View Full Version : Hey, ARG220! Over here!
ARG220, in the Maybe hell's cool thread, you wrote:
Well, let's just call Mormonism a "false religion."
Let's not. They have their beliefs and you have yours. Who are you to decide that their beliefs are wrong? What makes your interpretation of the bible the one-and-only "true" one? Did you miss the page in the Bible which tells you: "Judge not, lest ye be judged?"
Since you're throwing rocks at other religions, I'll hold up a target for you. I'm a practicing Pagan-- altar, candles, sacred dagger, the whole bit. Tell me exactly why you think I'll end up in your hell. I'm interested to hear it-- I haven't had a good laugh in days.
Does only ARG get to post here?
I am a little confused about something... doesn't it seem logical that if someone is deeply religious, no matter WHAT their religion, that it follows that they must believe that their religion is the only "true" one? Because if they dont' believe that, why would they embrace their religion in the first place? So ragging people for believing their religions are true seems to be something of a wasted exercise.
Speaking of religions, I heard a horrifying (yet not entirely surprising quote) from a Muslim woman last night on "The People's Century" on PBS (Great series, btw). She said something to the effect of: "The prophet tells us that if you see something is wrong, you must FIRST (my emphasis) try to destory it by force. Then, if that doesn't work, you must speak out against it."
Wow...shoot first and ask questions later, directly from the Prophet. Scary, Debbie.
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
I've been following the whole ARG v. Heathens case for awhile now.
I don't even know why anyone bothers trying to engage him in any dialogue whatsoever. Even a Furby™ changes its tune once in a while.
Stoidela asked:
[D]oesn't it seem logical that if someone is deeply religious, no matter WHAT their religion, that it follows that they must believe that their religion is the only "true" one? Because if they dont' believe that, why would they embrace their religion in the first place?
No, not every religious person believes that, though many do. Unitarians, for example, believe in freedom of conscience. We (yes, I'm one) believe in a person's ability to discover truth for him/herself. That means your religion isn't necessarily wrong. You may just see it differently than I do. There are Christians, Pagans, Jews, and even atheists who are Unitarians. And all are religious and devout.
The purpose of religion isn't to be the winners of some pep rally. And, contrary to much of human history, it isn't to kill everyone who disagrees with you either. Religion is here to celebrate our spiritual nature, to find others whom we can relate to spiritually, and to find purpose in our lives.
Wanna know more about Unitarianism? Click here (http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/unitarian-universalism/newsgroup-faq/faq-doc-12.html).
Awaiting ARG220's scorn,
Your Quadell
Hey AuraSeer, catch me online some evening to chat, would you? I'm very interested in your perspective -- have distinct pagan leanings myself (not surprising for an Irish Catholic ;)), and would love to talk.
-Melin
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Phenomenal woman
Bitch Corporate Lawyer
That's me
I dunno. I got bored and wandered away.
Despite how I may have come across, I really don't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. I can only judge a person based on actions and statements, "beliefs" are invisible to me. Prideful ignorance and intolerance sometimes get a rise out of me, if I'm in the mood.
Oh well, Faire season is almost here. The Girls have made me promise to not wear the kilt this year. I love embarassing my offspring...
Must be a free-association night...
Earlier today, I typed out a long and beautiful post that took me over an hour to finish. Then when I went to push the "Submit Reply" button, the computer crashed! Needless to say, I was quite upset. Come to think of it, I don't know why I'm telling you any of this. I hate this computer. Anyway.
Auraseer: It's not lighting candles, and doing pagan rituals that sends you to hell. Or at least, it's not those things specifically.
All humans sin. And all humans are NOT basically good. All of us are basically BAD. (Including me) What saves us all from the flames of hell is the undying grace of Jesus Christ. HE is our sacrifice, and payment for sin.
There are not specific "damning sins." Sin is sin, is sin. Whether it's murder, or telling a "little white lie." Now, all people who go to hell, go there because of one thing: The presence of sin in their lives.
But since all of us sin, how are we supposed to get to heaven? You guessed it. The answer is Jesus. No matter what you've done, no matter who you are, or where you came from, He COVERS your sin, if you allow Him to. Because when it comes time for Christians to be judged by God, He sees the blood of Jesus over our lives, and the sin is hidden. That is how we can enter the kingdom of heaven. By the power of the blood of Jesus.
Did you laugh at that Auraseer? I kind of doubt it. And if Snarkberry is reading this, then maybe we'll have our Mormons discussion some other time. That's basically another thread in the making anyway, right?
Oh, BTW, I have never considered this as "Arg v. Heathens." I am not against any of you. I just want to help the lost become found, and allow the blind to see. (With God's help of course) ;)
Adam
Arg:
What was the point of God setting it up like that? Why did he create the tree of knowledge for Adam and Eve to be tempted by in the first place? Core reason, please.
Because if you examine it, it reveals a jealous, egotistical, narcissistic god. A mindfucker, to be brutally plain. If he were the all-loving sweetie-pie you seem to think he is, he wouldn't have set it up like that in the first place.
Oh, and what about all the folks that came between Adam and Eve and Jesus? Since they didn't have the blood of Jesus to hide their sins, were they just condemned at birth? Now THAT's a loving diety!
And finally...why torment Jesus? Why did Jesus have to suffer so much in order to redeem us? Why couldn't he have been our redeemer without the torment and suffering?
Hmmm?
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
Earlier today, I typed out a long and beautiful post that took me over an hour to finish. Then when I went to push the "Submit Reply" button, the computer crashed! Needless to say, I was quite upset.
Perhaps that all-mighty God of yours who's everywhere and sees everything is trying to tell you something; say, for example, "SHADDUP ALREADY!"
I knew you wouldn't see it as Arg v. Heathens. That's part of what I meant when I said it.
ARG220 wrote:
And if Snarkberry is reading this, then maybe we'll have our Mormons discussion some other time. That's basically another thread in the making anyway, right?
Don't count on it, Adam. Life's too short to spend my time arguing with a brick wall. You believe what you wish about Mormons, mkay? I'm done with you. :D
Gee, that was rude of me. I'm sorry, Adam. I've had a bad couple of days and here I go taking it out on you. Sorry.
::sniffles:: Our baby is growing up.
Hell, Snark, I was about to applaud till you came back with the apology. This is the PIT, fer cryin out loud, son.
Bill, Bill, Bill, . . .
This is the Barbecue Pit. A simple statement of fact is never to a reason to apologize. (And unless you truly enjoy arguing with a brick wall who worships a monster (as several people on these threads obviously do), your choice of having no more discussions with Adam is the correct one.)
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Tom~
I don't intend to argue religion any more with Adam, but I don't want to give offense either.
To Adam: if you are truly interested in learning (not arguing) about the LDS religion, the missionaries are in the phone book, and I already gave you the official web site. If you want to argue, you'll have to do it with someone other than me. In spite of this being the BBQ Pit, I wish you well.
What was the point of God setting it up like that? Why did he create the
tree of knowledge for Adam and Eve to be tempted by in the first place?
Core reason, please.
I don't know why God created that tree Stoid. Why did He create birds, and trees, and little fishies? Maybe because they look pretty, I'm not exactly sure. That's not really the point. Satan tempted Eve, while assuming the form of a serpent. (Come now, I'm sure you've heard about this.) Adam didn't have to sin. God didn't "set it up" that way. But since he did, he pretty much made life very difficult for the rest of us. By disobeying God, Adam and Eve brought sin into a sinless world. Thus the world began as we know it. Where man is sinful, and we need some form of atonement for our sins. (i.e. sacrificial animals for the Old Testement, and Jesus for everybody who came after Him.)
Oh, and what about all the folks that came between Adam and Eve and
Jesus? Since they didn't have the blood of Jesus to hide their sins,
were they just condemned at birth? Now THAT's a loving diety!
The Israelites in the OT needed some form of atonement for their sins. And for that they used animals, usually a sheep. (I think) The blood of those innocent animals covered their sins. This is why Jesus is commonly reffered to as, "The Lamb of God." Because He was like an innocent lamb being led to sacrifice for us.
And finally...why torment Jesus? Why did Jesus have to suffer so much in
order to redeem us? Why couldn't he have been our redeemer without the
torment and suffering?
Jesus Himself actually struggled with this too Stoidela. When He was praying to God just before His arrest, Jesus asked God if there was another way around His crucifixion. Jesus didn't want to suffer anymore than you or I would have wanted to. But above all, He knew that He was destined to die for our sins.
But why did He have to suffer, you ask? "But He was pierced for our trangressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:5
Hopefully I have answered all your questions Stoidela. Could you do me a favor though? I know you don't believe in God like I do, but could you show respect and not use the "F" word when reffering to Him?
And Bill: (Snarkberry)
If you don't want to talk about LDS, then that's cool by me. And I appreciate your apology. Unlike some people on this board, you have shown that you have a good heart, even though we don't see eye to eye. :)
Adam
ARG220 wrote:
And Bill: (Snarkberry)
If you don't want to talk about LDS, then that's cool by me.
Was it Spock who did a little too much "LDS" in college?
Seriously, the reason I don't want to talk about the LDS church with you is, you have repeatedly bashed, slammed and misrepresented it, and this out of complete and total ignorance of what it's all about. You have called it a "false religion," "rediculous [sic]," a "cult," and other choice words. You have called me "confused" and other Mormons "confused and deceived". When I have explained to you that Mormonism is not any of those things, you have repeatedly acted like the proverbial "brick wall," unteachable and stubbornly arrogant in your belief that yours is the only true religion. The nicest thing you ever said about Mormonism is that its web site is "interesting." So do you blame me for not wanting to talk to you about it? Your mind is closed.
To quote someone familiar to this board, "You're impossible! Just impossible!"
I won't debate you further on this subject.
Well Bill, if you give enough time, I could show you why I said all those things about Mormons. All I'd have to do is read a little more from that website, or go to my Christian book retailer and buy a book about cults, and I'd have no problem showing you why Mormons are a deceived people.
But I'm not going to force you to talk about anything. And since you THINK I'm a "brick wall," then I guess we're through on this subject, eh? Just do me a favor. If you're not going to discuss it with me, then study the Bible more, and then compare it to the Book of Mormon, and the teachings of John Smith. Or go to your local Christian book store (cause you said Mormons are Christian, right?) and pick up a copy of a book that compares Mormonism to the teachings of the Bible. I garantee if you do that, then your eyes will be opened wider to the things of God.
Seek the truth Bill, and you will find it.
Adam
Arg:
No, you didn't answer my questions at all. You repeated information I already had. That we all have, because the story of Christ permeates our culture.
In questioning you, I am asking YOU to question. You repeat endlessly that God is loving. You go on and on about how wonderful and great he is, and you also insist that you DO think, that you are NOT mindlessly following stuff that has been thrown at you. Yet you don't stop to question: "If God loves us so, why did he create the Tree of knowledge, put it right in front of Adam and say 'don't eat'? What was he trying to prove? What was the point? Why did he want to tempt and test Adam and Eve right out the gate? WHAT KIND OF GAME WAS HE PLAYING?" Instead you come back with the incredibly lame and irrelevant "Why did he make birds? Because they're pretty." Talk about checking out on stuff you don't want to hear!
If the entity in question in this scenario was a human being, you would think they were a jerk. Or if you didn't think they were a jerk, you would certianly question WHY they were doing what they were doing, wnd whether it was appropriate or necessary, and what the situation said about the person in question and thier personality.
IMagine it as a father. Father has something he KNOWS will be bad news for his child, and also irresistably interesting. For the sake of argument, let's say it's a loaded gun. So he takes a big fat Magnum 357, all shiny and new, and places it right in the middle of the child's playroom. He says to the child: "Everythign in this room is yours to play with. Except this gun. It's bad, it will cause you to die. It's terrible. That is the one thing you can't touch." Then he leaves.
Wouldn't you consider that a sick mindgame on the part of the father? Would you consider that a loving, wise, thoughtful thing to do? Would you consider it necessary? Would you BLAME the child that picked up the gun?
Because that's the equivalent tale, and it SUCKS. So for my money, the whole story begins badly, with God demonstrating what a crummy example of wisdom, love or compassion he is and I reject it from there. I have no respect for him as he is portrayed in the Bible, and I cannot fathom why anyone would.
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
Here, Stoidela, is a link to help explain the whole Adam and Eve story. It's the sixth chapter of an online guide called "Gospel Principles." It's simplified, but it does help explain things.
The Fall of Adam and Eve (http://www.lds.org/en/3_Gospel_Principles/U02_C06-Fall_of_Adam.html)
It explains that "Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have joy." Without the fall of Adam and Eve, they would have remained in the Garden of Eden, forever childless, and not knowing good from evil. Read the link for more details. :)
Stoidela,
A lot of people believe in YHWH. They like Him. A lot. And their beliefs aren't hurting you. I understand why you don't like Him. I can think of few dieties mankind has ever worshiped that were as capriciously violent. But purposefully trying to poke holes in someone's belief system is both pointless and rude. It rarely convinces anyone, and it's always an offense to the person.
Arg,
Why do you care what Stoidela and others believe? And please, don't try to say it's out of love and concern for their souls. I know the difference between sincere concern for someone, and religious fanaticism that just wants to be right. You don't fool me for a minute. I mean, your posting on the Internet, in the Pit for cryin' out loud. That's not because you care. If you love YHWH so much, get off the Internet, and pick up your bible. Or pray for people. You'll make a lot fewer enemies.
Your Quadell
Where man is sinful, and we need some form of atonement for our sins.
Dang. I was so sure that said, "Where man is painful, we need some ointment for our skins."
I guess I read that wrong, didn't I?
Quadell asks:Arg,
Why do you care what Stoidela and others believe? And please, don't try
to say it's out of love and concern for their souls. I know the
difference between sincere concern for someone, and religious fanaticism
that just wants to be right. You don't fool me for a minute. I mean,
your posting on the Internet, in the Pit for cryin' out loud. That's not
because you care. If you love YHWH so much, get off the Internet, and
pick up your bible. Or pray for people. You'll make a lot fewer enemies.
I know you think you've got me pegged Quadell, but you don't. The fact is that I've prayed for all of you, and I have high hopes that maybe one of you, just one of you, would see God the way I see Him. And the way that millions of other Christians like me see Him. And I read my Bible, quite a lot these days, since I rely on it to answer the many questions you guys ask me. (I read it every day before, but now I read it double)
I love God with all my heart. And I realize where I am. Lynn Bodoni once asked that if I wanted to witness, that I go to the Spiritual Channel, or something like that, on AOL. Well, let me ask you, what are the chances that ANY of you would go to that place. Why do you think preachers go into biker bars, and nasty places like that? It's because the chances are good that the people who inhabit those places do not know the ways of God. Same thing here. I haven't found one person yet who believes what I do, and I consider that a blessing. Because maybe I can help some of you open your eyes to the truth, and the truth will set you FREE.
(more gratuitous witnessing snipped)
[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]
Ugh ... drink the effing kool-aid, already.
Ugh ... drink the effing kool-aid, already.
Is this an insult to me? If it is, then I don't understand it. Maybe it wasn't an insult, who knows. Maybe it's an expression that I'm not familiar with. But, could you explain it to me? Thanks.
Adam
Arg:
Ever heard of Jim Jones? The Guyana mass suicide, using cyanide-laced Kool-Aid so they could all go home to Jesus?
Get it now?
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
On November 18, 1978 (before your time, but some of us have perspective) in a small town named Jonestown in the South American country of Guyana, a terrible thing happened. A large group of people, sincere in their belief that they were following the Will of God, committed suicide by drinking cyanide laced Kool-Aid on the instruction of their preacher, the Rev. Jim Jones. They had moved to this retreat to experience the unbounded Joy of Knowing God away from outside influences, and they brought their children along with them to share this joy.
Mothers fed the poison to their children. People lined up calmly to get their dose.
There is a lesson to be learned from this. Never trust what another person tells you about God's Will. Think for yourself. And every cult looks reasonable and the One True Way to those inside it.
Sorry, Adam, but you're a good example of one of the many reasons I don't believe in your god, to wit, I don't like His salesman.
Adam's latest sermon shows that his god is useful mostly for engendering a feeling of euphoria. Thus being the moral equivalent of a dope dealer.
Arg: (I read it every day before, but now I read it double)
As in doubletalk?
Arg: I haven't found one person yet who believes what I do, and I consider that a blessing.
Trust us, kiddo, the rest of us consider that a blessing also.
Now that you mentioned that Guyana thing, it sounds vaguely familiar. But thanks for the little history lesson Dr. F. That's just one more example of people doing stupid things in the "name of God." Then it gives the real Christians a bad name.
And Monty: Don't twist my words to mean something else. You knew perfectly well what I meant when I said both those statements.
Adam
Adam didn't have to sin. God didn't "set it up" that way.
Like hell he didn't. A truly all-powerful deity capable of creation could, in the blink of an eye, have chosen to create the universe in which Adam didn't choose to sin. But he didn't. He could've chosen to create the universe where the devil didn't exist. But he didn't. He had all the possibilities of creation at his fingertips, suppposedly, and chose to create this one, so it's his fault.
By disobeying God, Adam and Eve brought sin into a sinless world.
So something exists that was not created by god, ergo at least one other being is capable of acts of creation equivalent to those of god. Cripes, do you everconsider the logical implications of anything you say?
Anyone who thinks all people are inherently bad should be locked away as a sociopath, BTW.
ARG220 wrote:
Because when it comes time for Christians to be judged by God...
The whole point is that I'm not a Christian. I am not governed by your rules, your religion, or your god.
Your own quote above says it: your god will judge Christians, who are the people who follow and worship him. That group does not include me. I have no reason to worry about the teachings of your messiah, because I am not one of the people he was sent to save.
One has every right to be concerned about one's own soul; since you accept Jehovah as your overlord, you should expect to be judged in the afterlife. But my soul is my own, and no one has any claim on it but me.
Auraseer: When you take one of my quotes, and just show a snippet, it takes what I said and puts a different spin on it. Please, if you're going to quote me, then quote the whole paragraph so you don't change the meaning of what I say.
I realize that you're not a Christian. You say:But my soul is my own, and no one has any claim on it but me.
Yea, and I bet you're pro-choice too. As it stands right now, your soul is not your own. In fact, it belongs to Satan. If you so chose, you can accept Jesus, and then you'll be free of Satan's grasp. My gosh, I've never heard anybody say that "My soul is my own." You, my friend, are making a grave mistake. Because one day you'll find out just who you belong to. God have mercy on your soul.
Adam
Love the leap there to being pro-choice.
I am too. I guess I'm in Satan's grip.
I've always found it fascinating that the sickest, most evil, twisted, and dastardly persons almost invariably come from extremely religious backgrounds.
Hmmm.
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
Well Stoid, you're in Satan's grasp too. But it's not because you are pro-choice, or swear about God, or do whatever it is you do. You're in Satan's grasp because...well...you haven't made Jesus your Lord. Jesus says that if you're not for Him, then you're against Him. It's pretty simple really. Either you serve Him, or you don't. And unfortunatly for you, you've chosen not to serve Him.
I've always found it fascinating that the sickest, most evil, twisted,
and dastardly persons almost invariably come from extremely religious
backgrounds.
Wow, we may actually agree on something. 'Cause I think the same thing too. (Well, kind of) To understand what I mean, look in the Bible about what Jesus has to say about religion. See how He deals with those religious Sadducees, and Pharisees.
The thing that none of you have yet understood is that being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with having a relationship.
Adam
Friends and neighbors, like I said in another thread, it's all about ego and comfort. People like Adam think they and the rest of humanity are worthless wretches, so it gives their ego a stroke to imagine that they know some secret, important thing about you that you yourself don't know. We've all seen it again and again and again.
You're in Satan's grasp because...well...you haven't made Jesus your Lord.
So, almost everyone who has ever lived is/has been in Satan's grasp.
Does this mean Satan wins?
Arg, your relentless witnessing has finally shown me the light and I have accepted your God. Do you mind if I test my new wheels?
Dear Lord,
Just make Arg go away!!
Amen
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>^,,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
So, almost everyone who has ever lived is/has been in Satan's grasp.
Yes! I see somebody's catching on here.
Does this mean Satan wins?
Not in the least. Although he's having his fun here on earth, he will eventually find himself burning forever, along with all his minions in hell.
Diane: I'll bet you were one of those people who personally complained to Lynn Bodoni about getting me kicked off the board. Well, if you notice, we are currently in the "Hey ARG220, Over here!" thread. So somebody must want me to stick around.
Adam
I can only hope that someday you won't be mistaken.
One must contain a disease to cure it. Since your happy-face dithering will continue no matter what is said to you, best to keep it in just one place.
We labeled it nice and prominent-like so you could find it.
Damn, it almost makes me wish that I hadn't accepted Jesus as my Personal Saviour. The company on the other team looks like more fun. Maybe I could enter into Satan's Grasp for a little while, and then go to Confession, to clear it up.
Personally, I feel that Satan (or however you wish to anthropomorphize anti-social thoughts and actions) has a firmer grasp upon those who are prideful in their ignorance and intolerance of the sincere beliefs of others.
I can only hope that someday you won't be mistaken.
One must contain a disease to cure it. Since your happy-face dithering
will continue no matter what is said to you, best to keep it in just one
place.
We labeled it nice and prominent-like so you could find it.
So, this thread is like a little holding pen? Or a little chamber where I can be free to say whatever I want? Heaven forbid that I might break free, and contaminate the entire board with my "happy face dithering!"
Ahhh, sometimes you guys crack me up.
Adam
I think Adam's really a nice guy who wants the best for others, as he sees it. But, as Lynn has pointed out several times, this is the BBQ Pit, not the Heaven Daily Journal. I had the same problem when I first came onto AOL's SDMB about a year and a half ago--preaching my religion, that is. I still sometimes forget what this forum is supposed to be about and wax didactic, but I try not to. After all, there are only a billion or so Usenet newsgroups to preach to, if I wanted to.
Adam, I suggest you go to the newsgroup called talk.religion.misc if you really can't hold back. They will probably welcome any views you wish to share, or at least not complain that you are witnessing to them. I'm sure there are also Pentacostal Christian newsgroups, as well as general ones. And if you really want to cause trouble (g), you can invade the alt.atheism NG and start preaching to them.*
*Actually, I don't recommend you preach to anyone, period. But at least learn a little about other religions before you attack them. It makes folks grouchy when you purport to understand their religions, yet cannot even get the names of their founders correct (e.g., it's Joseph Smith who founded the LDS church, not John Smith).
Reading ARG's posts, I have wavered between being amused and being irritated (nothing in between). However, his incessant witnessing has become tiresome.
Personally, I'm just glad he doesn't have my phone number or address, like the "Christ Dude" (imagine a cross between ARG and Keanu Reeves) I met my freshman year in college. This guy tried to tell me that my (Methodist) beliefs weren't enough to get me into Heaven. He'd call me and try to get me to drop whatever I was doing to come to Bible study ("Sorry, Christ Dude, God want's me to study for my Physics final now") and tell me that it was urgent that I start spreading the "Good News." After I finished finals and went home, I figured I had gotten away from him. Not so. I got a call one day from the Christ Dude, "Dude, I didn't have your home phone number and it was, like, a lot of trouble to get it (no shit, Sherlock). It's like, urgent (he used that word a lot) that you become like Christ's disciples and start spreading the word of Jesus and baptizing people or you're going to Hell." I blew him off and thankfully never heard from him again.
My point is this. Contrary to PLD's statementPeople like Adam think they and the rest of humanity are worthless wretches, so it gives their ego a stroke to imagine that they know some secret, important thing about you that you yourself don't know.I honestly think that ARG believes that if he doesn't do everything he can to show us all the path, that he himself will not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. i.e. he not only has to try to enlighten us, he has to be unrelenting in this pursuit, or face dire consequences.
Unfortunately, people like ARG invariably induce more people to shun religion than embrace it. Fortunately, despite the harassment of the Christ Dude, I remained true to my beliefs and continue to do so to this day.
Arg, your relentless witnessing has finally shown me the light and I have accepted your God. Do you mind if I test my new wheels?
Dear Lord,
Just make Arg go away!!
Amen
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>^,,^<
KITTEN
************
. . . .Not in the least. Although he's having his fun here on earth, he will eventually find himself burning forever, along with all his minions in hell
blah
blah
blah. . . .
Arg
I want my money back.
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>^,,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
Guys, I think we now know the utter hopelessness of this enterprise, if in fact we didn't already. Adam is a BABY! he's only 21! Doesn't nearly EVERY 21 year old believe utterly in whatever it is they believe in, whether it's Marilyn Manson, Quake, or Christ? 21 year olds are, as a group, the embodiment of ignorant arrogance. (With some exceptions, of course.)
Check back with him in a decade or so and see what's what. I imagine the story will be very different.
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Stoidela
******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******
And in ten years how will we find him? There's a lot of Wal-Marts, and all their Assistant Managers look alike. We could start searching through the red-neck wife beaters out bass fishing, but the odds of finding the right one are long. I know, we could just take a random sample, as they all sound alike, if we can get one to put down his beer...
Diane- Jesus DID show hatred and intolerance, of a sort. Remember the moneychangers in the temple?
quote: And in ten years how will we find him? There's a lot of Wal-Marts, and
all their Assistant Managers look alike. >>
Funny, I had the sucker pegged for a Denny's Regional Manager.
The thing about this Adam guy, or Arg, or whatever the heck he calls himself, is he's a dime a dozen. I've seen this guy, or a cheap replica, at every freakin' message board I've ever visited. This one's a wooden-headed Christian with a blind spot a mile wide; another one's a mysogynistic freak who gets his kicks baiting feminists; yet another is a gun-toting militia wacko with a flag pole up his bum who rants and raves and foams at the mouth about the mud people. You know these guys - they're the ones who speed dial their favorite talk radio shows at the same time every day to hear themselves shriek over the airwaves. Too bad they never hear a word anybody else says. They might learn something. Heck, they might even find somebody to talk to other than their dozens of cats.
Diane: I'll bet you were one of those people who personally complained to Lynn Bodoni about getting me kicked off the board. Well, if you notice, we are currently in the "Hey ARG220, Over here!" thread. So somebody must want me to stick around.
Adam
Are you like dense or something? The thread "Hey ARG2200, Over here!" was created to further call you on your un-Christian-like attack on another faith, not to give you more bandwidth for your preaching.
I admittedly joke about WWJD, but getting down to your level, do you honestly feel that Jesus would show the hatred and intollerence for others like you have shown on this board? I would like you to answer this question, purdy please, with sugar on top?
As far as complaining to Lynn? I haven't - yet. Continue to witness, and I certainly will.
If you would pull your head out of your heavenly butt for 5 seconds and start paying attention, you would know that I was the person who publicly thanked her for deleting your witnessing (go back and read the thread.)
I am a staunch supporter of freedom of speech, but just as Lynn said, your witnessing garbage does not belong on this board. I enjoy a good religious debate, but I don't appreciate wading through your prophetizing bullshit. Witnessing your personal gospel contributes nothing to the board except taking up space and by all appearances, the owners of this board and it's readers don't want it here.
Comprehende'?
I thank her again for removing it and I trust that she continues to do so.
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>^,,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
Diane: I admit that I have not behaved just like Jesus would have. He would speak the truth to you in love, and not poke fun, or ridicule any of you. He would be infinetly more eloquent than I am. And when he spoke, you'd truly know that you were listening to THE greatest teacher of all time. But as someone else pointed out, Jesus is capable of anger. I've been frustrated at times with all of you. But it's no excuse to act the way I sometimes have. So, I humbly apologize.
Strainger said:I honestly think that ARG believes that if he doesn't do everything he
can to show us all the path, that he himself will not be able to enter
the Kingdom of Heaven. i.e. he not only has to try to enlighten us, he
has to be unrelenting in this pursuit, or face dire consequences.
This could not be farther from the truth about me. My way to heaven is paid, in full. I've been saved. My "preaching," or witnessing to you is not my ticket to heaven. I'm not doing this because I'm scared of going to hell if I don't. I'm doing this because I simply want to. Jesus tells us in the Bible to preach the good news to every nation. But He never even implied that it was the way to get to heaven. I'm doing this out of love. Plain and simple.
Now, some of you have had your fun by insulting my age, or my age group, or whatever. I readily admit that I have some growing up to do...both mentally, and spiritually. But I garantee you all this much: As I grow older, I will also grow closer to God. And with spiritual maturity will come a closer relationship with Jesus.
You also think I'll be working at a Wall-Mart, or Denny's...etc. Ok, for one thing, there's nothing wrong with those types of jobs. If a job at Wall Mart is the best thing a person can achieve, then there's honor in that position. But I'd rather not go into that too much...it's a different thread altogether.
As it is right now, I feel like God wants me to be maybe a counselor, or perhaps a psychiatrist. I feel it's my strong point, and I plan to go to school again and maybe be a Christian counselor. But, I'm still undecided, and need to pray a lot more. Just thought I'd let you all know that I don't plan on being a Wall Mart manager.
Adam
ARG220 wrote:
My way to heaven is paid, in full. I've been saved. My "preaching," or witnessing to you is not my ticket to heaven. I'm not doing this because I'm scared of going to hell if I don't. I'm doing this because I simply want to. Jesus tells us in the Bible to preach the good news to every nation. But He never even implied that it was the way to get to heaven. I'm doing this out of love. Plain and simple.
Could you answer a question for me about your faith, Adam? What happens when someone who has been "saved" commits an unspeakable act, such as murder, or decides they don't want to be saved? Does your concept of salvation imply that once one is saved, one is always saved, regardless of their subsequent sins? What if they reject God *after* being saved?
Could you answer a question for me about your faith, Adam? What happens
when someone who has been "saved" commits an unspeakable act, such as
murder, or decides they don't want to be saved? Does your concept of
salvation imply that once one is saved, one is always saved, regardless
of their subsequent sins? What if they reject God *after* being saved?
Bill, you've pinpointed one of the most dangerous concepts in Christianity. What you're basically asking is if I believe in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. (I know there's a specific word for this belief, but it slips my mind right now.) The answer to that, is a RESOUNDING NO. This is an extremely DANGEROUS thing to believe in.
Let's not talk about murder, or rape, or "big" sins. Let's say that I fall prey to a common occurence in Christianity known as "backsliding." Backsliding is when a saved person stops serving God. (Usually they will stop coming to church, stop praying and reading their Bible, and they may reject God...etc.)
Now, if I backslide(and stay backsliden), will I go to heaven? No. Once you're saved, it doesn't give you free will to live an unholy life, and still expect God to welcome you with open arms in heaven.
Luckily, if you backslide, God is merciful, and if you chose to come back to Him, and live a holy life again, He will accept you with open arms.
I could go on, but I fear I may be tagged for "witnessing." So I think I'll stop at this point in my post. Oh, BTW, if you murder somebody, and then feel true remorse, and ask God to forgive you of that horrible crime, then He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sin. But you can't just murder somebody, then ask God to forgive you, and then murder somebody else, and ask Him again...it's just a rediculous cycle. There has to be a point where you say, "This is it, I need to stop the trend of sinning," whether it be murder, or stealing cookies from the cookie jar.
Ok, if I don't be quiet now, I never will. If you have anymore questions about my faith, don't hesitate to ask.
Adam
ARG220 wrote:
Diane: I'll bet you were one of those people who personally complained to Lynn Bodoni about getting me kicked off the board. Well, if you notice, we are currently in the "Hey ARG220, Over here!" thread. So somebody must want me to stick around.
And Diane replied:
Are you like dense or something? The thread "Hey ARG2200, Over here!" was created to further call you on your un-Christian-like attack on another faith, not to give you more bandwidth for your preaching.
Exactly. I started this thread in a fit of annoyance, after reading ARG's extremely casual denunciation of someone else's faith. In a perfectly offhand manner, he called Mormonism a "false religion", and continued on about his topic as if there were no conceivable possibility of disagreement. That was either the most thoughtless statement I've ever seen or the most arrogant, and it upset me to the point where I had to react to it.
I thought that this thread might draw some personal attacks, a short argument, and maybe a few side comments before dying out. Instead, it's now over 50 posts long, and still growing; and to my great astonishment, it looks like the large majority agrees with me. (A unique experience, to be sure. I'll try not to let it go to my head. =B^)
I think that my intent here was to somehow convince ARG220 to stop his proselytizing, because I didn't want to have to "hear" it, and I perceived that others felt the same way. But last night, someone happened to ask me about my personal beliefs; after talking with her, I came to a realization.
I believe that it is wrong for a person to force his views on other people. ARG220 believes otherwise. If I try to convince him to come around to my way of thinking, I am ignoring my own principles, and I don't feel right about that.
So, contrary to the spirit of the Pit, I'm going to stop arguing. Say what you like, Adam; preach your religion if you wish. It's your right to do so, just as it is my right not to listen.
Say what you like, Adam; preach your religion if you wish. It's your right to do so,. . . Auraseer
I agreed with you up to this point.
The board monitor has made it perfectly clear that witnessing on this board will not be tolerated, so no, it is not his right to do so.
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>^,,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
In regard to Adam's post about his possible career choice, I must plead with him to reconsider. As a former councelor I must tell you, Adam, that you are, at present, wholly unequipped for this job. The most important thing a councelor must do is listen to the client. I mean really listen. I have not seen you once demonstrate any ability to actually hear and absorb what anyone else says.
You said that you may consider becoming a Christian councelor. DON'T. On this board, many people have asked you questions about Christianity and you haven't answered any of them. You have not been even remotely convincing here. How do you think you would help someone who has questions about their faith?
While you're praying about choosing a career, practice those listening skills. I'd hate to see you hobble down the wrong career path because you were so committed to your perceptions of your god that you didn't hear what he was really trying to tell you.
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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization
Adam, if you learn nothing else from visiting these boards, I wish you would learn to spell the word "ridiculous."
ARG220 wrote:
[quoteNow, if I backslide(and stay backsliden), will I go to heaven? No. Once you're saved, it doesn't give you free will to live an unholy life, and still expect God to welcome you with open arms in heaven.[/quote]
Okay, thank you for clarifying your beliefs on that matter. It always has bothered me that some people can believe that once they are saved, they can do anything they want to do and still go to heaven. You're right, that is a very dangerous doctrine. (Personally, I believe that no one is really "saved" until after they have done all they can do.)
Lucky: Thanks for your concern. Or maybe it's fear that somebody like me would be giving people advice?
No, Adam, I am not afraid of 'someone like you' giving advice, I am afraid of you, specifically giving advice. Here's a hypothetical:
Client: I have some questions about my faith. For instance, what happens to the Bushmen? Do they go to heaven?
Adam: I don't know about the Bushmen.
:::::end of discussion:::::
or
Client: I listen to the Jesus show on the radio, and I think he talks to me.
Adam: Hooray! You're saved!
Yes, OK, so I'm picking on you a bit. I'm sure you would get some training to help you distinguish between delusions and....hmmm, not sure what to call it as I rather think relgion is delusional....Let's say safe delusions from harmful ones. But my main point, Adam, is that you do not address questions which are directly put to you. If something is asked that you, for whatever reason, don't want to or can't answer, you just brush it under the rug and divert the conversation. These are not the characteristics of a good councelor, Christian or otherwise.
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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization
The thing that none of you have yet understood is that being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with having a relationship. You might try establishing a relationship between your brain and your mouth, as it's quite obvious the two have never been introduced. Where you got the idea being a Christian has nothing to do with religion, I'll never know. Sounds to me like someone's feeding you your lines but never bothered to explain what Christianity is all about except for the proselytizing aspects.
Ignorance of spiritual and religious matters oozes from your very pores.
(Sorry, kids, I kept my mouth shut all this time, but I could not let that one go).
Adam: so, how are you coming on the spelling of "Joseph?"
Lucky: Thanks for your concern. Or maybe it's fear that somebody like me would be giving people advice?
Damn right. I fear for the first depressed/suicidal teen who would come to you.
Contrary to how I appear on this board, listening is what I do BEST.
You HEAR, but you do not UNDERSTAND.
Lucky: Thanks for your concern. Or maybe it's fear that somebody like me would be giving people advice?
Contrary to how I appear on this board, listening is what I do BEST. I've had people tell me that I'd make a great counselor, or psychiatrist. And maybe I didn't make myself clear about being a Christian counselor. What I meant, was that I'd counsel Christians. They would already hold the same beliefs that I do (basically). I realize that my skills need refining. And as I mentioned, I still need to pray about this, in great depth. But thanks for the advice.
And thank you Aseymayo for the spelling tip. :) As seen here, I am a horrible speller. But at least I'll know how to spell "ridiculous."
Adam
Adam
(Usually they will stop coming to church, stop praying and reading their Bible, and they may reject God...etc.)
Really arg? Wow i must be destined for hell (i read my bible rarely, i do pray but not like you would consider it, and i rarely go to church). And you know what? Being a Christian has EVERYTHING to do with religion.
Religion is for COMMUNITY, the same thing with joining a church. People join religions and churches to be with like minded people. And you know what arg? Your proselytizing only pushes people away from the goal you wish. Live by example, not by spouting your mouth off.
arg220,get in touch with me at lemonlimefizz@yahoo.com.Thank you
Hey VanillaIce:
Do me a favor. E-mail me first. I'd like to know what you're up to. (And why you suddenly want to talk to me)
Adam
Arg, what department of heaven gave you the message that perpetual annoyance was the way to save your fellow citizens of earth?
Incidentally, if all you say is true, then hell will be occupied by Wiccans, Jews, members of all other religions, gays, the sexually active, the pro-choice, everybody who's open-minded etc., etc.
Heaven, on the other hand, will be occupied chiefly by holier-than-thou evangelist Christians.
I know which one I'd choose.
Arg, what department of heaven gave you the message that perpetual
annoyance was the way to save your fellow citizens of earth?
The only reason you're annoyed, is because you chose to be. And besides, I think I'm doing a good thing here. I'm adding a new dimension, and bringing light to an otherwise lifeless, and dark environment. (Yea, I'm saying the SD is dark)
Don't forget that us Christians are the salt of the earth. What's wrong with a little extra seasoning in this message board.
Adam
I'm adding a new dimension, and bringing light to an otherwise lifeless, and dark environment.
OK, show of hands. How many people see ARG's messages as something "new?" OK, now how many people have heard it all before? All right, thanks. You may put your hands down now.
OK, serious question for ARG: (I'm genuinely curious about this) Has anyone on this message board contacted you to acknowledge your version of the "truth?" I mean in the context of, "Yes you're right. Please tell me more." A simple yes or no will suffice, but please be honest if you choose to answer me.
Well Strainger, the answer is no. Aside from some encouraging words from Pickman's Model, I have not been told that I am right. And Pickman didn't say I was right. He just gave me tips on how to answer some of the questions put before me.
It's been frustrating to say the least. Here I am among 1,800+ people. And nobody believes in God the way I (and so many millions around the world) do. Or if they believe, they haven't said anything to me to verify that fact.
And I didn't mean that I was NEW. I said I added a new dimension. Just as Loverock has added his own twist, even though other goons have come before him.
BTW Strainger: If one person...just ONE e-mails me, or says that they believe as I do, then it will ALL be worth it. And even if nobody believes the way I do, then I have still spread God's Word across this board, and you have all heard it. Now it's up to you to act upon it.
Adam
ARG, Yes! I am announcing right now that I totally agree with you.I'm coming out of the closet! I haven't added anything on this thread because you have said it all. And I must commend you, you've been quite patient with certain unbelievers. They say they are openminded, but as we can see, they just want to flame you. pldennison has called me idiotic, ignorant, etc. simply for saying prayer should be in the schools. How open minded. The unbelievers say they're way is the ONLY way and anyone else is stupid. Intolerance, thats what it is. Thank you. I await the flames now.
Incidentally, I understand that some ecclesiastics declared recently that hell is not a sulphurous fiery pit but merely the state of being denied the presence of God. I presume we mean the Christian god here, in which case great, where do I sign up?
ARG220, how many F*CKING times are we going to see, "Gee, you're right, I should be more tolerant."
"You're all going to hell!"
"Gee, you're right, I should be more tolerant."
"You're all going to hell!"
ARG doesn't see, "You're all going to hell" as intolerance. He sees it as helpful instruction. Both pity and frustartion are in order.
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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization
pldennison has called me idiotic, ignorant, etc. simply for saying prayer should be in the schools.
No, I called you ignorant because you are apparently unaware that a) it is not illegal to pray in school and b) it is illegal to force someone else to.
How open minded.
Yes, that's right, I'm closed-minded for believing we should actually stick to our own laws and Constitution rather than bowing to theocrats. Say, is your planet a square one where everyone does everything the reverse of how its done on Earth?
The unbelievers say they're way is the ONLY way and anyone else is stupid.
Uh, yeah. As opposed to what Adam has said, which is that his way is the only way and anyone else is stupid. Do you read this stuff while you write it, or just pick words out of a hat?
Intolerance,thats what it is.
Adam and his kind are among the most intolerant people on the face of the planet. Ask both of us how we feel about homosexuals, religious freedom, and gender roles, and you'll quickly find that out.
Show me ONE "unbeliever"(sic) that claims that his/hers way is the only one.
I have known believers who say that THEIR way is the only one. Actually, THEY ALL claim that their way is the right way. Who is intolerant?
Give me ONE war in the name of atheism if you can, I'll give you THOUSANDS in the name of religion, and GOD. THEN I become intolerant! When I see how much destruction, and hatred, and death have been the result of religious conflict!
And not only physical destruction, but emotional and spiritual as well. Especially when it's taken to extremes, like ARG does.
ARG, I wish you well, really. But you're not accomplishing anything here. If you believe vanillanice is on your side, and that, in your own words, If one person...just ONE e-mails me, or says that they believe as I do, then it will ALL be worth it, you may now go in peace. Your work is done. Let us continue our journey to hell, without you.
You can try now another BB, and start all over again.
Good luck!
------------------
Men will cease to commit atrocities only when they cease to believe absurdities.
-Voltaire
try being catholic, we get to drink, screw, fight, whateve, all we gotta do is 'confess', ask for forgiveness, and all is well.
of course the downside is perpetual guilt...the molesting priests...the pious sermonizing...etc.
actually, I almost envy you arg et al, I wish I could give something credit for all good, and blame for all bad, to feel like I was just a servant of something more supreme...it must make it alot easier to sleep at night.
But what if you do everything right, you are sooo good, and then something horrible happens to you , do you blame'god', or yourself, thinking I MUST have offended'him'.
Life gets a bit more complicated as you get older...but there is no harm in thying to be good, at least you arent out shooting up schools..(not meant as a joke...I really am glad there is one good kid out there)
Slythe, and Lucky: What on EARTH are you two talking about? Did I miss something?
Look, folks - Arg220 had his say, got tired of arguing with everyone, and moved on to other things. He's been given a forum to preach in if he feels the need, and the rest of us can either ignore it or debate with him if we so choose.
So why are people suddenly reviving this old thread and jumping on Arg again? Give him a break! He's been contributing quietly and respectfully to other threads. Let bygones be bygones and move on to more productive stuff.
------------------
sosumi
Slythe: Actually, I'm an atheist too, and find people like Arg repellant and dangerous. However, I think he might have learned something here and don't want to see all of that effort wasted by antagonizing him needlessly. I'm sure he still has hold firmly to is beliefs, but he now knows that 'converting' people isn't just a matter of talking a lot and quoting the Bible, that other people have other beliefs about which they feel just as strongly as he does, etc. I'm sure he hasn't given up, but I'd rather see him exploring the board and learning more about other people than spending all of his time preaching and arguing. You never know, WE might convert HIM!
------------------
sosumi
coosa, I could go for that if he hadn't tried this before. He pretends to be tolerant, people ask him questions, he recites the same scriptures over and over, shows UTTER amazement that we don't fawn over his wisdom, then he tells us we're going to hell. Typical right-wing "christian" trick of pretending to listen to other points of view for the sole purpose of weakening the resolve of the "sinner". Rev. Moon would be proud of him.
"Incidentally, I understand that some ecclesiastics declared recently that hell is
not a sulphurous fiery pit but merely the state of being denied the presence of God."
-- matt_mcl
I thought Christopher Marlowe said that 400+ years ago. It's taken the ecclesiastics a while to catch up ...
He pretends to be tolerant, people ask him questions, he recites the
same scriptures over and over, shows UTTER amazement that we don't fawn
over his wisdom, then he tells us we're going to hell. Typical
right-wing "christian" trick of pretending to listen to other points of
view for the sole purpose of weakening the resolve of the "sinner". Rev.
Moon would be proud of him.
Perhaps you've been away for awhile. I've basically been banished to the GD Forum, where I can spread my "poisonous venom" upon the teeming hundreds. I can, however, join you fine people in the Pit, as long as I don't witness. Anyway.
Slythe: You just don't have a clue about me do you? You can't possibly understand what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it. And you know what? That's ok. I don't expect an atheist to have a clue. Just know this: We (Christians) don't hate you. We hate sin. We don't hate other view points. And we're not trying to "get away" with anything.
It seems that you think this is all political. You said that I am "right wing." And then you spoke of amendments..etc. Let me ask you a question Slythe: What's wrong with one person, trying to show another person a better life? What's wrong with a little love? What's wrong with trying to help your fellow man? You don't have to accept Christianity, as I've already said a million times. Just realize that WE'RE not the bad guys.
Maybe I'm talking to a brick wall, who knows. It's funny Slythe, because you talk about ME being intolerant. But it looks like it's YOU, who's ranting and raving over there.
Adam
In my last post I said, "WE'RE not the bad guys."
Well, I think I need to expand on that. Even though people are inherently bad, it's not people that Christians hate. What we hate is SIN, and the power of Satan and his demons on individual's lives. If I witness to somebody, it's not because I think they're a bad guy, and I want them to join the "good guys." It's that I want them to turn away from Satan, and turn toward God, and Jesus.
Ok, I think I've gone far enough without venturing into the realm of witnessing, so I'll call it quits for this post. I just wanted to clear that little statement up.
Adam
ARG, you have not been banished anywhere. You are governed by the same policies as everyone else on the board; you can post, chat, and argue in all the forums, just like the rest of us. The only new stipulation is that religious witnessing be confined to GD. Actual debate and discussion are not affected.
Some people here are saying that you are intolerant. It seems that you are dismissing that as a gratuitous insult; perhaps you don't understand what they mean when they say it. I'll try and restate it in different terms.
Please do not take this as a personal attack, it is an honest attempt at explanation.
Your view of the world is set. In other threads, you have stated that there is absolutely nothing which would make you change your mind about your religious convictions. When asked what you would think if God himself told you that you were incorrect, you said that God would never do that, and any being that would, must really be a servant of Satan pretending to be God.
So if someone's beliefs do not exactly coincide with yours, no matter what that person can possibly say to you, you will refuse to acknowledge the slightest possibility that their beliefs could be correct. You will continue to insist that your own religion, and your own interpretation of your holy text, is the only correct belief system that can conceivably exist.
From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, http://www.m-w.com :
tol·er·ance, noun
Definition 2a: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.
You do not sympathize with people whose beliefs differ from your own, therefore you are by definition not tolerant. It's as simple as that.
Maybe it's because I'm tired of the shit "Christians" get away with. People who can say, "You're going to hell" and "I love you" in the same breath have been getting away with murder (literally!) for centuries. They have STOLEN words like "witness", "love", and "council".
It is not enough that their delusions have a large following; they wish to force others to join up. They would use the first amendment to get their way, then abolish it the first chance they get. Any criticism is viewed as oppression, any differing opinion is viewed as sinful, and anyone not of their sect is viewed as the enemy.
I am an atheist. This is called self-defense.
Hi. Yes, actually, I DO pick words out of a hat! It's amazing how it becomes a coherant whole, isn't it? Everyone IS sinful, they just don't realize it. I can't Prove there is a hell, but if you are wrong, your mistake is irreversible. Love ya, Vanilla
You know, ARG220, that's at least twice today that you've "quit" trying to convert others to your narrow brand of christianity.
I also realize how much easier it is to attack someone when you can pretend that person is influenced by "demons".
Well, I think I need to expand on that. Even though people are inherently bad, it's not
people that Christians hate. What we hate is SIN, and the power of Satan and his
demons on individual's lives. If I witness to somebody, it's not because I think they're a
bad guy, and I want them to join the "good guys." It's that I want them to turn away
from Satan, and turn toward God, and Jesus.
Yep. That's why Rev. Phelps 'n' Pals at godhatesfags.com picketed Matthew Sheppard's funeral, said he got what he deserved, said his parents got what they deserved for letting their son be gay, and published on every flier he sends out a reminder of how many days Matthew Sheppard has been in hell.
I now call upon the spirits of Nostradamus and Kreskin to help me predict that Adam will tell us all the reasons that Phelps is not a "real Christian."
pl, I have a question.I started school in 1963, which I believe is the year prayer was ruled out of schools. Did they all have to say a prayer in the morning? To who? It seems like it would be like the pledge of allegiance. And what of that? What if a pupil is a communist or american indian and doesn't like what the pledge says?
I feel sorry for you, ARG. I thought you'd be gone by now, preaching in some other MB.
But since you're back, let me ask you something: how come you never (with ONE exception) respond to me? how come all the questions I've asked you have been left unresponded?
You afraid of debating with me? Do you sense the ex-christian in me, or what?
Vanillanice:Did they all have to say a prayer in the morning?To who?Not every school had public prayer. Those that did used a lot of different forms, based on the community. Sometimes the Our Father, sometimes a recited text from a religious book or magazine, sometimes an impromptu prayer by the principal or a selected teacher or student. One of the points forgaotten by people who equate the "loss" of prayer in school with the dissolution of society and morals is that it was never a universal event. It was widespread, but there were plenty of schools where they had no prayer and turned out kids just like the praying schools.
As to your Pledge of Allegiance question: at the height of WWII, the Supreme Court actually had the wisdom to support the idea that a student could not be penalized for refusing to say the Pledge. (The student was, I believe, a Quaker who objected on religious grounds.) It always amazed me that the "good" Americans know so little history that they got hauled back into court for penalizing kids during the Vietnam conflict and I have seen the same stupidity re-enacted in just the last couple of years.
The Pledge is not even a legal document. It hardly qualifies as an elected official refusing to take an oath of office. Yet idiots still think that making kids conform to their shallow views of patriotism will create better citizens.
E1skeptic:
Don't feel bad. He has refused to respond to any actual questions posed by active Christians, too. He simply proclaims that we all have closed hearts and changes the subject (before we point out his errors, again).
------------------
Tom~
vanillaice, maybe if you didn't speak in code I could understand what the hell you're asking, but I'll give it a whirl anyway. . .
pl,I have a question.I started school in 1963, which I believe is the year prayer was
ruled out of schools.
You still seem to be under the misimpression that it is against the law to pray in school. I can only, for the umpteenth time, reiterate that it is not. Cumpulsory prayer is, of course, illegal, as it violates the First Amedment both as written (establishment clause) and as interpreted by the courts (that government may not give preference to religion over nonreligion).
Did they all have to say a prayer in the morning?
Beats me. I was born in 1969. I guess you can check Tom's answer.
To who?
I would imagine Allah, Satan or the Goddess, since we are such an ecumenical society. Did you have a point with this question? Something along the lines of "God exists because people pray to him?"
It seems like it would be like the pledge of allegiance.
Uh, no, it really wouldn't for any nunmber of reasons. For one thing, the pledge, before Eisenhower defiled it, does not compel recognition of a deity. For another, loyalty oaths died with McCarthy.
And what of that?What if a pupil is a
communist or american indian and doesn't like what the pledge says?
The courts have ruled on this, as Tom also pointed out.
Hey, if you want a theocracy, either start another country or convince the majority of the country to void the Constitution. This is America, pal, and as long as I live here, it will remain a secular government.
how come you never (with ONE exception) respond to me? how come all the
questions I've asked you have been left unresponded?
You afraid of debating with me? Do you sense the ex-christian in me, or
what?
Sorry I didn't answer you E1. (By the way, do you actually care that I don't answer you? Or are you just trying to lure me into another argument.)
Anyway, you said:Show me ONE "unbeliever"(sic) that claims that his/hers way is the only
one.
I have known believers who say that THEIR way is the only one. Actually,
THEY ALL claim that their way is the right way. Who is intolerant?
I agree with you E1. Most people who feel strongly about ANYTHING believe that thier way is the right way. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever said that I'm intolerant, or not. Have I?
Have any of you heard of "dc Talk?" Well, dc Talk an extremely popular Christian band. One of the lead singers once said this,
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is Christians; who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."
You know what? I don't want to be one of those people. And the people who "deny Jesus by their lifestyle" have become tolerant of the world today. As Christians, we are called to go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to be IN the world, but not OF the world.
If every Christian behaved the way most of you want me to behave, I believe God would have to destroy the world because of the wickedness that would abound. We are not going to leave the world alone. We will not tolerate sin, and we will not allow Satan to grasp the world even tighter. You may hate us, mock us, call us crazy. You may be afraid of us, and want us all locked up. But we will not be quiet. And if we lie silent, then the rocks will cry out in our place.
Many Christians are total fanatics, that do crazy, and very stupid things. But they fail to realize something. The war that we wage is not physical, or carnal. But the war is fought in the spirit. I will not go and bomb an abortion clinic, because that is absolutely insane. I will not wear a sign that says, "I hate gays," because that is not what this is all about.
I must say that I'm just as sick as all of you about what goes on in the "name of God." Look at David Koresh, or those wacky people who pay attention to that Rev. Phelps. (by the way, is that guy for real? Somebody actually has a website called "godhatesfags?!?!") It all makes me sick.
Ok, I think I've ranted enough. At least I'm doing it in the Pit. And perhaps I've made myself look even more foolish just now...but that's not what concerns me. What concerns me is that most of you think I'm like those crazies. Yea, and PLdennison was right in his little prediction. All right. This post probably made no sense at all. I just needed to fly off the handle for a second. Hopefully, one of you understood what I'm trying to say.
Adam
ARG220 posted:
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is Christians; who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."
You know what? I don't want to be one of those people.
If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh at this. Adam, you don't want to be one of those people, yet you are. You've posted some of the most intolerant and bigoted garbage concerning religion in general, and Christianity in particular, I've ever seen.
If you truly don't want to be that way, why do you persist?
Monty said:Adam, you don't want to be one of those people, yet you are. You've
posted some of the most intolerant and bigoted garbage concerning
religion in general, and Christianity in particular, I've ever seen.
Now Monty: You are a person who studies the Bible, right? I know you're Mormon, and what not, but surely you've studied the Gospels and seen the life of Jesus. So let me ask you a few questions. And answer me honestly. Did Jesus tolerate sin? Did Jesus let the Pharisees, and Saduccees get away with anything? Tell me, how many times did Jesus Himself say the words, "Woe to you." And while you're at it, why don't you tell me what happens in Matthew; chapter 11, verses 15-20. (For those who don't know, this is when Jesus overturned the tables in anger at the temple in Jerusalem)
My point is that while Jesus was (is) perfect, and blameless, He still hated sin, and was intolerant of it. He LOVES the sinner, but HATES the sin.
And that is how I want to be. I want to be like Jesus.
Adam
Or dead?
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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity
I wanna turn water into wine at parties. Try and tell me that wouldn't impress women.
------------------
Neil
". . .they could as easily have been carrying euphoniums and wearing war paint for all the notice their quarry would have taken of them."
-Douglas Adams, "Life, the Universe, and Everything"
pl, My point was back when you called me ignorant about the prayer in schools deal. I wanted information, which tomndeb gave. I'm sure reciting a prayer in school, not even listening to the words would not make a child a better citizen, etc. Actually, that begins at home, with the parents influence. When arg said he wanted to be like Jesus, he didn't mean dea, because Jesus is Not dead, remember? The empty tomb? He meant spreading the love of God. Obviously, you all think arg is not like that.
Mr. Arg, I generally do not participate in threads like this, where religious discussion degenerates into flame war (or this thread, which was designed as a religious flame war with Arg as the centerpiece). It is a waste of time. (See Matthew 7:6 and I Corinthians 2:14).
I have also generally avoided what you have posted on the board, wherever you have posted, for the same reason.
And please know that I am one of those born-again, evangelical, spirit-filled/charasmatic Christian believers you align yourself with.
I cannot believe that you actually think that what you are doing in a forum such as this has any positive effect.
You are acting like Jesus? Being intolerant of sin? I'd suggest you meditate a little bit on John 8:7.
And please note one great distinction. The passages you cite where Jesus is intolerant of sin are about the religious leaders in Christ's society. Men who knew the scriptures cold, yet blatantly disobeyed them, or took to a literal, heavy handed reading of the law while avoiding the spirit thereof. I daresay there are very few folks who fit that profile here on the SDMB.
Jesus always knew his audience. He spoke in parables, because he knew that those who wouldnto receive him wouldn't do so if he laid it out plainly; rather, he gave those who were really seeking him the chance to understand. When folks weren't receptive to his message, he moved on. Look at the passages about when he came back to his hometown of Nazareth, or when he gave instructions to his disciples about "shaking the dust from their feet."
There are no passages where Christ stood on a roof top or in a stadium with a mass audience and declared "I am the Son of God." He was much more discreet. He usually announced who he was in private, or in the context of someone proclaiming faith in him as he worked miracles.
Even after the Ascension, the followers of Christ didn't enter into debating sessions with potential believers. They preached to receptive audiences, or shared while reaching out, or healing the sick, etc.
I can't imagine what would happen if I took your approach to reaching out to my neighbors. That'd be a big hit.
You see, Arg, you have no credibility here on the internet, because nobody knows who you are, or can judge your character, or determine if you have any credibility. Jesus and his followers (down to this day) can only succeed in spreading the gospel by becoming credible conduits of God's love. That only happens in personal relationships. Friendship. Give and take. Listening.
And may I say, that ain't what's happening when you post on this board. Instead, you have portrayed yourself like the D.C. talk passage you quote so proudly.
I could paint "Jesus Saves" on the side of my house, and stand on my driveway with a bull horn proclaiming that all who will not accept Christ as Savior are damned to hell, and debate any non-Christian who passes me on the street until I've provoked him to a seething, curse-spouting ball of anger. What have I gained? I've proclaimed the truth. I've been "intolerant of sin." And I've made a complete ass of myself. And I've helped reinforce the negative stereotype of evangelical Christians that just about every person on this board buys into.
The credibility meter is on zero, my friend. Take a look at I corinthians 9: 19-27.
I'd chill out a while, and focus my evangelical efforts on folks in my neighborhood or family. Rethink the strategy. `Cause it ain't working. There are several evangelical Christian types here on the board. You haven't gotten much support in your efforts. There's a very good reason why.
Respectfully,
SoxFan59
"What would Jesus REALLY do?"
Dear SoxFan,
Thanks for your concern. I wish you would have conversed with me this whole time. I think it would have been interesting. :)
Galatians 1:3-5 Adam
A quick bit of decoding for those readers who can't dereference Bible verses in their heads.
Galatians 1:3-5 is a random bit of pablum, which says nothing germane to the discussion. (If I were in an uncharitable mood, I'd paraphrase it as: "God rocks! Yay!") This is Adam's little end-run around the No Witnessing policy. The poor boy is unable to refute or even acknowledge anything that SoxFan59 said, so he again falls back on random irrelevant quoting.
Incidentally, SoxFan59 is actually using his Bible quotes to support his arguments. For instance, I believe the Matthew verse he indicates is the one that says "cast not pearls before swine." I don't know whether to appreciate the logic, or resent being compared to a pig. (No points for anyone coming to the pig's defense. =B^)
Adam, how about redoing that response, and putting something of substance into it this time? A little logic won't hurt you, really.
Ooooooh K. Since my post wasn't good enough for some people, I'll make it even easier to understand. My previous post was mostly just for SoxFan. Since he does not post his e-mail address, I had to say what I wanted to via the board. But anyway...
Galatians 1:3-5 says, "Grace and peace be to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present age, according to the will or our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Now, I was using that as a little greeting to my brother SoxFan. Afterall, he does say he's Christian, and is even filled with the Holy Spirit. And I'm sure he understands it. And yes, it's relevant to a believer.
Now, as for his post to me: You're right about the verse in Matthew, Auraseer. But I don't consider you fine people pigs. However, I bet some of you find my presence...less than desirable.
If you've been folowing all my posts recently, you'll notice that I'm not going to witness anymore. Now, I'll probably talk about God, but I'm not going to try to get any of you saved. I can pray about your salvation privately, but it does no good to argue anymore. I've seen the error of my ways.
Adam
"Mr. Arg, I generally do not participate in threads like this, where religious discussion degenerates into flame war (or this thread, which was designed as a religious flame war with Arg as the centerpiece). It is a waste of time. (See Matthew 7:6 and I Corinthians 2:14).
I have also generally avoided what you have posted on the board, wherever you have posted, for the same reason.
And please know that I am one of those born-again, evangelical, spirit-filled/charasmatic Christian believers you align yourself with. "
::snip::
"I could paint "Jesus Saves" on the side of my house, and stand on my driveway with a bull horn proclaiming that all who will not accept Christ as Savior are damned to hell, and debate any non-Christian who passes me on the street until I've provoked him to a seething, curse-spouting ball of anger. What have I gained? I've proclaimed the truth. I've been "intolerant of sin." And I've made a complete ass of myself. And I've helped reinforce the negative stereotype of evangelical Christians that just about every person on this board buys into." SoxFan
And instead, Sox, you've won my admiration. I have disagreed with you in the past, and I will disagree with you in the future, no doubt...but I do respect your learning and common sense in most areas. Every time I start feeling that ALL Christians (especially evangelicals) are complete nincompoops, your name comes to mind.
Note: This message is written as my personal opinion, and is not a Straight Dope Staff message.
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Lynn the Packrat
"Every time I start feeling that ALL Christians (especially evangelicals) are complete nincompoops, your name comes to mind." Foot in mouth Lynn
Ummmm, I meant that your name comes to mind as an exception that makes me rethink that generalization!
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Lynn the Packrat
Lynn, inre Sox's admonishment of Adam:And instead, Sox, you've won my admiration. I have disagreed with you in the past, and I will disagree with you in the future, no doubt...but I do respect your learning and common sense in most areas.
Everything that Lynn said, also mirrors my own feelings, Sox. Thank you for allowing me to occasionally step back from my immediate reaction to those who would save me, and reflect upon what you have done and said in the past that disproves any belief I might have that all fundamentalists are the same.
Waste
Flick Lives!
I think its time to close this thread.Amen.....
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is Christians; who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."
You know what? I don't want to be one of those people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And with the time you are spending here annoying people, you could be reading Matthew 25:31-46 and adding that to your religious lifestyle instead.
This thread is taking too long to load. If you want to continue it, start another thread.
SDStaff Lynn
For the Straight Dope
Every time I start feeling that ALL Christians (especially evangelicals) are complete nincompoops, your name comes to mind.>>> Lynn
LOL! Thanks for the kind words, Lynn. I feel like re-working this quote as my new sig line!
God Bless!
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SoxFan59
"Its fiction, but all the facts are true!"
Adam says:
My point is that while Jesus was (is) perfect, and blameless, He still hated sin, and was intolerant of it. He LOVES the sinner, but HATES the sin.
You see, Adam; this is why you don't make any headway. You're essentially placing yourself in God's position. So you know what's in people's hearts? Nope, don't think so. After all, you're not God, although you sure do like to act that way.
Maybe you can glean a bit of insight from the following passage (heck, nobody says you have to believe it, just take it as advice):
Doctrine & Covenants Sections 64:9-10
Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
Damned nice of you to decide on your own that you're better than your god. I'll keep that in mind next time I encounter any of your rambling.
To quote a source that Arg may find more authoritative, I offer Matthew 6:15:
"But if you do not firgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
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SoxFan59
"Its fiction, but all the facts are true!"
uH OH arg,i THINK EVERYBODY ON THIS THREAD HAS CONVERTED TO mORMONISM BECAUSE OF YOU!
Somebody do me a favor, and start a new thread? I would do it, but that would seem very arrogantto me, i.e. that I'm special enough to deserve my own little thread. So, I'll be glad to keep this discussion alive, if one of you starts a new thread.
Adam
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