Sex during menstruation

There is Jewish Halacha (sp?) forbidding sexual relations during a woman's menstruation. I assume this has some basis in the Old Testament. I also have read that some medical researchers (Orthodox Jewish researchers, notably) have made correlations pointing to a decreased statistical incidence of cervical cancer among Orthodox Jewish women, who presumably follow this halachic rule.

My question is, why would sexual activity during menstruation increase a woman's risk for cancer of the cervix? Or are these studies just exaggerated to prove a religious point?

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"Anything is peaceful from one thousand, three hundred and fifty-three feet."

My guess would be the perils of interpreting correlational research. The sample of men in those studies would also be likely to be circumcised, and there have been some studies correlating a circumcised partner with lower incidence of cervical cancer. (Presumably due to a lower risk of STDs). Or it could be some other factor common to that group of people (e.g., fewer sexual partners.)

correlation doesn't prove causation

yeah that and 85% of North Americans' that have a brain tumor had cereal for breakfast.

"Religious considerations aside", I don't see intercourse during menstruation as a big issue.
Both my ex-wife and one of my ex-girlfriends enjoyed it a lot (I'm not sure about others).
They said it relieved their cramps, relaxed them, and was very sensual. Who am I to argue, being generous by nature? :)
If you have reason to be concerned about STD's, use a condom.


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Work like you don't need the money.....
Love like you've never been hurt.....
Dance like nobody's watching! Source???

Just what the world needs MG. "Got cramps honey?" "Sex'll cure it!"

>>"Religious considerations aside", I don't see intercourse during menstruation as a big issue.
Both my ex-wife and one of my ex-girlfriends enjoyed it a lot (I'm not sure about others).
They said it relieved their cramps, relaxed them, and was very sensual. Who am I to argue, being generous by nature?
If you have reason to be concerned about STD's, use a condom. <<

All right; I dated a gentile, and we tried it during my period, and I have to tell you, I hated it.

First of all, smells that usually turn me on made me gag instead, and second, I found it really uncomfortable. I remember wondering at the time whether women made the rules of Niddah: "Sorry Dear, I'm unclean tonight; you're on your own for dinner." Then she went off to play cards and drink margaritas with Yenta and Esther.

I suppose it's possible I was feeling guilty, and wasn't as relaxed as I could have been. I told myself over and over that sex during menstruation is forbidden to MEN, and he was a gentile, so the law didn't apply.

Anyway, it's not something I do anymore.

There are so many things that could correlate with Orthodox Sex--

Orthodox women have a slightly higher birthrate than the population at large in the US, and a hugely higher birthrate in Israel.

Condom use is higher in Jewish populations than in gantile populations, and the difference was greater before the pill. Don't ask me why.

Coitus Interruptus is NOT a form of birth control a Jew would use. It was pretty popular among gentiles, though, until word got around that it isn't very effective.

If older women, who had their children in the days when most people formula-fed their babies, were included, then the breastfeeding rates would be vastly higher, because Orthodox women would have breastfeed because it was kosher.

It is also true, as one poster said, that Orthodox women -- and men -- have fewer partners over their lifetimes. On average, anyway. My friend Nechama Sarah is personally making an effort to change that statistic. Oy! How many times her mother would die if she knew!

BTW, Lesbians have a VERY low rate of cervical cancer, almost as low as women who have never had sex.



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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Caveat: I am an Orthodox Jew, but I am attempting to be scientific in answering the question. Just thought I'd get that out of the way.

Why a lower rate of cancer for those who don't have sex during menstruation? Perhaps during menstruation it's easier for cancer-causing agents (whatever they may be) to enter the bloodstream?

And, BTW, you did spell Halacha correctly.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

I remember wondering at the time whether women made the rules of Niddah: "Sorry Dear, I'm unclean tonight; you're on your own for dinner." Then she went off to play cards and drink margaritas with Yenta and Esther.

I think that's exactly how the menstrual taboo got started...sort of. I remember hearing something about this on a radio program on the CBC some time ago. The theory goes like this: as humans developed a non-estrus based mating system, men started hanging around women all the time, because they were available to mate all the time. This is what the non-estrus-based system was supposed to do (keep men around so they'd presumably help out with kids) and it worked, but groups of prehistoric humans that practiced this strategy constantly would, over time, lose out, because the big game that could sustain a group over a long period of time was no longer hunted, because those kinds of hunts often took a significant period of time (like a week or so), and men didn't want to leave off on the boinking for a hunt, which was considerably more dangerous and less fun. Presumably, the women, sick and tired of eating rats and squirrels, would send the men off while they (the women) were menstruating, to hunt something worthwhile. A side effect of this would probably be the tendency of women who live in close quarters to have aligned cycles - it would benefit the group immeasurably to have most of the men able (or more to the point, willing) to go at the same time (combined effort, better hunting). Instituting a menstrual taboo wouldn't have been very difficult at all, given that humans are (quite sensibly) wary of their own blood.


Nifty, huh?

>>groups of prehistoric humans that practiced this strategy constantly would, over time, lose out, because the big game that could sustain a group over a long period of time was no longer hunted, because those kinds of hunts often took a significant period of time (like a week or so), and men didn't want to leave off on the boinking for a hunt, which was considerably more dangerous and less fun. Presumably, the women, sick and tired of eating rats and squirrels, would send the men off while they (the women) were menstruating, to hunt something worthwhile.<<

That would be nice if "big hunt" really sustained the group, but the truth is that hunter/gatherer societies actually get about 80% of their diet from the gatherer portion.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Not where I come from. In northern Canada, traditional native diets were about 75% meat, 25% vegetable matter. In the winter, there's not a hell of a lot of vegetables happening. The only available non-meat edible things kicking around are frozen berries and lichen and similar things - not nearly enough to make up the 80% of food you suggest. Moreover, the social constructs I described above probably were developed at least in part during various Ice Ages, meaning that climate conditions over much of the globe were similar to those currently found in northern Canada. It is highly unlikely, under those conditions, that 80% of anyone's diet would come from that which could be gathered. Hunting big animals would have been fairly crucial for many groups.

I'd say a bigger problem with this theory comes from common sense. I like sex. I also like to eat. Hence, I go to work, to get money so I can eat and have sex (well, the money isn't for sex.. you get the idea). It seems to me that if I was living in a cave, even with an ample supply of sex, I'd eventually get the hankerin' for some fillet o' mammoth and pull my pants up long enough to go spear a giant sloth or something.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

To get back to the original question -- since Orthodox Jews tend to marry other Orthodox Jews, I'd imagine they're fairly similar genetically. Maybe a lot of them have the magic combination of genes that makes them less susceptible to cancer. Or maybe they're simply less promiscuous, and therefore less likely to pick up the (sexually transmitted) virus that causes cervical cancer. It seems kinda silly to leap to the conclusion that sex during one's period has anything to do with it.

<<Not where I come from. In northern Canada, traditional native diets were about 75% meat, 25% vegetable matter. In the winter,
there's not a hell of a lot of vegetables happening. The only available non-meat edible things kicking around are frozen berries and
lichen and similar things - not nearly enough to make up the 80% of food you suggest. Moreover, the social constructs I described
above probably were developed at least in part during various Ice Ages, meaning that climate conditions over much of the globe
were similar to those currently found in northern Canada. It is highly unlikely, under those conditions, that 80% of anyone's diet
would come from that which could be gathered. Hunting big animals would have been fairly crucial for many groups.>>

Yes, but people who lived long before the Ice Age established the hunter/gather-mate-all-the-time thing.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

I figured a lot of men just wouldn't want to at that time -- bloody, ugh, who wants to go there. (Although in my own cae, I don't recall a guy declining the opportunity because of it.) Not so long ago, women weren't supposed to enjoy sex, and therefore their men didn't care about pleasing them, so it was just a chore for many women and they'd use their monthlies as an excuse to avoid it.

>>Not so long ago, women weren't supposed to enjoy sex, and therefore their men didn't care about pleasing them, so it was just a chore for many women and they'd use their monthlies as an excuse to avoid it.<<

Not true-- at least in Judaism. The man is SUPPOSED to please the woman. And we started the thread talking about Judaism.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Right you are, Rowan. Sorry about that. Shows how one can lose track of the original post after reading thru everything. I was generalizing, of course.

No sweat, Sycorax.

BTW, if anyone is interested, the expression "grass widow" refers to a woman whose husband has left her without legally divorcing her. Under Jewish law, the woman can't grant the divorce, only the man.

EXCEPT (and I can't remember exactly where the ruling is; CM? CK?) when the man has failed to fulfill her sexually.

I can just hear it:

"I'm not granting you a divorce, Ruth."

"Fine, Moyshe. I'll tell the Bet Din you can't keep it up to save your life."

"No! Anything but that! I'll give you a get! Is tomorrow morning soon enough?"


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Rowan:

Under Jewish law, the woman can't grant the divorce, only the man.

EXCEPT (and I can't remember exactly where the ruling is; CM? CK?) when the man has failed to fulfill her sexually.

I can't cite the specific page, but it's most likely in the Talmudic portion called Kesuvoth, which deals very much in obligations between husband and wife. Proper sexual fulfillment is one case in which the man can be forced by the court to grant his wife a divorce; lack of support in other ways (e.g., for food, shelter and clothes) or any sort of breach of the marriage contract were also ground for this.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

Blood flows out the cervix and it's slightly more sensitive during that period.

The more sexual partners and the earlier a woman starts sex [especially under 17] raises her chances for woman's risk
for cancer of the cervix more than boinking during her period.

But it's probably alright to do it as long as the wife doesn't find out. :-)

Let's cut to the chase here. Do you like sex during menstruation? Replies from only those who have tried it, please.
Men?
Women?

Me? Yeah, I liked it. Nice and warm.
Peace,
mangeorge

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Work like you don't need the money.....
Love like you've never been hurt.....
Dance like nobody's watching! Source???

mangeorge, yes I liked it very much. I have recieved it couple of times, and it just gets better time after time.

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Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

Don't like it. Too messy.

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

Definitely like it. Life's too short to waste, and I've noticed that my interest level is higher around that time anyway. (I'm female.)

I wouldn't say "like" or "dislike" - it's just slightly more messy. And I agree with Fretful, I'm usually a little more interested around that time.

It was okay back in the 70's early 80's. Once AIDS or HIV showed its ugly face, the blood put too much risk into it.

If one is married or is extremely confident the woman does not cheat or have any contact with blood products [nurses, docs, etc] then it might be worth taking the risk.

It's OK. A little messy, sometimes a little smelly, but somehow more intimate.

My wife says that the manifest symptoms of menstruation (cramps, etc.) go away for the whole cycle, with one encounter.


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"Anything is peaceful from one thousand, three hundred and fifty-three feet."

Right on Loco, you have discovered the sexual treasure box. Whenever a woman has cramps, just say 'sex'll' cure it! :-)

Tried it a few times, always at the female's insistance. There's a lesson to be learned about fooling around during that time of the month. Anyway, you wear a condom, set a towel down if you're worried and take it from there. Never noticed it to be too messy, just a little blood on the condom later. Well... you asked.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

"My wife says that the manifest symptoms of menstruation (cramps, etc.) go away for the whole cycle, with one encounter."
--El Mariachi Loco
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As I stated in an earlier post, my ex-wife and ex-girlfriend said the same.
Hey, us guys are here to help. No matter the sacrifice. :)

And don't listen to handy. :)
Peace,
mangeorge

>>Let's cut to the chase here. Do you like sex during menstruation? Replies from only those who have tried it, please.
Men?
Women?<<

I think I'm already on record as not liking it....


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Being on my period is like an instant libido-killer for me, so I've never actually had sex except for maybe the last day. I'm usually more in the mood the week before and the week after. So I guess you could count me in for not liking it.

>>I think I'm already on record as not liking it....<< --Rowan

<<Being on my period is like an instant libido-killer for me, so I've never actually had sex except for maybe the last day. I'm usually more in the mood the week before and the week after. So I guess you could count me in for not liking it.>> --Drain Bead

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty much in a bad mood for four days. Is not being in a foul mood a pre-requisite for being in the mood?


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Sorry, Drain Bead, I have no idea what <> is about. I C&P'd your whole last post (went BACK to check), and somehow it went poof.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

One Datapoint:

I don't object to sex during menstruation.

Certain activities get messier, and although you may be a touch reluctant to do them, you feel more "macho" to get over the reluctance.

Some women object, so you may have to find alternate points of entry or other outlets during those days.

Before I learned how to get the stains out, it seemed like the fool proof way to seduce a new lover was to put down brand new sheets. This seemed to guarantee not only an enthusiastic response but also that she would be having her period (all right, so this only happened twice, but that is a significant percentage of my "first times", and I thought I could see a pattern developing).

After I learned how to get the stains out (bleach), this did not work on the subsequent attempt -- much to my surprise, since the lady had been quite aggressive with me (kissing me vigorously when I thought I was just giving her a ride). She said I was "too easy", and she preferred taller guys anyway.

Male here...love it! Yes, even cunnilingus.
Some women have been reluctant. But once persuaded, they seem to enjoy it as much or more than I do.

Ok.. what started out as a serious question / discussion appears to have taken a turn toward the dark side.

Do we really need all the personal graphic details and seduction scenarios?

Ooops, sorry. Replying to mangeorge, I entirely lost track of the fact that this thread ostensibly dealt with cervical cancer. (The vague title didn't help either)

Without getting graphic or getting into my own preferences, I thought I'd mention that orgasm is an effective means of easing menstrual cramps. So if all else fails...