Evangelical Christmas Cards.

[Homebrew]

I'm kind of a black-sheep atheist of the family. One of my aunts, a sister of my mother, is married to an Assemblies of God preacher. So of course, they all so worried about my immortal soul. I received an interesting Christmas card from them yesterday.

The front of the card:
Hundreds and even thousands of year before Jesus the Messiah was born in Bethlehem, God had spoken many prophecies about His coming. (blah, blah, blah) He had to fulfill every prophecy that was ever spoken and written ... and He did. Every single one.

That's just the set up. Inside there's a long list of supposed prohecies and the verses where they were "fulfilled". Then there's the bit about prophecies concerning his "second coming". I swear I've never seen a card wo so much text.

Isn't it enough to prostelyze every time I see you in person? Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card. Jeez. I know that you're super religious. I know you think I'm going to hell. But do you have to annoy me with every interaction?

[XJETGIRLX]

Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card.

Um, perhaps because it's Christmas, a religious holiday which many Christians celebrate with friends and family?

You're pitting someone for sending you a religiously-themed card on a religious holiday? How dare they! The bastards! :rolleyes:

[gobear]

Isn't it enough to proselytize every time I see you in person? Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card? Jeez, I know that you're super religious. I know you think I'm going to hell. But do you have to annoy me with every interaction?

Well, given your description of her, I doubt that this card was aimed specifically at you; more likely, she just bought a box of uber-Jesusy Xmas cards to distribute. Considering also that this is putatively the celebration of You Know Who's birth, you really ought to let this one slide. Pick your battles and all that.

For shits and giggles, you might want to e-mail your aunt a link to this page (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html).

I have examined more than two dozen alleged messianic prophecies which Christian apologists claim are fulfilled by Jesus. Although there are many more claimed such prophecies (e.g., McDowell (1972) lists 61 in some detail and refers to numerous additional verses without details), these are by far the best examples, by the apologists' own reckoning.[9] This examination shows that none stands up as a specific, detailed, and accurate prediction of an event which came to occur in the life of Jesus. Instead, the purported prophecies appear to be the result of deliberate attempts by the gospel writers and Christian apologists to find post hoc similarities between events described in the New Testament and the Hebrew scriptures. Messianic prophecies, contrary to apologists, do not provide evidence for Christian faith.

[Homebrew]

You're pitting someone for sending you a religiously-themed card on a religious holiday? How dare they! The bastards! :rolleyes:Yes, it's fucking annoying that every single interaction with someone has to be a chance for them to save my soul. They had to search for a special distributor for this card. When's the last time you saw a card with 20 Bible cites at the Hallmark store? Hell, I'd not been bugged if it was simply a "Jesus is the reason for the season" type or a quote of Luke 2:11. But this thing is chock full of preachin'.

Don't you think they'd be annoyed if I used every opportunity to try to debunk their religious convictions? When I visit for the holidays I avoid religious discussions out of respect. Why can't they?

[Greenback]

Because your annoyance on the matter pales in comparison to the eternal damnation of your soul.

[Green Cymbeline]

Um, perhaps because it's Christmas, a religious holiday which many Christians celebrate with friends and family?

You're pitting someone for sending you a religiously-themed card on a religious holiday? How dare they! The bastards! :rolleyes:
I send out holiday cards in December. I make sure there is no mention of "Christmas" or any images denoting a certain religions (Christmas tree, Santa Claus, angels, etc.) Just "Season's Greetings," or "Happy Holidays" and perhaps a nice winter scene (mine this year have birds). The holiday season is not religious for everyone, XJETGIRLX. And more than one religion celebrate a holiday this month too.

[CanvasShoes]

Um, perhaps because it's Christmas, a religious holiday which many Christians celebrate with friends and family?

You're pitting someone for sending you a religiously-themed card on a religious holiday? How dare they! The bastards! :rolleyes:
Except that, since you apparently didn't read the OP, they didn't send him a "religious themed" Christmas card. For instance a manger scene and God Bless you. They sent him a shortened Chick Tract.

Look, I'm a christian (NOT FUNDIE), and even I'D be annoyed with that sort of arrogance. Not to mention, it says right IN the bible (in more KJV verbiage of course), that we're not supposed to go around shoving our beleifs down people's throats, and alll sorts of other verses to that effect.

[neuroman]

Homebrew, I sympathize, but seriously, did you expect for your fundamentalist relatives to let the second most important holiday in Christianity go by without taking the opportunity to loudly trumpet their faith/proselytize to you?

Ah, of course you didn't. You're just venting. Well, vent away. Also, I'm sure that while cards toting a score of bible verses on them aren't at many Hallmarks, they're probably the first thing inside the door at Christian bookstores this time of year.

[Indygrrl]

You could just throw it away. That's what I do when I get those Jehovah Witness newsletter thingies in my mail (how did they get my address anyway?).

[Lord Ashtar]

Isn't it enough to prostelyze every time I see you in person? Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card. Jeez. I know that you're super religious. I know you think I'm going to hell. But do you have to annoy me with every interaction?
Yeah, fuck them for thinking about you during the holidays!

Asshole.

[gobear]

Yeah, fuck them for thinking about you during the holidays!

Asshole.

Hey, fuck off! Homebrew is expressing a perfectly normal irritation at being preached at in an over-the-top Christmas card. He's venting, so let him! The Godbotherers won't let the rest of us enjoy eggnog and cookies oh no, we have to genuflect to their godling in the manger, too

Judgmental dipshit.

[XJETGIRLX]

I send out holiday cards in December. I make sure there is no mention of "Christmas" or any images denoting a certain religions (Christmas tree, Santa Claus, angels, etc.) Just "Season's Greetings," or "Happy Holidays" and perhaps a nice winter scene (mine this year have birds). The holiday season is not religious for everyone, XJETGIRLX. And more than one religion celebrate a holiday this month too.

But he's not bitching about a Holiday card. He's bitching about a Christmas card, sent by an admittedly very-religious family member.

It's one thing to say, "I don't celebrate the religious aspect of the season and would appreciate a more neutral greeting". He specifically derided the use of religion in a Christmas card.

[5que]

Yeah, fuck them for thinking about you during the holidays!
Asshole
Judgmental dipshit
I just LOVE the holidays!

[andros]

He specifically derided the use of religion in a Christmas card.

He did nothing of the sort. Why don't you read the OP, then try again.

[XJETGIRLX]

Except that, since you apparently didn't read the OP, they didn't send him a "religious themed" Christmas card. For instance a manger scene and God Bless you. They sent him a shortened Chick Tract.

Look, I'm a christian (NOT FUNDIE), and even I'D be annoyed with that sort of arrogance. Not to mention, it says right IN the bible (in more KJV verbiage of course), that we're not supposed to go around shoving our beleifs down people's throats, and alll sorts of other verses to that effect.

I don't see how giving someone a card (that they can do with what they please) is 'shoving' your religion down someone's throat.

Christ almighty, I understand that he's not religious, but you can't dictate how other people celebrate their religious holidays. If his family wants to send out religious holiday cards, more power to 'em. If he doesn't agree with the sentiment, he can drop it in the trash - no skin off his back.

[Lord Ashtar]

Hey, fuck off! Homebrew is expressing a perfectly normal irritation at being preached at in an over-the-top Christmas card. He's venting, so let him! The Godbotherers won't let the rest of us enjoy eggnog and cookies oh no, we have to genuflect to their godling in the manger, too

Judgmental dipshit.
He can vent all he likes. I'm still free to think him an asshole for bitching about somebody trying to be nice.

Of course, you're still free to think I'm a judgmental prick as well.

[XJETGIRLX]

He did nothing of the sort. Why don't you read the OP, then try again.

Oh bite me. Here's exactly what he said:

Isn't it enough to prostelyze every time I see you in person? Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card.

He's saying he wants a non-religious christmas card. He didn't say he wanted a 'holiday card', but rather he was bitching about the use of religion in a christmas card sent to him.

[Homebrew]

He specifically derided the use of religion in a Christmas card.No. I derided the use of an overwhelmingly, decidedly fundamentalist, preachy Christmas card. They know I don't believe. They could have just as easily sent a simple "Merry Christmas" card; but they went to the trouble of finding evangelistic one. It's not a celebratory card, it's a witnessing card. It is annoying. My mother sent me one with Mary and the baby Jesus on it that says "Have a Blessed Christmas" on the outside and "Let's remember the reason for Christmas" on the inseide. It was simple and religious; but not evangelical. It didn't bother me and I didn't feel like it was preachy. If you can't tell the difference than you're a simpleton.

[Miller]

Yeah, fuck them for thinking about you during the holidays!

If I had relatives like that, I'd prefer they not think of me at all.

Thank God I was raised by heathens.

[XJETGIRLX]

No. I derided the use of an overwhelmingly, decidedly fundamentalist, preachy Christmas card. They know I don't believe. They could have just as easily sent a simple "Merry Christmas" card; but they went to the trouble of finding evangelistic one. It's not a celebratory card, it's a witnessing card. It is annoying. My mother sent me one with Mary and the baby Jesus on it that says "Have a Blessed Christmas" on the outside and "Let's remember the reason for Christmas" on the inseide. It was simple and religious; but not evangelical. It didn't bother me and I didn't feel like it was preachy. If you can't tell the difference than you're a simpleton.

And how do you know it was any trouble? How do you know she doesn't have half a case of them left in her basement from Y2K? Why do you feel the need to let it bother you so much? Seriously, she was trying to send you a message that was powerful and meaningful for her, hoping to share it with you. You happen to disagree with the sentiment, no harm, no foul.

[Anaamika]

XJETGIRLX, I think you need to calm down. You're getting more irate over this than he is. I assume you've never been on the receiving end of a family that constantly tries to convert you and change you and think they know better than you.

He wasn't just pitting the Christmas card. He was pitting how all the time they try to convert him, even at Christmas, which is the time you're supposed to love one another and forget and forgive eash others' trespasses. It seems like another way to separate the family instead of bringing them closer together.

Homebrew, my family does the same thing - only they want me to go back to Hinduism.

[Homebrew]

..., hoping to share it with you...My family was very close. We lived blocks away and attended the same church. She knows I know the message. Hell, I used to believe it myself and was even a youth leader. This card is not subtle. Did you read the quotes I gave? It is specifically a hamfisted attempt to offer proof for their POV and convert people. Whether she has boxes of these cards or bought one just for me, it's not the kind at Wal*Mart or Hallmark. It has to be sought out. Have you ever seen one this preachy? It's annoying that they are constantly disrespectful of my beliefs. I don't try to mess with their faith, I wish they'd leave my lack therof alone.

[Cat Whisperer]

I think the only appropriate response, Homebrew, would be to send them a Saturnalia card, complete with lots of references to the pagan gods and rituals that Christianity co-opted for Christmas. Turnabout's fair play - they seem to be trying to educate you, so I would suggest educating them in turn.

[XJETGIRLX]

XJETGIRLX, I think you need to calm down. You're getting more irate over this than he is. I assume you've never been on the receiving end of a family that constantly tries to convert you and change you and think they know better than you.


I'm not the least bit irate, I just think it's rather stupid for him to get upset about his family's religious bent over a Christmas card. I mean, c'mon. For fuck's sake, christmas is a religous holiday. If he wants to get bent at a truly out-of-line proselytizing from his family, so be it. But it's a christmas card. A card meant to spread a religious sentiment. If he can't take it in the nature it was intended then all he had to do was say, "I'm sorry, I don't celebrate christmas"

On the whole, I think it's just rather stupid in general to get riled up about christmas cards and holiday greetings anyways. This time of year it seems everyone goes batshit with self-righteous indignation if they're not wished the very specific, exact form of holiday greeting that conforms to their beliefs (or lack thereof). It happens every year, and there will be about a half dozen more threads like this before the end of the year from people who are pissed off that someone dared to wish them well.

[John Mace]

No. I derided the use of an overwhelmingly, decidedly fundamentalist, preachy Christmas card. They know I don't believe. They could have just as easily sent a simple "Merry Christmas" card; but they went to the trouble of finding evangelistic one. It's not a celebratory card, it's a witnessing card. It is annoying. My mother sent me one with Mary and the baby Jesus on it that says "Have a Blessed Christmas" on the outside and "Let's remember the reason for Christmas" on the inseide. It was simple and religious; but not evangelical. It didn't bother me and I didn't feel like it was preachy. If you can't tell the difference than you're a simpleton.

I'm with those who say you are making a mountain over a molehill unless you know for certain that your relative targeted you specifically for this overly evangelical card and sent cards with a simpler message to others. Do you know that? If you don't, then just chalk it up to yet another Christmas mass mailing.

[XJETGIRLX]

My family was very close. We lived blocks away and attended the same church. She knows I know the message. Hell, I used to believe it myself and was even a youth leader. This card is not subtle. Did you read the quotes I gave? It is specifically a hamfisted attempt to offer proof for their POV and convert people. Whether she has boxes of these cards or bought one just for me, it's not the kind at Wal*Mart or Hallmark. It has to be sought out. Have you ever seen one this preachy? It's annoying that they are constantly disrespectful of my beliefs. I don't try to mess with their faith, I wish they'd leave my lack therof alone.

I think you're doing an awful lot of presumption on the part of the motives of others. So she thinks she's doing the right thing - is it really that threatening to you?

Just send her a card that says "I'm glad I don't believe in a giant sky pixie - hope you get over your disillusionment!" and be done with it.

[Miller]

And how do you know it was any trouble? How do you know she doesn't have half a case of them left in her basement from Y2K? Why do you feel the need to let it bother you so much? Seriously, she was trying to send you a message that was powerful and meaningful for her, hoping to share it with you. You happen to disagree with the sentiment, no harm, no foul.

How do you know that's her motivation? It's Homebrew's aunt. He knows her better than you do, and he's probably got a better handle on why she'd send him that particular card. As stated in the OP, this isn't the first time his aunt has tried to witness to him, and she must know that he doesn't really appreciate it (I'm suspecting there's a strong, "You're going to burn in hell if you keep being a homo" component to said witnessing, but I could be wrong). If he's not been receptive to her proselytizing in real life, a polite person would back off and respect his differences. Instead, she keeps trying, this time disguising her witnessing as a holiday greeting card. That's not only rude, it's disgustingly passive agressive. I'd be pissed, too, if one of my relatives acted like that. Probably quite a bit more pissed than Homebrew was in his OP.

[Anaamika]

I'm not the least bit irate, I just think it's rather stupid for him to get upset about his family's religious bent over a Christmas card. I mean, c'mon. For fuck's sake, christmas is a religous holiday. If he wants to get bent at a truly out-of-line proselytizing from his family, so be it. But it's a christmas card. A card meant to spread a religious sentiment. If he can't take it in the nature it was intended then all he had to do was say, "I'm sorry, I don't celebrate christmas"

On the whole, I think it's just rather stupid in general to get riled up about christmas cards and holiday greetings anyways. This time of year it seems everyone goes batshit with self-righteous indignation if they're not wished the very specific, exact form of holiday greeting that conforms to their beliefs (or lack thereof). It happens every year, and there will be about a half dozen more threads like this before the end of the year from people who are pissed off that someone dared to wish them well.

I like that you didn't read the second part of my reponse. Let me repeat: He isn't just pitting the card. He's pitting the entire mindset of his family, culminating in a card that doesn't express the sentiments of the holiday! Rather than saying "You're gay, *and atheist, but we love you at Christmastime anyway" they sent a card that says, essentially, "Haven't you decided we're right, yet?"

*Homebrew, I don't know that you're gay, but Miller thinks so, so I'm going with it.

[XJETGIRLX]

I like that you didn't read the second part of my reponse. Let me repeat: He isn't just pitting the card. He's pitting the entire mindset of his family, culminating in a card that doesn't express the sentiments of the holiday! Rather than saying "You're gay, *and atheist, but we love you at Christmastime anyway" they sent a card that says, essentially, "Haven't you decided we're right, yet?"

*Homebrew, I don't know that you're gay, but Miller thinks so, so I'm going with it.

And I like how you completely skipped over the title of this entire thread 'EVANGELICAL CHRISTMAS CARDS'

The thrust of the OP was aimed at the card, and why his family couldn't just send him a religion-free card. Apparently he has other issues re: religion and his family, and it seems that he's incredibly threatened and touchy about the subject as a whole. But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.

[XJETGIRLX]

How do you know that's her motivation? It's Homebrew's aunt. He knows her better than you do, and he's probably got a better handle on why she'd send him that particular card. As stated in the OP, this isn't the first time his aunt has tried to witness to him, and she must know that he doesn't really appreciate it (I'm suspecting there's a strong, "You're going to burn in hell if you keep being a homo" component to said witnessing, but I could be wrong). If he's not been receptive to her proselytizing in real life, a polite person would back off and respect his differences. Instead, she keeps trying, this time disguising her witnessing as a holiday greeting card. That's not only rude, it's disgustingly passive agressive. I'd be pissed, too, if one of my relatives acted like that. Probably quite a bit more pissed than Homebrew was in his OP.

I agree that it's apparent there are issues between him and his family with regards to religion. But to get pissed off at someone who is admittedly religious for sending a religious card on a religious holiday? Gimme a break.

[gobear]

And I like how you completely skipped over the title of this entire thread 'EVANGELICAL CHRISTMAS CARDS'

The thrust of the OP was aimed at the card, and why his family couldn't just send him a religion-free card. Apparently he has other issues re: religion and his family, and it seems that he's incredibly threatened and touchy about the subject as a whole. But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.

Well, for one thing, Christmas is as much a secular holiday as it is a religious one, so stop acting as you Jeezers won Christmas because you don't. His aunt could have sent him a Santa card or even a mild Jesus card--sending a hardcore preaching is deliberately aggressive and disrespectful.

Second, Homebrew has every right to vent about his anger at his aunt's relentless witnessing. The cards may not bother XJetgirlX, but it wasn;t sent to her, was it? Homebrew is entitled to his feelings.

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip> But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.
See, I didn't get that. I didn't think that he was pitting a religious card in celebration of a religious holiday - I understood that he was pitting his family taking yet another opportunity to try to shove their beliefs down his throat when they know that Homebrew doesn't share them and isn't interested in them.

It's like me being very interested in, let's say, unicorn collecting. If somebody tells me they're not interested in unicorns, but I keep giving them unicorns as gifts in the hopes of converting them to my point of view someday, that's *my* problem, not theirs for not liking unicorns. It's not about the unicorns, in other words.

[Miller]

The thrust of the OP was aimed at the card, and why his family couldn't just send him a religion-free card. Apparently he has other issues re: religion and his family, and it seems that he's incredibly threatened and touchy about the subject as a whole. But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.

No, he wasn't, as he specifically stated on numerous occasions in this thread, including right in the OP. To whit:

Isn't it enough to prostelyze every time I see you in person? Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card.

My mother sent me one with Mary and the baby Jesus on it that says "Have a Blessed Christmas" on the outside and "Let's remember the reason for Christmas" on the inseide. It was simple and religious; but not evangelical. It didn't bother me and I didn't feel like it was preachy.

Reading isn't really your strong suit, is it?

[Eve]

I get actual religious Christmas cards from a few acquaintances, and I think, "oh, how cute," and put them up with the rest of my cards.

My mother once got a Christmas card from a coworker, who wrote inside that she hoped my mother saw the light and came to Jesus before she died, or her soul would go to hell. Now, that was a bit de trop.

[gobear]

Now, now, XJetgirlX is having a dramatic moment protecting the True Faith, why spoil her fun?

[betenoir]

He can vent all he likes. I'm still free to think him an asshole for bitching about somebody trying to be nice.

Of course, you're still free to think I'm a judgmental prick as well.


They're not trying to be nice. If they were trying to be nice they'd think "hey, Homebrew is not religious. Why don't we send him a card he'd actually like . Ya know, something that would actually make his Christmas merry . "

That's what being nice is.

They weren't.

[Homebrew]

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.I was expressing mild annoyance at the fact that yet again, my family can't leave their prostylizing out of a single interaction. Yes the card is the object du jour, but it's just the latest annoyance.

In fact I'm more pissed by your continued attempt to paint me as an intolerant, thin-skinned jerk for venting on an anynomous message board that they'll never see than I am at them. Would you rather I write them back with the cites that gobear provided? Or that I tell them to fuck off? I get the feeling that you'd send one of these cards to someone if you had one and taking my reaction personally.

[Anaamika]

And I like how you completely skipped over the title of this entire thread 'EVANGELICAL CHRISTMAS CARDS'

The thrust of the OP was aimed at the card, and why his family couldn't just send him a religion-free card. Apparently he has other issues re: religion and his family, and it seems that he's incredibly threatened and touchy about the subject as a whole. But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.

Wait, you're basing this whole thing on the title of the thread, rather than what is in the body of the OP? How much info could he have put in the title? That's why we explain ourselves.

I'm going to ask you again: have you ever been on the receiving end of this kind of constant gnawing at you, this constant worrying for your soul?

Besides I do not believe that a Christmas card with a whole bunch of Scripture is in any way indicative of the season. A loving note would be a whole lot better.

[CanvasShoes]

But he's not bitching about a Holiday card. He's bitching about a Christmas card, sent by an admittedly very-religious family member.

It's one thing to say, "I don't celebrate the religious aspect of the season and would appreciate a more neutral greeting". He specifically derided the use of religion in a Christmas card.
No, he didn't, that's what the OP is about, NOT that it's a Christmas card, and he specifically SAYS (paraphrased) "I wouldn't mind a "Reason for the Season or some such".

He's talking about the "shove it down your throatness" of the 900 bible verses etc contained in this PARTICULAR card.

Read the OP.

[CanvasShoes]

I don't see how giving someone a card (that they can do with what they please) is 'shoving' your religion down someone's throat.

Christ almighty, I understand that he's not religious, but you can't dictate how other people celebrate their religious holidays. If his family wants to send out religious holiday cards, more power to 'em. If he doesn't agree with the sentiment, he can drop it in the trash - no skin off his back.
Because, the card contained, NOT a simple declaration of the reason for the season, but a whole ton of Tract like verses and such. A BIG difference between that and a mere "God Bless You".

HUGE.

[XJETGIRLX]

No, he didn't, that's what the OP is about, NOT that it's a Christmas card, and he specifically SAYS (paraphrased) "I wouldn't mind a "Reason for the Season or some such".

He's talking about the "shove it down your throatness" of the 900 bible verses etc contained in this PARTICULAR card.

Read the OP.

I read the OP. And I understand it's the message he's pissed off at. I just fail to see that Christmas is the time to fight this battle. If they were trying to prosyletize during, oh, say any other time of year I can see how he would be pissed off.

I'm going to step out of this now and let you all continue your self-righteous indignation. Just thought I might point out that for those of us who celebrate christmas, a religous card is not an insult and we don't give them out to offend.

[Anaamika]

I read the OP. And I understand it's the message he's pissed off at. I just fail to see that Christmas is the time to fight this battle. If they were trying to prosyletize during, oh, say any other time of year I can see how he would be pissed off.

I'm going to step out of this now and let you all continue your self-righteous indignation. Just thought I might point out that for those of us who celebrate christmas, a religous card is not an insult and we don't give them out to offend.

YOU'RE NOT LISTENING. They do prosyletize the whole rest of the year! And go voer the fucking top at Christmas!

[gobear]

I read the OP. And I understand it's the message he's pissed off at. I just fail to see that Christmas is the time to fight this battle. If they were trying to prosyletize during, oh, say any other time of year I can see how he would be pissed off.

Now, that's what I said in my first post, and if you had left it at that, we wouldn't nowe be having this conversation.

I'm going to step out of this now and let you all continue your self-righteous indignation.

We will leave it to the reader to decide just who is posting with "self-righteous indignation." Have you been taking unintentional irony lessons from Lib?

Just thought I might point out that for those of us who celebrate christmas, a religous card is not an insult and we don't give them out to offend.
[/quote]
But this wasn't just a religious card. Read [b]Homebrew's post #4

Hell, I'd not been bugged if it was simply a "Jesus is the reason for the season" type or a quote of Luke 2:11. But this thing is chock full of preachin'

He clearly states that a religious card would not bug him, but this one did because it wasn't merely religious, but aggressively preachy. There is a difference between the two, but I think you've amply demonstrated that literacy isn't your strong suit.

[CanvasShoes]

And I like how you completely skipped over the title of this entire thread 'EVANGELICAL CHRISTMAS CARDS'

The thrust of the OP was aimed at the card, and why his family couldn't just send him a religion-free card. Apparently he has other issues re: religion and his family, and it seems that he's incredibly threatened and touchy about the subject as a whole. But he was pitting the fact that they sent him a religious christmas card. In celebration of a religious holiday.
Are you simple? Do you not understand the difference between a "religious" message and an Evangelical one?

In the religious card, it merely expresses a person's blessings through their particular belief, for example "God Bless and keep you etc". In the second, AS WAS WRITTEN in the OP, it's preaching AT someone, and with a LOT of back up, the verses he quoted etc.

All his other issues aside, he's making a big fuss over nothing.
Actually, as someone else pointed out, he's really not, he had his vent, and was a lot calmer about it than a lot of people, YOU seem to be the one deciding FOR him what he meant, and what kind of person his Aunt is.

You know something? I'm a christian, I used to be a baptist. My family still says "God Bless you" and little phrases like that. They KNOW of my sister's and my aversion to our former church, and why. But even though we were once "in the fold" they respect our wishes, and aren't constantly hounding us to come back to "THE" church.

Were they to, we'd be just as annoyed at their meddling. This is really no different than someone constantly harping on "when are you two kids going to stop living 'in sin' and get married", or "you really should invest in the stock market, it's the smart "adult' thing to do".

Like that. the OP clearly knows his family and their motives better than you do, I'm confident that he has the ability to be correct in his assessment of why they sent THIS particular card.

[Anaamika]

Never mind. She is so convinced that anytime anyone gives you anything, it's out of the goodness of their heart and should be received with obsequious* bowing and gratitude.

Not that the giver may have ulterior motives. I remember that from my reading of the Bible, "Make sure you convert people by constantly bugging them. Oh, and the anniversary of my birth? Doubly annoy them. Especially if they're family, and they have a right to expect respect from you."

I don't like to use this in a mean way, but: :rolleyes:

I'm sure I spelled this wrong. Oh well. Can't remember the right way this minute.

[C3]

IMy mother once got a Christmas card from a coworker, who wrote inside that she hoped my mother saw the light and came to Jesus before she died, or her soul would go to hell. Now, that was a bit de trop.

My aunt does stuff like that. My brother is actually very religious, but of the wrong brand according to auntie - he's LDS. He's a fantastic person who's married to a wonderful woman and they've raised four polite, smart, beautiful kids. Every year, my aunt sticks a little tract in their Christmas card telling them they're all burning in hell because they're Mormon. Merry Christmas!

I've got to agree with XJETGIRLX. She wasn't shoving anything down your throat. It's Christmas (to her), she sent a Christmas card (highlighting the most important thing of the season to her). At least she wasn't gleefully condemning you to eternal damnation. Throw it away if you don't like it.

(I'm an atheist, too, and I get a lot of lovely cards with all sorts of Jesus-y stuff...they're sent out of love, so I appreciate them.)

[Lord Ashtar]

They're not trying to be nice. If they were trying to be nice they'd think "hey, Homebrew is not religious. Why don't we send him a card he'd actually like . Ya know, something that would actually make his Christmas merry . "

That's what being nice is.

They weren't.
Maybe it's just that I'm coming from the perspective of a person who's family doesn't think enough of me to send me cards during the holidays. Maybe I'm a little jealous.

[CanvasShoes]

I read the OP. And I understand it's the message he's pissed off at. No you don't. Because if you did, you wouldn't be arguing it.

Just thought I might point out that for those of us who celebrate christmas, a religous card is not an insult and we don't give them out to offend.
It. is. NOT a "religious" card. It is NOT a card "celebrating Christmas". Sheesh, you ARE simple.

The whole POINT of the thread, and he SAID this, is that it's not just religious, it's EVANGELICAL, there his a difference, a VERY big one. I give up. You're making catsix look like the most agreeable reasonable doper here.

[rjung]

They have every right to send you prolestyzing Christmas cards. May be tacky IMO, but it's their right.

Of course, you also have a right to send back winter holiday cards featuring mistletoe and berries, whereupon inside you wish them a happy Winter Solstice and a Joyful Yule. :D

[gobear]

They have every right to send you prolestyzing Christmas cards. May be tacky IMO, but it's their right.

Of course, you also have a right to send back winter holiday cards featuring mistletoe and berries, whereupon inside you wish them a happy Winter Solstice and a Joyful Yule. :D

Or he could send them a card with an adorable li'l squirrel squeaking, "Hail, Satan!", wishing them a Woodland Critter Christmas to celebrate the birth of the Antichrist, Devourer of Worlds.

[Miller]

I read the OP. And I understand it's the message he's pissed off at.

That's step one. Step two is understanding the OP. This you have consumatly failed to do.

I just fail to see that Christmas is the time to fight this battle.

Newsflash, braniac: he's not fighting that battle. He's not calling up his aunt and yelling at her for sending this card. He's not trying to turn other members of his family against her. He's not sending her cards celebrating holidays for religions she doesn't believe in to piss her off. He's smiling nicely at the card, and coming here to vent so his aunt will never know that her theoretically well-intentioned gesture wasn't not appreciated.

If they were trying to prosyletize during, oh, say any other time of year I can see how he would be pissed off.

This is just stupid. Agressive evangelism is unacceptable behavior any other day of the year? Christmas is now "free pass to proselytize day"? Is there a holiday where blinkered idiocy is acceptable? 'Cause that must be your favorite time of the year.

I'm going to step out of this now and let you all continue your self-righteous indignation.

You are a coward and a hypocrite.

Just thought I might point out that for those of us who celebrate christmas, a religous card is not an insult and we don't give them out to offend.

Right, because you're the only one posting to this thread who celebrates Christmas.

Ass.

[Polycarp]

But he's not bitching about a Holiday card. He's bitching about a Christmas card, sent by an admittedly very-religious family member.

It's one thing to say, "I don't celebrate the religious aspect of the season and would appreciate a more neutral greeting". He specifically derided the use of religion in a Christmas card.

Except that he didn't. In a later post, he made quite clear that he expected to see a religiously themed card from them. This one, however, was over the top -- and here's the logic:

Christmas is the season when Christians celebrate the Incarnation -- the idea that the Second Person of the God who Created and Preserves the World took on human form, in order that He might live and die among us as one of us. That's a pretty big deal in and of itself.

These yahoos, however (with no offense to Dean Swift's humanoids nor to the Internet-based multi-service company), are not content to celebrate the Birth of Christ -- they need to do a sermonette on the prophesies of His first and second comings, presumably so that Homebrew will give up his perverse sexuality and repent of his sinful nature, and become a Good Godfearing Christian like them.

That sounds pretty distasteful to me. The odd little quotes about the births of Hezekiah and Emanu-el that are traditionally seen as prophetic of Christ would be a bit strained when sent to a supposed nonbeleiver, to start with -- throw in the "Christ is Coming Again to Judge You" material as well, and it's a bit much. (Though they did send the cards during Advent, 'Brew -- give them credit for at least keeping calendric focus! ;))

[Polycarp]

I get actual religious Christmas cards from a few acquaintances, and I think, "oh, how cute," and put them up with the rest of my cards.

My mother once got a Christmas card from a coworker, who wrote inside that she hoped my mother saw the light and came to Jesus before she died, or her soul would go to hell. Now, that was a bit de trop.

Or even a bit over de trop! :)

[5que]

Or he could send them a card with an adorable li'l squirrel squeaking, "Hail, Satan!", wishing them a Woodland Critter Christmas to celebrate the birth of the Antichrist, Devourer of Worlds.
Link to vendor, please!

[gobear]

Link to vendor, please!
Well, the South Park folks haven't got that one up yet, but how about a Santa Cthulhu (http://www.needcoffee.com/html/toys/scthulhu.htm)?

[Shirley Ujest]

I get actual religious Christmas cards from a few acquaintances, and I think, "oh, how cute," and put them up with the rest of my cards.

My mother once got a Christmas card from a coworker, who wrote inside that she hoped my mother saw the light and came to Jesus before she died, or her soul would go to hell. Now, that was a bit de trop.

Your mom could send a note off to this so-called friend saying, " I could see the light if someone could pay my electric bill."

[usar_jag]

Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card. Jeez.

Well, before you put the card in the circular file, remind yourself that at least they did care (in their own special way) enough to remember you over the Holidays.

Let me see if I can accomplish what your Aunt cannot: I am wishing you a very Merry Christmas. (If that's even possible in St. Louis.)

Peace.

[whole bean]

Although I can certainly understand a frustration with evangelical activity (believe me I bear with a lot of it from the in-laws), it seems to me like Christmas is right up there with Easter in times when you ought to expect it. Furthermore, of all the evangelic activity there is to be put out with, a Christmas card (or card of any type) seems to be the least intrusive (as opposed to say a kidnapping). You don't like it. Just throw it away. You didn't say (I don't think) that the card contained any damning language (e.g. "you're going to hell"); so it appears more like an attempt to spread the good news (as they say). I have to disagree with what Anaamika wrote, that the card "doesn't express the sentiments of the holiday!" (emphasis mine). Umm, for a good many, the sentiments of the holiday (Christmas that is) has to do with the birth of Jesus (and all that entails).

Finally, I am a bit disheartened by the apparent dogpiling on Christmas in general . . . with words like godling (WTF?) and tongue-in-cheek (I hope) comments about satanic squirrels and whatnot. To ask that a Christian divorce Christmastime from Christ doesn't seem very fair. That being said, when they annoy you with it (and I can think of examples a lot worse than a card), shake it off. I know, I know, it's the evangalism in general, but what else do you expect from an evangelical at Christmas. Pit the Birthday card you get with Bible verses and I'll join you.

[usar_jag]

Why can't you send a basic "wishing you a merry Christmas" card. Jeez.

Well, before you put the card in the circular file, remind yourself that at least they did care (in their own special way) enough to remember you over the Holidays.

Let me see if I can accomplish what your Aunt cannot: I am wishing you a very Merry Christmas. (If that's even possible in St. Louis.)

Peace.

(Sorry for the double-post, but I had to get my new signature line up and running.)

[StarvingButStrong]

That's just the set up. Inside there's a long list of supposed prohecies and the verses where they were "fulfilled". Then there's the bit about prophecies concerning his "second coming". I swear I've never seen a card wo so much text.




Out of curiosity, if you still have the card around, could you look on the back and see if it was made by/for/copyrighted by Guidepost, Inc? Because it sounds depressingly like the Christmas cards my mother sent out for EIGHT CONSECUTIVE YEARS.

The publishers of Guidepost magazine (a little non-denominational Christian magazine, full of stories of happy coincidences that they relate as evidence of answered prayers) also manufacture a whole lot of other "CHRISTIAN" (yes, all caps are suitable) items, most especially CHRISTMAS cards. They start advertising those in the June issue or so, with handy postage paid blowins.

My mother, who was entering the first stages of Alzheimers Disease though we hadn't yet realized that, send back EACH AND EVERY one of those cards, month after month, each time ordering one or two or three boxes, each with 25 copies of a super religious card. Those particular ones had the bible verses of the Christmas story plus 'pull quotes' from various Christmas hymns.

Anyway, by the time they stopped advertising that year she had bought over 300 of the cards -- never mind that she never sent more than 20 or so cards each year.


Toss the rest out? Let them go to waste? Heavens, no. Mom is a thrifty Yankee, born and bred. She just stored them away and mailed them out the next year. And the one after that, and the one after that...As I said, I got them for at least eight years, before she moved to the home and the cards were 'lost.'


So, buckup! Maybe you aren't specially chosen, maybe all of their friends and relatives are getting the exact same cards.

Either that, or they have 24 more copies of the cards earmarked JUST FOR YOU.
:eek:

[Shaolinrabbit]

No offense, Homebrew, but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs? It's not like you have some innate right to the protection of your "beliefs bubble". People that you associate with have their own beliefs and understandings of the world, obviously among your aunt's beliefs there's this thing about being preachy with relatives she thinks are going to hell.

I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there's no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you'd be surprised.

If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note "I'm glad" inside and sign your name.

Being upset, or even annoyed, because your overtly religious aunt sent you an overtly over the top religious card is stupidity. Of course she did, were you thinking it would be "frosty" this year? "Rudolph"? If it annoys you, tell your aunt to stop sending you shit in the mail.

You know what annoys me? Pussies and morons, grow the fuck up. See how I did that? Now grow a pair and call your aunt on the phone.

[Loopydude]

Homebrew:

Perhaps on the anniversary of Charles Darwin's birthday you could give them the gift of a year's subscription to Skeptical Enquirer (http://www.csicop.org/si/).

[Loopydude]

Hee-heee, Inquirer, sorry. Boy, that was an unintentional oxymoron.

[Dog80]

For anyone interested, here's the whole text:

http://www.drmikebagwell.org/LadiesPage%20Archives.html
Hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus the Messiah was born in Bethlehem, God has spoken many prophecies about His coming. He spoke them through men like Moses, David, Isaiah and Micah. In order for Jesus to be the true Messiah, He had to fulfill every prophecy that was ever spoken and written about said Messiah ... AND HE DID! Every single one!

HERE ARE JUST A FEW ...

* He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) ... and He was (Matthew 1:18-25)!

* He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) ... and He was (Matthew 2:1-6)!

* He would heal the sick and make people whole (Isaiah 5:3) ... and He did (Matthew 8)!

* He would be crucified (Psalm 22:14-17) ... and He was (Matthew 27:31)!

* He would die for our sins (Isaiah 53) ... and He did (John 1:29, John 11:49-52)!

* He would be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10) ... and He was (Matthew 28:1-10)!

The many prophecies about Jesus' Second Coming have not yet been fulfilled ... but one day they will be! Every single one!

In celebration of His birth, His life, His death, His resurrection ... and in anticipation of all that we have to look forward to when He returns ... HAVE A WONDERFUL GLORIOUS WORSHIPFUL REVERENT CHRISTMAS SEASON!

Jesus says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, Which is and Which was and Which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

[Miller]

No offense, Homebrew, but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs?

Basic civility?

[Polycarp]

No offense, Homebrew, but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs? It's not like you have some innate right to the protection of your "beliefs bubble". People that you associate with have their own beliefs and understandings of the world, obviously among your aunt's beliefs there's this thing about being preachy with relatives she thinks are going to hell.

I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there's no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you'd be surprised.

If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note "I'm glad" inside and sign your name.

Being upset, or even annoyed, because your overtly religious aunt sent you an overtly over the top religious card is stupidity. Of course she did, were you thinking it would be "frosty" this year? "Rudolph"? If it annoys you, tell your aunt to stop sending you shit in the mail.

You know what annoys me? Pussies and morons, grow the fuck up. See how I did that? Now grow a pair and call your aunt on the phone.

Well, humanists should do it out of basic courtesy. Christians should do it based on Christ's teachings on how to behave toward others. Jews should do it based on the Law that Christ got it from. Confucians should do it because they too hold to the Golden Rule. Muslims should do it because of Allah's command about how to deal with others in the Qu'ran.

Obnoxious idiots, obviously, need not do it. But neither should we give a shit what they say, either.

[Guinastasia]

Well, the South Park folks haven't got that one up yet, but how about a Santa Cthulhu (http://www.needcoffee.com/html/toys/scthulhu.htm)?


Does this count? (http://www.illwillpress.com)

[Shaolinrabbit]

Basic civility?

I think what he should be asking for here is basic civility, not for someone to respect his beliefs. It's safe to say that he doesn't respect hers any more than she respects his, nor are either likely to do so, but out of personal respect for each other, he should lobby for kind politeness. Not necessarily by kicking her in the cunt(Religiously), as my previous post may have indicated in it's tongue in cheek manner, but by simple straightforwardness, with a touch of harshness held in a humorous manner.

For example, a phone call or email that indicates, politely, that if she stop sending him such cards, he promises not to think of Jesus when he masturbates anymore.

My Aunt Roberta typically sends things like this to me, and I have to say, I admire her diligence in the face of years of comments I've made about various Bishops and Popes. They have slowed greatly over the years though, and I'm happy to say that this Christmas I received a Santa card, with an enclosed article about a moose and a taxi driver that was entirely non-religious.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Or he could send them a card with an adorable li'l squirrel squeaking, "Hail, Satan!", wishing them a Woodland Critter Christmas to celebrate the birth of the Antichrist, Devourer of Worlds.

This is the best business plan I've heard in years.

The closest I've come to purchasing a Christmas card was awhile ago when I lived in an apartment previously occupied by a Dentist. He got a dental catalog that featured a card showing a rat wearing a Santa hat, riding a tube of toothpaste like a witch on a broom. The toothpaste oozed in candycane colors from the tube, and spelled out "Merry Christmas!" in cursive.

The concept of a rat and spilt toothpaste representing Christmas was adorably repulsive, and I almost bought a couple dozen of the cards to send out to friends. Sadly, they were terribly expensive.

I'd shell out big bucks for the Satan-squirrel card, though.

Daniel

[Miller]

Shaolinrabbit: Respecting other people's beliefs is basic civility. Nothing you've described in this thread remotely resembles either.

[Shaolinrabbit]

Well, humanists should do it out of basic courtesy. Christians should do it based on Christ's teachings on how to behave toward others. Jews should do it based on the Law that Christ got it from. Confucians should do it because they too hold to the Golden Rule. Muslims should do it because of Allah's command about how to deal with others in the Qu'ran.

Obnoxious idiots, obviously, need not do it. But neither should we give a shit what they say, either.

You can't respect a belief that you believe to be inherantly false, it defies the nature of respect. You can respect a person who adheres to their belief, and I think that's a more rational cause.

Some beliefs, by the way, are not respected by their nature typically, nor the people who believe them. Racists and Nazis spring immediately to mind. It's important to remember that a non-violent nazi believer isn't harming anyone with his beliefs per se, except perhaps emotionally.

A Christian, Muslim, or Jew may do the same, depending on how they interpret their beliefs. So can an atheist for that matter.

Originally posted by Miller
Respecting other people's beliefs is basic civility. Nothing you've described in this thread remotely resembles either.


I'm willing to be that I can name ten beliefs held by millions each that you don't respect out of civility, Miller.

And no, it's not basic civility, respect implies high esteem, regard, or other deference to belief, civility implies politeness, manners. They're two different things. An atheist, by nature, does not hold the belief in God in high regard, but they can be polite to someone who believes, and even respect the person themselves.

[Shaolinrabbit]

Also, as a note, you can be very polite to a racist or nazi, without respecting their beliefs.

It's foolish to assume that some beliefs deserve respect while others simply don't because some are "right" and some are "wrong". God can seem just as damaging and just as false as racial superiority or fascism. Doesn't mean you can't be polite.

[hajario]

I am a stone cold lifelong atheist and I've never sent a Holiday card in my life. My understanding is that many (most?) people buy their cards in a big old batch and send the same one to everyone. If that's the case with Auntie, I don't think that she did anything wrong. Why should she have to get a special card for one grump? If she bought that card especially for Homebrew, he does have reason to be upset, very good reason. I don't have enough information to put my rightous indignation in the correct direction.

Haj

[Maendosa]

Ok, so it's not exactly on topic, but it is to do with cards and offensive religious sentiments...

My brother and his wife (a young couple, 25 & 23) were killed in a car accident this summer. Of course my family got a large number of cards expressing sympathy and condolances. My family is also very devoutly mormon (I am not, leaving mormonism after being raised in it). One of the cards receieved was from my ex-husband's father, a devout mormon and a seminary teacher (teaches mormon 'religious studies' to high-school aged kids). One of the main beliefs of mormonism is that the most 'righteous' mormons get to go to the most wonderful of heavens after they die.

I know it's a lot of setup, but this card consisted of my ex-father-in-law declaring something along the lines of 'I'm jealous, they got let out of 'class' early!'.....

:rolleyes:

I was *this close* to removing the card from the mail when I opened it - what parent needs to be told that someone is JEALOUS that their child died AT 25 IN A HORRIFIC CAR ACCIDENT?!

Jesus, it STILL makes me fume when I think about it, 7 months later.

[Loopydude]

Jesus, it STILL makes me fume when I think about it, 7 months later.

But why? Don't you respect his beliefs?

[Shaolinrabbit]

But why? Don't you respect his beliefs?

While I'm tempted to give this a ;) for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still.

Her brother is dead 7 months ago, a little less bouncy perhaps?

[Maendosa]

While I'm tempted to give this a ;) for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still.

Her brother is dead 7 months ago, a little less bouncy perhaps?

Oh, I think, most of the time, I'm a tiny bit past the raw grief of it all. I can get the humor. Still, I'd no sooner think it's appropriate for him to 'celebrate' the death of my brother than I'd feel it was appropriate to send a card with the sentiment 'Don't cry, you can make more!' to a newly miscarried mother.

Homebrew, you have my understanding ;)

[Loopydude]

Shaolin, you're right, and Maendosa, I really don't mean to rub a raw wound. I talk about my "mother" a lot on this board, but, in fact, she's my stepmother. My real mother died of cancer when I was a kid, so I have some familiarity with the process of grieving a loved one's untimely demise. My guess, based on the absurdity of some folks' concept of "respect", is you'd know exactly what I meant. I got (and still do get, oddly enough) a fair amount of insulting religious pablum, doled out with predictable inanity, assuring me that my Mom is in "a better place". Idiots.

[SolGrundy]

Now, now, XJetgirlX is having a dramatic moment protecting the True Faith, why spoil her fun?
Actually, no, she never did.

Her posts attempted to make the point that the holiday season is a religious time for many people, and they send greetings with their religious beliefs on them to others, and that it's foolish for the recipient to get upset when they receive these cards and to interpret them as an attack on their own beliefs or lack thereof.

Now, I believe her arguments are misplaced in this thread, as the story Homebrew describes is clearly one of witnessing, the card did have ulterior motives attached, and he's had plenty of history with this relative that makes it clear that the card did have a hidden meaning. So it's a case of valid argument, wrong venue.

It's not defending Christianity, however. She never came down one way or the other in this thread about what her religious beliefs are, if any. And it was apparently a wasted argument on the OP, since the person who started a Pit thread on the topic has said a simple "Merry Christmas" card would've just been fine; he doesn't see why the message couldn't have been a genuine greeting but instead had to be a religious tirade.

In other words, it sounds to me like two people arguing at each other about practicing tolerance for other people's religious beliefs when they're both saying the same thing.

But don't let me stop anyone from using the thread as a pulpit for talking about the evils of Christianity, the ignorance of theists, the incompatibility of evolution and religion ( :rolleyes: ), and how the only acceptable recourse is to insult and demean other people's religious beliefs. I mean, why spoil their fun?

[Excalibre]

I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there's no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you'd be surprised.

If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note "I'm glad" inside and sign your name.
:rolleyes:

If you think this would be appropriate, I don't see how most of the other folks in this thread are ever going to come to an understanding with you. I don't like this notion that equates not being Christian with aggressive opposition to it. Homebrew's said nothing to indicate that he is hostile towards religious types at all, and he clearly indicated he's got no troubles with religious messages in cards. There's a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble. When you attack him for demanding the latter, you're fighting a strawman.

But like I said, if you think sending out greeting cards attempting to tear apart another's religion is a good idea, I can't imagine you'll get much company in that. I certainly would stop associating with anyone who sent out blasphemous or otherwise cruel Christmas cards. Basic respect for others' beliefs means not trying constantly to change them, and if you can't see your way to believing what you like and granting others the right to do so in peace, well, please don't put me on your Christmas card list.

[Shaolinrabbit]

:rolleyes:
If you think this would be appropriate, I don't see how most of the other folks in this thread are ever going to come to an understanding with you. I don't like this notion that equates not being Christian with aggressive opposition to it.


First of all, it's a thread about a Christmas card, and second that's not agressive opposition, and third, way to be a lazy asshole and just pick one post to single out about what kind of card to send back. Like Cthulu Santa and the Anti-Christ were really appropriate by your standards, but I totally crossed the line.

Did you actually take a look at what my card suggestions said? The atheistic card might actually fall into Homebrew's honest belief about the universe, and might make a decent Christmas card if you put some thought into it. The Easter card was hostile, and I credit Homebrew with enough intellect to decide whether it's appropriate to send to his aunt, or whether that would be too much.

If you don't get that concept, or the obvious lack of seriousness in that suggestion, I don't care if you come to an understanding with me. You may have to learn to accept the fact that some things might be beyond your understanding.

If the Easter card concept was blasphemous, insulting to anyone in particular's religion or otherwise in poor taste, I'd like to remind them that I'm under no obligation to like Jesus. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the atheist belief system, in which Jesus was a liar, all his apostles were liars, and they conspired to ruin everything fun forever, and have nearly succeeded*.

Also, under my freedom of belief concept, they are welcome to believe that I'm not a nice person, and not like me either. For the record, I'm a living breathing human being, and Jesus died 2000 years ago, so there's little possibility of hurting his feelings, and, if as Christians suppose, he is in fact sitting at a throne waiting to toss me into a pit, I think the hostility is doubly warranted.


Homebrew's said nothing to indicate that he is hostile towards religious types at all, and he clearly indicated he's got no troubles with religious messages in cards. There's a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble. When you attack him for demanding the latter, you're fighting a strawman.


No I'm not, yes he does, and yes he did. He did, in fact, have a problem with a religious message in a card. He got a religious card, he had a problem. Fight back the stupid and take control again.

There's a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble, yes. But say you've got a highly religious Aunt, who preaches all year, and then Christmas comes along... SUPRISE!! OMG! It's a highly religious card! That's not a strawman, it's incompetance. It's what I'd expect from Donald Rumsfeld after he gets his card from W.

My suggestion, however painful it may have been to you, was not overly serious. I was simply making a point that perhaps he should edge out his atheistic tendencies a bit more, and have fun with it.

FTR, sending an atheistic holiday card to everyone isn't hostile, blasphemous or wrong, it's what I believe inside a card. Like it's just so fucking ugly to try and send that out to people. Start not associating with me early, and STFU.

[Shaolinrabbit]

* This is the authors personal opinion, and in no way reflects the conspiracy of international atheism, their views, or the views of any select individuals beyond the author's own scope.

[gobear]

In other words, it sounds to me like two people arguing at each other about practicing tolerance for other people's religious beliefs when they're both saying the same thing.

Well, no, they're not saying thew same thing. Homebrew doesn't want to get preached at, and XJetgirlX is saying that he's wrong to feel that way.

But don't let me stop anyone from using the thread as a pulpit for talking about the evils of Christianity, the ignorance of theists, the incompatibility of evolution and religion ( :rolleyes: ), and how the only acceptable recourse is to insult and demean other people's religious beliefs. I mean, why spoil their fun?
[/quote]
Nobody, not even me, has said anything of the sort in this thread. Besides, isn't Christmas the time for building snowmen and not strawmen?

[RTFirefly]

While I'm tempted to give this a ;) for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still. You're right that respecting a person doesn't necessarily equate to respecting their beliefs.

But respecting a person DOES imply treating them with respect. And that, in turn, almost invariably implies treating them with basic politeness and courtesy. (The exceptions are stuff like not bothering to ask before you push someone out of the way of an oncoming car. If we exclude stuff like that, we can ditch the 'almost'.)

On another note: Homebrew, while they didn't get these cards at Hallmark, could they have been right off the rack at the local "Christian" bookstore? If that's the case, then they may not have had to seek these cards out. That still doesn't make the cards any more pleasant, but at least they wouldn't have gone nearly so far out of their way to be unpleasant.

[Homebrew]

In another note: Homebrew, while they didn't get these cards at Hallmark, could they have been right off the rack at the local "Christian" bookstore? If that's the case, then they may not have had to seek these cards out. That still doesn't make the cards any more pleasant, but at least they wouldn't have gone nearly so far out of their way to be unpleasant.I don't go into those, so I have no idea if they carry this type of card. I guess it's possible that it off the shelf instead of ordered directly from dayspring.com (the card maker). It's still annoying. BTW, Dog80 is correct about the full text.

[CrazyCatLady]

Most people send out cards that express their personalities and viewpoints. That's why I can count on getting a cat card from one friend, something darkly funny and sarcastic from another, and something rather religious from a third. It's just their personalities coming through. And (for good or ill) your aunt's card is just her personality and viewpoint coming through. She's a zealot, and witnessing is her way of life.

Assuming, of course, that she did like most people and bought a big ol' box and sent everybody the exact same thing. I mean, if she's sending all the Christians on her list the same card, it's really reaching to call it an attempt to convert people or an attack on your atheism. Most of the recipients are, after all, already converted, and it seems unlikely she'd buy and send a whole box of these things just on your account.

In such a case, the rant basically comes down to either you not liking your aunt's personality or you being pissy that she didn't go buy you a special non-preachy card. The former is perfectly understandable. Everyone's got a relative or twelve whose personality they don't much care for (Uncle Jimmy, the whole family is looking at you), and zealots tend to be extra irritating. But to be irritated that someone for being who and what they are...it's human, but not really all that reasonable, ya know? The latter situation--well, I just don't think you're that full of yourself, so we won't talk about that one.

On the other hand, if she did indeed go get just this one especially for you, then pit away. She's an asshole of the assholiest ilk and needs an attitude adjustment right upside the head.

[Miller]

* This is the authors personal opinion, and in no way reflects the conspiracy of international atheism, their views, or the views of any select individuals beyond the author's own scope.

I just want to re-emphasize this point. Keep in mind, folks, that Shaolinrabbit's definitions of atheism (and, for that matter, respect and civility) are his and his alone.

[Shaolinrabbit]

I just want to re-emphasize this point. Keep in mind, folks, that Shaolinrabbit's definitions of atheism (and, for that matter, respect and civility) are his and his alone.

Wrong again, Miller, my definition of atheism can be summed up rather simply:

"There is no God."

That's pretty standard. My definitions of respect and civility are both in the dictionary, I suggest you pick up a copy.

My behavior however, is mine alone. I respect what I choose, and I am civil when I choose.

[Shaolinrabbit]

My definitions of respect and civility are both in the dictionary, I suggest you pick up a copy.

Sorry, I meant they jibe with the dictionary. I didn't write websters. :D

[SolGrundy]

Well, no, they're not saying thew same thing. Homebrew doesn't want to get preached at, and XJetgirlX is saying that he's wrong to feel that way.
Homebrew said he didn't want to get preached at, but that a simple Merry Christmas card would've been fine; in other words (as I interpreted it), he doesn't agree with the religion but would not interpret a simple expression of the religion as such a threat. I don't think anyone in the thread is saying that witnessing to someone who doesn't want to hear it is ever appropriate, no matter what time of year. So there's no excusing the aunt's behavior. But I can, for example, receive someone's wishing me a simple Happy Hannukkah without feeling the need to counter with anti-Judaism sentiments.

I interpreted XJETGIRLX as objecting to that type of behavior and a plea for more religious tolerance from both sides. As I said, I believe her basic argument was valid but it was directed at the wrong person, because Homebrew already was showing as much religious tolerance as he should be expected to. Whatever the case, she was not defending The One True Faith, as you accused her.

Nobody, not even me, has said anything of the sort in this thread. Besides, isn't Christmas the time for building snowmen and not strawmen?
Of course not. Cute chipmunks that say "Hail Satan" are in no way implying an insult to Christianity, nor are they in any way implying that a religious message is meaningless cloying glurge. Neither was the suggestion to send back a Darwin card implying that Christianity and evolution are completley mutually exclusive. Must've been my mistake.

And that's all I can say and still honor the terms of our agreement. Merry Christmas, everyone! Take that sentiment however you want.

[Dangerosa]

Sorry, I meant they jibe with the dictionary. I didn't write websters. :D

Civility, like in manners, right? See I was brought up that religion and politics were not well mannered topics for casual conversation (or greeting cards). So even "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" (have one of those from a relative) is boarderline poor manners to send.

You want to wish people joy for the holidays THEY celebrate. It isn't about you. Which is why I don't wish my Jewish friends Merry Christmas, even though I celebrate it. Far as I can tell, not much Merry about eating Chinese while 90% of the American people celebrate around you. Seems rather....ill spritied....to wish some a happy holiday they don't celebrate.

[Liberal]

Wrong again, Miller, my definition of atheism can be summed up rather simply:

"There is no God."That isn't even a doxastic statement.

[Liberal]

Far as I can tell, not much Merry about eating Chinese while 90% of the American people celebrate around you. Seems rather....ill spritied....to wish some a happy holiday they don't celebrate.I agree with you quite often, but disagree here. A day need not be celebrated to merit a wish for happiness. I don't celebrate the Chinese New Year, but I certainly would appreciate a wish that I be happy on that day.

[Shaolinrabbit]

That isn't even a doxastic statement.

Perhaps not, but I believe it. ;)

[Desmostylus]

That isn't even a doxastic statement.What an amazingly manustupratory observation.

[Polycarp]

Perhaps not, but I believe it. ;)

And that, of course, was one -- which was Lib's point.

[Dangerosa]

I agree with you quite often, but disagree here. A day need not be celebrated to merit a wish for happiness. I don't celebrate the Chinese New Year, but I certainly would appreciate a wish that I be happy on that day.

Let's see if I can put it differently. On my birthday people send me birthday cards. I don't send them birthday cards wishing them to have a nice day on my birthday. I don't have a birthday party for myself (Brainiac4 does, I spent six years trying to teach him it was poor manners before I gave up - he'd disagree that I've given up as I continue to "remind" him every year, he doesn't care, though he now puts the disclaimer on the invites that "its just a party I happen to hold near my birthday").

Greetings are about the recipient, not the sender. Which is why we say "How are you?" To send a card even vaguely evangelical (unless you happen to know the recipient shares your beliefs) is about you and your beliefs, not about them - regardless of how much you try and justify it by saying you are trying to "save their soul." And frankly, I really hope there isn't a soul out there that can be saved by the text on a greeting card.

[Shaolinrabbit]

And that, of course, was one -- which was Lib's point.

I know, and I responded deliberately. The point of the original statement in quotes, rather than simple text was that it was ascribed to an unknown speaker, making it by nature doxastic. I could simply say, there is no God, then being ascribed to myself, and it would also be by nature of the reader's interpretation doxastic. I chose, however, the general ambiguously ascribed statement as a statement which I agree with.

Both the statements "There is a God." and "I am God" would not be technically doaxastic statements, but would be understood to be by the person reading or hearing those statements.

To allay any further confusion in this matter, I will withdraw my previous definition and supply the following:

Atheist: Those who do not believe in the existence of deity or deities.

[Shaolinrabbit]

What an amazingly manustupratory observation.


:D

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

What an amazingly manustupratory observation. Really? I found it rather floccillatory, actually.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Evangelical cards seek to win
A depraved son of Adam from sin
But alas! The result
Is more likely insult
Than redeeming the targeted kin.


And may you all have just the sort of holiday you (a) desire or (b) deserve. :p :cool: :p

[Excalibre]

First of all, it's a thread about a Christmas card, and second that's not agressive opposition, and third, way to be a lazy asshole and just pick one post to single out about what kind of card to send back. Like Cthulu Santa and the Anti-Christ were really appropriate by your standards, but I totally crossed the line.

Did you actually take a look at what my card suggestions said? The atheistic card might actually fall into Homebrew's honest belief about the universe, and might make a decent Christmas card if you put some thought into it. The Easter card was hostile, and I credit Homebrew with enough intellect to decide whether it's appropriate to send to his aunt, or whether that would be too much.
Shaolinrabbit, if you think your "views about the universe" are appropriate material for greeting cards, you've got something wrong with your brain. I don't care how honest the views expressed within may be, you don't get to use greeting cards as soapboxes. If you do it anyway, you're an asshole.


If you don't get that concept, or the obvious lack of seriousness in that suggestion, I don't care if you come to an understanding with me. You may have to learn to accept the fact that some things might be beyond your understanding.
So you're saying that if I disagree with you, I must be stupid? Way to avoid having to actually justify your arguments.


If the Easter card concept was blasphemous, insulting to anyone in particular's religion or otherwise in poor taste, I'd like to remind them that I'm under no obligation to like Jesus. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the atheist belief system, in which Jesus was a liar, all his apostles were liars, and they conspired to ruin everything fun forever, and have nearly succeeded*.
No, you don't get to insult or condemn another's religion - especially not on a card you send to commemorate one of their own holidays. If you really believe that Jesus and the Apostles were evil liars, then you're either completely fucking ignorant of what they taught, or you're so amazingly immature that you feel that anyone who doesn't promote your own belief system is inherently evil. That's exactly the kind of thing you'd go around condemning when fundamentalist Christians do it, which indicates that you're probably a hypocrite too. Congrats.

And if you felt the need to share that with someone on a Christian holiday in a greeting card, then you're morally on a level with things I scrape off my shoe. Merry Christmas, asswipe.

And per his later post, please don't assume that every athiest shares this fucker's beliefs. I certainly don't.


No I'm not, yes he does, and yes he did. He did, in fact, have a problem with a religious message in a card. He got a religious card, he had a problem. Fight back the stupid and take control again.
No, he had a problem with an evangelical greeting card, as has been established over and over. I know that five syllables is probably a lot for you, but there's a difference between the expression of a religious sentiment and the attempt to browbeat those who don't share your own beliefs.


There's a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble, yes. But say you've got a highly religious Aunt, who preaches all year, and then Christmas comes along... SUPRISE!! OMG! It's a highly religious card! That's not a strawman, it's incompetance. It's what I'd expect from Donald Rumsfeld after he gets his card from W.
What? Did this make sense in your mind as you wrote it, or were you just stringing words together and praying they made grammatical sentences? Back to 8th grade composition class for you!


FTR, sending an atheistic holiday card to everyone isn't hostile, blasphemous or wrong, it's what I believe inside a card. Like it's just so fucking ugly to try and send that out to people. Start not associating with me early, and STFU.
Sending an athiestic holiday card - as in one that specifically mention's that there is no god - is inherently rubbing up against that whole "evangelical" thing that others have tried to explain. Since there's no useful holidays or symbolism to draw on - no reindeer or Christmas trees or wise men to represent the holiday - there's no way to do it without specifically stating that you don't believe in God. Stick that in a Christmas card, and it's going to come across as an aggressive attempt to browbeat someone else into sharing your beliefs, just like the OP's aunt.

I know you got told a lot of times growing up that what you believe is important. So let me let you and everyone else in on something: What you believe is not important to anyone but yourself. There is a legal right to express what you believe, but there's no protections for it within the realm of interpersonal relations. Expressing what Shaolinrabbit here believes will get him (rightly) branded as an asshole. Doing it in a greeting card in place of offering warm wishes for the holidays makes you so socially defective that there's probably no hope for you.

At any rate, Shaolinrabbit, I won't bother with any holiday wishes since chances are you've alienated everyone you know with your attitudes. Have a cold winter.

[gobear]

Just a thought. . .

My baby and I are enjoying mulled wine and Fiona Apple singing "Across The Universe." I have no quarrel with anyone on this Christmas Eve, and I wish all of you happiness in any way you find it.

And a special hug goes to Sol Grundy. Jah Rastafari knows I irritate the shit out of him and vice versa, and yet I think he totally rocks. I like his fierceness in defending himself and his determination to live his life on his own terms. Good for him.

Peace and blowjobs to all.

[SolGrundy]

::sniff:: Non-denominational tidings of fellatio in the BBQ Pit on Christmas Eve. It's beautiful.

And in the spirit of the season, I'll concede that the only reason gobear irritates the shit out of me like no other poster can, is that there's a little kernel of truth to some of the things he accuses me of. And if that's not detante, I don't know what is.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everyone!

[Polycarp]

And as gobear and Sol Grundy achieve detente (perhaps detente in de pants? ;)), may all my Doper friends truly find in this season some peace on earth and good will towards all people -- because that's the point behind Christmas originally, the gift of someone special given out of love.

[Priam]

...

This truly must be a blessed day. A Pit thread with a happy ending? Say it ain't fucking so!


:cool: ;)

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Fuckin' aye!

[Miller]

[Tiny Tim]God fuckin' bless us, every one of us motherfuckers.[/Tiny Tim]

[Liberal]

Atheist: Those who do not believe in the existence of deity or deities.Do you believe that there is a substantive difference between ~B(x) and B(~x)? In other words, can an atheist also be someone who believes in the existence of no deity or deities?

[Chotii]

This is something of a hijack, but a church down the street from me has a 'holiday play' every Christmas season. The neighbor ladies all go. And so of course they invited me. I'm not a Christian, but I didn't mind seeing a Christmas theme play, and it was in fact quite nice. They even serve dessert during intermission. But after the play was over, the minister got up and began a very long-winded sermon...which I had not signed up for. I mean, hadn't we just watched an evangelical themed play for an hour and a half? I had no idea there would be a long hellfire sermon plus altar call too. I politely declined the next year and the neighbor ladies have never invited me again. False advertising. I hate false advertising. Of course it's a church, of course they have sermons, but they could've told people it was a 'play, plus sermon afterward'.

[SolGrundy]

This truly must be a blessed day. A Pit thread with a happy ending? Say it ain't fucking so!
Sorry, I guess I got carried away. Uh... who the fuck listens to Fiona Apple? She sucks!

[Logicalkitten]

[Tiny Tim]God fuckin' bless us, every one of us motherfuckers.[/Tiny Tim]
The formerely living Tiny Tim would never say that!
Can you imagine?

[Logicalkitten]

Just a thought. . .

My baby and I are enjoying mulled wine /////// Jah Rastafari knows .

Whats mulled wine? Are you really a Rasta? :cool:
Have a Happy Soltice, you all.

[LilyoftheValley]

Peace and blowjobs to all.

:dubious: This female wonders: Is this what they mean when they say Christmas is about giving, not receiving?

[Miller]

Sorry, I guess I got carried away. Uh... who the fuck listens to Fiona Apple? She sucks!

Don't make me come over there! I could take or leave Fiona Apple, but her cover of "Across the Universe" is fucking sublime.

Whereas Sublime's cover of "Fucking Fiona Apple" is only so-so.

[gobear]

Logicalkitten: To make mulled wine, combine 1 bottle of yummy red wine (I prefer Yellowtail Shiraz) with in chopped lemon, 1 chopped orange, 1/2 tsp nut meg, 2 cloves, 1/4 cup sugar (or Splenda, which is what i use), and 1 cinnamon stick. Heat over the stove in a saucepan on medium until the mixture just starts to steam.

And no, I'm not a Rasta, although I am an ardent fan of 70s reggae.

Sol Grundy: I won't vouch for Ms. Apple's entire oeuvre, but her cover of "Across the Universe" is indeed fuckin' sublime. I really do, despite our differences, think the world of you. You have a generous soul, a sensitive and thoughtful nature, you're an intelligent man who thinks deeply about the woirld and his place in it, and you're hot as mortal sin to boot.

LilyoftheValley, I'm gay, so for me blowjobs are about giving as well as recieving, but I wish you and yours deliriously joyful sex acts of the season that will pleasure you in any way you like best.

Liberal: Go play your word games someplace else. You know what atheism means, so cease the provocation and have a glass of wine.

Happy New Year to all!

[Desmostylus]

Happy New Year to all!Bit premature, doncha think?

[gobear]

Bit premature, doncha think?

Why? The New Year is on its way, so why not wish people a happy one? After all,we say "Merry Christmas" during the entire season, do we not?

[Desmostylus]

After all,we say "Merry Christmas" during the entire season, do we not?Actually, no. Not here, anyway. This is no big deal, but I didn't realise that you guys did that.

The first time I said "Merry Christmas" to anyone this year, and the first time anyone said it to me was on Friday, Christmas Eve.

Someone said "Happy New Year" to me today, but the full sentence was "In case I don't see you before then, Happy New Year". :)

[Liberal]

Liberal: Go play your word games someplace else. You know what atheism means, so cease the provocation and have a glass of wine.Lordy, even during a time when you're flinging out drunken glad tidings to all and sundry, you cannot stop yourself from taking a jab at me. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to lash out at it like a redneck barking about gay marriage destroying America. ~B(x) and B(~x) are fundamentally different statements.

[gobear]

Lordy, even during a time when you're flinging out drunken glad tidings to all and sundry, you cannot stop yourself from taking a jab at me. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have to lash out at it like a redneck barking about gay marriage destroying America. ~B(x) and B(~x) are fundamentally different statements.

I understand the statements; what you fail to understand is that the thread was turning amicable and you had to come in starting trouble. If you want to debate the definition of atheism, start your own thread, don't hijack this one.

[Liberal]

I understand the statements; what you fail to understand is that the thread was turning amicable and you had to come in starting trouble. If you want to debate the definition of atheism, start your own thread, don't hijack this one.Contrary to what you might think, just because you plop your ass down somewhere doesn't mean you're the new owner. Look out your window. See all those bipedal creatures? Those are "other people". I responded to a statement made by someone who isn't you. Now that you've let out your big fart, why don't you just move along?

[gobear]

And FTR, nonexistence of belief in X (~B(x) and belief in the nonexistence of X (B(~x) are only different in terms, not in substance. To a layman, "I don't believe in Jesus's existence" and "I believe Jesus does not exist" are identical in meaning. Sure, there's a difference in the statements' denotation, but this is not a formal logic debating society, so keep your angels'-dancing-on-the heads-ofpins arguments to yourself, or at least in a more appropriate forum.

And you may want to consider who you condescend to next time. You're not nearly as intelligent as you think you are.

[Liberal]

And FTR, nonexistence of belief in X (~B(x) and belief in the nonexistence of X (B(~x) are only different in terms, not in substance.Submoronic. You're like those guys in math class who didn't understand the difference between subtraction and negation.


And you may want to consider who you condescend to next time.Whom.

[gobear]

Oh, and one more thing--until you can restrain yourself from snapping off strings of obscenities at the slightest provocation, you might also wish to shut up with the Jesus talk. You set a spectacularly bad example of Christian behavior, and your incessant claims to spiritual superiority ring false, like sounding brass or tinkling cymbals. Before you spout off more about God and sneer at those who don't swallow your use of logical notation as a bludgeon, I urge you to meditate on Matthew 7:2-5.

[gobear]

Submoronic. You're like those guys in math class who didn't understand the difference between subtraction and negation.


And I'm right. The terms are different but theree's no real difference in between them in the common understanding of your average speaker. You don't seem to understand that pedantry isn't wisdom, and your insufferable egoism is not of Jesus.

Whom.
You miss the point. "Whom" is correct ("to whom" is better), but nobody says it anymore. It's a dying bit of English that has outlived its purpose. Again, you think pedantry shows intelligence, when it portrays quite the reverse.

[Liberal]

And I'm right. The terms are different but theree's no real difference in between them in the common understanding of your average speaker. You don't seem to understand that pedantry isn't wisdom, and your insufferable egoism is not of Jesus.Frankly, I consider the man who presumes his presence is required in a discussion that does not concern him to be egoistic.


You miss the point. "Whom" is correct ("to whom" is better), but nobody says it anymore. It's a dying bit of English that has outlived its purpose. Again, you think pedantry shows intelligence, when it portrays quite the reverse.So says the man who berates me with picayune and moralistic speeches about pedantry.

[gobear]

Frankly, I consider the man who presumes his presence is required in a discussion that does not concern him to be egoistic.


So says the man who berates me with picayune and moralistic speeches about pedantry.

Dude, it's the holidays. Drop the 'tude and get happy.

[Liberal]

Dude, it's the holidays. Drop the 'tude and get happy.:D That's like slapping a man and telling him to stop blushing. When you take the 'tude away, it will be gone.

[spectrum]

He can vent all he likes. I'm still free to think him an asshole for bitching about somebody trying to be nice.

Religious witnessing is not nice. It's judgmental, arrogant, hateful and evil. Fuck all proselytizers.

[Miller]

Submoronic. You're like those guys in math class who didn't understand the difference between subtraction and negation.

I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world "submoronic," since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between "I don't believe in Jesus's existence" and "I believe Jesus does not exist." And I have to admit, I'm not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.

[gobear]

I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world "submoronic," since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between "I don't believe in Jesus's existence" and "I believe Jesus does not exist." And I have to admit, I'm not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.

Essentially, Lib's li'l formal logic operators indicate the difference between weak atheism (I don't believe in X deity, that is it's not proven to me so I don't believe) and strong atheism (I believe that no deity does or can exist). That Lib thinks this is significant to anyone but himself is telling. He has long since lost the ability to talk to people where they are and communicate with people meaningfully.

[Kalhoun]

I don't see how giving someone a card (that they can do with what they please) is 'shoving' your religion down someone's throat.

Christ almighty, I understand that he's not religious, but you can't dictate how other people celebrate their religious holidays. If his family wants to send out religious holiday cards, more power to 'em. If he doesn't agree with the sentiment, he can drop it in the trash - no skin off his back.
It doesn't sound like a greeting. It sounds like a hail Mary last effort to recruit the one godless heathen they haven't been able to convert! Kee-rist! It's heavier than a Sunday sermon! No greeting. It's a soapbox opportunity. Ick.

[pulykamell]

I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world "submoronic," since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between "I don't believe in Jesus's existence" and "I believe Jesus does not exist." And I have to admit, I'm not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.

Ditto here. While mathematically I understand the difference between the two statements,language is NOT math. While I know the negative of a negative is a positive, I also know that "I ain't got no money" is NOT trying to say "I have money."

While logicians may have fun playing their semantic games, no sane user of the English language makes a functional distinction between "I don't believe that X exists" and "I believe that X does not exist." Repeat: language is not math, and does not follow formal rules of logic.

[Homebrew]

That Lib thinks this is significant to anyone but himself is telling. He has long since lost the ability to talk to people where they are and communicate with people meaningfully.Why do you want to take a crutch from a lame man?

;)