I think I have to leave the USA.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Today started off pretty good. The kids were unusually well-behaved, I repaired the brakes on the Camry in under 30 minutes (even replaced a rotor!), some financial/inheritance related documents arrived in the mail so I’ll be able to renew my SD membership next April, lawn mower started on the first pull…you know, a busy day but like clockwork, too.

So as a reward for an incredibly healthy performance at lunch I figured I’d ruin it by giving the kids a treat. Their unanimous decision was for ice cream at McD’s. Totally aware of the health paradox I’d solicited, I acquiesced and loaded up the fam into the Camry and headed for the golden arches. We got there. And then my mind began to reel.

At noon today, my hometown demographic was fairly well represented: 3 Hispanic families and 4 batches of Honkeys including us (the Vietnamese contingent was noticeably absent). With the exception of my wife, who is a health Nazi in nursing school ALL the adults there were disturbingly obese. I’m packing about 30 extra pounds…just in case…but these people were SERIOUSLY obese. And their kids were so whacked out on media (4 were lost in hand-held video games) and sugar that my own rugrats (ages 4, 6 & 8) were embarrassed for them & refused to enter the playground until the monsters had left the building. The wife & I looked at each other and, with the mind meld that comes after 20+ years, agreed that we were on Mars. Had been for almost 40 years. Kerry vs. Bush? Who gives a rat’s ass which clown runs the circus, it’s the circus that makes the clowns. We agreed that we need to be in a different show.

So we started talking heritage. She’s 50% Czechoslovakian (Prague), 25% Irish 25% Dutch. I’m a total mongrel with a maximum component of 40% Irish (accumulated through a number of generations) but with 400 years of indiscriminate North American interbreeding to require a shout out to sundry Native American tribes, Russian, German Jew, Mongol, English, Welsh and a suspected contribution from Brazil—which is a whole ‘nother Oprah of ethnicity.

Short version: We can’t stay here. We’ve both spent (brief) time in Ireland and loved every minute of it. We have both sensed a magic in the ground there that we’ve only found in one spot in the US. We want to move there because unlike this place where we’ve been raised, it feels more like home to our souls.

But…how the hell does one make a living there?

[Julius Henry]

Looks (http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/ireland.html) like you and you're wife will have to pick somewhere else.

[Merkwurdigliebe]

I hear you man, and I have been thinking about the same thing.


But a word of warning.... The weather in Europe can really suck compared to America. But that's really not a problem, but Ireland can be pretty bad with reguards to the weather.


The bad thing about Europe is that the better the destination, the tougher the immigration and employment rules are. Its so hard to live in a Scandinavian country, because the standard of living is so high there. However, I think it would be much easier to go to a more southern country. You probably want to go somewhere they speak English though, right? You could always go to malta. Its on the Med and they speak english! Ever consider Australia or NZ? What about Canada?

No, but I don't know how much time you have spent in Ireland, but moving to another country isn't an easy thing. Even with no family in the US it gets difficult. There are times when you just wish you could just go driving somewhere and be alone. There are significant differences between Europeans and Americans in a lot of things.

But yes, the freakshow is scary, and it seems like we Americans are just becoming a bad parody of our former selves. Sure, the Europeans may have made fast food jokes in the early nineties, but have you seen the super-sized french fries? Its scary. So what can you do? Just live in America and teach your kids not to get involved in all of the stupid crap that goes on here? It is difficult. If you take them to a nice place they'll probably grow up to be much happier people. Ireland seems to be behind on the whole process of setting up barriers to inmigration. They have just started dealing with it, since they have been a poor country until very recently, since they joined the EU.

One of the great things about Europe is the fact that it is much more socially oriented and social activities are often emphasized. Leisure is taken seriously there. This can be annoying as an American at times, but its a little hypocritical to enjoy the leisure, but complain at others!

But the magic in the ground is just a typical thing for going to Europe for the first time "for me at least" because it seems like people there seem to be much more concerned about their fellow man. This seems to be true to a point, but after a little while it goes away.

I don't know your career or your wife's so its hard to say. What kind of job would you like? What kind of education do you have? Ireland has a lot of IT stuff going on now.

[Aeschines]

BTW, your "location"is quite funny. I just got the joke.

Anyhoo, I lived in Japan 8 years total and had the option of staying there indefinitely. I chose to go back to Indiana.

There are fat kids there, too, but there is also elbow room and a lower cost of living. I really don't think obesity is cause enough to become a refugee.

On the other hand, if you love another country enough, go and stay there out of love.

[ruadh]

But…how the hell does one make a living there?

We don't. We build our own mud huts and live off the potatoes we grow
:rolleyes:

[The Great Sun Jester]

We don't. We build our own mud huts and live off the potatoes we grow
:rolleyes:
STILL !? !? :eek: :confused:

Can't ya even get the friggin' leprechauns to help out some?

[Early Out]

I was recently doing some surfing, looking for information on emigrating to Canada, when I stumbled on a very funny comment from a Canadian official (can't find it again, alas). He said that sometimes, people from the U.S. discover that Canada has strict immigration controls only when they pull up to the border with all of their worldly possessions in a Ryder truck, and are turned away. A wonderful image! :D

Somehow, we in the U.S. operate under the assumption that we could, if so inclined (that includes you, Inigo!), pull up stakes and move to another country. We accept the idea that the U.S. doesn't let just anybody come live here, but feel almost hurt and offended when we learn that other countries aren't real thrilled about having us move in!

Other countries may allow you to immigrate if you have certain job skills that they're looking for, or if you're bringing a big, stinking heap of money to invest, but if you don't offer either of those things, they have no incentive to let you in.

[calm kiwi]

I hear you man, and I have been thinking about the same thing.


But a word of warning.... The weather in Europe can really suck compared to America. But that's really not a problem, but Ireland can be pretty bad with reguards to the weather.


The bad thing about Europe is that the better the destination, the tougher the immigration and employment rules are. Its so hard to live in a Scandinavian country, because the standard of living is so high there. However, I think it would be much easier to go to a more southern country. You probably want to go somewhere they speak English though, right? You could always go to malta. Its on the Med and they speak english! Ever consider Australia or NZ? What about Canada?

No, but I don't know how much time you have spent in Ireland, but moving to another country isn't an easy thing. Even with no family in the US it gets difficult. There are times when you just wish you could just go driving somewhere and be alone. There are significant differences between Europeans and Americans in a lot of things.


If you want somewhere with crap weather? Hey we are your country! Want somewhere hard to get into? Yep we are your country! Do we speak English? Yep, after a fashion. Different from Americans? Well we have KFC, NcD's, Burger King...........so Not so different :D.


Just offering alternatives. :)

[The Great Sun Jester]

Somehow, we in the U.S. operate under the assumption that we could, if so inclined (that includes you, Inigo!), pull up stakes and move to another country.
I'll thank you for letting me cling to the belief that Americans are revered and welcomed throughout the Civilized World and Australia. Actually, mom retired and moved to Tazmania. I suppose I could go for a visit, knock her off and retire there in her stead. Hmmmmmmm.......But I'd get dizzy being upside down all the time.

[Early Out]

Actually, mom retired and moved to Tazmania. I suppose I could go for a visit, knock her off and retire there in her stead.I'm surprised they let her in - many countries make it especially tough for retirees to immigrate, since they generally don't bring scads of money, and won't be adding any skills to the workforce, but will be demanding medical services.

I suppose she got in under an asylum program, since she was fleeing cruel treatment at the hands of her horrible son.

[Sublight]

Really? I'd heard Mexico was trying to encourage Americans to retire there.

[jjimm]

We’ve both spent (brief) time in Ireland and loved every minute of it. We have both sensed a magic in the ground there that we’ve only found in one spot in the US. We want to move there because unlike this place where we’ve been raised, it feels more like home to our souls.

But…how the hell does one make a living there?Perhaps I can give you my opinion.

I arrived here from England via Hong Kong in 1995, and have made my way reasonably well - had several jobs, bought a house, a car, got married, and so on.

What do you do for a living? IT is big business here. Ireland is now, I believe, the largest exporter of software in the world. Most of that is as the European headquarters of US firms (e.g. IBM, Google), or re-exporting software that has been localized into different languages. Personally, I do the marketing for a small independent software company, though I never intended to work in the industry - just sorta drifted into it. Most people I know seem to work in this industry or its peripheries, though I do know one American expat who works in an environmental consultancy for the government, and another who works in politics (you know who you are ;)). I didn't need any kind of work permit, so this may make things harder for you, unless you have a grandparent who was an Irish citizen, in which case you can become a citizen easily.

Working here is pretty cool. People work hard and play hard, but within a relaxed atmosphere. True to the stereotype, people do indeed drink a lot to socialize. The pub is truly the centre of many communities.

Ireland's climate is "mild" which means few extremes - it rarely snows and only gets below freezing a few weeks every year, but the tradeoff is the Atlantic winds, which bring rain, rain, rain and lots of cold wind, and even in the summer you only get a few warm and sunny days. The east coast gets it better than the west, but that's not saying much.

The west of Ireland is really special, and would be fantastic to live in, if you can put up with the awful weather most of the year. The difficulty as I perceive it is that if you want to live somewhere "magical", there's little work to be had. Most business is concentrated around Dublin, Cork, or Shannon, none of which are very pretty, though it is possible to commute from the countyside into the latter two cities, though more difficult to do if you live near Dublin, as the roads are terrible.

The midlands of Ireland are pretty dull. I'd call them the flyover counties if I ever flew over them. They're the drivethrough counties I guess. It's very rural, and there are few amenities.

We have most of the US fast food chains - BK, McD's, Subway, though not a lot of KFC for some reason. A lot of people here are fat, but not the US-style gross obesity that fascinates and repulses the rest of the world. More a sort of too-many-potatoes-and-pints-of-Guinness podginess.

And my God is it expensive. It's the most expensive country in the Eurozone, though salaries are a little higher too. Everything costs about double what you pay in the US. Taxes top out at 42% (though you get a tax-free allowance and a band at 20%) but without the benefits of free healthcare and comprehensive infrastructure that most European nations offer in return for this. For example, a simple visit to your doctor will cost you €40 (nearly €50) and you can't claim this on health insurance. Also, if you want to get across the country, despite how tiny it is, it takes forever. Driving the 120 miles from Dublin to Galway last weekend took me 4 hours, since there are hardly any freeways, and you have to go through little towns and villages.

I have a love/hate relationship with the place. As with everyhwere, the picture postcard image isn't really the truth. That said, I'm sure you'd find a warm welcome, as long as you don't mind constant negative comments about your president...

[Early Out]

Really? I'd heard Mexico was trying to encourage Americans to retire there.I believe that's because Mexico is relatively poor (by "first world" standards), so a retiree with a modest pension and some health insurance is a net economic gain to the country.

I've just been looking at Australian immigration (which includes Tasmania), and it appears that the only way a retiree can settle there is on a retirement visa (http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/temp_retire.htm), which is temporary (four years, with two-year renewals). I don't imagine they'd deny your renewals as long as you've been behaving yourself, and haven't become a drain on their social services in any way (like becoming destitute). The retiree must also agree not to use Australian Medicare or Social Security benefits.

[Early Out]

...I'm sure you'd find a warm welcome, as long as you don't mind constant negative comments about your president...Heck, we're Dopers! We're used to that. We're usually the ones making the same sorts of comments!

[jjimm]

Heck, we're Dopers! We're used to that. We're usually the ones making the same sorts of comments!I mention it because one of our American friends here is a Republican, and the poor guy has a simply awful time. I never ever talk about politics or current affairs with him.

[iwakura43]

But…how the hell does one make a living there?

Don't quote me, but I believe Ireland has a booming (read: horribly bureaucratic) property/casualty insurance industry:p

But where do you live now? If it's the midwest or the southwest, and you haven't tried the coast, you really might want to do some more investigating before taking the giant leap of emigration. For all the jokes made from people who haven't really been here, northern New Jersey/the metro NYC area has some beautiful areas and amazing cultural opportunities. And, especially in the city (all that walking I suppose) obesity isn't all that common a sight. I can also recommend certain suburbs of Boston for similar reasons. Boylston would be a lovely place to have a family.

[Neurotik]

That said, I'm sure you'd find a warm welcome, as long as you don't mind constant negative comments about your president...
And culture, and beer, and food, and history and pretty much everything.

Honestly, this is probably the main reason I couldn't move to the UK/Ireland area. I lived there for a while on a student visa while working in Parliament and the constant comments were just wearying. They were all meant in fun, and I have thick skin so I wasn't hurt or anything, but it was just a drag. Even when I went hiking in Wales, I stopped in a pub and was treated to a discussion (ie, lecture) by two Welsh painters (not artists, housepainters) for about an hour on why America was bad. Fortunately, they paid for my beers during that span so I didn't mind too much.

But it was just such an ease of mind to get back to the US and know I was constantly under the gun anymore, so to speak.

[enipla]

Nice post and well written Indgo Montoya...... But.....

Wait a minute here. Your packing an extra 30 pounds? And bitch about other people being seriously obese?

OK. There are folks that are hauling around an extra 100 pounds. I know that. But to me. An extra 30 counts as obese. Maybe not serious, but obese.

Colorado, and most of the mountain states have very healthy people living in them. And, from what I’ve seen, we take care of our selves, and our kids.

Had been for almost 40 years. Kerry vs. Bush? Who gives a rat’s ass which clown runs the circus, it’s the circus that makes the clowns. We agreed that we need to be in a different show.I gotta agree that the people in charge really aren’t in charge. But you have been here for 40 years? The US is very diverse. Lots of different places and people. You should check it out. But beware, if you come to Colorado, you may be one of the fat people you complained about.

[MLS]

So, it sounds like you've spent most if not all of your life in the same area, and now have decided that since there were obese people with whacked-out obnoxious children in a MacDonald's one day that you must leave the country?

Have you lived in other parts of the country? Tried staying away from fast food places?

Walk around Manhattan, and you'll see relatively few overweight people and lots of slinky-thin ones. Walking a lot and being in a fashion-conscious city make a difference. I've also noticed this in other upscale towns like Princeton.

I'd suggest doing more traveling within the U.S.; it's incredibly diverse.

[aaslatten]

You went to McDonald's and saw fat people? Wow, yeah, I can see how that would drive you from the country.

[jjimm]

Honestly, this is probably the main reason I couldn't move to the UK/Ireland area. I lived there for a while on a student visa while working in Parliament and the constant comments were just wearying. They were all meant in fun, and I have thick skin so I wasn't hurt or anything, but it was just a drag.Part of this seems to be cultural - "taking the piss" or "slagging" as it is here in Ireland, is a passtime. Everyone rags on everyone else: if you wear glasses you'll get ragged on for that, if you have red hair you'll get ragged on for that, and if you're American you'll get ragged on for that. Part of it is that many of your fellow countrymen tell us very loudly how great the US is, and we like to remind you that it ain't necessarily so. And part of it is also just plain rudeness and racism.

[Idlewild]

I'm surprised they let her in - many countries make it especially tough for retirees to immigrate, since they generally don't bring scads of money, and won't be adding any skills to the workforce, but will be demanding medical services.

I suppose she got in under an asylum program, since she was fleeing cruel treatment at the hands of her horrible son.

Tasmania is a pretty big retirement destination for Australians, because it's very peaceful and the cost of living is very low. I don't know how it is now, but at least in the last few decades, the population was shrinking, rather than growing. As Early Out has explained the kind of retirement visas available, I should think the Tasmanian community would welcome self-funding retirees from anywhere with open arms.

Great place to raise kids; horrid place for your kids to try to look for work once they're raised.

[Idlewild]

Ugh, I meant to reply to Inigo, that's what I get for spending the first 22 years of my life upside down I guess.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

It's only fair to point out that Central Europe and the British Isles are catching up to us in the obesity stakes. It isn't just an American problem, though it seems to be worse here than elsewere.

Cite. (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0408/feature3/images/mp_download.3.pdf")

[Neurotik]

Part of this seems to be cultural - "taking the piss" or "slagging" as it is here in Ireland, is a passtime. Everyone rags on everyone else: if you wear glasses you'll get ragged on for that, if you have red hair you'll get ragged on for that, and if you're American you'll get ragged on for that. Part of it is that many of your fellow countrymen tell us very loudly how great the US is, and we like to remind you that it ain't necessarily so. And part of it is also just plain rudeness and racism.
Well, taking the piss is not a big deal. My friends and I do it here all the time, and same with my friends in the UK.

It was the people I barely knew that was just irritating and tiring out. Although, I do understand about my fellow countrymen and the frustration you must get from that.

It's just a reason I don't think I'd move there, it didn't take away from the wonderful experience I had over there or from the friends I still have over there and talk to.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Somehow, we in the U.S. operate under the assumption that we could, if so inclined (that includes you, Inigo!), pull up stakes and move to another country. We accept the idea that the U.S. doesn't let just anybody come live here, but feel almost hurt and offended when we learn that other countries aren't real thrilled about having us move in!


But we take far more refugees and immigrants generally than [i]anyone[/] else. Our population is growing at rapid clip, and that growth is accounted for almost entirely by immigration (arriving immigrants and first-generation children). You might almost say we have a "right" to be disappointed when we'd like to emigrate but there's no place to go, since nobody comes close to us in that respect.

Depending on your skills and education though, Canada looks like a possible goal. Once just for grins I took the "acceptability test" on their immigration department's website, and found that I "passed" by a wide margin. Certainly it'd be easier to set yourself up with a job and home there, before departing the U.S. permanently.

[jjimm]

It was the people I barely knew that was just irritating and tiring out.Yeah, I can see that would get old very quickly.

[Early Out]

Depending on your skills and education though, Canada looks like a possible goal. Once just for grins I took the "acceptability test" on their immigration department's website, and found that I "passed" by a wide margin.I took early retirement a few years ago (hence one of the meanings of my username), and when I look at the self assessment web page (http://www.immigration.ca/assessment.asp) for Canada, there isn't even a starting category for me to click on. It's pretty clear they don't want my sorry ass up there!

[The Great Sun Jester]

I appreciate *all* the responses so far.

I grew up in Seattle (1967-1992) so it doesn't sound like the weather should be all that much of a problem--I'd be interested to know why IR doesn't export more dismal-spirited Rock & Roll than...oh, check that. ;)

Following Seattle I spent a few years each in Central Texas (bleah), Monterey, CA (Yeah!), Savannah, GA and now Denver, CO. I observe that folks are pretty much the same all over--Suburbanites, Countryfolk & Cityrats are pretty much all cut form their same respective bolts; maybe with varying idiosyncracy depending on how far from which ocean they live.

As for the weight thing, I draw a distinction between where I'm at now vs. the characatures that I encountered in a place I should not have been in the first place. My point was not to focus on that aspect so much as the overall culture which causes it: the excess consumption of garbage food, media, gasoline, housing, on & on & on. My family & I have distanced ourselves somewhat from the most disturbing aspects, but it's hard to not feel like a freak when I won't buy the new SUV every other year, I won't build my dietary intake around fast foods, I don't have cable (my kids don't even like TV! and have no desire to experience 6--Flags)...all that stuff for which I (we) are stereotyped simply don't apply to my desires nor my situation.

I don't hate this country, nor even most of the 49% of us who accidentally voted incorrectly in 2000. And I certainly am not one to judge others, although I still maintain a flexible opinion or two. But the trouble is, we don't belong here. What we value, a magical (a cheezy word, but it fits) "vibe" from the earth that we just can't find here except for in & around IRE's West Coast and the Columbia & Snake River valleys, and there's no way to make a living in the latter that appeals to us.

[jjimm]

But the trouble is, we don't belong here. What we value, a magical (a cheezy word, but it fits) "vibe" from the earth that we just can't find here except for in & around IRE's West Coast and the Columbia & Snake River valleys, and there's no way to make a living in the latter that appeals to us.You should visit Somerset in England too, then. I know the feeling you mean, and I personally get that in Somerset.

[astro]

You want to bolt the USA because you got freaked out by fat kids at McDonalds? Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Seriously.

[jjimm]

astro, did you not read Inigo's post two above yours, where he says that the fat kids are indicative of a wider malaise that he perceives?My point was not to focus on that aspect so much as the overall culture which causes it: the excess consumption of garbage food, media, gasoline, housing, on & on & on.

[The Great Sun Jester]

You want to bolt the USA because you got freaked out by fat kids at McDonalds? Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Seriously.
Absolutely not. I do not want to stuff the USA down my throat. Now, bolt from the USA...well, that's a little nearer the attitude, but I certainly am not entertaining such a violently sudden move. :wally

[enipla]

I don't hate this country, nor even most of the 49% of us who accidentally voted incorrectly in 2000. And I certainly am not one to judge others, although I still maintain a flexible opinion or two. But the trouble is, we don't belong here. What we value, a magical (a cheezy word, but it fits) "vibe" from the earth that we just can't find here except for in & around IRE's West Coast and the Columbia & Snake River valleys, and there's no way to make a living in the latter that appeals to us.Well wishes and good luck. I'm a very lucky man. I found my spot here in Colorado. I wish the same to you.

[Isosleepy]

Being an immigrant to the US, I cannot for the life of me understand those Americans who (either seriously or in jest) want to leave this country. Short of having FU money, in which case Monaco or a carribean island might be an option, the US are beyond a doubt the best place in the world to live. There's are reason we have beacoup immigration, and next to zero emigration.

One of the less immediatly apparent issues that can seriously mess with you when living somewhere else is a basic mindset thing. Best way I can explain it is that in the US, unless there's a law forbidding you to do something, you can do it.
In Europe, unless there's specific permission in custom and law for some action, you cannot do it. This may be a slight exaggeration, but there is definitely a higher level of freedom in the US.

Maybe you should just take your kids to eat at Baja fresh. All fresh ingredients, plenty of less-than-six-hundred-calories options on the menu... In Ireland, with your 30 extra lbs, you'd be just another lardass trying to figure out where you have to register for what this week. Oh, and they have Mickey D's there too. Everywhere.

[msmith537]

You know the funny thing about the US is that it is such a big and diverse place, you don't have to leave the country to live a different lifestyle. Seattle or Vermont are very nice and tend to be more health conscious. Major cities like New York, Chicago, Boston or LA tend to be more sophisticated and they are also very different from each other. You might want to try somewhere else in the US before you up and move to someplace where YOU will be the fat American.

[Xerxes]

Best way I can explain it is that in the US, unless there's a law forbidding you to do something, you can do it.
In Europe, unless there's specific permission in custom and law for some action, you cannot do it. This may be a slight exaggeration, but there is definitely a higher level of freedom in the US.

Err, cite? Not being snarky, but it's my perception that there are not too many major differences between the US and this part of Europe (the UK) in terms of general freedoms. I'm not including guns, obviously, because that's a completely different debate.

[jjimm]

In Europe, unless there's specific permission in custom and law for some action, you cannot do it. This may be a slight exaggeration, but there is definitely a higher level of freedom in the US.Slight? "Complete" would be more accurate. I don't know where you're from, and obviously it differs a bit from place to place, and beaurocracy in, say, Italy is legendary, but I have never encountered this. Daily life in Ireland and the UK, the two countries where I've lived in Europe, is very similar to that in the US, where I've also lived. You do what you want unless you're prohibited by law (and in Ireland, there's a relaxed attitude to that too, or at least there was before this particular government).

[The Flying Dutchman]

Grass does seem to be greener on the other side of the fence. I recall fondly my experience briefly living in a rural setting on the east coast of England.

You don't have to go to McDonald's you know. There are many fine restaurants in the USA. Course they may be more expensive but one should put there money where their mouth is.

[amarone]

One of the less immediatly apparent issues that can seriously mess with you when living somewhere else is a basic mindset thing. Best way I can explain it is that in the US, unless there's a law forbidding you to do something, you can do it.
In Europe, unless there's specific permission in custom and law for some action, you cannot do it. This may be a slight exaggeration, but there is definitely a higher level of freedom in the US.
I'm going to join the chorus of people objecting to this. I'm a Brit who has lived in the US for 10 years. I find no higher level of freedom in the US. If anything, I feel that government can be more intrusive in the US as local government crawls all over what you can and cannot do on your own property, for example my county specifies a maximum length of the grass on my lawn.

[Chefguy]

It sounds like you're experiencing the same flight reflex that hits me from time to time. The news provides sensory overload, and triggers your gag reflex. You feel like if you have to look at one more flying monkey running for office ,you'll just get out the old sniper rifle and climb up into a tower somewhere. But when I start thinking that maybe a villa in Tuscany is the answer, I realize that every place has its problems, and that trying to escape one set by running to another is pointless. What happens when the novelty wears off and I realize that decent medical care is spotty and I don't speak the language? How do I manage the affairs I leave behind in the U.S.?

I combat it all by trying to shut it all off for extended periods. I don't watch the news or read the papers for a week or two, which provides blessed relief. I NEVER go to fast food joints or chain restaurants. At some point, I hope to stick my head in the sand and just leave it there, if the Ms. will let me.

[DMark]

No matter what country you live in, or what part of the country you live in, you can find good and bad.

I lived in Germany for 14 years, loved it. However, the weather sucks big time, prices are ridiculous, years of wurst and beer do take a toll on the German waistline...but on the flip side, they are less television oriented, the kids are more eager to go outside and play.

I also grew up in a small town in Illinois. If I had to live there now, I would go stark raving mad. So - give me a large city, pretty much anywhere in the US or Europe and I can do quite nicely, thank you.

You need to find your niche, and from your brief comments, maybe you should find someplace more condusive to outdoor activities for your entire family.

Oh, and as far as getting ragged on in foreign countries - hell, all I have to do is go to my local redneck bar and I can get a lot worse. Plus - perhaps now you know how it feels for some 25 year old German kid to go travelling anywhere in the world and have some drunk rant about Nazis in his ear at the local bar. Actually, the heated debates I had travelling in Europe were usually quite entertaining - and as others have mentioned, even the biggest critics of US policy were the ones eager to pay for my bar bill and get a chance to vent and maybe disprove some myths, or verify the truths. And over the years, I heard quite a few doozies about the USA that were considered "fact" by the local populace.

So - flee if you will, and I am a big fan of foreign travel and adventure - but make sure you are moving forward, and not just running away. There is a difference.

[kelly5078]

I've got a bad case of wanting to get the hell out, but not because of obesity. I'm thin. Wife and kids are thinner.

Anyway, because of some really nasty stuff that's happened lately, and that I don't want to go into, I'm getting the impression that in the US, if you don't watch your ass every second and keep your nose cleaner than a surgeon's hands, this country is out to get you. Seems like our internal attitude towards our citizens is right in keeping with the Project or the New American Century. So I'm thinking maybe Canada would be a bit more genteel. Or Costa Rica, for that matter.

But maybe this is just because I live in Texas, where the attitude toward just about everything is "Lock 'em up and forget about it." It would probably be a lot easier if there were a better place within the US than the Gulag state. Anybody got any ideas along these lines (please don't say Vermont; I can't afford it)? For that matter, where are places not to be. Seems like Virginia, Florida, and Arizona are about as fascist as Texas.

This is probably an incoherent post, but I'm fairly distraught.

[MLS]

I'm sure I'll be castigated for being naive, but I really don't see the opressiveness that some, like kelly5078, see. Maybe it's being in the great Garden State. We have a modest house at the end of an ordinary street. Nobody much tells us what to do. The young person in our home is considerate of the neighbors when she has a party, but nobody tries to tell us how to live. We don't have to "watch our ass every second." I am trying to imagine what we could be wanting to do that would cause the big bad government to intrude on us, and I sure don't feel like anybody's out to get us. 'Course we don't especially want to deal drugs or keep dangerous animals on our property or fill the yard with old household appliances. Not that I'm saying kelly or anyone else here does.

I also agree with chefguy that sometimes for one's own sanity it's necessary to just turn off the t.v. and ignore the news for a while.

[FilmGeek]

... but it's hard to not feel like a freak when I won't buy the new SUV every other year, I won't build my dietary intake around fast foods, I don't have cable (my kids don't even like TV! and have no desire to experience 6--Flags)...all that stuff for which I (we) are stereotyped simply don't apply to my desires nor my situation...

You don't like the stereotype of Americans that the media perpetrates, but you feel like a "freak" because you don't buy an SUV?

I think the problem is much more about you and a not about America at all.

I'm different and people don't like it so I wanna leave...

Being different. How hard is that? If someone actually gives a crap that you don't have an SUV (and this isn't just you projecting what you see on TV), WHO CARES?? Why does that person have any bearing on your life or how you live it?

[Ellis Dee]

Anybody got any ideas along these lines (please don't say Vermont; I can't afford it)? For that matter, where are places not to be. Seems like Virginia, Florida, and Arizona are about as fascist as Texas.North. If Vermont is too expensive, Maine and New Hampshire are similar but cheaper. Maybe Washington state.

I have never heard a bad word about Minnesota, and I've known people both from there and who moved there and never left. But that's mostly the Minneapolis area, which (from what I understand) is not the most expensive city to live in, but being a city is not as cheap as the sticks.

[Sublight]

Being different. How hard is that?
Well, now that the Department of Homeland Security has declared that 'being different' is sufficient cause for a search and wiretap...

[Isosleepy]

Err, cite? Not being snarky, but it's my perception that there are not too many major differences between the US and this part of Europe (the UK) in terms of general freedoms. I'm not including guns, obviously, because that's a completely different debate.

This is IMHO, so I don't need no stinkin' cite! :D
Seriously, that is just what it is, MHO. I've lived (grown up in) several western European countries (Mainly the Netherlands and Germany), and have lived in the US for about 15 years now. To me, the fundamental difference is the one I described. Other than that, the differences are minimal: Holland especially is looking more and more like the US, the TV is not that different, music largely the same. But the reason they would have to threaten grievous bodily harm before I'd move back there is that the place makes me feel confined, and I feel restricted in what I can and cannot do. (for example, you can shop for groceries after 5 pm now - and that's a fairly recent improvement- but you have to go to a special store Asinine.
The concept that a citizen has to register with the local government, and any changes had better be reported promptly - that would bother the sh*t out of me. For starters. And I'm not the only one, there are more Dutchies moving Stateside than vice-versa, and if expressed in percentage of respective populations,.

[Ashes, Ashes]

If you decided to leave and it didn't work out, would you not be able to return? Would it scar your children, ruin your marriage, destroy you financially? If the risks seem reasonable compared to the gains, then go. Hopefully we'll all still be here when/if you come back.

My parents didn't like our local schools and packed my sister and I off to Mexico. It's not that the schools in Mexico are perfect, or that the local schools were horrible, but what Mexico could provide hit more items on their list of desirable attributes (as you seem to feel with Ireland vs. US). It was tough to go and tough to return, eventually, but both were surmountable with support and understanding. I'm grateful every day for the education I received, not just in school but culturally as well.

Plus, I'm much happier now that I've cut back my news media to a daily paper and occassional magazine. Shopping at WalMart can make you want to jump ship, too. Them people ain't right.

[TitoBenito]

quitters. :p

[Muffin]

. . . I have never heard a bad word about Minnesota . . . ..

Consider Duluth or Grand Marais in North-eastern Minnesota, or Ashland in northern Wisconsin. These are fairly progressive communities.

Ah, what am I saying. Forget the above, and move to Canada where we are sane.

[Hostile Dialect]

I'll just note here that I've had that connection to the earth in Chicago, Minneapolis and, to some extent, Omaha. I like living in Tucson and would recommend that or a big, health-conscious city such as LA, Chicago or New York (or San Diego, where I lived for the last 7 years--not too much to do between the ages of 18 and 40, but a great place to live--most people are shallow there, though, and this is probably true in LA as well). I always liked Baltimore, but I haven't been there since I was little and lived between Baltimore and DC.

Either way, good luck. I would seriously consider moving to another country but in all likelihood would probably be happier in Chicago--I've only been there once, but I definitely got the feeling that I would love my life if I lived there.

[Hostile Dialect]

But maybe this is just because I live in Texas, where the attitude toward just about everything is "Lock 'em up and forget about it." It would probably be a lot easier if there were a better place within the US than the Gulag state. Anybody got any ideas along these lines (please don't say Vermont; I can't afford it)? For that matter, where are places not to be. Seems like Virginia, Florida, and Arizona are about as fascist as Texas.

This is probably an incoherent post, but I'm fairly distraught.

(Bolding mine)

I can't blame you at all for feeling the way you do.

And Arizona is conservative, but it's getting more progressive. Retro vs. Metro (http://www.retrovsmetro.org/) recently changed our status from 'Retro' (backwards) to 'Metro' (progressive). Tucson seems pretty liberal and progressive, and it really doesn't get much more progressive than Minnesota. California is up there, and it's looking like Washington is too.

Best of luck either way.