Homo Sapiens / Neanderthal hybrids?

[Rune]

New Scientist:
The ancestors of today's Europeans may have interbred with another early human species, which would account for a peculiar stretch of DNA

THE ancestors of today's Europeans interbred with another early human species. That's one explanation being proposed to explain the discovery of a peculiar stretch of DNA in some modern Europeans.
As part of an extensive gene-mapping programme, researchers at deCODE Genetics in Reykjavik, Iceland, have been searching for places in the human genome where chunks of DNA containing many genes get turned back-to-front. One of these inversions, on chromosome 17, caught their eye because it turns up in about 20 per cent of Europeans, yet is rare in Africans and almost absent in Asians.
When the researchers looked at the families of nearly 30,000 Icelanders, they found that women who have the inversion had, on average, 3.5 per cent more children than women who did not. "That is a very significant impact when you think of an evolutionary timescale," says Kari Stefansson, deCODE's chief executive.http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524833.800

Well they don’t specify Neanderthal in that article but if not Neanderthal what else could it be? I thought the general consensus on this, for some reason controversial, issue was that no such hybridisation had taken place. Which was also the conclusion of another German DNA (mitochondrial) study a few years back. On the other hand Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals did coexists in Europe for many thousands of years and there were some very interesting finds of possible hybrid bones in Portugal a few years back, some speculate red hair and freckles are Neanderthal traits – and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal?

[BrainGlutton]

. . . and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal?

Let's just see what happens if they ever do find a living population of Homo florensiensis! There's already a subgenre of "dwarf porn," so why not "hobbit porn"? :D

[BrainGlutton]

Sorry, that's Homo floresiensis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

[SteveG1]

I see no reason for Neanderthals and Cromagnons to not interbreed. If you peel away the charicatures, they probably were not very different in genetic makeup or appearance. Look at the range of human appearance today - tall, short, thin, heavy, muscular, etc. On the average, Neanderthals are believed to be more muscular (better looking?) while Cromagnons are believed to have finer features (better looking?). Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute.

[Polycarp]

Neandertals and modern humans coexisted in SW Europe for over 10,000 years, as has been known for 25 years now. A cave at Zafarraya (http://www.archaeology.org/9509/newsbriefs/neander.html), Spain, near Malaga, has Neandertal remains down to about 30,000 YBP.

There seems to be significant evidence (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/13/7117) for Neandertal/modern hybrids, as referenced in this 1999 article by Tattersall and Schwartz.

[Rune]

Let's just see what happens if they ever do find a living population of Homo florensiensis! There's already a subgenre of "dwarf porn," so why not "hobbit porn"? :DYeah. Not to speak of furries. And it’s got to say something about us when “zoophilia” and “bestiality” returns more than seven million hits on google.

This link (from wikipedia) has a reconstruction of a Neanderthal boy. Looks a bit strange at first, but I recon he could walk down the street without much notice. http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

Older Wikipedia versions of articles on Neanderthals actually had a fair bit about hybridisation, now any mention of this has been edited out. I should have expected at least a refutation. Is it possible to view older Wikipedia articles – or only the comments?

[Broomstick]

I seem to recall reading that there is now some evidence that populations of H. sapiens and H. erectus may have co-existed in close proximity, but that evidence is Asian, not European. Still, if you're looking possibilities that may be another one.

[BrainGlutton]

Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute.

How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was? Or even whether they had hair at all? It wouldn't be apparent from their bones, would it?

[Demorian]

Probalem #1 of this idea is that there is no archaeological evidence supporting interbreeding. No skeletal remains have been found that suggest a Neandetal crossbreeding. Of course, that doesn't rule it out, but it restricts it to hypothesis.

[levdrakon]

let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal?

I'd say it's more likely Homo Sapiens women are hussies, and will screw anything remotely human-like, as evidenced by some of the knuckle-dragging thugs I've seen my women friends date. ;)

[SusanStoHelit]

How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was? Or even whether they had hair at all? It wouldn't be apparent from their bones, would it?

My guess is that there are more genetic similarities between Neanderthals and red-haired human populations than with other groups, but I had never heard that factoid before today.

[Demorian]

Where the hell did this "Neandertals had red hair and freckles" meme come from, anyway?

Anyway, looking on actual fact, there are vast differences in bone structure, notably in the skull, around the eyes and jaw, as well as brain size. As I said, there no shred of evidence of any of these traits being found among their contemporaries, or evidence that interbreeding was even possible (given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)... there are probably a number of things that don't fit, and absolutely nothing aside from proximity that does fit.

[BrainGlutton]

(given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)...

Never heard that before. Cite?

In Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax trilogy (about the discovery of a parallel-universe Earth where humans went extinct and Neanderthals survived to develop a civilization), it turn out that the two species have different numbers of chromosomes, so interbreeding is impossible without genetic-engineering technology. (There's absolutely no proof of that, of course, it's just a plot device, but worth considering as a hypothesis.) The first volume, Hominids, won Sawyer the 2003 Hugo Award for Best Novel.

[Demorian]

Never heard that before. Cite?
Um, off the top of my head, The Third Chimpanzee. I could look for others if you are one who finds Dr. Diamond untrustworthy, but I as I mentioned in another thread, I feel horrible, so it is movie and bed time after this post.

[elucidator]

... Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute.

We of the Speckled-American community find this sort of sterotyping offensive. Be assured that when we take over, your name is on The List.

[SteveG1]

How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was?
You can't know, but it was one of the speculations that came up. I've heard it before, and it is possible. Or, they could have all been dark haired and swarthy (pirates anyone?).

[aruvqan]

Where the hell did this "Neandertals had red hair and freckles" meme come from, anyway?

Anyway, looking on actual fact, there are vast differences in bone structure, notably in the skull, around the eyes and jaw, as well as brain size. As I said, there no shred of evidence of any of these traits being found among their contemporaries, or evidence that interbreeding was even possible (given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)... there are probably a number of things that don't fit, and absolutely nothing aside from proximity that does fit.

I find myself rather puzzled at the whole neanderthal redhead thing...please correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the neanderthal bony structure more robust that cromagnon? I do know the skull in the neanderthal is heavier and shaped mildly different from cromagnon...but whenI look at the stereotypical 'true redhead' I frequently see very gracile features - long slender faces, delicate bone structure, more 'elfin' if you want. I see the reconstructed neanderthals as more like Ron Perlman (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000579/) or Vin Diesel (http://imdb.com/name/nm0004874/)

[John Mace]

Probalem #1 of this idea is that there is no archaeological evidence supporting interbreeding. No skeletal remains have been found that suggest a Neandetal crossbreeding. Of course, that doesn't rule it out, but it restricts it to hypothesis.

Actually there is more archaelogical evidence than genetic evidence (evidence, not proof) for hybrids. Link (http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html)

I read the New Scientist article, and IIRC, there was mention that this data might suggest Erectus/Sapiens hybrids, not Neaderthal/Sapiens.

[John Mace]

On the other hand Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals did coexists in Europe for many thousands of years and there were some very interesting finds of possible hybrid bones in Portugal a few years back...

See the link in my pervious post.

...some speculate red hair and freckles are Neanderthal traits...

You are probably thinking of ideas postulated in the novel Dance of the Tiger (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520202775/qid=1106540699/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-3612279-5420826?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). Speculate is the proper word as there is absolutely no actual evidence support the claim.

and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal?

Screwing says nothing about the possiblility of producing viable offspring.

[SteveG1]

I see the reconstructed neanderthals as more like Vin Diesel (http://imdb.com/name/nm0004874/)
And is that a bad thing? Some people think Vin is sort of a hottie.

[dropzone]

Speculate is the proper word as there is absolutely no actual evidence support the claim.True, but it can be presumed that the Neanderthals, associated as they are with only a subarctic climate, would eventually evolve pale skin and hair (not wasting melenin and better for producing maximum Vitamin D while exposing minimum skin). Neanderthal reconstructions should be blondes or redheads. Freckles are just what happens on pale skin and other apes get them on their paler parts, too.Screwing says nothing about the possiblility of producing viable offspring.And that two subspecies can interbreed and produce viable offspring says nothing about how often that will occur. It could be that successful pregnancies only happen occasionally, which would be advantageous if the female were a hooker or otherwise was interested in sex without issue.

[John Mace]

True, but it can be presumed that the Neanderthals, associated as they are with only a subarctic climate, would eventually evolve pale skin and hair (not wasting melenin and better for producing maximum Vitamin D while exposing minimum skin). Neanderthal reconstructions should be blondes or redheads. Freckles are just what happens on pale skin and other apes get them on their paler parts, too.

Maybe. There are Asian populations that have lived in arctic conditions for long periods of time and yet still have black hair.

And that two subspecies can interbreed and produce viable offspring says nothing about how often that will occur. It could be that successful pregnancies only happen occasionally, which would be advantageous if the female were a hooker or otherwise was interested in sex without issue.

Personally, I find it hard to imagine that Neanderthal/Sapiens hybrids were not possible. But the fact is, there isn't any genetic evidence availbale that says it was. The fossil evidence for hybrids, although suggestive, is controversial and not broadly accepted. At this point we simply have to say that we don't know, and that we don't have enough data to know. It's reasonable to expect, though, that we should have much more definitive genetic evidence in the not to distance future.

[BrainGlutton]

It's reasonable to expect, though, that we should have much more definitive genetic evidence in the not to distance future.

:confused: Where are we supposed to get a sample of Neanderthal DNA?

[John Mace]

:confused: Where are we supposed to get a sample of Neanderthal DNA?

We've already gotten some from several specimens, although I think it has all been mtDNA. If we were to find a frozen fossil, as we have with mammoths, that would give us much better material. But I was actually thinking of techniques for DNA extration that might improve in the future, as well as a better understanding of the diversity of our own DNA.

[Blake]

Where the hell did this "Neandertals had red hair and freckles" meme come from, anyway?

Anyway, looking on actual fact, there are vast differences in bone structure, notably in the skull, around the eyes and jaw, as well as brain size. ....


Well I see this individual has been banned, but I'll correct this one anyway.


There were NOT vast differences in any physical traits between H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis. Certainly the classical Neandethals and modern Sapiens differ significantly. However both 'species' formed a spectrum, and Levantine Neanderthals and archaic cro-Magnon overlapped completely in every feature. IOW some Neanderthals would pass without comment even in today's world and 40, 000 years ago would have been considered extremely average people amongst cro-Magnons.

[Loopydude]

Thus far, the mtDNA data suggests that Neanderthals have not contributed to human ancestry, but rather share a common ancestor with humans, as some have speculated based on physiology. It's the strongest bit of data we have, and I think the best-supported hypothesis at this point is humans and Neanderthals did not, and likely could not, breed. There are other bits of evidence suggesting the same or otherwise, but the mtDNA data is arguably the most robust. I've not seen a convincing refutation of that hypothesis, based on principles of sequence analysis and phylogenetics. Bones are suggestive, but with DNA, we can approach questions of taxonomy with some greater level of mathematical rigor; and this approach has proven itself experimentally in every instance where such proofs were possible to attain. The bigger questions (the rate of mtDNA mutagenesis, and so forth) remain, and so the mtDNA cannot stand as a definitive proof one way or another. It's safe to say the question is still unanswered.

[dropzone]

Maybe. There are Asian populations that have lived in arctic conditions for long periods of time and yet still have black hair. Not for a hundred thousand years.At this point we simply have to say that we don't know, and that we don't have enough data to know.Yeah, it wasn't that long ago that we had partial skeletons of only 150 individuals to work with. I don't know what the number is up to but it ain't big and most have no recoverable genetic material.

[aruvqan]

And is that a bad thing? Some people think Vin is sort of a hottie.
Nothing wrong with him, just an example of a heavier facial bone structure, my husband is what I jokingly call a neanderthal type - short [5'7"] stocky body, forearms longer in proportion to upper arms and a brow ridge combined with the crown ridge, and a fairly heavy bone structure. He also seems to have a bit more general strength in things like dead lifts and grip than bigger guys like my brother and one or two of our assorted roomies over the past decade that are 2-6 inches taller and heavier, and in just as good physical condition.

I personally like the tall, heavier type myself. Twue Lurv struck which is why I ended up with a husband the same height as I=)

[Loopydude]

I guess, given what we know about their bone mass, the bowed shape of their long bones, as well as the size of the bone processes at the the fibro-osseous junctions where their tendons attached, the average Neanderthal male could go mano a mano with an NFL linebacker. I imagine an exceptional physical specimine would have terrifying strength, and would look equally fearsome. They were very robust folks, those Neanderthals.

[John Mace]

Not for a hundred thousand years.

So what? You're making assumptions based on one set of modern humans (Europeans) and ignoring another set (Asians). There is nothing deterministic about the way European Sapiens turned out to imply Neanderthals had to turn out the same way. We simply have no way of knowing.

[Polycarp]

And that two subspecies can interbreed and produce viable offspring says nothing about how often that will occur. It could be that successful pregnancies only happen occasionally, which would be advantageous if the female were a hooker or otherwise was interested in sex without issue.

"Do you do rishathra?" :D

[dropzone]

So what? You're making assumptions based on one set of modern humans (Europeans) and ignoring another set (Asians). There is nothing deterministic about the way European Sapiens turned out to imply Neanderthals had to turn out the same way. We simply have no way of knowing.Of course not, but as the mutations at MC1R that result in fair skin, freckling, and red hair would be advantageous in a population with a range mostly limited to the sub-Arctic I would not be surprised* if, by the time they stopped being an isolated population, founder effect would trend the Neandrethals paler. I am not "ignoring" Asians; for the most part they were never that isolated nor limited in their range and as the risk of vitamin D poisoning would select against pale skin in some parts of their range it shouldn't be surprising that the mutations never "took hold." In the one group of Asians that meets the criteria of latitude and isolation, Eskimos, their diet is high in fish oils, the best dietary source of vitamin D, so a selective pressure for paler skin would not be present.


* - I never, EVER, say evolution "had to turn out the same way." There are too many factors for which we need to account. Instead, I use weasel phrases like, "I'm not surprised," or, if I want to go WAY out on a limb, "one could expect."

[BrainGlutton]

"Do you do rishathra?" :D

"We will provide a partner for you if you will state your sex."

"Our form of foreplay may be dangerous to you."

"You do not have enough openings."

"Only with sentient species. Would you mind taking a short IQ test?"

"Only with nonsentient species. It keeps us from becoming involved."

"How long can you hold your breath underwater?"

:D