deemed racist by vocabulary

[fusoya]

over the past couple of days, I have read some threads on SDMB dealing with racism.....from Howard Hugues saying "have you ever slept with a colored woman" with an emphasis on the word colored, to use of the word "Jap" in top 40, in which individuals are labeled racist for using certain words as part of their vocabulary. They may be politically incorrect, but how does it make someone a racist to use an outdated word that can be offensive to some people? The definition of racism is believing one ethnic group to be superior to another, simply by birth. Saying "have you ever slept with an african-american woman" as a cause of scandel is just as racist. The comedian Sarah Silverman was labeled a racist after she said "I love chinks!" during an interview, not because she was comparing asians to other ethnic groups, but because she chose to use that word rather asian, oriental, etc....

I myself stay clear of the terms "XXX-American" because I get just as worried about offending someone by using that term, and it also has assumptions attached which could also be considered racist by some.....for example, I have a good friend who is dark-skinned. I would be incorrect to call him an African-American because his family is from Panama, and have lived there for over 100 years. That is pretty far from Africa. However, there are lots of people who call him just that, thinking that they're abstraining from racist activity, when they're actually just assuming that all dark-skinned people are African.

And then we have my second grade teacher, someone who should have been sent out to pasture long before I was born. In our social studies class, she taught us that all people were either white, black or Chinese. She never explained that whites were better than blacks, or that blacks were better than "Chinese", but would she still be considered a racist?

And then we have my mother, who called me insensitve for using the term Tidal Wave. Insensitive to WHO, scientists? She, a former kindergarden teacher, still won't accept that the term Brontosaurus has been retired, due to the Apotosaurus being the same animal, so is this the pot calling the kettle black?

Oh yeah, I've also heard that using that cliche is racist too.

anyway, thoughts?

[UrbanChic]

If you could link to a few threads in which someone was accused of being racist simply for using outdated language, it would be helpful.

In my opinion, the word racist gets bandied about way too much. Calling a group of people by the 'wrong' name (chinks, for example) is insensitive and just plain being an asshole, in most cases. Such usage does not necessarily mean the speaker is racist, however.

[Misnomer]

The comedian Sarah Silverman was labeled a racist after she said "I love chinks!" during an interview, not because she was comparing asians to other ethnic groups, but because she chose to use that word rather asian, oriental, etc....

Calling a group of people by the 'wrong' name (chinks, for example) is insensitive and just plain being an asshole, in most cases.
I'm not sure exactly why, but I feel compelled to clarify the Sarah Silverman thing: she did not use the word "chinks" as an alternative to "asian" or "oriental," she used it deliberately and ironically. It was part of a joke about racism that a bunch of oversensitive people didn't get.

I can't provide a cite, other than to say that Silverman has been a guest on the Independent Film Channel's show Dinner for Five (http://www.dinnerforfive.com), and the incident came up during one of the tapings (Jon Favreau hosts the show, and it's him and four other movie people having dinner and talking about filmmaking . . . great show, btw). So while I didn't see the original interview, I heard Silverman herself explain what happened (and she was backed up by at least one of the other guests, who had seen the interview).

[PussyCow]

I agree with you that it is ridiculous. Particularly the "pot calling the kettle black" one. It's black from soot from the wood-burning stove, moron. Oh and "niggardly". So now we have to avoid all words that remotely sound like words that some shallow people think are offensive? Oh-oh. Then I'm in a lot of trouble for saying the word "moron", aren't I? What, do I hate mormons or something? God-hating idiot. Uh-oh. I did it again. "Idiot" refers to someone of challenged intelligence. So, now I hate handicapped people, too, huh? Or is "handicapped people" offensive? How the fuck am I supposed to know? Why don't we all try to act more like human beings to each other and acknowledge that we are aware of people's intentions when they speak. Cuz believe me, if I want to insult you, there will be no question in you head about it. I will precede it with some colorful (not colored) adjectives to ensure my point gets across.


BTW, feel free to call me "tomato" or "broad". I trust you mean it with all the flattering intentions.

[fusoya]

I realize now that the Howard Hughes discussion was actually on IMDB, not here, but it can be read here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338751/board/nest/14891925). There are plenty of doper-discussed examples in this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=297532) as well though

[fusoya]

I'm not sure exactly why, but I feel compelled to clarify the Sarah Silverman thing: she did not use the word "chinks" as an alternative to "asian" or "oriental," she used it deliberately and ironically. It was part of a joke about racism that a bunch of oversensitive people didn't get.


Yes, you are in right in that. But there was a huge backlash, with cries of her being racist for using that word out loud, despite the intention. I had (have) the hots for her like crazy, so I payed pretty close attention to all the photographic news articles and letters to the editor that started popping up. And I didn't get into this in the OP, but some of these articles (this was a couple years ago, so I can't provide any solid cites other than my memory) got into the fact that her act was full of racial-Jewish jokes, with most opinions that it was okay for her to tell those since she was Jewish herself, but with other opinions that it was just more evidence that she was a racist. It's not about her being Jewish or being racist, it's about her being a comedian. Chris Rock owes a good portion of his success to his catchphrase "I hate niggers", but he didn't say it to sound racist or to point out his own race, but to be funny. These two people just aren't the kind of funny for sensitive types who can't see the line between telling a joke and burning a cross on someone's lawn.

[Eve]

In our social studies class, she taught us that all people were either white, black or Chinese.

That is the funniest thing I have heard in ages! What was the class' reaction? Laughter, or stunned silence? I think even by second grade, the kids would have realized what an utterly bizarre statement that was.

[Anaamika]

And then we have my second grade teacher, someone who should have been sent out to pasture long before I was born. In our social studies class, she taught us that all people were either white, black or Chinese. She never explained that whites were better than blacks, or that blacks were better than "Chinese", but would she still be considered a racist?


Wow, what does that make me?

[jimpatro]

Originally posted by Eve,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusoya
In our social studies class, she taught us that all people were either white, black or Chinese.

That is the funniest thing I have heard in ages! What was the class' reaction? Laughter, or stunned silence? I think even by second grade, the kids would have realized what an utterly bizarre statement that was.

Actually she was just referring to Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid. But in terms school kids could grasp.

[Clothahump]

Remember the big fooraw a while back in Washington?

Washington, DC's black Mayor, Anthony Williams, gladly accepted the resignation of his white staff member, David Howard, because Mr. Howard uttered the word 'niggardly' in a private staff meeting.

cite (http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm)

People are so touchy that they get offended even when someone uses the language properly.

And don't get me started on the inanity that is the Hyphenated-American. If someone refers to themself as African-American, I always ask them if they hold dual citizenship with the USA and a country on the continent of Africa. So far, no one has said yes.

[Zsofia]

My 91 year old grandfather says "colored". That was the polite term he was taught. He uses it in precisely the same way you or I might say "black" - "Which nurse was it?" "The colored lady." Etc. While it's outdated, the usage is not racist or even really impolite. (To be honest, I'd like to see a return of "colored" instead of "black" or "African-American" or what have you. It's more accurate and quite lovely, really, except that it carries unattractive baggage.)

My grandmother on the other side, who died ten years ago at the age of 90, used the "n-word". Mostly in the same way that Grandpa uses "colored", but it always shocked me. My grandmother and everybody on my father's side of the family is/was deepy Southern, while my mother hails from Pittsburgh (with her father). She was also deeply shocked by my grandmother but always told me "that's just the word they used back then." As an adult, looking back, I'm pretty sure that was never the polite term for anybody. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was, but I just don't get that feeling. And the funny thing is, my grandmother would have known a lot more black people than my grandfather - my dad grew up a sharecropper in impoverished south Georgia, at the absolute bottom of the white social system. They were poorer than you can really imagine. I've often associated my grandmother's, er, poor descriptor choices with the story Gene Hackman tells in Mississippi Burning about his dad and the black guy with the mule.

[Eve]

(To be honest, I'd like to see a return of "colored" instead of "black" or "African-American" or what have you. It's more accurate and quite lovely, really, except that it carries unattractive baggage.)

I've always felt the same way, and wonder why "colored"—a lovely, descriptive and seemingly complimentary word—was phased out in favor of "black," which is inaccurate and has bad connotations ("black-hearted," etc.). How can something that's "colored" be anything but lovely? Indeed, it's almost slighting to those of us who aren't! (What are we, "blank?")

Sort of like the term "little people," which baffles me.

[Mississippienne]

I've tried to use "African-American" before but the word galls me. It's because where I was raised, A-A was only used to mock blacks. Oh look, the African-American wants reparations. His granddaddy was satisfied with 40 acres and a mule! The only term that wasn't dismissive or derogatory was "black". Your neighbor could be black. Your friend could be black. We're white, they're black. Everybody's got a color. Pretty equal.

When I went up North, everyone took great pains to say African-American. I tried to, but I couldn't. For me, I've only heard the word used with disrespect. If someone asked me to use it, I would. But so far, I've never met anyone who took offense to "black".

[Askia]

Eve and Zsofia. I'm tempted to quip that it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand... Still.

Negroes switched to black because it's the equal and opposite of white. "Black" and "white" form a dichotomy in the English language that shape (prehaps unintentionally) the basis of ethnocentristic / racist thought.

"Colored" hasn't aged well. It's to accomodating and vague as a single racial descriptor, as it tends to lump peoples as disparate as the Congolese, Chinese, Chileans and Cherokee in one monolithic group. Me, I think black is beautiful.

You're not blank. You're white, with all the attended connotations of (let me consult my dictionary, here) "purity, unsullied, without malicious intent, clean, benevolent.)" I'm sure this list of attributes is longer in my unabridged dictionary.

Mississipenne. If you've never ONCE heard the term African-American used respectfully, "couldn't" use the term yourself, and think it's dismissive and deragotory and don't think 'black' is -- I suspect you have some problems with the political ideology behind the use of the term. I doubt I would ever say anyone else's term to describe themselves "galls me" just because it's changed. I never got this bent out of shape over Indians calling themselves Native Americans or hillbillies calling themselves Appalachians.

[GorillaMan]

"Colored" hasn't aged well. It's to accomodating and vague as a single racial descriptor, as it tends to lump peoples as disparate as the Congolese, Chinese, Chileans and Cherokee in one monolithic group.
I agree. 'Coloured' has implications of 'otherness', of 'unusual'. It precludes a truly equal status.

[seosamh]

My knowledge of everyday terms used in America is confined to what I hear on the TV and the odd personal visit to the States. But am I wrong to think that there has been a gradual tendency to say "person of X" to denote someone's ethnic origin or physical appearance?

For example, there's a fly-on-the-wall documentary series shown in the UK which tracks the daily doing of Southwest Airlines. One episode featured a rather large passenger whom groundstaff thought was so huge he would not fit into a standard seat, hence they were trying to charge him extra. He was referred throughout as being "a person of size".

About 20 years ago my work exposed me to crime reports relating to the London Underground. These had used the term "person of colour" to describe certain offenders back in the 60s and 70s, but by the 80s this had been replaced by the more prosaic "black". I have no idea what word is used today.

It's always going to be difficult to find the right words to use and I'm just happy that it's not me deciding what those words are!

[PoorYorick]

That is the funniest thing I have heard in ages! What was the class' reaction? Laughter, or stunned silence? I think even by second grade, the kids would have realized what an utterly bizarre statement that was.
I'm wondering if it was a misconstrual of the oversimplified anthropological racial breakdown of everyone in the world: Caucasoid, Negoid, and Mongoloid.

[PussyCow]

I agree. 'Coloured' has implications of 'otherness', of 'unusual'. It precludes a truly equal status.
Oh is that right? Well, then, so is the term "girl". Because we all know how Ahnold uses the term to describe a weak person - "girlie man".

Any word that describes anything should then be deemed precluding an equal status. You acknowledge a difference between people? Racist.

[AskNott]

When I was in school with black kids in the 1950s, "colored" was the most polite thing you could call a dark-skinned person. In the fifth grade, I was sitting next to a white boy who was trading insults with a colored girl. He ran out of harmless insults, and he called her black. She was furious. I was in high school with the same girl. In the late 1960s, she proudly called herself black. I called her black, too; I go with the flow.

So, when Howard Hughes said "a colored woman," it wasn't an insult. Interracial dating was very unusual when I was in high school. Those who did it were shunned by many, and the word "creeper" was whispered behind them in school hallways. I didn't have that prejudice, but I didn't date any black girls. I was a shy kid, and I wasn't going to risk ridicule just to date a black girl. I got plenty of ridicule without that.

[Askia]

Oh is that right? Well, then, so is the term "girl". Because we all know how Ahnold uses the term to describe a weak person - "girlie man". So is calling a grown man, "boy." You can't always equate racial labels with gender ones.

Anything that describes anything should then be deemed precluding an equal status. You acknowledge a difference between people? Racist. It depends on what you think that difference is, surely? If you think this through a bit, PussyCow, you'll see it's too extreme to be true. Lots of words simply aren't equitable. Remember when wedding vows used to end with, "I now pronounce you man and wife?"

[NinetyWt]

Askia I think what Mississippienne refers to is the term being used by white folks - she interprets it as something being used to describe black folks, not something they themselves use. She says that it was used mockingly, that's why she's hesitant to use it, not because she has issues with the "ideology" of it. At least, that's how it looks to me. :)

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

Just after I got a computer, I made the discovery that Americans with vague Irish connections were much more touchy about Irish jokes than anyone is over here - most Irish comedians, North and South, make a living telling 'Irish' jokes.

I joined a couple of sci-fi groups, star-trek and Babylon 5 ones, and made the mistake of sending a Xmas card to one of the groups, putting in the subject line 'A Xmas card from N. Ireland'. The card was a N.I. cartoon from the BBC NI website - an Irish santa having a flying accident with his sleigh, if I remember rightly.

I woke up on Xmas morning to find I'd been banned from the group - accused of racism against people from NI. I wrote to both the mods., explaining that I actually lived here. For some reason this made things worse - I was accused of being ashamed of my country and posting a racist card which implied that Irish people [it was Santa, for goodness sake] were too thick to fly a sleigh without crashing into a mountain. The amount of vitriol in those e-mails was OTT, so I left every other sci-fi group I was in - I was so disgusted.

My other experience of being accused of racism was on a political group [NOT this one] where I posted against the invasion of Iraq before it happened. I was called fascist, Nazi, anti-american, racist - you name it. The final straw was when I was nicknamed 'The Irish Peace Nazi'. When that happened I left the group and deleted everything I'd ever posted there. Why is it that I can't be opposed to the actions of the american government without being called anti-american?? To me, anyway, they are not the same thing at all.

In my experience it's too easy sometimes to tag people from another part of the world, with a different viewpoint, as racists ......... without even trying to take what they're saying in context.

[Askia]

NinetyWt. It "galls" her. The people she grew up with used "African-American" to mock reparations. She moved North but she'd rather just stick to black. I get it.

I just doubt that's whole story.

[FriarTed]

Fun Sarah Silverman fact- she also said that as a Jewish woman, she was disturbed by the attention given by the TV network to her Asian critics because it showed how her fellow Jews were losing control over the media. :D

She said it funnier tho.

[Mississippienne]

Wow. Perhaps I was overly vague in my original post. Yes, I am a white Southerner. I grew up hearing my relatives talking about blacks in very cruel ways. They never said "African-American" in a respectful sense. Even as an adult, when I say "African-American" I hear their mocking echoing in my ears. In contrast, I heard "black" as a neutral term, a counterpart to "white", and that's ingrained in my mind as the appropriate word.

I did move up North for a year, but have since returned to the South. I'll be the first to tell you I'm not perfect, but I would never purposefully discriminate against people based on race or insult anyone with racial epitephs. If I insulted you Askia, it was not intended.

[FriarTed]

NinetyWt. It "galls" her.

That is SOOO hurtful to the French!

[NinetyWt]

I get an idea, too, askia that Mississippienne is a good bit younger than I am (I'll be 45 next month W00t!). The kids of my teenagers' generation honestly do not "get" what we older ones went thru. I appreciate and respect your honest question, but I don't think Mississippienne is guilty of that. Although I DO know plenty of people who are.

[tomndebb]

Negroes switched to black because it's the equal and opposite of white. "Black" and "white" form a dichotomy in the English language that shape (prehaps unintentionally) the basis of ethnocentristic / racist thought.

"Colored" hasn't aged well. It's to accomodating and vague as a single racial descriptor, as it tends to lump peoples as disparate as the Congolese, Chinese, Chileans and Cherokee in one monolithic group. Me, I think black is beautiful.The black/white dichotomy had a lot to do with the change to black in the late 1960s: one complaint was that whites were identified in the papers as simply "white" while blacks were identified by the (at that time polite) "Negro" and there was a feeling that using the "scientific" term made blacks appear to be a group that was only to be studied, not treated as equal citizens.

I knew quite a few people, (many of them from that group) who would have liked to have seen "colored" remain the most common word. However, there was way too much baggage associated with "colored" because all the Jim Crow signs separating rest rooms, drinking fountains, and building entrances and prohibiting certain actions used the word "colored."

.If someone refers to themself as African-American, I always ask them if they hold dual citizenship with the USA and a country on the continent of Africa. So far, no one has said yes. Interesting that you don't make a point of saying the same thing to Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc. (Otherwise, why do you only raise the issue, here, in regards to blacks?)

[Krokodil]

Remember the big fooraw a while back in Washington?

cite (http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm)

People are so touchy that they get offended even when someone uses the language properly.

I couldn't work up a bit of sympathy for that guy. He knew very well what "niggardly" sounded like to black listeners, and his "Look it up in the dictionary" defense ranks up there with "But it also means 'female dog'!"

[Askia]

If I insulted you Askia, it was not intended. Oh, stop. Look, I overreacted, first to "galls me" (which I associate with white folks' consternation with uppitty Negroes. That's my hang up.) and then I read your post "hearing" your words in the most bubbleheaded backwood Tupelo accent I could recall. That's me, not you. I'm very sorry.

Boy I'm gonna grow up to be one hell of a churlish old fuck. I need to stay away from these race threads for awhile.

NinetyWt. Thanks for playing peacemaker, making me re-read my posts.

tomndebb. Oh, THANK YOU for mentioning Jim Crow Laws and the 'Colored' signs. I knew I forgot something.

[Eve]

However, there was way too much baggage associated with "colored" because all the Jim Crow signs separating rest rooms, drinking fountains, and building entrances and prohibiting certain actions used the word "colored."

. Interesting that you don't make a point of saying the same thing to Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc.

Ah! I too had (mercifully) forgotten the "colored only" signs. Yeah, that would've put an onus on that word!

As for your other point, though, I have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish-American, Polish-American, Italian-American, etc., unless they are specifically asked about their ancestry. I've certainly never called myself a Russian/Transylvanian-American or an Eastern-European American, except jokingly in threads like this.

[fusoya]

That is the funniest thing I have heard in ages! What was the class' reaction? Laughter, or stunned silence? I think even by second grade, the kids would have realized what an utterly bizarre statement that was.

well, my classes from Pre-School up until 2nd grade consisted of an all white class (I grew up in Connecticut...probably the whitest state in the nation), except for one student who was from Brazil and would probably fall closest to Hispanic on the race chart, but his eyes were enough to make the teacher think he was "chinese". Not old or educated enough to know that he and his culture were being insulted (and I guess he never told his parents), he let himself be the butt of plenty of jokes. He also shared the first name as me, so I became known as the white one, and him the chinese one. *I* realized that there were many more than three races, but I also knew plenty of things that my teacher didn't know, and trying to correct her always managed to get ME into trouble (damn, I could write an entire thread on things I wish I knew I had the power to do when I was in elementary school just by complaining to the right people), so I wasn't about to miss recess or get my ear pinched and pulled (yes, she did that too. I'm guessing she probably got her paddle taken away a couple years before I got there) just to update her on the advances in race classification.

[fusoya]

Why is it that I can't be opposed to the actions of the american government without being called anti-american?? To me, anyway, they are not the same thing at all.


Dude, being opposed to the actions of the american government is the
definition of being American!

[tomndebb]

I have never heard anyone refer to themselves as Irish-American, Polish-American, Italian-American, etc., unless they are specifically asked about their ancestry. Alternatively, how often have you heard a person casually refer to themselves as "African-American" when the subject was not concerned with ancestry? Everyone I know whose ancestors were imported from Africa use the word "black." (I know that there are a few people who actually use "African-American," but their presence tends to be way overplayed by folks who decide to take offense at it.) On those occasions where the subject of ethnicity comes up, I don't have a real problem with a person using "African-American." We have lots of Italian-American and Polish-American neighborhood restaurants in Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. My boss's office is less than a mile from the British-American Club and Cleveland has two separate Irish-American clubs (east side and west side; not pretty).

This, of course, was Jackson's problem with presenting that term: he lives in Chicago and hyphenated-Americans are actually pretty comon in Rust-Belt cities. I don't fault Jackson, so much, for just not paying attention to how his language would sound outside the Rust-Belt, but the massive media swing to mindlessly follow his usage when the overwhelming majority of people who would be so described still prefer "black" was rather stupid.