Fellow Comic Nerds: Which set of Trade paperbacks should I tackle this weekend? [Archive]

Fenris

01-14-2005, 05:33 AM

Can't stand Preacher, Invisibles is incoherent (clever and fun, but gibberish) and Transmetropolitan is good, but gets stale part way through and is best in smaller doses. You can only take so much Spider Jeruselem in one dose.

Swamp Thing, the first couplea arcs are stunningly good but it dribbles off (during the interminable "American Gothic" thing--Alan Moore at his most pretentious and thuddingly obvious*), it picks up a bit at the very end of AG (Swampy invades Gotham) and the "Swampy in Space" arc sucks (Moore f*cked up Adam Strange so badly that he wasn't usable for a decade).

Sandman is wonderful read in one sitting--you'll get nuances that you wouldn't get in smaller doses and it reads like a novel--introduction, rising action, conflict, higher action, resolution, denouncement (or however it goes).

Sandman would be my pick.

Fenris

*"Slavery and racism are BAD!"/"Woman should be treated as PEOPLE!" :rolleyes: Th' whole American Gothic run felt like a series of bad public service announcements.

paulberserker

01-14-2005, 05:50 AM

I'd go for Preacher, then Sandman.

I just finished the Invisibles. It's...alright, but far from Morrisons best. I know its not on your list, but track down The Filth TPB. It's in a similar vein, but a lot better IMO.
I still think Transmetropolitans overrated. It's good, but not brilliant.
Hellboys great, as is the middle part of Moores Swamp Thing run - the Heaven versus Hell bit etc. I think i'll reread them at some point soon.

The Lucifer TPBs are also very good, as a spin off from Sandman.

Profane

01-14-2005, 06:08 AM

Hellboy, Sandman as my second pick. They're both great to read stright through, and your eyes and brain with both thank you. I put Hellboy first because I love the art.

sleeepy2

01-14-2005, 06:18 AM

Hellboy is the only thing in that pile I'd reach for.

Better yet, run out and get the 1300+ page Bone (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/188896314X/qid=1105705409/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-1985774-5889646?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) trade, the whole awesome series in one $25 (used price) book!

Hey, It's That Guy!

01-14-2005, 06:50 AM

Preacher is my favorite of those, and I read all nine books over the course of three nights. I can vouch for the fact that one marathon weekend reading session will be a mind-blowing experience.

After that, Hellboy is MUCH lighter reading, and Sandman is slower and more serious and ponderous. I LIKE Sandman, but I do not LOVE it like so many other readers did. That doesn't mean it isn't a great read, though.

In any case, you have great taste and a terrific wife. I've read all of those except Invisibles (no interest in Grant Morrison), and you're in for some wonderful hours ahead.

petelin

01-14-2005, 08:28 AM

When I saw the title of the thread, I thought 'Sandman and Preacher had better be on this list...but if they are, which should be read first?'

So I don't know which, but I'd definitely vote for Sandman or Preacher.

If you're in the mood to read about a kickass guy and see violence and hear swearing, read Preacher. If you're up for a more cerebral story, read Sandman, but you really can't go wrong with either.

What a great gift. Me and my socks are jealous.

Cliffy

01-14-2005, 08:41 AM

Sandman is the best of that lot (miles beyond everything but Invisibles). (Well, I haven't read all of Swamp Thing yet.) I agree with Fenris that Sandman works great in a single sitting. You'll both want and need to read it again and again (just yesterday I realized something that I should have seen years ago), but you can probably get through it once in a day.

One note -- the Sandman collections aren't exactly in order. Several one-off issues came between the longer "Season of Mists" and "A Game of You" arcs, then more one-offs between "Game" and "Brief Lives," then another one-off (the fabulous "Ramadan") before "Worlds' End." These were all collected in the "Fables & Reflections" TPB, but they're jumbled up in that book and IMO they work better if they're read in original publication order. The issue numbers are printed on the Table of Contents for each story and the Sandman Summer Special ("The Song of Orpheus") goes between #31 and #32, which starts "A Game of You."

I think Invisibles is fabulous, but unlike Sandman, it demands re-reads (instead of merely rewarding them). It's also often very difficult to get the thread of what's going on (tho' never impossible), so trying to breeze through the whole set in a day will leave you totally confused.

I thought Preacher was generally pretty crappy except for the ending.

--Cliffy

ussentinel

01-14-2005, 08:47 AM

Vote for one, or rank them in order. Whichever one gets the highest score will be read this weekend.

IMO: In order, Sandman, Swamp Thing (no matter which trades you have of the first two), Hellboy, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, and The Invisibles.

Askia

01-14-2005, 12:40 PM

I wouldn't read SANDMAN because that's just too much of a good thing -- 75 extremely well-written comics (plus the two Death mini series, the SANDMAN: Dream Hunters hardcover and SANDMAN: Endless Nights) in one 24 hour sitting. You need to allot time to savor what you've read.

Given your time constraints, I vote PREACHER or TRANSMETROPOLITAN. Either one would have far less convoluted backstories and tie-ins, and wrap up in the neatest packages when you're done.

If quality is what you're after and you absolutely want to get lost ina writer's vision, start with either SANDMAN or SWAMP THING in approximately that order.

The INVISIBLES and HELLBOY, last.

/hijack/ Fenris. Wow. Profoundly disagree with you about Moore's take on Rann society and Adam Strange being "unusable." All he did was cast doubt on Sardeth's "communication beam" transporting Adam Strange being the accident accident Sardeth always claimed, revealing Rann as a victim of atomic war, positioning Thanagarians as galactic badasses and getting Alanna pregnant. It was Richard Bruning's ADAM STRANGE mini-series after that that did lots more damage: casting Rann in a civil war, killing off Alanna, removing the effects of the Zeta Beam, stranding Strange on Rann to raise his daughter alone and making Sardeth insane. Case in point: the next time Strange was seen, Mark Waid actively reversed everything damaging about Bruning's mini-series and restored Adam Strange and Rannian society to what they were after Moore's story.

cmkeller

01-14-2005, 12:49 PM

I vote Sandman, Preacher, Swamp Thing, having no knowledge of the other three.

And get the Starman trades ASAP. I just re-read the whole series in comic book form in the past week, and I love it more and more every time.

FisherQueen

01-14-2005, 12:55 PM

I've been rereading Sandman this week, and have just the final volume to go. You should read it, too. Be like me! Peer pressure! All the cool kids are doing it...

Arch Trout

01-14-2005, 12:56 PM

Preacher, it has to be Preacher.
Plus, at 9 trades it'll take a while.

My personal favourite.

Cliffy

01-14-2005, 01:28 PM

Askia reminds me -- when I say Sandman, I'm talking about volumes 1-10. Gaiman has done a few more Sandman volumes since then, including The Dream Hunters and Endless Nights, both of which are good (DH especially), but they're not part of the main Sandman whole. Gaiman also did two miniseries about, um, one of the major supporting characters of Sandman which are worth checking out, but again, not really part of the Sandman core. DC has also published a million other Sandman spin-off stuff, some of which is good (Lucifer is great), some of which is not so good.

--Cliffy

mazinger_z

01-14-2005, 01:33 PM

You have the entire sets of these? Holy crap! That's awesome. I'm so jealous. I like to read things from worse to best, so here's my order and my 2 cents:

The Invisibles - it's difficult and it's really good (though not great), not the worse of the bunch, but a good starting point

Hellboy - I never understood the allure of this character. The few things I have read have such slow plotting.

Swamp Thing - This is going to be a lot of reading, if you're going back to Alan Moore. Great stuff.

Transmetropolitan - This is great. Efficient writing, great rants!

Preacher - This should be quick reading.

Sandman - Hands down, the best stuff in this lot. Give yourself a breather before reading this.

If you notice my order, I start out with the difficult (and/or slow) stuff, then press forward with the breezy, albeit deep writings. I end with the book that is both. Another alternative order that may build to a better (for lack of a better word) climax culminating in The Sandman would be:

Hellboy
Transmet
Swamp Thing
Preacher
Invisibles
Sandman

Selkie

01-14-2005, 01:39 PM

My, what a generous gift! You really couldn't go wrong with any of those series, but here's my suggested reading order:

Transmetropolitan
Preacher
Hellboy
Swamp Thing
The Invisibles
Sandman

Transmet and Preacher can both be comfortably devoured in the amount of time you have, without much left over. Either Hellboy or Swamp Thing would leave you with time left over. Invisibles and Sandman would probably run you over your allotted time limit.

Miller

01-14-2005, 02:14 PM

Ranked in order of "Good to read in one sitting," and not necessarily in order of quality:

Transmetropolitan - I'd start here. It's one of the shorter reads in the list, fast-paced, funny as hell, reasonably thought-provoking if not especially deep, and gorgeously (and consistently) illustrated. Thematically, it's the bastard love child of William Gibson and Hunter S. Thompson. Might stir up unpleasant memories of the last election, though.

Hellboy - There's no over-all arc to Hellboy, although there are a few mini-arcs spread out through the TPBs. All the stories are ultimatly self-contained, and jump back and forth in time to tell whatever story is on Mignola's mind. Probably the easiest to read in one sitting, but also the least necessary to read in one sitting.

Preacher - This is a pretty hefty read, simply in terms of sheer weight. Also, very much a "guy" comic. A lot of emphasis on standing by your buddies, treating your women right, be a stand-up guy, and kicking in the teeth of anyone who disrespects you and yours. If you enjoy John Wayne movies, even ironically, you'll probably enjoy Preacher. And don't let the manly-man stuff fool you. There's a very strong emotional heart to the piece, that ultimatly proves to be more important to the rather shallow "angry atheist" theme that starts out the series.

The Invisibles - Probably the most complex and demanding work on the list. If you understand exactly what's going on in the story on your first pass, you are clearly some hyper-advanced mutant with a big veiny forehead and probably psychic powers. On the other hand, comprehension is not a pre-requisite for enjoyment on this title. I originally read the whole series out of order, which might have caused some sort of permanent brain damage. I still fell in love with it. I also still don't know what the fuck the ending was all about, but I'm pretty sure it was both cool and brilliant. Take your time on this one. Word of warning: the art in some of the TPBs is awful. Don't let it phase you. The story more than makes up for it, and eventually the art catches up.

Sandman - Without a doubt, the best of the bunch. Don't read this one all at once. Savor it like fine wine. That's all I have to say on this title. I don't need to sell it, it sells itself.

Swamp Thing - I've only just started this series myself. Good, so far, but nothing amazing. I'm only one TPB in, though.

RealityChuck

01-14-2005, 02:43 PM

Which version of Swamp Thing? I prefer Len Wein's original to Alan Moore's later riffs on it.

Cliffy

01-14-2005, 03:36 PM

The Moore Swamp Thing is the only thing that's fully in TPB, Chuck, so I assume that's what Kaitlyn's got. (I think there's one volume so far of the original Wein series.)

Miller, you should check out "Anarchy for the Masses: The Disinformation Guide to The Invisibles." Lots of interviews and synopses -- the guys who put it together have an understanding of the series that make a lot of sense, and Morrison himself thinks the book is a good guide.

--Cliffy

P.S. 3000!

Miller

01-14-2005, 03:50 PM

Sounds cool, Cliffy. I'll have to check that out.

Askia

01-14-2005, 04:20 PM

SANDMAN is the most literary and cohesive of the comics listed.... but "literary" is not the same as "literate." In SWAMP THING, what Moore does with his prose, dialogue, caption descriptions, character deconstruction, world-building, invented languages, playing with DC mythos, storytelling, POVs, introducing adult themes and horror explorations and plot twists that get pulled out of his arse is amazing. This is the real beginnings of the super-science Batman characterization that joins up with late 90s JLA starts, this is where we get a rougish John Constantine, a truly hellish Demon and a frightening archangel with the Spectre. This is where the Swamp Thing becomes just one more in a series of earth elementals yet so uniquely powerful, so feared that authorities rush to get the opinions of a semi-legitimate Lex Luthor who charges a one million dollar consultation on how to deal with him. Great, great stuff.

Fenris

01-14-2005, 05:27 PM

I
/hijack/ Fenris. Wow. Profoundly disagree with you about Moore's take on Rann society and Adam Strange being "unusable." All he did was cast doubt on Sardeth's "communication beam" transporting Adam Strange being the accident accident Sardeth always claimed, revealing Rann as a victim of atomic war, positioning Thanagarians as galactic badasses and getting Alanna pregnant. It was Richard Bruning's ADAM STRANGE mini-series after that that did lots more damage: casting Rann in a civil war, killing off Alanna, removing the effects of the Zeta Beam, stranding Strange on Rann to raise his daughter alone and making Sardeth insane. Case in point: the next time Strange was seen, Mark Waid actively reversed everything damaging about Bruning's mini-series and restored Adam Strange and Rannian society to what they were after Moore's story.

IMO, and YMMV of course, but the thing that opened the door for Richurd Bruning's (awful, IMO) ADAM STRANGE mini was the whole horrible/damaging notions that Moore set up in that issue of Swampy: namely that A) Rannians were contemptuous of Adam (remember the panel of the Rannians making "monkey faces/gestures" behind Adam's back?). B) that the only reason Sardath used the Zeta beam was to get an intergalactic stud to impregnate Alanna and C) that Sardath (or someone) made up all those monsters (The Vacuumizers of Vantor, etc) to keep Adam busy and his mind occupied so he didn't realize he was being used as a stud. Rann was never in danger from them. The Thanagarians as Intergalactic Badasses came from JL of A um...117-119-ish(?) but again, it hadn't been used much until Moore dug up (and really improved) the concept.

Note that Rann being a post-Nuke society dates from Showcase #17, it's not Moore's concept originally, although it was rarely used until Moore revived it.

IMO, Waid undid Adam Strange's stuff back to JL of A #120 or so when he was moved to Rann full-time. He had to Zeta-Beam again, he was a hero to the Rannians, Sardath was fixed, Allana and his daughter were revived, etc. I'd kill for Waid to write an Adam Strange series. I think he's the only writer who really "gets" the character.

Askia

01-14-2005, 06:21 PM

Fenris. While I'm playing Ebert to your Siskel, let me say that I found A) to be funny as hell and an interesting, post-modern revelation about Rann and B) I thought was a sensible re-interpretation of Adam's origins. I didn't get the impression from C) at all -- it was the Thanagarian warrior who was taunting him saying, "Rann needs no protectors -- just the fierce vitality of your seed," which could be taken as the literal truth (dubious) or a vast oversimplication. Given the source, I doubted it was true. I've read several Adam Strange stories in which he clearly did protect Rann from genuine threats from outside. I think Moore's implication that Sardeth controlled the Zeta Beam to the extent that he deliberately sent Adam back to Earth at "awkward moments" was worse, but granted, YMMV.

I'm not surprised other (JLA) writers used the Thanagarians are badasses motif earlier, but I recognize that Alan Moore tweak when I read it (the mind eater weapon and the idea of Aerial Interia Combat.) I did think that Rann's surviving a nuclear war was an Alan Moore original idea since I was reading WATCHMEN and SWAMP THING back issues at about the same time, so thanks for that correction.

So really, when you get down to it, the only "unique" changes Moore made to Adam Strange mythos were stating 1) some Rannians are assholes who are contemptuous of Adam's origins and 2) there were ulterior motives behind Adam Strange's so-called accidental origins. Taken separately or combined, I honestly don't think these notions hurt the character. In fact, for he and Alanna to love each other so deeply despite their obvious differences of species, culture and physiology makes their relationship all the more poignant.

Richard Bruning's backstory on Adam Strange's family history and home life did have a couple of redeemable moments, but the rest was just "meh."

I'd have to read the current Adam Strange mini by Adam Diggle and Pascal Ferry (which I've heard good things from) to get an idea how far Mark Waid dialed back Strange's retconn, but it's hard to bottle up an Alan Moore revamped idea once it's out of the bottle.

Fenris

01-14-2005, 07:04 PM

Fenris. While I'm playing Ebert to your Siskel, let me say that I found A) to be funny as hell and an interesting, post-modern revelation about Rann
Whereas I thought it was terribly, terribly damaging--Adam as champion of Rann="iconic concept" Adam as joke that Rannians are contempuous of="MAD Magazine parody concept".

B) I thought was a sensible re-interpretation of Adam's origins. It damages the concept though--the key to Adam is that he has to solve the problem within the time-limit. Make the beam Sardath controllable, and you've undermined the concept. It doesn't particularly...offend (for lack of a milder word) me, but I think it hurts the core concept. By way of analogy, any attempt to treat the FF as anything other than a family will fail because the core of the FF is a super-hero family.

I didn't get the impression from C) at all -- it was the Thanagarian warrior who was taunting him saying, "Rann needs no protectors -- just the fierce vitality of your seed," which could be taken as the literal truth (dubious) or a vast oversimplication. Given the source, I doubted it was true. I just dug out the issues--you're right. I'd have sworn there was a comment like "Ha! You think the fact that there's always a monster that just happens to show up at the same time you do and takes nearly as long to defeat as you have time to fight is a conincidence? Nonsense--the monster is how Sardath gets your blood flowing for your trysts with your alien princess"

So really, when you get down to it, the only "unique" changes Moore made to Adam Strange mythos were stating 1) some Rannians are assholes who are contemptuous of Adam's origins--it's more than "some". Per Adam, "Why can't these people handle their own problems? They call me names behind my back: ape, throwback..."

Richard Bruning's backstory on Adam Strange's family history and home life did have a couple of redeemable moments, but the rest was just "meh." I've got some stronger words... ;) :p

I'd have to read the current Adam Strange mini by Adam Diggle and Pascal Ferry (which I've heard good things from) to get an idea how far Mark Waid dialed back Strange's retconn, but it's hard to bottle up an Alan Moore revamped idea once it's out of the bottle.
The new series isn't bad--it's actually a pretty good story, if you assume it's about some guy who's not Adam Strange. The one flaw that every (except Waid!) post-Crisis writer has had made (including Alan Moore) is they they treat Adam like THE ULTIMATES version of Captain America--attack first, think second. Or, "Think about how best to attack, rather than how to solve the problem." The "real" Adam Strange wouldn't have just started attacking Swampy for just standing there. If I was a DC editor and someone came to me with an Adam Strange proposal, I'd require them to go 1-2 issues without Adam firing his blaster.

Also the new series messed up Adam's costume (which is no biggie-the real costume will be back. The classics always return) as badly as that they did in that Daredevil run where he was doing acrobatics in about 40 pounds of body armor.

PS-It's always fun to discuss/disagree with you! :)

Askia

01-14-2005, 08:16 PM

Okay, Fenris. You've sold me. While Adam Strange is a man of action, I agree he is best as a thinking "science-hero" first, so you're absolutely right to be critical of his "blast-first ask-questions later" approach in recent comic appearances. Everything he did to overthrow the En'tarans' takeover of Rann was predicated on his outthinking them, and it was refreshing to see that kind of cunning and guile. So, from this perspective, maybe (Og forgive me) Moore did screw up that initial encounter in SWAMP THING.

Moore was probably setting up a rationale why the Rannian government would want to lend the Zeta Beam technology in the climax of his never used TWILIGHT OF THE SUPERHEROES proposal, when all those aliens attacked the Earth. (I always loved the idea for this series. If I were independently wealthy I'd pay him to write the whole damned thing as a 12- issue tightly scripted maxi series and then hire George Perez to illustrate the interiors and Alex Ross to do the covers. It'll be all mine, mine, MINE.)

It is fun to argue/agree with you about comics. I figure I'm going to have to roughly double my reading output of Silver Age stuff to be in your league, though. But I'll bet I can take you in Milestone comics trivia!

Fenris

01-14-2005, 08:21 PM

But I'll bet I can take you in Milestone comics trivia!

I'd concede--I never read 'em, mainly because I was really broke at the time and I couldn't afford a new line (I had to drop a bunch of my regular titles too). At some point I'm gonna go and get some of the back-issues. I really liked the look of the Superman type (with the girl sidekick)

Cliffy

01-14-2005, 11:52 PM

That would be Icon, Fenris, Justice Clarence Thomas's favorite comic book (http://homepage.mac.com/dmcduffie/site/BTYB10.html). (The sidekick's name is Rocket.)

--Cliffy

Askia

01-15-2005, 12:32 AM

Cliffy, I knew about Justice Thomas being a fan, but I had no idea Dwayne McDuffie had updated that site with the bit about Icon urging a full manual recount of the 2000 election. Good stuff.

Fenris. You can probably collect the whole Milestone imprint by hunting through quarter boxes. That's what I'm currently doing and I've only got a few gaps in my collection.

Kaitlyn. Sorry. We really hijacked the heck out of this thread, didn't we? Let us know what set you ended up reading first and how you liked it.

Kaitlyn

01-15-2005, 03:27 AM

Sorry I let this go so long without checking in. The Mrs. and I were watching Battlestar Galactica, both showings (cuddled in our chair and a half), because it was seriously freaking her out every time Boomer was on screen. I told her that now she should understand how I feel when we're watching Enterprise and Hoshi comes on screen.

Back to the subject at hand.

Every set is the complete set. Hoshi (still trying out names for the former Mrs. Six. I'm liking either Hoshi or Wicked Felina, the first because she looks enough like Linda Park that I secretly suspect she may have been cloned, and the second because it would annoy the hell out of her) apparently had no idea what she was buying. She went to Popular Comics on eBay, did a search for trade paperback sets, organized the sets by price, and started buying starting with the most expensive until she reached her budget limit.

Then she did the same with the Hardback sets. She got me the Legion 1-12, Fantastic Four 1-7, and Spider-Man 1-6 sets. That Legion set is awfully enticing, but yeesh, 3000 pages? I think that might tax even my love of everything Legion. Well, except for the newest version; somebody has obviously kidnapped Mark Waid, because he really isn't capable of writing this badly.

Askia: Don't worry about it. I love this stuff.

The Preacher and Sandman stacks are about the same amount of reading. I didn't add them up, but they appear to be somewhere between 2000 and 2500 pages total, with Preacher being slightly less. That'd be a tough read even with the 24 hours I'll have.

I scored it this way. The first two listed for each suggestion got one point, if only one was listed, it got one point.

Final Tally:

Sandman: 10
Preacher: 8
Transmetropolitan: 7

Mrs. Six starts her first 12-hour shift at noon tomorrow, so there's still time to persuede me.

There are 11 Transmet books (and they're tiny, what do they have, like 2 comics per trade?), 1-10 and one numbered 0. Where does the 0 go?

RobuSensei

01-15-2005, 04:06 AM

Ooh, ooh, another vote for Sandman!

Although, whenever I introduced people to the Sandman series, I always started them with "Season of Mists..." Anyway, the first few chapters might seem kind of strange, but once you get to the eighth issue, "The Sound of Her Wings," whoo. That's where Gaiman really hit his stride. Have fun!

Kaitlyn

01-15-2005, 04:25 AM

Preacher - This is a pretty hefty read, simply in terms of sheer weight. Also, very much a "guy" comic. A lot of emphasis on standing by your buddies, treating your women right, be a stand-up guy, and kicking in the teeth of anyone who disrespects you and yours. If you enjoy John Wayne movies, even ironically, you'll probably enjoy Preacher. And don't let the manly-man stuff fool you. There's a very strong emotional heart to the piece, that ultimatly proves to be more important to the rather shallow "angry atheist" theme that starts out the series.

Are you implying that I'm some kind of ultra-feminine girly-girl with no interest in typical manly-man things? Huh? Well are you? If you are, that only goes to show that you've been reading my other threads carefully and are now plotting to use that information against me. Either that or you're flirting with me.

Nah, I like a good action story with guys sticking up for thier buddies and doing what's right, and protectin' their wimmin folk if it's done well. I enjoy any story that's told well enough.

There's an Isaac Asimov story, "In a Good Cause" I think is the title. The story deals with a statue being erected in honor of a freedom fighter who violently opposed what he felt was an oppressive state, using violence when necessary in opposition--he was, in effect, a terrorist. He failed utterly, and the government he failed to overthrow has created a utopia of peace, plenty, and freedom. He is honored not because he was right, but because he fought honorably for a good cause, and that alone makes him a hero. I like the story a lot, but strongly disagree with it's basic premise. A fan wrote in to Asimov when he was still writing editorials for Asimov's saying basically the same thing, and Asimov agreed with him. Asimov himself disagreed with the premise of his own story, but wrote it that way because the story didn't work otherwise.

What's my point here? Oh yeah. I like macho action stories, even though I have as thoroughly rejected the whole manly-man attitude as it is possible to do. It's the quailty of the story I care about.

And that stuff about the story having an emotional core? You think that's going to make the story more attractive to me because I'm a girly girl and that's what we like, don't you? Well, I suppose it's hard to argue with the truth.

SolGrundy

01-15-2005, 04:51 AM

Darn, I'm too late. I can't let that stop me from voicing my opinion, though:

Hellboy is the greatest comic book series ever made. Anyone who tells you otherwise, well, I'm sure he means well but he's mistaken. Mike Mignola is a brilliant artist, of course, and it's a shame he had John Byrne write the first storyline, because it turns out Mignola's a brilliant writer as well. He's got the rarest thing for comic book creators: a pitch-perfect sense of humor. Not too obvious, not too corny, not too desperate to be hip and edgy, just funny. He's just great at setting up mood, as well -- all that Lovecraftian end-of-the-world horror usually never works on me, because there's no relevance. Mignola knows exactly how to put everything in perspective.

The Sandman is a phenomenal body of work too, of course. I can't imagine tackling it at this point, though. I keep meaning to dive back into TPB's, because although I own every issue of the comic, they're scattered about the United States. I know that I'd enjoy it if I started reading them again, but it just seems like work.

Cliffy

01-16-2005, 12:04 PM

She got me the Legion 1-12, Fantastic Four 1-7, and Spider-Man 1-6 sets.

Damn.

What's Mrs. Six's occupation -- bank robber?

--Cliffy

Miller

01-16-2005, 01:23 PM

Are you implying that I'm some kind of ultra-feminine girly-girl with no interest in typical manly-man things? Huh? Well are you? If you are, that only goes to show that you've been reading my other threads carefully and are now plotting to use that information against me. Either that or you're flirting with me.

Oh, c'mon. You're a hot Asian chick who reads comic books. Why on Earth would I want to flirt with you?

;)

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 02:23 AM

Damn.

What's Mrs. Six's occupation -- bank robber?

She's a pediatric oncology nurse--she works in a children's cancer ward.

We're DINKs (Dual Income professionals, No Kids). This would ordinarily give us a fairly sizable disposable income, but I was improperly terminated last year. When the suit against my school district was settled, (there was no finding of wrongdoing on their part) I got my job back with a pretty good settlement. Enough of a settlement to put us over the top on something very important to me that we had been saving for for several years now, and a little left over. After putting a reasonable amount back for emergencies, we split the rest to buy something frivilous--something neither of us has been able to do for some two years now becuase I've been a nearly obsessive miser.

I bought a pinball machine. And a bunch of shoes.

She bought me the comics. And some really nice Egyptian cotton sheets for the bed.

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 03:15 AM

Oh, c'mon. You're a hot Asian chick who reads comic books. Why on Earth would I want to flirt with you?

See, that's what I'd expect, but all the guys at the comic shop ever do is stare, then look away when I catch them.

I was joking about being offended by the manly-man stuff, obviously, and that is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for to help me make an informed choice, so please don't take the following as meaning that I was in any way put off by your description.

That said, I'm a bit curious about whether you'd have phrased it the same way a month ago when I was regular guy Number Six, and not self professed girly-girl Kaitlyn. One of the things that intrigues me about my current situation is how men and women are treated differently, and I'm curious as to whether knowing my true gender affected how you decided to describe things. I won't be offended either way, but it just struck me as a way of putting things that might not have been the same if I'd been a guy.

Everyone: Thank you for all of the input. I had decided to tackle Transmetropolitan first and save the longer, more complex stuff for this summer, or maybe tackle Sandman one book a weekend until I finish it, then reread in one big chunk this summer. I have some major surgery coming up which will involve a quite lengthy recovery, so I won't be teaching summer school, and will need something to occupy me.

With that in mind, Mrs. Six has enough dough left in her Paypal account to get one more expensive set, or two of the less expensive ones of my choice. Because I didn't go with the majority on those I already have, I'll let the majority choose which set will be my last.

Any one of the following:

Star Wars: A Long Time Ago

Hellblazer

Blade: The Immortal

Lone Wolf and Cub

Or any two of these:

Books of Magic

Groo

Lucifer

Elfquest

American Flagg HC

Kamino Neko

01-17-2005, 04:43 AM

Is Blade: The Immortal a title I'm unfamiliar with, or a miscommunication of the title of Blade of The Immortal?

If the former, I reccomend Elfquest and Lucifer. In the latter, I can't really decide whether I'd reccomend BotI or Elfquest more.

I've gone through phases that I was obsessive about both. Elfquest has a wonderfully developed world, and BotI has a slightly tighter story - since it has to spend less time on the world-building, and has a smaller regular cast. The singles of BotI included a little glossary of Japanese terms that may be unfamiliar, I don't know if the collections do, too. The art in both is great (although very different).

Lucifer, if you get it, should be saved until after Sandman - or at least after a particular collection (which will be obvious once you read it), for best effect.

Hellblazer and Groo are also good choices.

On the others: I was unimpressed with Books of Magic, haven't read American Flagg or Lone Wolf and Cub (In the latter case because I can't find it in anything resembling completion when I can afford it), and can't get enthused enough about Star Wars to reccomend it.

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 04:55 AM

Yes, that should be Blade of the Immortal.

ussentinel

01-17-2005, 09:19 AM

Any one of the following:

Star Wars: A Long Time Ago

Hellblazer

Blade: The Immortal

Lone Wolf and Cub

Or any two of these:

Books of Magic

Groo

Lucifer

Elfquest

American Flagg HC

I vote for: Lone Wolf and Cub; Groo and American Flagg. Elfquest is good, and I would've put it ahead of Lone Wolf and Cub. Why these books? I think it gives you a good cross-section of some very fine comics. Groo is a funny book and Mark Evanier is a clever writer. American Flagg is arguably Howard Chaykin's best work. Granted, everyone's tastes and opinions may vary, but there's mine.

I'm sorry to hear about your surgery. I hope everything goes well and you keep us all posted. Best wishes.

E-Sabbath

01-17-2005, 09:23 AM

I _hate_ to say "None of the Above", but I will, simply to be sure you're not missing the following:

Barnes and Noble: Ultimate Spider-Man Collection. Issue 1-50 of Ultimate Spider-Man, one volume, $50, ten percent off on the cover.
Barnes and Noble: Marvel Masterworks in softcover: Spidey, Uncanny X-Men, Uncanny X-Men staring with Giant Size, FF, Avengers, Daredevil
Astro City: Life in the Big City, and the following four.
Kingdom Come
Superman: Secret Identity. (The story of the Clark Kent of Earth-Prime. Kurt Busiek.)
Bone: Complete series in one TPB
Girl Genius. Various collections. Two, at the moment.
XXXenophile collections. It's Foglio, it's porn, it's healthy.
Superheroes by Robert Mayer. Reprinted recently. Seminal adult superhero novel.
Dirty Pair collections by Adam Warren.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:
PS238: With Liberty and Recess for all. You need this. You really really need this.

I'm sure you have at least half of these, but they're all darn good. Some are art.

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 04:52 PM

I _hate_ to say "None of the Above", but I will, simply to be sure you're not missing the following:

Barnes and Noble: Ultimate Spider-Man Collection. Issue 1-50 of Ultimate Spider-Man, one volume, $50, ten percent off on the cover.

I have the individual issues.

Barnes and Noble: Marvel Masterworks in softcover: Spidey, Uncanny X-Men, Uncanny X-Men staring with Giant Size, FF, Avengers, Daredevil

I have most of these in hardcover--many were part of Mrs. Six's christmas present.

Astro City: Life in the Big City, and the following four.

Has all of Astro City been collected? That's how I prefer to collect trade sets. If it's only the one volume, I'll hold off for now.

Kingdom Come: Have it.

Superman: Secret Identity: Noted. Will look for this one.

Bone: Complete series in one TPB: It's on order.

Girl Genius. Various collections. Two, at the moment.: Noted, will look for these.

XXXenophile collections. It's Foglio, it's porn, it's healthy.
Superheroes by Robert Mayer. Reprinted recently. Seminal adult superhero novel.
Dirty Pair collections by Adam Warren.

PS238: With Liberty and Recess for all. You need this. You really really need this.

Not familiar with these. I'll have to browse them at the store and see if they're my style.

E-Sabbath

01-17-2005, 05:07 PM

All of Astro City, except for the most recent storyarc, has been collected in trades. They are, in order:
Life in the Big City. First miniseries.
Confessions: First, what, eight issues of the second series. The Batman storyline.
Family Album. Second eight issues or so. Several smaller arcs. A Riddler type, a Spidey type, a FF story. (Astra's in there, right?)
Tarnished Angel: This one's noir. Robert Mitchum as a long suffering supervillian (Juggernaut/Wrecker type. Strong, but not too smart) gets out of jail, and tries to make a life for himself. But someone's killing his friends.
Each story is self-contained, they're about twenty bucks a pop, they're big and thick. The series isn't over, but each of the selections are self contained arcs, as the next arc has all new characters and plotlines. And it's the best superhero comics you'll ever find. Local Heroes will be the next TPB to come out.

PS238? http://ps238.com/
It's a grade school for the kids of superheroes. Speaking as the kid of a teacher, and a student teacher, it feels _right_. Same person who writes Nodwick. There's some introductory stuff on the page. Issue 0, mostly.

Oh, and how do you feel about classic Superman?
Alan Moore's Supreme
and
Alan Moore's Supreme: Story of the Year
are pretty much classic pre-crisis Superman stuff. Which reminds me. It's thin, but if you haven't read it, there was always one that had a special place in my heart. It was a two parter, one in Action, one in Superman. (Adventure?)
Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?
Alan Moore got to write the last pre-Crisis Superman Story. It's worthy.

Selkie

01-17-2005, 05:10 PM

Comments on a few of your potential purchases:

Hellblazer = I'm a major Hellblazer fan, but I've got to warn you: the TPB program is notoriously spotty and inconsistent. There are major gaps that should be traded but aren't, and trades of plenty of stuff that's mediocre. The first volume is particularly crippled, but trading only the first nine issues of an 11 - 12 issue arc. :smack:

Lone Wolf & Cub - Is almost universally acclaimed, but take a look at the dimensions of the books themselves. I find the tiny size almost impossible to read for extended periods of time. YMMV.

Books of Magic - I'm in a minority in enjoying this series. Consider yourself warned, most comics fans don't like it. There are only six TPBs, but about ten TPBs worth of material. The bits that aren't traded, aren't traded for a reason :)

American Flagg HC - Some really outstanding material, and this HC covers a complete story arc. There's lots more untraded material that comes after, but the very best of it is in here.

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 05:25 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your surgery. I hope everything goes well and you keep us all posted. Best wishes.

Thank you for your concern, and I most likely will post something after it's done.

Kaitlyn

01-17-2005, 05:52 PM

E-Sabbath: Thank you for the info. I'll look for the Astro City stuff. I have the Supreme trades, and they are indeed wonderful stuff, and the trade of Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow.

Selkie: Thank you for the info. The size of the Lone Wolf and Cub books doesn't bother me; I have small hands.

Miller

01-17-2005, 06:44 PM

See, that's what I'd expect, but all the guys at the comic shop ever do is stare, then look away when I catch them.

Well, consider the context in which they usually see hot Asian chicks. It's not that they're shy, it's that they're trying to keep an eye out for the inevitable tentacle monster attack.

I was joking about being offended by the manly-man stuff, obviously, and that is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for to help me make an informed choice, so please don't take the following as meaning that I was in any way put off by your description.

That said, I'm a bit curious about whether you'd have phrased it the same way a month ago when I was regular guy Number Six, and not self professed girly-girl Kaitlyn. One of the things that intrigues me about my current situation is how men and women are treated differently, and I'm curious as to whether knowing my true gender affected how you decided to describe things. I won't be offended either way, but it just struck me as a way of putting things that might not have been the same if I'd been a guy.

Yeah, I think I'd have described it in the same way. I've recommended Preacher on the boards before, and I think that's more or less my standard disclaimer. It's got a fairly particular approach to concept of manhood and male bonding that wouldn't appeal to a lot of people, of either gender. Sort of like Ernest Hemingway, really, except with more gags about male-on-male anal rape. Some people can really get into that sort of masculine mythos, even if, like myself, they have no interest in living it. Other people read it and roll their eyes so hard they damage their optic nerve. And I don't want anyone getting angry at me 'cause I made them go blind.

Of the other series you're considering, I've only read a few.

Hellblazer has significant cross-continuity with Swamp Thing, and some minor cross-continuity with Sandman and Lucifer. John Constantine was first introduced in the pages of Swamp Thing. Selkie covered the problems with the TPB collections, though. Still well worth it, in my opinion. Plus, if you read them now, you can be properly outraged by the Keanu Reeve hatchet job of a movie that's coming out this Summer.

Books of Magic I've only read a few of, and I have no idea what's going on. There's clearly significant story elements that do not appear in any of the BoM TPBs that I've been able to lay my hands on. What I've read has been quite good, but also frustrating. I'd pass on these for now.

Groo I loved when I was a kid, but haven't ever read as an adult. Don't know how well it holds up now, but I still use phrases from it in everyday life.

Lucifer is absolutely brilliant, but wait until you're done with Sandman before you get started on it.

Elfquest is probably the only one of the list that I can unreservedly recommend that you get right away. Just get the first four TPBs, though. That's the original story-arc. It's a wonderful epic with a perfect and immensely satisfying ending that is somewhat diminished by all the inferior (although still not exactly bad sequels). Plus, the coloring after the first four books takes a distinct downturn, and the last couple are in black and white. (The comic was originally in black and white, but the vivid palette of the TPBs is a vast improvement, IMHO)

Since someone else mentioned him, I'm going to second anything Phil Foglio has ever done. XXXenophile is the best kind of porn: the kind that's still completely entertaining on an entirely non-purient basis. It's funny and clever and well drawn on top of being sexy as hell. My only complaint is that it's very much created with the heterosexual male libido in mind, but like I said, the comics are fun as comics, not just as porn.

But mostly, Foglio is known for his non-adult work, such as Myth Adventures, Girl Genius, and Buck Godot. All of them are excellent and highly recommended. Myth Adventures is his comic book adaptation of the Robert Aspirin novel of the same name (he only did the adaptation of the first novel and, unsurprisingly, that's the only adaptation that's still in print) and is so much better than the original novel it's kinda embarassing. Buck Godot is an earlier work that's a mildly satirical space opera. The art's a little rough, but the wit is pretty good. Girl Genius I haven't actually read (shamefully enough) but odds are it kicks ass, too. He's also done a lot of other work, such as the What's New? with Phil and Dixie strip that used to run in Dragon magazine, and a passle of Magic: the Gathering cards. He's easily one of my favorite comic artists, and should be much, much more famous than he is. (And he's not exactly obscure, either.)

Kurt Busiek's Astro City is also crazy brilliant, but I'll let someone else extol its virtues, which are many.

cmkeller

01-18-2005, 12:33 AM

Simply to add to Miller's comments on Phil Foglio: he also did two mini-series for DC, Angel and the Ape and Stanley and his Monster, both of which are nothing short of fantastic, though neither has been collected as a trade paperback. Nonetheless, once you finish Sandman, I urge you to try and get your hands on the SahM back-issues, as it plays with the conventions of the DC mystical-horror-Vertigo universe in very amusing ways.

Kaitlyn

01-18-2005, 02:42 AM

Yeah, I think I'd have described it in the same way. I've recommended Preacher on the boards before, and I think that's more or less my standard disclaimer. It's got a fairly particular approach to concept of manhood and male bonding that wouldn't appeal to a lot of people, of either gender. Sort of like Ernest Hemingway, really, except with more gags about male-on-male anal rape. Some people can really get into that sort of masculine mythos, even if, like myself, they have no interest in living it.

Ah, thank you. That's exactly how I feel about it.

Cliffy

01-18-2005, 09:06 AM

E-Sabbath

01-18-2005, 12:55 PM

I blame Phil for getting me into Magic: The Gathering. That said...
If you liked What's New with Phil and Dixie (Which, by the way, came back in the pages of The Duelist, the M:TG magazine, then transitioned back to Dragon for a few good years), you'll like Nodwick, the story of a long suffering henchman to an adventuring party. Same author as PS238.
http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/
(Hm. Phil and Kaja may not want to talk to Aaron for a while after PS238 #10 comes out. This, I have to see.) If you like Phil, you'll like Aaron. As far as who's better, Phil's been doing it _longer_, and is more polished. Aaron's better than Phil was when he started, though.

I do want to hear Kaitlyn's opinion of PS238, though. It's so rare to find someone who reads superhero comics _and_ has teaching experience. Irate mothers whose children are, clearly, prodigies... tote bags... playground dynamics... and the blue denim skirt. All there.

Kaitlyn

01-19-2005, 01:58 AM

And you wonder why the nerds blow their stack when they see you together? :)

Well, we're nerds, too. :p

---------------------------------

Here's what I ended up getting:

XXXenophile 1-6

and

Mac Raboy's Flash Gordon 1-4. (yeah, I know it wasn't one I listed, but I saw it at the bookstore and the artwork as gorgeous.

I put the Astro City trades in my Amazon save for later cart.

I couldn't find ps238 listed either on eBay or Amazon, and the online store from their web site seems to be down.

I've made note of the other stuff.

SolGrundy

01-19-2005, 06:41 PM

My take on some of the other titles that've been mentioned:

Blade of the Immortal: I've never wanted to burn a book as much as the first volume of this. I saw it and thought it was an interesting concept, kind of a more "hip" version of Lone Wolf and Cub that had more magic in it. Instead, I thought it was self-consciously "edgy," ridiculously violent and mean-spirited, and horribly misogynistic. I don't think I'm a prude about such things; there's been stuff in Preacher, for instance, that genuinely offended me and I found it difficult to read, but I still respected what he was trying to do with the book. Blade of the Immortal is just trash, IMO, with no redeeming value.

Hellblazer: This is one of the few series that I collected every issue of, up until around the end of Garth Ennis' run. The Jamie Delano years are great, but as already mentioned haven't all been collected in TPB format. A great starting point for this book is Dangerous Habits, which I recommend to anyone, even those who don't have any interest in the rest of the series. It collects Garth Ennis' first few issues of the book and is just one of the best story arcs ever done in comics, period.

Lone Wolf and Cub: I've always thought of it as a comic book version of an Akira Kurosawa samurai movie. If you like Yojimbo and Sanjuro, you'll probably like Lone Wolf and Cub. Very slow paced with flashes of extreme violence, told in a very cinematic way.

Kamino Neko

01-19-2005, 07:13 PM

there's been stuff in Preacher, for instance, that genuinely offended me and I found it difficult to read, but I still respected what he was trying to do with the book. Blade of the Immortal is just trash, IMO, with no redeeming value.

Funny. I have exactly - and I mean exactly - the opposite reaction.

While Blade makes me cringe, sometimes, there's a story to it that makes it worth reading, and characters that I cared about what happened, even if I didn't always like them.

Preacher is the biggest piece of garbage I've ever bothered trying to read. There wasn't a story worth reading, and the only person I cared about what happened to them one way or the other was that one in-bred brother, who I wanted dead just so the bestiality discussions would at least die down a bit.

Samura was telling a brutal story (it's about revenge, murder, and suicide, after all) about less than pleasant people. Ennis was doing his best to be offensive for no good reason, far as I could tell.