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View Full Version : Russian military's use of Lignostone


jmeyers
09-23-2004, 04:50 PM
Lignostone is a composite material of laminated wood and synthetic epoxy. I believe it is manufactured in the Netherlands. There has been a rumor going around among fundamentalist Christians that Russia has been using this stuff to build tanks, trucks, artillery, etc. This rumor has been going around for at least 30 years. This would make it possible for the fulfillment of a prophecy in Ezekiel 39:9 that says (according to these Christians) that after Armageddon, Israel will burn Russian weapons for fuel for seven years. Has anyone any concrete info on Russian use of Lignostone?

W. Fikere Tomba
09-23-2004, 05:14 PM
Ezekiel 39 doesn't say anything about Russia, unless maybe some people think Russia is Magog or something. And Armageddon is not mentioned until Revelation. But Ezekiel does talk about burning weapons, and implies that they're being used for fuel:

Eze 39:9

And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Eze 39:10

So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down [any] out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Frankly, I find it hard to imagine the Russians using bows, arrows, handstaves, or spears of any material these days.

Ike Witt
09-23-2004, 05:33 PM
Frankly, I find it hard to imagine the Russians using bows, arrows, handstaves, or spears of any material these days.

Are you kidding? The Soviet era Russia never decomissioned anything AFAIK. They supposedly had T-34 tanks in storage well into the 1960's or 70's. They may still have a few pointy sticks squirrled away somewhere.

Granted I may be remembering this from a Tom Clancy book.

Ficer67
09-24-2004, 03:08 AM
I envisioned the war of armageddon to be so long and so fierce that we blow ourselves back to the stone-age. We actually shoot up all the factories that we use to produce weapons, leaving each soldier with only the means to produce bows and arrows, swords and shields.

Was it Einstein or Oppenhiemer who said that he did not know what WWIII would be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Ranchoth
09-24-2004, 03:58 AM
Frankly, I'd guess that if an apocalyptic world war had waged so long that the industrial infrastructure to create metal weapons had been destroyed, there wouldn't be a whole hell of a lot of trees left to harvest, either. (To say nothing of people to use the weapons.)


Ranchoth
(Well, at least it'd still be a step above beating people to death with your own severed limbs. That'd just be sad.)

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 04:18 AM
Was it Einstein or Oppenhiemer who said that he did not know what WWIII would be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

I've always heard it was Einstein. This (http://www.csmngt.com/einstein.htm) page supports that, and Snopes has no reference for the quote as dubious.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 04:21 AM
Also, welcome to the boards, W. Fikere Tomba. You're starting off an the right foot. :)

EvilGhandi
09-24-2004, 04:47 AM
As far as I know, Tanks artillery guns etc are made of steel. Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminium, and stuff.

Tacos are made of tortillas,beef, tomatos, lettuce and cheese.

Atoms are made of protons, electrons and bon bons.

While it against GQ rules to call a poster an idiot, I think it is still safe to call this an idiotic question.

EvilGhandi
09-24-2004, 05:02 AM
Sorry I forgot, we were in GQ.

I will now present evidence that the OP is, in fact Idiotic.

Assumes that there is a substance made of plywood and resin that can be made into a tank.

Assumes that the Netherlands is a major arms supplier to Russia.

Insinuates that Ikea may well be the greatest threat the world has ever known.

Aw hell with it im going to bed.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 07:05 AM
Sorry I forgot, we were in GQ.

I will now present evidence that the OP is, in fact Idiotic.Come one, there's no need for name-calling.

Assumes that there is a substance made of plywood and resin that can be made into a tank. Actually, you can build tanks out of plywood, but they probably would be less bullet-resistant than steel tanks. And since some composite materials are used to stop bullets (see kevlar vests), it's not unimaginable that the OP might think they could be used for some kind of armour plating.Assumes that the Netherlands is a major arms supplier to Russia.No, not really. Canada is not a major arms supplier to anyone these days, but nickel mined at Sudbury and Thompson is used by many countries in the fabrication of many weapons, and things like teapots and coins. Selling raw materials to Russia doesn't make the Netherlands arms suppliers, does it?

Insinuates that Ikea may well be the greatest threat the world has ever known. Not at all. Ikea is from Sweden, and they don't sell weapons, though some of their products use wood derivatives.

As well:Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminium, and stuff

And stuff like plywood (http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/plywood.htm). Wood is very strong (for its weight), very available in some parts of the world, and very easily machined into various shapes. Even modern airplanes use plywood sometimes; I have personally toured an aircraft (http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/K100.htm) factory where advanced composites were used for the airframe, but plywood for the propellor. I don't think Magnesium features heavily in aircraft construction, because of its flammability. Aluminum is a big player though.

None of this has any bearing on whether the Bible prophesizes the Russian army, though. That topic was addressed pretty well above, though it's still open whether the Russians are using Lignostone for anything.


Reading the website of the producer (www.lignostone.com) -- and admittedly my Dutch isn't very good yet -- it looks like it can be used for specialised tool and machinery applications. They appear to claim it has superior elastic and impact resistance, and other desireable mechanical properties. It's not unbelievable to me that it could supplant metal in certain specific applications where it might wear better than steel, require less lubrication, etc. The website shows it used in construction applications (http://www.lignostone.com/foto%27s/civil4.jpg) (click on "Civiele Techniek" in the menu list at left).

Here's some more information (http://www.roechling-haren.de/english/ligno_werkstoff.htm):LignostoneŽ is a laminated densified wood according to DIN 7707. It consists of beech veneers, which are joined together with thermosetting synthetic resins under pressure and heat. LignostoneŽ is characterized by the following properties:
Low specific weight
Good electrical insulation
Withstands high mechanical loading
Good slippage
Low- and high-temperature resistance
Resistance to abrasion and wear

And this PDF document (http://www.roechling-haren.de/shared_source/PDF-brochures/lignostone/Lignostone_Technische_Werte_103-4.pdf) lists the technical specifications -- they look pretty reasonable for a material used for "engineering applications". The tensile strength is about half the yield strength of steel. This site's trying to sell it for applications including thermal insulation for cryogenic pipes, electrical transformers, and structural components in tanker ships. Apparently this material has been produced for nearly a century, and is now commonly called "laminated densified wood".

So, it's quite possible that it's being used in some mechanical applications, possibly inculding weapons systems. It's possible the Russians use it, but if they do, I doubt it'd be the only country to do so. I can't find anything to say they do, or anything to suggest they're going to use their wooden weapons against Israel any time soon. Maybe the prophesy is suggesting the Dutch army is going to take a swing at kicking some Israeli Army butt?

Here's (http://www.textfiles.com/politics/russia.txt) an idea (http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/rusisrl.htm) of what may have prompted the OP's question. Googling "Russian military lignostone" gives many more examples, some of them twenty-five years old.

Mangetout
09-24-2004, 07:07 AM
The OP isn't subscribing to the ideas, just asking about their factual validity - nothing idiotic about that at all.

LignoStone is a compressed wood product. The Russians are not making tanks out of it, neither is anyone else (although I suppose it could be argued that there is a top secret project trying it somewhere, but the burden of proof would be upon the person making such a claim).

LignoStone has been used for tank supports - 'tank' here means a container in which liquid is transported or stored, but I suspect this distinction has just been ignored or unnoticed in the headlong rush to shoehorn modern, real-world meaning into Biblical prophecies.

Military use has been made of DuroStone, which is a product made by the same company; the fundies seem to be claiming this is a 'related product', ignoring the fact that it contains no wood and isn't particularly flammable. - Durostone is essentially extruded glass-reinforced plastic. Ho hum.

jmeyers
09-24-2004, 08:00 AM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. They believe that Ezekiel predicts a future invasion if Israel by Russia. They believe that Russia makes tanks out of Lignostone. Do a google search of +Russia +lignostone and you will see. There are millions of Americans who believe this stuff. All I want to do is get my facts straight before I refute their claims.

wolfstu
09-24-2004, 08:06 AM
Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia.

One wonders if this dates from the Cold War, when the "commies" were the evil opposition of America (In God they Trust)?

RiverRunner
09-24-2004, 12:14 PM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. They believe that Ezekiel predicts a future invasion if Israel by Russia. They believe that Russia makes tanks out of Lignostone.


Not true. Some certainly do, but by no means do most of them. I drive past Bob Jones University on the way home; I suppose I could stop and take a poll of the folks in the library.


RR

Ravenman
09-24-2004, 12:44 PM
Let me add to my OP: Yes, most fundamentalist Christians believe that Gog and Magog refer to Russia. Hijack: do fundamentalist Christians believe that the Bible contains references to the US of A? What is the Biblical code-name for America?

Ethilrist
09-24-2004, 01:06 PM
Given that they have to go through Georgia, Armenia, maybe Azerbajian, Turkey, perhaps Iran, either Syria & Lebanon or Iraq & Jordan, if the Russians start the war using biblical-era weapons, Israel might well win the final fight vs. the fourteen Russians left alive to cross the border into Israel. Assuming the other countries have no such compulsion to use pointed sticks.

So it could happen, but not because the Russians make their tanks out of wood.

xash
09-24-2004, 06:27 PM
While it against GQ rules to call a poster an idiot, I think it is still safe to call this an idiotic question.EvilGhandi, kindly refrain from making such statements in GQ.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

CarnalK
09-24-2004, 07:01 PM
The fact that most modern weapons/tanks run at high temperature and belch fire it would be unwise to build with a material that could be used as fuel.

Really, the idea is ridiculous on it's face.

Ale
09-24-2004, 07:47 PM
Given that they have to go through Georgia, Armenia, maybe Azerbajian, Turkey, perhaps Iran, either Syria & Lebanon or Iraq & Jordan, if the Russians start the war using biblical-era weapons, Israel might well win the final fight vs. the fourteen Russians left alive to cross the border into Israel. Assuming the other countries have no such compulsion to use pointed sticks.

So it could happen, but not because the Russians make their tanks out of wood.


That really cracked me up. :D

CarnalK
09-24-2004, 07:47 PM
Well to be more thorough I found this pdf file of a technical brochure on lignostone here (http://www.roechling-haren.de/shared_source/PDF-brochures/lignostone/Lignostone_Technische_Werte_103-4.pdf). It seems to list a few makes and 105 degrees C for dry lignostone seems to be the high end running temp.

So I'm guessing it'll burn. Maybe a more technical minded person can peruse and see of what use it would be in modern artillery?

Really Not All That Bright
09-24-2004, 08:07 PM
I don't think Magnesium features heavily in aircraft construction, because of its flammability.
Raw magnesium doesn't feature heavily in any kind of manufacturing- like you pointed out, it likes to catch fire.

It either has to be alloyed, or, in some cases, a ceramic (or at any rate non-magnesium) coating will be used to separate it from oxygen.

Tuckerfan
09-24-2004, 10:39 PM
Raw magnesium doesn't feature heavily in any kind of manufacturing- like you pointed out, it likes to catch fire.

It either has to be alloyed, or, in some cases, a ceramic (or at any rate non-magnesium) coating will be used to separate it from oxygen.
Even the alloys can be flammable and much research is being done to try and find an easy to make alloy with no danger of combusting.

A "wooden" tank is no more bizarre than the idea of building aircraft carriers out of ice, which the Allies seriously considered during WW II. (http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php)Pyke's logical conclusion was to build a behemoth: the H.M.S Habbakuk, he called it. Constructed from 40-foot blocks of ice, his Habbakuk would be 2,000 feet long, 300 feet wide, with walls 40 feet thick. Its interior would easily accommodate 200 Spitfires.AndFor a man who had had ice thrown into his bath, Winston Churchill was surprisingly receptive to the idea. After reading the formal War Cabinet report on the Habbakuk project, Churchill shot back a memo stamped "Most Secret" the next day, on 7 December 1942. "I attach the greatest importance to the prompt examination of these ideas," he wrote. "The advantages of a floating island or islands, even if only used as refueling depots for aircraft, are so dazzling that they do not need at the moment to be discussed."