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jmeyers
09-23-2004, 05:50 PM
Lignostone is a composite material of laminated wood and synthetic epoxy. I believe it is manufactured in the Netherlands. There has been a rumor going around among fundamentalist Christians that Russia has been using this stuff to build tanks, trucks, artillery, etc. This rumor has been going around for at least 30 years. This would make it possible for the fulfillment of a prophecy in Ezekiel 39:9 that says (according to these Christians) that after Armageddon, Israel will burn Russian weapons for fuel for seven years. Has anyone any concrete info on Russian use of Lignostone?

W. Fikere Tomba
09-23-2004, 06:14 PM
Ezekiel 39 doesn't say anything about Russia, unless maybe some people think Russia is Magog or something. And Armageddon is not mentioned until Revelation. But Ezekiel does talk about burning weapons, and implies that they're being used for fuel:

Eze 39:9

And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Eze 39:10

So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down [any] out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Frankly, I find it hard to imagine the Russians using bows, arrows, handstaves, or spears of any material these days.

Ike Witt
09-23-2004, 06:33 PM
Frankly, I find it hard to imagine the Russians using bows, arrows, handstaves, or spears of any material these days.

Are you kidding? The Soviet era Russia never decomissioned anything AFAIK. They supposedly had T-34 tanks in storage well into the 1960's or 70's. They may still have a few pointy sticks squirrled away somewhere.

Granted I may be remembering this from a Tom Clancy book.

Ficer67
09-24-2004, 04:08 AM
I envisioned the war of armageddon to be so long and so fierce that we blow ourselves back to the stone-age. We actually shoot up all the factories that we use to produce weapons, leaving each soldier with only the means to produce bows and arrows, swords and shields.

Was it Einstein or Oppenhiemer who said that he did not know what WWIII would be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Ranchoth
09-24-2004, 04:58 AM
Frankly, I'd guess that if an apocalyptic world war had waged so long that the industrial infrastructure to create metal weapons had been destroyed, there wouldn't be a whole hell of a lot of trees left to harvest, either. (To say nothing of people to use the weapons.)


Ranchoth
(Well, at least it'd still be a step above beating people to death with your own severed limbs. That'd just be sad.)

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 05:18 AM
Was it Einstein or Oppenhiemer who said that he did not know what WWIII would be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

I've always heard it was Einstein. This (http://www.csmngt.com/einstein.htm) page supports that, and Snopes has no reference for the quote as dubious.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 05:21 AM
Also, welcome to the boards, W. Fikere Tomba. You're starting off an the right foot. :)

EvilGhandi
09-24-2004, 05:47 AM
As far as I know, Tanks artillery guns etc are made of steel. Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminium, and stuff.

Tacos are made of tortillas,beef, tomatos, lettuce and cheese.

Atoms are made of protons, electrons and bon bons.

While it against GQ rules to call a poster an idiot, I think it is still safe to call this an idiotic question.

EvilGhandi
09-24-2004, 06:02 AM
Sorry I forgot, we were in GQ.

I will now present evidence that the OP is, in fact Idiotic.

Assumes that there is a substance made of plywood and resin that can be made into a tank.

Assumes that the Netherlands is a major arms supplier to Russia.

Insinuates that Ikea may well be the greatest threat the world has ever known.

Aw hell with it im going to bed.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 08:05 AM
Sorry I forgot, we were in GQ.

I will now present evidence that the OP is, in fact Idiotic.Come one, there's no need for name-calling.

Assumes that there is a substance made of plywood and resin that can be made into a tank. Actually, you can build tanks out of plywood, but they probably would be less bullet-resistant than steel tanks. And since some composite materials are used to stop bullets (see kevlar vests), it's not unimaginable that the OP might think they could be used for some kind of armour plating.Assumes that the Netherlands is a major arms supplier to Russia.No, not really. Canada is not a major arms supplier to anyone these days, but nickel mined at Sudbury and Thompson is used by many countries in the fabrication of many weapons, and things like teapots and coins. Selling raw materials to Russia doesn't make the Netherlands arms suppliers, does it?

Insinuates that Ikea may well be the greatest threat the world has ever known. Not at all. Ikea is from Sweden, and they don't sell weapons, though some of their products use wood derivatives.

As well:Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminium, and stuff

And stuff like plywood (http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/plywood.htm). Wood is very strong (for its weight), very available in some parts of the world, and very easily machined into various shapes. Even modern airplanes use plywood sometimes; I have personally toured an aircraft (http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/K100.htm) factory where advanced composites were used for the airframe, but plywood for the propellor. I don't think Magnesium features heavily in aircraft construction, because of its flammability. Aluminum is a big player though.

None of this has any bearing on whether the Bible prophesizes the Russian army, though. That topic was addressed pretty well above, though it's still open whether the Russians are using Lignostone for anything.


Reading the website of the producer (www.lignostone.com) -- and admittedly my Dutch isn't very good yet -- it looks like it can be used for specialised tool and machinery applications. They appear to claim it has superior elastic and impact resistance, and other desireable mechanical properties. It's not unbelievable to me that it could supplant metal in certain specific applications where it might wear better than steel, require less lubrication, etc. The website shows it used in construction applications (http://www.lignostone.com/foto%27s/civil4.jpg) (click on "Civiele Techniek" in the menu list at left).

Here's some more information (http://www.roechling-haren.de/english/ligno_werkstoff.htm):Lignostone® is a laminated densified wood according to DIN 7707. It consists of beech veneers, which are joined together with thermosetting synthetic resins under pressure and heat. Lignostone® is characterized by the following properties:
Low specific weight
Good electrical insulation
Withstands high mechanical loading
Good slippage
Low- and high-temperature resistance
Resistance to abrasion and wear

And this PDF document (http://www.roechling-haren.de/shared_source/PDF-brochures/lignostone/Lignostone_Technische_Werte_103-4.pdf) lists the technical specifications -- they look pretty reasonable for a material used for "engineering applications". The tensile strength is about half the yield strength of steel. This site's trying to sell it for applications including thermal insulation for cryogenic pipes, electrical transformers, and structural components in tanker ships. Apparently this material has been produced for nearly a century, and is now commonly called "laminated densified wood".

So, it's quite possible that it's being used in some mechanical applications, possibly inculding weapons systems. It's possible the Russians use it, but if they do, I doubt it'd be the only country to do so. I can't find anything to say they do, or anything to suggest they're going to use their wooden weapons against Israel any time soon. Maybe the prophesy is suggesting the Dutch army is going to take a swing at kicking some Israeli Army butt?

Here's (http://www.textfiles.com/politics/russia.txt) an idea (http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/rusisrl.htm) of what may have prompted the OP's question. Googling "Russian military lignostone" gives many more examples, some of them twenty-five years old.

Mangetout
09-24-2004, 08:07 AM
The OP isn't subscribing to the ideas, just asking about their factual validity - nothing idiotic about that at all.

LignoStone is a compressed wood product. The Russians are not making tanks out of it, neither is anyone else (although I suppose it could be argued that there is a top secret project trying it somewhere, but the burden of proof would be upon the person making such a claim).

LignoStone has been used for tank supports - 'tank' here means a container in which liquid is transported or stored, but I suspect this distinction has just been ignored or unnoticed in the headlong rush to shoehorn modern, real-world meaning into Biblical prophecies.

Military use has been made of DuroStone, which is a product made by the same company; the fundies seem to be claiming this is a 'related product', ignoring the fact that it contains no wood and isn't particularly flammable. - Durostone is essentially extruded glass-reinforced plastic. Ho hum.

jmeyers
09-24-2004, 09:00 AM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. They believe that Ezekiel predicts a future invasion if Israel by Russia. They believe that Russia makes tanks out of Lignostone. Do a google search of +Russia +lignostone and you will see. There are millions of Americans who believe this stuff. All I want to do is get my facts straight before I refute their claims.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 09:06 AM
Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia.

One wonders if this dates from the Cold War, when the "commies" were the evil opposition of America (In God they Trust)?

RiverRunner
09-24-2004, 01:14 PM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. They believe that Ezekiel predicts a future invasion if Israel by Russia. They believe that Russia makes tanks out of Lignostone.


Not true. Some certainly do, but by no means do most of them. I drive past Bob Jones University on the way home; I suppose I could stop and take a poll of the folks in the library.


RR

Ravenman
09-24-2004, 01:44 PM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. Hijack: do fundamentalist Christians believe that the Bible contains references to the US of A? What is the Biblical code-name for America?

Ethilrist
09-24-2004, 02:06 PM
Given that they have to go through Georgia, Armenia, maybe Azerbajian, Turkey, perhaps Iran, either Syria & Lebanon or Iraq & Jordan, if the Russians start the war using biblical-era weapons, Israel might well win the final fight vs. the fourteen Russians left alive to cross the border into Israel. Assuming the other countries have no such compulsion to use pointed sticks.

So it could happen, but not because the Russians make their tanks out of wood.

xash
09-24-2004, 07:27 PM
While it against GQ rules to call a poster an idiot, I think it is still safe to call this an idiotic question.EvilGhandi, kindly refrain from making such statements in GQ.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

CarnalK
09-24-2004, 08:01 PM
The fact that most modern weapons/tanks run at high temperature and belch fire it would be unwise to build with a material that could be used as fuel.

Really, the idea is ridiculous on it's face.

Ale
09-24-2004, 08:47 PM
Given that they have to go through Georgia, Armenia, maybe Azerbajian, Turkey, perhaps Iran, either Syria & Lebanon or Iraq & Jordan, if the Russians start the war using biblical-era weapons, Israel might well win the final fight vs. the fourteen Russians left alive to cross the border into Israel. Assuming the other countries have no such compulsion to use pointed sticks.

So it could happen, but not because the Russians make their tanks out of wood.


That really cracked me up. :D

CarnalK
09-24-2004, 08:47 PM
Well to be more thorough I found this pdf file of a technical brochure on lignostone here (http://www.roechling-haren.de/shared_source/PDF-brochures/lignostone/Lignostone_Technische_Werte_103-4.pdf). It seems to list a few makes and 105 degrees C for dry lignostone seems to be the high end running temp.

So I'm guessing it'll burn. Maybe a more technical minded person can peruse and see of what use it would be in modern artillery?

Really Not All That Bright
09-24-2004, 09:07 PM
I don't think Magnesium features heavily in aircraft construction, because of its flammability.
Raw magnesium doesn't feature heavily in any kind of manufacturing- like you pointed out, it likes to catch fire.

It either has to be alloyed, or, in some cases, a ceramic (or at any rate non-magnesium) coating will be used to separate it from oxygen.

Tuckerfan
09-24-2004, 11:39 PM
Raw magnesium doesn't feature heavily in any kind of manufacturing- like you pointed out, it likes to catch fire.

It either has to be alloyed, or, in some cases, a ceramic (or at any rate non-magnesium) coating will be used to separate it from oxygen.
Even the alloys can be flammable and much research is being done to try and find an easy to make alloy with no danger of combusting.

A "wooden" tank is no more bizarre than the idea of building aircraft carriers out of ice, which the Allies seriously considered during WW II. (http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php)Pyke's logical conclusion was to build a behemoth: the H.M.S Habbakuk, he called it. Constructed from 40-foot blocks of ice, his Habbakuk would be 2,000 feet long, 300 feet wide, with walls 40 feet thick. Its interior would easily accommodate 200 Spitfires.AndFor a man who had had ice thrown into his bath, Winston Churchill was surprisingly receptive to the idea. After reading the formal War Cabinet report on the Habbakuk project, Churchill shot back a memo stamped "Most Secret" the next day, on 7 December 1942. "I attach the greatest importance to the prompt examination of these ideas," he wrote. "The advantages of a floating island or islands, even if only used as refueling depots for aircraft, are so dazzling that they do not need at the moment to be discussed."

JEFourie
06-17-2015, 09:15 AM
Wood-plastic of the future

[moderator note - copyrighted article removed, please restrict copying and pasting to the guidelines of fair use]

For more info:

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2012/09/military-branches.cfm

Morgenstern
06-17-2015, 09:24 AM
Zombie warning...

Wood hardly works when facing a 155mm APCR round from a MBT. So, I doubt you'll see much of it on tanks, as the OP suggests.

The Great Sun Jester
06-17-2015, 01:28 PM
Well now I'm wondering 'bout stuff. If the artwork is good enough, it seems like you could build a reasonably convincing (from a distance) replica of a T-90 using Lignostone and good-sized flatbed truck rigged with crawler tracks for not a lot of rubles. If you mixed those in with even numbers of the real McCoy you could present a massive force capable of winning battles through intimidation alone.

Declan
06-17-2015, 05:53 PM
Well now I'm wondering 'bout stuff. If the artwork is good enough, it seems like you could build a reasonably convincing (from a distance) replica of a T-90 using Lignostone and good-sized flatbed truck rigged with crawler tracks for not a lot of rubles. If you mixed those in with even numbers of the real McCoy you could present a massive force capable of winning battles through intimidation alone.

You got it, Decoys.

Add a thermal heater for that infared signature and place them all around.

I think the USAF and Navy, plus Nato killed alot of them in Serbia, back in the nineties.

Declan

Mr. Milton
06-18-2015, 07:57 AM
I never heard of "Lingostone" before, but it sounds a lot like what we used to call "phenolic" or "phenolic resin" (US military). AFAIK, it seemed to be tougher and more durable than plastic, and while I never served in the Russian army, it seemed they used something like that for some small parts (handles, knobs, grips; stuff like that) from the few examples of their materials I have seen in person.

Assuming that it is (as it appears to be) some kind of plastic or epoxy impregnated stuff, it seems to me it'd make pretty crappy fuel for a fire.

Mr. Milton
06-18-2015, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by wolfstu
I don't think Magnesium features heavily in aircraft construction, because of its flammability.



If Padeye is still around, maybe he can back me up on this: LTV used to be well-known (perhaps notorious) for using magnesium in aircraft structures. IIRC, the F7U, F8U (a.k.a. the F-8 Crusader), and the A-7 Corsair II had at least some magnesium in them.

DocCathode
06-19-2015, 03:17 PM
Hijack: do fundamentalist Christians believe that the Bible contains references to the US of A? What is the Biblical code-name for America?

I'm not at home at the moment and probably won't be able to get at my copy of National Sunday Law til , appropriately enough, Sunday. That book identifies the Beast as the Papacy, and says one of the dragons described in Revelations is indeed the USA.

LSLGuy
06-19-2015, 04:22 PM
If Padeye is still around ...He's been deceased for several years.

Flyer
06-20-2015, 10:50 AM
Maybe the tech has improved in the last 11 years, but it seems that this stuff is pretty useful.

One company claims operating temperature range slightly in excess of boiling temp--which would certainly be sufficient for some military applications.

http://www.ckcomposites.com/files/documents/CK_Wood_Laminate_Data_Sheets.pdf

And another company makes it for bullet-proof applications.

http://www.roechling.com/en/high-performance-plastics/composites/laminated-densified-wood/ballistics.html

------------
Secondly, a lot of the old posters in this thread were seriously deficient in their knowledge of the Bible. It has been common for a long time to view the "Gog and Magog" prophecy as referring to Russia.

Here's a link--surprisingly from a Muslim point of view--that goes into some of the history and the background for that view.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/gog_magog_bible_quran.htm

And here is another, more detailed article.
http://www.truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezekiel-38/Ezekiel-38-Gog.htm

Ezekiel 39:2 says, in part, "and will cause thee to come up from the north parts." There are only five nations to the north of Israel--Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Ukraine, and Russia. Lebanon, Syria, and Ukraine can be ignored in this context--they are incapable of mounting such an invasion, and that is extremely unlikely to change. On the other hand, Turkey is close enough to be conceivable. Russia certainly had the lift capacity at one point, and very well might have again. And Moscow is quite close to being due north of Jerusalem.

Alessan
06-20-2015, 01:24 PM
Maybe the tech has improved in the last 11 years, but it seems that this stuff is pretty useful.

One company claims operating temperature range slightly in excess of boiling temp--which would certainly be sufficient for some military applications.

http://www.ckcomposites.com/files/documents/CK_Wood_Laminate_Data_Sheets.pdf

And another company makes it for bullet-proof applications.

http://www.roechling.com/en/high-performance-plastics/composites/laminated-densified-wood/ballistics.html

------------
Secondly, a lot of the old posters in this thread were seriously deficient in their knowledge of the Bible. It has been common for a long time to view the "Gog and Magog" prophecy as referring to Russia.

Here's a link--surprisingly from a Muslim point of view--that goes into some of the history and the background for that view.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/gog_magog_bible_quran.htm

And here is another, more detailed article.
http://www.truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezekiel-38/Ezekiel-38-Gog.htm

Ezekiel 39:2 says, in part, "and will cause thee to come up from the north parts." There are only five nations to the north of Israel--Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Ukraine, and Russia. Lebanon, Syria, and Ukraine can be ignored in this context--they are incapable of mounting such an invasion, and that is extremely unlikely to change. On the other hand, Turkey is close enough to be conceivable. Russia certainly had the lift capacity at one point, and very well might have again. And Moscow is quite close to being due north of Jerusalem.

Except it says "North", not "Due North". Plenty of countries are to the north of Israel, latitude-wise, including Canada and Japan.

Exapno Mapcase
06-20-2015, 03:51 PM
I understand that everyone here loves showing off their massive knowledge of material technologies however faint the provocation...

But shouldn't somebody have said that when you hear a rumor about an actual object for 30 years, now 40 years, without a concrete example ever appearing, that rumor is nonsense, no matter what the subject of the rumor is?

Conspiracy Theories are all identical is requiring that their adherents not be able to think. Bad facts aren't as much an issue as bad thinking.

TSBG
06-20-2015, 06:44 PM
Maybe the tech has improved in the last 11 years, but it seems that this stuff is pretty useful.

One company claims operating temperature range slightly in excess of boiling temp--which would certainly be sufficient for some military applications.

http://www.ckcomposites.com/files/documents/CK_Wood_Laminate_Data_Sheets.pdf

And another company makes it for bullet-proof applications.

http://www.roechling.com/en/high-performance-plastics/composites/laminated-densified-wood/ballistics.html

------------
Secondly, a lot of the old posters in this thread were seriously deficient in their knowledge of the Bible. It has been common for a long time to view the "Gog and Magog" prophecy as referring to Russia.

Here's a link--surprisingly from a Muslim point of view--that goes into some of the history and the background for that view.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/gog_magog_bible_quran.htm

And here is another, more detailed article.
http://www.truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezekiel-38/Ezekiel-38-Gog.htm

Ezekiel 39:2 says, in part, "and will cause thee to come up from the north parts." There are only five nations to the north of Israel--Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Ukraine, and Russia. Lebanon, Syria, and Ukraine can be ignored in this context--they are incapable of mounting such an invasion, and that is extremely unlikely to change. On the other hand, Turkey is close enough to be conceivable. Russia certainly had the lift capacity at one point, and very well might have again. And Moscow is quite close to being due north of Jerusalem.

Knowledge of the Bile =/= equating Gog and Magog with Russia. That's an interpretation of the Bible. The posters who are not aware of this view are only deficient in their knowledge of bizarre apocalyptic cults.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 02:23 PM
I'm not saying the Lignostone will be the material used by the Jews to burn left behind from the Russians, but dismissing this guys question out of hand as bunk and bull simply because you can't wrap your little minds around the possibility seems more "fundamentalist" to me than anything else. One doesn't have to look hard in defense and weapon tech to find materials that are strong and still capable of being burned as a fuel. One such weapon platform that comes to mind is a Glock pistol. Sure it has a steel barrel and slide, but the remainder is almost entirely composite, a material which will readily burn. Another "unfathomable" material which has remarkable strength to weight ratio and still capable of being burned as a fuel is carbon, such as that of a carbon fiber composite or other material. Add to that the nano-tubes technology and you've got a material capable of building a space elevator with, something we've been talking about in the last few years here. Here's an article regarding the use of ground up wood plasticized into bullet resistant materials: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2012/09/military-branches.cfm

It seems there may be more DOPE than STRAIGHT in this thread. It also seems like any time someone mentions fundamental Christians as a source of information more effort is spent discounting the claims based on emotion and scoff rather than the possibility or impossibility factually with SCIENTIFIC arguments. I was deployed to Afghanistan 2010-2011 a believe me we left a lot of garbage capable of being burned behind, and most of it was leftover portions of weapons systems or packaging from them. Ever seen a military vehicle destroyed in war? I have, first hand, and believe me A LOT of it burned, including the occupants. Why are so many ready to dismiss this question out of hand without consideration? Could it be a defensive reflex at the thought of there being a God? Prophesy has been increasingly revealed and to date has been 100% accurate once fulfilled. Call that what you will, but to me, ignoring it as bunk without even consideration for a moment seems like another biblical prophesy unfolding, delusion. The next step would seem to be derision.

TriPolar
12-28-2015, 02:33 PM
Let me get this straight, we're talkin bout Russians building weapons that will burn so they can do what it sez in the Bible?

Mangetout
12-28-2015, 03:12 PM
Why are so many ready to dismiss this question out of hand without consideration? Could it be a defensive reflex at the thought of there being a God? Prophesy has been increasingly revealed and to date has been 100% accurate once fulfilled. Call that what you will, but to me, ignoring it as bunk without even consideration for a moment seems like another biblical prophesy unfolding, delusion. The next step would seem to be derision.

You've got it sewn up quite tight. Anyone who expresses skepticism is automatically disqualified as delusional.

Your position is immune to debate and unassailable by reason.

Dewey Finn
12-28-2015, 03:24 PM
Here's an article regarding the use of ground up wood plasticized into bullet resistant materials: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2012/09/military-branches.cfm
The last person to revive this thread linked to the same article from 2012, eight years after this thread was started.
For more info:

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2012/09/military-branches.cfm
And I like this statement; once an event occurs, you can find a Biblical passage that appears to predict that event.
Why are so many ready to dismiss this question out of hand without consideration? Could it be a defensive reflex at the thought of there being a God? Prophesy has been increasingly revealed and to date has been 100% accurate once fulfilled.

Mangetout
12-28-2015, 03:48 PM
Any fool can predict the past.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 07:17 PM
You've got it sewn up quite tight. Anyone who expresses skepticism is automatically disqualified as delusional.

Your position is immune to debate and unassailable by reason.


Healthy skepticism is the starting point of forming a logical argument, but that's completely different than Reductio ad absurdum, which is what is taking place here. That's a cop-out from arguing with facts and the open presentation of theory.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 07:21 PM
Let me get this straight, we're talkin bout Russians building weapons that will burn so they can do what it sez in the Bible?

No, we're debating the facts regarding a specific claim, which is that Russia has begun building their weapon systems using a product that can be burned as a fuel. The biblical prophesy has no bearing on whether Russia is currently undertaking this. Let's simply focus on finding the facts regarding this claim, which is, whether Russia has begun building weapon systems using this specific material.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 07:23 PM
Any fool can predict the past.


What's your point?

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 07:26 PM
The last person to revive this thread linked to the same article from 2012, eight years after this thread was started.

And I like this statement; once an event occurs, you can find a Biblical passage that appears to predict that event.

The problem with your statement is that the prophesies were made prior to coming true. Pointing it out after the fact does not dilute the statistical probability of the prophesy coming true.

Malden Capell
12-28-2015, 07:38 PM
I envisioned the war of armageddon to be so long and so fierce that we blow ourselves back to the stone-age. We actually shoot up all the factories that we use to produce weapons, leaving each soldier with only the means to produce bows and arrows, swords and shields.

Was it Einstein or Oppenhiemer who said that he did not know what WWIII would be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.


And after that a brilliant scientist will turn us all into Daleks!

boffking
12-28-2015, 07:39 PM
I don't know anything about Lignostone, but Magog is in Quebec, not Russia.

dropzone
12-28-2015, 07:47 PM
I dont know 'bout no Bible or Ezekiel or nothin', but I can think of few long-chain polymers I wish to be near while they burn. Think Trabant.

Although I expect to be Raptured before it would matter.

TriPolar
12-28-2015, 08:04 PM
No, we're debating the facts regarding a specific claim, which is that Russia has begun building their weapon systems using a product that can be burned as a fuel. The biblical prophesy has no bearing on whether Russia is currently undertaking this. Let's simply focus on finding the facts regarding this claim, which is, whether Russia has begun building weapon systems using this specific material.

Why are we doing that?

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 08:22 PM
I don't know anything about Lignostone, but Magog is in Quebec, not Russia.

I know you were probably joking earlier but I didn't see an lol or j/k, so that's why I'm posting a response.

Ancient writings and maps have been found that showed Magog as the area currently known as Russia, so they aren't theorizing which nations are which at this point. It's simply a matter of the Unions occurring between Russia, Turkey, Persia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Syria and the peace treaty beinged signed, if that specific bible prophesy turns out to be true as well. The peace treaty should be no problem once Russia conquers those nations and exercises control over them.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 08:24 PM
Why are we doing that?

Because the OP asked the question, and I've heard a similar claim. I was looking for the same answer as him, which is whether there is any accuracy to it at all.

Francis Vaughan
12-28-2015, 08:25 PM
The problem with your statement is that the prophesies were made prior to coming true. Pointing it out after the fact does not dilute the statistical probability of the prophesy coming true.

Not really. The trouble with the prophecies is that they never give a date. It is trivial to make some vague statement that (for instance) entity X will go to war with entity Y. Sometime in the next couple of thousand years it is very likely that you can come up with enough of a match in history that someone will say - "see - this is prophecy Z". The hundreds of thousands of unprophesied events don't ever seem to count.

You could play a simple game. Sit around a table and make up prophesies, but without dates. (Alcohol might be a good addition here.) Next day, go back and see if you can match up your prophesies to events in the last 2000 years of world history. I bet you could make the vast majority fit, at least fit as well as any of the claimed correct biblical prophesies.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 08:27 PM
I dont know 'bout no Bible or Ezekiel or nothin', but I can think of few long-chain polymers I wish to be near while they burn. Think Trabant.

Although I expect to be Raptured before it would matter.

Right! I can think of a few energetic materials inside of American warheads and rockets that can be used as a fuel source, I'm sure there are probably plenty in Russian gear too.

Ageranger361
12-28-2015, 11:10 PM
Not really. The trouble with the prophecies is that they never give a date. It is trivial to make some vague statement that (for instance) entity X will go to war with entity Y. Sometime in the next couple of thousand years it is very likely that you can come up with enough of a match in history that someone will say - "see - this is prophecy Z". The hundreds of thousands of unprophesied events don't ever seem to count.

You could play a simple game. Sit around a table and make up prophesies, but without dates. (Alcohol might be a good addition here.) Next day, go back and see if you can match up your prophesies to events in the last 2000 years of world history. I bet you could make the vast majority fit, at least fit as well as any of the claimed correct biblical prophesies.

I was going to post a lengthy reply but I figured the facts are easily available to anyone willing to look for them and anyone with an open mind enough to read the prophesies and judge for themselves. Here's a link. A simple Google search will provide loads of evidence and reference to the prophesy. Here's the link: http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

If you are not willing to investigate for yourself and consider, then nothing I say will change that here.

Derleth
12-28-2015, 11:55 PM
I was going to post a lengthy reply but I figured the facts are easily available to anyone willing to look for them and anyone with an open mind enough to read the prophesies and judge for themselves. Here's a link. A simple Google search will provide loads of evidence and reference to the prophesy. Here's the link: http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

If you are not willing to investigate for yourself and consider, then nothing I say will change that here.OK, so what's the Bible's hit percentage? How many Biblical prophecies are there, and how many have come true?

BTW: One of the prophecies on that site is that trees will grow in Israel again. Gee, they really went out on a limb on that one, let me tell you...

Mangetout
12-29-2015, 02:14 AM
What's your point?

Matching prophecies with outcomes that already happened is easy and demonstrates nothing more than the creativity of the human brain when it comes to coercing data. People have retrofit Nostradamus' writings to events after those events unfolded.

To the extent that prophecy can have meaningfully scored a 'hit', it would have to be recognisably interpreted before the prognosticated event - and the 'hit rate' would be the percentage of those predictions that came true.

So.... how many cases have you got where scholars pointed out a prophecy in the Bible before it happened, and then it happened in exactly the way predicted?

lisiate
12-29-2015, 03:39 AM
Going back to the OP's original question: "Has anyone any concrete info on Russian use of Lignostone?"

The answer seems to have been no for the past eleven years (http://prophecypuzzle.blogspot.co.nz/2011/06/correction-and-apology-for-information.html):

Comment: Russia is not making weapons from Lignostone. This claim goes back to a letter written to the Soviet foreign minister by a complete loon in 1974 and has been repeated unquestioningly, and with no attempt to check facts, by biblical literalists ever since. I have challenged literally hundreds of people to name ONE Russian weapon system that includes Lignostone parts, and have received no answers. By continuing to spread this claim you just make yourselves look like fools. Russia is not making weapons from Lignostone.

Since returning home I have done quite a bit of research and must admit that my “Anonymous” commenter appears to be correct. All of the information I could find regarding lignostone being used in Russian weaponry was from Christian sources. I made the mistake of assuming that the respected resources I had quoted were reporting from dependable news sources. I appreciate the correction from the commenter and want to apologize for misleading anyone by repeating this information.

coremelt
12-29-2015, 05:25 AM
anyway why the obsession with lignostone? All kinds of things that are classified as weapons will burn in the right conditions. AFAIK you can even put depleted uranium into a breeder reactor and get useful fuel out of it. So maybe Russia will dump all its DU ammo and armour on Israel and they'll reprocess that into nuclear fuel and burn it for seven years. Makes just as much sense as anything else in revelations. Eg not much at all !

Ignotus
12-29-2015, 07:03 AM
You could play a simple game. Sit around a table and make up prophesies, but without dates. (Alcohol might be a good addition here.) Next day, go back and see if you can match up your prophesies to events in the last 2000 years of world history. I bet you could make the vast majority fit, at least fit as well as any of the claimed correct biblical prophesies.

"And there shall in that time be rumours of things going astray, and there will be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia work base, that has an attachment…at this time, a friend shall lose his friends’s hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before around eight o’clock."

jz78817
12-29-2015, 07:25 AM
Let me get this straight, we're talkin bout Russians building weapons that will burn so they can do what it sez in the Bible?

The whole thing is moronic. "Lignostone" is just wood stabilized with epoxy. I have a couple of rifle stocks (http://www.rifle-stocks.com/laminated_woods.htm) made from it.

The problem with your statement is that the prophesies were made prior to coming true. Pointing it out after the fact does not dilute the statistical probability of the prophesy coming true.

Most biblical/ancient "prophesies" are so hilariously vague and non-specific that they can be contorted to fit pretty much any modern phenomenon. Just like Nostradamus, there were people in the '90s who really believed that Bill Clinton was the third Antichrist after Napoleon and Hitler. Human beings are excellent at recognizing patterns , to the point where we see them even if they don't exist. Like the "notable deaths always happen in threes" nonsense. No they don't; we just group them into threes because of that stupid saying.

crowmanyclouds
12-29-2015, 08:03 AM
{...} "Lignostone" is just wood stabilized with epoxy. I have a couple of rifle stocks (http://www.rifle-stocks.com/laminated_woods.htm) made from it. {...}AKA Pakkawood, Staminawood, Colorwood, Dymondwood, and compreg . . . and I'd bet my left nut they too are getting their raw blanks from Rutland Plywood (http://www.rutply.com/)!

CMC fnord!

Ageranger361
01-01-2016, 11:19 AM
OK, so what's the Bible's hit percentage? How many Biblical prophecies are there, and how many have come true?

BTW: One of the prophecies on that site is that trees will grow in Israel again. Gee, they really went out on a limb on that one, let me tell you...

The bibles hit percentage so far is 100%. The reason that trees growing again in Jerusalem is significant is because for years Jerusalem was a waste land and no matter what anyone did to try to grow things there it failed. There are historical accounts of Mark Twain and several others which visited Jerusalem and even talked about how absolutely desolate the area was and how unable it was to support growth. When Israel moved back to Jerusalem they dug culverts and redirected water from the Sea to the area. They also found an unknown brackish water aquifer underground below Jerusalem. This is very significant because normally salt and brackish water is lethal to most inland vegetation, in particular, vegetation that is used to produce crops. However, the soil composition in Israel is extremely unique and its the only place on the Earth that we currently know of that creates a situation where salt and brackish water unlocks nutrients in the right way to not only make vegetation growth possible, but also produce fruits that are MUCH sweeter than anywhere else. The prophecy also predicts that the desert will bloom with flowers. Israel now has a large ornamental flower export that previously has been impossible due to the soil composition.

The Bible has a LOT of very precise predictions in it that have so far been 100% accurate. If you honestly want to prove this true (or false) for yourself you can do the REAL research and digging to pull up the facts, but if you don't, well that's just another prophesy coming true.

2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/2/11/s_1118011

If you want a TRULY scientific analysis of the accuracy of the bible and its prophesies, look up Chuck Missler Bible In 24 Hours on YouTube. All it will cost is your time and humility.

Morgenstern
01-01-2016, 11:34 AM
I seriously doubt the T-90, T-90MS or the Armata has anything but composite armor with ERA (explosive reactive armor) layered over that. Those tanks are designed to face the M1A2 Abrams, Challengers and Leopards with their large smooth bore canons and state of the art armor. Resign impregnated plywood? Not.

ETA, From Military-today.com
[T-90MS, Tagil]...combat machine has new composite armor as well as built-in Relikt explosive reactive armor (ERA) in place of the previous Kontakt-5. The Tagil is fitted with side skirts with built-in Relikt ERA. It provides protection against tandem warheads and reduces penetration of APFSDS rounds by over 50%. ...

No plywood tanks in Russia.

Chronos
01-01-2016, 11:39 AM
When was there ever a time in history when there weren't any trees growing in Jerusalem? There were certainly trees there at the time of Jesus. Not as many as in Brazil, sure, but there have always been trees there.

Back to wood composites, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned their biggest advantage over steel: Wood is cheap. It might not be as good as steel for a lot of applications, but there are still plenty of applications where it's good enough, and so if cost is an object, you make things for those applications out of wood. Sure, nothing made out of wood is going to stand up to a modern main battle tank like the Abrams, but it wouldn't be too hard to make wood armor that can withstand small arms fire. And so, if you're just worried about small arms fire, you might make an armored vehicle out of wood.

Ageranger361
01-14-2016, 12:57 AM
Knowledge of the Bile =/= equating Gog and Magog with Russia. That's an interpretation of the Bible. The posters who are not aware of this view are only deficient in their knowledge of bizarre apocalyptic cults.

Magog has been proven to be located where modern day Russia is located via archeological discoveries of ancient maps. Magog is Russia. Gog is a person who is either in control of Magog or is empowering the person in control of Magog. All of these things are easily provable with a little scholastic historical research and a little examination of the passages in the Bible, but truth is not what you're looking for, an opportunity to demean the Bible and anyone who believes in it is. You're a very shallow person. Perhaps you should move to another forum if you don't have anything positive and/or factual to add.

Ageranger361
01-14-2016, 01:05 AM
When was there ever a time in history when there weren't any trees growing in Jerusalem? There were certainly trees there at the time of Jesus. Not as many as in Brazil, sure, but there have always been trees there.

Back to wood composites, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned their biggest advantage over steel: Wood is cheap. It might not be as good as steel for a lot of applications, but there are still plenty of applications where it's good enough, and so if cost is an object, you make things for those applications out of wood. Sure, nothing made out of wood is going to stand up to a modern main battle tank like the Abrams, but it wouldn't be too hard to make wood armor that can withstand small arms fire. And so, if you're just worried about small arms fire, you might make an armored vehicle out of wood.

What you want is to cast doubt without having to do the leg work of proving/disproving with research and factual findings. It is common knowledge and easily provable with a little research of history that Jerusalem was a desolate bone yard of a desert. Mark Twain went there in 1867 and wrote about how crappy it was: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/netanyahus-embrace-of-mark-twain/?_r=0

I pulled that up from a 5 second long Google search. Do you care about facts or are you merely here to cast doubt on a subject that you have zero knowledge of?

Professing themselves wise, they became as fools...

Ageranger361
01-14-2016, 01:26 AM
It doesn't say anything about trees...

Is. 35:1-10
1 The desert will rejoice, and flowers will bloom in the wastelands. 2 The desert will sing and shout for joy; it will be as beautiful as the Lebanon Mountains and as fertile as the fields of Carmel and Sharon. Everyone will see the Lord's splendor, see his greatness and power. 3 Give strength to hands that are tired and to knees that tremble with weakness. 4 Tell everyone who is discouraged, "Be strong and don't be afraid! God is coming to your rescue, coming to punish your enemies." 5 The blind will be able to see, and the deaf will hear. 6 The lame will leap and dance, and those who cannot speak will shout for joy. Streams of water will flow through the desert; 7 the burning sand will become a lake, and dry land will be filled with springs. Where jackals used to live, marsh grass and reeds will grow. 8 There will be a highway there, called "The Road of Holiness." No sinner will ever travel that road; no fools will mislead those who follow it. 9 No lions will be there; no fierce animals will pass that way. Those whom the Lord has rescued will travel home by that road. 10 They will reach Jerusalem with gladness, singing and shouting for joy. They will be happy forever, forever free from sorrow and grief.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/35.html

Here's a novel idea, how about you do some research and find out what the Book says before you make assertions as if you were speaking factually. That is what Euclid taught you to do isn't it?

scudsucker
01-14-2016, 04:11 AM
Magog has been proven to be located where modern day Russia is located via archeological discoveries of ancient maps. Magog is Russia. Gog is a person who is either in control of Magog or is empowering the person in control of Magog. All of these things are easily provable with a little scholastic historical research and a little examination of the passages in the Bible, but truth is not what you're looking for, an opportunity to demean the Bible and anyone who believes in it is. You're a very shallow person. Perhaps you should move to another forum if you don't have anything positive and/or factual to add.

Perhaps you'd like to provide some kind of proof of your claims? For example, can you please provide proof that "Magog is Russia"?

Or... maybe YOU should move to another forum as you don't appear to have any verified facts to add.

am77494
01-14-2016, 04:24 AM
Lignostone is a composite material of laminated wood and synthetic epoxy...... that after Armageddon, Israel will burn Russian weapons for fuel for seven years.

<A chemical engineer's perspective> Even if there was enough epoxy wood available, you may not want to burn it. Burning epoxy produces toxic compounds and if Israel started burning them on the scale predicted here, the folks there may not live for 7 years.

Epoxy Thermal Decomposition links (http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/11085/~/dow-epoxy---thermal-decomposition)

silenus
01-14-2016, 10:55 AM
It doesn't say anything about trees...

Is. 35:1-10
1 The desert will rejoice, and flowers will bloom in the wastelands. 2 The desert will sing and shout for joy; it will be as beautiful as the Lebanon Mountains and as fertile as the fields of Carmel and Sharon. Everyone will see the Lord's splendor, see his greatness and power. 3 Give strength to hands that are tired and to knees that tremble with weakness. 4 Tell everyone who is discouraged, "Be strong and don't be afraid! God is coming to your rescue, coming to punish your enemies." 5 The blind will be able to see, and the deaf will hear. 6 The lame will leap and dance, and those who cannot speak will shout for joy. Streams of water will flow through the desert; 7 the burning sand will become a lake, and dry land will be filled with springs. Where jackals used to live, marsh grass and reeds will grow. 8 There will be a highway there, called "The Road of Holiness." No sinner will ever travel that road; no fools will mislead those who follow it. 9 No lions will be there; no fierce animals will pass that way. Those whom the Lord has rescued will travel home by that road. 10 They will reach Jerusalem with gladness, singing and shouting for joy. They will be happy forever, forever free from sorrow and grief.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/gnt/isaiah/35.html

Here's a novel idea, how about you do some research and find out what the Book says before you make assertions as if you were speaking factually. That is what Euclid taught you to do isn't it?

Critical thinking isn't being taught in schools any more, is it? I have news for you dude. You are wrong. Completely, absolutely, totally wrong. Always and forever wrong. Learn to live with it.

Really Not All That Bright
01-14-2016, 11:38 AM
Magog has been proven to be located where modern day Russia is located via archeological discoveries of ancient maps.
What ancient maps? Where can I see copies of them?

HMS Irruncible
01-14-2016, 11:57 AM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. They believe that Ezekiel predicts a future invasion if Israel by Russia. They believe that Russia makes tanks out of Lignostone. Do a google search of +Russia +lignostone and you will see. There are millions of Americans who believe this stuff. All I want to do is get my facts straight before I refute their claims.
Glad you started this thread. I remember this from a Jack Chick comic book when I was a kid in the 70's. Even at that age I recall thinking it was just silly to build a tank out of flammable materials, because the obvious counter would be flamethrowers (ignoring you know, high-explosive projectiles that they tend to get exposed to).

Also good to know there was some nugget of truth to the story. Water "tank" supports. hee hee.

HMS Irruncible
01-14-2016, 12:11 PM
All of these things are easily provable with a little scholastic historical research and a little examination of the passages in the Bible.
If it's that easy, would you mind walking us through this little scholastic historical research? I'd Google it but I want to make sure I'm looking at exactly the same scholastical historical research that you're referring to.

Ageranger361
01-15-2016, 10:53 AM
Not really. The trouble with the prophecies is that they never give a date. It is trivial to make some vague statement that (for instance) entity X will go to war with entity Y. Sometime in the next couple of thousand years it is very likely that you can come up with enough of a match in history that someone will say - "see - this is prophecy Z". The hundreds of thousands of unprophesied events don't ever seem to count.

You could play a simple game. Sit around a table and make up prophesies, but without dates. (Alcohol might be a good addition here.) Next day, go back and see if you can match up your prophesies to events in the last 2000 years of world history. I bet you could make the vast majority fit, at least fit as well as any of the claimed correct biblical prophesies.

I wouldn't consider stating that Israel would be scattered abroad and then brought back to Jerusalem from the East, West, North, then South (In That Specific Order) vague, which is now a historically accurate fact.

Here is another prophesy that has been fulfilled:

(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 BC and the second in AD 70. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3,500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 20th.)

This is but one of many others that can be found here:
boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=18972047

If you TRULY want to investigate the accuracy of the bible and it's prophesies then apply the same rigorous standards of research to it as we do to other sciences and theories. The problem you have is that you have chosen to believe what you want without fact, and that is not science or research, that's religion.

Ageranger361
01-15-2016, 10:59 AM
and just in case you aren't aware of what 10 to the 20th means, it's 10 with 20 zero's after it...

1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Chronos
01-15-2016, 11:35 AM
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to the 20th.)
Could you show your work on that? Because given the example of history, the chance of any given people being conquered eventually is, at absolute best, 1/2, and given that a people is conquered, the chance of them being transported by ship and enslaved is so close to 1 that it's not worth tracking the difference. What part of the prophecy is the hard part?

Really Not All That Bright
01-15-2016, 12:28 PM
The prophet Moses foretold...
You don't get to count things written after the fact as a foretelling, even if they are attributed to people speaking before the fact. Also, still waiting on those maps.

T.M.
01-15-2016, 05:09 PM
As far as I know, Tanks artillery guns etc are made of steel. Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminium, and stuff.

Tacos are made of tortillas,beef, tomatos, lettuce and cheese.

Atoms are made of protons, electrons and bon bons.

While it against GQ rules to call a poster an idiot, I think it is still safe to call this an idiotic question.

The WW2 mosquito was mainly made out of wood and was a successful fighter bomber

T.M.
01-15-2016, 05:13 PM
The WW2 mosquito was mainly made out of wood and was a successful fighter bomber

Some of the new timber composites being used in the construction industry are said to be stronger pound for pound than steel

Chronos
01-15-2016, 11:54 PM
It's always tricky to define the strength, singular, of wood, because it's a non-isotropic material, and often non-homogeneous as well. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some woods are stronger than steel in some directions, but probably not in all.

Isilder
01-16-2016, 12:47 AM
Nah the prophecy is saying that the Israeli people will invade the OTHER country, claiming wit as the winners prize... Funny, No one does that these days. Somewhat immoral and callous.. its not going to work unless you enslave the population for a few centuries... Who does that ?

I guess though if the enemy only had flammable weapons, they deserve to lose, and its not really much of a statement about Israel's strengths is it... "in other news, in the Battle of Israel vs a two year old boy, Israel won the lollypop" ???


The USA navy has destroyers made of wood.. One hit a reef/atoll in Phillipines a few years ago.. (2011 perhaps) , and it was beyond repair, flooded wood isn't good.. yet they didn't want to lose it to the sea, so cheap way to get it removed back to Hawaii or something, for careful salvage of entire rooms or devices in the ship, the US Navy cut it up with a string .. The string has cutting surfaces attached/embedded, and they drag the string all the way around the boat in one direction, and then reversed it the other direction, and back and forth, cutting through the ship.

slaphead
01-19-2016, 01:00 PM
The WW2 mosquito was mainly made out of wood and was a successful fighter bomber
And on that topic, the Soviet Lavochkin 5 was a very successful fighter with many major structures built of phenol-impregnated wood.

However the Israelis have been a bit slow off the mark and the soviets burnt them all already....

Ranger Jeff
01-19-2016, 10:05 PM
I believe the hulls of circa WWII US Navy PT boats were plywood.

I imagine resin impregnated wood laminates might be useful to make cases to transport and store artillery and tank rounds.

Ageranger361
02-01-2016, 10:23 AM
You don't get to count things written after the fact as a foretelling, even if they are attributed to people speaking before the fact. Also, still waiting on those maps.

The prophetic writings were made and verified by modern dating methods and archeological research and dating methods. They were not written after the fact. Show even one example of a written biblical prophesy that occurred after the fact.

Here's a study of Ezekiel prophecy with cited sources. If you want a research report complete your own and cite your sources. http://trackingbibleprophecy.com/gog_magog.php

On the maps, Simply put, No. I've provided several links to sources already, you've provided nothing. I'm not going continue to do the leg work for you just for you to come back and change the argument to something else that needs more leg work from me. If you truly want to disprove the bible and its prophesies you should undertake serious scholastic and scientific research on your own. If you aren't interested in finding out for yourself by scientific analyses of the bible prophesies then that is on you.

Ageranger361
02-01-2016, 10:28 AM
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation.

—Edmund Spencer

Really Not All That Bright
02-01-2016, 10:47 AM
I've provided several links to sources already, you've provided nothing. I'm not going continue to do the leg work for you just for you to come back and change the argument to something else that needs more leg work from me.
The burden of proof rests on the proponent of a claim. I have "provided nothing" because I haven't claimed anything.

And you haven't bothered to explain what portions of your sources support your claims. You're just throwing out random links. Quote the relevant passages, if they support what you're claiming.

Finagle
02-01-2016, 12:12 PM
AKA Pakkawood, Staminawood, Colorwood, Dymondwood, and compreg . . . and I'd bet my left nut they too are getting their raw blanks from Rutland Plywood (http://www.rutply.com/)!

CMC fnord!

Given that the Rutland factory burned down in 2014 and the owners show no interest in rebuilding, I personally wouldn't want to be betting my progenitive organs on them ever producing more of the stuff.

Really Not All That Bright
02-01-2016, 12:19 PM
But was it burned down for fuel? ;)

silenus
02-01-2016, 12:32 PM
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is mindless acceptance of Biblical prophesies as any type of Truth.

—silenus

Ageranger361
02-01-2016, 02:16 PM
The burden of proof rests on the proponent of a claim. I have "provided nothing" because I haven't claimed anything.

And you haven't bothered to explain what portions of your sources support your claims. You're just throwing out random links. Quote the relevant passages, if they support what you're claiming.

Here's a link to a cited wiki page that shows a reconstructed map of Hecataeus c. 570-476BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps

View the map and Look for Scythia found in modern day southern Russia.

Here's a link to a cited scholarly study into the identity of Magog (a son of Japheth, a son of Noah). These descendants have been conclusively linked to the Scythians by Herodotus. Herodotus' reports regarding the Sycthians have been confirmed by "numerous archaeological discoveries".
https://www.khouse.org/articles/2002/427/print/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps#/media/File:Hecataeus_world_map-en.svg

I'm not going to write a thesis in APA format for you. If you choose to believe that the Bible is just a work of fiction without any research, that is your choice. I've provided links to the works which have been cited and the works speak for themselves. It's up to you to read them and come to your own conclusion. It seems to me that you find it easier to accept that the Bible is a work of fiction based on your set of beliefs rather than researching facts to prove or disprove it, which is the still exercising faith:


Full Definition of faith

plural faiths play \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\

1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

While I do exercise faith in the Bible as God's inerrant word, I also research the topics that it discusses to prove or disprove them out wherever able based on real research looking for the fingerprints of God. This is called searching for truth. You don't seem to be interested in truth, rather, you seem interested in denouncing and belittling the work as fiction by arguing that it's absurd without research.

Christ died on a cross for your sins, was buried, and arose from the dead three days later. Salvation is offered freely to all who will accept it as His gracious gift. Whether you choose to believe in and accept Him or not has no bearing on it's accuracy and truth. It only has bearing on your ultimate salvation or lack thereof. We each must choose for ourselves. I pray that you choose to believe and accept Him. The ball is in your court.

Ageranger361
02-01-2016, 02:19 PM
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is mindless acceptance of Biblical prophesies as any type of Truth.

—silenus

Now prove that quote out by undertaking the research to disprove the Bible.

CannyDan
02-01-2016, 02:22 PM
Reported to suggest forum change.

silenus
02-01-2016, 02:25 PM
Now prove that quote out by undertaking the research to disprove the Bible.

Oh, no. You are the one asserting "truth." The burden is on you to prove it true, which you haven't even begun to do. All you have done is cite worthless sources that can't back up any of their "data" and state that prophesies are true that are nothing of the sort. Try again.

Colibri
02-01-2016, 02:32 PM
Moved to Great Debates.

Please note that this thread was started in 2004.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Ageranger361
02-01-2016, 04:24 PM
Reported to suggest forum change.

I agree with CannyDan here. This will be my last post unless I'm directly asked a question or quoted. This topic was originally started to find information regarding Lignostone and it's use in military hardware which could be used as a fuel in the end times to fulfill a biblical prophesy. I've said my piece and I have nothing to prove or sell to anyone here. I've simply answered the off topic posts of others who have insinuated that Biblical prophesies have not come true and that they are vague.

I agree that this discussion has gotten off topic and that I have contributed to that in my responses to these false assertions.

Atomic Alex
02-01-2016, 06:26 PM
Just as a sidenote, I find it interesting that Israel came back into existence as a nation at pretty much the exact same historical moment that nuclear weapons were invented. Before that a fiery Armageddon was something people could only imagine, afterwards it was a real possibility...and still is to an extent, and it wouldn't take much for a new arms race to begin once again.

Just a coincedence? Certainly. A bit of an odd one, well everyone can decide that for themselves.

Latro
02-02-2016, 03:51 AM
View the map and Look for Scythia found in modern day southern Russia.
... The ball is in your court.

So there is no ancient map with Magog on it.

Thank you for confirming that.

Alessan
02-02-2016, 04:49 AM
I find it amusing that someone thinks the Russians are Israel's greatest enemy.

Bryan Ekers
02-02-2016, 07:23 AM
Will anyone promoting this as biblical prophecy in action promise to forever shut up about it if the end of the world (or whatever) doesn't occur as a result?

Gary Kumquat
02-02-2016, 08:31 AM
I agree with CannyDan here. This will be my last post unless I'm directly asked a question or quoted. This topic was originally started to find information regarding Lignostone and it's use in military hardware which could be used as a fuel in the end times to fulfill a biblical prophesy.

OK, do you agree that Russia is not using Lignostone in military hardware, with the possible exception of rifle stocks?

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 12:57 PM
So there is no ancient map with Magog on it.

Thank you for confirming that.

You're willfully ignoring that the Sycthians are the same as MAGOG as evidenced by facts shown in that article that is a cited scholarly article. You wish to remain ignorant.

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 12:58 PM
OK, do you agree that Russia is not using Lignostone in military hardware, with the possible exception of rifle stocks?

I'm not agreeing to anything that I do not know for certain. My stance has been one of questioning it as a fact since I started posting in this thread. I have no idea what material Russia is using in it's hardware. Do you?

Latro
02-02-2016, 01:05 PM
You're willfully ignoring that the Sycthians are the same as MAGOG as evidenced by facts shown in that article that is a cited scholarly article. You wish to remain ignorant.

You made a false statement.
Magog is not on any map.
Besides that, that Magog would be the Scythians is just one fringe theory.
The wiki article you yourself linked to makes it all too clear that there are other, more believable, identifications.

Ravenman
02-02-2016, 01:59 PM
Sure, our friend has referenced many scholarly articles that prove his position. But I have more, better-informed, better-researched scholarly articles that show he's wrong. Binders and binders full of great scholarly articles.

Gary Kumquat
02-02-2016, 02:04 PM
I'm not agreeing to anything that I do not know for certain. My stance has been one of questioning it as a fact since I started posting in this thread. I have no idea what material Russia is using in it's hardware. Do you?

In other words, you have absolutely no reason to think they are using it, so are relying on an argument from ignorance fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) with a side order of burden of proof fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof).

If I were to allege you were into sex with animals, do you think people should believe me until you prove me wrong, or do you think I should have to provide some evidence before people believe that claim? And what's really depressing is you're the second fervent Christian in two weeks to have the same issues with logic.

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 04:16 PM
You made a false statement.
Magog is not on any map.
Besides that, that Magog would be the Scythians is just one fringe theory.
The wiki article you yourself linked to makes it all too clear that there are other, more believable, identifications.

I never said that MAGOG was found on ancient maps, I said it has been proven to be in Russia by the DISCOVERY OF ANCIENT MAPS, which is NOT false.

My statement:
"Magog has been proven to be located where modern day Russia is located via archeological discoveries of ancient maps. Magog is Russia. Gog is a person who is either in control of Magog or is empowering the person in control of Magog. All of these things are easily provable with a little scholastic historical research and a little examination of the passages in the Bible, but truth is not what you're looking for, an opportunity to demean the Bible and anyone who believes in it is. You're a very shallow person. Perhaps you should move to another forum if you don't have anything positive and/or factual to add."

None of what I stated here is false. You just choose not to believe in the facts that I have presented here. There are thousands of theories, and citing an article that points this out does not damage my point that the facts, backed up by archeological discoveries and reviews of the map and Herodotus' viability, is accurate, and in fact the most defendable position using these facts.

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 04:22 PM
In other words, you have absolutely no reason to think they are using it, so are relying on an argument from ignorance fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) with a side order of burden of proof fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof).

If I were to allege you were into sex with animals, do you think people should believe me until you prove me wrong, or do you think I should have to provide some evidence before people believe that claim? And what's really depressing is you're the second fervent Christian in two weeks to have the same issues with logic.

I'm not alleging anything, maybe you have a problem with comprehension. What I've done is ask for information that proves or disproves that Russia IS or IS NOT using lignostone in their hardware and whether lignostone would actually even be usable as military hardware. It's called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research?

CannyDan
02-02-2016, 04:24 PM
I'd sure like to see one of them there ancient maps showing the land mass of Russia and a legend identifying it as Magog. Yep, I'd really like that. Tell me, where can I see one?

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 04:45 PM
I already provided it. You need to read

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 04:49 PM
Sure, our friend has referenced many scholarly articles that prove his position. But I have more, better-informed, better-researched scholarly articles that show he's wrong. Binders and binders full of great scholarly articles.

That is merely a statement of opinion until you provide some of them for review.

Lemur866
02-02-2016, 05:07 PM
Identifying Russia with the Scythians is as silly as saying that England is the same as the Roman Empire, because the southern part of Britain was part of the Roman Empire.

It's really, really silly. The Scythians vanished as a people. And Ancient Scythia covered what is now Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and the Caucasus. Equating them with Russia is as silly as equating them with Afghanistan.

Latro
02-02-2016, 05:23 PM
I never said that MAGOG was found on ancient maps, I said it has been proven to be in Russia by the DISCOVERY OF ANCIENT MAPS, which is NOT false.

We've known for more than 2.500 years where Scythia is. Maybe you didn't.
Please explain how a map with Scythia on it proves that it is Magog.

It doesn't. All it does is show where Scythia is. Which we already knew.
You need to prove that Scythia is Magog. The map is immaterial.
(And also not archeological)

TriPolar
02-02-2016, 05:26 PM
I can see Magog from my house.
..

Latro
02-02-2016, 06:01 PM
Also.
That Wiki article is far more 'scholarly' than the article by this minister.
Do you think it scholarly to just omit other theories and parts of the bible that do not fit your interpretation?

Maybe you are being takin in by catchy words like ANCIENT, ARCHAEOLOGY, SCHOLAR and the like?

Look I'm not saying the Scythian theory is that far fetched. After all, the Kimmerians must have been quite a shock, rampaging through powerful, established empires. Plus the Scythians did defeat a Persian invasion.
Could well be that the author of this chapter had the Scythians in mind to threaten those who did not heed his words.
But there are more places where Gog and Magog are mentioned, or replaced, that do not fit the picture so neatly.

tomndebb
02-02-2016, 07:07 PM
The prophetic writings were made and verified by modern dating methods and archeological research and dating methods. They were not written after the fact. Show even one example of a written biblical prophesy that occurred after the fact.Every prophecy in the Book of Daniel. Various incidents in Daniel were written as tales in the Third century B.C.E. and the stories were compiled into a single work in the Second century B.C.E. It was compiled as if it had been written hundreds of years earlier, but it was not. So its predictions about Third and Second century events were simply efforts to make it appear that those recent events had been predicted earlier.

tomndebb
02-02-2016, 07:30 PM
You're willfully ignoring that the Sycthians are the same as MAGOG as evidenced by facts shown in that article that is a cited scholarly article. You wish to remain ignorant.

You made a false statement.
Magog is not on any map.
Besides that, that Magog would be the Scythians is just one fringe theory.
The wiki article you yourself linked to makes it all too clear that there are other, more believable, identifications.It is not accurate that the association of Magog with Scythia is "fringe." It is actually can be traced to an explicit statement by Josephus.

(Of course, relying on Josephus has its own problems. Prior to the statement by Josephus, (which was subsequently adopted by the majority of Jewish and Christian writers over the next couple of millennia--taking it out of fringe belief, but without actual evidence to support it), it had been identified with multiple other places in both Africa and western Asia. The reality is that the Ezekiel never identifies the location of Magog and that any chosen location is speculative.)

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 08:47 PM
I like how my posts enjoy links to scholarly articles and are scoffed at as "silly" by people who haven't posted a single shred of evidence to the contrary and rely solely upon their feelings without evidence as fact. It's even funnier when these same people belittle me for having faith as a Christian. These people exercise and display greater faith in their fact-less presuppositions than I do in my own opinions based on cited scholarly articles. No amount of evidence will be sufficient and no evidence will be solid enough for these who willfully choose to exercise their faith in place of science.

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 08:50 PM
Identifying Russia with the Scythians is as silly as saying that England is the same as the Roman Empire, because the southern part of Britain was part of the Roman Empire.

It's really, really silly. The Scythians vanished as a people. And Ancient Scythia covered what is now Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and the Caucasus. Equating them with Russia is as silly as equating them with Afghanistan.

Did you read the article at all? Are you basing your argument on belief?

The Scythians

We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18 The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near East in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukraine north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian Sea.

Herodotus describes them living in Scythia (i.e., the territory north of the Black Sea). He describes Scythia as a square, 20 days journey (360 miles) on a side. It encompassed the lower reaches of the Dniester, Bug, Dnieper, and Don Rivers where they flow into the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. 19

The Scythian language belonged to the Iranian family of the Indo-European languages.20 The Ossetian dialect of central Caucasus appears to be a survivor.21 The original area in which Iranian was spoken extended from the mid-Volga and the Don regions to the northern Urals and beyond. From here, Iranian-speaking tribes colonized Media, Parthia, Persia, Central Asia, and as far as the Chinese border.

In the 7th century B.C. the Scythians swept across the area, displacing the Cimmerians from the steppes of the Ukraine east of Dnieper River, who fled from them across the Caucasus.22 It is provocative that even the name "Caucasus" appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog's Fort."23

The hippomolgoi ("mare-milkers") mentioned in Homer's Iliad 24 were equestrian nomads of the northern steppes and several authorities also identified these with the Scythians. 25 [One of the delicacies I was presented with when I was being hosted by the Deputy Chairman of the Soviet Union was fermented horse milk! These traditions may have a deep history, indeed.]

18. It is interesting to notice how frequently a woman is linked with a serpent: Genesis 3; the legends surrounding the birth of Alexander the Great, etc.
19. B.A. Rybakov (Rus: Herodotus's Scythia ), Nauka, Moscow, 1979, p. 19.
20. See R. G. Kent, Old Persian, 2nd ed., American Oriental Society, New Haven CT, 1953, p. 6; J. Potratz, Die Skythen in Sudrussland , Raggi, Basel, 1963, p.17.
21. See "Scythian"(Rus: Great Soviet Encylopedia ), 3rd ed., 1979, vol 23, pp.259-260. Also, Herodotus 4.117, 4.108, 4.106.
22. Herodotus 4.12.
23. Dr. John Gill, A Commentary on the Old Testament, 1748.
24. Iliad, 13.5.
25. B.N. Grakov, Die Skythen , Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften, Berlin, 1980, p.4.

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 09:12 PM
Every prophecy in the Book of Daniel. Various incidents in Daniel were written as tales in the Third century B.C.E. and the stories were compiled into a single work in the Second century B.C.E. It was compiled as if it had been written hundreds of years earlier, but it was not. So its predictions about Third and Second century events were simply efforts to make it appear that those recent events had been predicted earlier.


http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2012/07/31/New-Light-on-the-Book-of-Daniel-from-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.aspx#Article

Ageranger361
02-02-2016, 09:20 PM
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2012/07/31/New-Light-on-the-Book-of-Daniel-from-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.aspx#Article


Subsequent to this, he stated that based on the Qumran manuscripts, “there can no longer be any possible reason for considering the book as a Maccabean product” (Harrison 1979:862). The most recent publications of Daniel manuscripts confirm this conclusion.

tomndebb
02-02-2016, 09:59 PM
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2012/07/31/New-Light-on-the-Book-of-Daniel-from-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.aspx#Article

Subsequent to this, he stated that based on the Qumran manuscripts, “there can no longer be any possible reason for considering the book as a Maccabean product” (Harrison 1979:862). The most recent publications of Daniel manuscripts confirm this conclusion.meh
At this juncture we need to make another point. According to current historical-critical opinion, the book of Daniel originated in its present form in the Antiochus Epiphanes crisis, that is, between 168/167–165/164 BC. It seems very difficult to perceive that one single desert community should have preserved such a significant number of Daniel manuscripts if this book had really been produced at so late a date. The large number of manuscripts in this community can be much better explained if one accepts an earlier origin of Daniel than the one proposed by the Maccabean hypothesis of historical-critical scholarship, which dates it to the second century BC.
His logic is flawed.
It is more likely that a newly created work would have more copies as it would be perceived as a "popular" work to be passed around while those books considered Scripture would tend to be limited to special scrolls maintained in religious houses.

Regardless of that argument, it remains true that there is no extra-scriptural work prior to 200 hundred B.C.E. that quotes any portion of Daniel. There is no list of books prior to 200 that mentions Daniel. Daniel uses words, particularly Persian words, that would not have been known at the time of the Babylonian Captivity which preceded the Persian overthrow of Babylon and further employs Greek words that were not even coined at the time of the Babylonian Captivity. (It would be similar to finding a 16th century manuscript in Russian referring to a Moog Synthesizer or referring to a guitar with the English word "axe.")

Your scholar is reaching (and omitting actual information) in order to defend a long-discredited belief.

DocCathode
02-02-2016, 10:29 PM
The following post contains minor witnessing


I believe in G-d. I feel His presence and guidance in my daily life. I wear a yarmulke. I eat kosher food. I do other Jewish stuff.

I also believe that the prophetic portion of Daniel is an ancient fraud. Tomndeb has already stated the reasons.

Captain Amazing
02-02-2016, 11:33 PM
As far as I know, the first person to make the Magog in Genesis the ancestor of the Scythians is Josephus. I've heard some speculation that the Gog in Ezekiel is Gyges of Lydia, but I don't know that the dates really line up.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 12:10 AM
meh
His logic is flawed.
It is more likely that a newly created work would have more copies as it would be perceived as a "popular" work to be passed around while those books considered Scripture would tend to be limited to special scrolls maintained in religious houses.

Regardless of that argument, it remains true that there is no extra-scriptural work prior to 200 hundred B.C.E. that quotes any portion of Daniel. There is no list of books prior to 200 that mentions Daniel. Daniel uses words, particularly Persian words, that would not have been known at the time of the Babylonian Captivity which preceded the Persian overthrow of Babylon and further employs Greek words that were not even coined at the time of the Babylonian Captivity. (It would be similar to finding a 16th century manuscript in Russian referring to a Moog Synthesizer or referring to a guitar with the English word "axe.")

Your scholar is reaching (and omitting actual information) in order to defend a long-discredited belief.

I think this author sufficiently addresses all the typical arguments for an early Danielic writing which you seem to be arguing one of, so I won't bother recreating the wheel here. Here's a link:

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/daniel-amos/authorship-of-daniel/

Gary Kumquat
02-03-2016, 12:51 AM
What I've done is ask for information that proves or disproves that Russia IS or IS NOT using lignostone in their hardware and whether lignostone would actually even be usable as military hardware. It's called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research?

What I've done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It's called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research?

Latro
02-03-2016, 03:34 AM
It is not accurate that the association of Magog with Scythia is "fringe."

Yes, you are right, I couldn't come up with a more appropriate word.



..snip...
It is provocative that even the name "Caucasus" appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog's Fort."23


All you are doing is saying "Look Scythians!!!"
The only link with Magog you give here is this very dubious etymology from 1748.

Linguistic studies have advanced quite a bit since the 1700's. Here is the modern entry from the online etymology dictionary:


Caucasus (n.)
mountain range between Europe and the Middle East, from Latin Caucasus, from Greek kaukasis, said by Pliny ("Natural History," book six, chap. XVII) to be from a Scythian word similar to kroy-khasis, literally "(the mountain) ice-shining, white with snow." But possibly from a Pelasgian root *kau- meaning "mountain."

Mijin
02-03-2016, 04:19 AM
You guys can sneer, but when the Russians start genetically engineering a leopard with seven heads and ten horns, you'll be crawling back to church while wailing and teeth-gnashing.

The Stainless Steel Rat
02-03-2016, 09:26 AM
You guys can sneer, but when the Russians start genetically engineering a leopard with seven heads and ten horns, you'll be crawling back to church while wailing and teeth-gnashing.

Given that they're Russians, they forget to install the teeth and the horns wil play "Dueschland Uber Alles..."

digs
02-03-2016, 10:12 AM
Excuse me, where can I hide my "Hi! My Name Is digs -- Biblical Scholar" nametag? It's making me feel dirty...


eta: As an "Assistant (to the) Minister", I firmly believe God is cracking up at us taking all this poetic/prophetic/metaphoric stuff seriously.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 11:32 AM
I think you need to check your Hermeneutics scale. It sounds like it is askew...

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 11:56 AM
Yes, you are right, I couldn't come up with a more appropriate word.

All you are doing is saying "Look Scythians!!!"
The only link with Magog you give here is this very dubious etymology from 1748.

Linguistic studies have advanced quite a bit since the 1700's. Here is the modern entry from the online etymology dictionary:

Yet again you've posted a rebuttal to a source cited by someone else, but have not presented any factual evidence to support your own case for an alternative locale or to support your assertion that the derivation of the word is incorrect. Can you present a citation for your source and your reasoning for ignoring the proper use of the word as an adjective?

Let me give you the proper definition of the etymology of the adjective word Caucuses which you seem to have intentionally ignored:

Caucasian (adj.)
1807, from Caucasus Mountains, between the Black and Caspian seas; applied to the "white" race 1795 (in German) by German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because its supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. (See Aryan).

And it's source link is here:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Caucasus


Here's a link to a map showing the area between the Black and Caspian Sea, north of the "Caucusus" mountain ranges. Funny, it's in modern day southern Russia...

http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 12:24 PM
The Septuagint (LXX) version translated the Old Testament from it's Original Hebrew ("Vorlage") was undertaken

- In the days of Ezra and Nehemia
-285-270 BC, 72 scholars at Alexandria (Three Centuries Prior to The Gospel Period)
- Primary quoted text in the New Testament

Antiochus IV Epiphanes (ca. 215–164 BCE) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees),

Daniel was part of that original OT translation into the LXX and therefore MUST predate the Maccabean era.

The Jews at this time (three centuries prior) accepted the OT, which included Daniel, as Canonical. For any practicing Jew who does not accept Daniel as written when it claims to be this presents a serious problem.

No other book is as validated by history than Daniel

332 BC: Alexanders conquest of Jerusalem:
The Priest Jaddua showed him references to himself in Daniel; because of this the city was spared. This is recorded by Josephus

R. Kodeway, 1899-1917, excavations of Nebuchadnezzar's palace, et al, Banquet hall found, 173' X 56', prominently referred to and described by Daniel in the famous "handwriting on the wall" account contains various explicit details that have been used to criticize Daniels account of history have since proven his accounts of history as accurate and require that Daniel be present as an eye witness in that era to have known about them.

Jesus quotes Daniel 3X and refers to him as Daniel the Prophet. For anyone claiming to be Christian and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, this should completely nail shut the argument that Daniel was not written when it claims to have been. It makes Christ a liar to do so. For some of you that is no problem, but to Christians, esp. those in this forum, It presents a serious problem.


NEXT....

Latro
02-03-2016, 12:40 PM
Yet again you've posted a rebuttal to a source cited by someone else, but have not presented any factual evidence to support your own case for an alternative locale or to support your assertion that the derivation of the word is incorrect. Can you present a citation for your source and your reasoning for ignoring the proper use of the word as an adjective?

Let me give you the proper definition of the etymology of the adjective word Caucuses which you seem to have intentionally ignored:

Caucasian (adj.)
1807, from Caucasus Mountains, between the Black and Caspian seas; applied to the "white" race 1795 (in German) by German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because its supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. (See Aryan).

And it's source link is here:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Caucasus


Here's a link to a map showing the area between the Black and Caspian Sea, north of the "Caucusus" mountain ranges. Funny, it's in modern day southern Russia...

http://www.generationaldynamics.com/ww2010/caucas5.gif

Yet again, your post is nothing else than "Look Caucasus!!"
Without anything linking it to Magog.

You even linked to the same sourse I quoted, that shows it has nothing to do with "Gog's fort".

Bryan Ekers
02-03-2016, 12:49 PM
Even assuming Daniel was written when Ageranger361 claims it was written, its value as prophecy is tenuous at best.

What is considered the gold standard example of biblical prophesy, in terms of accuracy, clarity and independent verifiability?

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 12:58 PM
Yet again, your post is nothing else than "Look Caucasus!!"
Without anything linking it to Magog.

You even linked to the same sourse I quoted, that shows it has nothing to do with "Gog's fort".

The Scythians

We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18 The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near East in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukraine north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian Sea.

Herodotus describes them living in Scythia (i.e., the territory north of the Black Sea). He describes Scythia as a square, 20 days journey (360 miles) on a side. It encompassed the lower reaches of the Dniester, Bug, Dnieper, and Don Rivers where they flow into the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. 19

The Scythian language belonged to the Iranian family of the Indo-European languages.20 The Ossetian dialect of central Caucasus appears to be a survivor.21 The original area in which Iranian was spoken extended from the mid-Volga and the Don regions to the northern Urals and beyond. From here, Iranian-speaking tribes colonized Media, Parthia, Persia, Central Asia, and as far as the Chinese border.

In the 7th century B.C. the Scythians swept across the area, displacing the Cimmerians from the steppes of the Ukraine east of Dnieper River, who fled from them across the Caucasus.22 It is provocative that even the name "Caucasus" appears to have been derived from Gog-hasan, or "Gog's Fort."23

The hippomolgoi ("mare-milkers") mentioned in Homer's Iliad 24 were equestrian nomads of the northern steppes and several authorities also identified these with the Scythians. 25 [One of the delicacies I was presented with when I was being hosted by the Deputy Chairman of the Soviet Union was fermented horse milk! These traditions may have a deep history, indeed.]

18. It is interesting to notice how frequently a woman is linked with a serpent: Genesis 3; the legends surrounding the birth of Alexander the Great, etc.
19. B.A. Rybakov (Rus: Herodotus's Scythia ), Nauka, Moscow, 1979, p. 19.
20. See R. G. Kent, Old Persian, 2nd ed., American Oriental Society, New Haven CT, 1953, p. 6; J. Potratz, Die Skythen in Sudrussland , Raggi, Basel, 1963, p.17.
21. See "Scythian"(Rus: Great Soviet Encylopedia ), 3rd ed., 1979, vol 23, pp.259-260. Also, Herodotus 4.117, 4.108, 4.106.
22. Herodotus 4.12.
23. Dr. John Gill, A Commentary on the Old Testament, 1748.
24. Iliad, 13.5.
26. B.N. Grakov, Die Skythen , Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften, Berlin, 1980, p.4.

Jonathan Chance
02-03-2016, 01:04 PM
What I've done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It's called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research?

While I get where you're coming from - the impossibility of proving a negative - I'd really prefer a less...graphic...means of illustrating the point.

No warning, not even guidance. Just a sort of best-practices comment.

tomndebb
02-03-2016, 01:11 PM
What I've done is ask for proof that you do not sexually abuse animals. It's called investigating the claim. Why do you hate research?Throwing out the first question to grab attention, while a bit crude, is acceptable.
Pursuing the question moves into the realm of harassment. You got his attention. You did not get the response you wanted.
Drop it.

[ /Moderating ]

ETA: That will teach me to get up and let the muddy dog in before hitting "Submit."

Latro
02-03-2016, 01:12 PM
Do you read?

Apparently you don't.
You seem a bit confused. You are supposed to show that Magog are the Scythians.
That was your claim, right? Magog = Russia.

You are not doing that.
The only evidence you presented is an amateur etymology of the name Caucasus from 1748.

You are just saying there were Scythians and there is a mountain range called Caucasus.
Nobody is disputing that part.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 01:17 PM
Even assuming Daniel was written when Ageranger361 claims it was written, its value as prophecy is tenuous at best.

What is considered the gold standard example of biblical prophesy, in terms of accuracy, clarity and independent verifiability?

Daniel 9:24-27 Daniel predicts that the Messiah would be killed in AD 33—over 500 years in advance. (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/jesus-and-messianic-prophecy/)

Daniel Roughly 600 B.C.:
The rest of the land (Judah) was taken over by Babylonia, as Jeremiah predicted. This was the remaining land to the south. All of the Jews were exiled. (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/)

Alexander the Great took over the Jews. This was predicted in the book of Daniel (Dan. 8), but it isn’t historically recorded in the Old Testament. This occurred during the intertestamental period (the time between the Old and New Testament). (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/)

Destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/AD70/Dan9.html)
also verified by Jesus in Matthew 24.

Bryan Ekers
02-03-2016, 01:25 PM
Daniel 9:24-27 Daniel predicts that the Messiah would be killed in AD 33—over 500 years in advance. (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/jesus-and-messianic-prophecy/)

Daniel Roughly 600 B.C.:
The rest of the land (Judah) was taken over by Babylonia, as Jeremiah predicted. This was the remaining land to the south. All of the Jews were exiled. (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/)

Alexander the Great took over the Jews. This was predicted in the book of Daniel (Dan. 8), but it isn’t historically recorded in the Old Testament. This occurred during the intertestamental period (the time between the Old and New Testament). (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/)

Destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. (http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/AD70/Dan9.html)
also verified by Jesus in Matthew 24.

I'll look these over when I'm at my home computer later, but at a glance, don't a few of them rely on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah? That seems a pretty bold assumption to me.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 01:30 PM
Apparently you don't.
You seem a bit confused. You are supposed to show that Magog are the Scythians.
That was your claim, right? Magog = Russia.

You are not doing that.
The only evidence you presented is an amateur etymology of the name Caucasus from 1748.

You are just saying there were Scythians and there is a mountain range called Caucasus.
Nobody is disputing that part.

Greek Designation of Magog as Scythians:
"We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18"

Direct Assignment by Hesiod:
Hesiod, ''the father of Greek didactic poetry,'' identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C. (Hesiods writings precede the Book of Ezekiel.)

Direct Assignment by the Greeks through Herodotus:
Herodotus of Harlicarnassus, known as the ''Father of History,'' wrote extensively about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, in the 5th century B.C. Flavius Josephus records that Magogians were called ''Scythians'' by the Greeks. Philo, in the 1st century, identifies Magog with southern Russia.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 01:40 PM
I'll look these over when I'm at my home computer later, but at a glance, don't a few of them rely on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah? That seems a pretty bold assumption to me.

Yes, but those are cited theologically to those on this forum whom identify themselves as either believers of "Jewish," or "Christian," faiths. This was included to show the presence of a problem for them in their own theological beliefs.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 01:51 PM
Herodotus describes them as living in the territory north of the Black Sea, and that they terrorized the southern steppes of Russia beginning in the 10th century BC. He supposed the word Scythian meant "father." Perhaps he was correct, as the name Scythian is a derivative of Ashkenaz, who was the father of the Scythians. Numerous archaeological discoveries have confirmed Herodotus' reports in general, and his Scythian accounts in particular.

He also wrote that "the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae (Magogites), but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes (Volga) river, and entered the land of Cimmeria." Historical records indicate that in the 7th century BC tribes of Scythians swept across the Caucasus mountains displacing the Cimmerians (Gomerites). Flavius Josephus, Jewish and Roman historian, continued with that reference in the 1st century AD, when he records that Magogites (Magogians) were called "Scythians" by the Greeks. He also recorded that "Magogia" was the Greek name for the ancient city of Scythia. Philo Judaeus (Philo of Alexandria), famous Greek and Jewish philosopher in the 1st century AD, also identified Magog with southern Russia.

Bryan Ekers
02-03-2016, 01:56 PM
Yes, but those are cited theologically to those on this forum whom identify themselves as either believers of "Jewish," or "Christian," faiths. This was included to show the presence of a problem for them in their own theological beliefs.

Then perhaps I should have made my earlier query more clear: what is the gold standard of biblical prophecy that one might use to convince someone who has not yet seen evidence that biblical prophecy actually exists?

Ravenman
02-03-2016, 02:03 PM
Ageranger -- let's say I conclusively prove that Russia is not using any wood laminates in its weapons systems. What are the biblical consequences of this?

Latro
02-03-2016, 02:11 PM
Greek Designation of Magog as Scythians:
"We know the descendants of Magog by their Greek designation as the Scythians (depicted in their legends as descending from Scythes , the youngest of the three sons of Heracles, from sleeping with a half viper and half woman). 18"

Direct Assignment by Hesiod:
Hesiod, ''the father of Greek didactic poetry,'' identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C. (Hesiods writings precede the Book of Ezekiel.)

Direct Assignment by the Greeks through Herodotus:
Herodotus of Harlicarnassus, known as the ''Father of History,'' wrote extensively about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, in the 5th century B.C. Flavius Josephus records that Magogians were called ''Scythians'' by the Greeks. Philo, in the 1st century, identifies Magog with southern Russia.

Thank you.

However, I can find no mention in Hesiodos nor Herodotos of any Magog. They just speak of the Scythians.

The Josephus reference is indeed there:

Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names. For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes, by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia, and all the Grecians, are derived. Thobel founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called. Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians.


I could not find any mention of Magog by Philo.

Could you please cite the passages about Magog in Philo, Herodotos and Hesiodos?

tomndebb
02-03-2016, 02:13 PM
I think this author sufficiently addresses all the typical arguments for an early Danielic writing which you seem to be arguing one of, so I won't bother recreating the wheel here. Here's a link:

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/daniel-amos/authorship-of-daniel/
I am really sorry that you find that article in any was persuasive.

If we deny Daniel’s authorship, then this places us in the uncomfortable position of calling this author a liar and a fraud.No. We note that the pre-Enlightenment texts of history, biography, and religious instruction used different criteria regarding declarations of fact and authorship.

Second, Jesus Christ believed that Daniel was a prophet and the historical author of this book. No, again. We see that Jesus of Nazareth accepted the Book of Daniel as prophetic, while not changing anything in regard to the previous point that authorship was treated with different rules at that time.

Third, Ezekiel—a contemporary prophet—believed in a historical Daniel. No. We see that Ezekiel was aware of a prophet named Daniel. The fact that we have no writings from the Daniel who was a contemporary of Ezekiel meant that his name was available to be applied to a later text. Ezekiel does not ever quote from the Book of Daniel, so there is no evidence that Ezekiel knew of any such book--only of a person named Daniel.

Fourth, Josephus—a first century Jewish and Roman historian—believed that Daniel was a prophet and a historical person.Finally, a potential piece of genuine evidence.
Unfortunately, what Josephus believed is not persuasive. The Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1120-alexander-the-great) notes that the story in Josephus is "fantastic" and noted the similar (and later) events that were probably conflated with the story of Alexander's trip to Jerusalem by the time that Josephus was writing. And the account of Josephus is not supported by any other author.

Fifth, the author of 1 Maccabees believed Daniel was a historical person.That someone in the second century happened to believe in the existence of a person about whom stories were told in the third century does not prove the existence of that person hundreds of years earlier. Lots of people grew up thinking that George Washington actually chopped down his father's cherry tree and owned up to it. That did not mean that the event happened. Lots of people still think that Columbus "proved" that the Earth was round against the opinions of the scholars of Europe, when that lie was only invented in the early 19th century.

Sixth, 1 Enoch cites Daniel. Someone from 150 writing a description of a couple of lines similar, not identical, to a description written within the previous 80 years and compiled roughly 20 years earlier is not exactly what one would consider evidence of events several hundred years earlier.

Seventh, historical evidence supports an early dating of Daniel.No. Historical evidence indicates that the author of Daniel was aware of history and chose to include bits of history in his story to make it appear older than it was.

Eighth, literary evidence supports an early dating of Daniel.This is silly. Literary evidence indicates the exact opposite. (Have you seen any references to a musician playing his axe in Shakespeare?)

Rochford's last three claims are all examples of special pleading that provide no genuine evidence for an earlier creation of the book:

He says that Daniel appears among the Kethuvim rather than among the Nevi'im because Daniel's career was not that of a prophet. (Leaving aside the earlier argument that Ezekiel identified someone named Daniel as a prophet), this argument is little more than rationalization with no evidence to support it.
He claims that Daniel would have known so much about the Maccabaean revolt because God inspired in him the information to write that history.
meh
(It seems that God might have spent more effort letting him know about the revolt of 67, but whatever.)
He claims that later theology has pervaded earlier books in the bible, but his examples are false. Angels appear throughout the Hebrew bible, but the way they are portrayed in Daniel does not match their portrayal in earlier works. The references to "resurrection" that Rochford cites do not refer to the same phenomenon of resurrection that appears in works of the second century and do not have the same meaning--he is playing word games. His reference to the Jesus/Messiah issue is really irrelevant. It is a Christian theological argument (that has its own problems), but it does not actually address the objection of anachronistic language and ideas.


You (and Rochford) are welcome to your beliefs, but they are simply not persuasive.

tomndebb
02-03-2016, 02:27 PM
Herodotus describes them as living in the territory north of the Black Sea, and that they terrorized the southern steppes of Russia beginning in the 10th century BC. He supposed the word Scythian meant "father." Perhaps he was correct, as the name Scythian is a derivative of Ashkenaz, who was the father of the Scythians. Numerous archaeological discoveries have confirmed Herodotus' reports in general, and his Scythian accounts in particular.With no reference by Herodotus to Magog, this is irrelevant. Lots of people in the nineteenth century tried to find associations between the Lost Tribes of Israel and the peoples of the Americas, but no such association existed, regardless of their beliefs.

He also wrote that "the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae (Magogites), but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes (Volga) river, and entered the land of Cimmeria." Historical records indicate that in the 7th century BC tribes of Scythians swept across the Caucasus mountains displacing the Cimmerians (Gomerites). Flavius Josephus, Jewish and Roman historian, continued with that reference in the 1st century AD, when he records that Magogites (Magogians) were called "Scythians" by the Greeks. He also recorded that "Magogia" was the Greek name for the ancient city of Scythia. Philo Judaeus (Philo of Alexandria), famous Greek and Jewish philosopher in the 1st century AD, also identified Magog with southern Russia.Again, people in the first century C.E. making claims about the origins of people hundreds of years earlier are not relevant unless you can identify an earlier association.

What you have is:
the presence of Scythians in what is now southern Russia;
one or two unsubstantiated claims from the first century identifying Scythians with Magog without any single reference to the Scythians as Magog from the tenth century B.C.E. to the first century C.E.
The claim of Josephus is as reliable as the claim of James Adair, (or of Joseph Smith), that the American Indians were the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel.

I'll grant you Scythians. You need to provide a better claim for Magog.

Lemur866
02-03-2016, 04:16 PM
Yes, there were people that we now call "Scythians". Yes, they lived in what is now part of Russia, as well as other places.

That doesn't make the Russians into Scythians.

You know that for a time the Moors invaded Spain, right? They lived in Spain. If someone made a prophecy that the Moors were going to attack Israel, would you interpret that prophecy to mean that Spain was going to attack Israel?

The Moors used to live in Spain, but the current Spanish people are not Moors. The Moorish kingdoms were conquered by Christians and the Moors were expelled or assimilated. Spain is not Moorish, despite the fact that Moorish kingdoms used to exist in the Iberian peninsula.

The fact that the Russian Federation currently exists on the same geographic region that the ancient Scythians used to live doesn't make them the same people, any more than Americans are the same as the Cherokee or the English are the same as the Romans. Lots of different people have lived on the central asian steppes, and the country most co-extensive with the former homeland of the Scythians is actually what is now Kazakhstan, not what is now Russia. If only you had posted this back when both Russia and Kazakhstan were both part of the Soviet Union!

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 04:45 PM
Then perhaps I should have made my earlier query more clear: what is the gold standard of biblical prophecy that one might use to convince someone who has not yet seen evidence that biblical prophecy actually exists?

I was writing those points to those who already have an established set of beliefs as Jews and Christians. Obviously, if you don't believe in Christ or the Prophets these points are meaningless to you and you should disregard them. However, if you are of the belief that Christ is truly the Messiah and Lord and Savior, or that the Prophets were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these prophesies, then it presents a problem that needs to be reconciled in your beliefs somehow, either by a change of beliefs or by some new revelation from the scripture.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 04:55 PM
Yes, there were people that we now call "Scythians". Yes, they lived in what is now part of Russia, as well as other places.

That doesn't make the Russians into Scythians.

You know that for a time the Moors invaded Spain, right? They lived in Spain. If someone made a prophecy that the Moors were going to attack Israel, would you interpret that prophecy to mean that Spain was going to attack Israel?

The Moors used to live in Spain, but the current Spanish people are not Moors. The Moorish kingdoms were conquered by Christians and the Moors were expelled or assimilated. Spain is not Moorish, despite the fact that Moorish kingdoms used to exist in the Iberian peninsula.

The fact that the Russian Federation currently exists on the same geographic region that the ancient Scythians used to live doesn't make them the same people, any more than Americans are the same as the Cherokee or the English are the same as the Romans. Lots of different people have lived on the central asian steppes, and the country most co-extensive with the former homeland of the Scythians is actually what is now Kazakhstan, not what is now Russia. If only you had posted this back when both Russia and Kazakhstan were both part of the Soviet Union!

IF the Bible is truly God's inspired word and it is from outside our space-time dimensions then utilizing the names of the ancestry (which we do not change) to delineate a specific locale (which almost never stay the same) is a sure way to nail the location down, but only many years later after the archaeological discoveries have been made proving the existence and location of those ancestral lineages. Jesus spoke in parables, not to make it easier to understand, but to make is more difficult because it is not for all to believe, only those whom he has called. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, He could easily just have named the exact person and ancestral line directly. He didn't do that for a reason. It was to seal the understandings and revelations up until it was time for them to be known.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 05:17 PM
The language of the book—part of which is Aramaic (2:4–7:28)—probably indicates a date of composition later than the Babylonian Exile (6th century bc). Numerous inaccuracies connected with the exilic period (no deportation occurred in 605 bc; Darius was a successor of Cyrus, not a predecessor; etc.) tend to confirm this judgment. (http://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Book-of-Daniel-Old-Testament)

Bryan Ekers
02-03-2016, 05:26 PM
I was writing those points to those who already have an established set of beliefs as Jews and Christians. Obviously, if you don't believe in Christ or the Prophets these points are meaningless to you and you should disregard them. However, if you are of the belief that Christ is truly the Messiah and Lord and Savior, or that the Prophets were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these prophesies, then it presents a problem that needs to be reconciled in your beliefs somehow, either by a change of beliefs or by some new revelation from the scripture.

So it all comes down to inconsistencies in scripture?


That's not exactly a shocking reveal.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 05:30 PM
Irrefutably Documented
To fully appreciate the remarkable significance of the following, it is essential to realize that the Book of Daniel, as part of the Old Testament, was translated into Greek prior to 270 b.c., several centuries before Christ was born. This is a well established fact of secular history.1

The Septuagint
After his conquest of the Babylonian Empire, Alexander the Great promoted the Greek language throughout the known world, and thus almost everyone - including the Jews - spoke Greek. Hebrew fell into disuse, being reserved primarily for ceremonial purposes (somewhat analogous to the use of Latin among Roman Catholics).

In order to make the Jewish Scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) available to the average Jewish reader, a project was undertaken under the sponsorship of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-246 b.c.) to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Seventy scholars were commissioned to complete this work and their result is known as the "Septuagint" ("70") translation.

(This is often abbreviated "LXX".)

The Book of Daniel is actually one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, historically and archaeologically, but this is a convenient short-cut for our purposes here.

It is critical to realize that the Book of Daniel existed in documented form almost three centuries before Christ was born.

Gabriel's Zinger

Daniel, originally deported as a teenager (now near the end of the Babylonian captivity), was reading in the Book of Jeremiah. He understood that the seventy years of servitude were almost over and he began to pray for his people.

The Angel Gabriel interrupted Daniel's prayer and gave him a four-verse prophecy that is unquestionably the most remarkable passage in the entire Bible: Daniel 9:24-27.

These four verses include the following segments:

9:24The Scope of the entire prophecy;
9:25The 69 Weeks;
9:26An Interval between the 69th and 70th Week;
9:27The 70th Week.

The Scope

9:24: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy Place."

The idiom of a "week" of years was common in Israel as a "sabbath for the land," in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year.2

It was their failure to obey these laws that led to God sending them into captivity under the Babylonians.3

When did the Messiah present Himself as a King? On one specific day, Jesus arranges it!

Note that the focus of this passage is upon "thy people and upon thy holy city," that is, upon Israel and Jerusalem. (It is not directed to the church.)

The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.

The First 69 Weeks
A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:
9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

This includes a mathematical prophecy. The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days.

In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


The Precision of Prophecy
When we examine the period between March 14, 445 b.c. and April 6, 32 a.d., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance? But there's more.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/46/#notes

As far as the citations you requested, I'm still looking. I'll post it asap.

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 06:11 PM
Septuagint, abbreviation Lxx, (http://www.britannica.com/topic/Septuagint)
The earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew, presumably made for the use of the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century bc and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century bc.

The Hebrew canon has three divisions: the Torah (Law), the Neviʾim (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings).

Ketuvim (http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ketuvim):
Divided into four sections, the Ketuvim include: poetical books (Psalms, Proverbs, and Job), the Megillot, or Scrolls (Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations of Jeremiah, Ecclesiastes, and Esther), prophecy (Daniel), and history (Ezra, Nehemiah, and I and II Chronicles).

Ageranger361
02-03-2016, 06:14 PM
So it all comes down to inconsistencies in scripture?


That's not exactly a shocking reveal.

How do you get to that argument from the statement that I made? Can you show the inconsistency in the scriptures that you are referring to?

Lemur866
02-03-2016, 06:19 PM
IF the Bible is truly God's inspired word and it is from outside our space-time dimensions then utilizing the names of the ancestry (which we do not change) to delineate a specific locale (which almost never stay the same) is a sure way to nail the location down, but only many years later after the archaeological discoveries have been made proving the existence and location of those ancestral lineages. Jesus spoke in parables, not to make it easier to understand, but to make is more difficult because it is not for all to believe, only those whom he has called. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, He could easily just have named the exact person and ancestral line directly. He didn't do that for a reason. It was to seal the understandings and revelations up until it was time for them to be known.

Seriously?

silenus
02-03-2016, 06:31 PM
I'm afraid so. No use arguing with him - he's a BELIEVER, and as such beyond logic and rational thought.

dropzone
02-03-2016, 07:15 PM
It is more likely that a newly created work would have more copies as it would be perceived as a "popular" work to be passed around while those books considered Scripture would tend to be limited to special scrolls maintained in religious houses.This. Daniel appears to have been the Batman of his day. Tres populaire. Which is why so much of it ended up in the Apocrypha. Bel and the Dragon? Ripping yarn. Ancestor of the Locked Room mystery. Revealed truth? Not according to most Bible scholars, including Luther and the guys who wrote the KJV.

Irrefutably Documented
To fully appreciate the remarkable significance of the following, it is essential to realize that the Book of Daniel, as part of the Old Testament, was translated into Greek prior to 270 b.c., several centuries before Christ was born. This is a well established fact of secular history.See above.

tomndebb
02-03-2016, 07:33 PM
Irrefutably Documented
To fully appreciate the remarkable significance of the following, it is essential to realize that the Book of Daniel, as part of the Old Testament, was translated into Greek prior to 270 b.c., several centuries before Christ was born. This is a well established fact of secular history.Not really.

It is true that the Septuagint was translated in the third century. However, several works and passages were added to the collection as the years went by. We have no copy of The Septuagint that dates to 270 B.C.E. and we do not have explicit dates for the additions.
Given that portions of Daniel are recognized as having been translated to Greek from Aramaic, there is no reason to believe that Daniel was translated with the other Hebrew books of the bible. The Septuagint also included the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Odes, including the Prayer of Manasseh, the Psalms of Solomon, Psalm 151, and additions to Esther.
Unless you are arguing that all those works were originally part of the Hebrew scriptures and were translated along with Daniel, your claim that Daniel was written and translated before 270 B.C.E. has no basis.

andros
02-03-2016, 07:52 PM
Jesus spoke in parables, not to make it easier to understand, but to make is more difficult because it is not for all to believe, only those whom he has called.

Horse apples. Metaphor is not difficult. You seriously believe that the Christ deliberately obfuscated His messages so that unbelievers wouldn't understand? The Prodigal Son is somehow so encoded and subtle that only the Chosen Few will understand? I'd almost call that arrant arrogance.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, He could easily just have named the exact person and ancestral line directly. He didn't do that for a reason. It was to seal the understandings and revelations up until it was time for them to be known.

And I'd absolutely call that arrogance, and hubris besides, if you are claiming that somehow it is the right time and that you now know the Mind of God. That you claim somehow to be possessed of knowledge and understanding that eludes the rest of God's children is the very height of arrogance and unbecoming of someone who claims to follow the footsteps of the Carpenter.

You, my brother, are being an extremely poor witness.

DWMarch
02-04-2016, 03:22 AM
The argument over which area of modern-day Russia corresponds to biblical Magog is pointless but I will accept it at face value. Magog is Russia, sure. Let's get that out of the way because there's another part to this prophecy that needs to be addressed.

Who makes weapons out of wood and epoxy? We're talking about Russia here, modern day Russia. The OP was supposing that "tanks, trucks, artillery, etc" have been manufactured out of this stuff for the past thirty years and no one knows about it. When the Soviet Union fell and their hardware could be bought for a handful of rubles no one got their hands on a Lignostone tank. The Afghan mujihideen never captured a Lignostone artillery piece. You know why? Because this fabled material is plywood and glue and it's not suitable for making weapons.

And the weapons made from this stuff are specifically enumerated in the verse as such: "the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears". That is an unambiguous list of exactly what will be burnt. Are handstaves a metaphor for multiple launch rocket systems? Are bucklers really T-72 main battle tanks made out of plywood? Ah but wait, you say. We're talking about after the apocalypse. Wood weapons will be all that is left! Except in that scenario we're forgetting that a T-72 tank is designed to survive a nuclear blast and plywood isn't!

And what scenario are we looking at here in which Russia brings a bunch of faux military equipment to Israel, Israel defeats it (because it's made out of plywood!) and then the modern nation of Irsrael decides to burn epoxied plywood as home heating fuel? Do you have any idea how much plywood it would take to heat Israel for seven years straight?

The prophecy still doesn't make sense even if we throw the apocalypse in there first. If we are postulating a hypothetical World War III we have to remember that Israel is a nuclear nation with many unfriendly neighbors. When the missiles start flying it is likely there will not be an Israel left when all is said and done. There will be a radioactive glass desert throughout the entire region (including "Magog") and no one will be fighting with swords made out of plywood because they will die from radiation exposure before they can walk from Russia to Israel.

Bryan Ekers
02-04-2016, 06:56 AM
How do you get to that argument from the statement that I made? Can you show the inconsistency in the scriptures that you are referring to?

At this point, I'm not sure who your intended audience is:

1. People who don't believe in biblical prophesy; or
2. People who believe in biblical prophesy, but are doing it wrong.

Kiber
02-04-2016, 08:24 AM
The argument over which area of modern-day Russia corresponds to biblical Magog is pointless but I will accept it at face value. Magog is Russia, sure. Let's get that out of the way because there's another part to this prophecy that needs to be addressed.

Who makes weapons out of wood and epoxy? We're talking about Russia here, modern day Russia. The OP was supposing that "tanks, trucks, artillery, etc" have been manufactured out of this stuff for the past thirty years and no one knows about it. When the Soviet Union fell and their hardware could be bought for a handful of rubles no one got their hands on a Lignostone tank. The Afghan mujihideen never captured a Lignostone artillery piece. You know why? Because this fabled material is plywood and glue and it's not suitable for making weapons.

And the weapons made from this stuff are specifically enumerated in the verse as such: "the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears". That is an unambiguous list of exactly what will be burnt. Are handstaves a metaphor for multiple launch rocket systems? Are bucklers really T-72 main battle tanks made out of plywood? Ah but wait, you say. We're talking about after the apocalypse. Wood weapons will be all that is left! Except in that scenario we're forgetting that a T-72 tank is designed to survive a nuclear blast and plywood isn't!

And what scenario are we looking at here in which Russia brings a bunch of faux military equipment to Israel, Israel defeats it (because it's made out of plywood!) and then the modern nation of Irsrael decides to burn epoxied plywood as home heating fuel? Do you have any idea how much plywood it would take to heat Israel for seven years straight?

The prophecy still doesn't make sense even if we throw the apocalypse in there first. If we are postulating a hypothetical World War III we have to remember that Israel is a nuclear nation with many unfriendly neighbors. When the missiles start flying it is likely there will not be an Israel left when all is said and done. There will be a radioactive glass desert throughout the entire region (including "Magog") and no one will be fighting with swords made out of plywood because they will die from radiation exposure before they can walk from Russia to Israel.


Loath as I am to jump into this I did want to share the following. Namely - I have been told that early versions of American ICBM MIRVs incorporated plywood in their design. It was explained to me as a weight / strength issue although I didn't get more details. But I was able to find this cite (http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features/a774/) which seems to back up my memory.

Given that - it's possible that Soviet MIRVs also used some wood for similar reasons.

I make no claims as to any of the religious stuff in this thread. And I'll leave it to others to interpret Soviet MIRVs as modern day swords and spears. I'm just interested in sharing a bit about the use of wood in a modern (or at least relatively modern) weapon systems.

The high speed can cause the missile to get very hot as it reenters the atmosphere. Ballistic warheads are protected by heatshields constructed of materials such as pyrolytic graphite, and in early missiles, thick plywood. Plywood approaches the strength per weight of carbon fiber/epoxy composites and chars slowly, protecting the missile.

On preview - this NASA site (https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/695726main_ComingHome-ebook.pdf) (Warning: PDF) claims that both China and the Soviets used wood for heatshields on some of their reentry vehicles. So maybe it's true.

Really Not All That Bright
02-04-2016, 10:35 AM
When we examine the period between March 14, 445 b.c. and April 6, 32 a.d., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!
This would be really impressive if either of those dates had any significance (and we don't make too much fuss about the assumptions required to pretend that 69 weeks is 173,880 days). But they don't. And though we won't, everyone else already has (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks).

DWMarch
02-04-2016, 03:14 PM
Loath as I am to jump into this I did want to share the following. Namely - I have been told that early versions of American ICBM MIRVs incorporated plywood in their design. It was explained to me as a weight / strength issue although I didn't get more details. But I was able to find this cite (http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features/a774/) which seems to back up my memory.

Given that - it's possible that Soviet MIRVs also used some wood for similar reasons.

I make no claims as to any of the religious stuff in this thread. And I'll leave it to others to interpret Soviet MIRVs as modern day swords and spears. I'm just interested in sharing a bit about the use of wood in a modern (or at least relatively modern) weapon systems.



On preview - this NASA site (https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/695726main_ComingHome-ebook.pdf) (Warning: PDF) claims that both China and the Soviets used wood for heatshields on some of their reentry vehicles. So maybe it's true.

But again, even if the MIRVs are made out of plywood (a MIRV, for the non-Clancy fans among us, is a Multiple Independently-targetable Reentry Vehicle, in other words a big missile with a bunch of nuclear warheads on it) we're talking about a scenario here in which enough of them land in Israel that they can be burnt as fuel for seven years. Somehow there are still cities in Israel in this scenario.

Alessan
02-04-2016, 05:53 PM
How cold do you think it gets here in Israel that you think we need to burn anything for home heating fuel? I mean, seriously. It's February, and I'm hanging around the house in boxer shorts.We have many problems in the Middle East, but "lack of home heating" isn't one for you.

In fact, you want me to believe a prophecy? Show me one that gives me air conditioning.

Lumpy
02-04-2016, 10:04 PM
For that matter, won't almost all eschatology be disproven once self-sufficient colonies in space are established, since they would be beyond any cataclysm limited to the Earth?

Really Not All That Bright
02-05-2016, 10:22 AM
In fact, you want me to believe a prophecy? Show me one that gives me air conditioning.
Alright, but it's going to be powered with Russian depleted uranium rounds.

Latro
02-05-2016, 10:29 AM
How cold do you think it gets here in Israel that you think we need to burn anything for home heating fuel?

I don't think the wood burning refers to fuel for heating but for cooking.

Rune
02-05-2016, 10:46 AM
One wonders if this dates from the Cold War, when the "commies" were the evil opposition of America (In God they Trust)?I think it's older than that. The Scytians are supposed to be the children of Magog or Gog, and when the times come there is a specific city in Dagestan through which they'll pour. Or else this is Islamic belief, I don't remember. Russian girls are to hot to be evil anyway, so obviously false.