Billiards - Cutthroat Rules

[Enright3]

The other day at work I was playing 8-ball and a third person came in to the break room. We decided we'd play cutthroat the next game. Gee what a surprise to find that we all had different versions of how to play.

We all agree that the primary object is to be the last player with balls on the table. The 15 balls are divided into three groups, 1-5, 6-10, 11-15. Each player is responsible for 'protecting' his group of balls by trying to sink his oponents balls. However, this is where the similarities ended.

For example, one of us thought that you chose your object balls by the order in which you shoot (ie person who breaks takes 1-5, next shooter takes 6-10, last shooter takes 11-15). One of us thought that you chose your object balls by sinking a ball on your turn (~me).

Furthermore, one of the guys wanted to allow all slop shots to count. Which is really weird, because in 8-ball he is mr. rules. To me, you call your shot.

So... what do you guys think?

[BigJoe]

I think I need your company's address so I can send a resume. :D

[Enright3]

Ohhh and sooooo close too. We just hired a Big Joe this morning. We currently have openings for a Medium Joe, a Big Bob, and I think there's a Tiny Tim opening in the mail room.

Actually I just started working her about four weeks ago. Pretty cool so far.

[Gazoo]

Here's how I've played it:

1) Who has which balls is determined in advance, the person who has the 1-5 gets to break.

2) Slop counts.

3) A scratch results in both other players pulling one of their pocketed balls and placing them back on the table.

4) You are allowed to make your own ball if you want (sometimes handy for ball positioning if you're close to winning).

Those are the rules I've played by most of the time, but, as your OP points out, there are many variations. One variation has the balls assigned by dealing 15 cards (5 each). That way you don't know who you're attacking - it adds a little wrinkle to it.

[Rhythmdvl]

Ahh, Cutthroat. Wonderful, friendly game. In addition to the variations of the above rules, it is good to know what happens if one person scratches when it is down to two players. Does the third person get back in the game? Or what happens if there are only two balls on the table, yours and your opponent. What happens if you knock them both in? Hours and hours and hours and hours and hours played, all beget by the simple phrase

"just one game, honest!"

[Enright3]

Ahh, Cutthroat. Wonderful, friendly game. In addition to the variations of the above rules, it is good to know what happens if one person scratches when it is down to two players. Does the third person get back in the game? Or what happens if there are only two balls on the table, yours and your opponent. What happens if you knock them both in? Hours and hours and hours and hours and hours played, all beget by the simple phrase

"just one game, honest!"



We did all seem to agree that if you were eliminated and someone scratched you would be given new life. And, as far as the quote "Just one game, honest" is this sort of like (cover your eye, children) "Let me put it in for just ONE stroke!"?

[obfusciatrist]

1) Who has which balls is determined in advance, the person who has the 1-5 gets to break.


This is the way I played in college (haven't played much since then).


2) Slop counts.


Nope. Slop only counts if you are playing with an 8-year-old (or a woman you hope will put out later in the evening).


3) A scratch results in both other players pulling one of their pocketed balls and placing them back on the table.


When I played this was true even if it was down to just two people. This got the third back in the game.

Once, while a little tipsy, we managed to get together a group of 15-player Cutthroat. Everybody had one ball and if there was a scratch (using very strict definition of scratch, not just a pocketed cue ball) we reracked and started over. One game took about three hours, six pizzas, and untold beers.


4) You are allowed to make your own ball if you want (sometimes handy for ball positioning if you're close to winning).


This wouldn't be allowed. It was the only chance for someone who was completely outclassed.

But as everyone has pointed out there isn't really a "standard" version of Cutthroat. It was probably invented because men tend to travel in odd-numbered packs.

[CnoteChris]

Here's how we played:

*you lag, whoever shoots closest to the bumper breaks. Then the next closest, etc..

*When a person makes a ball in, he/she chooses which group to take. You call your shots here. You take forever to make a ball and your screwed. But the advantage here is you can pick and choose according to your skill.

*slop counts. It's like nine-ball. However, it only counts after you choose your group.

*suicide play. This has actually created some arguments, but according to our rules you can hit one of your own in and continue play.

*last one standing doesn't have to take off any clothing ;)

That's how we play it here in the Twin Cities.

Aside: I think you need to get the rules straight with the oponent before you break. You'd be surprised at the amount of goofy rules people come up with. Negotiate and win!!

[UncleBeer]

Enright has it correct. At least that's the way we also play at work. It must be in the employee handbook somewhere.

[Northern Piper]

My gang plays it by your approach, enright - you have to qualify by sinking a ball in one of the groups. Only after you've qualified (the ball you shot come back up) are you allowed to put down other players' balls. And, if you haven't qualified yet, and someone else has, you're not allowed to shoot their balls - only the balls of an unqualified set.

Once you've qualified, it's a scratch if you pocket your own ball.

If you're down to two players, and one scratches, both the opposing players get a ball back, so you can come back from the dead.

[Omniscient]

My rules, and we'll see how they play at the office on Monday.


Who breaks and the order of play is always decided randomly, by a lag, or rock-paper-scissors, or frequently winner of the last game first and the next to on order of arrival. Follow up games generally just go in order of finish of the last cut-throat game.
Who shoots what is decided the same way as in 8-ball. After the first player sinks a ball, and finishes his turn he picks a series. Ditto the second player.
Depending on how good the players are, we sometimes assign the balls in order or turn, because a good player may run all balls 1-5 and you won't know who's out of the game.
Slop counts.
Pull one ball for each player on a scratch, and a player does get a second chance if he's out.
You can drop your own balls whenever you want, and keep shooting.

[kinoons]

The rules that my father, brother, and I have been playing are the same as listed above by omniscent, with the exception that whom has what balls is predetermined. player 1 is 1-5, player 2 6-10, player 3 11-15

[Feynman]

Unfortunately, the American Poolplayers Association (probably the most authoritative source) does not publish Cutthroat rules on its website. A Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=cutthroat+pool+rules&meta=lr%3D%26hl%3Den&btnG=Google+Search) turned up these links:

Ultimate Pool User Guide, Chapter 7 (Cutthroat) (http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jhs/shareware/Pool/UserGuideFiles/chapter7.html)

Starting player has balls 1-5, second player 6-10, third 11-15. Slop counts. A scratch is the only foul and results in ball in hand behind the head string.

OnTheSnap.com (http://www.onthesnap.com/rules/cutthroat.htm)

You choose a group of balls when you sink a ball. The General Pocket Billiards Rules (http://www.onthesnap.com/rules/general_rules.html) apply otherwise.

Cue Talk Magazine (http://members.xoom.com/ctwebmag/throat.htm)

Starting player has balls 1-5, etc. Slop is optional. Foul is scratch or failure to cause a numbered ball to contact the cusion. Foul results in cue ball behind the head string.

Billy Aard's site ("")

Starting player appears to have balls 1-5 (unclear). Call of ball and pocket (but not intermediate activity) mandatory. Foul is scratch or failure of any ball (numbered or cue) to contact the cushion. Foul results in loss of shooter's ball or restoration of opponents' balls. Scratch or jumped ball results in ball in hand behind the head string; for other fouls the cue ball is played from where it comes to rest.

[ricepad]

We play pretty much as CnoteChris described, where you don't know what balls are yours until after you've sunk one. You could well be out of the game before you even get a shot, which makes good lagging skills important. Otherwise, you pray for a scratch to bring you back up on the table.

[Homer]

We currently have openings for a Medium Joe, a Big Bob, and I think there's a Tiny Tim opening in the mail room.

::raising hand:: OOOH OOOH OOH! I don't use a crutch, but I do have kinda a gimpy foot, if that counts!

God bless us one and all,

--Tim (Tiny)

[pulykamell]

obfusciatrist -- what's the strict definition of "scratch?" Do you mean "foul" as in not hitting the object ball/slopping/etc? I'm just curious. I always thought a scratch was pocketing the cue.

As for the rules I play by, it's always been breaker is 1-5, next is 6-10, last is 11-15. Pocketing the cue is the only foul. Slop counts. You are permitted to hit your own ball in. A player that is "out" may reenter the game on a scratch. However, if you hit both yours and an oppenents ball in on the last shot, I haven't the faintest clue. If the object is to be the last player with balls on the table, then either:

a) no one wins
b) if you sink opponent's in first, you win; otherwise s/he
wins (kinda shaky grounds for this one)
c) you decide on a mutually agreeable solution beforehand
d) fight to the death

[Feynman]

A scratch occurs when the cue ball enters a pocket, a jump occurs when the cue ball or any numbered ball leaves the table. A foul is any illegal shot. Both a scratch and a jump are almost always fouls.

In 8-ball (http://www.onthesnap.com/rules/8_Ball_Rules.html):

On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail... Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.

[voltaire]

1) Who has which balls is determined in advance, the person who has the 1-5 gets to break.
2) Slop counts.
3) A scratch results in both other players pulling one of their pocketed balls and placing them back on the table.
4) You are allowed to make your own ball if you want (sometimes handy for ball positioning if you're close to winning).


These are the rules I've always played by, except with a bit of a variation on #2.

Slop counts, BUT you don't get to shoot again.

[Munch]

THANK you, Feynman! For once, someone actually has the sense to pull out ACTUAL rules in a discussion on pool.

I've noticed my entire life that NO one knows the rules to pool, as they believe what their older brother told them 15 years ago to be gospel.

It absolutely amazes me to see people get into heated arguments around a pool table, someone pulls out the rules, and the offender STILL has the gall to say "Yeah, but those rules don't count!"

Connor

[Enright3]

THANK you, Feynman! For once, someone actually has the sense to pull out ACTUAL rules in a discussion on pool.

I've noticed my entire life that NO one knows the rules to pool, as they believe what their older brother told them 15 years ago to be gospel.

It absolutely amazes me to see people get into heated arguments around a pool table, someone pulls out the rules, and the offender STILL has the gall to say "Yeah, but those rules don't count!"

Connor

I wouldn't exactly call it "Gall", Conner. 8-ball, just like cards and a million other games are played in social circles as well as in tournament play. Are you saying that in every type of competition you've ever been in, you've only played by "tournament rules"? Go into 99% of the bars in America and play 8-ball. If you scratch, the other player will take the cue ball and play it from behind the header line. Even though "by the rules" it should be ball in hand. Rules are more about how you agree to play than there being only ONE way to play.

The old timers at my brothers bar play 7 point* pitch with a cut deck**. You won't find those rules in any rule book, but if you go to his bar to play Pitch, you'd better be prepared to play with that variation.

*Hi, Lo, 4 Jacks (2jokers) and Game
**3's, 4's , and 5's are culled from the deck.

[pulykamell]

In my experience playing pool, very few people play by official "rules." -- especially in a bar, where variations have to be made to accomodate for coin-operated machines that don't allow you to respot object balls.

You should always review certain points of play before taking the table with a player you've never played with before. For example, in eight-ball under British rules, you get two shots after a foul, not one. But some people play that you just get two free shots, whether the first goes in or not; others play that if you pocket the first, the free shot carries over, so in effect, you get one free miss. Unless you're playing in a tournament, be prepared to play local variations. Some people have stricter definitions of slop than others; I've played with people who consider it slop if you double kiss an object ball and not call it. Others simply stop at a ball-pocket call, no matter how it goes in.

Another rule is the 8-ball going in on the break. I've had this happen to me once. Under the strict definition of 8-ball, this is considered a LOSS, and in a tournament play it is a loss. However, most people I've played with consider it a win, since it happens so rarely.

So just use common sense. Review the main rules, figure out points of difference, agree on them, and just play.

[Munch]

No. I'm certainly not saying that. In fact, I didn't even mention how I play. The ONLY thing I mentioned is the fact that people INSIST they know the "official" rules, and don't waver from their belief even when shown proof.

Yes, I'm certainly aware of house rules. I play by house rules. Me and my friends will willfully and knowingly alter rules as it suits us. But we certainly don't make any pretensions that we are playing by official rules.

And where exactly did I say that you should only play by official rules? Oh, yeah. I didn't.

[DoctorJ]

My version of "Cutthroat" differs considerably from the above versions.

Before the break, we used the "Kelly peas"--the little bottle with fifteen numbered plastic balls--to determine who had what balls. You might have the 2, 5, 8, 14, and 15. Unlike the above, you're trying to knock yours in rather than everyone elses. No one tells which balls are theirs until one gets knocked in, and its owner claims it.

Object balls (the one you gotta hit first) are "open-ended". That is, after the break, the 1, 8, and 15 are all "good". If you make the 1, the 2 is good. If you make the 8, the 7 and 9 are good. If you make the 4 on the break or a combo, the 5 and 7 are good. Thus, if you drew the 1, 7, 8, 9, and 15, you were in good shape. If you drew the 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, you're screwed.

Slop only counts if it's really impressive or if everyone is really drunk.

Dr. J

[Enright3]

And where exactly did I say that you should only play by official rules? Oh, yeah. I didn't.


Hello, it's me being big again. I misread the 'tone' of your email. If I sounded snotty, I apologize.

Bob McC
(real name used only for apologies)

[ricepad]

We've always played that you claim your *ahem* balls only after you've sunk one. Naturally, you're better off analyzing the lie of the table and the remaining balls before you choose. From time to time, you may find that you're better off selecting a group with fewer still in play, if one (or more) happens to be in a location that is more difficult than most to sink.

Then again, we've also typically played by whichever rules are used by the biggest SOB playing.

[Sam Stone]

Join a league, and then you'll know the rules.

Or, go to a billiards store and buy a copy of the BCA rulebook.

"Bar Pool" rules differ from bar to bar, and generally suck. For instance the 'no slop shot' rule is just plain stupid, and almost unenforceable. Just what is a slop shot? Say I call it straight in, and it skids off the side rail and in. That's a slop shot. But what if it touches the point of the pocket on the way in. Is that a slop shot? Where's the dividing line? In bars, you wind up with the other guy saying, "you clipped the rail first", and you either back down and agree, or you go outside and settle it. Stupid. Anyway, it makes for bad pool, because part of the strategy for choosing a shot is picking ones where the apparent pocket size is larger because of the ability to hit the rail and still drop, or the existance of an object ball near the pocket that you can clip off of and still make the shot if you miss slightly.

Bar rules typically don't allow for ball-in-hand, and fouls are not called if a ball doesn't touch a rail. That allows all sort of idiot safeties. So to get around that problem, bar pool is played such that safeties are 'dirty pool', and not socially acceptable. That reduces the game to a ball-pocketing contest, instead of a complex strategy game. More stupidity, but the bar owners like that on coin-op tables because it gets the games over with quicker.

If you think safeties are 'dirty pool' and slop shots are for little girls, I suggest you watch a tape of Efren Reyes or Buddy Hall playing 9-ball. The safety play is fascinating, and the most difficult part of playing pool.

[Enright3]

Are you from this country? I have played 8-ball in a lot of bars, and I have never had anyone call a shot that clips the edge before going in a pocket 'a slop shot'. A slop shot example would be shooting into a cluster of balls very hard in hopes that some of your balls go in.

While I've never joined a league, nor do I plan to. I'd be surprised if there were any official rules for cutthroat. I've never heard of a cutthroat tournament. I'm not saying there haven't been any... but they're not very popular if they exist.

...and finally, after reading the above posts I have one thought on cutthroat rules. If you pick your balls only after making a shot, then going third SUCKS.

[ricepad]

You got it, Enright3 - going third sucks. That's why you have to be good at lagging!

[pulykamell]

Enright--

I'm from Chicago, and I've played several players who consider clipping the pocket "slop" if you don't call it.
Same goes for unintentional double-kissing (see my previous post.) Now, to be far, these players are few and very far between, but they certainly annoy the hell out of me.

[CurtC]

I'm having a hard time comprehending the idea of a ball touching a rail (adjacent to the pocket) as "slop" if it's not called. Most of the time when a ball goes in, it hits part of a rail. Do they play so that only shots that fall into the hole without hitting any sides count (unless called exactly)? "Two ball in the corner, and it's gonna hit the back of the pocket before falling."

Of course, I play so that I call a ball in a specific pocket, and how it gets from here to there is completely up to me. But I don't play on coin-op tables in bars very often. Even when I do, the people that I play with are usually willing to play by BCA rules.

Cut-throat is a little less formal, but I think it works out better to determine which groups of balls everyone has before the break. If I'm playing with decent players, we'll play "gentleman's call", if not, we'll let slop count. It's best to discuss this ahead of time.

[Sam Stone]

The other problem with 'no slop' rules is that you usually lose your turn if you call the ball straight in and it goes off another ball. The problem with this is that it's often very hard to tell if the ball touched another one.

The proper way to play is simply call the ball and pocket. It doesn't matter how it gets there, as long as it goes in the correct pocket.

And pool without ball-in-hand rules makes for a lousy game.