Sauron - Ultimate embodiment of evil?

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

In Lord of the Rings is Sauron the ultimate embodiment of evil? I understand that at some point in the past he was good. Correct? But is he by the time of Lord of the Rings (3rd age?) is he totally evil?

[jayjay]

In Lord of the Rings is Sauron the ultimate embodiment of evil? I understand that at some point in the past he was good. Correct? But is he by the time of Lord of the Rings (3rd age?) is he totally evil?

While Sauron started out as a Maia of Aulë, he was corrupted by Melkor and was completely given over to evil even in the First Age. He was Melkor's lieutenant in northern Beleriand, governing over the original Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion at the pass between Beleriand and Anfauglith. He killed Finrod Felagund in an arcane battle while Finrod was discharging his duty to Beren's father by accompanying Beren in the Quest for the Silmaril.

During the First Age he was, however, a secondary power of evil, under Melkor (Morgoth). Only after Melkor was exiled through the Gates of Night by the other Valar at the end of the First Age was the road cleared for Sauron to become the ultimate embodiment of Evil in Middle-Earth.

[MMI]

Sauron also feigned being on the side of the good-guys. During the second age, the power of the Numenoreans (the good men) was such that Sauron surrendered and feigned conversion to their side. And at another time he feigned friendship to induce the creation of the rings of power.

Even though Sauron is the most powerful single evil creature, he does not necessarily have dominion over all others. There were other lingering remnants of Melkor's forces - balrogs or dragons, etc that are both powerful and evil, though not necessarily slave to Sauron.

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

Is there any good left in Sauron? Was there ever any good in him?

[Quercus]

Sending the last post through the de-dialectizer, and then for fun back into business speak we get:

Sauron was a division head-type (definitely up there in management, but not one of the very senior execs). Melkor was a very senior vice president, and when he resigned to start a rival firm, Sauron went with him.

Melkor's venture did well for a while in Middle Earth with Sauron as a trusted VP, forming a formidable monopoly, but eventually the original company decided to assert themselves in this new market and crushed the new rival in a hostile takeover, destroying Melkor's career.

However, they forgot to take out a non-compete agreement when they downsized Sauron, leaving him free to eventually set up his own firm. While not the same level of executive as Melkor was, Sauron faced significantly less competition, as the original firm had decided to withdraw from the Middle Earth market. This allowed Sauron to become CEO and build a profitable venture, though not as large as Melkor's original venture.

The original firm that Melkor resigned from had withdrawn from Middle Earth markets, but did allow some executives (Gandalf) to serve as consultants to the various small businesses competing with Sauron.

[Quercus]

Whoops, I meant, sending jayjay's post through the de-dialectizer.
Sorry.

Anyway, carry on.

[Grey]

In Tolkien’s mythos nothing is ever evil at its beginning. Evil isn’t simply wanton destruction. It’s a combination of a desire to subjugate others to your will and a wanton disregard for the natural world. Notice the sterilized plains before Thangorodrim and the desert of Gogoroth in Mordor; chocking dust and ash.

Sauron, at the time of the War of the Ring, is the most complete embodiment of evil within Middle Earth. He seeks to subjugate all others, and spread a sterile darkness across the world. Would there be any good left in Sauron before his downfall? I would say yes, but divine grace would have to work damn hard to find it.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

In JRRT's mythos, the angelic Ainur were commanded by the Creator (Eru) to use their own skills and strengths to embellish and realize the creator's great theme of Creation.

Evil arouse out of Melkor's use of his own powers to inject designs of his own imaginings into Eru's theme, which were not in accordance with said theme. He did this to show off his own might, to bring greater glory unto himself, and because he wanted to bring into being new things of his own. Many other Ainur were dazzled by his display of power and creativity, and turned their own skills and strengths towards realizing his visions, rather than that of Eru. Sauron and the Valaraukar (balrogs) were chief among those Ainur who followed him.

But when Melkor found that all he tried to create was still constrained by the theme of Eru, he got majorly snitty and turned to domination and control, and coveted all of creation for his own. JRRT explores this concept extensively in Morgoth's Ring (book 10 in "History of Middle Earth Series). All of the world is considered Morgoth's Ring, because Melkor (later Morgoth) poured his will and malice and desire to dominate into it.

In Morgoth's Ring, it is suggested that one reason for Sauron to forge the One Ring in the first place was to enable him to tap into the power of his master's corruption, which was still embodied in the world.

So, yeah, both Morgoth and Sauron are pretty evil. They both were offered chances to repent, and faked it for a while, but never truly gave in (unlike Aulë and Ossë, who truly repented).

But JRRT was quite Catholic in his outlook, and I don't think he considered either of them truly irredeemable. After Dagor Dagorath, when all was annihilated in the battle between Morgoth and Manwë (each with their allies) the world was supposed to be recreated properly, as it was meant to have been. This could at least imply that Melkor would get his act together, and sing nice the way he was supposed to, during the act of creation!

What was the question again?

Oh, never mind!

[C K Dexter Haven]

I've said before, and I'll say again. Sauron is presented as the Great Embodiment of Evil, some sort of magnificent power desiring to be worshipped. But this is a deception.

The ultimate encounter with evil is not with Sauron, but with Gollum. And similarly, in the books, the other great evil power Saruman turns out to be nothing but nasty conniving Sharky.

Tolkien's message is clear: that the ultimate embodiment of Evil is not a great Satanic Power, but a nasty snivelling greedy petty selfish pathetic creature. So, no, Sauron isn't really the ultimate embodiment of evil. The ultimate embodiment of evil is Gollum

[rowrrbazzle]

I disagree completely. You don't have to be petty, etc., to be horribly evil. The character you mention is certainly evil, even an embodiment of evil, but hardly the ultimate.

Tolkien is on record saying that he liked Gollum better than all the other characters. Go to my home page http://www.geocities.com/rowrrbazzle/ and click on "Tolkien re Gollum" to hear him say that. He certainly wouldn't like him if he was the ultimate embodiment of evil. And at the end of the chapter "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol", Gollum would have been saved but for Sam's harsh reaction. If he's the UEOE, then that point of redemption would have never occurred.

[Rubystreak]

I thought the title of this thread was funny because by the time Lord of the Rings takes place, Sauron is completely disembodied, no?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I thought the title of this thread was funny because by the time Lord of the Rings takes place, Sauron is completely disembodied, no?
No. That was PJ's take on it in the movies. Sauron was fully embodied in LOTR.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

And again, thank you to Qadgop and jayjay. Many hearts and flowers at you guys. You never fail to teach me whenever there's a LOTR thread.

[jayjay]

And again, thank you to Qadgop and jayjay. Many hearts and flowers at you guys. You never fail to teach me whenever there's a LOTR thread.

Aw, shucks!

And aren't you supposed to be pushing a baby out, young lady? Get to it!

[DocCathode]

C K Dexter Grey Havens I also disagree in the extreme

I admit that I still haven't gotten around to reading The Simarillion or HOMES. However, in the LOTR trilogy we see Gollum sincerely take steps toward redemption. When the elves are holding him captive, he really does seem to be coming out of the darkness. But Sauron sends his crows, who push Gollum back into the darkness. Gollum genuinely begins to care for Frodo, until Frodo is forced to betray him to Faramir. The UEOE wouldn't show signs of remorse, or rehabilitation. Gollum does.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Just because redemption is possible doesn't negate my statement. To Tolkien, redemption is ALWAYS possible. Gandalf gives Saruman the chance at Isengard which he rejects. Boromir is redeemed by his heroism after he fell to temptation. Frodo tries very hard to give Gollum the opportunity. Even Wormtongue is allowed to choose whether to stay with Theoden.

My point about the ultimate encounter with Evil is that Tolkien wants to show that "Ultimate Embodiment" of Evil is NOT something grand and powerful to be feared, but something small and petty to be pitied.

[Humble Servant]

There is no redemption for orcs.

It is so very useful to have an enemy that can be slaughtered without compunction.







Should I apologize for riding this hobbyhorse again? Or is it safe to assume I'm under the radar and can repeat myself as often as I want? That would be pretty cool. Everyone I know IRL is sick of all my best stories; maybe I can tell them here over and over. Each re-post will gratify my set convictions, but always be fresh to everyone else. It's a crank's dream. Let me tell you about that time we tried to grill a frozen turkey, and that time I heard a woman ask her date if deer migrated. Oh, and have I mentioned that I finished HOMES?

[Chronos]

I think that "there is no redemption for Orcs" is more just a matter of definition, though. Orcs are (presumably) corrupted Elves, no? It's my impression that a person born an orc could in principle, through much difficult effort, be redeemed, but that said person would by virtue of such redemption no longer be an orc, but a true elf again. He might even grow to look more Elvish, as the evil influence within departs.

[Humble Servant]

[mounts hobbypony] Now, see, that might be a possible resolution of how to account for sentient beings with free will whom we are nonetheless permitted to view as irredeemable and to slay in heaps (keeping score). Maybe they are able to turn themselves back into their original stock if they have any desire to do so, but are sword fodder until they take that step.

JRRT himself didn't have a resolution.

As you know, JRRT was not sure where the orcs came from. He decided at one point, and was probably certain, that Morgoth couldn't create anything with independent life--that could come solely from Eru (Aule's dwarves before they were adopted by Eru apparently functioned as automatons of Aule's will, collapsing like puppets whenever Aule turned his attnetion away from them). This is why the orcs had to be a corruption of something else, the best candidates being elves. BUT, elves have souls and free will to do good or evil--it would not be consistent or theologically right for JRRT to allow Morgoth to remove those attributes from Eru's creatures. Nonetheless, the orcs are not robots and can function and survive without Morgoth's or Sauron's attnetion. There is even that one scene where two orcs discuss setting up a nice little pillaging and raping racket of their own, out from under the eye of the big boss. Nonetheless, they are treated as wholly evil and not thought to be capable of repentance or redemption (while, as noted, Saruman, Wormtongue, Gollum and humans, elves and dwarves generally are).

It is to me the most inexplicable and troubling aspect of JRRT's world, which is otherwise well-nuanced on capacity for good, evil, repentance and redemption.

[/dismount]

[Quercus]

Yeah, what Humble said.
And it's interesting to contrast the scores of dead orcs that prove the hero's worth with the battle between Faramir's men and the Southron men they ambush. At one point Sam gets a close up of a dead Southroner and reflects on how the poor sap was deluded into leaving his home and coming all this way just to be killed, with Sam deciding he doesn't like Men vs Men battles much.

[rowrrbazzle]

Just because redemption is possible doesn't negate my statement. To Tolkien, redemption is ALWAYS possible.Well, I suppose you could say theoretically redemption is always available and Morgoth or Sauron could freely choose to repent, ask for forgiveness, and be redeemed. But practically, they would never choose it. Boromir is redeemed by his heroism after he fell to temptation.Boromir was trying to counteract the mess he contributed to, and he was not completely successful. I have a hard time calling that heroic or redeeming.My point about the ultimate encounter with Evil is that Tolkien wants to show that "Ultimate Embodiment" of Evil is NOT something grand and powerful to be feared, but something small and petty to be pitied.To me the word "ultimate" is an absolute, in this case meaning impossible to be redeemed.

I assumed you used "ultimate" as meaning "greatest". If you mean it just as "final", then I'll grant the point. Saruman and Gollum had the end that comes to all evil shorn of power.

But with respect to their original positions and the amount of evil they produced, Saruman's evil was greater than Gollum's, Sauron's greater still, and since there can be no fall greater than Morgoth's, his evil was ultimate in both senses.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

It is to me the most inexplicable and troubling aspect of JRRT's world, which is otherwise well-nuanced on capacity for good, evil, repentance and redemption.
Well, since you read HOMES, you realize that it was troubling to JRRT too. If he'd lived long enough, and kept writing, he'd have written himself out of that moral ambiguity somehow. He'd groped in the past for ways to turn them into fallen humans, leaving the elves out of the picture completely. But that didn't really solve the dilemma. Then he considered making them descended from some dark Ainur spirit, a la the lesser children of Ungoliantë.

If only he'd had World enough, and Time. :(

[C K Dexter Haven]

I should have added the footnote that redemption (to Tolkien) is only possible for humans (and, presumably, other mortals like hobbits.) "Redemption" is tied to mortality, the Gift of Men.

[Rubystreak]

No. That was PJ's take on it in the movies. Sauron was fully embodied in LOTR.

There were several occasions where Sauron was disembodied: after the fall of Numenor, and after Isildur cut the Ring from his finger for quite some time. So there were times when he was the disembodiment of evil, though you are correct in saying that by the time of the War of the Rings, he had regained shape. I'm looking in the Silmarillion now to recall what shape his final embodiment took, but I'm not finding it. Fill me in?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I'm looking in the Silmarillion now to recall what shape his final embodiment took, but I'm not finding it. Fill me in?

"Letters" # 246 does elaborate some: "Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his
power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."

Combine that with JRRT's statement in Appendix A of ROTK:
"Sauron was indeed caught in the wreck of Numenor, so that the bodily form in which he had long walked perished; but he fled back to Middle-earth, a spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind. He was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone."

So spake the SubCreator.

[jayjay]

I should have added the footnote that redemption (to Tolkien) is only possible for humans (and, presumably, other mortals like hobbits.) "Redemption" is tied to mortality, the Gift of Men.

Define redemption.

After the War of Wrath, the Noldor were allowed the chance to repent and return to Valinor. Most of them did. Galadriel did not, allowing her pride to imprison her in Middle-Earth. Her constant vigilance against Sauron and most especially her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power redeemed her and she was allowed to take ship to the West at the end of the Third Age.

How is this not redemption?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I should have added the footnote that redemption (to Tolkien) is only possible for humans (and, presumably, other mortals like hobbits.) "Redemption" is tied to mortality, the Gift of Men.
Yes, cite please.

The "gift" of men is described as: "Therefore {Eru} willed that the hearts of men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but that they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. But the elves die not...but the sons of man die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope." From Silmarillion, of course. :D

I don't recall JRRT writing on redemption in the later HOMES books where he spent some time alluding to the downfall of the fathers of the Edain but I certainly might have overlooked it.

[Hamish]

Quercus, could we get a URL for that de-dialectizer?

[Humble Servant]

If he'd lived long enough, and kept writing, he'd have written himself out of that moral ambiguity somehow.You do have faith in the man, dontcha? The published work is riddled with both independent-action orcs and unthinking orc slaughters because it is not morally wrong to kill orcs--you don't have to examine their actions for possible good or repentance because it cannot be there. Unless we allow him to rewrite the published work (which he was always reluctant to do), he's got a pretty tough row to hoe. (He may have moved towards making the orcs more like automatons--you can see a hint of that in the scenes where they quail when Sauron's will turns away from them--in which case they would lose their slippery self-interest which gave them what little charm they had.)

Still, it is nice to see that kind of faith in this age of the anti-hero and all.

I'm not sure that redemption is being used as a "technical" term here--for my part, I used it in the sense of "turning away from and repenting bad stuff, and being forgiven." It's the first part I don't think the orcs are capable of, making the question of whether they can be forgiven moot.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

You do have faith in the man, dontcha?
Sure, why not? He started as a story-teller and grew into a sub-creator, and he took his role far more seriously that I ever would have. Heck, when the Bible is littered with stories advocating the mass slaughter of the enemies of the righteous, including smashing in the heads of their children, JRRT can certainly be forgiven for drawing from that source (among others) to create his fables.

And since JRRT never did state definitively just what the orcs' situation was vis a vis souls, forgiveness, etc. then there's not really much point in our declaring our own opinions as fact.