the flag. I understand that a multicultural community living in harmony is the exception rather than the rule, and always has been. And yet, even so, I prefer to cling to the belief that it is the world that has changed, and not a change in myself, that makes me see bygone days so rosily-tinted. I was raised with the belief that America was a shining beacon to all the world, just as sure as the sky is blue and that fire is hot. And I would rather hold on to this with every last fiber of my being, and see my childhood as "normal" than give in to the cynicism, fear-mongering, and national self-loathing that so predominates our media.

So at the ripe old age of 33 I very definitely look back at my childhood as “the good old days”. Who could blame me?

[BoringDad]

I think you're melding "respect" with "admiration" more than it needs to be. Respect really boils down to politeness. In this sense of the word, every human being should be shown respect: not because they deserve it, but because you are a civilized person.

I'm of the school that no one deserves rudeness. Showing lack of courtesy debases you, not the person you're snubbing or insulting.
I think that you are incorrectly melding politeness with Respect
From dictionary.com
"respect
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem."

If you mean politeness, say politeness. I believe in politeness for all. However, respect (Deferential regard), should be earned, not given.

[MaxTheVool]

And I would rather hold on to this with every last fiber of my being, and see my childhood as "normal" than give in to the cynicism, fear-mongering, and national self-loathing that so predominates our media.


First of all, I have to compliment you on a moving and touching post. It sounds like you had a wonderful childhood, and I hope you instill that same sense of community and patriotism in your children.


But, I have to ask, what media-dominating national self-loathing are you talking about? I hear it mentioned from time to time, but I've never witnessed it myself.

Even Fahrenheit 9/11, which I think many people would point to, is (to me, at least) obviously a work of love for America.

People wouldn't be so passionate in their criticism of the current administration, and the current state of the nation, if we didn't love the US and what it (ideally) stands for so much.

[FairyChatMom]

Here are four quotes from this site (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/advice/teenagers/). Only two came since Christ was born. The Socrates quote was a popular poster in the 70s and may have been what FairyChatMom was trying to remember.
Yep, the Socrates quote is the one I recall. Thanks!

[Tikki]

FairyChatMom, I was also thinking of the Socrates quote when I read the OP. I suspect someone has said essentially the same thing every generation since.

[Lissa]

I think that you are incorrectly melding politeness with Respect
From dictionary.com
"respect
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem."

If you mean politeness, say politeness. I believe in politeness for all. However, respect (Deferential regard), should be earned, not given.

Yes, but that's not the entire definition. Some of the rest of the definition from dictionary.com is:

"Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects."

(bolding mine)

I'm of the opposite opinion: everyone is given my respect until they have proved they do not deserve it.

[Beauty Personified]

Not long ago, while listening to my grandfather talk about his youth, I realized that kids today - particularly those under driving age - don't have many work opportunities. Now, many kids today don't really need a job to survive, but then again, many could indeed benefit themselves and their families if they did.

How many types of jobs are available to a 12-year-old today. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is paperboy. (How old does someone have to be to work at McDonald's? :shudder: ) My grandfather, at 13, worked in a sawmill. :eek: I definitely understand why that would be considered too dangerous a place for a kid to work today, but it did prepare my grandfather for the future - i.e. a future as a working adult.

IMO, kids today don't have many possibilities when it comes to being prepared for working life as an adult. Too many people, by the time they graduate from high-school or even college, really don't know how to actually "work".

Another example comes from my sister's experience in nursing. Her graduating class in college was the last class in which it only took two years to get your diploma. After that, it became a four-year course. The big difference, however, was that my sister, almost right from the beginning, had hands on experience in hospitals as a student. (Granted, most of the work had to do with cleaning bedpans and the like.) The students in the new four-year program, however, might not even step into a hospital until their third year.

It's the same thing as apprenticeships. In the past, an engineer might teach his son everything he knows. His son may end up being just as good an engineer as his dad - maybe even better. But, even if such a situation occured today, the son may have trouble getting a job, or even being allowed to open his own business, if he doesn't have "the papers" to prove that he knows what he's doing. He may have to waste years of his life getting those papers, and have to settle for some grunt-work job to pay the bills until he gets them.

Anyhoo...

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Men had neat 3-piece suits, and those hats! Wide brim fedoras=and white too (in the summer).!

But then, are you telling me you'd want to dress like that every day in, say, a Southern California climae? Or for that matter, NYC or Chicago, in the summer? I'm telling ya, last time I was in Chi Town it was all I could do to keep any stitch on at all. A major scene on Michigan Avenue was narrowly averted. :D

I suspect that a lot of things that seem to have been great in the old days, weren't. For instance, the fast food chains have chased out a lot of the cool looking diners. Everyone misses those, and the intentionally retro modern ones are very popular. These sorts of places look good in old movies, especially the part where someone pulls a quarter or half-dollar out of a vest pocket to pay for a whole meal. (I ranted earlier that it would take nearly 50 quarters to buy two people a cheap meal today). Anyway, I suspect that a lot of the old fashioned diners probably weren't that great; the term "greasy spoon" must have arisen for a valid reason. When McDonalds and similar places, with their antiseptic approach to cleanliness, arrived on the scene, they probably did appeal to many who had had bad experiences from eating diner food.

Of course, that's not to say that I wouldn't prefer a clean well run traditional cafe, or maybe even a slightly scuzzy one, to a McD's.

[graeone]

Has anyone ever read "Does It Matter" by Alan Watts...?

While I can agree with most points given about nostalgia (trap?) and the liklihood of "things the way they were" (yeah right), I was reminded of a great book of essays all the while I've been reading this thread, called "DOES IT MATTER" by Alan Watts, and if you haven't yet checked it out, please do..and heck maybe we can get another thread goin' on that...the book, I mean...

anyhoo..






itcouldletgowecouldfly

[hlanelee]

I'm not a Thumper but Solomon was a wise man. I refer to Ecclesiastes 1:9 That which has been, shall be. That which has been done, shall be done. And there is no new thing under the sun.

[Odesio]

I think it all depends on who you are too. I once read an article about nostalgia which pointed out that blacks and women never get nostalgic for the "good old days".

It isn't true. Admittedly as a 28 year old white male I don't typically come into contact with elderly blacks. Last year at school there were more then a few retired eldery black men in my small engine class and I can tell you from personal experience they did talk about the good old days of the 50's and 60's.

Marc

[Bongmaster]

I think the nostalgia for the good old days comes in part from the massive increase in people. The more people you have, the more problems you see and in greater variety. Similar social problems have always been around, you just notice it more now that there are 6 billion people on the planet and we all can communicate easily.

[Lissa]

There's also a problem of mental "filtering."

We tend to notice ill-behaved children-- they stick out in our minds, but the well-behaved children we may not notice. Thus, it seems like kids are running wild 'these days."

We can have a dozen polite interractions with people in a day, but the one rude jerk is who we remember and talk about.

[Kizarvexius]

First of all, I have to compliment you on a moving and touching post. It sounds like you had a wonderful childhood, and I hope you instill that same sense of community and patriotism in your children.


But, I have to ask, what media-dominating national self-loathing are you talking about? I hear it mentioned from time to time, but I've never witnessed it myself.

Even Fahrenheit 9/11, which I think many people would point to, is (to me, at least) obviously a work of love for America.

People wouldn't be so passionate in their criticism of the current administration, and the current state of the nation, if we didn't love the US and what it (ideally) stands for so much.

First of all, thank you MaxTheVool for your compliments. They are much appreciated.

As far as the national self-loathing I referred to, I wasn’t thinking so much of the media itself, but more of those who enjoy the benefits of our citizenship, and yet march in the streets declaring the United States to be the new paragon of evil and oppression. I’m thinking of the young people who emerge from our educational system thinking that our history has been nothing but a struggle between the greedy white “haves” and the poor, oppressed, minority “have-nots.” The kids for whom the idea of honoring the flag or singing the national anthem is little more than an arcane ritual performed only at sporting events. I’m thinking of the people who seem to believe that anyone flying Old Glory outside of their house must be some kind of right-wing nutjob. I do think that the media fuels a lot this, but that’s another issue entirely.

I’ll give you an example. My brother recently finished his bachelor’s degree. Talking to him and his friends about their educational experiences was nothing short of terrifying. Their American History classes were often reduced to politically correct indoctrination sessions in which every conceivable injustice and atrocity committed by the government or by white settlers was spelled out in gory detail. The settlement of the West was nothing but the slaughter of Native Americans. The Industrial Revolution was nothing but the rape of the natural world and the enslavement of minorities. Any noble or courageous deed committed in the name of a cause other than minority rights was actually carried out for the most selfish of reasons. As this propaganda would have it, there is nothing in the American heritage worth cherishing. Nothing to be proud of. Just one shame after another. I heard one of these kids declare that “this country sucks” and express a desire to expatriate at the first opportunity, while his friends nodded sagely. As a history major, I’m all for confronting the evils of the past, but I’m not an advocate of wallowing in collective guilt. Overcome the evils of the past, I say. Learn from them. Become a better person, a better nation. Purge the disease that afflicts the body – but don’t turn around and reject the body for having fallen victim to the disease in the first place.

I’m also for keeping things in perspective, and feel that a twenty year-old kid who has lived his whole life in a peaceful, prosperous nation, who has never had to deal with pogroms, secret police, ethnic cleansing, the purging of the intelligentsia, the murder of political figures or the suppression of the free press has no business calling this country a tyrant state. And yet this is exactly the kind of jargon being spouted at some of the so-called peace rallies that have gotten so much media coverage in the past year. I’ve listened to the interviews, I’ve read the posters and the t-shirts, and they make me sick. I think that any such comparison is an insult to those who actually have undergone the horrors of oppression. If you want to protest against the war, by all means, do so. You’re entitled to it. Our ancestors bled and died to give you that right. To a certain degree I’ll even support you. But once you start invoking the jargon of the revolutionary and speak of our country as a evil entity – you have lost my respect, and I will cordially invite you to move to another country more in tune with your political ideals.

This applies to both sides of the political spectrum, by the way. As much as I scorn the America-bashers found within our own population, I despise with equal intensity those who use patriotism as a political weapon. Opposition to the war and to the president’s policies does not make one “un-American.” Though my personal beliefs are rooted in conservative soil, I loath figures like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, whose anti-intellectual hate mongering passes for patriotism in some circles. As far as Michael Moore goes, I have not seen his movies because as an historian I have no respect for his methods. Regardless of his ideology, I see him as a shameless attention whore who uses half truths and innuendos to paint a distorted picture and then refers to his propaganda as a “documentary”. I will not support his efforts with my money, just as I will not support Ann Coulter by buying her books.

In reflection, the unquestioned patriotism I experienced as an Army brat is probably a lot like the untainted religious beliefs of a person who has never been exposed to ideas from outside his faith. As an apolitical entity (and thank all that’s holy for that!) the military is not supposed to cast judgment on the mistakes of politicians. Soldiers take pride from a job well done, not from public opinion of that job’s worthiness. It’s not so much a matter of “my country right or wrong”, but more of “I am here because my country IS right.” In such an environment, there was much more of sense that we were all in it together. We all understood, for example, that most families would only remain in one place for a short time, and we compensated for this by being much more accepting of one another and learning to make friends more quickly. We knew that being a soldier was a dangerous vocation, and that our fathers might one day be asked to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country – and so we revered those who had gone before and took pride in a tradition of service, rather than calling for the blood of the politicians whose blunders had taken our loved ones away. We were prepared to accept that our side in any war would take casualties, but that the victor was the one who prevailed in the end, and not necessarily in the first days of fighting. One might make the argument that we had allowed ourselves to become unthinking pawns of the system. That we gave up our right to think for ourselves in exchange for peace of mind. That ignorance is bliss. Perhaps they’re right. But comparing that environment with the one that my daughter calls home – I know which I’d prefer. Guess I should’ve joined the Army.

I’ll conclude my rant by swinging this back on topic (at last). Seeing the past through rose-colored glasses is always an exercise in mental myopia. As any historian can tell you, there’s no such thing as 20/20 hindsight. We are not raised inside a total perspective vortex, and are forced to frame our concepts of right, wrong, tradition, authority, faith, and family on our own little corners of the world. We are what we know. It is only to be expected that we should look back longingly upon the people, places and events that made us who we are, and to see them in an idealized fashion. As other posters have pointed out, complaints about the decline of morals and the impudence of children are as old as language itself. But the world stubbornly keeps spinning.

[BoringDad]

Yes, but that's not the entire definition. Some of the rest of the definition from dictionary.com is:

"Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects."

(bolding mine)

I'm of the opposite opinion: everyone is given my respect until they have proved they do not deserve it.
Whoa, that's some mighty selective quoting there.
n.
1 A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.
2 The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3 Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
4 respects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.
Bolding from dictionary.com. "Paying respects" is a little different creature in typical usage than "That young'un should show me some respect!" I do not show deferential regard for anyone unless they show me some reason they deserve it, and do not expect others to respect me unless I deserve it. I do expect and give politeness, but not deference.

Perhaps I sound too callous and whiney. Ah well. It's already typed. It's nice for society that you are more generous towards strangers.

[BoringDad]

The kids for whom the idea of honoring the flag or singing the national anthem is little more than an arcane ritual performed only at sporting events.
My childhood is about 10 years before yours, but I have never grasped the concept of "honoring the flag." It seems like idol worship. I honor and love our country, but the flag is just a piece of cloth originally intended to distinguish troops in battle.


The settlement of the West was nothing but the slaughter of Native Americans. The Industrial Revolution was nothing but the rape of the natural world and the enslavement of minorities.
But the settlement of the West WAS mostly the story of killing and displacing Native Americans. Say a man breaks into your house, kills your daughter, donates your car to charity, and burns down your house. Should the story concentrate on the charitable donation, or the majority of the actions? Popular culture gives you your heroes from the ages, schools teach the things less talked about.

So back to the OP, I'd say that this kind of an education is preferable to showing a false picture of a pristine America. It is an improvement in kids instead of something bad. Sure, some overdo it, but for the most part, they come away with a better picture of how we got our luxurious life.

[Zoe]

There were some wonderful things that I will treasure about growing up in the 1940's and 1950's. And there were a lot of hidden unpleasant things too.

I always felt safe. There were no guns at school that we knew of. Our idea of a "rough guy" was someone with a D.A. haircut, a motorcycle, and a habit of smoking at the coal shed behind the school.

It was a rural Southern town of 2,000. And while we knew our neighbors, we also knew their business. If a child was born out of wedlock, he was snubbed -- no matter how bright or likeable he was. The children would be friendly to him, but the parents would build social walls.

If a girl got pregnant, she was trash...unless she was from a good family. In that case, a secret marriage that had taken place months earlier was announced. Or there were lots of premature babies born about seven months after the wedding.

Businesses passed from father to son, but not from father to daughter or mother to daughter.

Crime statistics were lower, certainly. Domestic violence and child abuse went unreported. And rape often went unreported too because she would certainly be blamed and ruined.

College women were literally locked inside their dorms at night. Men were free to wander.

Women didn't work...unless you counted the sunrise to bedtime chores at home. They didn't get credit for social security then either. Women aged quickly then.

The Black kids in town lived a few blocks from the high school but had to take a bus seven miles to a separate school. I did not know the name of a single black teenager in my town, even though I knew adults.

I don't have my youth anymore. The streets are crowded. There are twice as many Americans now as when I was born. But I have it so much easier than my parents did. Part of that has been the choice not to be trapped by the rules and roles of society.

I look forward to a time when people don't have to worry about how they will pay for medication and health care. There's always room for improvement.

BTW, I carry a cell phone for emergencies. Nobody told me that I had to turn it on for people to call me. It works just fine like that.

[John Carter of Mars]

By Zoe: "BTW, I carry a cell phone for emergencies. Nobody told me that I had to turn it on for people to call me. It works just fine like that."

Old fogey. Or is it fogy? Or could it be fogie? Help me with my spelling, Teach! ;)

[Balle_M]

If you are young, the good old days are right now.

But the new old days have lots of good things going for it...I prefer to look ahead, but retain my right to bitch. My bitch of the month is that I still think it is shocking that university age students seem to be either politically unaware, or apathetic to what is going on right now. In the "good old days" we were mobilized.

I grew up in the Sixties & Seventies - the majority of students were no more "mobilized" then than now.

[Kizarvexius]

But the settlement of the West WAS mostly the story of killing and displacing Native Americans. Say a man breaks into your house, kills your daughter, donates your car to charity, and burns down your house. Should the story concentrate on the charitable donation, or the majority of the actions? Popular culture gives you your heroes from the ages, schools teach the things less talked about..

I simply can't agree with you here, BoringDad. I won't deny or whitewash the atrocities committed in the name of "progress" and so-called Manifest Destiny, but you are making an invalid generalization. I make no claims to being an expert on American history (I concentrated on Ancient Greece and Rome), but I think I can at least say with great confidence that your casual dismissal of 100 years of history as little more than a program of genocide is somewhat on the shallow end, and just as narrow-minded as that of the jingoistic flag waver who refuses to acknowledge the more shameful aspects of the Western experience.

So back to the OP, I'd say that this kind of an education is preferable to showing a false picture of a pristine America. It is an improvement in kids instead of something bad. Sure, some overdo it, but for the most part, they come away with a better picture of how we got our luxurious life.

I think it all comes down to the fact that you and I don’t seem to agree on what constitutes “overdoing it”. In my way of thinking you CAN instill in your children a sense of pride for what their people and their nation have achieved, without glossing over or wallowing in the gory details. How about a little balance here?