Can we have a Political Debates forum?

[Polerius]

I posted this question in IMHO (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284608), since it was a sort of poll, but maybe ATMB is a better place to ask the question.

I think it would be a great idea to have a "Political Debates" forum where all political debates would happen, so as not to clutter the "Great Debates" forum.

I think Great Debates should be reserved for great debates, and not be filled with "Kerry did this" and "Bush did that". I don't think current political discussions are "long-running discussions of the great questions of our time", which is supposed to be the description of Great Debates.

For example, some of the current threads in Great Debates:
- Bush Supporters: What do you expect?
- How did the Democratic Party blow this election as badly as they did? How??
- What can we expect of Bush's second term?
- Kerry Concedes The Race to Bush!

would be better suited for the Political Debates forum.

So, can we have a Political Debates forum?

[Polycarp]

With the exception of Cafe Society, which has a particular and unusual justification, it's not been the policy of this board to create subject matter forums, but rather to divide threads on the basis of their characteristics -- a question about Cannabis sativa, for example, might constitute a Great Debate (relative advantages and dangers of legalization), a General Question (what precisely is the physiological mechanism by which smoking pot gets you high?), a Pit thread (rant on some aspect of marijuana laws, for example), IMHO (what do you think ought to be government policy about it), CCC (someone taking issue on what Cecil said about it in a column), or CSR (someone taking issue with a comment i in a staff report).

However, I think that Polerius's suggestion does have merit -- since 2000 a great part of both GD and the Pit, with occasional excursions into the other forums, has been devoted to American politics, with occasional discussions of Canadian, British, and Australian politics.

I'd conceive of it as being a politics-centric GD forum with rants against specific politicians, parties, and ideologies permitted (but not against individual Dopers). Threads that broke out into a political argument would be moved there from the other forums, and those who wanted to explore serious topics regarding political issues would start their threads there.

I'd urge staff to give it serious consideration, to correct the overdominance of GD and the Pit by those issues that has happened of late. It's a major change from established policy, but it may be the appropriate one to make at this point in time.

[Berkut]

I'd urge staff to give it serious consideration, to correct the overdominance of GD and the Pit by those issues that has happened of late.I don't think it would contribute anything towards cleaning up The Pit. People don't want to discuss politics on here unless they can call someone else a pigfucker* while doing it. Also, how would you seperate borderline debates? A thread on gun control, gay marriage, or abortion could easily be a Great Debate, a Politcal Debate, or even a Pit thread.

I think we would just end up with three forums full of Political BS instead of two.


*substitute any other appropriate word (asshole, moron, nazi, cockmaster, jerk, bigot, republican, democrat, etc) for someone who doesn't share your beliefs, or who might disagree with you.

[Polerius]

People don't want to discuss politics on here unless they can call someone else a pigfucker* while doing it.
People currently discuss politics in GD where they can't call someone else a pigfucker, so I don't see that as a problem.

Also, how would you seperate borderline debates? A thread on gun control, gay marriage, or abortion could easily be a Great Debate, a Politcal Debate, or even a Pit thread.
A general thread about whether gun control is beneficial should go into GD.
A thread about the expiration of a gun law should go into PD.

A thread about the effects of abortion on society should go into GD.
A thread about a senator who just voted against some abortion-related law should go into PD.

A thread about whether society should recognize gay marriage should go into GD.
A thread discussing the fact that several states passed an anti-gay-marriage ban should go into PD.

All the ranting and observations about the latest election should go into PD.

[TubaDiva]

Like all the other cries for more topic-specific forums, can't really see a need large enough to do this. I think what we have currently in place is sufficient for the needs of the community.

This is especially true considering that we just finished off a major election in the United States. Sure, there's going to be a lot to talk about in the wake of the second Bush term, but it pales in the wake of a major election cycle.

We've had many requests for this sort of thing, just put in the topic of your choice (and everyone has a different one, too!) and gee, wouldn't it be great if there was a forum just for that! All my favorite thing all the time! But that's not how this board operates.

For most people, "won't clutter up the board with this topic" usually translates into "removes from my sight all the stuff I don't want to get into." And I have had people write me and say exactly that. "I want a forum with just the stuff I want to talk about, so why can't we have _______? I don't want to bother with the rest and it irritates me to page through it to get to what I care about." I also routinely get email with the suggestion that to improve board performance we eliminate certain areas entirely. MPSIMS and The Pit are most often pointed out by these people as the best ones to jettison. That's not going to happen either.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

[Polerius]

We've had many requests for this sort of thing, just put in the topic of your choice (and everyone has a different one, too!) and gee, wouldn't it be great if there was a forum just for that! All my favorite thing all the time!
Name one other topic that dominates GD and the Pit.

I can't think of any other specific topic that swamps out all other discussions in these forums.

So, political threads are not "just another topic of choice", but the only topic that is impeding the purpose of GD.

IMHO, of course.

[Berkut]

People currently discuss politics in GD where they can't call someone else a pigfucker, so I don't see that as a problem.I was addressing Polycarp's comment that it would help in The Pit.
A general thread about whether gun control is beneficial should go into GD.
A thread about the expiration of a gun law should go into PD.

A thread about the effects of abortion on society should go into GD.
A thread about a senator who just voted against some abortion-related law should go into PD.

A thread about whether society should recognize gay marriage should go into GD.
A thread discussing the fact that several states passed an anti-gay-marriage ban should go into PD.

All the ranting and observations about the latest election should go into PD.While it's easy to come up with a few example threads that are easy to define, it would never work in practice. Threads wander too much. Do you think you could have a gay marriage debate in GD that wouldn't somehow involve politics? How would you enforce it? Would you warn users that make political comments in GD threads, or would you just move the thread to PD?

The line between GD and PD would be too thin. Threads would constantly be crossing that line, and in the end you would be better off just having it all in one forum anyway.

I would love to have a politics-free GD, but I can't see it happening.

[Polerius]

I can't think of any other specific topic that swamps out all other discussions in these forums.
As a small example of how this is affecting the SDMB, Lobsang started a thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284832) "Wake me up when the Straight Dope Message Board is back", in which he said
Any predictions on when this place will be back to normal?

The problem is that it may never be "back to normal" given the bitter polarization of the American electorate.

And another quote from Finagle:
Yeah, I'm not going back into the Pit or Great Debates until they've swept up all the mess from all the heads exploding.

What other specific subject makes people react like this?

[Polerius]

While it's easy to come up with a few example threads that are easy to define, it would never work in practice. Threads wander too much. Do you think you could have a gay marriage debate in GD that wouldn't somehow involve politics? How would you enforce it? Would you warn users that make political comments in GD threads, or would you just move the thread to PD?
Doesn't this sort of thing happen today with the GD/Pit distinctions?
That is, a thread starts in GD, but when the tone gets ugly, it gets moved to the Pit.
So, how is this a problem only with PD?

[TubaDiva]

That's just the point: Political debate is like any other debate around here, or should be.

Re Lobsang's comment: If someone chooses not to participate, that's okay too. You don't like the content? Do better, put up other stuff, get involved in something YOU like here. This place is what you make it. At the same time, you can't deny others the right to pursue that which is meaningful to them. You don't have to play, but you do need to be respectful of others, just as you would ask them to be respectful of you.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

[Excalibre]

That's just the point: Political debate is like any other debate around here, or should be.

Re Lobsang's comment: If someone chooses not to participate, that's okay too. You don't like the content? Do better, put up other stuff, get involved in something YOU like here. This place is what you make it. At the same time, you can't deny others the right to pursue that which is meaningful to them. You don't have to play, but you do need to be respectful of others, just as you would ask them to be respectful of you.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
I hear that, but the entire time I've been here, which is somewhere in the vicinity of a year, politics has by far dominated GD and it's certainly been the biggest topic in the Pit, even if it's only a plurality, not a majority, of threads. Now, this whole year has been one of political campaigning, but I'm betting both forums are dominated by politics even during the off season - after all, the US has a major election in 2006 as well - won't there be posts about the makeup of the House and Senate? About gubernatorial races?

It's not necessarily about avoiding what we find distasteful (though, if so many of us do find it distasteful, isn't that worth something?) It's about being able to have Great Debates that don't revolve around politics. These threads aren't just irritating - they push other, also relevant threads off the screen and into obscurity. I basically consider GD to be the "politics" forum as it is, since it's so hard to find any other content there.

There's already a forum for discussing pop culture; why not one for politics?

[Chronos]

There isn't a forum for discussing pop culture. There's a forum for discussing culture, but you can get threads in there about Shakespeare, Beowulf, the Iliad, and Gilgamesh, which aren't exactly pop.

And if so much of GD is political, one must wonder what would be left, if all political questions were moved elsewhere? Sure, you'd still have the odd discussion of philoso-logical analyses of ontological arguments, but really, how many of those are there? If political questions were close to half of the content of GD, then you might have an argument to separate them out, but as it is, you'd end up with a new forum almost identical to GD but with a different name, and a ghost town that retains the GD name without most of the content.

[Liberal]

As a former inventory manager for a wholesale distributor of industrial supplies, I can testify that classification is 1% science, 9% art, and 90% percent frustration. One man prefers "cutting tools", and another prefers "drill accessories". To top it all off, there inevitably has to be a "miscellaneous" category where, eventually, almost everything is thrown once the system's novelty has worn off. Where, for example, would we debate libertarianism? True, it is a political philosophy, but it is also a philosophical ethic (noncoercion).

[Polerius]

As a former inventory manager for a wholesale distributor of industrial supplies, I can testify that classification is 1% science, 9% art, and 90% percent frustration. One man prefers "cutting tools", and another prefers "drill accessories". To top it all off, there inevitably has to be a "miscellaneous" category where, eventually, almost everything is thrown once the system's novelty has worn off.
Let's not have any forums then. Since classification is impossible, why have Cafe Society, IMHO, MPSIMS, etc?

Where, for example, would we debate libertarianism? True, it is a political philosophy, but it is also a philosophical ethic (noncoercion).
This is easy: it should be debated in GD.

[Polerius]

If political questions were close to half of the content of GD, then you might have an argument to separate them out, but as it is, you'd end up with a new forum almost identical to GD but with a different name, and a ghost town that retains the GD name without most of the content.
Actually, a quick sorting of the current threads in GD shows that roughly half qualify for PD, so GD would still have half of its current threads and won't turn into a "ghost town"

Here are the results of some quick sorting into GD and PD of the current threads in GD:


GREAT DEBATES
Is paying off your home early a good investment
To those opposed to gay marriage: Why?
Is there anyone here against gay marriage AND civil unions?
Driving under the speed limit
Social Conservatism Explained
Let's debate vouchers.
Why is the metric system better than the imperial system?
USA: being wealthy is ok... intelligent bad ?
Free will, Christianity and The Law
Miles Per Gallon is a Silly Way to Measure Fuel Efficiency
Buried or Cremated: Convince me I should be one, but not the other
Osama: Mastermind or Figurehead
Homosexuality a choice = heterosexuality a choice?
Do we need a stable consistent focus derived from a holistic rendering?
Return of the Scopes Monkey Trial
Wetback, how offensive was this useage?
A Payroll Tax Reform Proposal
Gay Dopers, if you could take a pill and be straight. . .
Why does the great majority of Jews vote democratic?
How can people be legally oppossed to gay marriage?
Would the US negotiate with terrorists if the POTUS was kidnapped?
What are the signs of the apocalypse and coming rapture?
Polls: Trust those with something to lose.
Does science have any obligations regarding God?
Micah 5:2 Messianic Prophecy?


POLITICAL DEBATES
Howard Dean for Chairman of the DNC?
Resolved: The Democratic party has moved too far to the left
Does blackboxvoting.org have hard evidence fraud took place in Tuesday's election?
How do I join the resistance?
Thoughts on the 2004 election
Tinfoil Hat Time
The Democratic Party should drop the gun control issue
So what's with New Hampshire?
Lessons Learned [by the Democrats from the 2004 elections]
Election questions for Bush supporters
Why the left alienates voters
Various kinds of Tax reform: Bush's 2nd term
Is Larry Kramer right?
Who's Vulnerable in 2006?
Political partisans: do you value the opposition?
2008 Presidential Race: Who vs. Who?
Who will the US send to Arafat's funeral?
Has Schwartzenegger won special favor for California from Bush
Why is Indiana so pro-Bush?
Meanwhile in Kansas.. (Anti-evolution is back, thanks to the election too!)
Even with Lawrence vs Texas, we should work to take sodomy laws off the books.
We're in the home stretch: Election predictions
Bush's Second Term Economic Plan
George Will: Watergate of 1980?

[C K Dexter Haven]

Since classification is impossible, why have Cafe Society, IMHO, MPSIMS, etc? Just because there are areas of grey, doesn't mean there isn't black and white. There are some questions that fit very neatly into one category or 'tother, and there are some questions where classification is ambiguous.

When we initially went to set things up, we thought of going by topic -- politics, arts, social sciences, physical science, etc. We then looked at some of the questions that Cecil typically gets, and it was pretty clear that they don't fit those traditional categories. So we categorized by style of question rather than content -- General Questions for questions that can probably be answerd, Great Debates for debates (questions that probably can't be answered), Comments on... for comments, IMHO for opinions, the Pit for flames, &c. The only exceptions were About This Message Board, because we felt the need for such. And then Cafe Society was added as the significant exception to our general categorization, since that's really a topic-related forum.

I don't think we feel any particular need to subdivide one forum into separate topics. It's an interesting idea, and if/when we get significantly larger, we might reconsider it.

The last year has been exceptional in terms of political threads because of the U.S. political scene. My suggestion is that you wait another month or so, and see if the political discussions don't abate considerably.

[Polycarp]

Just because there are areas of grey, doesn't mean there isn't black and white. There are some questions that fit very neatly into one category or 'tother, and there are some questions where classification is ambiguous.

When we initially went to set things up, we thought of going by topic -- politics, arts, social sciences, physical science, etc. We then looked at some of the questions that Cecil typically gets, and it was pretty clear that they don't fit those traditional categories. So we categorized by style of question rather than content -- General Questions for questions that can probably be answerd, Great Debates for debates (questions that probably can't be answered), Comments on... for comments, IMHO for opinions, the Pit for flames, &c. The only exceptions were About This Message Board, because we felt the need for such. And then Cafe Society was added as the significant exception to our general categorization, since that's really a topic-related forum.

I don't think we feel any particular need to subdivide one forum into separate topics. It's an interesting idea, and if/when we get significantly larger, we might reconsider it.

The last year has been exceptional in terms of political threads because of the U.S. political scene. My suggestion is that you wait another month or so, and see if the political discussions don't abate considerably.

That's the understanding I had and therefore the approach that I took in responding to this thread, Dex. Given your last paragraph, though, may I respectfully ask that staff adopt the same advice -- and review the question in a month or so if political discussions don't "abate considerably"?

[Polerius]

The last year has been exceptional in terms of political threads because of the U.S. political scene. My suggestion is that you wait another month or so, and see if the political discussions don't abate considerably.
Sounds fine to me.

But I'm curious about the following:
And then Cafe Society was added as the significant exception to our general categorization, since that's really a topic-related forum.
Why was a "significant exception" made for this topic?

[samclem]

Sounds fine to me.

But I'm curious about the following:And then Cafe Society was added as the significant exception to our general categorization, since that's really a topic-related forum.

Why was a "significant exception" made for this topic? Ike needed a job. :D

[Chronos]

What's the standard for "political", here, Polerius? Looking at your list, ten of your "Great Debates" threads look awfully political to me. Opposition to gay marriage? It's the issue that swung the latest election. Voting tendancies among Jews? You can't get much more political than voting. Social Conservatism? That's a political philosophy, isn't it? I'm not seeing the distinction, here.

By the way, in case anyone doubts samclem's reason why we created Cafe Society, know this: The creation of the forum was delayed by two months because the moderators couldn't think of a good name for it.

[Polerius]

What's the standard for "political", here, Polerius? Looking at your list, ten of your "Great Debates" threads look awfully political to me. Opposition to gay marriage? It's the issue that swung the latest election. Voting tendancies among Jews? You can't get much more political than voting. Social Conservatism? That's a political philosophy, isn't it? I'm not seeing the distinction, here.
The general guideline I was thinking is if something is about short-term and/or local politics, it goes in PD (because it's not a "great debate"), otherwise, it goes in GD.

The examples I gave above show how I think it would work:

A general thread about whether gun control is beneficial should go into GD.
A thread about the expiration of a gun law should go into PD.

A thread about the effects of abortion on society should go into GD.
A thread about a senator who just voted against some abortion-related law should go into PD.

A thread about whether society should recognize gay marriage should go into GD.
A thread discussing the fact that several states passed an anti-gay-marriage ban should go into PD.

All the ranting and observations about the latest election should go into PD.

[Excalibre]

The general guideline I was thinking is if something is about short-term and/or local politics, it goes in PD (because it's not a "great debate"), otherwise, it goes in GD.

The examples I gave above show how I think it would work:
If it does happen (which I guess isn't likely) I'd like to see the politics cleared out of the Pit as well; it's nice to get my fix of irrational rants about junk mail without irrational rants about politics. And people like debating stuff in the Pit anyhow . . .

[TubaDiva]

When we originally started we had two, count 'em, two forums: Comments on Cecil's Columns and General Questions. And it stayed that way for a long time because Ed said you could divide up the entire world that way.

I'm getting nostalgic for those times. :)

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

[Polycarp]

Ike needed a job. :D

Aren't you confusing the creation of Cafe Society with the 1952 elections, Sam? :)

[Frank]

If it does happen (which I guess isn't likely) I'd like to see the politics cleared out of the Pit as well; it's nice to get my fix of irrational rants about junk mail without irrational rants about politics. And people like debating stuff in the Pit anyhow . . .
Sometimes the debates are better in the Pit. I think we should have two forums:

The BBQ Pit
Threads not involving personal attacks


But maybe that's just me.

[Asylum]

What's the standard for "political", here, Polerius? Looking at your list, ten of your "Great Debates" threads look awfully political to me. Opposition to gay marriage? It's the issue that swung the latest election. Voting tendancies among Jews? You can't get much more political than voting. Social Conservatism? That's a political philosophy, isn't it? I'm not seeing the distinction, here.What does is matter if the standard generates 100% compliance or not? The complaint is that there are too many political threads in GD and a Political Debates forum would go a long way towards addressing that complaint. We could even save the mods some trouble and let the thread starter decide if their thread should go in GD or PD and then just leave it there regardless and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of political threads would still be cleared out of GD.

[C K Dexter Haven]

I thought I arready said, let's wait a few weeks to see if this problem goes away.

When a big smash movie installment like LORD OF THE RINGS came out, we had a flurry of threads in Cafe Society about various aspects. Big-news stories usually produce several threads. These things wear down a lot with time. The politics was unusually hot this year, let's see if it settles down after the election. If not, and if the GD moderators think this idea makes sense, it's easy enough to go with it.

After all, Politics is the Art of the Possible.

[MEBuckner]

Well, on the front page of GD (at least the way I have it set to display, which is pretty much the default I think), we have threads on epistemology, masturbation, bisexuality, methods of disposing of dead bodies (burial v. cremation), linguistics, the Cy Young award, homosexuality, lesbianism (geeze, do we need a separate "Sexual Orientation" forum?), the metric system, evolution, Christianity and free will, the Rapture, another one on evolution, Messianic prophecies and the authors of the Gospels, and at least one thread whose subject I can't make heads or tails of even after reading the OP. There are also a whole passel of threads about politics, broadly speaking, which aren't necessarily just about the recent elections; everything from debates about specific pieces of legislation to discussions of the voting patterns of different ethnic or religious groups or ideological blocs to abstract questions about law and government. The Middle East, a perennial favorite, seems to be making a strong comeback; so is the gay marriage issue. Of course either of those last two could drag in comments about U.S. Presidential politics; and there are still a number of threads more or less directly about the 2004 elections.

So, all in all I think things are returning to normal.

[C K Dexter Haven]

However, there are NO threads about the election of 1988... so, take heart, all things fade into the past with time.

[Gaudere]

So, all in all I think things are returning to normal.Thank the IPU (pbuh).

[Troy McClure SF]

However, there are NO threads about the election of 1988... so, take heart, all things fade into the past with time.

Must... resist... "Start New Thread" button...