Lost 1.7 "The Moth" (Non-hidden SPOILERS) [Archive]

Juniper200

11-03-2004, 04:34 PM

Greetings, castaways. Ready for another hour of trickery, obfuscation and legerdemain from Abrams & Co.?

It's Charlie's flashback week, Dominic Monaghan fans. What might we see? I'm hoping for DriveSHAFT live, a look at the "what happened to the band" Locke alluded to last week and, of course, days of smack and groupies. Everyone else's backstory has had some kind of twisty revelation so far, but Charlie and his addiction seem pretty straightforward. I hope the writers follow tradition and give me at least one "jigga-WHAT?" moment this week.

Back on island time, Charlie's starting withdrawal and all its pleasant side effects, and uh-oh! Something's gonna happen to Ja-ack! Let's keep an eye open for more on the status of the island's two tribes, the identities of the cave mummies and Jeebus Christ are we ever going to talk more about the Thing in the Jungle and the Anomalous Polar Bear?!

Hopefully, Claire, Boone and Shannon will be back to round out the cast this week after their silence last time. Sometimes Shannon makes the most sense of anyone on the show (I'm taking bets on how long it takes for her to sleep with Sawyer.) and Claire has the potential to be a stabalizing force for Charlie right now. We didn't see which camp she wound up with at the end of "House of the Rising Sun;" common sense dictates that she'd follow Jack and his medical expertise back to the spring, but week seven is probably a little late for common sense to rear its head among these people.

Buckle in for Sweeps, folks. Who knows what's in store!

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 04:56 PM

Still no Will, Holly, or Rick. No Sleestacks, either.

I wonder if the French woman is hot or not.

Does Dominic wear a kaiser helmet in any of the scenes?

N9IWP

11-03-2004, 05:04 PM

The French woman

Is played by Mira "Delenn" Furlan, who is hot IMHo, or at least was hot on B5

Brian

misstee

11-03-2004, 05:20 PM

. I hope the writers follow tradition and give me at least one "jigga-WHAT?" moment this week.

I want TWO of those moments!

I have never seen anyone coming off drugs - how long does it take to break free of the cravings?

BiblioCat

11-03-2004, 06:26 PM

Still no Will, Holly, or Rick. No Sleestacks, either.

No, but I hear Jeff Probst will be showing up and might make them stand on poles in exchange for "Immunity" or something. Whatever that means. ;)

vivalostwages

11-03-2004, 07:25 PM

After the tension of the last few weeks, I really do feel like getting Lost on this or any other island!

Be back soon......

av8rmike

11-03-2004, 07:32 PM

The way they're playing this up, I certainly hope Sawyer is the next victim of the one-eyed one-horned flying purple people-eater. However, every show needs its antagonist, so I doubt they'll be getting rid of him any time soon.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 07:44 PM

So..., the moth metaphor isn't about a "Like a moth to the flame," but about the metamorphisis, the struggle to change into something better, the need to go some other way. Hmmm....

The big brother back story is interesting. Seems he was both the cause of Charlie's habit, and an example of changing for "the better." Provided one believes that Mother Chirch is included in what's bettee.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 07:46 PM

Why yes, I AM spelling phoneticly.

quilter

11-03-2004, 07:47 PM

We're supposed to believe that Sawyer set off the third rocket, right?

Hmmmm...

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 07:55 PM

Well, someone had to. He'll use it as leverage somehow.

Next week's previews show Saayid,so we know that blow didn't kill him.

The last bit with Charlie and Locke, even tho I knew exactly what he was going to do, it still worked. I really loveded their facial expresssions, Chas and Locke.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 07:59 PM

A request please:

Whoever starts the threads, put "SPOILERS" in the title please. That way we don't have to resort to those stupid boxes, but can just air out everything, quoting and answering willy nilly, like the ENT threads.

Thanks.

av8rmike

11-03-2004, 07:59 PM

The last bit with Charlie and Locke, even tho I knew exactly what he was going to do, it still worked. I really loveded their facial expresssions, Chas and Locke.

It was so they could all enjoy the mystical power of the heroin!

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:02 PM

It was so they could all enjoy the mystical power of the heroin!

Hah!

Yeah, when Pippin first smiled all big like that, I thought he had taken a hit from the smoke! :D

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:05 PM

Merry.

Rubystreak

11-03-2004, 08:13 PM

Due to DVR screw ups from the 9:01 finish time, I will never get to see the preview for next week. Will someone pretty please post a description of it? Thank you!

VunderBob

11-03-2004, 08:15 PM

So, who coldcocked Sayyid?

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:18 PM

Due to DVR screw ups from the 9:01 finish time, I will never get to see the preview for next week. Will someone pretty please post a description of it? Thank you!

Somebody blonde (pregger girl?) needs an inhaler, but sleazeboy has them all. He demands a pricefor them of a kiss from Kate. Jack and Saayid seem to want to beat the inhalers out of him instead. Sound effect of a gurgling throat at the very end of preview.

Wile E

11-03-2004, 08:19 PM

Dude! This boar is freaking fantastic! What'd you do to it?

Aww, how can you not love Charlie? I knew what he was going to do, but I still loved seeing him do it.

Okay so who conked out Sayid? If Sawyer set off the rocket how could he have gotten to Sayid so fast to knock him out? Could it have been ... (spoilering it in case some people don't want to speculate)
Locke? Everyone else was at the caves helping Jack but as far as we know Locke was still field dressing (is that the term?) his boar ... or was he?

Or could it have been the French woman? 16 years alone on an island she might be a little *twirls finger around ear*. Maybe she just happened to be around and didn't want to be found?

Who else could it have been? Sawyer would have had to run pretty far and fast to get to Sayid and he'd have likely been making so much noise to do so he wouldn't have been sneaking up on him. If Sawyer was the one who set off the rocket.

All the other main characters were accounted for, except Claire and I think we can rule out the 8 months pregnant woman being able to sneak around the jungle and take a soldier by surprise. We didn't see Rose but I doubt it was her either.

Maybe it's just another survivor we have yet to meet who doesn't want to get off the island for one reason or another?

I liked Sun standing up to Jin for a change. Good girl, Jin's just going to have to get with the times.

Where are they hiding the pregnant lady?

I always forget everything I want to say after I start typing. I'll be back ... of course.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:20 PM

So, who coldcocked Sayyid?

Scot? Steve?

Probably the woman from the transmission.

Silver Fire

11-03-2004, 08:20 PM

I missed the first 15 or 20 minutes. Did I really miss anything except for the cave's collapse?

What's with the bad CG insects though?

Kate and Jack, sittin' in a tree... Next week looks like FUN! :D I also liked the end scene with Locke and Charlie, even though I, too, saw it coming. Except I thought he'd throw it into the ocean. I think I liked this better. I really, really like Charlie; he's my favorite.

I have never seen anyone coming off drugs - how long does it take to break free of the cravings?
Some people never get over the cravings. Getting through withdrawal symtoms, though, really depends on the person, I 'spose, as well as the drug. I think this show (fake, TV, fakefakefake) will take Charlie through the experience fairly quickly now that he has help from Jack, as well as Locke's "I'm proud of you" comment (he needed that, and it's been awhile since he's heard it). And now that he's a hero, well... that'll help, too. I give him two more episodes max before he's "over it".

Don't get me wrong, things like that can help addicts recover in real life, too. It's just not so quick and dramatic.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:21 PM

God, how I hate spoiler boxes.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:24 PM

I missed the first 15 or 20 minutes. Did I really miss anything except for the cave's collapse?

Some Charllie flashbacks. He goes from being THE CENTER of Driveshaft, to being in his Brother's shadow. Also, some not feeling needed feelings on the island. Helps explains the littel speech at the cave before he goes in for Jack.

Silver Fire

11-03-2004, 08:27 PM

Somebody blonde (pregger girl?) needs an inhaler, but sleazeboy has them all. He demands a pricefor them of a kiss from Kate. Jack and Saayid seem to want to beat the inhalers out of him instead. Sound effect of a gurgling throat at the very end of preview.
That's Shannon (snotty blonde chick); I assume that because Boone is the one who's talking in the preview. Looks like Sawyer gets the shit kicked out of him. I can't decide if I like that or not. The sound effect comes right after "Mohammad", Sawyer's new pet name for him, walks up to Sawyer with a knife and yanks his head back by a handful of that pretty hair. :eek:

Like I said, it looks like it's going to be FUN!

I always forget how quickly these threads move...

:Previews:

Thanks, NCB.

easy e

11-03-2004, 08:27 PM

Sure. Shannon (the sister?) is gasping and Boone says she has asthma. Sawyer has or has hidden all the inhalers he found. Jack, Sayyid, and the fugitive (forget her name) go to get them from him. Sawyer says he'll turn them over if the fugitive kisses him. Jack and Sayyid don't like that and start beating him up. In the midst of the roughing up footage there's one of the fugitive bending over looking like she's getting ready to kiss a somewhat bloody Sawer.

Wile E

11-03-2004, 08:32 PM

God, how I hate spoiler boxes.

Sorry, hun, some people don't like speculation and I was giving them the option of not reading it.

Re: Next week; it was definitely Shannon having the asthma attack and it was her brother Boone telling the others that she has has asthma and that Sawyer has all the inhalers.

Wait, she saved all her pedicure equipment after the crash but she didn't have any spare inhalers? Or is Sawyer "salvaging" from everyone bags, dead or alive?

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:35 PM

So it was Shannon, eh? I barely remembered to check the previews and missed the first seconds of it, catching only the blonde hair. It did look like she was in black, tho, like the prefer chick wears. But, it makes Boone's comment more realistic. he would know about his own sister.

Hasn't preggo girl worn only black so far? Maybe that forshadows her death.

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:37 PM

>>Sorry, hun, some people don't like speculation and I was giving them the option of not reading it.

Yeah, I know. Still... :p

The Fugitive is KATE

N9IWP

11-03-2004, 08:44 PM

NoClueBoy

11-03-2004, 08:46 PM

Works for me.

Whatever happened to 24?

Silver Fire

11-03-2004, 09:10 PM

BUT, anything from "next week on Lost"
Why that? The previews are shown after every episode and most people watch them, don't they?

I agree with everything else though. I definitely don't want to see things for Lost 3:11 or whatever from some site that has "insider information", or whatever. That kind of ruins all the fun, doesn't it? Or whatever. ;)

I just said that way too many time, I know. :p

Juniper200

11-03-2004, 09:12 PM

This has been mentioned before, but maybe we shoukld use the "24" rule.
Anything shown tonight needs no spoiler boxes. Also, any speculation is OK.

BUT, anything from "next week on Lost", other ads, epguides, etc should be spoilerboxed.

agreed?

Brian
Yeah, that's how these threads worked originally. I thought we'd reached a consensus, so I stopped putting it in the OPs. I'll include it in future weeks.

I was sure Sawyer wasn't going to set off the rocket, but there it was. I wonder if he turned on the antenna, though. Given his behavior this week and the scenes in the "next weeks," he's starting to be one of my top three characters. Do you think he was really hoping Jack was dead, or was he trying to freak Kate out by making her think she might have missed his last moments? Maybe a little of both?

As much as I love Charlie, I was sort of disappointed in this week's flashbacks. There aren't any real skeleton's in his closet, which I was really hoping for. Charlie's half of Oasis-From-Manchester? Whee. I guess Liam's new life threw me for a loop a little. I thought they could have done a better job establishing Charlie's self-worth issues earlier on in the flashbacks, thus giving a little more motivation for his picking up the heroin, but I guess the temptation issues he discussed with the priest were setup enough without wasting time.

dropzone

11-03-2004, 09:36 PM

The French woman

Is played by Mira "Delenn" Furlan, who is hot IMHo, or at least was hot on B5
Excellent! IIRC, she was a big star in the old country (Bosnia? Serbia? Some fool place in the Balkans) and is plenty hot in a grown woman way. (http://www.zlatna.com/celebration/mpubph.html) Us old farts need someone on that show older than our daughters so we don't feel pervy ogling them.

Juniper200

11-03-2004, 10:33 PM

TV Guide Online has a short, non-spoilerific interview with Dom Monaghan about this week's episode here (http://www.tvguide.com/news/insider/) (link may change; it's the Wednesday Insider):
TVGO: You all have amusing theories on what that thing in the forest is.

Monaghan: My theory is that it's an African elephant with about 35 cats attached to his body with Scotch tape. The cats are scratching him and he's rampaging through the jungle, trying to get these cats off. (Cocreators and executive producers) J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof said I'm not too far off from the truth! So I think I get special brownie points for nearly hitting the nail on the head.

kidchameleon

11-03-2004, 10:41 PM

Scot? Steve?

I'm Steve, he's Scott.

Well, if I was around Charlie, I'd try to take the drugs in case the doctor needed them. While not the best choice in the world, it might beat having your apendix removed with just a branch between your teeth...

Misnomer

11-03-2004, 10:48 PM

The way they're playing this up, I certainly hope Sawyer is the next victim of the one-eyed one-horned flying purple people-eater.
I dunno, I think Sawyer has some tricks up his sleeve. I don't think he's really as much of an ass as he wants everyone to think he is. When he told Kate that he and Jack weren't all that different, I started wondering if maybe he is (or was) a doctor or a lawyer or something. I have no idea what his game is, if that's indeed what's going on, but I keep thinking there's more to him than meets the eye.

Not that I'm complaining about what meets the eye, mind you. :D

I just said that way too many time, I know. :p
Whatever. ;)

Darwin's Finch

11-03-2004, 11:06 PM

Do you think he was really hoping Jack was dead, or was he trying to freak Kate out by making her think she might have missed his last moments? Maybe a little of both?

I think he was just being spiteful because of Kate's "why would I care about anything you have to say" comment when he went looking for her to tell her about Jack in the first place. It seemed to me that he planned on telling her until that comment, then instead decided to tag along and spring it on her at his convenience, hopefully getting her riled up in the process.

vivalostwages

11-03-2004, 11:18 PM

Sawyer is a piece of work, I liked Driveshaft, Monaghan did a darned fine job in this ep., Locke cooks barbecued pork--is there anything Locke doesn't know how to do?--and I am dying for backstory on Sayid, Hurley, Pregnant Lady and even bitchy Shannon and her brother.

Michael checked out the cave for its structural integrity after the cave-in. Was there any chance that he could have checked it out beforehand, or doesn't it work that way? (I don't know nuthin' 'bout no structures; just asking.)

Glory

11-04-2004, 12:07 AM

Excellent! IIRC, she was a big star in the old country (Bosnia? Serbia? Some fool place in the Balkans) and is plenty hot in a grown woman way. (http://www.zlatna.com/celebration/mpubph.html) Us old farts need someone on that show older than our daughters so we don't feel pervy ogling them.

:( I saw a spoiler for the French Woman, deliberately DIDN'T read it and you just confirmed with a non spoiler that she has been cast. Sadness.

masonite

11-04-2004, 12:43 AM

First episode where a Redshirt got a speaking part, wasn't it? I think Scot and Steve might return to us later, now that they've got their AFTRA cards.

Provided one believes that Mother Chirch is included in what's bettee.I'm sorry, what are you talking about?

Sawyer shirtless! FINALLY! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I luurve me some Sawyer.

Hate-hate-hate Kate, aka AAKB, aka Acclaimed Actress Kate Beckinsale. She of but one or two facial expressions. As Dorothy Parker would have put it, "She runs the gamut of emotions from A to B." "Here, use this sling which I made out of my undergarments!" Bitch. Slut. Bitch-slut!

She was so bitchy to Sawyer, she totally deserved what she got, the way Sawyer told her Jack was in a cave collapse. I don't see how she can hold that against him in the future; she totally had it coming. Anyway, what is her business with Jack? She totally abandons the antenna project to rush off to Go To Him; suddenly it's okay to trust Sawyer to shoot off the flare and turn on the transceiver. I hate her. Hate-hate-hate.

Didn't you think Shannon was totally going to blow it with the flare at 5:00? Talking about guys in bars ... that was a setup for her to blow off her flare responsibility, and yet she actually came through. I'm kind of amazed.

Is Sun looking like she's getting some acne, or something? Her skin doesn't look quite right.

What a tedious plot with the Hobbit. First, I expected him to totally FREAK OUT this week, what with the withdrawal, and he didn't really. Second, what's the terrific heroism about giving up his drugs voluntarily, instead of one week later when they run out on their own? Same result; timing just one week different. I would have weaned myself off as gently as possible, whilst looking for psychotropic plants on the island. And licking toads for good measure.

(You are telling me ganja doesn't grow on that island? Please.)

masonite

11-04-2004, 01:10 AM

Askia, you ran with my theory about the "Pilot" episode title and I am with you thus far. What do you make of "Moth"? The interesting thing to me is, if they're going to hit us over the head with the metaphor of emerging from the cocoon, why not the more obvious "Butterfly"? What is the secondary meaning of "Moth"?

Cervaise

11-04-2004, 01:14 AM

I'll mention something nobody else has noted yet as a positive moment: Sayid speculating about the unlikely nature of their crash. Seems like all that stuff we complained and nitpicked about in the first couple of weeks ("the tail section broke off! there's no way they landed!" or "how is that transmitter still working?") is stuff they've thought about and will be working in over time.

One thing that's still bugging me, though: I feel like we still don't have a concrete sense about the size of the island. They keep referring to it as such, but I don't think anybody's mentioning making a circuit, or even just going around the corner of the farthest point to see if there's any more land behind them. I'd like to have an answer or clarification on this pretty soon.

masonite

11-04-2004, 01:20 AM

Cervaise: I keep thinking of Prince Caspian, the book through which I learned that when stranded on an island, one must walk the perimeter to find where the freshwater streams run into the ocean; then you can trace them into the woods to find drinkable water. That would have been more believable to me than Jack's psychic VisionQuest accident finding the water.

Why, at this point of their exploration, should they even believe they're on an island?

C K Dexter Haven

11-04-2004, 06:28 AM

I've edited in a "Spoilers" to the title.

I don't know if we need a rule, but it seems to me to be common courtesy, either to include the word "Spoilers" in the title, or to hide (via the spoiler tag) any information that someone who hasn't seen the episode might not want to know.'

I'm not sure about a 24-hour rule, in the days of TiVo and the like, people do see things many days later. I think it just makes sense to put something in the header.

N9IWP

11-04-2004, 06:36 AM

I could go either way about whether "next week on.." should be spoilerboxed or not.

Brian

velveeta

11-04-2004, 06:53 AM

I few episodes ago I would have sworn that the bag of drugs was almost completely empty. Tonight there was a good amount still left. My theory is that Charlie's plastic baggie was really a pocket dimension - a L-Space full of heroin if you will.

av8rmike

11-04-2004, 06:57 AM

Re: The titles

Even Sigmund Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

eenerms

11-04-2004, 07:09 AM

Anyone catch the title of the book Sawyer was reading ?

It seemed that the transmitter was working because when Sayeed turned it on he had a bunch of those bar thingys.

Eats_Crayons

11-04-2004, 07:12 AM

:( I saw a spoiler for the French Woman, deliberately DIDN'T read it and you just confirmed with a non spoiler that she has been cast. Sadness.
Yeah, that's kind of a huge spoiler too. I liked not knowing if she is alive or dead. :(

Well, at least we don't know what state she'll be in. Maybe she'll be as mad as a hatter and won't be able to give them anything useful -- just cackle like the Blair Witch or something... "Ils sont tous mort... and your little dog too. Ah-ha-ha-haaaaa!"

Max Carnage

11-04-2004, 07:13 AM

I was thinking about the "next week on..." (24) rule last night as well. When it comes to 24, I NEVER watch the previews for the next episode and try to avoid commercials throughout the week. 24 has too many surprises and twists, half of which are given away too soon via previews. I don't make as much of an effort with LOST, especially since they show the sneaks immediately after the last scene (opposed to 24 where they go to commercial and then come back to "next week on...") However as a courtesy, I refrain from commenting on anything I've seen in the previews.

And for the poster who asked, 24 starts in January and runs for 24 straight uninterrupted weeks. No 4 week hiatus so they can run American Idol specials this year.

Max Carnage

11-04-2004, 07:19 AM

Wile E

11-04-2004, 07:52 AM

Who said the French woman was alive? All that was given was the name of the woman we heard on the tape. She had a speaking part so she was cast. No one said we'd ever see her again or who she'd be played by even if.

And Sawyer was reading Watership Down in "White Rabbit" as well. I was trying to see how much farther he's gotten in the book. He looks to be a slow reader like me :)

Well, he has been busy scavenging and hoarding. Sawyer does seem pretty hung up on Kate even though she treats him like crap. So did he know her before the plane crash? Is he just one of those guys who likes a challenge? Or maybe he thinks she's really a very naughty girl and he just needs to push the right buttons to get a response? Or is it just that there really don't seem to be a lot of eligible young women on the island? Claire's quite preggers and out of commission for a while, Sun is married to a crazy man who will kill with his bare hands if necessary, Shannon's a bit of a snot and a flake, so that leaves Kate - so what if she already seems to have two guys lined up? Or is Kate some kind of witch who has taken some potion that causes all men to fall madly in love with her?

AS Cervaise pointed out, I also liked how Sayid brought up the nature of the craash after so many were speculating on it.

NoClueBoy

11-04-2004, 08:02 AM

Yeah, any future ep insights should either be spoilered or linked, but if we put SPOILER in the threap title, then we should be able to discuss what was aired, inclu previews. It's been shown / talk about it. Haven't seen this week's show? Avoid the thread til you have. Or be very selective in your reading.

Mother Church - It was very important to Charlie at the start. He was even going to quit the band because of feeling like he was somehow letting down the Church. Even with his brother's assurances that they would walk away if it got too wierd, he still seemd doubtful. He was even worried about offending random nuns with the word "bloody."

I would like to be able to clearly see what his tattoo reads. Also, I didn't see him genuflect before going after Jack. Based on his flashback, I was sure he would. So, maybe, he doesn't believe in Mother Church anymore. Or maybe he doesn't feel worthy of the Church anymore. Remember, self worth issues seemed to drive this particular episode. Even the tiny little Boone/Shannon subplot.

Having Catholicism so prominantly featured in a character's back story has to mean something. Doesn't it? Esp with how odd their situation is in the first place. (Thanks, Cerv, I had made a mental note to discuss Saayid's insight and plumb forgot!)

SkeptiJess

11-04-2004, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by NoClueBoy The last bit with Charlie and Locke, even tho I knew exactly what he was going to do, it still worked. I really loved their facial expresssions, Chas and Locke.I agree. It was a manipulative scene (as was the one last week where Charlie first saw his guitar up in the trees), but it worked. I love Charlie (and Locke, too). And, masonite? I disagree with you here: Second, what's the terrific heroism about giving up his drugs voluntarily, instead of one week later when they run out on their own? Same result; timing just one week different.Charlie was giving up the drugs on his own, instead of waiting for them to run out so he could make it a choice. I think there is a big difference between giving something up and simply running out of it.

I also agree with those who thought Sawyer failed to tell Kate about Jack at first because he was peeved at her for the "who cares what you have to say" crack. I definately think there is more to him than meets the eye -- I'm lokking forward to getting his backstory.

I have a few thoughts about next week and I'll spoil them, just for those who don't watch the previews: Geez. I guess I'd be williing to trade a kiss for an inhaler -- at least I'd rather do that than have Sawyer tortured (which is what it looked to me like Sayid was gearing up to do) into giving up his hiding place. That said, Sawyer should have been made to give up his stash before now -- certainly all the salvage ought to be communally controlled at this point.God, I love this show!

NoClueBoy

11-04-2004, 08:28 AM

N9IWP

11-04-2004, 09:07 AM

Did anyone catch the name / model of the radio Sayid was using? I paid attention to this, but have forgot (AP-22 maybe? )

Of course, you only need two locations to triangulate a signal. I'm still not clear how the system on the show was supposed to work. Was there 3 recievers, but the other two feeding thier info to Sayids? I think I'll chaulk this up to Hollywood technobabble.

Brian

Eats_Crayons

11-04-2004, 09:19 AM

I would like to be able to clearly see what his tattoo reads.

His tattoo was front and center in a close-up in Ep.1.5 "White Rabbit" and is discussed here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5399308). It says "Living is easy... with eyes closed".

Chastain86

11-04-2004, 09:27 AM

I don't have much to contribute to this discussion, but I will say this:

If Terry O'Quinn (Locke) isn't nominated for an Emmy for Best Supporting Actor in a Drama Series next year, then there is simply no justice. The man is brilliant.

NoClueBoy

11-04-2004, 09:33 AM

If Terry O'Quinn (Locke) isn't nominated for an Emmy for Best Supporting Actor in a Drama Series next year, then there is simply no justice. The man is brilliant.

He really lights up the screen. Quite the star, let me tell y'all.

Eats, 10Q. I had to business phone talk and didn't see the whole show.

dropzone

11-04-2004, 09:46 AM

:( I saw a spoiler for the French Woman, deliberately DIDN'T read it and you just confirmed with a non spoiler that she has been cast. Sadness.Hmmmm, I quoted the the spoiler, including the unspoiled phrase "The French Woman" so you would know who I was talking about, described her as someone unlike most of the other women on the show, did not mention her by name but gave a link that you chose to click, posted after the show had been broadcast in all the Lower 48 AND after there had been an agreement to follow 24 rules, yet it's MY fault? ;)

middleman

11-04-2004, 09:49 AM

I think the person who hit Sayed has to be the one running the signal. It seemed as if the signal was right next to him. The broadcast meter was at max.

Trunk

11-04-2004, 10:19 AM

Of course, you only need two locations to triangulate a signal. I'm still not clear how the system on the show was supposed to work. Was there 3 recievers, but the other two feeding thier info to Sayids? I think I'll chaulk this up to Hollywood technobabble.

Brian

I thought you needed 3, on the remarkably slim chance that the signal was directly in line with the 2.

If you're standing in the wildnerness, you only need 2 points of reference to triangulate YOUR location because you wouldn't pick 2 points in line.

But, Sayid said something like, "if the signal is coming from within the triangle, we can find it."

AFAIK, THAT'S not the case.

Juniper200

11-04-2004, 10:24 AM

Proposed: Spoiler policy for future Lost threads.

Information about all episodes aired to this point will be unboxed.
Information about this week's episode's "next week" teasers will be unboxed. (They count as part of the episode: They're part of the main broadcast. If you want to check out the credits, you have to watch them. They're available with no effort to anyone with a tv.)
Speculation based on episodes aired up to this point (including teasers) will be unboxed.
Speculation based on information on upcoming episodes gleaned from spoiler sites will be boxed. This includes links to promo photos and screencaps. Please remember, links inside spoiler boxes are readable even to those who don't highlight.

For now, let's stop stressing about which posters revelaled what and why, with or without spoiler boxes. Mistakes were made, and for the rest of the thread, we'll all be more careful.

I totally forgot about Sayid's fit of critical thinking when I posted last night. If it's important enough for a character to bring up, it's probably time to develop our thoughts along the lines of an intelligence that wants this group alive, or one of the paranormal theories that holds each of the castaways is there for a specific reason in their pasts.

There was theorizing in previous threads that every survivor we've met so far didn't want to be on Oceanic flight 815. We saw last night that Charlie was disappointed about the circumstances of his trip and probably shouldn't have been on board -- it would have been much better for him to get some help by staying in Sydney with Liam -- but he did want to go to L.A. Thoughts?

satogata

11-04-2004, 10:39 AM

I agree with folks that think that the signal generator hit Sayed on the noggin -- good observation on the signal, watsonwil! Trunk is right about triangulation -- astrophysicists triangulate objects "outside the triangle" all the time, and you only need two points and a baseline measurement to triangulate. I also have *no* clue why they need three *simultaneous* measurements, unless they suspect that the source is moving.

I've been thinking about Sawyer and Watership Down a bit, mostly since it's one of my favorite books, but also because he's appeared reading it twice now. The rabbits in Watership Down are a ragtag bunch of survivors who have to journey through dangers and form a new community after a disaster destroys their original warren. Among these rabbits there's a reluctant leader (Hazel), a visionary, a sergeant, a storyteller, and a smart tech type (for a bunny). It feels like there are a fair number of 'reluctant leader' parallels between Hazel and Jack. Of course, I could just be thinking of this because both had to be rescued after near-death confining experiences -- that and half the group are living in holes and digging tunnels. :)

Watership Down is a fantastic political parable of autocratic vs liberal society.. I have no idea why I'd be thinking of *that* recently, but do idly wonder how long the "two camps" thing is going to last, as it splits up the storyline and feels a little too "Survivor"-ish for my tastes.

Legolamb

11-04-2004, 11:12 AM

There was theorizing in previous threads that every survivor we've met so far didn't want to be on Oceanic flight 815. We saw last night that Charlie was disappointed about the circumstances of his trip and probably shouldn't have been on board -- it would have been much better for him to get some help by staying in Sydney with Liam -- but he did want to go to L.A. Thoughts?
Well for that matter, Jack did want to go to L.A., it's just that he didn't want to be there in those circumstances. Michael wants to go back home, but now he has a son he barely knows to look after. In the same vein, Charley did want to go to L.A., but he wanted his brother to be travelling with him to restart the band, rather than flying back alone with an uncertain future.

It's less that they didn't want to be on the flight, more that they didn't want to be on the flight in the circumstances they found themsleves.

At least that's my two cents anyway.

middleman

11-04-2004, 11:14 AM

Two interpreations of the cave collapse last night:

1. It plays into the wish fullfillment theory. The cave originally collapsed amidst Charlie's anger and again when it was time for him to come out of his coccoon.

2. Seriously WAG time- "Mogo doesn't socialize!" Comic readers will know what I am talking about!

Also, the "They are already dead" WAG gained some support last night with Sayid's comment that they shouldn't have lived.

11-04-2004, 12:37 PM

The triangulation bugged me too.

The simultaneous part was completely unnecessary unless the transmitter was moving. And in that case, by the time you get there, you only know where it used to be.

I guess it must just be a limitation of the "plot devices" that Sayid made.

Two measurements would be minimal, but three will reduce the error. The direction you're finding with that radio is going to be a pretty wide swath.

Rather than make three antennas and try to get a quick measurement at the same time, I would make one antenna/radio but put more work into it to make it as accurate as possible. I would also take the measurement carefully, on a tripod, with a compass reading as well. Make sure that line is well established relative to landmarks. Then I would pick my next location based on that and swap batteries.

Oh and I don't think the radio lady whonked Sayid. If she doesn't want to be found, why is she still transmitting?

Necros

11-04-2004, 12:38 PM

11-04-2004, 12:46 PM

I've brought fireworks in my checked bags before. Granted, that was a domestic flight and in simpler times.

Charlie brought heroin. Someone else brought fireworks. Is there no security at all on Oceanic?

Legolamb

11-04-2004, 12:50 PM

That they were on the plane is a definite - as Sayid said "Thank god for fireworks smugglers". How they got on the plane without causing security problems and who put them there I don't know (maybe we'll find out in someone else's background episode? Sawyer perhaps? Sayid himself, maybe?).

Trunk

11-04-2004, 12:52 PM

Can anyone explain to me how they got fireworks on the island? AFAIK, no plane flying into the US would be allowed to carry them, even in checked luggage. I'm willing to suspend disbelief enough to accept the giant rocks that weigh five pounds that they were hauling to get Jack out, but fireworks? I dunno about that...
Didn't one of them said something like, "thank god for fireworks smugglers."

I thought last night's episode was a little bit weak. The whole moth thing was a little corny. The cave collapse, while serving as the vehicle for Hobbit's growth, also seemed just like contrived drama.

The fireworks were a lucky "coincidence".

vd is right about doing the antennas simultaneously too. There's no need for that, again, just sort of contrived to create drama.

VunderBob

11-04-2004, 01:22 PM

vd is right about doing the antennas simultaneously too. There's no need for that, again, just sort of contrived to create drama.

Yea, contrived, but if Sayid was in the Republican Guard, he might be falling back on his training to find the transmitter, and military RF detection assumes the source is mobile.

IRL, all you need is one receiver with a shielded antenna and a lot of time available to find a stationary transmitter.

Necros

11-04-2004, 01:28 PM

Ah, must have missed Sayid's coment about fireworks smugglers. Thanks.

middleman

11-04-2004, 01:42 PM

"Lost" bounced back strong Wednesday after facing playoff baseball the past two weeks, helping ABC secure a ratings win for the night.
...
"Lost" scored an 11.4/17 at 8 p.m., its best rating since its premiere.

Source: Zap2It.com

Nice! Good to see a good scifi-esque show that isn't worried at all about the ratings.

We have a top ten hit on our hands (I think it fell to #13 last week against game 7 between the Yankees and BoSox)!

Gamaliel

11-04-2004, 01:44 PM

Why would anyone smuggle fireworks from Sydney to Los Angeles?

Glory

11-04-2004, 02:03 PM

Hmmmm, I quoted the the spoiler, including the unspoiled phrase "The French Woman" so you would know who I was talking about, described her as someone unlike most of the other women on the show, did not mention her by name but gave a link that you chose to click, posted after the show had been broadcast in all the Lower 48 AND after there had been an agreement to follow 24 rules, yet it's MY fault? ;)

I didn't click your link.

I saw the original post that said "French Woman" then a spoiler box. I avoided it, not wanting to be spoiled. It could have been anything.

Just reading your post, without clicking the link was sufficient to learn that the French Woman had been cast by someone older and attractive. So, now I know (which I didn't know before) that she is going to be depicted (either alive or in a flashback). Thanks.

middleman

11-04-2004, 02:03 PM

Maybe THIS is what dastardly business Jin is performing for his father in law!

middleman

11-04-2004, 02:05 PM

My previous post was in response to Gamaliel.

Trion

11-04-2004, 02:08 PM

Ah yes, the high octane life of the international fireworks smuggler. Excitement! Adventure! Hot Chicks! All the fireworks you can eat!

No wonder Jin was so easily corrupted by Sun's dad. I know exactly wht it's like. I put myself through college by being a cherry bomb mule. You haven't lived 'till you've gone through airport security with several condoms filled with high explosives sitting in your lower intestines.

middleman

11-04-2004, 02:23 PM

You haven't lived 'till you've gone through airport security with several condoms filled with high explosives sitting in your lower intestines.

Firework Mule Training:

Lesson #315: Don't forget you have fireworks up your ass. Remember the lesson of Johnny Two-Colons. Forgeting he was running cherry bombs, Johnny attempted to amuse friends with the old "blue flame" trick. The results were not pretty.

Eats_Crayons

11-04-2004, 02:58 PM

I didn't click your link.

I saw the original post that said "French Woman" then a spoiler box. I avoided it, not wanting to be spoiled. It could have been anything.

Just reading your post, without clicking the link was sufficient to learn that the French Woman had been cast by someone older and attractive. So, now I know (which I didn't know before) that she is going to be depicted (either alive or in a flashback). Thanks.Well, we can only hope that she is just called "The Voice of the Transmission" kind of like the way Terence Stamp is the "Voice of Jor-El" on Smallville and we may see him eventually, or may never see him at all -- he may never be depicted.

Although I agree, Dropzone's post strongly implied she'll actually be on the show.

*sigh*

Well, she still night NOT be. Let's just say that a distinguished actor has a cameo as "The Voice" and may only ever be "The Voice" and not someone we can "ogle".

We don't REALLY know if they'll find the French Woman. It's still ambiguous. Really. We don't know for sure. Honest. *click my heels three times* We have not been spoiled... We have not been spoiled... We have not been spoiled....

PunditLisa

11-04-2004, 04:47 PM

1) Okay, we've had one drowning, one near drowning, and a man nearly beaten to death on the beach by a crazed Korean mafia dude.

WHERE THE HELL HAVE SCOTT AND STEVE BEEN? And they call Charlie useless?

2) Why do people have to commit to the beach OR the caves? I can see value in both places. Though I imagine the cave soundstage makes filming a lot easier and less costly. The beach scenes do make me long for Hawaii....

3) Jack should be shirtless at least once in every episode.

4) Did they not have a key for those handcuffs when they slipped them on Jin? Man, that would suck having to wear that the rest of the time. (And we KNEW they'd need those handcuffs again!)

Juniper200

11-04-2004, 05:00 PM

Why would anyone smuggle fireworks from Sydney to Los Angeles?
Yeah, seriously. I think people in Australia can only buy stuff like sparklers and snakes. They don't have any sparkly, explosive ordinance we can't get in the States.

As for the whole fire the rockets, turn on the transmitters thing, I thought Sayid said the batteries were almost all dead, so they didn't have the luxury of letting one run while they set up the others.

misstee

11-04-2004, 05:09 PM

Maybe THIS is what dastardly business Jin is performing for his father in law!

Ha! That was the first thing I thought of when I read Gamaliel's post!

So did anyone else wonder how Locke knew that Charlie was going to come ask him for the drugs the second time just in time to be the bait to lure the warthog into the trap????

Silver Fire

11-04-2004, 05:11 PM

WHERE THE HELL HAVE SCOTT AND STEVE BEEN?
Did I miss something? Who are Scott and Steve?

Juniper, I agree with your spoiler policies.

BiblioCat

11-04-2004, 05:20 PM

Did I miss something? Who are Scott and Steve?

When Jack got stuck in the cave, someone ran back to the beach for help and yelled for help. Michael (?) looked at one guy and said, "Steve...." and that guy said, "I"m Scott, he's Steve" while pointing to the guy with him.
They were just two of the other survivors that have so far been in the background.

misstee

11-04-2004, 05:20 PM

Did I miss something? Who are Scott and Steve?

.

Scott and Steve are two of the other castaways. They were down on the beach when Charlie went to get help.

Encinitas

11-04-2004, 05:22 PM

I had a couple of thoughts about last night's episode. Yes the cgi moth could have been better and they really didn't need to bludgeon us over the head with the rebirth metaphor. But still I liked it. I don't think that Dominick can really play the guitar (or sing) beyond a few chords, and I hate that song. Also, Jack sure had a nice bright flashlight in the cave with a really strong battery. Too bad Sayid didn't have it to run the tranciever/triangulation thingy.

What follows is pure speculation and is not based on any special knowledge:

A crazy thought struck me (rather violently I might say) in the middle of the night last night. Namely, do we really know that the pilot is dead or that if that guy they talked to was even the real pilot? They didn't retrieve the body (as far as we know). They just assumed that he was the pilot because he was sitting in the cockpit in a uniform. It had been 16 hours since the crash and he's just sitting around waiting for someone to show up? Admitedly he supposedly had a concusion but he sure revived quickly when they stumbled across him. And that transciever was sure easy to find. Everything he told them about the radio and their location and why they crashed could be disinformation. That guy could be walking around the island bashing people with logs! I tell you that thought made it impossible for me to go back to sleep. However, I could be barking mad, so just forget what I said (I've been wrong before, i.e. Sun & Jin's martial status).

BiblioCat

11-04-2004, 05:26 PM

SenorBeef

11-04-2004, 05:29 PM

Can someone clear up the triangulation thing for me?

I remember learning triangulation technique to locate the epicenter of an earthquake in middle school. You'd have the time 3 different stations received the shocks, and basically draw 3 circles around each station, with the time they received the shocks determining the size of the circles, and the overlapping area would be the epicenter.

Since I doubt they can time things so precisely as to measure differences in a light-speed transmission, I assume here that they're looking for a directional signal? They get a bearing at each station, draw a line, and where the lines intersect is the source, right? In that case, you'd only need 2 stations, the third not really adding anything. But if that's the case, why do they call it triangulation?

SenorBeef

11-04-2004, 05:30 PM

Eats_Crayons

11-04-2004, 05:54 PM

Actually, the last question is still valid - why is it called triangulation when you only need 2 readings?WAG - because you're using two points to establish the third?

I think it's basic vector addition. Kinda like if you walk three steps forward, and then four steps to the right, the straight line from where you started and where you stopped would be five steps in a straight, line diagonally from where you started.

Again, that's a WAG. I understand vector addition stuff with different forces, but not so much the whole "finding a signal" thing. Waggy, wag, wag.

N9IWP

11-04-2004, 05:55 PM

I'm guessing because you have the baseline between the two points, and the two lines going towards the thing you are tracking (thus forming a triangle)

Brian

11-04-2004, 05:57 PM

Woops. Ignore that last one... I wrote it up and meant to not post it because it was answered.

Actually, the last question is still valid - why is it called triangulation when you only need 2 readings?
Drawing the circles finding the epicenter is actuall trilateration where you know the distance from known points. GPS works like that too, where the known points are the satellites.

Triangulation is where you know the direction from known points. You draw lines from those points and they intersect where you are looking for (which would be the third point in the triangle).

Silver Fire

11-04-2004, 08:13 PM

Oh, okay. I remember them now. They both sounded really whiny.

Thanks Bibliocat. And misstee. And, umm... Bibliocat. :D

Antigen

11-04-2004, 08:54 PM

I totally forgot about Sayid's fit of critical thinking when I posted last night. If it's important enough for a character to bring up, it's probably time to develop our thoughts along the lines of an intelligence that wants this group alive, or one of the paranormal theories that holds each of the castaways is there for a specific reason in their pasts.

I think I missed a few minutes of the episode, because I don't remember him making any sort of speech besides giving instructions for the triangulation. Can someone fill me in?

I had the same thought as Misnomer - Sawyer isn't the redneck loser we take him for. He's playing that role right now because it suits him, but I think he's much more educated and important than we think.

And there was definitely more discussed last week between Michael and Sun than just the watch. He glanced at her often in this episode, and he corrected someone who called her Chinese. Something's going on there for sure.

NoClueBoy

11-04-2004, 09:48 PM

I think I missed a few minutes of the episode, because I don't remember him making any sort of speech besides giving instructions for the triangulation. Can someone fill me in?

It wasn't so much of a speech as a few words said while walking with Kate to set up one of the antennae. He basically said, "When the tail fell off, and we crashed. that should've been it. We shouldn't be alive." And the Sawyer Brown showed up to be mean to Kate the Fugitive and nothing more was said of it.

Spree

11-04-2004, 10:18 PM

A crazy thought struck me (rather violently I might say) in the middle of the night last night.Encinitas, that is wild, because I woke up at about 3 am with a theory as well! I kid you not!

In Stephen King's "The Langoliers", a handful of sleeping passengers on a redeye flight wake up to find the plane still flying but everyone else - passengers, pilots, and crew - has vanished. One of the characters suggests that perhaps it's an experiment - they were hypnotized to believe they were on a flight, then sedated and allowed to wake up and believe that everyone else had disappeared. That was not the case in the story, but I remember the theory.

Anyhoo, one of the theories I had considered was the "Dr. Moreau, mad scientist" theme...but then I wondered how on earth the mad doctor could engineer a plane wreck to happen, the plane to land on the island, and passengers to survive. That's pretty implausible, IMO. So last night I woke up, remembered the King story, and wondered if maybe the passengers had been hypnotized to believe they had been in a plane accident. I remembered Jack's and Locke's stories both started with them waking up after the crash, so it kind of fit. The mad scientist(s) could then make weird things happen (polar bear? 16-year distress signal?) and it would fit within the realm of possibility given the circumstances.

But then I remembered that Kate says she was awake the whole time, so that shot my theory out of the air. But, still, for middle of the night, dream-induced theories, I don't think it was so bad!

Fiver

11-05-2004, 09:47 AM

And there was definitely more discussed last week between Michael and Sun than just the watch. He glanced at her often in this episode, and he corrected someone who called her Chinese. Something's going on there for sure.
And when Walt asked if they could move from the beach to the caves, Michael looked right over at Sun. He's definitely into her, and who could blame him?

Speaking of whom, whoever's making the spreadsheet about what we know and don't know, please note this:

Jin speaks no English.
Sun speaks English, but Jin doesn't know she speaks English. Only Michael knows.

That's what the show has told us. But maybe there's more! Maybe:

Jin speaks English too, but Sun doesn't know it.
Jin knows Sun speaks English, but Sun doesn't know he knows.

Trunk

11-05-2004, 10:17 AM

jsc1953

11-05-2004, 11:58 AM

Did anyone else catch this?

When Locke was showing Chas the moth cocoon, he pointed out a tiny hole at the top, and said the moth had to struggle to get out.

In the cave, Chas spots a tiny hole at the top, and had to struggle to get out.

In Christianity, Jesus points out that you are in a mess in this world and have to struggle to get out!

More little hints about the importance of Charlie's spirituality, maybe. Because it was after he climbed up from death inside the world (cave) that he destroyed the drugs.

My way out insight of the week.

Or maybe, Charlie's just a Catholic, and had a hard time reconciling his faith with his rock-star lifestyle. In other words, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There's about a billion Catholics in the world; the odds were that one would wind up as a character on a TV show sooner or later.

:)

dropzone

11-05-2004, 12:04 PM

Although I agree, Dropzone's post strongly implied she'll actually be on the show. Jebus, if just being a mysterious voice isn't "on the show" I've got some bad news for Leslie Nielsen (the voice of Bracken on "Bracken's World"), John Forsythe (Charlie on "Charlie's Angels"), and Lorenzo Music (Carlton the Doorman on "Rhoda"). They didn't really earn their paychecks. :D

Eats_Crayons

11-05-2004, 12:11 PM

Jebus, if just being a mysterious voice isn't "on the show" I've got some bad news for Leslie Nielsen (the voice of Bracken on "Bracken's World"), John Forsythe (Charlie on "Charlie's Angels"), and Lorenzo Music (Carlton the Doorman on "Rhoda"). They didn't really earn their paychecks. :D
Okay, then let me rephrase:
Dropzone's post strongly implied that she will be on the show to the extent that she will be seen (so that older viewers can "not feel pervy ogling"), the other characters will meet her, and thus there is some mystery that may have been spoiled with respect to whether or not our heroes will find the French woman.

Better?

Eats_Crayons

11-05-2004, 12:24 PM

And again, I'm hoping that the "yay, fresh meet to ogle" was just jumping the gun bit and we don't REALLY know if she's just cast as a voice over, like Jor-El, or if she'll be onscreen.

That's a mystery I'd like kept unspoiled.

*quitting all lost threads now for my own protection*

Cervaise

11-05-2004, 12:44 PM

Or maybe, Charlie's just a Catholic, and had a hard time reconciling his faith with his rock-star lifestyle.I've been thinking about this the last couple of days, and I've decided I liked this backstory, clichéd though certain aspects of it may be.

I thought the writing at the beginning was pretty nifty. The confession booth scene, where Charlie was telling the priest about having relations with one woman, then another woman, then watching them have relations, started out as kind of a cute joke, and then it turned into Charlie actually having a legitimate crisis of faith. It's a nice storytelling technique to get us smiling and while our defenses are down slip into a serious moment; it makes what's being discussed feel more significant. And for Charlie, clearly, his religious faith is very important. Even as a non-religious person myself, I really like that we've got a mainstream show in which a significant character struggles with his faith but keeps coming back to it. It's a nice touch.

(Oh, and the moth-being-reborn stuff was kind of ticky-tacky, kind of notice-the-script stuff, but I thought Dominic sold it quite well, so it worked for me.)

But the reason I really like the religious angle is this: When considering Charlie, the character who most clearly has been shown to feel a need for an external moral compass, who had a choice between his church and rock-god stardom and for a remarkably long time chose church... Is it a coincidence that Charlie, who clearly needs a moral guide to replace the church he no longer has access to, has latched so strongly onto Locke, the evident mystical prophet on the show?

NoClueBoy

11-05-2004, 01:36 PM

There I was, feeling all invisible and stuff, when BAM! Two in a row discussing my view on Charlie's religions.

[sniff] I do belong!

Anyways, I don't think the writers of Lost would just throw religion out there for a neat touch. No, for Charlie, and maybe for the series, "this means something."

Like Scully and her subtle transformation in X-Files. Remember how she went from just having a Catholic background to really believing that something is out there? For Mulder, it was aliens. For Scully, it was God.

Maybe, this island lets you decide what it is going to be for you. For some, it's redemption. For others, rebirth. Both very religious concepts if one applies it that way.

Or, it could all be part of the smoke and mirrrors of the series for US.

Time will tell, but making Charlie a religious man has a purpose, imho.

dropzone

11-05-2004, 03:24 PM

Better?Better, but you were closer when you suggested I was jumping the gun and just a wee bit too hopeful (since I had not gone to any of the spoiler sites and have no idea if she will be more than a sexy accent) that I'd get to ogle her.

As for your threat to quit "Lost" threads for fear of spoilers, I trust you are joking.

I'm not surprised that Charlie is religious. It's a continuation of the "Things are not as they seem" theme running through the show: Pretty, sweet, and feminine Kate is a scary international fugitive (that Fed didn't want anyone selling her short), Jin is not just a businessman but is also the "muscle" in a Korean gang, Sun really speaks English, Locke is "really" a crippled wannabe, Shannon isn't a COMPLETE flake, and Jack isn't really a doctor (not a spoiler, just a guess based on how his father continued to talk to him after he grew up).

middleman

11-05-2004, 03:36 PM

For comic fans (though no one took my "Mogo Doesn't Socialize" bait), did anyone notice that Paul Dini wrote this episode? He is listed as a Story Editor every week.

Askia

11-06-2004, 02:12 AM

watsonwil. I did see Paul Dini's name in the credits and wondered if that was the same Paul Dini of the WB Batman/Superman cartoons fame. He's probably the one who suggested that FLASH comic with the polar bears that was deliberately planted as a clue. Hmmmm.

As for Mogo, I'll start keeing an eye out for large swathes of well-tended grasses and in the clearings that indicate signs of some mysterious intelligence. Y'know, like SIGNS minus the pretentiousness.

Well, thank you, masonite... I was beginning to think no one noticed or appreciated my guesses about the secondary meanings of the episode titles so far.... the only thing I didn't guess was the appearance of an actual moth to facilitate the double meaning/symbolism/episode theme.... so I think instead of two meanings, we had the literal appearances of several moths and Charlie emerging from his own cocoon as a symbolic one...

As for why they chose "Moth" over "Butterfly," masonite.... I think your own question contains part of the answer... butterfly, being more familair, simply doesn't evoke the same sense of ambiguity and mystery as "The Moth". Plus, it's easier to explain why a nocturnal moth might appear in a lightless cave-in than a butterfly....

But maybe they won't be continuing the episode title double meaning clues pattern. I have NO clue what they're doing in upcoming episodes like "Raised By Another," "All The Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues" and "Hearts and Minds"--- well, I can think of one for "Daddy Issues" but it's kind of in poor taste,

middleman

11-06-2004, 07:35 AM

I appears to be the same Paul Dini. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0227704/)

Elethiomel

11-06-2004, 12:21 PM

If Sayid was able to make antennae that were directional enough to be used for triangulation in a "find-the-direction-to-the-signal-from-here" sense, then he'd need only two measuring points (and he'd have to swing the antenna back and forth to find out from which direction the signal was strongest). I suspect that he was unable to do that from the scrap and spare parts he had available. Instead, he'd have to use the "measure the time the signal takes to points 1, 2, and 3 and figure out the difference" method. In this case, you -always- need three antennae, because two antennae will give you a line rather than a point, and you -always- need to measure it simultaneously, because if you don't you can't measure the time differential in any meaningful way (well, you could if you could move several times the speed of light).

I never watch the previews for next week. I enjoy speculation, but I only gather my actual information from one source - the show in and of itself. What actors are in it, I ignore. I don't watch the credits - writers' names, producers' names, etc, I can find out from TV-Tome after the fact. Thus, I shall stay out of future Lost threads unless the OP states clearly that any information that is not part of this week's show - and then I mean part of the show not the credits, previews, etc - will be spoiler-boxed. That's just little old me, though.

kimera

11-06-2004, 01:36 PM

Someone was asking for a translator for the parts when the Korean wasn't subtitled. I forget what exactly was needed, but I did remember someone asking what she was saying in that scene where Michael asked her to watch his kid. What she said was "'I understand, don't worry, I will watch him." and when Michael leaves she tells the boy "don't worry, your dad will be fine."

So pretty basic stuff.

MEBuckner

11-06-2004, 05:31 PM

I'm Steve, he's Scott.

Well, if I was around Charlie, I'd try to take the drugs in case the doctor needed them. While not the best choice in the world, it might beat having your apendix removed with just a branch between your teeth...
That thought occured to me, too. Instead of hurling them in the fire, it would have been more practical and helpful for Charlie to turn them over to the doctor. While dangerous, opiates (I'm assuming they're some kind of opiates) do have medical uses.

Cuckoorex

11-07-2004, 01:29 AM

Bah! He needed to throw them out, to prove to himself that he was stronger than the addiction. It's drama, people!

NoClueBoy

11-07-2004, 08:20 AM

Agree. The symbolism was stronger this way. Imagine the other scene:

Charlie: "Hey, Doc. Want some drugs?"

Jack: "No! Of course I don't want any drugs, you junky. Oh wait, you mean to keep on hand for use in case anyone gets seriously injured or needs a major operation? Well, sure, little buddy. That's realy nice of you."

Charlie: "Yeah. Well, you know. I'm famous, you know. But I don't want to be a drug addict anymore. I want to be in control of my own destiny."

Jack: "Yeah."

Charlie: "Yeah."

[long pause]

Charlie: "So..., Kate's pretty hot."

Jack: "Yeah. She sure sweats a lot, tho. Not like that Chinese chick."

Charlie: "Yeah! She's SMOKIN'! And not Chinese, by the way. Korean."

Jack: "Yeah?"

Charlie: "Yeah."

['nother long pause]

Jack: "So..., what's the deal with Locke?"

Charlie: "I don't know man. Kinda weirds me out, you know?"

Jack: "Yeah."

Charlie: "Hey, look! Is that a digital representation of a moth?"

Jack: "Sure looks like one. Man, this island blows."

Charlie: "Yeah."

Jack: "Yeah."

Doggie: "Arf."

Much better the way they did it. Yeah.

MEBuckner

11-07-2004, 11:30 AM

Otto

11-07-2004, 12:17 PM

As for why they chose "Moth" over "Butterfly," masonite.... I think your own question contains part of the answer... butterfly, being more familair, simply doesn't evoke the same sense of ambiguity and mystery as "The Moth". Plus, it's easier to explain why a nocturnal moth might appear in a lightless cave-in than a butterfly.... See now, I took it to be a reference to Charlie and his brother. When Locke points out the cocoon and Charlie guesses a butterfly's inside, Locke says something about how butterflies get all the attention but moths are cooler. Like how Charlie's brother got all the attention in the band when it was Charlie who started off as the driving force.

In other words, completely ham-fisted.

Antigen

11-07-2004, 12:43 PM

Yeah, I know why they did it. But it was a cliche this way, and it would have been cool to have avoided a cliche.

Charlie (to Locke): Give me back my drugs!
Locke: OK, if you're sure about this...this is the third time. Hands Charlie the drugs.

Charlies marches over to Jack.

Charlie (to Jack): Here. You should take these. Other people may wind up needing them more than I do.

But the problem with that is the drugs would still be around. Charlie knows he's weak in the face of temptation, and by throwing them in the fire he's making his choice final. No chance of him going crazy next week and trying to fight Jack for them, or stealing them in the night. This act has more finality to it. There is no going back to the drugs for Charlie - time to move on and see what he can contribute now that all of his waking thoughts aren't going to be about his stash.

Larry Mudd

11-07-2004, 04:44 PM

Just caught the show last night on a repeat. Great episode!

A coupla things about Charlie's spiritual stuff. I'm surprised that no-one has commented on the cause of the cave-in -- unless it's because it's so obvious. Instant (and ironic) smiting for his hubris:

Charlie: "I AM A ROCK GOD!!!"
Oh yeah? *gentle shower of rocks* :D

About the "moth/butterfly" thing, while butterflies are the usual transformational symbol, moths are more specifically symbolic because they're nocturnal and grope toward the light. You've got the additional level there that they can be destructively drawn toward terrestrial light (such as a candle's flame,) but the primary impulse is to strive idealistically for distant celestial light (as the moon.) Butterflies don't have that going on. Also, as Locke (and another poster, somewhere up there) pointed out, butterflies get the attention because they are gaudy, but moths spin silk. Charlie's sense of self-worth is shifting from being based on being admired, to being admirable. From here on in, he'll be doing a lot less fishing for attention for being 'famous' (and being petulant when people seem disinterested,) and more time pitching in with the quotidian tasks that need to be doneto ensure the group's survival.

The story John Locke related is a well-known inspirational allegory:The Moth
A man found a cocoon of an emperor moth. He took it home, so that he could watch the moth come out of the cocoon. One day, a small opening appeared, and he sat still, watching for several hours, as the moth struggled to force its body through the little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had gotten as far as it could and it could go no farther. It seemed to be stuck. Then the man, in his kindness, decided to help the moth.

So he took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The moth then emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings. The man continued to watch the moth, because he expected at any moment the wings would enlarge and expand to be able to support the body, which would contract in time. Neither happened! In fact, the little moth spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.

What the man in his kindness and haste did not understand was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the moth to get through the tiny opening, were God's way of forcing fluid from the body of the moth, into its wings, so it would be ready for flight, once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon. Freedom and flight would only come after the struggle. By depriving the moth of a struggle, the man deprived the moth of health.

Sometimes, struggles are exactly what we need in our life. If God allowed us to go through our life without any obstacles, He would cripple us. We would not be as strong as what we could have been.

Antonius Block

11-07-2004, 04:47 PM

Well, my theory is that Dominic Monaghan (Charlie) wanted the "throwing into the fire" scene written in.

After all, he's spent a fair percentage of his adult life working on a project in which there's an object that has the power to control the minds of even the strongest beings, and is almost impossible to give up voluntarily. In that story, some other short guys went off to toss it into the fire, so Dom/Charlie probably figured it was his turn to do a "see I can destroy the Preciousss" scene.

Add that to his "hobbits are really good at getting into and out of holes in the ground" act in this episode, and his hoodie looking a bit like an Elven cloak or Nazgul robe (as well as the obvious monk's robe harking back to his Catholicism), and I conclude that the "Lost" writers are having a bit of fun with references to Dom's best-known previous role (no offence intended to Hetty Wainthropp fans).