X-Wings v. AT-AT's

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

Why didn't the the Rebels use X-Wings against the AT-AT's during the Battle of Hoth? Wouldn't the X-Wings' proton torpedos have been effective against the AT-AT's?

[Roadwalker]

I posed the question to my 11-year-old and he said that it's probably because the X-wings were being used for the evacuation.

[fiddlesticks]

Perhaps X-Wings aren't quite as nimble "in-atmosphere" as the speeders. Why they couldn't retrofit proton torpedos onto the speeders, I don't know...

Tactics bedamned, the plot of the movie depended on the AT-AT's winning the Battle of Hoth.

[Larry Mudd]

Not just atmosphere -- the idea is that the freezing ice and snow quickly rendered regular fighters inoperable, so the snowspeeders were hastily developed. They're "actually" made from cannibalized Y-wing parts, fitted with heavy insulation, extra armor, and repulsor-lifts to aid them in planetary gravitation.

Uh, according to a passing 11-year-old.

[LordVor]

the idea is that the freezing ice and snow quickly rendered regular fighters inoperable

As opposed to, say, the nice sunny beach that is Outer Space?

-lv

[Miller]

As opposed to, say, the nice sunny beach that is Outer Space?

-lv

Does it snow that much in Outer Space?

[fiddlesticks]

In space it's a dry cold. :D

[PaulFitzroy]

My guess is that using the X-Wing on a terrestrial battle would be like using a Concorde jet to dust crops; too fast, and not enough braking power to be able to slow down to deal with objects close to the ground. The X-wing engines were probably designed to operate at extremely high revolutions and slow down gradually because they would have been used in space where there is nothing to crash into.

Ever notice how a jet-ski has no brakes? The manufacturers of jet-skis could have built water jets to shoot out from the front of the jet-ski, in the opposite direction from the ones in the rear that propel it forward, to be able to stop it quickly. In the water, though, there's a lot of space to deal with and a huge margin for error because there's nothing out there to crash into. A jet ski isn't cost-effective to add brakes to for that reason; sure, they could work, but in reality the only way to slow down a jet ski is to release the throttle and just slow down gradually. It would cost far too much to add additional jets to the jet-skis to be able to brake. Likewise the manufacturers of the X-wing probably didn't add powerful brakes for the same reason.

[rjung]

Of course, we mustn't forget the fact that the AT-AT is one of the worst designs for a land siege engine. Four big lumbering legs, ripe for the trippin' -- how the frag did that ever get past the initial design stage?

[Larry Mudd]

Four big lumbering legs, ripe for the trippin' -- how the frag did that ever get past the initial design stage?There's design continuity from the original model first brought to market by Haradrim Heavy Industry (http://home.zhwin.ch/~bernaste/rings/bilder/gallery/tt/high_res/oliphaunts.jpg). :D

[Ranchoth]

Of course, we mustn't forget the fact that the AT-AT is one of the worst designs for a land siege engine. Four big lumbering legs, ripe for the trippin' -- how the frag did that ever get past the initial design stage?

I figure that the Empire's military-industrial complex is full of the kind of guys who were designing all those weird Nazi weapons (http://www.luft46.com/) that Germany never got the chance to build.

Either that...or, in some strange, alien enviroment of the Star Wars galaxy, there exists a place where the AT-ATs are a practical and effective weapons system. :eek:

[SPOOFE]

Man, if you look at the novels (and I'm not necessarily recommending it), they toss X-wings at AT-AT's all the time, and of course the cash-strapped Rebel equipment is somehow t3h ub3rzzz when up against the army with unlimited funds...

But yeah, there was not technical reason why the X-wings didn't go against the walkers... on the other hand, there's no reason why several flights of TIE fighters and bombers didn't simply fly under the shield for air support...

[SPOOFE]

Of course, we mustn't forget the fact that the AT-AT is one of the worst designs for a land siege engine. Four big lumbering legs, ripe for the trippin' -- how the frag did that ever get past the initial design stage?
I always figured they just never intended their walkers to go up against an actual armed force. They figured intimidation was enough... oops.

[Duderdude2]

Slight Hijack, but related, I swear!

Was there ever an explanation for why the rebels didn't build the shield generator inside the shield itself?

[Larry Mudd]

I figure that the Empire's military-industrial complex is full of the kind of guys who were designing all those weird Nazi weapons (http://www.luft46.com/) that Germany never got the chance to build.Some of them (http://www.ricardobarreiroweb.com.ar/imagenes/naves/nave_gotha-229e.jpg) eventually got off the ground (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/7512/b2-4.jpg), though. :D

[Diceman]

Slight Hijack, but related, I swear!

Was there ever an explanation for why the rebels didn't build the shield generator inside the shield itself?
They did. That's why the Empire had to deploy troops at a distance, as opposed to just bombarding the base from orbit.

[Max Carnage]

A better tactic would have been tilting that ion cannon toward the walkers rather than the sky, stopping them in their tracks, and forcing a man to man battle.

[lno]

A legged AT-AT would be able to traverse rougher terrain than a wheeled or tracked vehicle. NASA's JPL is looking at legged rovers for future Mars missions.

Still, it wouldn't have hurt them if they could have moved just a little faster, or maybe had spikes on the legs, or radioactive spiders that jumped out, or ...

[smiling bandit]

Well, they do have really high ground clearance and can fire at things over the horizon line fro ground troops.

As opposed to, say, the nice sunny beach that is Outer Space?

Space isn't really cold. Nor is it hot. It just isn't anything. Its actually a fine insulator.

[caveman]

Still, it wouldn't have hurt them if they could have moved just a little faster, or maybe had spikes on the legs, or radioactive spiders that jumped out, or ...

Oh, sure, and make the enitre Rebel army into a bunch of angst-ridden, super-strong-and-agile webslingers? I think not... :D

[RandomLetters]

Some of them (http://www.ricardobarreiroweb.com.ar/imagenes/naves/nave_gotha-229e.jpg) eventually got off the ground (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/7512/b2-4.jpg), though. :D

To nitpick, the B-2 bomber is not really an extension of Nazi development - here in the US, Jack Northrop was independantly working on flying wing aircraft prior to WWII. In 1941, Northrop got a contract to build a prototype of an intercontinental bomber, that eventually led to YB-35 (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Northrop/Aero40G7.htm) and the YB-49 (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Northrop/Aero40G10.htm) bombers, those these craft lost out to the B-36 for the full production contract. Note that the B-2 bombers is built by the Northrop corporation.

[Duderdude2]

They did. That's why the Empire had to deploy troops at a distance, as opposed to just bombarding the base from orbit.

Ah, I guess I was confusing the games with the movie.

[Duderdude2]

Ah, I guess I was confusing the games with the movie.

Follow-up question: I presume the shield was pretty damn big if they were inside it during the battle (maybe I'm wrong). Why didn't they surround the shield generator with a smaller, shield generator sized shield?

[HubZilla]

If you reuse X-Wings instead of introduce Snowspeeders, you won't have new toys to sell.

[Severian]

Why didn't the the Rebels use X-Wings against the AT-AT's during the Battle of Hoth? Wouldn't the X-Wings' proton torpedos have been effective against the AT-AT's?Another possibility is that there weren't enough X-Wings to go around. They also had to cover the transports that were leaving the planet. Luke had his own, but did the other speeder pilots all have X-Wings as well? Or were they evacuated on transports?

[vibrotronica]

The snowspeeders were made from scavenged parts and would be of limited utility anywhere besides Hoth. X-wings were the front line space superiority fighters and very valuable pieces of equipment. So the rearguard got the expendable speeders, and the X-wings escorted the transports offworld.

[badomen]

They did mention in the briefing that there was only 1 or 2 (I don't remember offhand) fighters to cover each transport as it left, so it sounds like they didn't have a whole lot of X-Wings around to spare.

[msmith537]

Follow-up question: I presume the shield was pretty damn big if they were inside it during the battle (maybe I'm wrong). Why didn't they surround the shield generator with a smaller, shield generator sized shield?

It wouldn't matter. The Rebels depended on not getting found. Once the Empire found the Hoth base they could lay seige to it indefinitely until they won. Even if they destroyed ever AT-AT and AT-ST, more star destroyers would come with more armor and stormtroopers and eventually the base would fall.

The Battle of Hoth is basically a rearguard action by the Rebels. The crappy snowspeeders and ground troops just had to delay the At-Ats long enough to evacuate the important stuff - the leadership, the bulk of the troops and the more powerful weapon systems like the X-Wings (which they probably don't want destroyed fighting ground forces).

[rjung]

A legged AT-AT would be able to traverse rougher terrain than a wheeled or tracked vehicle.
Yes, everyone remembers being awed at the sight of that steep mountainous terrain all over Hoth... ;)

[Larry Mudd]

Actually, Hoth did have steep mountainous terrain -- in the backgrounds.

Ralph McQuarrie could manage it for the matte paintings with no problem -- Phil Tippett, not so much. :D

[Duderdude2]

Actually, Hoth did have steep mountainous terrain -- in the backgrounds.


That's what I've always admire most about Star Wars: It's consistency ;)

[Duderdude2]

That's what I've always admire most about Star Wars: It's consistency ;)

Argh, two typos in one post. Well, at least I'm consistent.

[chrisk]

Since no-one else has tried saying this, I will:

"Good grief man, you can't fire a proton torpedo within a planetary atmosphere!! Positive radiation would ionize the free gas radicals and you'd basically just manage to blow yourself up before the damn thing had gone twenty feet! They're hard-vacuum jobbers only."

:D :D :D

[Diceman]

Since no-one else has tried saying this, I will:

"Good grief man, you can't fire a proton torpedo within a planetary atmosphere!! Positive radiation would ionize the free gas radicals and you'd basically just manage to blow yourself up before the damn thing had gone twenty feet! They're hard-vacuum jobbers only."

:D :D :D
No, no. That's how Scotty from the original Star Trek would explain it. (Geordi would use more technobabble and less histrionics.)

In Star Wars, Han Solo or someone would just say that photon torpedos become unstable if fired in an atmpsphere, and leave it at that :)

[Tuckerfan]

To nitpick, the B-2 bomber is not really an extension of Nazi development - here in the US, Jack Northrop was independantly working on flying wing aircraft prior to WWII. In 1941, Northrop got a contract to build a prototype of an intercontinental bomber, that eventually led to YB-35 (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Northrop/Aero40G7.htm) and the YB-49 (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Northrop/Aero40G10.htm) bombers, those these craft lost out to the B-36 for the full production contract. Note that the B-2 bombers is built by the Northrop corporation.
To nitpick your nitpick, the Northrop guys did go to the Smithsonian to scope out the Horten bomber when they were working on the B-2.

[chrisk]

No, no. That's how Scotty from the original Star Trek would explain it. (Geordi would use more technobabble and less histrionics.)

In Star Wars, Han Solo or someone would just say that photon torpedos become unstable if fired in an atmpsphere, and leave it at that :)

I guess you can tell that star wars isn't really my fandom. ;) But at least I got the proton/photon thing straight.

:D

[middleman]

Wasn't the main fleet somewhere else? I imagine X-Wings, if they WERE willing to sacrifice them to the AT-ATs, were in rare supply.

The fleet, which is shown in RotJ, was quite large. Most of the X-Wings must have been with Admiral Ackbar.

[iggy popov]

What I never could understand regarding air support was in Return of the Jedi. Instead of waiting for Han and Company to blow up the shield generator on Endor, Why didn't they send a ship from the battle above down to just bomb the damn thing? At that point when the Death Star shield was still up you would think that sending one or two ships down the the planet would be a lot simpler than waiting around to see if the ground troops finished the job.

[Merijeek]

What I never could understand regarding air support was in Return of the Jedi. Instead of waiting for Han and Company to blow up the shield generator on Endor, Why didn't they send a ship from the battle above down to just bomb the damn thing? At that point when the Death Star shield was still up you would think that sending one or two ships down the the planet would be a lot simpler than waiting around to see if the ground troops finished the job.

IIRC, looking at the hologram before the attack, wasn't either the shield generator or all of Endor covered by the shield that's protecting the Death Star?

Keep in mind that Han & Co. had to request deactivation of the shield before they were allowed to land on Endor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Star Wars there seem to be two kinds of shields (or maybe one kind that's affected by the power you have available). One kind is the deflector shield which seems to do no good against a direct hit - see the fighting against the first Death Star for examples. The second kind is the actual 100% protection type, which is what we saw around Echo Base and DS2.

-Joe, geek

[rjung]

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Star Wars there seem to be two kinds of shields (or maybe one kind that's affected by the power you have available). One kind is the deflector shield which seems to do no good against a direct hit - see the fighting against the first Death Star for examples. The second kind is the actual 100% protection type, which is what we saw around Echo Base and DS2.
Could it be a matter of power supplies? I imagine an entire planetary moon's geothermal systems would produce more power for shields than anything in a TIE fighter or X-Wing could have.

[iggy popov]

IIRC, looking at the hologram before the attack, wasn't either the shield generator or all of Endor covered by the shield that's protecting the Death Star?

Keep in mind that Han & Co. had to request deactivation of the shield before they were allowed to land on Endor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Star Wars there seem to be two kinds of shields (or maybe one kind that's affected by the power you have available). One kind is the deflector shield which seems to do no good against a direct hit - see the fighting against the first Death Star for examples. The second kind is the actual 100% protection type, which is what we saw around Echo Base and DS2.

-Joe, geek

When I get off of work in an hour I'll check this out on the DvD. I'm pretty sure that the shield was only around the death star though.

[Miller]

What I never could understand regarding air support was in Return of the Jedi. Instead of waiting for Han and Company to blow up the shield generator on Endor, Why didn't they send a ship from the battle above down to just bomb the damn thing? At that point when the Death Star shield was still up you would think that sending one or two ships down the the planet would be a lot simpler than waiting around to see if the ground troops finished the job.

Simple: the giant deflector dish was probably surrounded by hundreds of AA-guns. No way an X-Wing could get within a hundred kilometers of that thing without getting shot down.

[iggy popov]

Simple: the giant deflector dish was probably surrounded by hundreds of AA-guns. No way an X-Wing could get within a hundred kilometers of that thing without getting shot down.


Isn't that what they said about both death stars too?

[ExTank]

Starfighters are probably not very good atmospheric fighters, and in any case, Snowspeeders can't cover Space Transports that are trying to run an Imperial Blockade.

IIRC, space is "hot" relative to the distance from a sun; in a planetary shadow, or in ideep space, space is quite cold.

Also IIRC, the DS2 shield at Endor went all the way down to the ground (it sure looked that way in Ackbar's cool holographic display tank).

What I want to know is this: back on Tatooine during EP: IV, why didn't the blockading Star Destroyers deploy their scads of TIE Fighters to assist with the blockade?

Why didn't the Star Destroyers chasing the Millenium Falcon from Tatooine, and then later from Hoth, ever use their Ion Cannons to simply disable the damned junkheap?

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

What I want to know is this: back on Tatooine during EP: IV, why didn't the blockading Star Destroyers deploy their scads of TIE Fighters to assist with the blockade?

ILM didn't have the funds.

[SPOOFE]

What I want to know is this: back on Tatooine during EP: IV, why didn't the blockading Star Destroyers deploy their scads of TIE Fighters to assist with the blockade?
They're short-range fighters, meant for close dogfighting rather than patrol. They HAD dedicated patrol boats (rather, they were retconned in), but they weren't seen. I guess Star Destroyers have faster real-space acceleration than smaller vessels (hell, look how quickly they rounded Endor for the ambush in ROTJ...)