Yiddish

>Tzi redst di yidish, Rowan? Talk to me!! I need the practice.< --Olentzero

>>Taka, Ich sproyk'n a bissl Yiddish; Ich ken nisht leyn'n oider shrayb'n af Yiddish. Mein Doda Chana hot Yiddish fir a loshen irshten,
un zi sproyk'n af Yiddish mit di mishpacha, un Ich farsht'n gut, a nisht gedul sproyk'n.

Maybe I should take a class.

A gutn.<< --Rowan

>>>I, on the other hand, don't speak even a bit of Yiddish. I can't read or write it, either. But if what Rowan is writing is Yiddish, it is awfully similar to Swabian German.... (I didn't get "loshen irshten" or "mishpacha", but most of the rest was transparent).<<< --Jens

>>>>I'm of the opinion that Yiddish is a creole - given that it's been spoken for something like a thousand years in Central Europe. The existence of Ladino (was there an Italian version too?) seems to back me up on this one.

Here's the scenario - groups of Jews start wandering Europe and settling down in various places. They speak whatever it is they
speak at the time (Hebrew? Aramaic?) but they need to start interacting with the local yokels as well. So then we get a pidgin tongue - just enough to get by with daily business, then this pidgin grows and takes on its own life and becomes a creole.

Still, though, Yiddish kicks ass. I remember the first time I was able to read a couple sentences in script - a bigger thrill than
reading Russian.<<<< --Olentzero

Since there actually still seem to be a few people still interested in Stalin and the Romanovs (I am!), I thought I just oughta give Yiddish its own thread.

Yiddish is a creole, depending on your definition of creole (where's Melatonin when you need her?); I always understood that after the third generation, the word creole is no longer accurate, but I could be wrong. However, if we take the "once a creole, always a creole" attitude, then English is a creole.

Yiddish is a mixture of High Middle German and Hebrew (or Aramaic-- probably both), with lots of Slavic items thrown in. And some other things too.

"Veychere" is dinner; it's also very close to the Slovak (and probably also Slovak and Polish) word for "evening."

"Bentsch'n" is a kind of prayer, and it comes from "benediction," Latin for "blessing."

"Mishpacha" is family, and it's just the Hebrew with the stress moved to the middle syllable.

From what I understand, Yiddish actually preserves grammatical structures that are obsolete in Modern German.

Yiddish isn't German, though, even though they're similar-- no more than Russian is Czech, or Spanish is Portuguese.

Olentzero-- A firvos du talmid'n Yiddish? Nu? Redt mit shmaychel-- estu en Yid? Estu en talmid af loshens? Ich onge'n nisht en goy vos ken'n sprak af Yiddish. Vos es dein inyan?

Nu-- Ich geshtoyg'n alle lern'n Yiddish ken! Der emes es du sproyk: Yiddish kicks toches! Chai v'kayam Yiddish!

--Doda Chana's Tiere Rivkele

You do have a subscription to The Leader?

BTW, Jen; what is "Swabian" German?
--Rivkele

>>You do have a subscription to The Leader?<<

On-line, yoh.
--Rivkele

Rowan hot gefragt:
Olentzero-- A firvos du talmid'n Yiddish? Nu? Redt mit shmaychel-- estu en Yid? Estu en talmid af loshens?

I've always wanted to study Yiddish for no real apparent reason. I finally lucked across a college textbook in a used bookstore and grabbed it. Neyn, ikh bin nit keyn Yid but I love the culture! Klezmer, the cooking, Yiddish. It just appeals to me.

Ich onge'n nisht en goy vos ken'n sprak af Yiddish. Vos es dein inyan?

Well, now you do. If I knew what "inyan" meant I'd tell you what mine was.

Other than that... back to the regularly scheduled thread.


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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

Pidgin is a language of mixed vocabulary and simplified grammar used to allow people of different languages to communicate. It has no native speakers.

When a population arises that speaks the pidgin as their own primary language (as in Haiti or Netherland Antilles), and a new grammar develops to support it, the language is a creole. I believe that creole refers to the way that the language came into being, rather than its longevity. Yiddish may be a creole, but I am not convinced of that one way or another. English would not be. It arose over many centuries with a lot of outside interference, but it never sprang into existence as a developed trade language.

To have a creole, you need to have a population come into existence with no linguistic history for daily living that siezes on a trade language and makes it their own. The African slave trade and the Jewish Diaspora each provide this sort of scenario. The Jews had a scholarly language, Hebrew. However, their daily language, Aramaic, would not have served them well in downtown Rome or up on the banks of the Danube or the coast of Spain. Since the languages that Yiddish and Ladino are based on did not arise before the late middle ages, one question that comes up might be "What did the Diaspora speak for the first thousand to fifteen hundred years and why did they no just keep speaking it?." I don't know what languages they originally spoke, but I would guess that the reason Yiddish and Ladino arose was that the Jews were expelled from other countries and found themselves needing to come up with another "daily" language when they got to their new Eastern European or Spanish homes.

Yiddish has a fascinating history, if for no other reason than that its origins are buried in the mists of time. One troll-made point in last year's Khazar wars on the AOL SDMB has some validity in fact. Several Israeli scholars are looking at the possibility that Yiddish was a German vocabulary imposed on a Slavic grammar expressed in Hebrew text. (This, of course, does nothing to legitimize the other troll assertions.)

I have not found anyone competent who will go so far as to put forth the "real" origin of Yiddish. Most of it is still speculation.

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Tom~

Yiddish has several dialects, of course, but the dialect I've been studying has a grammar very much like German - declension of articles (most Slavic languages don't even have articles in the first place), a limited number of cases (three or four as opposed to the six of Russian), and very little differentiation between gender endings. AFAIK the Slavic grammar portion of the theory just isn't correct.

You and I are on the same page as regards the definition of a creole, tomndebb - it's not longevity but how it came about. Although I differ on the "no previous linguistic history" bit - the slaves imported into the Americas and the Caribbean certainly had their own native tongues. But they had a lot of them and IIRC pidgin came about in order to ease communication between the slaves themselves as well as between masters/overseers and the slave population. The existence of pidgins as the best humans can do to promote communication among different language speakers without serious planning speaks volumes in favor of planned efforts like Esperanto! ;)

Your definition of creole is exactly what I was trying to say - whatever language the Diaspora spoke while they were in transit is immaterial; it's the fact that they took the local language at the time and adapted it for their own purposes.

I really think the high level of similarity between German and Yiddish speaks to its origins as a language adapted for daily use among a minority population.

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

Sadly, my parents only spoke Yiddish when they didn't want the kids to know what they were saying, so I have very very little Yiddish vocabulary.

My father-in-law was with the American Army during WWII, as they were advancing through Germany, and he was the translator for their unit, because he spoke Yiddish and it was close enough to Germany for reasonable usage. He has some stories to tell about that, some amusing, some not so.

>>Well, now you do. If I knew what "inyan" meant I'd tell you what mine was.<< --Olentzero

"Inyan" es dein zach oys du "hafn'n tsu." Efsher es a word fun mein mishpacha; mir sproyk'n af tsimmes-- asach mich hob'n Yiddish, Hebraich, un English, un mir kachn'n di drei loshens in en tuffel.

>>Sadly, my parents only spoke Yiddish when they didn't want the kids to know what they were saying, so I have very very little Yiddish vocabulary.<< --CK Dexter Haven

Mein elters zein Russe g'sprakt fir g'baeltn'n af soydes-- demalt mir zein arriver Russeland. Mein tate nach hot g'talmid'n Slovak-- is es mein im hir mama-loshen-- oyzoy, mein elters ken'n g'sprakt Slovak fir shmues'n privatheit.

Nach, Ich hot g'talmid'n Slovak, oyzoy di elters hob'n g'shpring'n to Latin. Nach, in high school, Ich hot g'talmid'n Latin.

--Rivkele

Shoulda called this the "All Rowan, all the Time" thread.

Anyway, here's a joke:

An old Jewish lady is sitting on a busy bus in the middle of town. She had forgotten to put on her watch, she has an important appointment to go, and is beginning to get a little nervous about the time. A yeshiva bocher gets on the bus and stands near her.
She smiles and askes tentatively, "sproches du yiddish?".

He replies cofidently, "Noch, a bissle".

So she askes, "Nu, vat time is it?"


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Olentzero:Although I differ on the "no previous linguistic history" bit - the slaves imported into the Americas and the Caribbean certainly had their own native tongues.
I don't think we differ. Obviously, the imported slaves grew up with real languages. The point, which you reiterated, is that having arrived in a new place with no common tongue among them (and probably forced to not speak among themselves) they worked out a pidgin among themselves and with the slaveholders (who needed to be able to give orders in some language). Their children grew up speaking the pidgin vocabulary while imposing a grammar on the words.

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Tom~

Rowan, Swabian German is just a German dialect (spoken by my grandparents on my father's side) which sounds very rustic to the speaker of Standard High German.

Swabia is a part of Germany around the black forest, named after the Suevi, a tribe (or group of tribes) that was around during Julius Caesar's time, and may be ancestral to the people in that area (though it is hard to tell with all the migrations -- the Suevi were hanging out in Portugal for quite a while).

On my last visit to Germany I was delighted to see, among all the other translations of the "Asterix and Obelix" comic books, translations into the Swabian dialect.

Items such as "bissle", "farsht'n", "hob'n" sound Swabian to me.

Rowan, you're going way beyond my ability here... I got *most* of what you were saying but "inyan" is still escaping me. Good practice though! Thanks :)

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

I don't think "inyan" is easy to understand if it is being explained in a language in which you are shaky.

(Inyan: A spiritual concept or idea. A general idea as opposed to specifics. The specifics would be "bechinos").

Perhaps loosely interpreted as "religion"?

I was raised a Methodist, but I've been an atheist for far longer than I was a churchgoer by now...

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

>>I don't think "inyan" is easy to understand if it is being explained in a language in which you are shaky.

(Inyan: A spiritual concept or idea. A general idea as opposed to specifics. The specifics would be "bechinos").<< --Jens

>>>Perhaps loosely interpreted as "religion"?

I was raised a Methodist, but I've been an atheist for far longer than I was a churchgoer by now...<<< --Olentzero

::cough::

Actually, all I meant is "motivation"-- what is your motivation, or purpose, for studying Yiddish.

Jen is correct too, though-- "inyan" could mean "big picture"-- "bechinos" is "details."

FTR: for "religion," I would have said "religiya."

Hey, Jen? I learned to say that Yiddish is based on "High Middle German," but I don't really know what High Middle German is. I assume that the "Middle" refers to "Middle Ages," but I don't know whather "High" means that the vowels are high on the palate, or the people who first used the dialogue lived on a hill.

Do you know exactly what "High Middle German" is?

>>Items such as "bissle", "farsht'n", "hob'n" sound Swabian to me.<< --Jen

How are they different from "regular" German words?

A gut'n. --Rivkele

Uh, ::cough:: change "dialogue" above, to "dialect." Brain cramp.

Returning you now to your regularly scheduled thread.

--Rivkele

Rowan: Seriously, the people "lived up on a hill". "High" German is distinguished from "Low" German because the "Low" (or "Flat") Germans lived on the northern plains rather than the southern hilly/mountainous country.

"Bissle" -> "Bisschen"
"Farsht'n" -> "Verstehen"
"Hob'n" -> "Haben"

In general, my Swabian relatives use an "oh" sound where High German would use the "ah" sound. "Jo, froilich" (yaw, froylikh)instead of "Ja, freilich" (yah, frylikh).

Far vos talmud ikh Yidish? Vos iz mein inyan?

S'iz dort, dos iz far vos.

And there you have it :)

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

High Middle German would be the "educated" dialect of medieval German; that is, the Middle German spoken by the rulers, scholars, and probably the more well-off tradesmen and artisans.
I wouldn't know when exactly Middle German was spoken, but it would correspond roughly (as far as development and linguistics are concerned) to Middle English, i.e. if Shakespeare or Chaucer were German they'd have used Middle German.
Speculation: Old English had a number of variants (Kentish, Wessex, etc.) that were only tenuously connected - they were just close enough to be considered the same language, but only just. Middle English had a lot less variation - grammar had become more universal but there was still a lot of variation in vocabulary. I suspect there was the same difference in Old and Middle German, but I leave that to the professional linguists here to expound upon.

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

>>[I]f Shakespeare or Chaucer were German they'd have used Middle German.<<

Uh... Shakespeare used Early Modern English. Chaucer used Middle English.

Nu, tsi du vais inner, yoh?

You studied Yiddish because it's there?

--Rivkele

Here's a couple of links:

http://al.cs.engr.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/jabber.html
This one gets you to a Yiddish translation of "Jabberwocky."

http://members.rotfl.com/cookie4/yiddishstats.html
This takes you to a great place (e-mailed it to my Aunt Franny), with all kinds of stuff. including a "How Yiddishkeit are You" test. I got an 80%, because there's a trick question. Here's a hint: Yiddish is a culture. Forget what Yiddish actually means in Yiddish. Think what it means in English.

It has jokes, shopping, and links (cyber for shmues). It's a very Jewish place. There's one place you can link to called "Cyber-Shtetl."

Hob'n simche-- simchelzeit! A gut vok (a week of peace, where gladness reign and joy increase!)
--Doda Chana's Tiere Rivkele

<<Rowan, Swabian German is just a German dialect (spoken by my grandparents on my father's side) which sounds very rustic to the speaker of Standard High German>>

Does Yiddish sound rustic to German speakers? I know it has a rhythm that I would call a lilt if not for all the gutterals. Yiddish and German sound very different to me, and I cannot understand German at all. German sounds very harsh to me, even in movies where people are supposed to be being tender with each other-- kind the way French always sounds bored-- anyway the Germans always seem to be saying "take two steps back, and talk louder." Very punctuated syllables. Yiddish is very sweet and friendly and warm, by contrast, TO ME, IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

::STOPS, CHECKS, (.)(.)(`)(`) NO, NO COMPARATIVES OR SUPERLATIVES HERE. SEEMS CLEAR.

To me, in my personal experience, Yiddish is also much pleasanter than English.

Would you rather "gey shlefen," that last word actually sounding like the blankets being tucked in around you, or would you rather "go to sleep." And have that staccato punctuate your march into the bedroom?

>>Swabia is a part of Germany around the black forest, named after the Suevi, a tribe (or group of tribes) that was around during Julius Caesar's time, and may be ancestral to the people in that area (though it is hard to tell with all the migrations -- the Suevi were hanging out in Portugal for quite a while).<<

Interesting. A lot of Jews were in Portugal before they were in Germany. Think there's a connection?

>>Items such as "bissle", "farsht'n", "hob'n" sound Swabian to me. In general, my Swabian relatives use an "oh" sound where High German would use the "ah" sound. "Jo, froilich" (yaw, froylikh)instead of "Ja, freilich" (yah, frylikh).>> All quotes, Jens

Yeah. Yiddish has a lot of "oys."

Zayterzoy gut, oyfir vault g'post'n tyil vorter en pair, en af German, un en af "Swabian," tsi ken ich hob g'kreegen'n di vorter af Yiddish-- Oyzoy, tsi mir keyn zalnzeyn di zeylbiker.

Vas ir trakt'n?

Zayt gezunt.

--Rivkele

From Rowan:
You studied Yiddish because it's there?

Yep! Same reason I've studied most of the languages I know, except for French. That was the high school languages requirement.

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

Rowan: Since I grew up with German, it does not sound harsh to me. Yiddish would also sound rustic. In fact, the "gutturals" seem to me some of the most tender sounds, like a gentle breeze ("hauch"). That being said, some of the northern Germans can "make our ears bleed" with their pronunciation.

I think the Suevi were in Portugal around the time of Julius Caesar, which would probably predate the Jewish presence.

Here are some HighGerman-Swabian pairs:
Deutsche-Deidsche
einst-ois
sprach-schbrach
ist-isch
mein-moi
seine-soi
manche-manle
tiefe-diefe
spiel-schbiel

>>Rowan: Since I grew up with German, it does not sound harsh to me. Yiddish would also sound rustic. In fact, the "gutturals" seem
to me some of the most tender sounds,<<

No, no! I didn't mean that the gutterals were unpleasant, only that they keep Yiddish from sounding sing-songy-- like the Scandanavian languages. My mother speaks noch a bissle Yiddish, and spoke English to me as I grew up. I think of my Aunt Chana when I hear Yiddish, and she is the gentlest person I know.

Also, I did not mean to be insulting to German-- I just meant that in my personal experience, German seems harsher than Yiddish. My point was that to me, the languages sound very different, although I understand that to people who don't know one or the other, they sound alike.

>>like a gentle breeze ("hauch").<<

I always thought that word was from the Hebrew word "ruach"!

>>Here are some HighGerman-Swabian pairs:<<

I've added Yiddish:
Deutsche-Deidsche Deitsh (also Ashkenaz-- from Hebrew)
einst-ois eyns
sprach-schbrach sproych, or sproyk, my aunt uses "sprak" as the past participle, but I don't think that's standard)
ist-isch iz
mein-moi meyn
seine-soi zein (this might sound the same)
manche-manle mentsch-- this also means "a good guy."
tiefe-diefe not sure what this means-- it sounds like a couple of different things.
spiel-schbiel shpiel

Yiddish seems to be sort of in between the two-- also, Yiddish looks like it has more dipthongs.

It's also got tons of Hebrew words, and lots of Slavic words. Oddly, though, it also has some Latin-based words, which is what made the Portuguese thing jump out at me-- but you're right, it would have to be after 70 CE.

Zay gezunt.

--Rivkele

PS: do Germans give Shaina and Gitel as first names?

Okay, Rowan, you got me curious. Here I am! Shulem alaichem, y'all!Oddly, though, it also has some Latin-based wordsThis confirms something that has long bothered me: The word "bentch" (to say a blessing) is said to derive from the Latin "benedictare", which has always struck me as wierd. What other yiddish words come from Latin? And what is German for "bless"?

>>Okay, Rowan, you got me curious. Here I am! Shulem alaichem, y'all! << --Keeves

Aleichem Shulem!

[[quote:

oddly, though, it also has some Latin-based words....]] --Me

>>This confirms something that has long bothered me: The word "bentch" (to say a blessing) is said to derive from the Latin "benedictare", which has always struck me as wierd. What other yiddish words come from Latin? And what is German for "bless"?<<

Actually, it comes from "benediction." Say it fast-- "ben'd'sh'n." It's a coincidence that the word ends in "'n," and so do Yiddish infinitives, but hence the back-formation "bentsch," and then the American-Jewish "to bentch."

Also, "dav'n" comes from "divine"-- again the "-'n" coincidence.

The Yiddish word for "beard" is "barb," whcih I think we got from the French, but that makes it indirectly Latin. Ditto "fenster," "window." In French it's "fenestere"-- oy, I think Ich mach a balgan af that spelling-- French majors can correct me.

--Rivkele

Just FYI, all this Yiddishkeit on the board has got me thinking.... I called my Doda Chana, and told her "Ich voyl sproyk'n mitu nor af Yiddish, heynt un tomed," so I'll improve. She seemed kind of amused... but she agreed.

Anyway, also got a book, so Ich voll leyrn'n leyn'n un shrayb'n Yiddish'n. It's about time.

--Doda Chana's Tiere Rivkele

In French it's "fenestere"-- oy, I
think Ich mach a balgan af that spelling-- French majors can correct me.


Actually, the French is "fenetre," with no "s," but the root is the same. Incidentally, "defenstrate" is one of my favorite words.

Thanks PLD-- I've actually been to Paris, but that was years ago, and my French is mostly passive. Ooh, that sounds sexual, doesn't it?

I still love reading Daudet. And seeing Eric Rohmer films.

And Asterix.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

pldennison, I believe your favorite word is "defenestrate" (one more "e"). I agree it is delightful in its obscurity.

The German word for "bless" is "segnen", although in the "Hail Mary", the term used is the obscure "Gebenedeit" (for blessed, which as far as I know occurs no where else in German literature except for that prayer, which of course shares the Latin root for benediction). The prayer contains "Gebenedeit bist Du unter den Weibern", which translates roughly to "Blessed are you among wenches" -- "Weib" is no longer used politely in German conversation.

Asterix and Obelix rule!

"Weib" is no longer used politely in German conversation.


Errr... this must be very recent.



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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

Maybe you've been talking to impolite Germans, John.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

I guess that depends what you mean by "very". In the 60's, it was already being used only in a deprecating sense. The closest parallel in connotation I can offer is "wench" -- not an actual obscene term, and once quite respectable, but a young lad taking somebody's daughter out for a first date would be ill-advised to tell the parents that he thought she was a lovely wench.

Note that the connotation of wench has become somewhat intercourse-oriented, and some wenches are quite proud of it (www.wench.org host the International Wenches Guild).

The connotation of "Weib" is less sexual, and more oriented toward place in society. It might be used to express a contempt of "woman's work", or "woman's gossip".

It might be used to encourage a man to be more "manly" rather than acting like a "Weib".

In normal usage, and even modern forms of the prayer, "Frau(en)" is always used instead of "Weib(er)". ((en)(er) are plural suffixes)

The meaning must have diverged a long time ago, because my aunt gave me several examples of pretty unflattering terms which had "veib," but she couldn't think of one positive term.

veiberisha shtik = "feminine wiles," or something like that.
veibernik = "ho'"
shlechtveib = ballbuster

My aunt, by the way, is a "ballabusta," which word has nothing to do with "ballbuster"-- "ballabusta" means "good hostess."

--Rivkele

I love throwing Yiddish expressions into my speech, because let's face it, oy gevalt is so much more expressive than holy shit. Unfortunately, I'm a shaygets, and I live in fear of being thought mocking or patronizing. So if anyone mentions it, I inform them that my mother was the only shikseh at an all-Jewish high school in California and I got it from her.

Actually, "holy shit" would be "dreken koydesh." Du kanst quote me.

--Rivkele

Rowan says: << My aunt, by the way, is a "ballabusta," which word has nothing to do with "ballbuster"-- "ballabusta" means "good hostess." >>

From the Hebrew, ba'al ("master") and ba-yis ("house"). And, interestingly enough, the word ba'al was also the name of the pagan Canaanite god (to whom children were sacrificed), hated by the Bible writers, but presumably popular enough among the people that the word came into common usage.

Yeah. That whole thing in Hosea about marrying prostitutes, and cheating on G-d is full of puns on the words "Ba'al." One of the other prophecy books is too, but it eludes me at the moment.

--Rivkele

Of course the 60's is "very recent". Great God! we're talking about a radical connotative shift in a common word; one would expect it to take centuries.

Has Goethe been removed from the syllabus?

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

OK, found this "veyb" quote. It's from a musical that was produced in the 1950's. The stanza could be older, though.

Toyznt VEYBER hot gehat
Shloyme hamelech der kliger.
Fargst nisht az tsa yedn VEYB
Hot ir oych gekrign a shviger!

::chuckle, snort::

--Rivkele

For each of the thousand wives, he also got an in-law?

A MOTHER-in-law. It's amazing to me that you understand, jens, because I don't understand German at all.

--Riv

In German, "Schwieger" is just a prefix, "Schwiegervater" is father-in-law, "Schwiegermutter" is mother-in-law. Interestingly, "Schwager" is brother-in-law, "Schwaegerin" is sister-in-law.

What is the Yiddish for father, brother, and sister-in-law?

father-in-law = shver
sister-in-law = shvergerin
brother-in-law = shvoger
daughter-in-law = shnur
son-in-law = aydem
your child's mother-in-law = mechuteneste
your child's father-in-law = mechutin

--Rivkele

Thanks, Rivkele. Interesting that the sister and brother match the German, but the son and daughter and the last two bear no resemblance. I wonder if those came from the Hebrew?

If so, did they use Hebrew forms where they couldn't find good German ones? Or German forms where Hebrew forms were lacking?

Or maybe Russian?

Only the children's in-laws words are Hebrew, as far as I know. They're from a not-often used word for marriage, "mechutin." Actually, I'm not sure whether this word means "marriage," or just "wedding." "Chatan" is a bridegroom, and sometimes also is used for "son-in-law."

I'm not sure about the others; "aydem" and "shnur" totally elude me. I hope to heck that "shnur" isn't related to "shnorr," a verb that means something like "mooch."

--Rivkele

Actually, I suppose "shnur" and "shnorr" could be related. They could both mean someone "strung," or "tied" to you and your family.

"Shnorr" is used in Hebrew, but I don't know whether it originated in Hebrew, or came to modern Hebrew by way of Yiddish. It sounds Yiddish, but I'm just guessing.

Where's Dex? He usually knows stuff like this.

--Rivkele

"Schnur" in German means string, which doesn't seem enlightening vis a vis the in-law situation either.

Although some jokes beginning with "A string went into a bar" might become more meaningful using a little German/Yiddish :-)