Fuck you Diogenes

[duffer]

That's right, fuck you Diogenes. There are too many threads to link to, and anyone reading this is probably a Pit reader. They'll know what I'm I'm referring to.

You've made a shitload of comparisons between Hitler and Bush tonight. Kerry lost, get over it. I was planning on logging in tonight and taking my lumps for supporting Bush tonight if he lost. All I see from you is some form of Hitler being better than Bush. In multiple threads.

Look, I have (well, had) a lot of respect for you after an initial period of thinking you were way the fuck out there. Now you've confirmed it. You're a loon. I hope I can regain respect as I normally enjoy your posts.

But this goes too far. Comparing the President to Hitler. I know it's used for hyperbole sometimes, but the frequency you've used it tonight makes me think you believe it's a valid comparison.

If you honestly (I'm calling you out here Dio) think that Bush even close to Hitler, well you know what you have to do. If you love your country so much and think Bush is worse than Hitler (as you said "Hitler was honest")...well.

Oh, before you completley go off the deep end, please explain to our Jewish friends how Bush is less evil than Hitler. I'm sure the "honesty" part will give them a chuckle.






Please get some help. It's going to be a few weeks before I get to the cities so I can buy you a drink and talk you back from the ledge.

[even sven]

Look, we're scared.

Bush is expansionist, supports pre-emptive action, and has shown no qualms about curbing freedoms at home "for the sake of security".

Countries don't put up big neon warning signs when they start taking a turn to the dark side. It happens subtly. It happens with the support of the masses. Only hindsight can tell if things will get better soon or if things will just start coming down. Nobody knows when to leave a country because things are getting bad. Nobody knows where that little point between "a bit bad but we'll live through it" and "wow, this is the worst thing in the world" is. By the time you know these things for sure, it's too late.

Comparing Bush to Hitler is a bit extreme, but it's tempting to want to remind people that evil can be embraced by a modern Western country- that nobody is exempt from it. We're afraid and we want people to be careful.

[Liberal]

Pissing people off doesn't make them careful. It alienates them.

[Bruce_Daddy]

Yeah, he kind of stands in stark contrast to some of the classier posters around here. (gobear comes to mind).

[duffer]

I have no problem with vigilance. That's why I'm a firm supporter of the 2nd ammendment. I'll use my guns in an effort to avoid a Hitler-esque takeover of the US. But to use Hitler as a seemingly valid comparison to Bush, literally, is more than a bit over the top. If Dio is so worried about Ashcroft and the Patriot Act taking away his freedoms, why is he still posting this shit without being thrown in a jail cell? :dubious:

And, yes, gobear is a class act. Took me some time, but I kinda like him now.




What? No, not like that. Um, no! Well, maybe if I get really lonely. ;)

[ShockingAlberto]

Good thing Clinton was only accused of getting a blowjob. Nope, no one ever said he comitted murder or anything like that. :rolleyes:

While I agree that perhaps the Bush-Hitler comparison is extreme, opening a pit thread about it isn't going to help. It's the emotion of the moment right now. Hell, I didn't see anyone on the right crying when the Swifties were saying John Kerry shot a little boy in the back.

[Roland Orzabal]

I had one hell of a post whipped up a few minutes ago detailing the length of my emotional reaction to Bush's victory. We'll put it this way: I ain't happy about it. I wrote the post, I titled it, I hovered the mouse over "Submit Thread"...and then I slowly backed away from the computer, reread what I had written, copied it to the clipboard, and waited for my cooler head to prevail.

I continue to be incontrovertibly Not Happy about the results of tonight's election. I have my reasons for that, and I wrote them out. Through a touch of self-restraint, however, I saved myself from acting like a belligerent ass, from ridiculing people whom, at the end of the day, I still ultimately respect, and from alienating folks I would like to consider my friends. Those of you who agree with me already know my feelings, and it would be pointless to repeat them to you. Those of you who disagree, whether you know my feelings or not, you don't share them, and it would be pointless and immature to shove them in your faces out of spite for the fact that you won (and you did win). My catharsis is complete. I need not force it upon you.

I won't tell you to calm down, Diogenes. Og only knows it took me more than a moment to regain coherence, and I am still a touch shaken. I will tell you, unequivocably, to quit acting like an ass. Compare Bush to Hitler all you'd like, but do it in your own head. You're not convincing anybody here who didn't agree with you to begin with. And one more thing...we lost. Get it through your head. More than your emotional reaction, it is this insistance that the results must somehow be other than they are that undermines the possibility of anybody respecting your viewpoint. Emotion is understandable. Denial and illogic are not. I ask that you step away from the keyboard, and return when you can accept what is, regardless of how distasteful you may find it. Until you can do that, nobody, of any political persuasion, is going to listen to you.

[duffer]

Good thing Clinton was only accused of getting a blowjob. Nope, no one ever said he comitted murder or anything like that. :rolleyes:

While I agree that perhaps the Bush-Hitler comparison is extreme, opening a pit thread about it isn't going to help. It's the emotion of the moment right now. Hell, I didn't see anyone on the right crying when the Swifties were saying John Kerry shot a little boy in the back.


What the fuck are you talking about?

[ShockingAlberto]

What the fuck are you talking about?

*sigh*

My apologies, Duffer. English isn't my first language and it's quite late (or early, really). Forgive me if I'm not clear.

Disregard that post as a whole, if you'd like.

[duffer]

Roland, you may have made my point better than I did. (actually, I'm sure of it) Your subscription renewal is on me. Now stop pissing me off! :p

(Note to mods: the offer is valid, please let me know how to do it)


I'd add a qualifier that you don't like TfF, but that's a lost cause. :D

[Shrinking Violet]

Bravo Roland Orzabal - you don't Shout a load of nonsense, but prefer to make sense of what seems to be a Mad World! :)

(Sorry - couldn't resist :o )

[duffer]

*sigh*

My apologies, Duffer. English isn't my first language and it's quite late (or early, really). Forgive me if I'm not clear.

Disregard that post as a whole, if you'd like.

No need for an apology.

I saw a reference to Clinton's blowjobs and wondered what it had to do with Bush-Hitler.

Then I saw the mention of opening a Pit thread wouldn't help. It's in reference to another Pit thread. Hey, you laugh or cry. Seems like in cyberspace you pit or, well...

And of course there was no reference to Kerry shooting anyone, much less a boy.


And if you apologize for English being a second language one more time, I'll pit you! I can read German and can speak it in a limited fashion, but would be lost on a German message board. The fact that you have a grasp of English to the point of being understandable on an English language board, well, you're one up on me.

[Revtim]

You know, just because one thing is compared to another, that does not mean the person comparing thinks they are identical in every possible way and to the finest degree.

In other words, if somebody say, compares Bush's campaign tactics to Hitler, that does not mean that person thinks Bush grew a little mustache and set up concentration camps to exterminate Jews and married Eva Braun and killled himself in bunker and his skull is a drawer in Russia.

[duffer]

You know, just because one thing is compared to another, that does not mean the person comparing thinks they are identical in every possible way and to the finest degree.

In other words, if somebody say, compares Bush's campaign tactics to Hitler, that does not mean that person thinks Bush grew a little mustache and set up concentration camps to exterminate Jews and married Eva Braun and killled himself in bunker and his skull is a drawer in Russia.

You have seen the posts, right? (no, really, no snarkiness, you've seen them?)

[Uncommon Sense]

Poor Dioigenes, He even tried to turn GD into the Pit last night.

I hope he settles down. I actually look for his posts in most threads, just to see what he has to say.

[davenportavenger]

Seems to me the Bush/Hitler comparison wasn't about who is more evil (I think we all agree it's Hitler), but instead, who hides their evil better. Hitler wasn't shy about the fact that he was exterminating an entire people. Everyone in Germany was totally clear that supporting Hitler meant supporting genocide. With Bush, you get a lot of doublespeak about "security" and "family values" and so on. Bush won't say what he really supports. He won't come out and say "I want to ban abortion" or "I want to institute school prayer." Instead, you're left to puzzle out his speeches like a political detective, figuring out what exactly he means. Just look at the name of the SSM ban and how it was worded. It didn't say "vote for this if you want to ban SSM." It said "vote for this to preserve marriage between a man and a woman," which has a decidedly different tone and flavor.

If my president was for genocide, I certainly wouldn't want him to doll it up by saying "I favor strategic population decreases and a return to our cultural heritage." I want him to fucking say "hey, I want to kill people, you in?"

And yes, Hitler is worse than Bush. However, Bush is more hypocritical than Hitler. He does wrap his views up in more doublespeak than Hitler. Yes, Hitler was unequivocably more evil than Bush, but it was a more straightforward kind of evil. I think that's what Dio was saying.

[Who_me?]

I don't like GW Bush. I don't like him at all and think he's been a lousy President. He isn't Hitler, hell, he ain't even Pol Pot or Idi Amin Dada...

It pisses me off when conservatives vilify liberals, it bothers me just as much the other way around. It pissed me off when I saw Diogenes posting last night how the Republican were cheating because they were leading in Florida. I think the whole thing is stupid, everything boils down to the left verus the right now and we are splintering ourselves as a nation and as a people.

I've always thought of voting as something to do as an informed citizen. Study the candidates and vote for the best person for the job. I've also always thought of anyone voting straight ticket as taking the lazy way out and the stupid way out. In some cases, of course, one party may have all the best people for the job but I don't consider that going straight party.

I said before that I don't like GW Bush, I don't care much for Kerry either. Neither do I like Nader or Badnarik. Who did I have to vote for? Why can't I find a candidate that is a centrist? Why can't I find a candidate that I can assume is honest and forthright? Why can't I find someone who doesn't attack and demonize his/her opponent?

We, as citizens of these United States (as a group), are no better. We have several conservative posters here that ridicule liberal ideas and philosophies, and we have liberal posters here who demonize conservatives and blame them for everything bad that happens. We have radio commentators who lambaste the "lefties" and we have others in various medias who return the favor against the"far right". I, personally, am sick of it.

[CLedet]

Look, we're scared.

Bush is expansionist, supports pre-emptive action, and has shown no qualms about curbing freedoms at home "for the sake of security".

Countries don't put up big neon warning signs when they start taking a turn to the dark side. It happens subtly. It happens with the support of the masses. Only hindsight can tell if things will get better soon or if things will just start coming down. Nobody knows when to leave a country because things are getting bad. Nobody knows where that little point between "a bit bad but we'll live through it" and "wow, this is the worst thing in the world" is. By the time you know these things for sure, it's too late.

Comparing Bush to Hitler is a bit extreme, but it's tempting to want to remind people that evil can be embraced by a modern Western country- that nobody is exempt from it. We're afraid and we want people to be careful.

Thanks even sven, it's stupidity like this that pushed the voter turn out to nearly, if not, record numbers. Hell down here in N'awlins some precincts are reporting close to 100% turn out. President Bush thanks you and so do I.

[Sevastopol]

and what's with this the Cynic business. We get the reference OK? Plain Diogenes is just fine.

[KidCharlemagne]

I have an honest question. When was Diogenes ever respectful such that this could be considered a fall from grace?

[Starving Artist]

You guys are gonna think I'm crazy, but cut poor Dio some slack. There is much about him that is good. If he reacts with much more ire than the average bear, it may just be because feels pain and outrage that much more than the average bear. I don't think it's easy being him.

:: SA ducks and covers ::

[tdn]

I think it was Mark Crispin Miller who said (I'm paraphrasing):

"When fascism comes to this country it's not going to be wearing a toothbrush mustache and a luger in its belt and go goosestepping around the malls. That was Germany. When fascism comes to this country it's going to have an American flag pin in its lapel and a cross hanging from its neck and it's going to appear absolutely 100% American and Patriotic."

I'm scared too. I honestly think that this country is headed towards some new flavor of fascism (In that fascism is corporatism wedded to blind jingoism fed by vilification of an outgroup -- exactly what bushco has delivered).

No, Bush isn't as bad as Hitler. But he's at least as bad as Moussolini. ;)

[tdn]

You guys are gonna think I'm crazy, but cut poor Dio some slack. There is much about him that is good. If he reacts with much more ire than the average bear, it may just be because feels pain and outrage that much more than the average bear. I don't think it's easy being him.

Wow, Starving Artist, I actually agree with you on something. I feel pain and outrage as well, mostly because I live in a country so full of fucking morons.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

and what's with this the Cynic business. We get the reference OK? Plain Diogenes is just fine.
Just plain Diogenes was taken when I registered.

[MMI]

One minor quibble to add (here, because all of the other threads where this is being discussed are proceeding handily on-topic): Hitler was never elected to nothin' in a contested election. The Nazi's (with their allied parties) were never more than a plurality and Hitler was not a candidate. He was appointed to high office by Hindenburg. NOT ELECTED.

(I personally consider the comparison to be both pointlessly inaccurate and over-the-top alienating and offensive. If you wish to compare Bush to historical German leaders I think Kaiser Wilhelm II works really well. (heck, I could probably write dickety-odd paragraphs on the subject (I'd say twenty but the Kaiser stole twenty from us)))

[Sevastopol]

Just plain Diogenes was taken when I registered.

I apologise most profoundly.

FWIW, my preferred name was also unavailable.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'll stick with Hitler. The comparisons are more apt. Illegal invasions, death camps, naked bigotry, demands for mindless, fascistic devotion. Hitler was smarter and more charismatic, though.

[Silentgoldfish]

I'll stick with Hitler. The comparisons are more apt. Illegal invasions, death camps, naked bigotry, demands for mindless, fascistic devotion. Hitler was smarter and more charismatic, though.

DEATH camps?? What the hell are you smoking tonight?

[duffer]

I'll stick with Hitler. The comparisons are more apt. Illegal invasions, death camps, naked bigotry, demands for mindless, fascistic devotion. Hitler was smarter and more charismatic, though.

I'm onto you now, sly fox. I can't believe it took me so long. See you in other threads. ;)

[tdn]

DEATH camps?? What the hell are you smoking tonight?

Yeah, that was over the top. They're not Auscwitz, they're Stalag 13. Except our Colonel Klink is far less bright.

[yellowval]

So I'm guessing this would be a bad time to insinuate that Bush might be the anti-Christ? ;)

[duffer]

So I'm guessing this would be a bad time to insinuate that Bush might be the anti-Christ? ;)

Yup, since you'd be late. Should have been here Jan 19, 2001 :smack:

[Dunderman]

continuity eror, Hitler didn't go to election on the genocide ticket. It isn't clear how much the German people knew of the Final Solution, but it's clear that it wasn't official policy and common knowledge.

MMI, Hitler was elected and managed to get enough of a majority that he could change the constitution and turn himself into a dictator. But he was elected.

Oh, and Diogenes would do well to calm down.

[yellowval]

Yup, since you'd be late. Should have been here Jan 19, 2001 :smack:

Cite?
I'm assuming there was a thread on the topic. And before 9/11, too? Sounds like an interesting read!

[Diogenes the Cynic]

DEATH camps?? What the hell are you smoking tonight?
The Bushies want to install a "death chamber" (http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_plans_for_executions_at_guantanamo.htm) at Gitmo and then start having secret trials and assembly line executions.

[booka]

I'll stick with Hitler. The comparisons are more apt. Illegal invasions, death camps, naked bigotry, demands for mindless, fascistic devotion. Hitler was smarter and more charismatic, though.
You just don't know when to shut the fuck up.

[Kythereia]

Diogenes, any reference to Hitler is extremely loaded and is bound to offend many people--as you can already see--and possibly hurt some of them. Comparing Bush to Hitler demonstrates a lack of sensitivity about the topic.

[Guinastasia]

I would just like to say that, as a leftist, Diogenes does not speak for me, in fact, he's embarassing me right now.

However, I'm extremely pissed off about the election right now, and I too feel like throwing a tantrum. I'm not going to, but I won't say it wouldn't feel damn good.

[beergeek279]

As a libertarian (whose biggest regret was that one of these guys was gonna win and neither one was a victory), I admit that I was kinda hoping that Kerry would win, since he would gridlock with Congress (not supermajority, of course...would destroy the whole idea) and each party's worst ideas would nullify each other out, and now I can hope that this election might just give Bush pause in destroying civil liberties (not to mention that the executive branch can have a big influence on social liberty but that fiscal liberty is generally controlled more by Congress.)

That said, I have to admit that it was people like Dio that made me NOT want to support Kerry in any way.......the tinfoil-like pronounciations of things such as "most of the country are inherently idiots" and a martial law imposition on November 2nd (not to mention the Hitler references) just frightened me away from any support. I don't know....maybe if I'd spent a lot of time on FreeRepublic, things may have been different, but I was on the Straight Dope.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Bah!

It's perfectly valid to compair Bush to Hitler.

They're both boys.
They've both lead powerful nations.
They both enjoyed Scrabble.
Hitler had a moustash, and Bush doesn't, but I bet Bush could grow one if he wanted.
They both have H's in their last name.

See? They're practically twins!

[Mojo]

You know who else didn't respond with grace or class when his side lost? Hitler.

[UncleBeer]

Just plain Diogenes was taken when I registered.
And the mods wouldn't let him have Diogenes the Asshole.

Jesus, man. You always been a bit over the top, but it seems you have utterly lost your sense of perspective.

[ExTank]

I had one hell of a post whipped up a few minutes ago detailing the length of my emotional reaction to Bush's victory. We'll put it this way: I ain't happy about it. I wrote the post, I titled it, I hovered the mouse over "Submit Thread"...and then I slowly backed away from the computer, reread what I had written, copied it to the clipboard, and waited for my cooler head to prevail.

You too, huh?

I had a good one all put together, then I just C & P'd it into an e-mail and saved it. Like a gun in a holster, or the shotgun in the closet, it's probably best that it stays there.

[buttonjockey308]

And the mods wouldn't let him have Diogenes the Asshole.

Ha!

Seriously, the comparison sort of has that " I'm late for my appointment at the rubber ramada" feel to it.

[wisernow]

As a non-American, I tend to agree with DtC, not in the true sense that Hitler=Bush, but for the many similarities that are evident. Hitler brought war to the world, Bush has set out on that path and there is no knowing where the war monger is headed, where he will stop, and what evil he will do. They are both evil! It is a sad day for America and and even sadder day for the world! As they say history has seen massive and powerul empires falling to dust, sometimes I think that maybe the time has come and this is how America is going eventually destroy itself. Sad.

[World Eater]

That said, I have to admit that it was people like Dio that made me NOT want to support Kerry in any way.......the tinfoil-like pronounciations of things such as "most of the country are inherently idiots" and a martial law imposition on November 2nd (not to mention the Hitler references) just frightened me away from any support.

You should rethink this.

[tdn]

As a non-American, I tend to agree with DtC, not in the true sense that Hitler=Bush, but for the many similarities that are evident. Hitler brought war to the world, Bush has set out on that path and there is no knowing where the war monger is headed, where he will stop, and what evil he will do. They are both evil! It is a sad day for America and and even sadder day for the world! As they say history has seen massive and powerul empires falling to dust, sometimes I think that maybe the time has come and this is how America is going eventually destroy itself. Sad.

See, that's just it. Doggy Knees may be off the deep end with a comparison to Hitler, but we may very well be looking at the New American Fascism. A lot of the warning signs are there. And maybe we're not -- maybe I'm just being paranoid. But I think we'd be smart to keep an eye on things.

[ExTank]

No, Worldeater[b], listen to [b]beergeek.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a racist, homophobic asshole that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative an ignorant religious fruitcake that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a Nazi that may have cost Kerry the election.

Every time I turn on HBO, I get Bill fuckling Maher and his hand-picked panel of liberal wankers (with one token conservative getting shouted down to make him feel "fair and balanced") telling me that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot, a moron, the dumbest fucking goober that ever drew breath, a racist, a homophobe, a Nazi, and every bad epithet that the liberal arsenal has at its disposal.

Bush at 51%? Shit. I honestly thought that it would be higher than that.

In a way, I kind of admire Dio's "Fuck you; I give you nothing! NOTHING!" attitude.

But only to a very limited extent.

[tdn]

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a racist, homophobic asshole that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative an ignorant religious fruitcake that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a Nazi that may have cost Kerry the election.

Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don't buy it for a second.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I haven't called anybody a racist.

[ExTank]

Dio: If you say you haven't, then I apologize for implying that you have.

But it is people like you (clearly bitterly disappointed and rancorously partisan) that have, here on the SDMB and around the world today.

My eloquence has left me (I'm approaching Message Board Burnout), but Liberal summed up my feeling nicely here. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5447487&postcount=26)

[John Corrado]

I haven't called anybody a racist.

From this thread: Congratulations to Bush and his supporters (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284482&page=3)


You voted for a guy you knew to be a bigot. You can't clean that off of yourselves. You couldn't vote for a guy in a Klan robe and then say, "well, I disagree with the cross burning and the yellow triangles for Jews amendment but I agree with other stuff."

You voted for a guy in a Klan robe and you're going to have to own that.

[Chastain86]

I haven't called anybody a racist.

I beg to differ. Quote yours, bolding mine:

I'll stick with Hitler. The comparisons are more apt. Illegal invasions, death camps, naked bigotry, demands for mindless, fascistic devotion. Hitler was smarter and more charismatic, though.

Unless you'd care to argue that calling someone a big isn't the same as calling someone a racist.

And while we're at it, you need to highlight the portion of that linked article that points to definitive proof that the U.S. plans to carry out executions. AFAI can see, the only "proof" The Guardian can dredge up is the sentiment that a courtroom is being built on the premises. The executions are simply conjecture on the part of the author, and the article bears no facts to back up the claim.

Propping up a stupid point against a shoddy tabloid article is shaky at best, cousin. You'd do best to cut your losses, stop talking, and wait until this thread blows over.

[RedFury]

Chin up, Dio.

I share both you passion and concerns about the future of America under the new Bush mandate. I am simply amazed -- and more than a bit disgusted -- that your countrymen and women would ultimately reward the criminal behavior of this Administration and the ensuing chaos it has brought to the world by legitimizing his regime.

For as much as during the past four years there was always the excuse "well, Americans didn't put him there," that is obviously gone now. America has gone off the deep end, its head buried in an imaginary a world of fear and loathing where the only defense is religious fervor and bombs galore. State terrorism sanctioned by the masses and The Almighty, with Bush the hand-picked representative of the latter. Is it any wonder, given the above, that they can afford to "create their own reality"?

Grim picture and tough and bloody times ahead no doubt. Ironically, it appears that you'll be losing many of those very 'freedoms' you're supposedly 'spreading throughout the world.' That US as a police state, who would have thunk it just a short five years ago?

All that said, allow yourself all the time you need to grieve and express your frustrations. But once you do get it out of your system -- and you will, for its a dead-end road and you're too smart not to realize that it leads nowhere -- you need to come back, stronger than ever. For it is precisely Americans such as yourself that the rest of the world is counting on as allies to put and end to this insanity.

And we will, my friend, we will. They may have won this battle, but this war's only just begun. Sooner or later, BushCo is going down. You can only defy reality for so long -- as Hitler found out in the end.

Remember, you are not alone -- in fact, quite the opposite. You're part of a great majority.

Cheers.

[DrDeth]

You know, normally, I don't join in on thses PIT bashings. I don't like the ruel that the PIT can be used to flame other posters.

But gawd, dude- DtC- you have gone way, way too far. Are you off your meds or something? :eek:

[tdn]

Unless you'd care to argue that calling someone a big isn't the same as calling someone a racist.

There are types of bigotry that are not racial. One can be bigoted towards people of a certain sexual orientation, for instance. Or towards practitioners (or non-practitioners) of a particular religion. I suspect that is what Dio meant with his charges of bigotry.

[furt]

Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don't buy it for a second.Absolutely.

I personally know several anyone-but-a-Liberal voters.

[FilmGeek]

I beg to differ. Quote yours, bolding mine:
Unless you'd care to argue that calling someone a big isn't the same as calling someone a racist.

Calling someone a bigot is absolutely not the same thing as calling someone a racist.

from www.m-w.com
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

i.e.: Gays and straights don't have the same rights. Absolutely nothing to do with race.

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

[Bryan Ekers]

It's the emotion of the moment right now.

*choke* *cough* The moment?! Hasn't Diogenes been riding this pony for some time, now?

[John Mace]

From this thread: Congratulations to Bush and his supporters (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284482&page=3)

To be fair, Dio called BUSH a racist, by implication, but I think he meant that he didn't call any posters here racist.

[John Corrado]

There are types of bigotry that are not racial. One can be bigoted towards people of a certain sexual orientation, for instance. Or towards practitioners (or non-practitioners) of a particular religion. I suspect that is what Dio meant with his charges of bigotry.

Except that, as I posted, he stated that Bush was a Klansman, or at least the moral equivalent thereof.

[Uncommon Sense]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Diogenes equated homophobes to racists? Or was that just the general feeling I got from him?

[Chastain86]

Merriam-Webster aside, FilmGeek, I'm pretty sure of what context Dio meant "bigoted." Especially considering John Corrado's much-more-damning cite.

[Debaser]

It seems like just about every week there is some kind of discussion on the SDMB about what a jerk DtC is. During every one of these threads people come along and act so surprised at how Diogenes is behaving. "It's so unlike him." :rolleyes:

I've been on the board since 2001 and he's been a jerk consistently since then. When was this time when he was a rational poster who had anything to contribute besides anti-bush rantings and insults? Back on the AOL board? During the Carter administration? The age of dreams?

[JDeMobray]

Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don't buy it for a second.I know of two, personally. I would guess there are more.

For whatever it's worth, I tried to talk them out of it and in my state it turned out not to matter, but don't believe that it doesn't happen. People don't appreciate being talked down to full-time.

Also, I think the Democratic party is desperately out of touch with America. I voted Gore in 2000. I voted Kerry in 2004. I've only been able to vote in three presidential elections in my life and in both of them I've been reduced to voting against someone. When do I get to vote for somebody? When are they going to run someone who wants to LEAD.

For better or worse, George W. Bush is a leader. The Democratic candidates he's opposed have been these useless candidates of compromise too scared of offending .05% of the voter base to take a stand on much of anything.

Well, maybe next time.

(Oh, and Dio is indeed acting like an ass.)

[KidCharlemagne]

No, Worldeater[b], listen to [b]beergeek.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a racist, homophobic asshole that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative an ignorant religious fruitcake that may have cost Kerry the election.

It's people like Dio calling every conservative a Nazi that may have cost Kerry the election.

Every time I turn on HBO, I get Bill fuckling Maher and his hand-picked panel of liberal wankers (with one token conservative getting shouted down to make him feel "fair and balanced") telling me that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot, a moron, the dumbest fucking goober that ever drew breath, a racist, a homophobe, a Nazi, and every bad epithet that the liberal arsenal has at its disposal.


This is true. The leftists are so extreme in their arguments that any worthwhile
points get lost amongst the superlatives. When I came to the board I wasn't too interested in politics though i did lean libertarian. After reading the arguments on GD, I consistently found that the right's arguments were concise, unemotional, and civil. The liberal arguments were often fallacious, uncivil, and unconciliatory in the face of reasonable contrary data. Mind you I'm not speaking of the content of the arguments, just the form. The left would ascribe every news event to the machinations of a Bush cabal. Pretty soon you just stop listening to them. Any wheat they offer just gets buried amongst the chaff and it all gets thrown out. They come off as paranoid and unreasonable and therefore have little ability to attract anyone to their way of thinking.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

From this thread: Congratulations to Bush and his supporters (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284482&page=3)
I was talking about anti-gay bigotry and drawing an analogy to racism. I have not called anyone (including Bush) a racist.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Except that, as I posted, he stated that Bush was a Klansman, or at least the moral equivalent thereof.
The moral equivalent, yes.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

To be fair, Dio called BUSH a racist, by implication, but I think he meant that he didn't call any posters here racist.
Or Bush either. I was calling him a bigot, but not a racial bigot. The "klan robe" was an anology for those Bush voters who keep wanting to separate themselves for Bush's bigoted policies. I'm saying that voting for an avowed homophobe makes those who voted for him just as culpable as if they had voted for a guy in a klan robe.

Yeesh...when did people lose the ability to understand analogies around here?

[PunditLisa]

This election is causing me to reconsider my position on legalizing marijuana. If there's one thing the country could use right now, it's a big-assed bong and Pink Floyd cranked up loud enough to hear it on the dark side of the moon.

Dio, go feed the ducks.

[beergeek279]

You should rethink this.

Well, first of all, rethinking this is rather academic at this point, wouldn't you say?

Secondly, I don't post much in Great Debates (mostly because I don't feel my debating skills are up to date enough to do a fair justice to the positions I believe), but I read it regularly, and I didn't just come to this yesterday but had felt this way for a while.
Perhaps those in GD could be called ideologues, and nobody's really going to change their mind on much of anything so it didn't matter there. But Joe Public reading that on a pro-Kerry (or pro-Bush) site would likely be turned off of a candidate saying that.
(Ohh, and since I didn't vote, mostly since I moved down to Morgantown from the Pittsburgh area, I can't post in GD since I have no right to complain about anything.......).

My hope is that in 2008 we'll have some REAL candidates (my biggest regret of the 2004 election is that there was no Republican primary) that people can stand behind, not passionless compromises like we had this year.

[Chastain86]

Listen, everybody else here might want to ignore that article you posted, Dio, but I'm morbidly curious. Do you honestly believe, as the article states, that America is building execution camps for no other reason than to wrongly snuff out Arabs?

I'm not sure either answer you give will help your stance in any way, shape or form. But I'd sure like to hear you defend it. Like George Carlin, I too enjoy watching the entropy of the human mind, and I think your response will provide ample enough entertainment either way.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Bush wants to have secret trials and executions. Trials without lawyers or pubic review and executions without. His motives are for him to explain, and they're not the most pertinent element of the story. The outrage lies not in why he wants to do it but that he wants to do it at all.

[Chastain86]

Bush wants to have secret trials and executions. Trials without lawyers or pubic review and executions without. His motives are for him to explain, and they're not the most pertinent element of the story. The outrage lies not in why he wants to do it but that he wants to do it at all.

Nice complete-dodge-of-the-question. Perhaps you and Bushy have more in common than you'd like to admit.

The question is, do you believe it? And why? There is scant little proof, even in the article you linked. So do you believe it because you want to, or because you know something the rest of us don't? Please, do tell. Watching you shift nervously and adjust your tinfoil chapeau nervously is too delicious to miss.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Do I beleiev what exactly? As to his motives, I simply don't know.

[El Cid Viscoso]

by Chastain86

Do you honestly believe, as the article states, that America is building execution camps for no other reason than to wrongly snuff out Arabs?Whoa whoa whoa. I suspect you might be projecting? The Guardian (http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_plans_for_executions_at_guantanamo.htm) article makes no reference to anything even in the neighborhood of "wrongly snuff[ing] out Arabs".

What was your intention by posting this?

[Farmwoman]

Of course, if we want to draw WWII analogies we must include at least one about appeasement and Hitler's rise, especially since I read at least one post at the SDMB today which pretty much blamed the 9/11 attacks on the first Gulf War. If only we had a representative/diplomat/peacemaker like Kerry at the helm instead of a leader: Bush Sr....well, perhaps our world would be very different today.

I'm not a Bush supporter, but I grudingly admit to voting for him yesterday. Not because I believe he's a great leader, but because I believe he's at least a leader and not a follower who will throw national and global security under the bus for appeasement and international popularity.
(jeeze I hate the pit and now run out all askeered)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Leader my ass.

[rowrrbazzle]

Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don't buy it for a second.Let me give just a few examples (I could go on for days):

Al Gore shouts that Bush "betrayed" our country.

Ted Kennedy compares the assaults at Abu Ghraib to "Saddam's torture chambers" where thousands of men, women, and children were tortured, raped, and killed.

Do you really believe that two of the most prominent Democrats saying these is "a few liberals" being "whiny"?

Michael Moore writes on 9/12/01Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California - these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!"Michael Moore thinks it would have been better if only Republicans had been killed. This is just a "liberal" being "whiny"?

Disingenuous the Canine regularly writes vicious rants against Republicans and Bush. This is just a "liberal" being "whiny"?

You bet these are major reasons I voted for Bush again.

And your insincere denial, like that of many liberals, is just one more reason.

Bush didn't defeat you. You defeated yourselves.

[Starving Artist]

(jeeze I hate the pit and now run out all askeered)Aw, now, don't be askeered, missy. It's only words on a computer screen...little bits of electronic impulses sent by people who wouldn't know you if you bumped into them on the street.

So come on in, the water's fine. :)

[Farmwoman]

I make the distinction between 'leader' and 'representative', one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions.

Now, I don't agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Let me give just a few examples (I could go on for days):

Al Gore shouts that Bush "betrayed" our country.


Ted Kennedy compares the assaults at Abu Ghraib to "Saddam's torture chambers" where thousands of men, women, and children were tortured, raped, and killed.
SAre either of those assertions untrue?
Do you really believe that two of the most prominent Democrats saying these is "a few liberals" being "whiny"?
They weren't being whiny, they were telling the truth.
Michael Moore writes on 9/12/01Michael Moore thinks it would have been better if only Republicans had been killed.
Man, talk about a colossal fucking disingenuous lie. Fuck you.
This is just a "liberal" being "whiny"?
No,, this is you being a liar.
Disingenuous the Canine regularly writes vicious rants against Republicans and Bush.
Not against Republicand, just against Bush.
You bet these are major reasons I voted for Bush again.
Those are some stupid fucking reasons.
And your insincere denial, like that of many liberals, is just one more reason.

Bush didn't defeat you. You defeated yourselves.
We were just outnumbered by morons, that's all. That's not our fault.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I make the distinction between 'leader' and 'representative', one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions.

Now, I don't agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient.
Arrogantly charging into an unnecessary war to settle a personal grudge is "leadership?" You have a very low threshhold for what you expect out of a leader.

[Farmwoman]

My threshold is actually quite high.

The policy of 'personal grudge' comes from your war room.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

My threshold is actually quite high.

The policy of 'personal grudge' comes from your war room.
Oh, so you think there were WMD? You think Iraq really was a threat to the US?

Do you think Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

What, pray tell, was the legitimate reason to kill 100,000 humans in Iraq?

[John Mace]

Or Bush either. I was calling him a bigot, but not a racial bigot. The "klan robe" was an anology for those Bush voters who keep wanting to separate themselves for Bush's bigoted policies. I'm saying that voting for an avowed homophobe makes those who voted for him just as culpable as if they had voted for a guy in a klan robe.

Was there a non-"homophobe" choice, other than a 3rd party guy? Kerry says he's against gay marriage, and would support a state constitutional amendment banning it. Can I be against federal legislation banning interracial marriage, but for state laws banning the same and not be a racist?

[Scylla]

I like Diogenes a lot. I didn't always. He's like two posters in one. Diogenes is a great person and like all great people his flaws are also great.

He's my absolute favorite left-wing nutjob (and I mean that with affection.) He's stubborn myopic and prejudicial, unpleasant and thick.... and at the same time he's also this insightful and nice guy who will sometimes listen and respond with great care and respect...

And then in the next post he'll go off raving again

And the one after that he'll be really cool again.

He knows a fair bit about theology, doesn't ever seem to hold a grudge.

He's really the only poster on this board who can make me laugh, shake my head at his stupidity, educate me with his insight, disgust me with his vitriol, make me smile with a sincere compliment, and call me a Nazi bastard... all in the same thread.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Damn it, Scylla, how can I maintain a rage on if you're going to go and post something like that?

[Shayna]

I make the distinction between 'leader' and 'representative', one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions.

Now, I don't agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient.
Nor (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html) has John (http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml) Kerry (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-kerryprofile16jan16,1,1416834,print.story). No bigger bird has ever been flipped in the face of opposition and terrorism than the ones John Kerry flipped when he relentlessly led the investigation that uncovered the Iran/Contra scandal and shut down the terrorist's international banking institution, or when he partnered with John McCain, again against huge opposition, to put the Vietnam POW issue to rest and normalize relations with a former enemy.

But you obviously didn't pay attention to the facts and you bought into Bush's lie that leadership has some kind of blustery, scowling cowboy face on it, as opposed to being a trait wherein the one performing it actually accomplishes worthwhile goals that benefit not only our own great nation, but the entire world, as well. Shame on you.

[Farmwoman]

But back to the original post and your fast and loose comparisons of Hitler and Bush.
While I’m no fan of revisionist history, your train of thought throughout the thread (and the ones prompting it) has me wondering what you’d think of this scenario…

Hitler was spanked out of Eastern Europe and told to stay in his room until he could keep his hands to himself. The bright minds of the day wrung their hands and insisted that he should have been forced out of power, but the international contract by which all ‘nice’ nations conducted themselves decided to let him have his little slice of Rhineland as long as he played well with his neighbors. Later, when it was reported that Hitler ‘may’ have wmd and ‘may’ be aiding and abetting terrorist groups, (or ‘may’ be gassing his own populace) a polite group of international investigators shows up for a dog and pony show. After much dicking around and a parade of ultimatums from the international community, Churchill finally stands up and says ‘fuck you, Adolf. You’re too dangerous and too close and we’re putting you out, with or without unilateral support. He's called a facist for doing it, and goes down in history as England's most hamfisted leader ever.

Like I said, I’m no fan of revisionist history, but you open yourself up to it with silly claims of Hitler>Bush

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Was there a non-"homophobe" choice, other than a 3rd party guy? Kerry says he's against gay marriage, and would support a state constitutional amendment banning it. Can I be against federal legislation banning interracial marriage, but for state laws banning the same and not be a racist?
It's pretty much a semantic thing with Kerry. He supports civil unions, he just doesn't want to call it marriage. He has not advocated abrogating any substantive rights.

The COTUS amendment, on the other hand, would not even permit civil unions.

A vote for Bush was a vot for a candidate who wants to permanently eliminate even the chance for civil unions in any state.

Yes, I know what he said about civil unions last week. His own amendment contradicts those statements. You acan't support an amendment for prohibiting the use or sale of all alcohloic beverages and then say people should be allowed to drink beer.

If that's the way he really feels, then he needs to advocate for changing the language in the amendment. If he won't do that, then he's a real bigot trying to hurt gay people in a real and lasting way.

Kerry's just full of shit about the wording. That's politics, not substance.

[lexi]

Diogenes - I am on your side, and I still can't see how people can be so blind, foolish, selfish, or just brainwashed to have voted for Bush.

Now I am fearing that Canada may not be far away enough to be safe.

I was re-reading "Contact" by Carl Sagan this week and he has a line in there that says: When we like them we call them Freedom Fighters, when we don't we call them Terrorists.

The USA seems incapable of seeing that to another people, such as many in the Arab world that the so called Acts of Terror may be considered to be justifiable acts in fighting for freedom.

Those they call terrorists will be fighting for their rights ever more so now that Bush has been re-elected -- in this war against the USA - I pray that they don't hit Canada.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

But back to the original post and your fast and loose comparisons of Hitler and Bush.
While I’m no fan of revisionist history, your train of thought throughout the thread (and the ones prompting it) has me wondering what you’d think of this scenario…

Hitler was spanked out of Eastern Europe and told to stay in his room until he could keep his hands to himself. The bright minds of the day wrung their hands and insisted that he should have been forced out of power, but the international contract by which all ‘nice’ nations conducted themselves decided to let him have his little slice of Rhineland as long as he played well with his neighbors. Later, when it was reported that Hitler ‘may’ have wmd and ‘may’ be aiding and abetting terrorist groups, (or ‘may’ be gassing his own populace) a polite group of international investigators shows up for a dog and pony show. After much dicking around and a parade of ultimatums from the international community, Churchill finally stands up and says ‘fuck you, Adolf. You’re too dangerous and too close and we’re putting you out, with or without unilateral support. He's called a facist for doing it, and goes down in history as England's most hamfisted leader ever.

Like I said, I’m no fan of revisionist history, but you open yourself up to it with silly claims of Hitler>Bush
Saddam had dick. Your analogy is worthless.

[Bricker]

Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don't buy it for a second.

I think it was a factor. My neighbors down the street were on the fence until one weekend where they swore that the next stupid thing they heard from one side would push them to vote for the other side. Shortly afterwards, Cher said that if Bush wins, gays would be shipped off to a single state and quarentined. They swore that tipped the scales.

Talking to them today, the wife didn't go through with it; she voted for Kerry. The husband - who was a Gore 2000 voter - voted Bush, pushed over the edge by a whiny liberal celebrity.

He told me today that he figured Virginia would go Bush no matter what, so he wasn't actually hurting anything.

Anecdotal? You betcha. But true.

[ExTank]

Michael Moore helped me decide to vote for Bush.

[Jurhael]

I don't think Bush is a leader. I think he's a loud mouthed blowhard that I don't respect at all.

At least I could pretend to respect Kerry.

Personally, I think the conservative yak jaws are as bad as the liberal ones. Maybe some of them helped people vote for Kerry.

[Starving Artist]

I like Diogenes a lot. I didn't always. He's like two posters in one. Diogenes is a great person and like all great people his flaws are also great.

He's my absolute favorite left-wing nutjob (and I mean that with affection.) He's stubborn myopic and prejudicial, unpleasant and thick.... and at the same time he's also this insightful and nice guy who will sometimes listen and respond with great care and respect...

And then in the next post he'll go off raving again

And the one after that he'll be really cool again.

He knows a fair bit about theology, doesn't ever seem to hold a grudge.

He's really the only poster on this board who can make me laugh, shake my head at his stupidity, educate me with his insight, disgust me with his vitriol, make me smile with a sincere compliment, and call me a Nazi bastard... all in the same thread.I couldn't agree more! It's nice to find someone else who feels the same.

[buttonjockey308]

See, that's just it. Doggy Knees may be off the deep end with a comparison to Hitler, but we may very well be looking at the New American Fascism. A lot of the warning signs are there. And maybe we're not -- maybe I'm just being paranoid. But I think we'd be smart to keep an eye on things.

tdn, you're right on the money, sort of. Doesn't matter WHO sleeps at 1600 Penn. Blvd, or WHO goes to work at the Capitol, we need to keep an eye on things. A Big Eye. One that looks into all the cracks, crevices and ratholes. The gov't should be under the watchful eye of the people, not the other way 'round. But we're not interested in the day-to-day operations, which is when crap like the patriot act happens, in the middle of the night, or on a slow tuesday afternoon, when nobody's lookin.

I'm tellin' ya, DtC is off the bloody deep end with the Hitler/Bush comparison, it simply does not jibe. Still, we've gotta be over that guys' shoulder for the next 4 years. Him, and that fucking ashcroft. Now THERE, see, THAT is a comparison, Hitler=Ashcroft, THAT makes more sense.


(I kid, really....well, sort of)

[John Mace]

It's pretty much a semantic thing with Kerry. He supports civil unions, he just doesn't want to call it marriage. He has not advocated abrogating any substantive rights.

The COTUS amendment, on the other hand, would not even permit civil unions.

A vote for Bush was a vot for a candidate who wants to permanently eliminate even the chance for civil unions in any state.

Yes, I know what he said about civil unions last week. His own amendment contradicts those statements. You acan't support an amendment for prohibiting the use or sale of all alcohloic beverages and then say people should be allowed to drink beer.

If that's the way he really feels, then he needs to advocate for changing the language in the amendment. If he won't do that, then he's a real bigot trying to hurt gay people in a real and lasting way.

Kerry's just full of shit about the wording. That's politics, not substance.

You're behind the times. The wording of that amendment acually was changed to allow cilvil unions.

As for Kerry, maybe that was his problem. Most people don't want to have to decipher some kind of code to figure out where he "really" stands on issues. At least Bush says what he thinks.

[Blalron]

I think it was a factor. My neighbors down the street were on the fence until one weekend where they swore that the next stupid thing they heard from one side would push them to vote for the other side. Shortly afterwards, Cher said that if Bush wins, gays would be shipped off to a single state and quarentined. They swore that tipped the scales.

Talking to them today, the wife didn't go through with it; she voted for Kerry. The husband - who was a Gore 2000 voter - voted Bush, pushed over the edge by a whiny liberal celebrity.

He told me today that he figured Virginia would go Bush no matter what, so he wasn't actually hurting anything.

Anecdotal? You betcha. But true.

How dare Kerry let Cher say that! :confused:

[Starving Artist]

Blalron, there is no force on earth capable of quieting the inane spoutings of that idiot.

[Talon Karrde]

I like Dio. And not just because I like almost everybody. But he kind of worries me.

You really need a vacation, Dio. One where you don't think about politics and just relax. It's probably not good for your health to stress out as much as you do.

[Starving Artist]

Actually, I think in Dio's case, it may be a good thing for his health that he goes off like he does. He certainly shouldn't be building up cholesterol from the stress of keeping things bottled up inside. :p

[Zoe]

ExTank: Every time I turn on HBO, I get Bill fuckling Maher and his hand-picked panel of liberal wankers (with one token conservative getting shouted down to make him feel "fair and balanced") telling me that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot, a moron, the dumbest fucking goober that ever drew breath, a racist, a homophobe, a Nazi, and every bad epithet that the liberal arsenal has at its disposal.

Kid Charlemagne: This is true. The leftists are so extreme in their arguments that any worthwhile points get lost amongst the superlatives. When I came to the board I wasn't too interested in politics though i did lean libertarian...

Bill Maher is a Libertarian, not a Leftist. He voted for Bush the Elder when he ran against Clinton.

Scylla, cool post.

I don't agree with DtC's comparison. I don't think Hitler was as shallow as Bush or that Bush is as intentionally evil as Hitler. Bush acts out of impulse and stubborness. There's no real insight there. His emotional and moral development are similar to that of an adolescent. (No offense to those of you still in high school!) For example, he may think that it is wrong to tell an out and out lie, but if he can get someone else to do it for him, then that's not immoral. Or, if he just doesn't tell the whole truth, then that's not immoral.
Also like many adolescents, he's exploitive. He also doesn't seem to have a full grasp on the concept of death. And I think he probably lies to himself a lot.

But he is also capable of being manipulated by people who are much more like Hitler. I think that Europeans are more wary of how quickly this sort of thing can develop in a free and "nice" society. I think many are rather startled that we have re-elected him.

It is easy to get used to stepping over the line. This Administration has been holding prisoners without access to attorneys and without charges being brought against them and without following the Geneva Conventions. How quickly did we get used to that concept? This Administration was responsible for a prison facility in Iraq where people were tortured and murdered. How many people knew about that prison and for how long? How far up the chain of command did the firings go?

I think that the most important thing is that if DtC really believes that Bush is like Hitler, the last thing he needs to do is be quiet about it. No one gets to decide that for another person.

[Starving Artist]

Every time I turn on HBO, I get Bill fuckling Maher and his hand-picked panel of liberal wankers (with one token conservative getting shouted down to make him feel "fair and balanced") telling me that anyone who supports Bush is an idiot, a moron, the dumbest fucking goober that ever drew breath, a racist, a homophobe, a Nazi, and every bad epithet that the liberal arsenal has at its disposal.Sounds just like his dishonestly named show, "Politically Incorrect." The only thing "politically incorrect" about it was the one poor slob they brought on to each show to represent the conservative viewpoint. I always felt the name of that show should have been "Three Liberal Panelists Plus One Liberal Host Gang Up On A Conservative"...but you know, now that I spell it out I can see that that would have been too cumbersome. ;)

I'm sorry, Zoe, but I think that to call Maher a libertarian rather than a liberal is pretty much a difference without a distinction. I know he regards himself as a libertarian -- and perhaps technically he is -- but he is almost always in total harmony with his liberal guests.

[peri]

I think it was a factor. My neighbors down the street were on the fence until one weekend where they swore that the next stupid thing they heard from one side would push them to vote for the other side. Shortly afterwards, Cher said that if Bush wins, gays would be shipped off to a single state and quarentined. They swore that tipped the scales.
I sincerely hope you sneered at them. Cher's ramblings (or those of any other celebrity) are nothing upon which to base so important a decision as your choice for president.

[Starving Artist]

...or a distinction without a difference. :smack:

[Excalibre]

I have no problem with vigilance. That's why I'm a firm supporter of the 2nd ammendment. I'll use my guns in an effort to avoid a Hitler-esque takeover of the US.
Christ, duffer, are you really that stupid? Hitler didn't take over Germany with guns - he was a government official! When the threat to life and liberty comes, it's not going to be something you can fight with a gun.

[duffer]

Christ, duffer, are you really that stupid? Hitler didn't take over Germany with guns - he was a government official! When the threat to life and liberty comes, it's not going to be something you can fight with a gun.

Read it in context to the other post. :rolleyes:

[KidCharlemagne]

Sounds just like his dishonestly named show, "Politically Incorrect." The only thing "politically incorrect" about it was the one poor slob they brought on to each show to represent the conservative viewpoint. I always felt the name of that show should have been "Three Liberal Panelists Plus One Liberal Host Gang Up On A Conservative"...but you know, now that I spell it out I can see that that would have been too cumbersome. ;)

I'm sorry, Zoe, but I think that to call Maher a libertarian rather than a liberal is pretty much a difference without a distinction. I know he regards himself as a libertarian -- and perhaps technically he is -- but he is almost always in total harmony with his liberal guests.

I get the feeling he's pandering to his liberal audience rather than revealing his true colors. Jon Stewart, on the other hand, just seems to be more comfortable now expressing his views and I think his show is starting to suffer for it. Perhaps it's not the show so much as the liberal audience which goes ape at any jokes against Bush which is starting to annoy me.

[Bryan Ekers]

Perhaps it's not the show so much as the liberal audience which goes ape at any jokes against Bush which is starting to annoy me.

To be fair, though, even if the audience is quite partisan there has been no shortage of apery at the various Kerry jokes.

[Rilchiam]

Originally Posted by Excalibre
Christ, duffer, are you really that stupid? Hitler didn't take over Germany with guns - he was a government official! When the threat to life and liberty comes, it's not going to be something you can fight with a gun.

Read it in context to the other post. :rolleyes:

:confused: If you mean your OP, I don't get it either.

[Cisco]

I've been on the board since 2001 and he's been a jerk consistently since then. When was this time when he was a rational poster who had anything to contribute besides anti-bush rantings and insults? Back on the AOL board? During the Carter administration? The age of dreams?
Diogenes didn't register until late 2002.

Just to throw in my two cents...I think both sides of this argument are being a little bit irrational. DtC is pissed (understandably) and using hyperbole to illustrate his anger and frustration, and most of you that are opposed to him are doing the exact same thing without even realizing it.

I can see the Bush=Hitler comparison and agree with it to a certain extent but it would work a lot better if it weren't for that nasty little holocaust. I lost a lot of faith in humanity Tuesday night but I'm not ready to believe that anything like the holocaust can happen again in our lifetimes.

[Desmostylus]

I lost a lot of faith in humanity Tuesday night but I'm not ready to believe that anything like the holocaust can happen again in our lifetimes.The holocaust killed, what, six million? The Vietnam war, which was certainly within my lifetime if not yours, killed about two million, plus maybe another one million in Cambodia.

The Iraq war has killed somewhere between 13,000 and 100,000 so far. So we're down on the death toll.

The holocaust and the Vietnam war/killing fields of Cambodia were absolutely horrifying. The US fought against one of them, but did most of the killing in the other.

All it would take to break the record is for some asshole in the Pentagon to decide that nukes would be a good idea in Iraq or Iran.

[Starving Artist]

All it would take to break the record is for some asshole in the Pentagon to decide that nukes would be a good idea in Iraq or Iran.Do you really think one person, sitting alone in the Pentagon, has the authority and power to launch a nuclear strike at an entire country made up of men, women and children, just because he thinks it would be a good idea?

The only person in this country who has the power to order a nuclear strike is the president, and I'll guarantee you that he isn't about to wipe out entire countries full of innocent citizens on a whimsical notion such as its being a "good idea."

You're taking this "Nuke 'em all and let God sort it out" rhetoric way too seriously. This country hasn't used a nuclear weapon against another country in 60 years, and even then it was used as sparingly as possible even though the goal was to end a world war.

I have a very hard time imagining a scenario whereby this country would use atomic weapons against another country unless it was to forestall, or retaliate for, a similar attack on us.

[elucidator]

...I have a very hard time imagining a scenario whereby this country would use atomic weapons against another country unless it was to forestall, or retaliate for, a similar attack on us.

Oh? You watched as the machinery of invasion geared up for months. See any evidence, any at all, that Iraq was preparing an attack? Do you see any evidence, any at all, that they could have attacked, even had they wanted to?

Nukes are just very big bombs. That's all. Do you prefer a bullet when it comes to dispatching innocent civilians? Miss the personal touch, do you?

[John Corrado]

The holocaust and the Vietnam war/killing fields of Cambodia were absolutely horrifying. The US fought against one of them, but did most of the killing in the other.

Cite?

My understanding is that most of the two million killed in Vietnam were killed by the Communist government after the U.S. abandoned the country.

[ExTank]

Bill Maher is a Libertarian, not a Leftist. He voted for Bush the Elder when he ran against Clinton.

In a slightly different vein from Starving Atrist's or Kid Charlemagne's replies, the vote you cited was in 1992. I would allow that his political views could evolve in 12 years.

Besides, some libertarians are these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) kinds of libertarians, as opposed to these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism) kinds.

More of his guests seem to be the former, not the latter. Except for the one poor chump they bring in to be the butt of his other geust's commentary.

P.J. O'Rourke is one of the few guests I've seen able to not only hold his own, but accept the ribbing with grace even as he fired back with equal gusto.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Maher also claims to have voted for Dole in '96.

For some unfathomable reason he counts Ann Coulter as one of his closest friends and constantly defends her against his liberal guests.

He was always very complimentary of Barbara Olson and after she was killed on 9/11, he left an open chair in her honor for a week on his show.

Maher has some views that are fairly conservative or even offensive to liberals. He's very pro-military and opposes putting women in combat. He's pro-death penalty. He's expressed fiscal philosphies the tend towards the right. He defends tobacco companies and smokers' rights.

He's a civil liberatarian but I wouldn't really call him a classic liberal. He does hate Bush, but that's a sentiment which transcends ideology.

[World Eater]

You're taking this "Nuke 'em all and let God sort it out" rhetoric way too seriously. This country hasn't used a nuclear weapon against another country in 60 years, and even then it was used as sparingly as possible even though the goal was to end a world war.

I dunno, didn't we apply similar logic to SH for the invasion? He used chemical weapons before, he'll use them again?

All nations of the world that have used a nuclear weapon raise their hand.

All nations of the world that have used a nuclear weapon twice raise their hand.

[ExTank]

Dio:

Be that as it may, Mr. Maher has done a piss-poor job of communicating that since I've been watching him on HBO (I never watched him when he was on regular network TV, but that was because of inconvenient timing).

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Don't equate anti-Bush with "liberal."

[duffer]

I fucked up a couple days ago and posted this to a different thread. Not verbatim, but it's the same idea.

Dio, I should have known this thread would take so many tangents, but I made my point and blew off my steam on this topic. Though some posts have been fun to watch. ;)

I'd apologize, but not only would I be lying, it would probably insult you as well. I know you understand the purpose and intent. And now, just for you, I'll break out the sig for a rare appearence. :D

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I fucked up a couple days ago and posted this to a different thread. Not verbatim, but it's the same idea.

Dio, I should have known this thread would take so many tangents, but I made my point and blew off my steam on this topic. Though some posts have been fun to watch. ;)

I'd apologize, but not only would I be lying, it would probably insult you as well. I know you understand the purpose and intent. And now, just for you, I'll break out the sig for a rare appearence. :D
Strangely enough, I never for a second took this thread especially personally or took any offense to it. I pretty much took it as given that somebody would Pit me after election night so I took it in stride. No hard feelings here and no need for you to apologize. I could apologize for calling Bush Hitler, but I wouldn't mean it an no one would believe me anyway so I take this thread in the same spirit. You were pissed when you started it. You're not really pissed anymore but you're not sorry either. I totally understand it. Life goes on.

Oh...and fuck the Packers! :cool:

[duffer]

Oh...and fuck the Packers! :cool:

I've got half a notion of buying 2 tix to the game in that shithole you guys call a stadium just to be there personally to see the distraught look on your face when we bitchslap you again. Man, Minnesota plays in an indoor stadium in December. Tagliabue needs a dressing down for allowing this. :mad:

[emarkp]

Don't equate anti-Bush with "liberal."Good point. Liberal is a subset of anti-Bush.

[Desmostylus]

Cite?After looking at the references here (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm), I withdraw my "most of the killing" statement. Looks like it was only "a lot of the killing".My understanding is that most of the two million killed in Vietnam were killed by the Communist government after the U.S. abandoned the country.That's not supported by the data. The death toll in Vietnam in 1973-1975 is put at 171,500.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Good point. Liberal is a subset of anti-Bush.
That's true of both the political ideology and the Doper. ;)

[FinnAgain]

The holocaust killed, what, six million?

Totally beside the point of this thread, but the Shoah claimed the lives of 11 million civilians .

[Cisco]

Totally beside the point of this thread, but the Shoah claimed the lives of 11 million civilians .
Cite? I've never seen a figure over 6 million.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Did anyone else enter this thread with a firmly established opinion and then realize that either side might actually be correct here?

[FinnAgain]

Cite? I've never seen a figure over 6 million.

Wow...
I really am shocked...
Don't they teach this in school anymore?

Six million Jews, five million gentiles. That makes 11 million. (http://www2.sptimes.com/Holocaust_museum/11_million.html)

[Cisco]

It says:

11-million human beings had perished at the behest of Adolf Hitler's dictatorship [between 1933 and 1945.]

I'm guessing that that has to include non-holocaust deaths (such as WWII casualties, etc.) Provide further cites if I'm wrong because this one is somewhat :dubious:.

[Cisco]

Wow...
I really am shocked...
Don't they teach this in school anymore?
And FWIW I went to K-12 in rural (meaning offensively underfunded) North Carolina. We didn't study WWII. Period. I feel like the one-eyed man in the land of the blind just for knowing how to read (if guys only knew that I'm only half-joking...) I'm extremely proud of the education I've given myself since a very young age so :rolleyes: on your "they don't teach this in school?"-type comments.

[Desmostylus]

The Wikipedia entry puts it like this:Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust)

Death toll

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime is still subject to further research. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed [1] (http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/20.May.1997/News/Article-2.html). However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable.

The Nazis persecuted many groups of people deemed inferior to the Nazi Aryan ideal. The following estimates refer to groups that were actively singled out in Nazi ideology as being 'unfit for life' and were part of the Nazi's planned and systematic genocide.

5.6 – 6.1 million Jews, including 3.0 – 3.5 million Polish Jews
200 000 – 800 000 Roma & Sinti ("gypsies")
200 000 – 300 000 handicapped
10 000 – 25 000 homosexuals
2 000 Jehovah's Witnesses

"There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59-5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million. The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates. Nazi documentation containing partial data on various deportations and murders is also used. " From Yad Vashem (http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_3.html)

Lucy Davidowicz used prewar census figures to estimate that 5.85 million Jews died. Using official census counts may cause an underestimate since many births and deaths were not recorded in small towns and villages. Another reason some consider her estimate too low is that many records were destroyed during the war. (Her book, The War Against the Jews has detailed listings by country of the number of Jews killed.)

The following groups of people were also killed by the Nazi regime but there is little evidence that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.

2.5 – 3.5 million non-Jewish Poles
3.5 – 6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5 – 4 million Soviet POWs
1 – 1.5 million political dissidents

[toadspittle]

I haven't seen the DtC posts that spawned this pitting, but I have to say I find little to fault in his behavior/arguments in this thread.

And farmwoman, I'm still very curious to see your answer to this question of his:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmwoman

My threshold is actually quite high.
The policy of 'personal grudge' comes from your war room.
--------


Oh, so you think there were WMD? You think Iraq really was a threat to the US?

Do you think Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

What, pray tell, was the legitimate reason to kill 100,000 humans in Iraq?

I still have yet to see ANYONE give me a good reason why 100,000 people had to die. And why the answer to the current mess there seems to be to make it 200,000.

[duffer]

I haven't seen the DtC posts that spawned this pitting, but I have to say I find little to fault in his behavior/arguments in this thread.

How in the Hell would I be able to open this pitting for what he says in this thread? :confused:

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

Cite? I've never seen a figure over 6 million.

Cite

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm

[FinnAgain]

And FWIW I went to K-12 in rural (meaning offensively underfunded) North Carolina. We didn't study WWII. Period<snip> so :rolleyes: on your "they don't teach this in school?"-type comments.

So a simple
"No, they don't teach this in school where I'm from." would've sufficed?

[Cisco]

So a simple
"No, they don't teach this in school where I'm from." would've sufficed?
Yes. They did not teach that in the schools I went to.

You have no idea how old it gets to constantly hear people say things like " :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You didn't read Shakespeare in the literature lounge near the science lab next to the swimming pool not far from where drumline practiced?!!!"

[FinnAgain]

Yes. They did not teach that in the schools I went to.

You have no idea how old it gets to constantly hear people say things like " :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You didn't read Shakespeare in the literature lounge near the science lab next to the swimming pool not far from where drumline practiced?!!!"

Sorry if you're tired of hearing that, and I do mean that sincerely.
However, it still blows my mind.
I'm terribly sorry that your school district failed you so thoroughly, but I suppose that's what the dope is for, fighting ignorance.

P.S. Really didn't mean to come off as attacking you, and sorry if I did. Still blown away that they don't teach World War II in the school you went to...

P.P.S. My interest really was educational, as in, jeez, are they not teaching this in schools these days? Evidently they aren't, at least in some places.

P.P.P.S. Sorry for the hijack. Back to bickering :D

[rowrrbazzle]

In reply to my post:Man, talk about a colossal fucking disingenuous lie. Fuck you.

No,, this is you being a liar.

Those are some stupid fucking reasons.

We were just outnumbered by morons, that's all. That's not our fault.I am enlightened and convinced by your reasoned discourse! I swoon at your eloquence! I am transported by the sublimity of your rhetoric!

ROFLMAO!

You know, it's amazing. I started visiting the Pit at one point, but I gave it up because you and others just made my blood boil.

Now I read the ravings of an utterly impotent bully, and I just smile.

You remind me of Gollum after he lost the Ring: "Nassssty, mean, ssssssssssneaky Republicanssssssss! Thief! Thief! Republicanssssssss! We hates them forever! Give us back the preciousssss electionsssssss!"

And similar to Gollum, by you (and others) giving in to your basest impulses, you are partly responsible for our victory. I'd say thank you, but that wasn't your intent, so I won't.

Of course, this is the real world, not LOTR, and the story isn't finished. You may do something effective for your side, though I doubt it. But you're finished for now. You finished yourself.

This has been fun, but I am finished with you and other bullies like you.

[FinnAgain]

This has been fun, but I am finished with you and other bullies like you.

Bullies?

Like people who use their noggins and realize that although Sadaam's torture chambers where places "where thousands of men, women, and children were tortured, raped, and killed."
Our torture (oh, I'm sorry, "assault") chambers still
1) tortured
2) raped
3) killed
Iraqi civilians.

Is it the act of a bully to try to force you to stop being wilfully ignorant?
If so... give me your lunch money, bitch.

[FinnAgain]

Gah!
Shouldn't have written that, my apologies.
(but I still want your lunch money)

[Abbie Carmichael]

You remind me of Gollum after he lost the Ring: "Nassssty, mean, ssssssssssneaky Republicanssssssss! Thief! Thief! Republicanssssssss! We hates them forever! Give us back the preciousssss electionsssssss!"

Ow, ow, egg nog in my nose ...