Handicap Drivers -- a scam?

[furnishesq]

Two years ago I posted on Straight Dope that I truly believe that handicap driving is a real problem in the US -- it is abused.

Here is a synopsis:

1) Many people who get handicap driver status are abusing the system -- they could easily walk the extra space it takes from their car to whatever it is they are going to.

2) Another portion are of advanced age or have some diffeciency that actually makes driving unsafe. How many times have you been behind someone like this, with handicap plates, either driving too slow or sporatically. As sad as it is, they should no longer be driving.

3) There are so many LEGTIMATE handicap drivers. Someone paralyzed with legitimate equipment in their cars to drive safely, a diabetic, an elderly pesron with painful arthritis who can drive with ease but who has trouble walking. . .

My bottom line -- it should be hard to get handicap plates. It should only go to those who can drive safely and efficently -- and I also believe that those who park illegaly in handicaped spaces should be fined harshly.

Two years ago, I was critized harshly for this. In part I blame myself -- I was not clear enough. And in retrospect it may have sounded bigoted.

But two years have passed and I really reflected on the comment I received on this board --- and I feel the same as I do now.

Am I off base? Your thoughts. . .

[aruvqan]

It can still be difficult to get handicapped plates. You *do* need a doctor's signature on the paperwork.

FWIW, I have plates, and in general I *dont* park in the space unless I am having a particularly painful day, I just tend to walk slow and take my time=)

[GorillaMan]

You assume that "he can walk ok, so he's not got a problem".....what about if he has a heart defect, where he's only supposed to walk short distances? I've met people who've been in such a situation.

[furnishesq]

You assume that "he can walk ok, so he's not got a problem".....what about if he has a heart defect, where he's only supposed to walk short distances? I've met people who've been in such a situation.


Now that is an excellent, excellent point.

[SmackFu]

I figure the people who get mad at handicapped parking spaces are the same people who circle the lot for five minutes to save two minutes of walking.

[Eva Luna]

Speaking as someone who once had a temporary handicapped pacard (post-surgically, I spent most of a year and a couple other chunks of several months without the use of one leg), I would love nothing better than the proper enforcement of existing handicapped parking regulations.

I don't think we should make the decals harder to get - my own orthopedic surgeon somehow thought I wasn't eligible for one, in spite of my inability to walk, because he thought I couldn't get one if I couldn't drive (ever try driving a stick shift with one leg?). But in IL at least, the decal-holder can use it in someone else's car, as long as he/she is a passenger. All you need is a letter from your doctor stating that you can't walk more than 100 yards IIRC without the aid of a wheelchair, cane, walker, other orthopedic device, or another person. Send it in with a 1-page form, and you're all set. Which is as it should be.

However, why shouldn't we make it easier for enforcement officials to tie the decal to the person? I've known of far too many people who "borrow" Grandma's decal and use it to commute downtown; I really doubt all the young, healthy-looking people I saw parking in the Loop with decals and then sprinting off to work on spike heels were suffering from invisible but insidious illnesses, such as congestive heart failure or MS.

f cops could check the ID of the person using the decal against a master list of decal holders, enforcement would be much easier. The darn decals have serial numbers on them; how difficult could it be?

[bizzwire]

You assume that "he can walk ok, so he's not got a problem".....what about if he has a heart defect, where he's only supposed to walk short distances? I've met people who've been in such a situation.

First, I was always told that mild exercise, such as...um...I dunno...say, walking...was a good thing.

Second, if someone is in such a condition that walking 50 feet could cause him (or her) to blow a gasket, they probably shouldn't be driving at all. What if he vapor locks on the freeway, or at a farmer's market?

[Mr. Moto]

The system is routinely abused, though.

My wife used to work with a woman who inherited a car from a disabled relative. Instead of changing the plates, or simply parking in regular spaces, she proceeded to merrily park in handicapped spaces even though she was fully able bodied.

My wife had to instruct her never to do this at the office, which was in her power to do as her supervisor.

[Abbie Carmichael]

Second, if someone is in such a condition that walking 50 feet could cause him (or her) to blow a gasket, they probably shouldn't be driving at all.

I've known asthmatics with handicap stickers. I guess since an asthma attack can hit at any time (especially with physical exertion) everyone who has it should just stay at home :rolleyes:

The fine for parking in a handicapped space where I live has gone up to $200. I agree it should be a harsh fine, but $200 is TOO harsh in my opinion. The city only fines $50 for parking in a fire lane, sheesh.

[Early Out]

The fine for parking in a handicapped space where I live has gone up to $200. I agree it should be a harsh fine, but $200 is TOO harsh in my opinion. The city only fines $50 for parking in a fire lane, sheesh.Fines aren't set based upon some notion of which infractions are "worse" than others. They're set at a certain level to discourage people from doing the bad thing. They'll keep increasing the fine until people stop parking illegally in the handicapped spaces. When that happens, they will have discovered the correct fine amount!

[TeaElle]

First, I was always told that mild exercise, such as...um...I dunno...say, walking...was a good thing.

Second, if someone is in such a condition that walking 50 feet could cause him (or her) to blow a gasket, they probably shouldn't be driving at all. What if he vapor locks on the freeway, or at a farmer's market?
My father had a bad heart. Walking around outside in the Mississippi heat was bad for his condition, as it made him winded and edematous, and his doctor didn't want him to do it anymore than was necessary. Walking around inside an air-conditioned mall or air-conditioned school gym, however, was good for him, and his doctor was all in favor of it. A handicapped plate was the answer. It limited his time outdoors and exposure to the heat which was not good for him and made it easier to get the exercise that was beneficial.

Where and when did you get your medical degree, bizzwire? Inquiring minds would love to know.

[Zoe]

I don't think that the OP is unreasonable. I had to use the temporary tags myself for about two years. I was glad to be able to give them up!

I have a friend who can move only his eyes, mouth, and throat. He travels in a van that his brother drives. We have had to wait for non-handicapped people to move their cars out of handcapped spaces. If you are not handicapped and you abuse that parking space, you are a primo asshole.

But you can't always tell by watching someone walk. And it isn't always a matter of checking the tags against the temporary sign. You may be driving your handicapped sister to a restaurant in your car, for example.

There are no easy solutions that I can think of except pressure on local stores to have tow-a-way trucks on duty for those without any tags.

[cookeze]

I have a question for those who are able bodied who are complaining about who is using the handicapped parking. Why are you complaining?

It's not like you can park there. They aren't taking your space.

So why is it your problem?

Now if you were some kind of cripple in a wheelchair and your space is taken and you see someone come dancing out of the parked car and doing somersaults, then I could see your complaint. But that guy might be picking up Grandma. You didn't want her driving, right?

But...you...can...never...park...there.

What do you want? To get rid of those spaces?

As for sidewalk diagnosis---well, what can you tell is wrong with a fully dressed person? A missing leg or arm? Sure. A wheelchair or a walker? No question. And then there's those old people who walk at 2 miles a day. though I don't think many of those are driving. I really can't think of any others.

Most medical problems are not noticible. I've got a walking handicap. Blocked iliac artery in my left leg. It's invisible, by the way. I don't limp or anything. I'm also deaf. Also invisible. Caused by the same disease (polyarteritis nodosa). Happened when I was 23.
I'm in my fifties now.

But back then, for a short while I used the special parking. Young guy, obviously healthy to look at, probably a faker. I'm sure someone thought that.

At first I had trouble walking 50 feet. For 4 years I went swimming for 2 hours a day and at night I'd walk a 2 mile circuit. Walk 125 paces one night. Stop for pain to go away, then do 125 more. Next night 130 paces. Worked my way up to 2 miles nonstop. Still hurts, though.

Now I don't use the handicapped spaces. My doc says he'll sign for me anytime, but I don't want it. I park at the furthest part of the parking lot and walk. It does me good. But for some, this kind of exercise doesn't help--it hurts.

And some of them have put in just as much work as I have and it just doesn't do them any good.
They've got enough problems without you butting in.

Let the doctors decide who is eligibe to park there. That's their job.

Let the cops enforce it. They got a job, too.
If you think you've spotted a cheater, fine, call it in. But it's not the spaces that are the problem.

[Primaflora]

I've got one. It's for my younger kid with autism and ADHD. Perfectly legal and above aboard where I live. My paed filled out the form, I paid my fee, they assessed it and sent us one. It's got the kid's name on it and we only use it when he's in the car. I don't have one for my older kid although I could probably get one if I applied.

Yes, people look at us sideways but they're not the people trying to wrangle two kids with autism in a carpark. It's easier to use the disability bays because there's more space between the cars and because we're not forced to walk through the carpark while K chases bright shiny objects in one direction and M heads off in the other direction entirely.

I have no idea whether people think we are abusing the system. I don't particularly care. I'm more interested in keeping my kids safe. I don't see how a very few carpark spaces makes such a huge honking difference to the rest of the planet.

We actually have a two tier system here where you get free parking in metered spots if you qualify as severely disabled enough.

Oh and there's one mall here where it's well-known that respite workers and their clients hang out in the day. I very rarely use the disability parks there unless there's a lot of them free.

[bizzwire]

Where and when did you get your medical degree, bizzwire? Inquiring minds would love to know.

Gorilla Man posited a specific case, countering one assumption with another. I saw him his assumption, and raised him one. That's all. It was not a blanket condemnation of all people with handicapped plates as goldbricking malingerers.

[Mangetout]

The fine for parking in a handicapped space where I live has gone up to $200. I agree it should be a harsh fine, but $200 is TOO harsh in my opinion.I don't really think there is any such thing as 'too harsh' here - unless it is somehow possible to park in such a space without realising you have done so, but even that would be a problem with the markings of the space, not the level of fine. Anyone daft enough to park in a space they are not allowed to use, knowing that there is a penalty for so doing, deserves the penalty, whatever it is.

[pullin]

Saw an interesting case of handicap parking use here at work. Co-worker#1 (who I know is unhandicapped) has been parking in the Hcap spaces (complete with bluetag). I thought this was odd, but kept my mouth shut. One day at lunch I saw the reason. Another coworker (#2) is blind, and uses vanpool to get to work. He (blind coworker#2) was carefully working his way to #1's car with his cane and it hit me: He can't run errands, Drs Office, etc. since the vans only run morning and evening!! Coworker#1 is helping out, and the handicapped space is so #2 can: a) find the car (always in same spot), and b) doesn't have to negotiate traffic lanes in the parking lot. I guess there are lots of reasons for healthy folks in the hcap spaces, not all of them obvious.

[furnishesq]

I figure the people who get mad at handicapped parking spaces are the same people who circle the lot for five minutes to save two minutes of walking.


In my case that isn't the case. I usually park in the farthest space because looking for a space is idiotic. (Ever have an idiot in his car stalk you as you walk down a parking lot to your car in hopes to grab your spot?)

Second, in this age of the ADA (in the United States) handicap parking spaces do not necessarily equate to the "nearest" spot to the front door. I notice many times these handicapped spaces are now closest to a cut in the sidewalk so that wheelchairs can easily get on the sidewalk. Often times these spots are farther away than normal spots.

The examples given so far -- "I am non-handicapped but I drive someone who is" -- well that is a LEGITIMATE case and I have no problem with that.

I can see boths sides to the "invisible, but deadly ailment" argument -- though I get kind of nervous knowing someone could drop dead at a moments notice, they are aware of this, but decide to get behind the wheel of a machine -- that seems very dangerous to that person and the community around them.

And can pregnant women get handicap permits? If not, they should. They deserve that courtesy.

[ivylass]

Ivylad has one. After three surgeries on his back, the installation of a morphine pump, and now a rhizotomy to kill the nerves that are slowly being strangled by scar tissue, he finds it difficult to walk without a cane.

He's only 40. Do you think he's happy he has to park in a handicapped space? A lot of times the spots are taken up by people who, as far as we can tell, don't need them. I reserve judgement, however, because I know a lot of disabilities are unseen to the naked eye.

I am scrupulous about not abusing the tag. I had to scold my BIL who jokingly said, "Hey, we have the sticker! We can park in a handicapped space!" even though Ivylad was not in the car. My MIL, my SILs, and I all jumped on him with both feet and he quickly retreated, realizing it was a bad joke.

I await the day for some asshole to come up to us and confront Ivylad for not needing the sticker, because he is fairly young and only has a cane, not a wheelchair.

[Elenfair]

In Minnesota, it apparently requires the signature of a couple people to get a placard.

A friend of ours who was in a terrible car crash in March has one now - waiting for a temporary (6 month) one to come in. She walks with a cane at this time and can't walk long distances. She can drive short whiles, but she has to be careful. She's a safe, efficient driver and she knows where her limits are. Her legs were crushed in the accident (but no breaks - she's made of titanium, we suspect - the doctors were convinced she was in pieces) and caused severe nerve compression damage from the knees down.

It took her a while before she was able to drive, and for the time being, uses handicapped parking so she doesn't hurt herself more when she goes shopping.

She's 23. She gets sideways glances when she parks there... occasionally she'll get some weird comments... though the cutest yet was from an elderly gentleman parked next to us at Home Depot who asked "You're too young to be stuck using a cane! What happened?" so she replied "car accident..." his response "Good luck, sister... hang in there!"

Ah, Minnesota, where people are actually nice... ;)

[whiterabbit]

If pregnant women got permits -- unless they're having a really bad pregnancy and genuinely need it -- then none of the rest of us would be able to park in them. There are a lot of pregnant women out there. I am not trying to be hard-hearted, but I don't think simple pregnancy should be enough to qualify. Neither should being elderly; the people who obviously shouldn't be driving with plates disturb me. My grandma has never driven, but she has a hanging thingy that she takes with her wherever she goes.

I only get mad when I see people parking in them without permits. Somebody could have borrowed somebody else's thingy, or else they might have one of those invisible problems. So I don't have a heart attack as long as a permit is visible. If it's not theirs, then eventually karma will catch up with them, I assume.

Louisiana has a system where they give you an ID that matches your hanging thingy (I've got a plate and one of those things so if, say, I'm in my boyfriend's car we can use the blue spots) but I'm told they never, ever check. I think it's a good idea, but if it's not enforced, what's the point?

[whiterabbit]

My grandma has never driven, but she has a hanging thingy that she takes with her wherever she goes.

I meant to add that she needs it and it's entirely legitimate. This, I have no problem with.

[norinew]

Originally posted by Cookeze
I have a question for those who are able bodied who are complaining about who is using the handicapped parking. Why are you complaining?

It's not like you can park there. They aren't taking your space.

So why is it your problem?
Well, let me see if I can dig up some analogies. I'm white, but I get upset if I see or hear about discrimination against people of other colors. I'm a heterosexual woman, happily married to a hetero man, but I'm upset that some people think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. Why should these things upset me? It's not my problem. Well, it upsets me because in all cases I can see how easily the problem could be mine; I get upset because social injustices degrade the whole society, not just the people who are actually suffering the injustices.

Originally posted by furnishesq
And can pregnant women get handicap permits? If not, they should. They deserve that courtesy.
In some places here in Maryland, especially places like Babies R Us where pregnant women are likely to "congregate" we have what's called "Stork Parking". It's like handicapped parking for pregnant women. Also, if you have some complications along with your pregnancy, I'd imagine you could get a temporary handicapped tag pretty easily; your OB/GYN would have to sign for it. Come to think of it, I probably could have gotten one with my last pregnancy; I was on partial bedrest, and couldn't be on my feet for any great lengths of time. Near the end of the pregnancy, I even used one of those motorized scooters in Sam's Club once. But I didn't bother checing into it, because I had plenty of help. Wow. I see I've given you way more info than you asked for. Sorry. :)

[Anaamika]

I'll tell you what upsets me. At my grocery store, I see lots of handicapped people who refuse to even park in the spots which are ridiculously close to the door, and pull into the fire lane instead. This not only inconveniences the cart-pushers, other shoppers, and staff, but it seriously inconveniences the other handicapped people who took the trouble to park in the right spots! Now they have to weave around these cars.

Please, use the spots they gave you. There's lots of them. I see them empty all the time.

[cookeze]

Originally posted by norinew:

Well, let me see if I can dig up some analogies. I'm white, but I get upset if I see or hear about discrimination against people of other colors. I'm a heterosexual woman, happily married to a hetero man, but I'm upset that some people think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. Why should these things upset me? It's not my problem. Well, it upsets me because in all cases I can see how easily the problem could be mine; I get upset because social injustices degrade the whole society, not just the people who are actually suffering the injustices.

Fair enough. This deserves an answer.

It's called paternalism. Or, when it's done by a woman, is it called maternalism? I dunno.

But Mommie, it's like this: You cannot come to the school playground and find the bully who called me a bad name and beat him up with your purse. It just won't do. If it's gonna be done, I'll have to do it myself, unnerstand?

By doing it for me, you are showing the whole world that you think that I can't take care of it myself. This undermines my confidence.

If I want your help I will lock eyeballs with you and say, "Hey, you---how about a little help?" Otherwise leave me alone.

[Ethilrist]

I have a question for those who are able bodied who are complaining about who is using the handicapped parking. Why are you complaining?

It's not like you can park there. They aren't taking your space.

So why is it your problem?
I see two answers.

1. Misery loves miserable company. "I'm having trouble finding a parking space, and I think everybody else should, too."

2. Some people don't like to watch people break the law. Go figure.

[furnishesq]

Originally posted by norinew:

Well, let me see if I can dig up some analogies. I'm white, but I get upset if I see or hear about discrimination against people of other colors. I'm a heterosexual woman, happily married to a hetero man, but I'm upset that some people think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. Why should these things upset me? It's not my problem. Well, it upsets me because in all cases I can see how easily the problem could be mine; I get upset because social injustices degrade the whole society, not just the people who are actually suffering the injustices.

Fair enough. This deserves an answer.

It's called paternalism. Or, when it's done by a woman, is it called maternalism? I dunno.

But Mommie, it's like this: You cannot come to the school playground and find the bully who called me a bad name and beat him up with your purse. It just won't do. If it's gonna be done, I'll have to do it myself, unnerstand?

By doing it for me, you are showing the whole world that you think that I can't take care of it myself. This undermines my confidence.

If I want your help I will lock eyeballs with you and say, "Hey, you---how about a little help?" Otherwise leave me alone.

This is all a wonderful and great theory and I agree with you if we are merely talking about parking spaces. . .

but it is more than that. . .

If some doctor enables a person, who should not be driving because they can't drive safely due to a condition by giving them a handicap parking prescription and thus becomes a hazzard on the road -- well then that IS my problem, and your problem and the entire community.

Please don't misinterpret -- there are countless handicapped drivers who drive safely --and a minority that should not. But when Dr's give those suckers out like candy -- which they do in my state -- that minority rises considerably. . .

So talking about reforming the way the ssytem works is a problem for all of us.

[norinew]

Originally posted by Cookeze
But Mommie, it's like this: You cannot come to the school playground and find the bully who called me a bad name and beat him up with your purse. It just won't do. If it's gonna be done, I'll have to do it myself, unnerstand?

By doing it for me, you are showing the whole world that you think that I can't take care of it myself. This undermines my confidence.
But I'm not beating them up for you. I tend not to even say anything. But does that mean I don't have the right to be upset about it? Call it empathy, if you will. It's easy to imagine that I might be in the position to need a handicap sticker some day, and I can imagine I'd be upset about able-bodies people taking my parking spot. So, when I see it now, I empathize with people who are currently handicapped. How does this undermine your confidence?

IMHO, any society where people only concern themselves with what affects them directly is not much of a society.

[Eva Luna]

Now if you were some kind of cripple in a wheelchair and your space is taken and you see someone come dancing out of the parked car and doing somersaults, then I could see your complaint. But that guy might be picking up Grandma. You didn't want her driving, right?



If the guy is picking up Grandma, then the whole situation is easily resolved by the presentation of Grandma and her photo ID. If Grandma is not around, the guy has no right to use her handicapped tag.

Years ago, I had a co-worker with a paraplegic husband. As much as I felt sorry for her and her husband, and their predicament, she was not driving him anywhere – he was at home with full-time nursing care while she went to work every day. And parked smack in the middle of the Loop with her husband’s decal. Drove me frickin’ bonkers. She had no right to do that, and considering that we worked in a Federal government building which also housed the Veterans Administration, she was quite possibly depriving a disabled veteran of a legitimate handicapped space on a daily basis.

[Ryle Dup]

This is all a wonderful and great theory and I agree with you if we are merely talking about parking spaces. . .

but it is more than that. . .

If some doctor enables a person, who should not be driving because they can't drive safely due to a condition by giving them a handicap parking prescription and thus becomes a hazzard on the road -- well then that IS my problem, and your problem and the entire community.

Please don't misinterpret -- there are countless handicapped drivers who drive safely --and a minority that should not. But when Dr's give those suckers out like candy -- which they do in my state -- that minority rises considerably. . .

So talking about reforming the way the ssytem works is a problem for all of us.

I think you completely don't understand how licensing works, or have zero faith in doctors. When getting a license, a person must report any conditions that may affect their driving. Also, their doctor is legally obligated to report any diseases / conditions that may affect their driving. If the person applies for a handicap placard or license plate, he is required (in california) to get a written letter from a doctor. These are two completely seperate processes. In the first, a person is required to show that they have no illnesses which can affect their driving, and in the second, they are required to show they have an illness which qualifies them for a disabled parking placard / license.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

If some doctor enables a person, who should not be driving because they can't drive safely due to a condition by giving them a handicap parking prescription and thus becomes a hazzard on the road -- well then that IS my problem, and your problem and the entire community.
If a doctor does this, that doctor is breaking the law. This is different from a doctor signing handicap tag eligibility forms to people who merit them.

Just because a person has a handicap does not mean they are automatically unsafe on the road.

Do you understand this?

QtM, MD

(who has signed lots of handicap applications and gotten patients licenses pulled in the past)

[furnishesq]

If a doctor does this, that doctor is breaking the law. This is different from a doctor signing handicap tag eligibility forms to people who merit them.

Just because a person has a handicap does not mean they are automatically unsafe on the road.

Do you understand this?

QtM, MD

(who has signed lots of handicap applications and gotten patients licenses pulled in the past)

Umm. . . did you read the part where I said "please don't misinterpret, there are countless capable handicap drivers, but there are a minority of bad ones who are enabled to continue driving when issued such a prescription. . ." It kind of makes a world of difference to acknowledge that part of my post if you are going to wax poetic about how "just because a person is handicapped. . ."

Now I have no question whatsoever that doctors are ethical when the write a prescription for handicap permits however;

1) They issue quite a bit of them.

2) Doctors are medical specialists, not driving specialists. I think the good folks at the DMV should make that call (and by the way, I think all people should be tested every five years, but that is a different thread)

[Lamar Mundane]

This is purely anecdotal, but I have noticed something else recently - the quality of the average car parked in a handicapped spot has gone way up. In the past they were largely the big cars favored by the elderly (Buick, old Caddilacs, etc)but recently I am seeing far more luxury cars. At Denver Int'l airport, I saw on Monday two Lexus', a Mercedes M class, and several other assorted luxury wheels. No vans with wheelchair ramps, no old boats. From the economy lot, even from the close in handicapped spots, it is still a quarter mile walk to the terminal.

[furnishesq]

I see two answers.

1. Misery loves miserable company. "I'm having trouble finding a parking space, and I think everybody else should, too."

2. Some people don't like to watch people break the law. Go figure.


LOL! Number 2 especially.

[Lynn Bodoni]

First, I was always told that mild exercise, such as...um...I dunno...say, walking...was a good thing.

Second, if someone is in such a condition that walking 50 feet could cause him (or her) to blow a gasket, they probably shouldn't be driving at all. What if he vapor locks on the freeway, or at a farmer's market? Actually, my doctor told me to ONLY do water exercises. She doesn't want me walking for exercise, or using a stationary bike. I asked her about this specifically. I'm allowed to use light weights on my arms as I sit, though.

And I can drive just fine, as long as I don't get too hot, and don't go very far. I can drive for about an hour or so at a time.

[tracer]

Second, in this age of the ADA (in the United States) handicap parking spaces do not necessarily equate to the "nearest" spot to the front door. I notice many times these handicapped spaces are now closest to a cut in the sidewalk so that wheelchairs can easily get on the sidewalk. Often times these spots are farther away than normal spots.
The distinguishing feature for handicapped parking spaces is neither their proximity to the building that parking is for, nor their proximity to sidewalk cuts or other accessibility-related street features.

No, the real distinguishing feature of a handicapped parking space is the presence of a cross-hatched area at least 3 or 4 feet wide next to the parking space, where no other vehicles (not even motorcycles) are allowed to park. This cross-hatched no-car's-land is there to give people with wheelchairs adequate elbow room to get out of their car and into their chair. Or to give adequate space to those special vans that have a wheelchair elevator on one side -- you can't operate that elevator without a nice 3-4 foot space cushion to the side of the van.

So, remember, folks: If you park in the handicapped spaces when you don't need to, you're not merely making it more inconvenient for wheelchair-bound folk to make their way around. You may be preventing wheelchair-bound people from being able to get out of their car at all.

[furnishesq]

The distinguishing feature for handicapped parking spaces is neither their proximity to the building that parking is for, nor their proximity to sidewalk cuts or other accessibility-related street features.

No, the real distinguishing feature of a handicapped parking space is the presence of a cross-hatched area at least 3 or 4 feet wide next to the parking space, where no other vehicles (not even motorcycles) are allowed to park. This cross-hatched no-car's-land is there to give people with wheelchairs adequate elbow room to get out of their car and into their chair. Or to give adequate space to those special vans that have a wheelchair elevator on one side -- you can't operate that elevator without a nice 3-4 foot space cushion to the side of the van.

So, remember, folks: If you park in the handicapped spaces when you don't need to, you're not merely making it more inconvenient for wheelchair-bound folk to make their way around. You may be preventing wheelchair-bound people from being able to get out of their car at all.

Now Tracer, your post is the most reasonable and practical quote of all. . . And I learned something! I think the ADA is one of the most cutting edge and monumental laws in the United States.

[Cubsfan]

Fines aren't set based upon some notion of which infractions are "worse" than others. They're set at a certain level to discourage people from doing the bad thing. They'll keep increasing the fine until people stop parking illegally in the handicapped spaces. When that happens, they will have discovered the correct fine amount!

So why not change the fine for any legal infraction to $1,000,000? This will keep everyone from breaking the law because they won't want to pay that fine right? Jay walking? You wouldn't do it if the fine was a million bucks. Double parking? You wouldn't do it if the fine was a million bucks. Fishing without a license? Million bucks.

I think alot of fines are horseshit ways for the government to suck up even more tax payer dollars.

The worst fines are the ones for speeding in a construction zone on the highways. I have no problem with higer fines if you are speeding within a certain distance of highway workers, but I think it's bullshit when there is a sign that says "Fines doubled in construction zones" And there is no "construction" happening within 10 miles of that sign. Sure there are alot of orange cones and what-not on the road, but there is not a single worker within 10 miles of the sign. BUT, if you get busted speeding here you will get hammered with fines. There is a stretch of highway that I drive to work everyday that has had cones and fines-doubled signs on it for 2 months now with no workers on the highway. This is an 8 mile stretch of road. The cones aren't even on the road, they are on the shoulder, but that fines-doubled sign is still there and people get busted for speeding on that stretch of road all the time. DOUBLE FINES!! YEAH!!

bs..

[MsRobyn]

2) Doctors are medical specialists, not driving specialists. I think the good folks at the DMV should make that call (and by the way, I think all people should be tested every five years, but that is a different thread)

Having seen DMV employees give licenses to people who couldn't pass the vision test with or without glasses, I don't have much confidence in their abilities to diagnose other medical conditions.

Robin

[CrazyCatLady]

furnishesq, I don't think you're quite understanding what a handicap parking placard is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you can drive. IT IS NOT A DRIVER'S LICENSE. It simply says that you or the person transporting you is allowed to park in a handicap space. Parking != driving.

My grandmother's drivers license expired almost 20 years ago, and she's never gone to get it renewed. When she became unable to get around without a walker and had to have a hip replacement eight years ago, she was given a temporary handicap sticker. That sticker did not give her permission to drive. It in no way, shape or form said that she was fit to drive. It simply gave my grandfather or whoever else was driving her permission to park in a handicap space.

And in case you're interested, in some states the medical conditions that are likely to get you deemed unsafe to drive aren't the ones that will get you a handicap sticker. Epilepsy will get your license pulled, but it won't get you handicap sticker. Congestive heart failure might get you a handicap sticker, but it won't get your license pulled, at least not in Kentucky. That's because walking and driving are two very different things, with very different physical requirements.

[AuGratin]

As was so well pointed out by CrazyCatLady, permission to park in no way equals permission to drive . . .

Y'know, it was my dread of confronting Self-Appointed Parking Enforcers that made me so hesitant to park in a handicapped space even when my husband, the fully-qualified reason for our placard, was in the car. I used to joke with him, kiddingly asking him to limp a little, because when he first got it he didn't appear to need it, at least not with a quick glance.

I've gotten over my worries about SAPEs, but the sad and terrible thing about that is that's it's due in part to his worsening condition (curse you MD!), which has forced him on oxygen 24/7 and to use a walker. I regret every moment I spent worried about the reactions of strangers that wasn't spent worried about him. And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to call and tell him that I love him.

[BiblioCat]

Years ago, I had a co-worker with a paraplegic husband. As much as I felt sorry for her and her husband, and their predicament, she was not driving him anywhere – he was at home with full-time nursing care while she went to work every day. And parked smack in the middle of the Loop with her husband’s decal. Drove me frickin’ bonkers. She had no right to do that, and considering that we worked in a Federal government building which also housed the Veterans Administration, she was quite possibly depriving a disabled veteran of a legitimate handicapped space on a daily basis.
I used to work with a woman just like this - her husband was disabled (he'd had both legs amputated at the knee due to complications from diabetes) and was at home all day. They only had one car, which had handicapped plates, of course, and she'd come to work and park in the handicapped spot. A fellow co-worker pointed it out to the office manager, who tried politely to tell her she was not allowed to park there. She stubbornly insisted she was allowed to, saying as long as she had the plates, she was allowed to park wherever she pleased. It didn't matter if her husband was with her or not, to her way of thinking. It caused quite a bit of contention around the office for several weeks.
It ended up with the office mananger and the boss getting the building manager involved, who told her under no circumstances was she to park there anymore, and if she did, he'd have her car towed. She ended up quitting, threatening a lawsuit, but it never materialized.

[furnishesq]

furnishesq, I don't think you're quite understanding what a handicap parking placard is. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you can drive. IT IS NOT A DRIVER'S LICENSE. It simply says that you or the person transporting you is allowed to park in a handicap space. Parking != driving.

My grandmother's drivers license expired almost 20 years ago, and she's never gone to get it renewed. When she became unable to get around without a walker and had to have a hip replacement eight years ago, she was given a temporary handicap sticker. That sticker did not give her permission to drive. It in no way, shape or form said that she was fit to drive. It simply gave my grandfather or whoever else was driving her permission to park in a handicap space.

And in case you're interested, in some states the medical conditions that are likely to get you deemed unsafe to drive aren't the ones that will get you a handicap sticker. Epilepsy will get your license pulled, but it won't get you handicap sticker. Congestive heart failure might get you a handicap sticker, but it won't get your license pulled, at least not in Kentucky. That's because walking and driving are two very different things, with very different physical requirements.


Of course I know it is not a license. Of course I know it is a parking permit. Once again, I will try to make my point. I admit it is subtle -- but I believe valid.

Vast majority of those with handicapp plates are legitimate. However, I firmly believe that some are not capable of driving any longer. I believe that giving those people permits may ENABLE them to continue driving when they should give up the car keys.

Am I advocating to end the handicap parking system? NO WAY.

I simply believe there should be stricter controls on how it is used and issued.

[vetbridge]

I am so freaking happy that I do not need to use a handicapped spot, that I do not care who does use them. Hell, I'll park in the lot next door and walk over and I'll be fine. :)

[CrazyCatLady]

However, I firmly believe that some are not capable of driving any longer. I believe that giving those people permits may ENABLE them to continue driving when they should give up the car keys.

Color me confused. How does having a closer parking space affect whether you drive or not? And are you talking about people who are physcially incapable of driving, or people who shouldn't be driving? If someone is physically incapable of driving, well, they're not going to drive for obvious reasons. If you're talking about someone who really shouldn't be driving any longer but still does, well, they're going to keep driving no matter where you make them park.

I think perhaps what you really want is stricter controls over licensing people with health conditions, which has nothing whatsoever to do with handicap parking.

[C K Dexter Haven]

[personal anecdote]: I'm on the receiving end of this. My mother is 93 and legally blind, and needs a walker to walk. She certainly doesn't drive -- she very sensibly gave up driving when she hit 70 -- but I drive her to doctor's appointments, shopping, etc. She got a handicapped placard, so that when I drive her, I can park as close as possible. Sometimes, I leave the car parked at the door, take her into the doctor's office waiting room, and then go back and park the car in a handicapped spot... because when she comes OUT of the doctor's office, I want her to have as short a walk as possible, and not have to stand on the curb while I go to the other end of the lot to drive the car around.

I'm sure that people like the OP see me park in a handicap spot and come away thinking that I'm an abuser of the right.

Don't jump to conclusions.

[yosemite]

Don't jump to conclusions.I have a similar antecdote as well. C K Dexter Haven.

My sister has one leg, walks unsteadily with a cane and is legally blind. She can't drive.

Sometimes I'll drop her off in front of the lobby of wherever (i.e., a doctor's office) and then park the car in a handicapped space. This gives her more time to walk to the office and not be late. I'm sure people have jumped to conclusions with us as well when they see me park.

If you aren't paying attention, my sister looks able-bodied enough. She can walk on both legs. One leg is crooked and has problems, and the other one—well, it isn't there, but she's got a prosthetic so no one can tell that. She often says that if anyone gives her a hard time about using a handicapped parking space, she'll pull off her leg and show them why she's qualified. (And she would, too. ;))

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Of course I know it is not a license. Of course I know it is a parking permit. Once again, I will try to make my point. I admit it is subtle -- but I believe valid.
Then give us some specific evidence that your suble point is valid. I am hopeful that with such evidence I will then be able to grasp this point.

[furnishesq]

Then give us some specific evidence that your suble point is valid. I am hopeful that with such evidence I will then be able to grasp this point.


My hunch is you can't see my point due to your experience as a doctor. Doctors can do no wrong. Before you get too offended -- I admit I am this way with trial lawyers -- as I one myself! My back gets up everytime I hear a "tort reform" argument. ;)

Your point is valid -- I will post stats shortly. I have read them -- I should have done this sooner.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

My hunch is you can't see my point due to your experience as a doctor. Doctors can do no wrong.
And what is your hunch about why other contributors to this thread also cannot seem to see your point?

[filmyak]

In some places here in Maryland, especially places like Babies R Us where pregnant women are likely to "congregate" we have what's called "Stork Parking". It's like handicapped parking for pregnant women.

I saw a single guy park in one of those once. Was gonna confront him, but I figured some pregnancies aren't visible to the naked eye. :D

[furnishesq]

And what is your hunch about why other contributors to this thread also cannot seem to see your point?

It seems 50-50 to me Qadgop. And some have said my OP is very reasonable. You are being a bit disingenious, no? If everyone agreed with me (which I never thought they would) this post wouldn't be in the debate column.

I have been away for a week, I will post stats soon.

An apple a day keeps Qadgop away. . .

[Loach]

cops could check the ID of the person using the decal against a master list of decal holders, enforcement would be much easier. The darn decals have serial numbers on them; how difficult could it be?

I know other things have been the focus here but I felt I sould address this. Believe me that is done. HC parking is a pet peeve of a lot of officers. As a practical matter it can't be done very often. If I drive by and see someone not obviously handicapped I will ask for thier ID. Those with legit reasons are more than happy to comply because they are glad to see someone enforcing the law. Other than that it is difficult. Do you think that cops should stake out parking lots just in case someone comes out who is not limping? Like I said its not very practical.

[clayton_e]

A friend of mine (19 years old, totally healthy) had his aunt's old car or something and he was paying her insurance and other expenses just so that he could park in the handicap parking. That was abusing the system but no authority ever said a thing about it to him.