Should POLAND Give Back East Prussia To Germany?

[ralph124c]

Everybody talks about the injustices visited upon the Palestinians..but nobody seems to talk about what happened to the german inhabitants of what used to be Prussia and East Prussia! The parts of what are now western Poland were german for hundreds of years! The cities of Danzig, Steetin, Konigsberg, etc. were never Polish until the end of WWII. Basically, hundreds of thousands of people were forced to leave their home , and had to move to west Germany. Now, more than 58 years later, isn't it time to remove this injustice?
I have a german-American friend,,his parents were refugees from Danzig, and they still have the deed to their farm outside the city. Is there any chance that Poland will give up its claim to these ares?

[Rune]

Is there any chance that Poland will give up its claim to these ares?Not a chance. And I think the German refugees should be counted in the millions instead of the hundred thousands. Also Soviet took at big swath of Polish territory.

[jjimm]

The ethnic cleansing of Germanic peoples from large parts of Eastern Europe post WWII was indeed shameful, and it's right that it should be brought up, because it is often overlooked.

However, your analogy breaks down because East Prussia et al were formally annexed by international treaties, rather than being ruled as an 'interim' occupation. Clearly Palestinian right of return is one of many major sticking points to a resolution of the Israel/Palestine problem, and I think the Palestinian leadership, such as it is, should drop it; however, they're unlikely to while they're aiming for an unrealistic all-or-nothing goal, and while new Israeli settlements continue to be built in the OTs.

[Sevastopol]

I'm sure Poland would be glad to offer the right of return to dispossessed Germans.

Actually, EU membership...

[Alessan]

However, your analogy breaks down because East Prussia et al were formally annexed by international treaties, rather than being ruled as an 'interim' occupation. .

East Prussia was not annexed by international treaties, it was annexed by Soviet tanks. The fact that the parties involved were forced to sign a piece of paper after the fact doesn't make it less an act of raw force. It's the kind of thing you can get away with when you have the largest army on the planet. The fact that you're doing it to people who should feel grateful you hadn't just shot them all also helps.

[Giles]

I'm sure Poland would be glad to offer the right of return to dispossessed Germans.

Actually, EU membership...
Doesn't Poland now belong to the EU, so that fomer East Prussians can now return to East Prussia if they wish? (Or at least to the Polish part of East Prussia, since the Russian part of East Prussia is still outside the EU).

[smiling bandit]

Like a lot of things, it was done and it stayed done. After the War, the eastern Europeans (with fair reasons) could not stand to live next to the Germans, who, if not usually diehard supporters of Hitler, had not spoken out strongly against him and often benefitted materially from the conquests. Whether this was fair or not is irrelevant. It happened and will not change. The Poles lost enough from the Germans that there wil be no German "right-of-return".

So why are you even asking this question?

[Sevastopol]

Doesn't Poland now belong to the EU, so that fomer East Prussians can now return to East Prussia if they wish? (Or at least to the Polish part of East Prussia, since the Russian part of East Prussia is still outside the EU).

Yes, I thought so too and was indicating as much. Poland has a preliminary/interim EU membership at the moment and I cannot swear to the detail of the free movement of persons there.

In fairness, I think it unlikely that Poland would recognise obsolete title deeds to Gdansk/Danzig. But land there is as cheap as stinking mackrel if you are a Nostalgic German with the ready Euros.

[JRDelirious]

Sure, as soon as Belarus gives back East Poland and Ukraine gives Ruthenia back to Slovakia and... well, you see how practical it would be.

Sometimes you just have to say yep, history happened, ain't that something, and move on.


(BTW: Königsberg is in the Russian bit of East Prussia, that was left discontiguous after the collapse of the USSR)

[Mops]

Yes, I thought so too and was indicating as much. Poland has a preliminary/interim EU membership at the moment and I cannot swear to the detail of the free movement of persons there.


Poland has in fact regular membership, with a few opt-outs that will eventually expire:
- land cannot be owned by foreigners yet (on demand by Poland), but land can be owned by foreign-owned Polish corporations
- Poles do not have a right to work everywhere in the EU yet (on demand by mainly Germany), but Polish companies can contract for work everywhere in the EU

In fairness, I think it unlikely that Poland would recognise obsolete title deeds to Gdansk/Danzig. But land there is as cheap as stinking mackrel if you are a Nostalgic German with the ready Euros.

Germans cannot buy land yet (see above), and when they will be eventually allowed prices will probably have moved much toward equalization with western EU levels.

The question of restitution claims seems to be an emotive one in Poland today - the kind of topic nationalistic parties can mobilize their base with. It's grown less and less emotive in German society as the people who were deported personally are dying out. Lately the German government has gone on record that it opposes these restitution claims (of Germans, to their former property) - this question has not been resolved yet as such a policy being formally adopted would in justice mean that the German state would be obliged to make restitution payments instead. Refugees were compensated for part of the value in the 1950s/1960s by the German state; perhaps an additional payment would bring the refugee lobby in line. I expect an agreement some time in the next few years that will formally secure indemnity for the Poles. Polish public opinion does not seem to be ready to acknowledge expelling and expropriating people on the basis of their ethnicity as an injustice, perhaps after the pressure of theoretical legal claims is off Poles will be in a position to see this dispassionately.

[Milford Cubicle]

I think it's safe to say that Europe has had about enough of fighting over borders by now. As such, it's highly unlikely that the current borders in Europe will be changing anytime soon... about as likely as nonpolar becoming a moderator, in fact.

[Tamerlane]

The cities of Danzig, Steetin, Konigsberg, etc. were never Polish until the end of WWII.


Better to amend this to "haven't been Polish since the 1700's." West Prussia, so-called 'Royal Prussia", was a part of the Polish crown from 1466-1772 ( this includes Danzig ). East Prussia, 'Ducal Prussia', was subject to the Polish crown from 1525-1660. Pomerania, the eastern section of which was also later part of Royal and then West Prussia ( with cities like Stettin ) had been under Polish control from as early as the 11th century, though said control was intermittent.

Ethnically West Prussia had a majority Polish population, but a very large urban and coastal concentrated German minority. East Prussia was majority German, with Polish (again in the south ) and Lithuanian ( in the far east ) minorities.

Memel ( initially a free port of overwhelmingly German population, later incorporated into Lithuania and remaned Klaipeda ) and strip of East Prussia went to Lithuania after WW I. Danzig was a free port after WW I and much of West Prussia became the 'Polish Corridor" seperating East and West Prussia. Al

- Tamerlane

[nonpolar]

I think it's safe to say that Europe has had about enough of fighting over borders by now. As such, it's highly unlikely that the current borders in Europe will be changing anytime soon... about as likely as nonpolar becoming a moderator, in fact.

There is always hope ;)

When Poles and Germans who suffered in WW2 are long gone ,European Union will change whole concept of borders and nationalities.No one will fight over pieces of land anymore.
But if not then we are all in deep sh** again.
How about USA giving back California ,Texas back to Mexicans?

[ITR champion]

Also East Prussia does not have any religious signifigance to any of the parties involved, unlike Palestine.

[John Mace]

Should POLAND Give Back East Prussia To Germany?

Is the German government asking for it?

[BrainGlutton]

Better to amend this to "haven't been Polish since the 1700's." West Prussia, so-called 'Royal Prussia", was a part of the Polish crown from 1466-1772 ( this includes Danzig ). East Prussia, 'Ducal Prussia', was subject to the Polish crown from 1525-1660. Pomerania, the eastern section of which was also later part of Royal and then West Prussia ( with cities like Stettin ) had been under Polish control from as early as the 11th century, though said control was intermittent.

Ethnically West Prussia had a majority Polish population, but a very large urban and coastal concentrated German minority. East Prussia was majority German, with Polish (again in the south ) and Lithuanian ( in the far east ) minorities.

Memel ( initially a free port of overwhelmingly German population, later incorporated into Lithuania and remaned Klaipeda ) and strip of East Prussia went to Lithuania after WW I. Danzig was a free port after WW I and much of West Prussia became the 'Polish Corridor" seperating East and West Prussia. Al

- Tamerlane

Better to amend this still further: The city of Konisgberg, at least, originally was founded as a German colony -- well, a German-Czech colony. From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad):

Königsberg ("king's Mountain") was founded in 1255 by the Bohemian King Ottokar II, who came to help Teutonic Knights during their conquest of Prussia disguised as the Christianization effort called the Northern Crusades. This event started the German colonisation of the area, and the small remaining local Baltic Prussians eventually became germanized. However, the Baltic-Prussian language did not become extinct until 18th century.

Königsberg was the capital of Sambia, one of the four dioceses into which Prussia had been divided in 1243 by papal legate William of Modena. Saint Adalbert of Prague became the main patron saint of the Königsberger Dom (cathedral). Königsberg became a member of the Hanse and an important port for Prussia, Province of Prussia and Lithuania.

As a result of the Thirteen Years' War between the Order and the Polish Crown, the Teutonic Order state was reduced by the 1466 Second Treaty of Thorn to the area of later Ducal Prussia, under the overlordship of the Polish crown.

After WWII, when Stalin's armies overran Eastern Europe, Stalin not only annexed Konigsberg to the Soviet Union, he annexed it to the Russian Federation -- rather than to Lithuania or to Poland, either of which would have seemed more logical. I don't know why -- perhaps he wanted a Baltic port under firm Russian control. Anyway, Konigsberg was renamed Kaliningrad, and the city and surrounding countryside -- the northern third of what was East Prussia -- was emptied of Germans and colonized with Russians and now forms a discontinuous Russian enclave, separated from Russia by the territory of Latvia and Lithuania. Since the USSR broke up, there has been some tension between Russia and the Baltic states over Russian's right of access across their territory to get from Kaliningrad to the main body of Russian territory. Stupid Stalin.

By the way, there is an organization of German refugees from East Prussia -- the Landsmannschaft Ostpreußen or Territorial Association of East Prussia -- which demands the return of East Prussia to Germany. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsmannschaft_Ostpreussen)

[Grey]

Which Germany back in the 13th century? As the link points out it was a Bohemian king’s initiative. A Brandenburg colony would have more weight, not that that would mean a lot .

[clairobscur]

Is the German government asking for it?


Some time after the unification (and the final treaty with the occupation powers), the German governement officially renounced to any claim to the polish territories beyond the Oder-Neisse line.


This issue and the issue of possible reparations are separate.

[Tamerlane]

Better to amend this still further: The city of Konisgberg, at least, originally was founded as a German colony -- well, a German-Czech colony.


So was Memel and many other cities/towns in the region. We're probably just having a semantics issue.

By saying a region was Polish, you could be saying either that it was ethnically Polish or it was under the political control of Poland. Cities like Kongisberg and Memel probably never had significant numbers of ethnic Pole residents - but they were under the political authority of Poland for long periods of time. Cities like Stettin and Danzig started out as Slavic settlements and were gradually Germanized, until they too were largely German in ethnicity.

Large-scaler German immigration, usually encouraged by non-German rulers, was quite common in eastern Europe with many towns in places like Bohemia and Hungary ( particularly then Hungarian Transylvania ) owing their origin to German settlers - for example the small Roumanian city of Cluj started as Klausenburg. My father is 100% Serbian, but his mother's maiden name was Foster, which in this context almost certainly has German roots. In the pre-modern era the concept of the national state was very much theexception to the rule. Especially as even languages like German and French contained very significant regional/cultural dialects.

- Tamerlane

[John Mace]

Some time after the unification (and the final treaty with the occupation powers), the German governement officially renounced to any claim to the polish territories beyond the Oder-Neisse line.


This issue and the issue of possible reparations are separate.

Thanks for the clarification, but mine was more in the line of rhetorical question.

Fortunately, as many posters have noted, most Europeans seem to be able to say "history is history, bad things were done by both sides, lets get on with our lives and not fight any more wars over borders."

If we revived every border dispute throughout history, we'd turn the entire world into a giant "Middle East". No thanks.

[nonpolar]

Ordinary Germans or Poles don't really care about returning any land back to originnal owners.
But someone obviously is stirring old nationalistic feelings in both countries,who is it?
It is USA,why? As Europe is uniting and year by year gets stronger America see in Unified Europe huge threat both economically and millitairly.
So, how America can disrupt this process? answer is very simple as I said before stirr old nationalistic feelings and VOILA you can have second Yugoslavia if it goes as planned ,and from what I see, it is going in that direction.
If that plan is fullfylld ,forget about Unified Europe for another 100 years.

So to answer OP ,young people and new generation of Germans and Poles want to live side by side in peace ,only someone with evil agenda tries to disrupt process of European Unification.
Sorry if I went off the main topic ,but I just want to shed some more light on E.European affairs.

[Ryan_Liam]

So, how America can disrupt this process? answer is very simple as I said before stirr old nationalistic feelings and VOILA you can have second Yugoslavia if it goes as planned ,and from what I see, it is going in that direction.

Are you nuts? Germany won't get East Prussia back, nor has it made stong demands for it to be returned, did you happen to miss out on your history lesson of World War Two?

Quit blaming America for all your and the worlds Ills, people can think on their own you know, without American support.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

What about Silesia? Won't anyone speak for po' Silesia? :p

BTW, aren't Prussians ethnically Slavic rather than German?

I don't think the German government is actively asking for Prussia, but when I visited Germany a few years back I noticed a two small monuments in different cities that spoke of the 'lost provinces'. Prussia, Silesia, etc. ONe gets the impression that they would like to have it back, but Germans asking for territory puts a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

[JRDelirious]

BTW, aren't Prussians ethnically Slavic rather than German? "weren't" would be a better term for the question. It seems the original Prussians, a Baltic people, got assimilated into the cultures of their various conquerors.

[BrainGlutton]

Ordinary Germans or Poles don't really care about returning any land back to originnal owners.
But someone obviously is stirring old nationalistic feelings in both countries,who is it?
It is USA,why? As Europe is uniting and year by year gets stronger America see in Unified Europe huge threat both economically and millitairly.
So, how America can disrupt this process? answer is very simple as I said before stirr old nationalistic feelings and VOILA you can have second Yugoslavia if it goes as planned ,and from what I see, it is going in that direction.
If that plan is fullfylld ,forget about Unified Europe for another 100 years.

So to answer OP ,young people and new generation of Germans and Poles want to live side by side in peace ,only someone with evil agenda tries to disrupt process of European Unification.
Sorry if I went off the main topic ,but I just want to shed some more light on E.European affairs.

nonpolar, do you have any cite, or any proof of any kind, to support the proposition that the U.S. is acting to stir up the issue of East Prussia's status? Or doing anything at all to interfere in the process of European unification?

So far as I know, the only thing Bush has done with respect to EU affairs is to urge the EU to admit Turkey -- which would advance the process of European unification.

[ralph124c]

The nation-states of Europe will all disappear, and be replaced by the old Holy Roman Empire. No more squabbles about who owns Danzig, or whatnot.Are the old ethinc hatreds dead?

[seldompk3]

Is the German government asking for it?

The German Government understands that asking for the lost territories would end up opening an old dispute, and as Mr. Miskatonic said, people would feel unconfortable if Germany asked for their territories (logically, due to their past experiences). As in this century the German government has became a little bit more civilized, they'd rather live peacefully amongst their neightbors instead of invading and slaughtering them, with the obvious consequence of being hated.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Prussian Zombies!

[Der Trihs]

Prussian Zombies!Well, sure. Why else do you think those spiked helmets were popular in the region?

"Braiiiinnn-OW!"

"Damned zombie. Pry it off for me, would you Hans?"

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Ideally, as a Germanophile, yes. I'd prefer if Germany looked like this (see the Germany in 1910 map): http://decadesofdarkness.alternatehistory.com/

[Farmer Jane]

A branch of my mom's family is from Mecklenburg.

Can I get a piece of this? I hear they have universal health care in those parts.

[medicated]

Ideally, as a Germanophile, yes. I'd prefer if Germany looked like this (see the Germany in 1910 map): http://decadesofdarkness.alternatehistory.com/

German borders weren't too far off from that in 1942. Few outside of Germany were terribly happy with the situation.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

German borders weren't too far off from that in 1942. Few outside of Germany were terribly happy with the situation.

Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans.

[tomndebb]

As already noted in jocular fashion, this thread is a zombie from 2004.

As long as it does not get hostile, (and the zombie jokes die down), I will leave it open.

[ /Moderating ]

[Dissonance]

Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans.How odd, there was a German with a funny looking mustache who thought Germany was entitled to those same places.

Regarding Danzig and the plight of dispossessed East Prussians: I'm all in favor of the undoing of this shameful ethnic cleansing. All I'd ask that they do first is undo the ethnic cleansing they visited upon Poland from 1939-45. The problem there is zombies again: the Nazis murdered them.

[medicated]

Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans.

That's a very dangerous viewpoint. Is the Netherlands entitled to half of Belgium and a small part of France in order to unite the Dutch peoples? Or is Belgium entitled to the Netherlands for that same reason? Is Hungary entitled to much of Romania and chunks of Slovakia and Serbia? For that matter, shall Serbia gain much of Bosnia (because we know that is so popular there)? Shall Spain have Portugal (hey, they are only as distinct as the two governments decide they are)? Shall Russia annex the eastern half of Ukraine? Or, while we're playing that game, is Britain entitled to huge parts of North America, Australia, South Africa, etc? What the hell are the criteria you use to decide which countries get to annex others?

What makes the 'German people' distinct from, say, the Dutch or the Danes? Why are the Austrians included, but not (most of) the Swiss? What about Liechtenstein? Are they German?

I don't mean to be a dick, but the words 'entitled to' strike me as both bizarre and disturbing. I believe that you have not thought through the implications of your words.

[JRDelirious]

Really... PanGermanism, PanArabism, PanSlavism, you name it... haven't exactly led the Peoples to new dawns of happiness have they?


Saying a nation-state is "entitled" to every square yard of land that their predecessor states ever occupied in the past, or that any nation-state is "entitled" to any land where people of a particular defined ethnocultural grouping live at a given time, is a very risky proposition. Ask the Serbians how well that went.

[foolsguinea]

Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans.No.

German is a language, not a race. The German language once appeared rather far to the east, but admixed among peoples who were not German. And not all who speak German would want to live under Berlin.

[Darth Ayebaw]

No. I think new annexation/permanent occupation/ect are wrong, but currently land shouldn't be given up. The thing is, if you decide country X should have borders more matching it's previous ones, then what happens when countries Y and Z also start demanding that? How far back do you go? Go back far enough and you'll be kicking out people who were born and raised on 'their' land in order to give to to someone who has spend 80% of their life elsewhere. Go even farther and the maps really start looking strange.

Already there are issues in Europe regarding a very significant percentage of Serbs supporting the ideology of "Greater Serbia".

Also not to go too off topic but how has Poland's status in the EU changed since earlier debate?

[BrainGlutton]

Why does the capital of East Prussia, Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad) (otherwise most famous as the hometown of Immanuel Kant), belong to Russia now?! So that it forms a Russian exclave with Lithuania on one side and Poland on the other. Stalin's call, post-WWII, I suppose. But Stalin was no Russian himself (he was a Georgian). Why didn't he give the city to Poland or Lithuania? It would have made more sense, and the city would have remained under Soviet control in any case.

[Polycarp]

Why does the capital of East Prussia, Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad) (otherwise most famous as the hometown of Immanuel Kant), belong to Russia now?! So that it forms a Russian exclave with Lithuania on one side and Poland on the other. Stalin's call, post-WWII, I suppose. But Stalin was no Russian himself (he was a Georgian). Why didn't he give the city to Poland or Lithuania? It would have made more sense, and the city would have remained under Soviet control in any case.



From the time of Peter the Great, one of Russia's primary goals in expansion has been acquisition of a warm water port with access to the open ocean. They've never quite gotten one. ?But K-town is accessible without ice more of the year than St. Petersburg, and also is much harder to blockade away from the open ocean than the latter, which can be blockaded by a handful of Finns or ?Swedes with a grudge (an historically there have been many).

[Martin Hyde]

Because Stalin was in everything but name a Russian Tsar and a Russian imperialist.

Stalin was not ethnically Russian. However, when Lenin died and Stalin took control the Soviet Union essentially became de facto a resurrection of the Russian Empire.

Lenin had genuine interest and belief in the whole "ideological spread of communism" and thought the world would eventually become 100% communist and the concept of "states" would disappear.

All evidence suggests that while Stalin was happy when ideologically pro-communist revolutions happened around the world, Stalin was primarily focused with the interests of Russia and not particularly concerned with anything else. Stalin openly disliked other communist leaders who were not in personal fief to him.

Stalin's behavior clearly shows he viewed himself as essentially a Russian Emperor, and his actions were about maximizing the power of Russia, not of the rest of the Soviet Union and not of the "world communist movement." During WWII Stalin supported the Kuomintang in China, he had peaceful relations with them after the war was over and he instructed Mao to make peace with the Kuomintang. He did this because he felt Chiang Kai-Shek's China was a better bulwark against the Japanese. Mao basically ignored Stalin, and Sino-Soviet relations were strained from that point forward. Stalin had no use for communist leaders that didn't accept Stalin's authority.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

How odd, there was a German with a funny looking mustache who thought Germany was entitled to those same places.


Godwin's law. The mustache-guy also supported building autobahns.

That's a very dangerous viewpoint. Is the Netherlands entitled to half of Belgium and a small part of France in order to unite the Dutch peoples? Or is Belgium entitled to the Netherlands for that same reason? Is Hungary entitled to much of Romania and chunks of Slovakia and Serbia? For that matter, shall Serbia gain much of Bosnia (because we know that is so popular there)? Shall Spain have Portugal (hey, they are only as distinct as the two governments decide they are)? Shall Russia annex the eastern half of Ukraine? Or, while we're playing that game, is Britain entitled to huge parts of North America, Australia, South Africa, etc? What the hell are the criteria you use to decide which countries get to annex others?

What makes the 'German people' distinct from, say, the Dutch or the Danes? Why are the Austrians included, but not (most of) the Swiss? What about Liechtenstein? Are they German?

I don't mean to be a dick, but the words 'entitled to' strike me as both bizarre and disturbing. I believe that you have not thought through the implications of your words.

Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria wanted reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I.

[Sitnam]

Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria wanted reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I.
Not in this case however. After the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire the Germans living in Austria wanted to join Germany. Fear of an enlarged Germany compelled the victors to put a clause forbidding it in the Treaty of Versailles.

While it is true ethnic regions combined it was also the case that massive migrations occured after WWI when the former wasn't possible.

[Captain Amazing]

From the time of Peter the Great, one of Russia's primary goals in expansion has been acquisition of a warm water port with access to the open ocean. They've never quite gotten one.

Vladivostok.

[colonial]

Vladivostok.
Valdivostok freezes in the winter.

Despite being near the northernmost extreme of the country,
the European Russian port of Murmansk is ice-free year-round
because of its location near the end of the Gulf Stream.

[seldompk3]

No. I think new annexation/permanent occupation/ect are wrong, but currently land shouldn't be given up. The thing is, if you decide country X should have borders more matching it's previous ones, then what happens when countries Y and Z also start demanding that? How far back do you go? Go back far enough and you'll be kicking out people who were born and raised on 'their' land in order to give to to someone who has spend 80% of their life elsewhere. Go even farther and the maps really start looking strange.


How does Germany recover their lands then? invasions. And so history is repeated thanks to that way of thinking.

[wevets]

Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans.

Dear God! This post self-godwinizes!

[New Deal Democrat]

I use the loss of German territory after the two world wars in order to justify Israeli expansion during the wars of 1948 and 1967. A price should be paid for starting and losing a war of aggression. The wars of 1948 and 1967 were intentionally wars of annihilation. The Arabs wanted to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews there.

The Palestinians supported our enemies during the Second World War, the Cold War, and the War in the Guld. This is how they responded to 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all.

[seldompk3]

The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all.

Actually they do; americans simply ignore the existance of this video.

[Sitnam]

The Palestinians supported our enemies during the Second World War, the Cold War, and the War in the Guld. This is how they responded to 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all.
Pro Tip: Linking to Fox News hyperbole is very damaging to your credibility around here.

I thought you could use the advice.

[New Deal Democrat]

Pro Tip: Linking to Fox News hyperbole is very damaging to your credibility around here.

I thought you could use the advice.

Take this, then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0&feature=related

There is no question that large numbers of Palestinians celebrated 9/11.

[Sitnam]

Take this, then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0&feature=related

There is no question that large numbers of Palestinians celebrated 9/11.
Wow, you found another cite with the exact same group of morons on the exact same sidewalk.

Your point is taken though, I withdraw my criticism and your 40 second clip of douchebags stands as concrete condemnation of an entire people.

I'm an American so I hope someone doesn't now link to a COPS episode.

[Darth Ayebaw]

How does Germany recover their lands then? invasions. And so history is repeated thanks to that way of thinking.

I said Germany doesn't recover their lands, so there's no issue with that.

[medicated]

Godwin's law. The mustache-guy also supported building autobahns.



Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria wanted reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I.

Yes, a lot of them did. That sure worked out well for them.

Also worth noting: though it's commonly said that the post WWI borders were based on ethnicity, that is simply absurd on its face. Yet another case of 'common wisdom' that turns out to be complete crap once one actually takes a look at it. The results had a lot more to do with realpolitik than any reflection of ethnic realities, whatever that might mean.

Of course, Yugoslavia (an ethnically homogenous nation-state) has held together through thick and thin ever since the war. So I could be wrong about this.