Poker player dies at table before the end of the hand... Where goes $$$?

[Leaper]

Here's something that happened as the opening scene of a CSI rerun that I happened to catch. I was curious what would happen if it occurred IRL.

Imagine five people at a high stakes NL Hold 'Em table at a major casino. There was a raise pre-flop, which all call. Then the flop is checked around. On the turn, the first player to act bets $2K. The next player (Player A) raises. There's a fold, then a reraise by Player B. The original bettor folds, and Player A moves all-in. Player B does an analysis of what he thinks his chances are, and is obviously going to call. But before he can officially do so, and push his chips in, he keels over dead.

Player B, BTW, would've won on the river, but obviously that's neither here nor there. What would happen to the pot? I can't imagine the rest of player B's stack going to Player A (as the character demanded in the episode), but what about Player B's original reraise? The rest of the pot? How would this be resolved?

[Standup Karmic]

He may well "obviously" be going to call, but I can't imagine a clearer indication of a fold.

[CynicalGabe]

Player B is not responding. Player B will be check/folded.

[AmbushBug]

Player B is not responding. Player B will be check/folded.
Oh? How about this:

Player B's stake passes into probate. The other players can wait for his designated heir to continue play, or since he's got 0 for a stake, consider him 'all-in' as of his last bet, and play accordingly.

:D

I wonder whether the WSOP, or ordinary casinos, have a 'house rule' for such a contingency? I'd think that a house rule would control.

[Leaper]

A related follow-up that occurred to me: suppose Player B had called, but died before the river card was revealed? On the CSI ep, by the time anyone bothered to look at either set of hole cards, or the river, Player A could've argued (rightly) that anyone could've marched up to the deck during the confusion and call for the police and monkeyed with the cards. How would that have been resolved?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

It depends.

Who shot him?

[jgroub]

There is a cute movie with a similar situation from 1966 with Jason Robards, called A Big Hand for the Little Lady. It's a Western and they're playing some form of "regular" poker - 5 cards, no river, turn, etc. The guy dies during the hand, and the players don't know what to do. The hand goes to his wife, but she doesn't have enough money to call. They aren't even too keen on letting a woman play. She ends up going to the bank to get a loan based on showing the cards to the bank manager. I forget what the hand was or the outcome.

[yabob]

There is a cute movie with a similar situation from 1966 with Jason Robards, called A Big Hand for the Little Lady. It's a Western and they're playing some form of "regular" poker - 5 cards, no river, turn, etc. The guy dies during the hand, and the players don't know what to do. The hand goes to his wife, but she doesn't have enough money to call. They aren't even too keen on letting a woman play. She ends up going to the bank to get a loan based on showing the cards to the bank manager. I forget what the hand was or the outcome.

The guy didn't really die. It was a con game to sting the high stakes poker players involved in the game. The traveling player (Henry Fonda), his "wife" and "child" (who really weren't), the banker who backed the wife's hand, and the town doctor who pronounced the guy dead were all in on it. The banker had reason to dislike the town bigshots who regularly had these games, and set the whole thing up. It's an entertaining movie.

[SenorBeef]

Just FYI, poker almost never (I say almost because I guess anyone can make a rule in their home games) ever ever works like it does in westerns (and I'm guessing it didn't then, either). You're not forced to sell your house or whatever to call a big bet, you're only liable up to the amount you have on the table. Otherwise, poker would just become silly... the richest guy at the table could win every hand simply by betting big.

Irritating movie convention.

[ftg]

In general, when there's a major foulup during a hand, such as the dealer dropping the deck on the ground, etc., the players get their chips back. (But if the foulup is caused by a player, the outcome is determined by who can draw their gun the fastest.)

Death of a player would seem to be an "outside act" that would cancel the hand.

[duality72]

Player B is not responding. Player B will be check/folded.

I think it depends. Surely the player hasn't used up all of his disconnection all-ins.

[Number]

This depends on the specific rules of the casino. Most have rulebooks similar to or based on Robert's Rules of Poker (http://www.homepokertourney.com/rules_roberts.htm). In this situation I believe the following rule applies:

13. In all no-limit and pot-limit games, the house has the right to place a maximum time limit for taking action on your hand. The clock may be put on someone by the dealer as directed by a floorperson, if a player requests it. If the clock is put on you when you are facing a bet, you will have one additional minute to act on your hand. You will have a ten-second warning, after which your hand is dead if you have not acted.

[Number]

Or this one:

6. If you are not present at the table when it is your turn to act on your hand, you forfeit your ante and your forced bet, if any. If you have not returned to the table in time to act, the hand will be killed when the betting reaches your seat. (In tournament play, the dealer is instructed to kill the hand of any absent player as soon as all the players have received their entire starting hands.)

[Crandolph]

Obviously this can be avoided by knowing when to hold 'em and knowing when to fold 'em, knowing when to walk away and knowing when to run.

[CaveMike]

Obviously this can be avoided by knowing when to hold 'em and knowing when to fold 'em, knowing when to walk away and knowing when to run.Sure, sounds easy enough, but where are you supposed to count your money?

[jgroub]

yabob, thanks for the info! I think I saw it years ago, on the late, late, late movie, and didn't stick around to see how it ended.

[BarnOwl]

Just FYI, poker almost never (I say almost because I guess anyone can make a rule in their home games) ever ever works like it does in westerns (and I'm guessing it didn't then, either). You're not forced to sell your house or whatever to call a big bet, you're only liable up to the amount you have on the table. Otherwise, poker would just become silly... the richest guy at the table could win every hand simply by betting big.

Irritating movie convention.


Meanwhile...

World Poker Tour, et al, call their games "No Limit" when in reality they're "Table Stakes," because like you said, the most you can bet is what you've got in front of you.

I guess No Limit sounds more dramatic.

But in your fantasy, Senor, don't you get into a Texas Hold 'em No Limit game with some rich Saudis and take them for a gazillion bucks? Which goes right to a Swiss account? Tax free? Plus 172 nubile virgins (which you won in a side bet) are lolling on you 400-foot yacht, breathlessly awaiting your arrival?

[Billdo]

Sure, sounds easy enough, but where are you supposed to count your money?

You don't count your money when you're sitting at the table. There'll be time enough for counting when the dealin's done.

[Otto]

Meanwhile...

World Poker Tour, et al, call their games "No Limit" when in reality they're "Table Stakes," because like you said, the most you can bet is what you've got in front of you.

I guess No Limit sounds more dramatic. Well, no. I mean yeah, no limit sounds more dramatic, but the game is "no limit" when compared to "limit" in which the amount of each bet and the number of raises per betting round is set.

[David Simmons]

I don't want to sound too cynical but instead of coming to a reasonable agreement among themselves and the dead players' estate, they'll fight about it and their lawyers will wind up with much of the pot.

As my evidence I cite the case of the rich geezer and the cutie (Anna Nichole Smith?). The son thinks she shouldn't have anything and is fighting or has fought. I believe hundreds of millions are involved. That sounds like plenty for everybody to me. I don't think the son was left penniless and it was the old man's money to do with as he chose.

[BarnOwl]

A guy named Yardley wrote a book "The Education of a Poker Player" in which a scenario like this played out. A grizzled old farmer called a bet with the deed (or whatever) to his farm and then died of a heart attack, at the table, while the hand was still in progress.

If memory serves, the old geezer had, as it turned out, the winning hand, so Yardley and the other players, gave the pot to his family. Or some such noble act.

At least that's my recollection of the incident. I read the book quite awhile ago.

I checked. You can find it at amazon.com. You might enjoy it.

[don't ask]

Well assuming the dead player has chips left can the other players let his body stay at the table until anted off?

[don't ask]

In Australia bets are cancelled when one party to the bet dies. Their was a famous incident in 1870 where a racehorse owner told a bookmaker friend that he had dreamt that his horse had won the Melbourne Cup and that the jockey was wearing a black armband. The bookmaker felt that thehorse had no chance and bet the owner 1,000 pounds to a cigar that the horse would not win. The horse did win and the jockey was wearing a black armband because the owner had died days before. Although the bookmaker could have cancelled the bet he paid the owner's widow. The law must be the same in England because the story of Walter Craig and Nimblefoot was appropriated for a short story about gypsies who carry the dead body of some gypsy around because she had backed some horse in the Derby and they had to convince the bookies she was still alive.

[David Simmons]

Well assuming the dead player has chips left can the other players let his body stay at the table until anted off?

You think maybe this is outlandish? Years ago there was a fire at one of our local bars which had a card room with a game in progress. The firemen practically had to carry the players out because they didn't want to leave until they had sorted out whose chips were whose.

[Number]

Well assuming the dead player has chips left can the other players let his body stay at the table until anted off?In a tournament, yes. His body wouldn't stay but his stacks would. This would be the case for any player who wasn't able to continue.

In a ring game he would just be dealt out.

[DesertDog]

There is a cute movie with a similar situation from 1966 with Jason Robards, called A Big Hand for the Little Lady. It's a Western and they're playing some form of "regular" poker - 5 cards, no river, turn, etc. The guy dies during the hand, and the players don't know what to do. The hand goes to his wife, but she doesn't have enough money to call. They aren't even too keen on letting a woman play. She ends up going to the bank to get a loan based on showing the cards to the bank manager. I forget what the hand was or the outcome.yabob's spoilered box tells most of the ending but didn't really answer your questions. The "little lady" was Joanne Woodward, and as for the rest of it:

The game was five-card draw and you never do see what the winning hand was. By "borrowing" money from banker Paul Ford, she outraised everyone at the table, forcing them to fold. She marches triumphantly out with the winnings, leaving her hand face down on the table. After a moment one of the stunned losers starts to reach for the hand, but another stops him; it hadn't been paid for. After a fade to black, the con is revealed.

None of the hands in that final game are shown. Henry Fonda had asked for a fresh deck before dealing it, and he was a card mechanic so by manipulating the shuffle and deal, he probably could have dealt anyone anything he liked. The camera sees one or two cards of the other players, and their hands were spectacular enough to keep all of them in with some pretty heavy heavy betting, but in the end, if the con was successful, Joanne's cards could have been anything.

It is (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060165/combined) unfortunately, not on disk yet. I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it was.

[Shodan]

If a player dies, you know what he is holding - two pair, aces and eights. (http://www.robohoo.com/poker_26.html) Act accordingly.

Regards,
Shodan