Moral/Ethical Question re Elementary School Child

[ShibbOleth]

Background: I've got two children, one almost nine and in third grade, the other is six and in first. We've relocated this summer from Ohio to Florida to be closer to family. My daughter was very happy in her life in Ohio, had a lot of friends, got along with most everyone, was part of a circle of friends that had gone to school and played soccer together since kindergarten. Ms. A was not happy in moving away from this environment and was not shy about letting me know it (although not until after we had already moved, which she was initially excited about). We initially lived in a rental apartment in one county and the kids started the school year at one school. Then we bought a home in another county and they had to shift to a second school. So not only did they come into a new school but they started a couple of months into the school year. Among young girls alliances have already been formed and it can apparently be difficult to break into established circles (as opposed to young boys: punch someone in the arm, show the fresh scabs, talk about Yu-Gi-Oh and you're in).

So the class is apparently reigned over by one girl, we'll call her L. L is apparently a petty tyrant who establishes who is in and who is out. She browbeats the other girls into submission. This would be bad enough but L is also in the gifted program with my daughter so it's continuous, all day. Add to that trying to adjust to new, seemingly foreign routines and practices, and my daughter is more than a bit unhappy, bordering on depressed.

I've always raised my kids to be nice and inclusive. It doesn't always come naturally, but generally they do a very good job of this. On the other hand I don't necessarily want them to be pushovers to pint-sized Napoleons. And I know some nice psy-ops that could essentially crush the alpha-female and reorder the pack.

Question: Is it unethical to teach my daughter quasi-Machivellian tactics to upset the natural order of the young herd? Is it immoral to start a rebellion that crushes the spirit of a young bully*?

Addendum: Any other, less invidious ideas for helping my daughter?

*In psychological, not physical terms.

[GorillaMan]

Talk to the teacher of the class. It's possible that they're stupid enough to not notice the systematic bullying (that's what it is), or it's possible they care little enough to just ignore it. Either way, they're not doing their job properly.

On the other hand, kids change very quickly at that age, and it's possible that the problem will disappear by itself before any intervention has an effect. But that's not a chance you want to take.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Sure, you could teach her, but the consequences wouldn't be pretty.


Simply put: you cannot forsee every situation that comes up in that cutthroat little world.

So when your "training (for lack of a better word)" doesn't fit a situation and there's a blow-up or a meltdown, and someone in authority asks, "Where did you learn to do such mean things?" and Miss A responds with, "From my daddy (I'm assuming you're a guy because I've never heard a woman use the word 'psy-ops')," then the shit is going to hit the fan a la Texas Cheerleader Moms, Michigan Hockey Dads, or Kansas City Father & Son Ump Beatdown Teams.


Kids are resilient and scrappy, and this will either get old to L or Miss A will stop caring and L will have lost her power.


Let it ride. Childhood is painful sometimes. But it goes away.

[don't ask]

My second son was bullied for a while at about age 8 or 9. Strangely he is a really big guy and at the time towered over his classmates, however he is very easy going and wouldn't hurt a fly. I couldn't work out what was going on and while I pondered things the whole matter came to an end.

His older brother had worked out that the kids who were picking on his brother were doing so at the behest of the leader of their gang. So he told his brother that next time he was picked on he shouldn't even talk to his tormentors, he should just walk over to their leader and tell him that he would hold him responsible for anything that happened to him and he would pay a heavy price.

I sure I would have offered something more namby-pamby as advice and to be honest I was thrilled that one comeupance ended the whole affair.

[ShibbOleth]

So when your "training (for lack of a better word)" doesn't fit a situation and there's a blow-up or a meltdown, and someone in authority asks, "Where did you learn to do such mean things?" and Miss A responds with, "From my daddy (I'm assuming you're a guy because I've never heard a woman use the word 'psy-ops')," then the shit is going to hit the fan a la Texas Cheerleader Moms, Michigan Hockey Dads, or Kansas City Father & Son Ump Beatdown Teams.

I'm probably not quite as evil as you assume. :)

What I was considering teaching her: slowly, and discretely start pointing out to the other little girls how bitchy L is. Build up resentment in the ranks. Make a point of inviting everyone but L to parties. Turn her into a pariah. Now, that is certainly cruel, IMO, but it's not exactly the sort of thing that you're referring to, and it's certainly not physical or like taking out a hit on the competition. It is very calculating, and I'm ambivalent about teaching her to do things like that, since it's not her natural disposition.

[AHunter3]

Teach her the tactics but let her know your misgivings about using them. Let her decide if and when to deploy them. She may find comfort simply in knowing there are things she could do if she chose to respond on that level.

[GorillaMan]

What I was considering teaching her: slowly, and discretely start pointing out to the other little girls how bitchy L is. Build up resentment in the ranks. Make a point of inviting everyone but L to parties. Turn her into a pariah.
You're describing teaching your own kid to be a bully. Not a good way to go.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Someone has been watching "Mean Girls" too much!

I don't think it's a good idea at all. Encourage her to find her own friends, and when next year comes there'll be a new person to pick on.

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

You're describing teaching your own kid to be a bully. Not a good way to go.


I agree. Giving the girl a taste of her own medicine will just teach your daughter that what the girl was doing is fine - as long as your daughter is the one doing it. I think you have a good opportunity to teach your daughter how to turn the other cheek without being a wallflower, and to stand up for herself without cutting other people down to do it.

I second the "talk to the teachers" suggestion. Mainly, because there are two sides to every story, and 9 year old girls can definitely be dramatic. I'm not saying your daughter is wrong, or exaggerating, or being dishonest. I'm just saying her perception of the situation might not fit very well with the reality of it. Secondly, the teacher knows the Bully in question better than either you or your daughter, and may have ideas of how to deal with the issue in a healthy, non-painful way. Try to remember that the other little girl is only 9ish herself. At that age, they're rarely bitches because they choose to be, but because that's what they're taught.

[Ca3799]

Wow, the similarities between your story and our situation are uncanny except our pushy GT kid is a boy (and his mom), and my daughter is not the new kid. Also different is that I have many more problems with the mom of the other kid that I do with the kid himself.

Until recently, there were only two GT kids in my daughter's grade. Because of the way the school adresses the need of GT students, these two have been and will always be in classes together (at least in elem.). These two kids, although very different, like each other alot.

The other mom (let's call her Judy) is incredibly competitive and manipulative, and is a 'super-volunteer', so she's always in the classroom 'fixing' things. She is teaching her son to do this, too. This concerns me somewhat because my daughter is shy and laid back. I have no doubt that the other mom uses my daughter's personality qualities to undermine my daughter and advance her son at every opportunity. I'm a school volunteer too, but I don't do it to micromanage my children's day.

An example: A third, non-GT, mom told me that Judy told her that my daughter wasn't accepted to GT on the first test so I had the school test her again and that she passed on the second try. This is not true, but why would she say that and who cares? I didn't confront Judy about this irritation because the kids are friends and I have to deal with her for a couple more years.

Another example: Judy told my daughter that her son was going to get the most points in a reading contest, so she didn't need to try all that hard to win. She then got an list of all the qualified books and helped her son take the tests. My daughter dropped out of the contest, saying she just wasn't interested. I don't mind that if it is true as I know she can and does read well and often, and I want her achievements to be hers and not mine, but I don't appreciate this highly competitive mother manipulating my third grader.

Recently a third GT kid moved to our school. My daughter and Judy's son told me about the new kid and Judy's son said "But we don't like him!". I gave them both a talk about including the new kid and why they should. I hope they took it to heart.

I'm hoping to deal with this artificial GT competition in several ways- one, knowing that the experienced teachers have probably dealt with a similar situation before and can handle it.

Two, by making sure I have direct access to the teachers and program information myself without having to go through the meddlesome Judy. I have learned over the last three years that she only provides information to me that helps her or her son. Frequently, when I'm talking to one of the teachers, I can see Judy in my peripheral vision eavesdropping. Now I prefer to email the teachers.

Third, I am trying to help my daughter develop the skills she needs to navigate these issues herself. I have used "Social Skills Activities for Special Children" by Mannix (which is good for non-special children, too) as a resource and also the various "GT Survival" type books marketed to GT kids, but most importantly, I make time to talk with her about her days, achievements, assignments, friends, and problems.

I must say, though, that the politics and manipulations have caught me by surprise.

[Ca3799]

I forgot to add that my DH thinks that my child will realize soon enough that these are not people that she likes or wants to spend time with and the problem will solve itself at that time.

[StGermain]

At her age, it's fine to tell her that she doesn't have to like everybody; and that, no matter how hard she tries, not eveyone is going to like/be nice to her. There are probably other kids that aren't in L's clique. Tell your daughter to see if she can make friends with them. I'd also point out that if that's the way they treat other kids, she probably doesn't want to hang out with them anyway.

Good luck. Social ostracism is hard at any age, but I think kids have it worse, because they can't readily seek out new groups to interact with. Hey - that gives me an idea. Is there an extra-curricular activity that she might enjoy the the mean kid doesn't do? Something like soccer or gymnastics or horseback riding lessons will give her a different group of kids to connect with.

StG

[ioioio]

ShibbOleth, You sound like a great parent. A lot of parents have no idea what's going on with their child at school socially, and a lot of kids would not be willing to confide their fears and failures to a parent. Good for you, for having such a good relationship with your daughter.

It's probably wrong to teach your kid that it's okay for her to be mean just because someone else is mean. On the other hand, I really really really want for your daughter to have a party and to invite everyone except that snotty little bitch L. Surely it wouldn't be so very wrong to let L know what it feels like just once. (I seem to have some unresolved issues from childhood.)

[Ghanima]

I'd say wait it out and be as honest with your child as you can.

When I was in high school I had a teacher and we hated each other. It got worse and worse until my dad sat me down and said: Look, you are way smarter than she is and that's why she hates you. But she holds the power. So BE smarter than she is and realize that you need her to move on and get out of this school. When you leave, she'll still be here. If you "kiss her ass" then she will do what you want, which is pass you and YOU will have won."

This was probably the greatest advice my father has ever given me.

You probably don't have any great platitudes to pass on to your daughter, but trying to help her see the truth of the situation will give her tremendous help at the very least emotionally and also give her tremendous respect for you.

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

When I was in high school I had a teacher and we hated each other. It got worse and worse until my dad sat me down and said: Look, you are way smarter than she is and that's why she hates you. But she holds the power. So BE smarter than she is and realize that you need her to move on and get out of this school. When you leave, she'll still be here. If you "kiss her ass" then she will do what you want, which is pass you and YOU will have won."



Am I understanding you correctly? Your dad told you to kowtow to some evil bully's wishes just to get her out of your hair? If so, with all due respect (honestly), I firmly disagree. People doing that is exactly what gives these bullies power.

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

Am I understanding you correctly? Your dad told you to kowtow to some evil bully's wishes just to get her out of your hair? If so, with all due respect (honestly), I firmly disagree. People doing that is exactly what gives these bullies power.


:smack: Missed the word teacher. That changes things, slightly. I'd probably have done the same, even though I would have hated every second of it.

[Ghanima]

You'd think I would have hated it, but just knowing that I was going to get what I needed, to feel that I was somehow manipulating her, made me feel so much better about the whole situation it was unbelievable. Of course now I know I didn't manipulate her into doing her job, but my dad showed me part of the thought process that we all have to use in order to deal with problems like this. Weighing truth and consequences against desire and making a decision about what is the best thing to do.

The power of knowing the truth about this girl (that she is a bully, albeit a girly bully, and specifically HOW and WHY she is a bully) could make the OP's daughter feel much better about her situation. Which could go a long way in solving the problem.

[Cat Whisperer]

You could also point out to your daughter that people who hurt other people are often hurting themselves. In other words, if L liked herself, she wouldn't feel the need to hurt other kids. Rather than teaching your daughter how to hurt L, it might work even better to teach your daughter compassion for people who don't seem to deserve it.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

You'd think I would have hated it, but just knowing that I was going to get what I needed, to feel that I was somehow manipulating her, made me feel so much better about the whole situation it was unbelievable. Of course now I know I didn't manipulate her into doing her job, but my dad showed me part of the thought process that we all have to use in order to deal with problems like this. Weighing truth and consequences against desire and making a decision about what is the best thing to do.

Heh. My dad gave me similar advice, but gave it just differently enough that it tanked.

Instead of telling me to manipulate the hell out of the stupid, control-freak teacher that was making my life miserable, he told me, "You've got to pick your battles, and this one isn't worth it."

To a stubborn, hardheaded 16-year-old, there's no such thing as a battle that's not worth it. Telling me that I had to willingly surrender a fight to a small-minded, hateful, stupid opponent just didn't work.

Had he given the advice your dad gave--if he'd said, "Here's how you lead her around by the nose, and make her think she's in control"--I would've been a lot likelier to take the advice, and would've had a much more pleasant year.

Good to know, for my own future fathering days!

Daniel

[CrazyCatLady]

Are you actually considering telling your child to hang out with people who are mean to her (I know, I know, it's all L's fault, but she's not ostracizing your daughter all by herself), suck up to them, invite them to parties, etc., just to topple L? That sounds like a bad idea on soooo many levels. As others have said, that's just teaching her that manipulating and bullying people is okay, as long as she's the one doing it. The more time she spends with the toadies and lets them be mean to her, the more unhappy she's going to be. Also, teaching her that, in essence, you can bludgeon people into liking you, and that such friendships are worth having, isn't going to serve her all that well in her later life, especially once her social world expands to include guys. And finally, it stands a huge chance of backfiring and making her situation worse.

Sure, we like to think that she could make these comments about how mean L is, and the other girls would keep it to themselves and quietly mull the situation over. With a clique of girls, especially ones that age, it's more likely that their coattails won't touch their asses before they're over there telling L that your daughter is talking shit about her. Then things will really get ugly.

[Shayna]

Hey - that gives me an idea. Is there an extra-curricular activity that she might enjoy the the mean kid doesn't do? Something like soccer or gymnastics or horseback riding lessons will give her a different group of kids to connect with.
That's exactly what I was going to suggest. Take her focus away from the one clique, get her meeting other people, and at the same time give her something fun to pursue. And like you suggested, it doesn't have to be school-related extracurricular activities -- there are all kinds of outside things she could do. Look into whether there's a church youth group she could participate in, or join the local YMCA (http://www.tampaymca.org/).

My favorite motto: The best "revenge" is a life well-lived.

[Bad News Baboon]

Here is my big disclaimer:

I haven't actually read these books...

but I hear they are insightful for parents of girls to read:

Queen Bees and Wannabes: Helping Your Daughter Survive Cliques, Gossip, Boyfriends, and Other Realities of Adolescence by Rosalind Wiseman


Odd Girl Speaks Out: Girls Write about Bullies, Cliques, Popularity, and Jealousy by Rachel Simmons


Perhaps they might be helpful in your situation.

[amarinth]

What I was considering teaching her: slowly, and discretely start pointing out to the other little girls how bitchy L is. Build up resentment in the ranks. Make a point of inviting everyone but L to parties. Turn her into a pariah. Now, that is certainly cruel, IMO, but it's not exactly the sort of thing that you're referring to, and it's certainly not physical or like taking out a hit on the competition. It is very calculating, and I'm ambivalent about teaching her to do things like that, since it's not her natural disposition.I think you flat out underestimate the sheer ruthlessness and potential evilness of 3rd grade girls.

Because along with the fact that it would be teaching your daughter lessons that you may not want to teach her (about inclusiveness, niceness to all, manipulating people, bullying, etc.) it just isn't going to work. It's a lovely theory, but in practice, especially with a school population that doesn't change very much year to year, it'll just fail. And your daughter will be worse off than she was before, as L will have the "and she's mean" ammunition along with everything else that she's already using to ostracize your daughter.

[VarlosZ]

Unlike most people here, I don't think that educating your daughter in the ways of manipulation would necessarily be a Very Bad Thing for her. It's a useful skill, and one that doesn't preclude being an honest, decent person as well.

However, like amarinth, I fear the chance of success would be slim to none. Children, however bright and empathic, just don't have the feel for personalities and situations necessary to twist people's thinking in the manner you suggest. When she gets to 7th or 8th grade, maybe it'll be a different story.

[ratatoskK]

A similar thing happened to me when I was that age. You should definitely talk with the teacher and make it clear that this bullying is hurting your daughter.

As an aside, my son's school (for the learning disabled) has a "no teasing" policy. It's an important part of the school rules which all the students are aware of, and there are consequences if anyone does any teasing. I think all schools should have this.

[ShibbOleth]

Thanks, you've all made some very good contributions here. I'm going to try and address some of the things you've said/asked/implied:


Talk to the teacher: I've begun this process via email and asked her to assign a mentor. Purpose is to give her an ally that can help her with learning the day-to-day routinte. It's not entirely clear that this has been done. I don't know her teacher that well, but have a vaguely bad feeling there. Could be nothing. Anyway, not all teachers are skilled at sorting out interpersonal problems between classmates, IME. Some just don't see it as part of their job, and even if they do they might not have the time to a) notice and b) resolve all possible conflicts. Also I'm not wild about their classroom setting, which is a large class mixed with second and third graders. They split out for parts of the day and work together for parts of the day. The idea is that the older kids help the younger kids. Nice theory, in practice, with fifty kids, I imagine chaos.
Teaching her this is teaching her to be a bully: there is that possibility, I guess, but I really don't think she has it in her nature. The crushing L part was probably more evil fantasy then a real possiblity. In reality I'd envision more of her splitting off some of the girls from the bad seed. In a perfect TV sitcom world the bad seed would see the error of her ways and come back with her tail between her legs. Not terribly likely. More realistic is that she might be able to convince a couple of girls that L is mean and not worth their time, and then at least you have a splinter resistance group. This can be done without being cruel about it, although it does open that possibility.
Exaggeration: This is a distrinct possibility. She does tend to blow things a bit out of proportions and get her feelings hurt easily. I try to point this out to her when it happens, but the net of it is that how she perceives these things is real to her and is making her miserable. To that end we have some work to do in her coping behaviours. That's a separate, slow and ongoing task. The good news is this characteristic also makes her very empathetic to others situations, and that is mostly good. Last night I talked with her about why these girls may be behaving the way they do. She actually gets this, which is very good for her age.
Gifted: I hadn't really been thinking about it from this perspective, so I'm glad you related your own experience, Ca3799. I had no idea it could be so competitive and aggressive, and I think this is part of what is surprised Ms. A as well. In Ohio this was very supportive and they were very friendly to one another, by all reports. So this is where she expects to find her new circle of friends and it's jarring when they instead belittle her. Last night we talked about how sometimes smart girls do some stuff that shows that they are not so nice and that indicates that they are not always so smart about how to deal with others. Apparently there are lots of snide little digs thrown across when the gifted teacher is not paying attention. I ask her everyday about her day and what the best and worst parts were. She said she was having a good day until M made fun of her, and then X kicked in with something mean as well. She said she thought M was her friend and had never said anything like that before.
New activities: she's always been in soccer. She is not the most gifted soccer player, but she is extremely coachable and uses her brain to help make her competitive. The main problem with this is that the soccer team she is on is still in her old area and it is a bit of haul to get over there. The good news is that last night she was invited to fill an open spot on one of the "competitive" teams. The bad news is I'm not sure we want to get into more practices every week. Also I don't know what the financial commitment is and money is a bit tight right now. We're going to check it out but have told her we may not be able to do that. But she has always wanted to be on a club team and at least it lets her know she can make it if she tries very hard. As for church, we're not churchgoers, so that one's not much of an option without a huge shift in family lifestyle. We are looking to get out to the temple near us sometime, though. The YMCA experiment this summer was a disaster. I'm not sure it's good to get into here. Let's just say there was some racism, poor supervision, unsanitary conditions and physical violence. The YMCA near where we are now seems to be better, but we'll take that slow since both kids are now Y-averse.
Why kids hurt others?: Good point there, Featherlou. Since she's very adept at grasping interpersonal relations, I think she'll be able to understand this intellectually. It won't stop her feelings from being hurt, but at least she'll understand some of the motivation, which will help in the long run.
Hang out with people who are mean...: I'm not sure you understand how school works. These are not grown ups. I think that there are at best a handful of bad ones and a few sheep and plenty who are following the "lie low" advice given here. I don't think that every single kid in the class is mean or irredeemable. At least I certainly hope not. It's been a long time since I was 8 years old and I have never been a girl, so maybe I am missing something and that's part of why I solicited advice here. And she's going to have to spend time with them whether she likes it or not, unless we change schools or they transfer. It's pretty much required that she attend school. I agree that bullying is the wrong way to go.
Book recos: Thanks, BNB, I'll check those out. Any others?

[CrazyCatLady]

No, Shib, I know exactly how school works. My mom's been teaching elementary school for 30+ years, so I've been watching this shit go down for pretty much all my life. Besides, twenty years ago, I pretty much was your daughter. Changed schools a few months into third grade, gifted and talented program, class ruled by a clique of petty bitches who belittled me whenever possible for no readily apparent reason and encouraged others to do the same, and a load of toadies all too willing to play along to avoid becoming targets themselves.

Yes, I had to spend time with these people who treated me like crap, just like I now have to spend time with coworkers I don't like. But you know what? I didn't have to like the assholes then, and I don't have to like them now. I don't have to associate with them beyond what school or work requires. And I most certainly don't have to demean myself trying to make them like me. It is demeaning, you know, throwing yourself at people who have made it quite clear they don't want you. It tells you two things: you are so inherently unlikeable as you are that no one will ever like you unless you go through this song and dance, and that you can bludgeon people into liking you. I don't think those are the lessons you want your daughter to learn. The best advice my mother ever gave me was to ask me what, exactly, I thought the friendship of someone who had to be bribed and bludgeoned into liking me was worth. The answer? Not much. That's when the petty horseshit starting just rolling off my back.

Besides, what you're proposing typically just doesn't work with girls this age. Like you said, they're not adults. They're not going to stand up to L because your daughter has convinced them that she's a bully, because that's just painting a target on their own chests. Especially not the ones who are just going along with the crowd. The weaker and more easily led someone is, the more they're going to resist standing out. It's just the way that dynamic works. Anyone who sides with the target becomes a target. Those who report the target trying to stir dissention in the ranks, however, earn an exemption from target status, because the ringleader focuses even more on the original target.