Fucking car dealers!

[GaWd]

Need I say more? Just the title of a thread like this would be enough to call all those burned by a dealer and would fill itself quite nicely.

My personal "fucking car dealers" experience concerns the dream car that my wife and I bought at the end of September. It's a 2003 Chevy Tahoe. We skrimped and we saved, we saved and we skrimped-for months on end. We finally got a nice enough down payment together aqnd found the perfect one. Low miles, good condition.

First, it was a sticky door handle and a stubborn window. They fixed it. No biggie, right? In my head, however, I said "It's been in a wreck". Unfortunately, I used my "out loud" voice for that one, and my wife became incensed that her perfect baby was in any way imperfect. THen came the vibration from the A/C pump. No biggie, right? Well, to her, she didn't even notice it, but me-well, being Mr. Car I did. Then the wind-rushing noise from near the passenger door. No biggie to her, because she mostly drives it(I've been relegated to the Jeep).

Then came the rattling. First, it was occasional and muted. Then less occasional and less muted. Now it's an incessant fucking annoyance. It grates on my last fucking nerve. Even the radio won't cover it up anymore. It finally got on my wife's nerves and I took it in for a look-see yesterday.

I got a call this AM from the Service Manager-a friend of my boss for the last 20 years. His news-as I had expected the whole time-was not good. He said, "I put it on the front end rack and wow. Just wow. This car was in a wreck and this is one of the best cover-ups I've personally seen in a long time." Then I asked quite a dumb question-"so you'll fix it, right?"

Of course, the answer is No. My factory warranty does not cover pre-existing damage from an impaction or wreck. I am FURIOUS. Incensed(much like my wife was at the mere sugestion that our baby wasn't perfect), even. I'm quivering on the inside. This is our biggest pruchase to date as a couple besides our black lab puppy. $32K worth.

I hope I don't end up having to use legal means to get the problem taken care of, but I have already contacted our local car law expert. I will use her if need be.

Fcuk.

And mty aunt died last night...

Just fuck.

Sam

[Cat Whisperer]

Oh, that sucks. How to ask this delicately - you didn't mention it, but you did search the VIN before buying, right? Did the report come back clean in spite of the vehicle being written off?

[Lord Ashtar]

When I was young and stupid, I wanted a Ford Probe. I saw one in the paper and headed over to the dealer to look at it. I wanted it. He asked me what he would have to do to have me buy the car. I said payments of $200.00 a month or less. He said no problem.

I came back the next day to talk to their loan officer and he said, "Okay, we've got you down with a 42 month loan at $373.45 a month..."

I got up to walk out of the room. They begged me to stay. We worked it out, but it was as if they thought I just wouldnt notice an almost 100% increase in the payments we had talked about.

This is why I get my loans figured out before I even walk onto a lot now.

[Lord Ashtar]

BTW, I'm really sorry about your aunt, GaWd.

[catsix]

Lord Ashtar said:
I said payments of $200.00 a month or less. He said no problem.

Car dealers can do incredible things with numbers to sill shaft you like crazy but keep the payments low. Negotiate the actual, out the door, tax, title, dealer prep, everything price of the car and then work out the financing.

As for vehicles that have been in a wreck, you'll know that by a VIN serach if the accident was ever reported to anyone. If someone paid out of pocket to have a friend fix the damage, how would that show up in a VIN search?

I'm sorry you got hosed on this GaWd, and I really hope there's something you can do about it without having to resort to the lawyer thing.

[Lord Ashtar]

Car dealers can do incredible things with numbers to sill shaft you like crazy but keep the payments low. Negotiate the actual, out the door, tax, title, dealer prep, everything price of the car and then work out the financing.
Yeah, I know this now. Like I said, I was young and stupid. :D

[Metacom]

Need I say more? Just the title of a thread like this would be enough to call all those burned by a dealer and would fill itself quite nicely.
Was it a dealer who also sells new cars, or a used-car-only place?

If it was a dealer who also sells new cars, you may have some luck (if the dealer doesn't remedy the situation) going over the dealers head up to the regional manager (and then possibly beyond him) for whatever brand he sells. I'd guess this would be more likely to work if you bought the Tahoe from a Chevy dealer, but it may be worth a try otherwise...

[Sweetums]

Yes, always ask for the VIN number, and do a search. A few years ago I wanted to buy a car, after controversy with the test drive (no, going once around the block is not a test drive). I got the test drive I wanted, and decided I wanted to buy the car. The dealership was closing so I decided to come back the next day, and mad arraingment to do exactly that with the salesman. Once I got home I realized I hadn't asked for the VIN number, no biggie, I would just call the dealership the next day.

Me: Hello, this is Mr. Sweetums, I was coming out today to buy the white Forrester from (Salesman's name)

Girl at desk: He's with another customer right now, can I have him call you back?

Me: Sure, but all I wanted was the VIN number so I can run a carfax report, could you give me that.

GAD: (long pause while she supposedly looks for the paperwork) Uhh, no the paperwork isn't around (funny, if they were going to sell the car today, don't you think they might have the paperwork handy)

Me: Sigh, well have him call me.

An hour passes, I call back:

Me: Can I talk to (Salesman's name)?

GAD: He's still with that customer.

Me: All I want is the VIN number, can't you give that to me?

GAD: I don't have the paperwork for that car.

Me: The VIN number is on the car itself. Isn't the car still parked out front (about 10 feet from the front door, where this girls desk is located)?

GAD: Let me have him call you back.

Another hour passes.

The scene above is repeated.

Another hour passes

Me: I want to talk to (Salesman's name), or I want the VIN number, I made arraingments to come out to buy that car at 1:00 today, but I won't, unless I get the VIN and run a carfax.

GAD: He's still with that customer.

Me: Tell him when he finishes that he isn't with THIS customer anymore. Since you feel no need to give me the VIN number, I can assume that you know I will find out what is wrong with this car. (slams down phone)

Bought a car two days later from another dealer. THEY ran a carfax for me, and gave me the VIN in case I wanted to check for myself (I did). I love my car!

[GaWd]

To answer some questions:

I bought it from a Pontiac/GMC/Buick dealer. I never pulled a carfax report on the vehicle because I was assured by the dealer that they had one and it was clean. They promised me several times that they would produce one and never did. It has pissed me off from the start. I will now spend my hard-earned money and get a carfax report.

And yes, I know that you should pull one yourself, and that pisses me off too. I know better than that.

The good news is that it wasn't a full-on wreck. THe fender is original so far as my friendly service manager can tell, as there are no touch-up marks, or overspray found anywhere on the car. The glass also appears to be original and the frame looks never to have been damaged.

The bad news is that we don't know what happened to it or why the core support is misplaced, and why the front end components don't align well.

I took it to the selling dealer to see if they would offer to fix whatever was found to be wrong, as per the advice given me by the attorney. So now we wait. Hopefully I can have some word back from the dealer today and I can weigh all of my options.

Thanks Lord Ashtar.

Sam

[GaWd]

New update:

Carfax report reports no accidents or any other flags. The only info I got out of this that was beneficial(for my damned $20 that I don't have right now), is that the prior owner was a leasing agency. That means that if the leasing agency covered the damage up, they're probably liable somehow.

I still haven't heard from the dealership re: the second opinion.

Sam

[ivylass]

What are the lemon laws in California?

[Sampiro]

I have to give an unsolicited testimonial to Carmax (http://www.carmax.com/); I'm not employed by or associated with them in any way, but all of my friends who have used them rave. They're no-haggle, the will not sell any car that has been in an accident, they've won awards for their customer service and they have an outstanding warranty (they literally give you a business card sized list of items their warranty doesn't cover- if it's not on there, it's covered). When I trade next month I intend to use them.

[mike1dog]

If Carmax doesn't sell wrecked cars, then why under their Now Hiring button are several jobs for "painter" which actually looks like autobody repair?

[Metacom]

If Carmax doesn't sell wrecked cars, then why under their Now Hiring button are several jobs for "painter" which actually looks like autobody repair?
A car can be damanged without being in a full-on wreck. Door dings, minor fender-benders, scratches, etc.?

[GaWd]

OK, well I'm not happy, but I don't have the patience, time, or money to fight these fuckers.

Instead of fixing it or taking the vehicle in and checking it all over, what I got was a cracked fender tab backed up with a body washer, 2 replaced bolts, and 2 tightened bolts. It's not sufficient, but it's all I'm ever going to get. I'll have to keep an eye on the bolts for tightness, but I suppose it's a small consolation. My bumper is still crooked, but it's not noticeable unless you're a service manager(that's the only reason I know about it, my Service Manager pointed it out).

The service manager at the second dealership(stealership), apparently wanted me to diagnose the whole fucking problem for him, so he refused to look at the bumper because I didn't tell him. He also seems to think that I'm not being honest with him because we "didn't notice 'it' earlier". Whatever in the fuck "it" is.

I placed a call to my sales guy, but I doubt it will go anywhere.

Thanks again.

Sam

[FinnAgain]

My condolences Sam. Car stuff sucks, but hopefully your aunt's passing should put things in perspective. You still have life and health, and it's only money. Even if it is a lot of it.

Strength and courage.
Best wishes.

[The King of Soup]

I'm sorry for your loss, GaWd. I hope that you find strength and joy in your memories of your aunt and in others who love you. I'm sorry about the car, too, but you apparently have decent auto-instinct, which will benefit you in the future if you trust it.

[GaWd]

THanks for the thoughts, Finn and TKoS.

Yes, I am auto-minded, however since this is NOT a project car, is NOT paid off, and is STILL under warranty, I must put my auto-instincts aside. My instinct says to lay a layer of heat shield down, bust out my MIG welder and fix that fucking fendertab. Of course, in the future, should there be any problems, they'd just decide not to cover them due to my repairs. Hell, those assholes already assume I'm the one liable for the damage and I'm just covering it all up.

It still pisses me off that I'm letting the stealership get over on me, but short of a long protracted suit and countless hours of hair-pulling, teeth-gnashing wrangling, I don't think I have much recourse.

Sam

[Typo Negative]

What are the lemon laws in California?
IIRC, California Lemon Laws apply only to new cars, not used cars.

[GaWd]

Nope spooje. The California Lemon Laws apply to all new or used vehicles covered by the manufacturers warranty. Unfortunately, the lemon laws only apply after you've attempted to have a problem fixed and the dealer continues to a problem that is recurring. I think the magic number is 3 times.

However, there are a number of consumer acts written into the civil code that cover this type of behavior, and there are also additional laws covering vehicle sales specifically.

Sam

[Rick]

Nope spooje. The California Lemon Laws apply to all new or used vehicles covered by the manufacturers warranty. Unfortunately, the lemon laws only apply after you've attempted to have a problem fixed and the dealer continues to a problem that is recurring. I think the magic number is 3 times.

However, there are a number of consumer acts written into the civil code that cover this type of behavior, and there are also additional laws covering vehicle sales specifically.

Sam
I hate to piss in your wheaties here, but according to the
Sate of California (http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/general/lemon.htm) the problem you are describing is not covered by the lemon law Song-Beverly does not apply if the problem was caused by abuse after the vehicle was delivered. Be sure you follow the terms of the warranty for maintenance and proper use of the vehicle.
An accident is not considered normal use of the car/truck. Also the car maker's warranty will exclude any problems resulting from an accident. This is not a lemon law case.
You may have a case against the car dealer (IANAL and all that), but from what I read, I am not sure about that. You said that the dealer told you the carfax was clean, and when you ran it, it was clean. There is a strong possibility that the dealer did not know the car had been hit, as he may have bought it at an auction.
You might be able to get the dealer to unwind the deal, and take the car back. I would suggest that you consult a reputable law firm.

[GaWd]

I hate to piss in your wheaties here, but according to the
Sate of California (http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/general/lemon.htm) the problem you are describing is not covered by the lemon law
An accident is not considered normal use of the car/truck. Also the car maker's warranty will exclude any problems resulting from an accident. This is not a lemon law case.

I hate to piss in yours as well, but I wasn't talking about my case specifically, so you're wrong. Lemon laws cover ALL vehicles, new & used, covered by warranties. Obviously, Song-Beverly doesn't cover a vehicle in a wreck/impact incident, however, the Consumer Legal Remedies Act(CC sec. 1750), and the Deceptive Practices act(CC sec. 1770) probably do somehow in my case where a dealer sold me a vehicle that was in an impact incident and sold to me without diclosure(whether they knew that fact or not is in the minutiae, and I haven't yet claimed that they did know or could have known).

I understand that my case isn't a lemon law case, I was just trying to let Spoojer know that in Cali, the Lemon laws still apply to used vehicles.

You may have a case against the car dealer (IANAL and all that), but from what I read, I am not sure about that.

Well, I work for a lawfirm, and I've already consulted with an attorney. I'm glad you're with holding your official non-legal opinion, but under contract law I probably have a case. As to whether(as I said before), it is worth the time, energy, drama, anger, money and such to litigate, I doubt it and that's why I'm moving on and making my opinion known to the dealer.

You said that the dealer told you the carfax was clean, and when you ran it, it was clean. There is a strong possibility that the dealer did not know the car had been hit, as he may have bought it at an auction.

Well, the car was supposed to have undergone many multi-point(128?) inspections and if they had paid any attention, the damage should have been noted-it was not. Carfax aside, it is very easy for damage not to end up in a carfax report. As long as the VIN isn't reported to an insurance company for a claim, there will never be an entry in the report.

Add to that the fact that another shop identified the problem in minutes, I have a less than stellar opinion of the stealership in question and their shop.

You might be able to get the dealer to unwind the deal, and take the car back.

Why on earth would I do that? I love the truck, and aside from the fender issue and a slightly misplaced bumper that only a mechanic would notice, it's trouble-free. I am still hot that I'm being dicked over. Wouldn't you be? THose cocksuckers should have fixed the problem instead of blaming me, accusing me of being the wrecker instead of the wreckee, and generally showing apathy to a customer who has been let down by their establishment.

So, instead of screaming bloody hell, I will do what any good consumer should do. I'm writing letters, I'm sending faxes, I'm lodging the proper complaints for the proper reasons. Above all else, I am going to take steps to ensure that not a single soul in my family and group of friends-all of us Chevy people-allow a dime of our collective cash to get into their pockets again.

Sam

[World Eater]

Sorry to hear about your aunt, my thoughts are with you. As far as the car, good luck with that, I'd be frothing at the mouth as well. If you need help breaking some legs, let me know. :p

[Typo Negative]

This is why I vowed to never again purchase a used vehicle. (my history with used vehicles is a tear-wrenching tale of woe, I assure you)

[GaWd]

This is why I vowed to never again purchase a used vehicle. (my history with used vehicles is a tear-wrenching tale of woe, I assure you)

Used vehicles are an ok deal as long as you buy from a representative dealer of whatever brand you're purchasing from. They actually have a reputation to worry about and do damage control very well.

In my case, the salesman has already called me and asked me to bring the car by so they can get their body man to take a look at it. I don't expect much, honestly, but as long as I can be reassured that they've not put a cheesy band-aid on the wound(the broken bolt tab on the fender, and aligned the bumper), I won't bitch too much.

Thanks for the offer, Worldy. It was a biker funeral service on a Saturday. Nothing but Hell's Angels at the service and about 15 of us(her real family), who weren't bikers. Odd to say the least.

Sam

[catsix]

Lord Ashtar said:
Yeah, I know this now. Like I said, I was young and stupid.

I wasn't trying to say that you had done something wrong, it's just that someone had to explain to me that if I had let a dealer do that 'What are you willing to pay a month?' for the car, I could've had a payment lower than the one I've got now, and been paying more in the long run.

I had to be taught before I went to buy my first car to be firm as all hell and be willing to leave. I didn't want to be rude, see, but some dealers will outright strong arm you. I lucked out with the guy who sold me the car I have now. Being the dealership owner meant that commission wasn't much a factor and he was willing to discuss with me the 'out the door' price, allowed for a hundred mile test drive including a stop at my mechanic, and then held the car for a couple of days with nothing down so I could decide if I really wanted it.

And he never called my house. :)

Sampiro said:
They're no-haggle,

Which is OK for some, but some people love to haggle the price down and know they're getting the lowest price they possibly can.

GaWd said:
Used vehicles are an ok deal as long as you buy from a representative dealer of whatever brand you're purchasing from. They actually have a reputation to worry about and do damage control very well.

I bought my car from a Pontiac dealer (it's a Chevy) which is related, but not the exact brand. What really interested me was that the dealership owner (who I dealt with) had absolutely no problem at all with my mechanic or my body shop guy looking things over and giving me a rundown before I bought it.

Since then, there's been one recall (obviously fixed by Chevrolet) and one problem that occurred after warranty, but that Chevrolet paid for after I found out that they had completely redesigned that part the model year after my car due to problems with rust and vibration putting a hole in the power steering fluid line. Once I told them I knew they'd had that problem, and that I knew they did a redesign to correct it, they reimbursed me for the replacement.

[fruitbat]

I had a Honda Civic that was in two major accidents. One nearly tore the front end off the car. Our insurance paid to have it repaired both times to the tune of over 10k total.

So when it comes time to sell it we figure that given the history and the ubiquity of Carfax we couldn't possibly sell it because of its accident history. Lo and behold the Carfax report was completely clean and showed no accident history whatsoever. We felt morally obligated to tell the buyer the history, but had they been relying on Carfax they would have been screwed.

I am not sure if getting the Carfax report in the OP's case would do any good, I am betting it is clean despite the accident. My estimation of Carfax has certainly diminished.

[MrPeabody]

Carfax mostly reports on accidents that result in the car getting totaled or getting a salvage title. Most other major accidents fall below the radar.

Your best bet is still to get someone to go over the car befor you buy it.

[GaWd]

Carfax will buy the note on your vehicle if you can prove it was in an accident that was reported to any DMV...missed the boat on that one to be sure!

Sam