Bin Laden's Achilles Heel

[Jinx]

I know this question presumes Bin Laden has a brain, but here goes: Do the terrorists who support Bin Laden (and such rich, Anti-Western Arabs) realize that a collapse of Western society would mean their precious oil supply would be about as valuable as camel dung?

That turban-headed dunce should realize his fortune comes from oil, and without it, he and his kin would be pounding sand. Does he and his kin have dung for brains, or what?

Along these lines, if the Saudis had any balls, they'd come forward and a declare a holy war on any brother who threatens the demand for their black gold. If the attack on the WTC did damage Western economics, as allegedly Laden believed, he'll be worthless in spirit AND on paper!

I guess he's waiting for Allah to come and personally tell him this, huh? :dubious:

[tagos]

I know this question presumes Bin Laden has a brain, but here goes: Do the terrorists who support Bin Laden (and such rich, Anti-Western Arabs) realize that a collapse of Western society would mean their precious oil supply would be about as valuable as camel dung?

That turban-headed dunce should realize his fortune comes from oil, and without it, he and his kin would be pounding sand. Does he and his kin have dung for brains, or what?

Along these lines, if the Saudis had any balls, they'd come forward and a declare a holy war on any brother who threatens the demand for their black gold. If the attack on the WTC did damage Western economics, as allegedly Laden believed, he'll be worthless in spirit AND on paper!

I guess he's waiting for Allah to come and personally tell him this, huh? :dubious:

I expect the turban headed dunces realise there will always be a huge demand for the product. I may be wrong but I think non democratic countries have been known to contain the odd factory or car. China springs to mind.

[Mehitabel]

FWIW, bin Laden's estranged family made (and are making, although they cut him off long ago) their fortune from construction.

And I agree, annoying as it is to contemplate there are always nations who won't care where the oil is coming from as long as it comes.

[SentientMeat]

I think you are positing a vastly overblown connection between one (formerly) wealthy psychopath from a Saudi family whose fortune was in construction, who knew (and perhaps funded) someone who convinced some foreign Taleban fanatics to hijack some planes, with Islamic terrorists and governments worldwide.

Binladen has had his 9/11 hollywood blockbuster, and succeeded in provoking a "West versus Islam" war. If he is still alive, I think he will care not one jot about his own poverty or the price of a barrel of Brent crude.

[Jinx]

I expect the turban headed dunces realise there will always be a huge demand for the product. I may be wrong but I think non democratic countries have been known to contain the odd factory or car. China springs to mind.

No matter what country you pick, you are descibing a society functioning in a Western way. India and China may be up and coming, but guess what? It's all about the mighty dollar. And, the global economy is sure to fail if Bin Laden had knocked us out of the picture due to our investments and debt. As a simple example, the Boston Tea Party came at quite a price to British investors.

So, if there are no wheels to grease, then the Middle East can go back to being tents in a wasteland. And, I'll tell ya this, even if we all went down together, pre-industrial America did just fine, thank you very much. Whereas the Arab world would just be a bunch of camel riding tent sitters.

I may be stereotyping, but they really need a good ZAP between the eyes. America's mistake was making the Arabs think they're so important...and the American businessmen that make sure we'll NEVER have an alternate fuel source. Believe me, it's out there, but the mighty dollar lines the pockets of those with the means to squelch it. :mad:
- Jinx

[tagos]

No matter what country you pick, you are descibing a society functioning in a Western way. India and China may be up and coming, but guess what? It's all about the mighty dollar. And, the global economy is sure to fail if Bin Laden had knocked us out of the picture due to our investments and debt. As a simple example, the Boston Tea Party came at quite a price to British investors.

So, if there are no wheels to grease, then the Middle East can go back to being tents in a wasteland. And, I'll tell ya this, even if we all went down together, pre-industrial America did just fine, thank you very much. Whereas the Arab world would just be a bunch of camel riding tent sitters.

I may be stereotyping, but they really need a good ZAP between the eyes. America's mistake was making the Arabs think they're so important...and the American businessmen that make sure we'll NEVER have an alternate fuel source. Believe me, it's out there, but the mighty dollar lines the pockets of those with the means to squelch it. :mad:
- Jinx

I just think you're hopelessly confusing industrialisation with western society. If the USA and the dollar along with it were scooped up by the Borg tomorrow the world would go on, economics would go on and energy get used.

[Jinx]

If he is still alive, I think he will care not one jot about his own poverty or the price of a barrel of Brent crude.

That just shows how short-sighted the Islamic world is...to follow a man that will make sure the Islamic world remains primitive forever. You know, love or hate Israel, at least the Jews HAVE made substantial contributions to this world AND they've always worked to better themselves. I'd like to hear what Islamic values and traditions have given this world. - Jinx

[tagos]

That just shows how short-sighted the Islamic world is...to follow a man that will make sure the Islamic world remains primitive forever.

Jeez - stereotyping much? Cite for entire Islamic world following OBL please, this not being The Pit and all that.

[SentientMeat]

That just shows how short-sighted the Islamic world isDoes your categorisation of the Islamic world as "following" Binladen show how ignorant the entire Western world is?

[Jinx]

I just think you're hopelessly confusing industrialisation with western society. If the USA and the dollar along with it were scooped up by the Borg tomorrow the world would go on, economics would go on and energy get used.

There are a few things you're not considering. Back in 1988, when the Yen was so strong, economic articles were demonstrating how the Japanese couldn't afford to allow the US dollar to sink too low in value. A big piece of this is because Japan has to import almost everything. Their land is very poor in natural resources. In other words, if the dollar goes, so goes the world economy, my friend because the US is not just an intergal part, but the keystone!

In short, America isn't just a country sitting back watching the world go by. We have our economic fingers into everything going on in this world. Even up-and-coming India and China could not do it without the US businessman exploiting the people they've found. You didn't think India and China did it all by themselves, did you? Also, who will buy around to buy all the exports, if not the US? #2, right? Well, whoever you name as #2, their economy will be blown away by the collapse of #1 (US)...and so on like a domino effect.

Without America to make the economic world go round, the great rotor will stop and Atlas WILL shrug. He'll shrug and the world will roll right off his shoulders throwing the world for a loop! ...and I hate Ayn Rand, personally! But in this case, her philosophy is correct! - Jinx

[tagos]

There are a few things you're not considering. Back in 1988, when the Yen was so strong, economic articles were demonstrating how the Japanese couldn't afford to allow the US dollar to sink too low in value. A big piece of this is because Japan has to import almost everything. Their land is very poor in natural resources. In other words, if the dollar goes, so goes the world economy, my friend because the US is not just an intergal part, but the keystone!

In short, America isn't just a country sitting back watching the world go by. We have our economic fingers into everything going on in this world. Even up-and-coming India and China could not do it without the US businessman exploiting the people they've found. You didn't think India and China did it all by themselves, did you? Also, who will buy around to buy all the exports, if not the US? #2, right? Well, whoever you name as #2, their economy will be blown away by the collapse of #1 (US)...and so on like a domino effect.

Without America to make the economic world go round, the great rotor will stop and Atlas WILL shrug. He'll shrug and the world will roll right off his shoulders throwing the world for a loop! ...and I hate Ayn Rand, personally! But in this case, her philosophy is correct! - Jinx


Cite.

[Aldebaran]

No matter what country you pick, you are descibing a society functioning in a Western way.

So you think that non Western countries produce nor use anything that needs fossil energy?

India and China may be up and coming, but guess what? It's all about the mighty dollar.

It is more about other nations supporting and sustaining and propping up the now close-to-free-diving US dollar, actually.

And, the global economy is sure to fail if Bin Laden had knocked us out of the picture due to our investments and debt.

Actually, you don't need outsiders to knock yourselves out of the picture. You have already a good chance with GW Bush and his Famous Deficit. It can only continue to grow... Partially because of his Famous Wars. (And yes, your "example" was not only simple but also gives additional insight in your simplicity).

So, if there are no wheels to grease, then the Middle East can go back to being tents in a wasteland.

Time for me then to look for a few new tents and some more camels, and to root out my trees.

And, I'll tell ya this, even if we all went down together, pre-industrial America did just fine, thank you very much. [/quote)


I completely agree. The Native Americans did just fine before their lands were invaded while they were massacred.

[quote] Whereas the Arab world would just be a bunch of camel riding tent sitters.

We would? (I must go first of all rewrite some history books.... That can become a work of a lifetime.)

I may be stereotyping, but they really need a good ZAP between the eyes.

Someone please help me here: what is a ZAP? (Is this an other word for "pre-emptive invasion to Bring the tentliving camelrider US style "democracy"?)

America's mistake was making the Arabs think they're so important...

Sorry to bring the news that "Arabs" do not need the USA to think about anything.
One can't say the same about quite a few people in the USA who obviously need to repeat "USA 1! USA GOOD! USA FREE! USA HERO! USA RULES! endlessly in order to feel themselves important.

and the American businessmen that make sure we'll NEVER have an alternate fuel source.

That most certainly is not limited to the USA.

Believe me, it's out there, but the mighty dollar lines the pockets of those with the means to squelch it. :mad:
- Jinx

If it is "out there", then why don't you make investments yourself to get it produced? Especially since you feel this is of such importance to your battle with the Turban Wearing "Arabs" (You should also inform yourself a bit on the various Arab traditions regarding head covering).


Salaam. A

[Ethilrist]

If, as you suggest, Bin Laden's motivation in trying to drive America to its knees was personal profit, then, indeed, he is a turban-headed dunce, because as others have stated, his money came from construction, and not in America, and because he's probably not driving around in limousines these days.

If, on the other hand, he wanted to get the Arab world to go back to the way things were in the 18th-19th centuries, (a) he isn't alone, (b) according to his religion, he isn't necessarily wrong although he's going about it the wrong way, and (c) what does he care about the American or world economy?

[Jinx]

Does your categorisation of the Islamic world as "following" Binladen show how ignorant the entire Western world is?

I'm afraid one bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch, whether intentionally or not. It is just like the one bad kid that has to ruin everything for the class. The acts of Bin Laden, and such, will only serve to drag down the Islamic community as a whole.

I mean, did you ever once hear a public outcry that we shouldn't fight the Russians because not all Russians are bad? When we point our ICBMs at Russia, it ain't because of the deeds of the good, is it? So, would you say America is ignorant to say all of the former Soviet Union is just a bunch of Commies? From this perspective, I hope you can see how Islam will be dealt with by the powers that be, right or wrong. When war breaks out, they don't ask if you're a good egg or a bad egg, do they? If you're an egg, you're the enemy (if we're fighting the Eggs, that is.)

Now, to validate your argument (because I really do hate stereotyping), my above statements are EXACTLY WHY it is prudent for the Islamic world to come forward and DECLARE that they do not support the actions of this one BAD egg. And, they should be joining us and embracing this opportunity to route out terrorism. But, instead, they have been quite silent uttering token consulations back on 9/12/01. Actions speak louder than words, my friend. If the Islamic leaders want peace to protect their "good eggs", then they better start changing their ways and start ACTING like they want peace and value life!

I don't know...my Bible didn't need to tell me to do that...just like the Bible diesn't tell me it'd be a good idea to inhale oxygen eery once in a while. ;)
- Jinx

[Aldebaran]

That just shows how short-sighted the Islamic world is...to follow a man that will make sure the Islamic world remains primitive forever. You know, love or hate Israel, at least the Jews HAVE made substantial contributions to this world AND they've always worked to better themselves. I'd like to hear what Islamic values and traditions have given this world. - Jinx


Oh no, not this again.
Sure, everybody "follows OBL" which makes that every Muslims is right now plotting to exterminate you. Do you actually have any idea how many Muslims inhabit this globe?

We are also all "primitive". I am even that primitive that I have no clue what you try to achieve with your primitive rant.

We also have no clue about Jewish contribution to the world's society. That is why Jewish (and Christian) communities were triving inside the Islamic world for as long as it exists.

As for your wish to hear about what the Muslim world contributed to the world... So sorry that I dont list it. That would keep me buzy for a very long time while in fact at this moment I don't see how you are even worth one second of it.
Instead of spending my time on you, let me give you and advise: There are institutions called "library where there are items called "books" available. You can find all you need as information on the issue there, inless you happen to live in some dark wood or in some desert, cut off from the rest of the world (or in space, which seems to me more of an option at this point).

Salaam. A

[tagos]

I mean, did you ever once hear a public outcry that we shouldn't fight the Russians because not all Russians are bad? When we point our ICBMs at Russia, it ain't because of the deeds of the good, is it? So, would you say America is ignorant to say all of the former Soviet Union is just a bunch of Commies?

Well, yes, obviously only an extremely ignorant, bigoted fool would make such a statement.

[Jinx]

...what does he care about the American or world economy?

a) If Bin Laden thought this way, then he'd be content staying where he is and not dreaming up ways to attack the US...even before 9/11.

b) Western society threatens his way of life. What is the heartbeat of Western society? Well, the bloodline is the mighty dollar. Cut off the bloodline, and he thinks that will be the undoing of Western society.

c) If he didn't care, he wouldn't have thought so much to send the very best (to America on 9/11).

[SentientMeat]

I'm afraid one bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch, whether intentionally or not. Well, thanks for representing me and the rest of the Western world as stereotyping hypocrites who show absolutely no understanding of the Islamic world nor any desire to develop any.

I hereby declare that I do not suuport the actions of Jinx in this thread.

[Ethilrist]

Okay, going back to the OP:
Do the terrorists who support Bin Laden ... realize that a collapse of Western society would mean their precious oil supply would be about as valuable as camel dung?
The purpose of terrorism is to prove to a people that their government is powerless to protect them. They're not concerned with the value of oil.

[Grey]

I mean, did you ever once hear a public outcry that we shouldn't fight the Russians because not all Russians are bad? When we point our ICBMs at Russia, it ain't because of the deeds of the good, is it? So, would you say America is ignorant to say all of the former Soviet Union is just a bunch of Commies? From this perspective, I hope you can see how Islam will be dealt with by the powers that be, right or wrong. When war breaks out, they don't ask if you're a good egg or a bad egg, do they? If you're an egg, you're the enemy (if we're fighting the Eggs, that is.)Well in that case there was actually a functioning government specifically at odds with the US/West. Confrontation was between nation states not individuals. How exactly does a single man leading an amorphous group not represented to any great degree by the actual functioning governments within the Islamic world become equivalent to the USSR in your mind?

[Aldebaran]

Well, thanks for representing me and the rest of the Western world as stereotyping hypocrites who show absolutely no understanding of the Islamic world nor any desire to develop any.

I hereby declare that I do not suuport the actions of Jinx in this thread.

I don't think anyone posting on this message board (with a few exceptions confirming the rule) needs to make a post like you just made, to make it clear that they do not "support" the strange views of this member.


Salaam. A

[SentientMeat]

I don't think anyone posting on this message board (with a few exceptions confirming the rule) needs to make a post like you just made, to make it clear that they do not "support" the strange views of this member. And nor do we require you to explicitly declare that you do not support Binladen, friend. Salaam aleikum.

[Aldebaran]

By reading his "EGG" rants, I can't help but picturing an old Laurel & Hardy style scene with the USA as the fat guy and the pooooooor Arabs as the skinny one.

Salaam. A

[Aldebaran]

And nor do we require you to explicitly declare that you do not support Binladen, friend. Salaam aleikum.

As an other member came to reveal in an other thread, you should be warned that I am only here for recruting potential terrorists adhering the Islamic religion.
As such undercover recruter I now feel compelled to tell you that I specifically target the SDMB because this board has the largest concentration of active Muslim members on the entire World Wide Web.

Salaam. A

[jjimm]

From everything I've read, Bin Laden doesn't care too much for money (except to fund his murderous schemes).So, if there are no wheels to grease, then the Middle East can go back to being tents in a wasteland.I think he'd like that. Bin Laden's messed-up version of Islam demands asceticism and austerity, not ostentation and prosperity.I may be stereotypingNo, really?

When you claim that "the Muslim world" is tarnished by Bin Laden, do you know exactly how many people, from how many countries, in what regions of the world, you're talking about? Or do you actually just mean "Arabs"? And do you realise that's precisely the lazy thinking that allows mad Jihadists to condemn "the Western world" based on the shitty things that some of our people have done.

[MEBuckner]

Moderator's Note: This is more of a rant than a debate, so I'm moving it to the Pit.

[Spavined Gelding]

The OP assumes that Osama and the boys seek the collapse of the West. I’m not at all sure that is true. Osama does not hate the United States because it is free (as some simple and simplistic leaders of the free world would have us think). Osama and the Boys hate the West because in is in the Middle East, and in the Near East. The ME and the NE is his sandbox and he doesn’t want Aramco hogging all the toy trucks. If the West indeed pulls out of the ME, if the ME restores a 15th Century strain of fundamental and isolationist Islam, there will still be a demand for Light Arab Crude. The plain fact is that the West and its petroleum powered economies need the ME. Osama can well figure that need is urgent enough that the precarious Arab economy will thrive on Western money no matter who is running the show, weather it is the House of Saud or Osama.

What may well be a bigger threat to the United States than any thing Osama ever conceived is the possibility that the Arab oil producing states will want to be paid in Euros instead of dollars. Then the invasion and occupation of Iraq starts to make sense in a 18th Century mercantile sort of way.

[Aldebaran]

What may well be a bigger threat to the United States than any thing Osama ever conceived is the possibility that the Arab oil producing states will want to be paid in Euros instead of dollars. Then the invasion and occupation of Iraq starts to make sense in a 18th Century mercantile sort of way.

There are indications that this was one of the factors behind the US rush to take over the Iraq oil industry at all costs.

Salaam. A

[Bryan Ekers]

I think he'd like that. Bin Laden's messed-up version of Islam demands asceticism and austerity, not ostentation and prosperity.

Exactly, with himself as a member of the ruling class. The Arab/Muslim cultures existed in more-or-less stable hierarchies for centuries (with only the occasional assassination to shake things up), long before the internal-combustion engine. The main threat to an Islamic theocracy (or any theocracy, for that matter) is freedom of communication. Western-style capitalism requires free movement of information to work most efficiently. Naturally, the two are in conflict. I suppose Bin Laden's ideal would be a Saudi Arabia as culturally isolated as North Korea, with the peasants kept ignorant and in line (for their own good, no doubt), himself in a position of power, and the only Western contact being the occasional luxury import for his own comfort and convenience. It's not really any more farfetched then Americans who want to restore their society to some idealized Leave it to Beaver model; relying on nostalagia to a past that never really existed.

I don't know that I'd call it an Achilles' Heel, though. Frankly, Jinx shows a rather astonishing and (in light of his other, similar threads) I suspect wilfull ignorance.

[Rashak Mani]

Along these lines, if the Saudis had any balls, they'd come forward and a declare a holy war on any brother who threatens the demand for their black gold.
Well since demand for the "black gold" is at an all time high due to demand and Iraq.... I guess Osama and Bush are their heros.

[jjimm]

the only Western contact being the occasional luxury import for his own comfort and convenience.I disagree with this. Yes, he would seek to be a leader, but unlike other tyrants and wannabe tyrants, I really don't think this is his style. He is a multi-millionaire who imposed on his very rich self a life of deprivation. There was a fascinating report - have looked for it online but can't find the archive - by a (London) Sunday Times reporter who met Bin Laden a few months before 9/11, and the lifestyle he was leading was sparse to say the least. Even in Afghanistan he could have lived like a king, but he chose not to. I'd say that's something of a strength, rather than a weakness.

[Gala Matrix Fire]

I'd like to hear what Islamic values and traditions have given this world. - Jinx

Astronomy. Algebra. Chemistry.

[Baldwin]

Originally Posted by Jinx
I'd like to hear what Islamic values and traditions have given this world. - Jinx

Posted by bluethree:
Astronomy. Algebra. Chemistry.
Not to mention most of our surviving ancient Greeks literature.

Posted by Jinx:
So, if there are no wheels to grease, then the Middle East can go back to being tents in a wasteland. And, I'll tell ya this, even if we all went down together, pre-industrial America did just fine, thank you very much.
Pre-industrial America didn't have 300 million people who are pretty darned used to having cars and electric power.

Whereas the Arab world would just be a bunch of camel riding tent sitters....
...because I really do hate stereotyping.

Right. Thanks.

And, as pointed out, Arab men do not commonly wear turbans. Perhaps you mean a shemagh.

[spingears]

Do the terrorists who support Bin Laden (and such rich, Anti-Western Arabs) realize that a collapse of Western society would mean their precious oil supply would be about as valuable as camel dung? YES. They don't give a camel's rear end either. Bin Laden et al are engaged in a winner take all attempt to overpower and subdue every human being on the face of the earth. It is more a theological, sociological, and societal struggle than political. Terrorism is merely a tool, a means to the end, than and end initself. Europe is being overrun already. Guess who may be next!

[clairobscur]

Whereas the Arab world would just be a bunch of camel riding tent sitters.

I may be stereotyping,



Don't worry. It's not stereotyping. It's just racism.

[Princhester]

I'm afraid one bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch, whether intentionally or not.

Timothy McVeigh.

Time to give yourself a good ZAP between the eyes.

[Mehitabel]

...well, you do know McVeigh was not a Christian, right? He was an agnostic and registered as such when he joined the Army (your religion is on your dogtags so they can bury your corpse properly). He was raised officially Catholic and had Last Rites in the Church to please his father, but he wasn't a Christian, even though most of the groups that he got his philosophy from are.

And clairobscur, in America most of us don't consider Arabs a race. They're Caucausians with skin often darker than Swedes or something but they're as 'white' as Dubya or Britney Spears.

[Sublight]

By reading his "EGG" rants, I can't help but picturing an old Laurel & Hardy style scene with the USA as the fat guy and the pooooooor Arabs as the skinny one.

BOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!......

"Now look what you made me do!"

[Princhester]

...well, you do know McVeigh was not a Christian, right? He was an agnostic and registered as such when he joined the Army (your religion is on your dogtags so they can bury your corpse properly). He was raised officially Catholic and had Last Rites in the Church to please his father, but he wasn't a Christian, even though most of the groups that he got his philosophy from are.

My, what fine distinctions we are capable of drawing when it suits us.

[Mehitabel]

Uh, what? Often I've seen Muslims, including on this board, counterclaim the fact that almost every terrorist act committed in recent decades has been committed by Muslims with the "fact" that Tim McVeigh was an American terrorist who was a Christian.

Only he wasn't, and if that was the road you were going down it was pertinent to speak up and set the record straight. If I misunderstood you, my apologies.

[Princhester]

Apology accepted but if you'd read the thread you could hardly have failed to see that Jinx was flailing the mega brush in all directions and so my McVeagh point was entirely appropriate.

[FinnAgain]

You are aware of the moors, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) right? Ya know, bunch of folks, conquered a whole lot of Europe? How about the fact that the entire numeral system we use is arabic? Maybe that the Romans themselves never did figure out that a 'zero point' could exist? How about medicine? How about the some of the only centers of learning during the Dark Ages? How about preserving copies of Plato, Aristotle, etc... that the West had lost?

Eh, I'm wasting my time.

[sinical brit]

Hey Jinx - you know i think youve got him there.

He must be well pissed that you have foiled his plan with your vast knowledge regarding the workings of the world and its many peoples.

spingears - what , presicely, is overrunning Europe, pray tell? Just so i know what to look out for.

Sin

[clairobscur]

And clairobscur, in America most of us don't consider Arabs a race. They're Caucausians with skin often darker than Swedes or something but they're as 'white' as Dubya or Britney Spears.


I'm not aware of an appropriate word that would be equivalent to "racism". Like in hateful and disparaging comments adressed at a group of people on the basis of them having a specific ethnic background (yes..you can also nitpick about "ethnic" if it makes you feel better). And "antisemitism" is already taken. But given the number of comments about arabs or muslims on this board that wouldn't past muster, and would result in a pile up and possibly a ban, if they were directed at blacks or Jews, we're in dire need of such an appropriate word. I'm really fed up reading all this crap getting a free pass.


Make that "antiarabism" or "islamophobia" if you like it better.



And since you like nitpicks, "caucasian" or "white" isn't a race, either.

[tagos]

Hey Jinx - you know i think youve got him there.

He must be well pissed that you have foiled his plan with your vast knowledge regarding the workings of the world and its many peoples.

spingears - what , presicely, is overrunning Europe, pray tell? Just so i know what to look out for.

Sin

Moronic racists as far as I can tell, although over-run isn't the right word. 'Infected' maybe.

[jjimm]

II'm really fed up reading all this crap getting a free pass.So am I (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=288636).

[Aldebaran]

...well, you do know McVeigh was not a Christian, right? He was an agnostic and registered as such when he joined the Army (your religion is on your dogtags so they can bury your corpse properly). He was raised officially Catholic and had Last Rites in the Church to please his father, but he wasn't a Christian, even though most of the groups that he got his philosophy from are.


So in short, he was raised a Christian, like many Muslims are raised Muslim, yet didn't follow the commands of the religion, just like many Muslims don't follow the commands of theirs.

And clairobscur, in America most of us don't consider Arabs a race. They're Caucausians with skin often darker than Swedes or something but they're as 'white' as Dubya or Britney Spears.

This is not the first time I see you posting this.
When it comes to talk about "race", it all depends on what definition you give the word.
In your definition Semetic is the same as Caucasian.
So you also claim that Jews are Caucasian. Then it is a pitty you didn't live at the time when Hitler got his strange ideas to root out the - in his view- non caucasian "untermenschen" (read Semites, read: For Hitler that meant "Jews").
You could have informed him that he was about to root out people of what he perceived as his own race. Think about it how many millions of lives you could have saved.

Berbers are mostly considered to be of Caucasian origin. I don't think there is consensus about this yet, but from what I read there are strong indications that they are indeed Caucasian. In any case: Many Berbers look a lot more "Caucasian" then any full blood Arab I have ever met.

For your information: Arabs are Semites.
In my view that is not the same as Caucasian, but although I am the son of a full blood Semetic father and a full blood Caucasian mother, I am not an expert in this matter. It never kept me occupied to make distinction between people by dividing them into "races".

Salaam. A

[sinical brit]

tagos " Moronic racists as far as I can tell ".

Oh, in that case i think springears is too late. Looks like you already have your fair share ( see - op )

Jjimm - thanks for starting that thread. Reasonable, rational and enlightening as always. Jinx, may i suggest you read it.

Sin

[Walker in Eternity]

Astronomy. Algebra. Chemistry.

Sorry to disagree but astronomy has been invented independently by a number of cultures over the centuries including but not limited to China, Egypt, Incas, Mayas and others. A lot pre-date Islam and those that do not are not linked to Islam.

Algebra was invented by the Arabs, but pre-dates Islam by three centuries or so.

I have no evidence to refute the chemistry statement.

I will try to come up with cites for the above.

[Walker in Eternity]

Algebra Cite: http://vmoc.museophile.com/algebra/section3_1.html

Astronomy (not a good link), also I missed out the greeks. http://www.vilspa.esa.es/astroweb/yp_history.html

[tagos]

Sorry to disagree but astronomy has been invented independently by a number of cultures over the centuries including but not limited to China, Egypt, Incas, Mayas and others. A lot pre-date Islam and those that do not are not linked to Islam.

Algebra was invented by the Arabs, but pre-dates Islam by three centuries or so.

I have no evidence to refute the chemistry statement.

I will try to come up with cites for the above.

You're missing the point - Islam built upon and was the conduit into Europe of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost and so played a huge formative role in the building of western society as we know it.

[tagos]

tagos " Moronic racists as far as I can tell ".

Oh, in that case i think springears is too late. Looks like you already have your fair share ( see - op )
Sin

Care to elaborate on this meaning free phrase?

[Walker in Eternity]

You're missing the point - Islam built upon and was the conduit into Europe of the ancient knowledge that otherwise would have been lost and so played a huge formative role in the building of western society as we know it.

Perhaps you are correct, but now it is the wahabbis (sp.?) et al that want to destroy all of this knowledge and live in the 7th Century.

I must apologise for the hijack as I think we are getting away from the original thread.

[SentientMeat]

Perhaps you are correct, but now it is the wahabbis (sp.?) et al that want to destroy all of this knowledge and live in the 7th Century.And the point of this thread is that Muslims are no more Wahabbists nor Binladen-followers than Christians are Young-Earth Creationists or McVeigh-followers, and that Islam gave us Avicenna and Averroes just as Christianity gave us St Augustine and William of Ockham.

[Walker in Eternity]

And the point of this thread is that Muslims are no more Wahabbists nor Binladen-followers than Christians are Young-Earth Creationists or McVeigh-followers, and that Islam gave us Avicenna and Averroes just as Christianity gave us St Augustine and William of Ockham.

Agreed, I was not attempting to generalise, perhaps I misunderstood the OP which was about OBL who it appears is a wahbbist or at least a supporter of their ideals. Iwas not saying that all Muslims agree with this point of view.

on the subject of Oil, IMHO OBL won't care about oil prices if he wins and gets a state that follows his interpretation of Islam.

[tagos]

Perhaps you are correct, but now it is the wahabbis (sp.?) et al that want to destroy all of this knowledge and live in the 7th Century.

I must apologise for the hijack as I think we are getting away from the original thread.

They don't want to destroy the knowledge AFAIK, (I'm willing to be corrected with a reputable cite though) they just don't like the morality. or lack of it in western societies. Just as they're not opposed to the technolofy - only the moral impact of uses of it.

[Aldebaran]

Perhaps you are correct, but now it is the wahabbis (sp.?) et al that want to destroy all of this knowledge and live in the 7th Century.

Short answer to (clearly by Western Media) formed Idea:
No, "the Wahhabi" don't want to "destroy" any knowledge or live in the 7the century.
They only want to implement their lunatic idea of Islam and its teachings on as much people as possible, they want to export this idea to as much places as they can reach and use it to brainwash as much Muslims with it as they can.
They can do this fairly unlimited because their guardian, the House of Saud, is adequately shielded by the Western (read: mainly US) Umbrella.
This Western (read: mainly US) Umbrella does not look at the Wahhabi doctrine as having a potential to be dangerous, does not see it as in violation with Human Rights (especially regarding the position of women) does not treat it as something that should have been marginalized instead of being supported, shielded, propped up, received help to grow from a lunatic murderous intolerant sect to the monster that it is now.

Salaam. A

[Walker in Eternity]

I stand corrected

[Mehitabel]

Sorry, clairosbcur, I sometimes forget to correct for language differences. I was taught in school that there are only three races: Caucausoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid, and that every human group fits into one or more of them (like Latinos, who often combine all three in their genes but are technicially an ethnic group, not a racial one). Causcasoids are the most numerous and widespread and their hair and skin colors and chararacteristics vary the most, from very light to very dark, so Arabs, Greenlanders, Finns, East Indians, Russians, etc. are all Caucausian.

Maybe this is obsolete (from the mid-70s) but I still find it jarring to see the word "race" applied to people who are the same biologically but just speak a different language or who have different religions. I know in Europe it may be different, though. But I was told very strictly NOT to regard Jews, for example, as a race at all. They can be black, white, Latino, or whatever. Maybe this was a political reaction to the Holocaust, because studies of the Holocaust were a very big deal in NYC public schools and they wanted to make sure we knew it.

[tagos]

Sorry, clairosbcur, I sometimes forget to correct for language differences. I was taught in school that there are only three races: Caucausoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid, and that every human group fits into one or more of them (like Latinos, who often combine all three in their genes but are technicially an ethnic group, not a racial one). Causcasoids are the most numerous and widespread and their hair and skin colors and chararacteristics vary the most, from very light to very dark, so Arabs, Greenlanders, Finns, East Indians, Russians, etc. are all Caucausian.

Maybe this is obsolete (from the mid-70s) but I still find it jarring to see the word "race" applied to people who are the same biologically but just speak a different language or who have different religions. I know in Europe it may be different, though. But I was told very strictly NOT to regard Jews, for example, as a race at all. They can be black, white, Latino, or whatever. Maybe this was a political reaction to the Holocaust, because studies of the Holocaust were a very big deal in NYC public schools and they wanted to make sure we knew it.

The concept of 'race' has come on a bit since the 70's (my education era too). Here's a good overview.

wiki on race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race)

[Mehitabel]

Thanks, tagos, great article. We were just moving beyond the Blumenbach five-race model when I got to school.

In everyday speech, race is often used to describe populations that are better defined as ethnic groups. This often leads to discrepancies between "scientific" views on race and popular usage to the term. For instance in many parts of the United States, categories such as Hispanic or Latino are used to define race in much the same way as terms such as white and black have been traditionally used, though Hispanics constitute a linguistic and cultural grouping that may come from a wide variety of backgrounds.

This is what I was told, pretty much.

In much of Europe groups such as Roma, Turks, and Arabs are commonly defined as racially distinct from "white" Europeans, though all of these groups are considered to be "Caucasian" in traditional physical anthropology.

"I did not know that." </Johnny Carson> That explains a bit about where

In biomedical research, the 2000 US census definition of race is often applied. This grouping recognizes five races: black or African American, white, Asian, native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, and American Indian or Alaska native. However, this definition is inconsistently applied between studies.

Yes, it gets tricky, and it must be strange for a Yank with southern Indian ancestry with straight black hair, black eyes, and skin darker than many of his "black" friends to check off 'white' instead of 'Asian', but that's politics for you. And then I've heard from Brits that 'Asian' does indeed mean people from the Indian subcontinent over there... :smack:

Again, thanks for the article. Lots to ,munch on.

[Mehitabel]

:smack: again, incomplete sentence there!

"I did not know that." </Johnny Carson> That explains a bit about where clairobscur is coming from again, especially if some Europeans (leaving aside Hitler and other discredited psychopaths, we've all moved beyond that) use 'race' for Caucausian ethnic groups.

[GaWd]

Mehitabel, Anyone from the indian subcontinent is an "asian", even in America. So Pakistanis, Indians, Bangaledeshians, Chinese, Etc. are all Asian. It's an idea in ethnicity that is becoming more widespread attention in teaching.

As for the OP-I'd vent my gourd on his ignorant ass, but I seem to be a little late to the party and he seems to have disappeared for the most part.

Sam

[rjung]

I know this question presumes Bin Laden has a brain
Considering that Osama has managed, for the last four years, to make the United States of America do exactly what he wanted us to do all along (withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia, provoke a war against the Middle East, grow anti-American sentiments and bolster his ranks, etc.), I'd say it's dangerous to underestimate the intelligence of the guy.

[FinnAgain]

I'm not aware of an appropriate word that would be equivalent to "racism". Like in hateful and disparaging comments adressed at a group of people on the basis of them having a specific ethnic background<snip> But given the number of comments about arabs or muslims on this board that wouldn't past muster, and would result in a pile up and possibly a ban, if they were directed at blacks or Jews, we're in dire need of such an appropriate word. I'm really fed up reading all this crap getting a free pass.
.

A-fucking-men.
This shit makes me sick.

[spingears]

Several posts asked for cites regarding information on Who invented algebra and When.

History of Algebra (http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~sxw8045/history.htm)

For the mathematicaly inclined check out the link at the bottom of the page.

The Arabs invented 'Algebra' in name only. IIRC one of their most signifigant contributions was the concept of "0" i.e. ZERO.