Don't we also have to respect cheaters and sociopaths?

[Roland Deschain]

In my diversity, and multiculturalism in American Religion class last semester we discussed how it is important to respect even those we disagree with. As examples she offered Satanists, Objectivists (think of Ian Rand), and Hedonists just as much as we might Jews and Catholics. Well fine, why dosesn't this attitude apply to cheaters and sociopaths? For example a teacher below complains about students who cheat. Well as a Libertarian/Conservative/Republican/Hedonist/Socipath I don't even believe the government should be involved in telling me that I have to go to nursing school to take the NCLEX and become a licensed nurse (you see I am reasonable since I will compromise and agree to let the government have basic compentcy tests although in truth I don't really support even these). Since I reject the governments authority I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes. Indeed, this is consistent with my Sociopathic outlook which you are obliged to respect at least according to my American Religion class.

Where am I going wrong here?

[Colibri]

any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes.

Does this involve sacrificing a chicken?

[anu-la1979]

Every time you post I scream Axis II.

[Binarydrone]

Does this involve sacrificing a chicken?
That was the Satanists. Pay attention :p

[Cat Whisperer]

My freedom to flail my arms about ends where my fist connects with your face. Where is it easy to see where people are obviously hurt by someone else's actions, it's easy to say that people shouldn't do that. It gets more grey when someone isn't as obviously hurt like a fist in the face. I can respect the rights of someone doing something to hurt other people, but I can't allow them to continue to hurt other people.

(Do you mean Ayn Rand, the Objectivist?)

[betenoir]

First of all it's Ayn Rand.

Second of all I'm kind of in favour of someone making a standard for who will be nurse to me...

Thirdly....I don't know what your teacher was on about but I'd agree you should respect a person as a person even if you disagree with there ideas. That doesn't mean accepting their ideas. And of course, if their ideas lead them to be a lousy human being...like a sociopath...then I might lose respect for them.

[Guinastasia]

It's Ayn Rand.

[sweetfreak]

In my diversity, and multiculturalism in American Religion class last semester we discussed how it is important to respect even those we disagree with. Where am I going wrong here?
Respect those we disagree with? I don't agree with that. I respect their right to live their life as they choose, as long as they don't interfere with my freedoms. I will respect anyone that gives me the same respect in return.

[pravnik]

Being obliged to respect an outlook one doesn't share isn't the same as condoning any action taken consistent with it. I may respect someone's right to bizzare occult beliefs of dubious origin, but if someone claims those beliefs require them to ritually sacrifice a human being on the eve of the AFC Championship, I don't have to accept it.

Ian Rand, IIRC, was the lesser known half brother who wrote the Objectivist spy novels...."Galt. John Galt."

[GaWd]

Ayn Ayn Ayn Ayn Ayn Rand

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes.
I respect your right to hold that opinion, but I hold absolutely no respect for that opinion itself, and have done my part in the past to see that incorrigible cheaters do not pass their courses or become licensed health professionals.

See the difference? :)

QtM, MD

[Frank]

I may respect someone's right to bizzare occult beliefs of dubious origin, but if someone claims those beliefs require them to ritually sacrifice a human being on the eve of the AFC Championship, I don't have to accept it.
Well, see, it's your fault the Steelers lost.

Roland? It's Ayn Rand.

[Giraffe]

It's Ayn Rand. You know, with a 'y'.

[Shirley Ujest]

Is it Ann Rand or Ayn Rand?

Thank you ?

[Shirley Ujest]

Unliscensed nurses...why does that sound porny?


:D

[SusanStoHelit]

Being obliged to respect an outlook one doesn't share isn't the same as condoning any action taken consistent with it. I may respect someone's right to bizzare occult beliefs of dubious origin, but if someone claims those beliefs require them to ritually sacrifice a human being on the eve of the AFC Championship, I don't have to accept it.

ITL. Honestly Roland, did you think about this at all before you posted? This is basic stuff, like Old Navy basic.

Ian Rand, IIRC, was the lesser known half brother who wrote the Objectivist spy novels...."Galt. John Galt."

*snort*

[Shirley Ujest]

Äyn Rand?

[Hamlet]

I heard somewhere that it was Ayn Rand, but for the life of me, I can't remember where.

[SusanStoHelit]

Is it Ann Rand or Ayn Rand?

Thank you ?

Assuming this isn't a whoosh, Ayn (www.aynrand.org).




And it's still Ayn if it is a whoosh, too!

[Shirley Ujest]

Maybe you heard it in the Mariana's Trench.

[Frank]

Unliscensed nurses...why does that sound porny?
Dear Penthouse,
I never believed it could happen to Ayn Rand ...

[Shirley Ujest]

Assuming this isn't a whoosh, Ayn (www.aynrand.org).




And it's still Ayn if it is a whoosh, too!


It's a bird...it's a plane....It's a whoosh!

[Giraffe]

Äyn Rand?No! A is A. A is not Ä.

In fact, Ä is not Ä either. Fuck Ä.

[Shirley Ujest]

Dear Penthouse,
I never believed it could happen to Ayn Rand ...


Dear Penthouse,

I never thought I would be whooshed by Ayn Rand by The Fountainhead....it was the best I ever had.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Whatever happened to Ian Rand anyway? 11th round draft choice (http://www.sports-wired.com/teams/stats.asp?T=25&Y=1995&N=D) of the San Francisco Giants in 1995, last I heard.

[Shirley Ujest]

Rand McNally sure makes some good maps.

[Bryan Ekers]

Some might think it unfair to harp on a single spelling mistake in the OP's post and disregard his premise.






Tough. It's Ayn Rand.

[Hamlet]

Oddly enough, Ayn Rand 'al Thor is the Objectivist Dragon Reborn.

[manhattan]

Äyn Rand?Äyn øbjectivist once bit my sister...

[SusanStoHelit]

Maybe you heard it in the Mariana's Trench.

When was that? And for how long?

[Shirley Ujest]

ayn (http://www.ayn.ca)

[Tapioca Dextrin]

So, Ian Rand, a Satanist and a Hedonist walked into a swingers bar.......

[FinnAgain]

Oddly enough, Ayn Rand 'al Thor is the Objectivist Dragon Reborn.

This is one of the funniest things I've ever seen on the Dope.

[Hamlet]

I may respect someone's right to bizzare occult beliefs of dubious origin, but if someone claims those beliefs require them to ritually sacrifice a human being on the eve of the AFC Championship, I don't have to accept it.Actually, it's the NFC Championship game. Which reminds me, Donovan McNabb is good, but he's no Ayn Randall Cunningham.

[neofishboy]

I believe the answer is "Rio" by Ayn Rand.


Äyn øbjectivist once bit my sister...


øbjectivist bites can be nasti...

[LilyoftheValley]

Maybe you heard it in the Mariana's Trench.

You mean the Mariayna's Trench. Duh.

[Frank]

Some might think it unfair to harp on a single spelling mistake in the OP's post and disregard his premise.






Tough. It's Ayn Rand.
And besides, featherlou and pravnik have answered the question as well as it could be answered. The rest of us can just have fun.

[Bippy the Beardless]

You should respect someones right to hold whatever beleif they want, but you make your own decisions as to whether you respect their beliefs. But if you don't respect someones beliefs that doesn't make it polite to disparage their beliefs.

I respect someones right to believe Scientology, but I do not respect the belief in Scientology. None the less this doesn't give me any right to laugh at or ridicule the Scientologists who have set up shop in Mountain View.

When people start acting on their beleifs then a new evaluation of respect occurs. A sociopaph who manages to live their life without harming others deserves respect, and freedom to carry on as they are doing. A sociopath who causes harm to others loses much respect, and deserves to be curtailed, imprisoned or otherwise forced to become non harmful to others.

[Frank]

Actually, it's the NFC Championship game. Which reminds me, Donovan McNabb is good, but he's no Ayn Randall Cunningham.
Ouch. Why are the pun police never around when one needs them?

[Giraffe]

What the fuck are you talking about Bippy? That has nothing to do with Ayn Rand.

Talk about your non-sequitors...

[Nametag]

You mean the Mariayna's Trench. Duh.It was only called that once. For 20 minutes. In the 1960s.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Maybe Owen Rand was a sociopath?

[ParentalAdvisory]

Some might think it unfair to harp on a single spelling mistake in the OP's post and disregard his premise.






Tough. It's Ayn Rand.


Especially because it wasn't pointed out... oh... about 1000 times before your post. Bravo.

[Jillyvn]

Dear Penthouse,
I never believed it could happen to Ayn Rand ...

I'd very much like to read more of THIS penthouse letter. Someone with more wit than I, perhaps you, care to volunteer?

[pravnik]

Oh, man. Choice. Somebody should start "what if famous writers wrote to Penthouse?"

[Chimpy]

No! A is A. A is not Ä.

In fact, Ä is not Ä either. Fuck Ä.
Fuckin' Ä Giraffe.

[Rufus Xavier]

I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes.


Does it bother anyone here that I visualized a guy riding an emu past a crossing guard and into a school?

- Her name is Atlas like that book by Ian Rand
- Oh Atlas, Atlas dance across the Rio Grande
by Der Rand Der Rand

Did you know that if you covered the Objectivist Ian Rand with salt, you could go to the Yale prom?

[neofishboy]

Fuckin' Ä Giraffe.

Wow. Me, I'm just Drinkin' Ä Beer.



Kudos.

[Guinastasia]

Ah, it's a 1920s style Ayn Rand. ducks


Is it Ann Rand or Ayn Rand?

Thank you ?

Ayn and it's rhymes with "whine." You know, kinda like the OP?

And he claims he's going to be a nurse. *shudder*

[Frank]

Does it bother anyone here that I visualized a guy riding an emu past a crossing guard and into a school?
No. Here in America we are trained to respect fantasies of all types, no matter how sick, twisted, and perverted they are.

Emus? Ewww.

[Miller]

Especially because it wasn't pointed out... oh... about 1000 times before your post. Bravo.

Cite?

[Colibri]

So, Ian Rand, a Satanist and a Hedonist walked into a swingers bar.......

With a fowl . . .

[Zoe]

Chimpy:

Originally Posted by Giraffe:
No! A is A. A is not Ä.

In fact, Ä is not Ä either. Fuck Ä.

Fuckin' Ä Giraffe.

Actually, it's "Fucking A. Tucci" as in that scene in Jungle Fever with Wesley Snipes.

[CrazyCatLady]

In my diversity, and multiculturalism in American Religion class last semester we discussed how it is important to respect even those we disagree with. As examples she offered Satanists, Objectivists (think of Ian Rand), and Hedonists just as much as we might Jews and Catholics. Well fine, why dosesn't this attitude apply to cheaters and sociopaths? For example a teacher below complains about students who cheat. Well as a Libertarian/Conservative/Republican/Hedonist/Socipath I don't even believe the government should be involved in telling me that I have to go to nursing school to take the NCLEX and become a licensed nurse (you see I am reasonable since I will compromise and agree to let the government have basic compentcy tests although in truth I don't really support even these). Since I reject the governments authority I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes. Indeed, this is consistent with my Sociopathic outlook which you are obliged to respect at least according to my American Religion class.

Where am I going wrong here?

You're confusing someone's right to think whatever they want with the right to do whatever they want, that's where you're going wrong. People have to respect your right to believe that you're above the rules, but they don't have to put up with your bullshit when you start acting like you're above the rules.

See, I can believe that everyone with blond hair and blue eyes is the agent of Satan sent to kill me, and that my only chance of survival is to kill them all. It's just peachy for me to believe that. It's not peachy, however, for me to actually go around killing people.

[FinnAgain]

You're confusing someone's right to think whatever they want with the right to do whatever they want, that's where you're going wrong. People have to respect your right to believe that you're above the rules, but they don't have to put up with your bullshit when you start acting like you're above the rules.

See, I can believe that everyone with blond hair and blue eyes is the agent of Satan sent to kill me, and that my only chance of survival is to kill them all. It's just peachy for me to believe that. It's not peachy, however, for me to actually go around killing people.

I disagree with this stance... while one has a metaphysical right to believe whatever they want, some beliefs are just wrong. And while, yes, actions are the only things which may really be punished in a civil society, I don't think we always need to 'spare the messenger.'

If, for instance, one believed that all blond folks were agents of Satan, the correct course of action would be to get them to a psychologist/psychiatrist asap. And yes, they have the ulimate existential right to believe it, but instances of dangerous beliefs should still be fought.

YMMV.

[danceswithcats]

The question is, if you didn't change the oil in your emu for 100K miles, would the oil then be fowl? :confused:

[laigle]

We all have to respect cheater and sociopaths. Otherwise they'd fire us.

[Triskadecamus]

It should also be pointed out that the primary societal objections to sociopaths are not their ideas, but their behaviors. Those behaviors are, at times discussed and justified with ideas, but the pretty much arise out of an emotional deadness, that won't allow the sociopath to consider others to be people, but rather complex objects to be manipulated and used. Arguing philosophy with a sociopath is fine but be aware his or her evaluation of the importance and definition of winning the argument are unlikely to be similar to your own.

Of course, you should treat sociopaths with the same respect that you treat all people. Understanding that that attitude is probably not reciprocated is not disrespectful, or unreasonable.

Tris
---------------------------
"The road to truth is long, and lined the entire way with annoying bastards." ~ Alexander Jablokov ~

[Hamlet]

Of course, you should treat sociopaths with the same respect that you treat all people. To keep this thread on topic, I'll ask:

Do have to to treat sociopaths as I would Ayn Rand? 'Cause then I get to beat them to death.

[Cat Whisperer]

And besides, featherlou and pravnik have answered the question as well as it could be answered. The rest of us can just have fun.
{Checks to see what I wrote, or if I was just blathering}
Thanks, mang.

That is an excellent point, CrazyCatLady. Is it really okay for people to think and believe any old thing they want, as long as what they think and believe doesn't have an impact on anyone else? If our hypothetical sociopath thinks that everyone that thwarts him should die, but he never does anything to anyone else, does that make him a bad person?

(I love the idea of famous writers writing to Penthouse. Can you imagine Stephen King's version? I think we need Scylla to write that one.)

[Abbie Carmichael]

Since I reject the governments authority I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes.

Would these be the classes that are being paid for by the government (whose authority you reject)?

[Boyo Jim]

Does keeping my mouth shut and hiding my contempt mean the same thing as "respecting" other views? Sometimes that's the best I can do with people who espouse ideas I think are nonsensical, stupid or downright insane.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Does keeping my mouth shut and hiding my contempt mean the same thing as "respecting" other views?
Sometimes, yes, that's what respecting their right to their view means. Depending on the situation. Sometimes one must speak up to disagree, else silence will seem to indicate assent. But usually publically trying to debate or mock a person's belief is not really constructive.

[Indygrrl]

I don't have to respect anyone. Respect is earned.

I respect the right to say what you please. But I don't have to inherently respect what people say or do.

That is all.

[Ludovic]

Do we also have to respect Opal? If we tell her to fucko off will Og smash us?

[Smeghead]

Where am I going wrong here?

Where to begin...where to begin?

[Roland Deschain]

I was responding to the teacher in a thread below who was ranting about his computer science students who were appearently cheating buy buying their code online. I'm sure that the animals that early man first slaughtered with stone tools would have considered it cheating if they had posessed the ability to comprehend what was happening to them. Stephen Hawking probably received extra time on his exams when reading Physics at Oxford (or is it Cambridge) due to his disability. If I try to compete with others in computer science, medicine or nursing (or anything else) with my paltry 114 IQ while they average 130 am I not also handicapped? Was it cheating when we attempted to make the Germans think that we were landing at Cherbourg rather than Normandy? Was it cheating when we used an H-Bomb on Japan or when William Friedman broke the code of their Purple Machine in project Magic? How about when we used our cruise missles against the Taliban? Well I would argue that much of life is a pitched battle for scarce resources ranging from seats in schools, to good jobs and yes even women. In other words life is WAR, and in war its far worse to lose than to cheat.

My father taught Physics for many years at the college level and never had a problem with this issue. In fact, he allowed students to "decide" the grade they wanted at the beginning of the semester. Each "grade" required specific amounts of work and although there were tests they could be repeated as many times as necessary (although there were something like 15 versions of each test so a student wouldn't get same quesitons). The point is that if teachers would be more concerned about teaching and less concerned about grading then cheating wouldn't be so much of an issue.

[FinnAgain]

I don't have to respect anyone. Respect is earned.

I respect the right to say what you please. But I don't have to inherently respect what people say or do.

That is all.

Right on! Respect is earned and not given. I am a bit tired of this touchy-feely multiculturiastic paradigm we're in. Some ideas are better than others, some beliefs are inherently out of touch with reality.

And while you aren't ever allowed to cause physical harm to another human being, believing that they're wrong, silently, and/or calling them out on stupid shit is just fine in my book.

[teleute12]

My father taught Physics for many years at the college level and never had a problem with this issue. In fact, he allowed students to "decide" the grade they wanted at the beginning of the semester. Each "grade" required specific amounts of work....
(bolding mine)

Right, see, there's the thing. Those students had to work for whatever grade they felt like getting, and buying your homework off the internet isn't actually doing any work. "Work" implies that you put effort into the assignment beyond doing a google search, pulling out your credit card, and printing out the results.

[Muffin]

If it's any consolation, Roland, I do not respect you.

Let's not confuse respect with measured degrees of toleration.

[betenoir]

What the fuck are you talking about??


In other words life is WAR, and in war its far worse to lose than to cheat.



Oh wait. I guess I see what you're talking about. And it's pretty ugly.

You're right. In war losing is worse than "cheating". By which I guess you mean using deception. Although I wonder about calling that cheating as it is expected, by both sides.

But if you can't see the difference between war and education....

I guess from a social darwinist perspective, life is nothing more than a viscous competition for resourses. But even if I accept that view of human society (and I don't)
...if you cheat and doen't learn the codes you're supposed to you can't actually do the job you're supposedly trained for. And all the more so, if you cheat on your nursing exam you can't do that job you've supposedly been trained for. I can't imagine not seeing a problem with that.

Now, if what you're saying is that the grading system promotes unheathy competition and in some respects encourages cheating out of desperation, I might agree. If you're saying we should teach for mastery rather than a good grade I definatly agree. But neither of those ideas gives approval to cheating.

So if you're pitting is directed at the teacher who didn't like her students not bothering to learn what they were there to learn...well, I don't know what to say...except I hope you're never my nurse.

[Polycarp]

Does it bother anyone here that I visualized a guy riding an emu past a crossing guard and into a school?

I'd cast a wary eye on anyone riding an emu!

[betenoir]

I'd cast a wary eye on anyone riding an emu!

If I were a cassowary
On the plains of Timbuctoo,
I would eat a missionary,
Cassock, bands, and hymn-book too.

[Quartz]

Guys, in case you haven't spotted it, you've been thoroughly whooshed. It appears that Roland does in fact have a sense of humour.

[FinnAgain]

cite?

[Polycarp]

cite?

It's common knowledge that Objectivists tend to be Aynal retentive!

[FinnAgain]

So Aynybody could've figured that out through the use of reason?

[hawthorne]

Roland Deschain
Stephen Hawking probably received extra time on his exams when reading Physics at Oxford (or is it Cambridge) due to his disability.This material has whiskers on it.

[Rufus Xavier]

I'd cast a wary eye on anyone riding an emu!


Rheally? That seems a bit of a stritch.

[Triskadecamus]

Do have to to treat sociopaths as I would Ayn Rand? 'Cause then I get to beat them to death.You can't beat Ayn Rand to death. Objectively speaking, that is.

[Shirley Ujest]

Ayn Fuckin' Rand is riding an emu? It is the sign of the apocalypso.


What, btw, would be the plural for emu? emu's or emii?


Just wondering.

[FinnAgain]

The four horsemen:

War
Death
Plague
A bitchy Russian chick

[Polycarp]

...A bitchy Russian chick

Well, I'm not sure -- she's definitely Coulder, frigid in fact, but I'd need a cite that she's Russian! :D

[TVeblen]

For example a teacher below complains about students who cheat. Well as a Libertarian/Conservative/Republican/Hedonist/Socipath I don't even believe the government should be involved in telling me that I have to go to nursing school to take the NCLEX and become a licensed nurse (you see I am reasonable since I will compromise and agree to let the government have basic compentcy tests although in truth I don't really support even these). Since I reject the governments authority I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes. Indeed, this is consistent with my Sociopathic outlook which you are obliged to respect at least according to my American Religion class.

Where am I going wrong here?

Roland, either you don't think before you post shit like this--or you do, which falls squarely within the category of trolling, i.e. posting over-the-top nonsense to get a rise out of people. The effect is the same either way. Somehow I doubt you're really all that puzzled about 'where you're going wrong here'. Extrapolating a philsophical stance to short-changing knowledge necessary for you to tend competently for sick people under your care isn't exactly a theoretical problem.

Either you have rudimentary common sense or you don't. I'm not here to teach it to you, and we're not about to get into a pissing match with you creating an exhaustive list of what's blatantly stupid and what isn't. I warn you again: either ratchet back your shock quotient for kicks or we will dispense with your presence.

TVeblen
Pit mod

Though Dopers' responses here have been some of the most hilarious stuff I've read in ages.

[Liberal]

I can't believe I'm the first to correct the OP. It is Ayn Rand.

[Zebra]

Where you go wrong.

Well, that's a big question but in this case where you go is that what you think is the logical extension of the arguement that one should respect hedonists as much as you may respect a Jew equalls allowing people to break civil law or in this case the rules of your school.


The school says you can't cheat.

It does not matter if you are a Catholic or Jew or an Objetivist.

You can't cheat on a test or a paper.


What I'm thinking your teacher is trying to say is someithing along the lines of if a person was Jew, you probably wouldn't say say to them that they sould eat some pork because it is healthy and safe to eat. And if a person came and twisted their ankle while during a naked twister game with three other couples you wouldn't say something like, "Well, that was God punishing you for being a hedonist".

It does not apply to the idea of cheating on a test.


That's where you went wrong, Today.

[Polycarp]

I can't believe I'm the first to correct the OP. It is Ayn Rand.

ROFLMAO!!

It's nice to see the old dry Libertarian wit back! Thanks! :)

[Zoe]

Roland: The point is that if teachers would be more concerned about teaching and less concerned about grading then cheating wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Concerned about cheating? Nyah! We all cheated our way through education courses. That's only fair, isn't it?

I do need a little help with a physics problem. What happens when an irresistable farce meets an emu viable object?

[Polycarp]

Concerned about cheating? Nyah! We all cheated our way through education courses. That's only fair, isn't it?

I do need a little help with a physics problem. What happens when an irresistable farce meets an emu viable object?

STDs -- especially chronic Ghana rhea! :)

[TVeblen]

I do need a little help with a physics problem. What happens when an irresistable farce meets an emu viable object?

Aynal fissures. Very uncomfortable, at least for the emu.

[Guinastasia]

Think about it-this fuckwit is going to be a NURSE.

I have the feeling we'll be reading about him the paper one day...he'll be one of those "Angels of Death".

*shudder*

[astro]

No! A is A. A is not Ä.

In fact, Ä is not Ä either. Fuck Ä.

Whoaaaa there big guy! No tautologisms in the BBQ Pit!


.... or was that lawn chairs? :confused:

[Frank]

Think about it-this fuckwit is going to be a NURSE.

I have the feeling we'll be reading about him the paper one day...he'll be one of those "Angels of Death".
I'm (almost) sure you're wrong. What I think is he's going to be one of those nurses who slams the needle in your arm, who forces the catheter up your urethra, who brings your bedpan 15 minutes too late and whines about why the aide didn't do it, who won't inject morphine into a dying cancer patient because he knows better than the doctor.

[Muffin]

He will not become a nurse because he will flunk out of his program. He will flunk out because he is too dumb, and because he is not permitted to cheat.

[Roland Deschain]

He will not become a nurse because he will flunk out of his program. He will flunk out because he is too dumb, and because he is not permitted to cheat.

I may or may not become an RN, but I am already involved in patient care and have been for some years now. Indeed, whether or not I am successful in becoming an RN or stay a CNA/QNA/EMT I may very well be taking care of you or someone you love one day. Sleep well!

[FinnAgain]

Wow, how classy. You say that you don't hold truck with basic competency tests, and would subvert them if you could. And we better look out, because you might be in charge of the health of our loved ones?

Disgusting.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Clean up on aisle 5! I don't think Roland's last comment is going to emuse anyone.

[Roland Deschain]

Wow, how classy. You say that you don't hold truck with basic competency tests, and would subvert them if you could. And we better look out, because you might be in charge of the health of our loved ones?

Disgusting.

I'm sorry but I take it very personally when people suggest that I shouldn't be able to do the job that I am betting my familie's future on being able to do! I think that I provide dammed good care despite being a bit slower at the skills than other nurses. I may be a bit "dumb" in some ways as you put it, but in my CNA class I was the only one who actually continued to visit the Long Term Care residents on my own after our clinicals were over (and still do about once a month when I take my four year old son which makes their day). In addition, I bought one of the residents a new pair of eye glasses (her were lost by the facility and she didn't have the money to replace them, and they said Medicaid wouldn't pay for another pair for a whole year) when we were so low on money that it wasn't clear that we would even be able to pay our mortgage. I also got the Marion County Library to start delivery and book pick up (including audio books) at the facility through an area volunteer service (enabling the residents to be able to have access to books and tapes for the first time ).

I realize that you may find some of my posts offensive, but do you have to be so fucking personal in your replies? It's one thing to say that I'm a creep, and another to say that I'm a potential, deliberate killer. For Hells sake I was just responding off the cuff to a Pit thread below that honked me off a bit. I certainly didn't cast any aspersions at that teacher other than to provide a potential contrary view to cheating and why people cheat. I've got a house full of legal semi automatic weapons and a license to carry a handgun and you guys seem to fear that I'm going to off someone with a needle or a catheter. I've never hurt anyone physically in my life other than Donny Lusk in the sixth grade (the shithead called my mother who was his first grade teacher a mean bitch, my only regret is that I wasn't able to break his scrawny little snot mouthed nose), but if I did it wouldn't be in some sneaky, cowardly backward manner that involved nursing.

[FinnAgain]

I'm sorry but I take it very personally when people suggest that I shouldn't be able to do the job that I am betting my familie's future on being able to do! I think that I provide dammed good care despite being a bit slower at the skills than other nurses.

You can not provide proper care if you're 'slower at the skills'. In fact, you may very well put people's lives in danger. The fact that you'll put their lives in danger for your family doesn't impress me.

Look, you may be nice to patients, and you may be doing this for your family, but medical care is literaly life and death. Standards are absolutely essential.


I realize that you may find some of my posts offensive, but do you have to be so fucking personal in your replies?

If you can't do your job properly, people may die.


It's one thing to say that I'm a creep, and another to say that I'm a potential, deliberate killer.

Never claimed that, a killer by inedpitude would be more likely in my book.


For Hells sake I was just responding off the cuff to a Pit thread below that honked me off a bit. I certainly didn't cast any aspersions at that teacher other than to provide a potential contrary view to cheating and why people cheat.

You seem to not understand, you've talked about basic competency tests being an obstacle that you should subvert or get around. This is terrifying to hear from someone whose job is the protection of human life.


I've got a house full of legal semi automatic weapons and a license to carry a handgun and you guys seem to fear that I'm going to off someone with a needle or a catheter.

No, I personally am afraid that you might 'off someone' because you've cheated to get through nursing school and don't know the skills that are required of you.

[Roland Deschain]

Being slow at skills would almost never be a patient care problem. I dare say that many people are slow at skills for the first few years on the job. It's my first year do you think you could cut me a bit of slack? As for competency tests such as the NCLEX I've scored higher on the practice tests every time than my fucking wife who graduated SECOND in her nursing class and passed the actual exam with eighty five questions (the lowest you CAN pass with is around 75 and the highest is around 265, it's an adaptive test). I also took the MCAT's over six years ago and scored in the upper 10th percentile. What honks me off is that I think that such tests should be reserved for AFTER you graduate from school not the first few weeks OF school. By the way I would submit that you should be more concerned with the 50+% of nurses and DOCTORS that I've witnessed who don't even take the time to wash their hands between patients before you start stressing over my being on the slow side. Many thousands of patients die each year of nosocomial infections that could largely be prevented by proper handwashing. You can take your fast nursing and stick it up your urethral meatus along with the case of MERSA or VERSA that you might end up getting with it. Besides, there are many things in nursing that don't even involve bedside care. For example I am seriously considering Medical Records Abministration something my aunt did until she was almost 80 for nursing homes earning her close to 100K per year (and she was half nuts the last 20 years of her life).




You can not provide proper care if you're 'slower at the skills'. In fact, you may very well put people's lives in danger. The fact that you'll put their lives in danger for your family doesn't impress me.

Look, you may be nice to patients, and you may be doing this for your family, but medical care is literaly life and death. Standards are absolutely essential.



If you can't do your job properly, people may die.



Never claimed that, a killer by inedpitude would be more likely in my book.



You seem to not understand, you've talked about basic competency tests being an obstacle that you should subvert or get around. This is terrifying to hear from someone whose job is the protection of human life.



No, I personally am afraid that you might 'off someone' because you've cheated to get through nursing school and don't know the skills that are required of you.

[Telperien]

Indeed, whether or not I am successful in becoming an RN or stay a CNA/QNA/EMT I may very well be taking care of you or someone you love one day. Sleep well!

OK, this creeps me out.

My mama (who knows everything) said you don't have to respect everybody, you just have to treat them with respect, which apparently you can stop doing when they do the same to you.

[bobkitty]

Roland, I would appreciate it if you would stop referring to yourself as a sociopath. You are NOT a sociopath. Sociopaths are invariably charming, socially polished, and able to (most of the time) be functioning members of society. They actually have more than two functioning neurons floating around in their heads to slam together. BestKittyFriend meets the majority of the criteria for APD, and you are simply not fit to even breath the same air as he.

You are also not a hedonist. You are a sad, pathetic little man who can't draw on his own merits earn what he feels he deserves, and so takes it out on everyone else.

In fact, you, sir, are a Borderline. I can tell because every time I read one of your posts my teeth itch, which happens to be my Early Warning System For Borderlines.

I can only thank the gods that neither I nor my family live anywhere near you.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I resolve to use any method fair or fowl to pass to my classes.
This statement shows a fundamental level of dishonesty which demonstrates the person making the statement is unqualified to deliver health care. It matters not a whit the person's level of skill, intelligence, or caring. The risk of future dishonesty is too great. Since the person has already demonstrated a willingness to take the softer, easier way to get licensed, the person will also be at high risk to take the softer, easier way at his job. For example, charting that the patient has been bathed, had their meds, and had their dressing changed without actually doing all those onerous things.

Medical and nursing boards across the nation correctly suspend and revoke licenses to practice when such behavior comes to light.

[Squink]

Medical and nursing boards across the nation correctly suspend and revoke licenses to practice when such behavior comes to light.
:cool:

[Joe Random]

I'm sorry but I take it very personally when people suggest that I shouldn't be able to do the job that I am betting my familie's future on being able to do!Tough. If you intend to cheat your way to a job, then you shouldn't be able to have the job. Those who put in honest, hard work deserve it more than you do.

I think that I provide dammed good care despite being a bit slower at the skills than other nurses.Frankly, it doesn't matter what you think. The important thing is that you can demonstrate to others that you can provide "dammed good care". That is what schooling and testing are for. If you circumvent your training by way of cheating, then you have undermined the basis for which others are placing their trust in you.

I realize that you may find some of my posts offensive, but do you have to be so fucking personal in your replies?Yes. Should I somehow end up in a position where I have a nurse caring for me, I certainly don't want someone who accidentally kills me because he cheated past the part of his training that would have taught him how to properly care for someone in the particular position that I found myself in.

I've never hurt anyone physically in my life . . . but if I did it wouldn't be in some sneaky, cowardly backward manner that involved nursing.I, for one, am not suggesting that you'd hurt anyone on purpose. I'm suggesting that you'd do it accidentally, because you cheated your way through your certification and don't know what the fuck you're doing.

[Cat Whisperer]

This statement shows a fundamental level of dishonesty which demonstrates the person making the statement is unqualified to deliver health care. It matters not a whit the person's level of skill, intelligence, or caring. The risk of future dishonesty is too great. Since the person has already demonstrated a willingness to take the softer, easier way to get licensed, the person will also be at high risk to take the softer, easier way at his job. For example, charting that the patient has been bathed, had their meds, and had their dressing changed without actually doing all those onerous things.

Medical and nursing boards across the nation correctly suspend and revoke licenses to practice when such behavior comes to light.
I was a Registered Medical Laboratory Technologist (let me assure you that this qualification does not come easily), and I left the field after a year or two because I realized that I wasn't suited for it, and patients might suffer because I wasn't the right person to do the job. Not everyone belongs in the medical field, and if you're one of them, Roland, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself and make the right decision.

And get a grip on yourself - this is just a message board. If people are pissing you off, take a break. Go for a walk. Get some perspective.

[Guinastasia]

I realize that you may find some of my posts offensive, but do you have to be so fucking personal in your replies?


So quit telling us all the intimate details about your personal life if you don't want people to comment, dumbass.

[sturmhauke]

To answer the original question: no, we don't, so fuck you again. I don't want a guy giving me a blood transfusion and getting confused about whether A can donate to O or vice versa because he cheated on that part of his test.

[Roland Deschain]

My post was intended to illustrate that the position of "respect for everything" as commonly taught in American Universities today is ridiculous. My point was that if I have to respect those who repress women, practice genital mutilation, and believe that leaving your spouse is okay if it makes you happy (the Ayn Rand people) then everyone else should have to respect me if I decide to be a sociopath or a cheater. Furthermore, I was trying to illustrate that if you really want this perfect "multicultural utopia" where all values are relative and cannot be judged by anyone else, then you don't get to pick and choose your values. So you want gay marriage? Fine, then don't complain when I demand that polygamy be legalized (among consenting adults). You want legalized abortion on demand for women? Fine, then as a man I should be able to dictate that the women I impregnate MUST have an abortion or give the child up for adoption since her choice to keep the child compels me to pay childsupport or fact prison (in other words its my body thats effected too).

[Giraffe]

My post was intended to illustrate that the position of "respect for everything" as commonly taught in American Universities today is ridiculous. My point was that if I have to respect those who repress women, practice genital mutilation, and believe that leaving your spouse is okay if it makes you happy (the Ayn Rand people) then everyone else should have to respect me if I decide to be a sociopath or a cheater. Furthermore, I was trying to illustrate that if you really want this perfect "multicultural utopia" where all values are relative and cannot be judged by anyone else, then you don't get to pick and choose your values.Damn it, you're right! We've all been demanding that you respect all views everywhere equally, from genital mutilation to spouse-leaving, while simultaneously disrespecting your perfectly valid positions on cheating and sociopathy. To be logically consistent, if we support female gential multilation (and we all do), we have to also support your cheating. I for one value logical consistency above all else, and thus concede to your every point. Cheat away, my friend! You've earned it.

Also, you misspelled Ms. Rand's first name. It's "Ian". Haven't you read any of the posts in this thread?

[manhattan]

Also, you misspelled Ms. Rand's first name. It's "Ian". Haven't you read any of the posts in this thread?Thread's over. Giraffe wins.

[eleanorigby]

roland said,"I don't even believe the government should be involved in telling me that I have to go to nursing school to take the NCLEX and become a licensed nurse (you see I am reasonable since I will compromise and agree to let the government have basic compentcy tests although in truth I don't really support even these)."


Oh, sweetums. Speaking as an RN--you got trouble. Plus, I see from further posts that you have worked in the industry as an aide. Ooh-trouble, trouble, trouble.

You don't support basic competencies? Words fail me. Truly.

If you do make it thru school and do indeed pass the NCLEX and even get a job as an RN......I want you to look around yourself. See that RN next to you in report? You're working with her today and you BETTER be abe to count on her as a fully functioning member of the team. You BETTER be able to assume that she is familiar with everything from CPR (ACLS would be great) to initial assessment of a pt and the taking of vital signs. You will need her to get thru your shift--and she will need you. Why would you deny her the same security and basic professional trust while you are in the position of requiring it yourself?

If you think that you can cheat your way thru nursing school (and I have doubts that even a determined person can go far this way)--and even get thru the test, there still lies ahead the unforgivingly harsh world of acute care nursing.

Frankly, you won't last a day. Think on that hard--you may be wasting your time here.

There is no such thing as "MERSA"--I think you mean MRSA, an acronym for Methcillin Resistant Staph Aureus. I have no idea what you mean by VERSA--it sounds like something that did in the Dead Poet's Society.

I have no idea if you are misguided or are just deliberately provocative--but as a nurse--please, our publicity is bad enough: we don't need you messing with it more, kay?

[Roland Deschain]

VRSA is Vancomyesin Resistant Staph. Aureus and there has been at least a few cases reported in the United States (one I remember in particular in Detroit I believe). It don't not think that anyone should cheat, and have never done so on any exam or homework assignment in my life. However, as someone who believes in small limited government (I named my son after Ronald Reagan), I don't believe that the government should be the one to dictate, and or micromanage standards. I would rather see private bodies fufill this function (think of CPA's verses accountants). Of course bodies like JCAHO and ANA do this, but it is largely to fufill Medicare/Medicaid guidelines (thus we get back to the government mandated guidelines). I don't believe the government should even have the ability to dictate standards for a Driver's license beyond basic competency and enforcement of serious infractions. In a like manner I feel the same about attorneys, Dr's, Dentists and almost everything else. I believe that the private sector should regulate these activities via accredidation bodies and that the government should only "bust" those who misrepresent their credentials. I don't quite believe a cavaet emptor, but neither do I believe in the regulatory morass that we have today. Also, I believe that if I am paying a school to TEACH me that their primary focus should be on doing just that not on presenting me with tests (such as skill competencies) that could end my career as a student before I even get started. If they want to have those sort of tests then save them for the end of the program rather than the first few weeks of the semester. If other students can't do math, or pass the written tests there are ample opportunities for tutors (some free and some paid). However, with the skills these opportunities are almost absent (since almost no one has problems with the skills it seems other than me).

However, the point of my post overall was to respond to the mentality which I am confronted with almost daily in my education that I must respect, and appreciate all perspectives even those that I consider to be evil and damaging to society (except of course for my own, somewhat conservative Christian, small government perspective which is the embodiment of hate and should be discouraged according to the gurus of political correctness who are my teachers). I attempted to use a technique that Rush Limbaugh terms "illustrating absurdity with absurdity". For example he once claimed to form an organization that opposed Soccer due to the head trauma that it caused to illustrate the absurdity of some advocacy organizations.

I believe that I am currently a competent bedside nurses aide. Furthermore, I believe that IF I make it through school that I will make an above average nurse. However, you should realize that there are many positions in nursing that have NOTHING to do with bedside care. I personally know nurses involved in recruitment, litigation (assisting malpractice attorneys), injury prevention, and compliance auditing (especially with LTC facilities), not to mention research and systems analysis to improve health care delivery/safety. So even if my "nursing" skills were not acceptible I could work thirty years in nursing in one of these capacities without ever so much as changing a bandaid or wiping a butt, and still support my family quite nicely (and put my wife through CRNA school). You are fretting at what will happen if I graduate and yet I care for patients right now. In addition, as a First Responder (and EMT in training) at my local volunteer Fire Dept. I am responsible for life and death situations on a weekly, if not daily basis. Would your concerns about me not exist no matter what endeavor or profession that I chose to support my family? How about if I instead became a policeman, firefighter, CPA or pharmacist? Would you sleep better if I were interred at Gitmo as a person of interest? I have to do something to support my family unless you are suggesting that I just drop out of society and apply for disablity in which case YOU would be supporting me.

roland said,"I don't even believe the government should be involved in telling me that I have to go to nursing school to take the NCLEX and become a licensed nurse (you see I am reasonable since I will compromise and agree to let the government have basic compentcy tests although in truth I don't really support even these)."


Oh, sweetums. Speaking as an RN--you got trouble. Plus, I see from further posts that you have worked in the industry as an aide. Ooh-trouble, trouble, trouble.

You don't support basic competencies? Words fail me. Truly.

If you do make it thru school and do indeed pass the NCLEX and even get a job as an RN......I want you to look around yourself. See that RN next to you in report? You're working with her today and you BETTER be abe to count on her as a fully functioning member of the team. You BETTER be able to assume that she is familiar with everything from CPR (ACLS would be great) to initial assessment of a pt and the taking of vital signs. You will need her to get thru your shift--and she will need you. Why would you deny her the same security and basic professional trust while you are in the position of requiring it yourself?

If you think that you can cheat your way thru nursing school (and I have doubts that even a determined person can go far this way)--and even get thru the test, there still lies ahead the unforgivingly harsh world of acute care nursing.

Frankly, you won't last a day. Think on that hard--you may be wasting your time here.

There is no such thing as "MERSA"--I think you mean MRSA, an acronym for Methcillin Resistant Staph Aureus. I have no idea what you mean by VERSA--it sounds like something that did in the Dead Poet's Society.

I have no idea if you are misguided or are just deliberately provocative--but as a nurse--please, our publicity is bad enough: we don't need you messing with it more, kay?

[Shirley Ujest]

Thread's over. Giraffe wins.


By a neck!

[Zoe]

Roland, I think that's spelled vancomycin-resistant staph.

[Guinastasia]

Nobody gives a shit about your political beliefs, at least not in this thread. These test are indeed to eliminate anyone who might fuck up-even when they're only students. These are life and death situations, moron. You seem to think you're ENTITLED to become a nurse, and quite frankly, that scares the shit out of me.

No one said you have to respect every belief-I sure as hell don't, and I'm as leftist as they come.

Further more, you don't CHOOSE to be a fucking sociopath-you are born one. You, obviously think it's cool or something like that. But you're not a sociopath-you're just a fucking jackass.

Shut the fuck up already.

[Zoe]

I wonder what university Giraffe went to. I want to learn to frolick like that.

[LeeshaJoy]

I attempted to use a technique that Rush Limbaugh terms "illustrating absurdity with absurdity". For example he once claimed to form an organization that opposed Soccer due to the head trauma that it caused to illustrate the absurdity of some advocacy organizations.
See, there's your problem. Following Limbaugh's lead on ANYTHING is a guaranteed route to ridicule.

[The Scrivener]

I don't think I've ever read a Straight Dope thread that was a greater testament to a rhea's total Ian logic. [d&r]

Ayn was more a Playboy kind of girl, wasn't she, what with their interviewing her (http://ellensplace.net/ar_pboy.html)?

[eleanorigby]

Also, I believe that if I am paying a school to TEACH me that their primary focus should be on doing just that not on presenting me with tests (such as skill competencies) that could end my career as a student before I even get started. If they want to have those sort of tests then save them for the end of the program rather than the first few weeks of the semester. If other students can't do math, or pass the written tests there are ample opportunities for tutors (some free and some paid). However, with the skills these opportunities are almost absent (since almost no one has problems with the skills it seems other than me).
You lost me. I was under the impression that you were protesting skill competencies, like taking a BP or positioning a pt. As a CNA, you should not only be able to PASS the damn competencies for vital signs, you should be proficient! Are you now saying that you are unable to pass the basic Math and language skills neccessary for nursing?
One reason for competency testing is to show the instructor just what s/he has got to work with. It's no use her going on about pathophys if none of you know squat about acid/base etc. What is hard to understand about that?


I believe that I am currently a competent bedside nurses aide. Furthermore, I believe that IF I make it through school that I will make an above average nurse. However, you should realize that there are many positions in nursing that have NOTHING to do with bedside care.

No shit. What a suprise. And it may interest you to know that those job categories are the most sought after and competitive in the industry. You may find your personal philosophies get in the way of being recruited and even interviewed.

So even if my "nursing" skills were not acceptible I could work thirty years in nursing in one of these capacities without ever so much as changing a bandaid or wiping a butt, and still support my family quite nicely (and put my wife through CRNA school).
Not if you cannot pass basic skills competency. Hey, you got into the school--that doesn't mean you're entitled to graduate. You want the RN behind your name--you gotta jump thru the hoops.

You are fretting at what will happen if I graduate and yet I care for patients right now. In addition, as a First Responder (and EMT in training) at my local volunteer Fire Dept. I am responsible for life and death situations on a weekly, if not daily basis. Would your concerns about me not exist no matter what endeavor or profession that I chose to support my family? How about if I instead became a policeman, firefighter, CPA or pharmacist? Would you sleep better if I were interred at Gitmo as a person of interest? I have to do something to support my family unless you are suggesting that I just drop out of society and apply for disablity in which case YOU would be supporting me.

Nope-I have no concerns about you or your family. That is your own paranoia kicking in. I am confident that if you could not perform your duties as a CNA that you would be fired etc. I am not interested in your EMT status etc. Your stance that competency testing is nonsense is surprising, given your career choice--whatever will you do about CEU's?
Who wants you in Gitmo? This sounds like flight of ideas to me. Stop overdramatizing.

Frankly, this attitude of "I want to be a nurse, and we need nurses, so I should get to become one-no matter how poor my skills and attitude are" is not uncommon. The students that come out of school these days!--they can't spell, they can't document status and changes in a pt adequately--oh, that's a whole nother thread, believe me.......

Roland-stay in school; you may learn something. The positve thing in your post is that you see the potential the the RN can give a person. Why you cannot see the value of establishing proficiency at skills common to the profession boggles my mind.

[Lynn Bodoni]

). I attempted to use a technique that Rush Limbaugh terms "illustrating absurdity with absurdity". This technique is also called trolling. Do NOT do it again. Roland Deschain, your posting habits are currently being discussed in mod mail. If you wish to keep posting on the SDMB, quit emulating Rush Limbaugh and start acting like a reasonable human being, not a troll.

Lynn Bodoni
For the Straight Dope

[Hoopy Frood]

and believe that leaving your spouse is okay if it makes you happy (the Ayn Rand people)

A man who left his spouse explored Ayn Rand's trench, but he did it only once, for 20 minutes, in 1960.

[FinnAgain]

Pshaw. Leave Nathaniel Branden out of this ;)

[Cat Whisperer]

My post was intended to illustrate that the position of "respect for everything" as commonly taught in American Universities today is ridiculous. <snip>Furthermore, I was trying to illustrate that if you really want this perfect "multicultural utopia" where all values are relative and cannot be judged by anyone else, then you don't get to pick and choose your values. <snip>
This is actually a very interesting point, one that I've struggled with myself. I tend to be a very un-judgemental, live-and-let-live person, but some things simply are wrong, and how do I suspend judgement of those things, and should I? And how do I decide which things are fundamentally wrong, and which ones are simply repugnant to me *personally*?

[Roland Deschain]

This technique is also called trolling. Do NOT do it again. Roland Deschain, your posting habits are currently being discussed in mod mail. If you wish to keep posting on the SDMB, quit emulating Rush Limbaugh and start acting like a reasonable human being, not a troll.

Lynn Bodoni
For the Straight Dope

Maybe I don't understand what trolling is. I read a thread in the Pit by a teacher who caught some of his computer science students cheating and the "tone" offended me relative to what I've been exposed to in school (which is the mentality that all perspectives including those of objectivists and even sociopaths are to be respected). Note, I have no problem with punishing the students they broke the rules so that's the way it goes. What I objected to was the "tone" of his Pit relative to the attitude of tolerance which is constantly decried at my (and I suspect other) campuses. That is to say that those students subscribed to a philosophy that cheating is an acceptible "survival tool" for college. Had they been my students I would have said something like "I respect your right to feel that way, but please understand that I have no choice but to fail you. You should also consider that you are limiting your educational experience. Then again perhaps you have."

I created a Pit thread which expressed my honest angst at his attitude (note I didn't even Pit him personally, I couldn't even tell you his name unless I looked. I was instead responding to his approach). How is that trolling?

As for Rush Limbaugh he is one of the most respected people in America (and also most controversial granted) and many consider him to be a great man (as I do some people on the Left such as Ralph Nadar or Lawrence Tribe, or Dr. Dean Edell who is actually a moderate I think).

[Guinastasia]

Lynn, in this case, I honestly don't believe he was trolling-just being his usual, clueless self.

Or engaging in hyperbole to make a point. (God, I can't believe I'm defending this moron here!)

Roland, you have issues. Get help.

[Roland Deschain]

Lynn, in this case, I honestly don't believe he was trolling-just being his usual, clueless self.

Or engaging in hyperbole to make a point. (God, I can't believe I'm defending this moron here!)

Roland, you have issues. Get help.

Look, I follow a few simple rules when posting:

1. I try never to insult anyone personally or hurt anyone's feelings. For me this is my personal Prime Directive. Life is often shitty enough without people deliberately saying things to make it worse. Believe it or not I really like most people, even most people who can't stand me. Instead I try to challenge ideas especially those associated with so called Conventional Wisdom which I normally can't stand. It is my hope that I occassionally get people to look at an issue from a perspective which they hadn't previously considered.

2. I only ask questions that I really care about getting answered.

3. I try to do a search to make sure the question hasn't been answered at least from the angle that I'm asking it.

4. The Pit is a bit different since it often involes opinions rather than questions. Frankly until I was Pitted seemingly constantly I had never visited this section of the Website. I confined almost all of my activity to GQ, and IMHO (and a few Cafe Society questions).

5. Beyond that I say what I honestly think to Hell with the consequences. It doesn't matter if my wife threatens to leave me for posting, you threaten to ban me or George Bush himself threatened to send me to Gitmo (frankly I operate by the same criteria in most areas of my life operating by to the beat of my own drummer with little regard to the consequences). I must not be that nuts having never been arrested (although occassinoally fired) for my attitudes.

[Guinastasia]

If your wife is threatening to leave you because you're still posting personal shit, then yes, you deserve what you get.

[Roland Deschain]

If your wife is threatening to leave you because you're still posting personal shit, then yes, you deserve what you get.

Actually, we haven't fought about my posting in almost two years for several reasons:

1. She has been busy worrying about bigger things like us losing our home, and graduating from nursing school.

2. She no longer reads my posts. Most of my opinions grate on her about like they do many of you. She realizes that there are worse things I could do.

3. She has come to realize that the odds of anything that I say here impacting our actual lives are very small indeed. Even less than they were when we had our own business.

4. I think she really appreciates the fact I agreed to go to the Swing club (even though we haven't gone yet and may not actually go). My willinginess to do this has bought me some "posting capital" and like President Bush I intend to spend it!

[sturmhauke]

Maybe I don't understand what trolling is. I read a thread in the Pit by a teacher who caught some of his computer science students cheating and the "tone" offended me relative to what I've been exposed to in school (which is the mentality that all perspectives including those of objectivists and even sociopaths are to be respected)... Had they been my students I would have said something like "I respect your right to feel that way, but please understand that I have no choice but to fail you. You should also consider that you are limiting your educational experience. Then again perhaps you have."
Dude, what the fuck? His intolerance of cheating offends you because your don't like your school's doctrine of respect for all viewpoints? You did say you were attempting to "illustrate absurdity with absurdity", right? Seriously, what the fuck are you even saying? When come back, bring coherency.

[Muffin]

. . . I may very well be taking care of you or someone you love one day. Sleep well!

I think she really appreciates the fact I agreed to go to the Swing club (even though we haven't gone yet and may not actually go).

And someone may very well be taking care of your wife someday. Sleep well!

[FrostySonofThunder]

Originally posted by Roland Deschain
[snip]
As for Rush Limbaugh he is one of the most respected people in America (and also most controversial granted) and many consider him to be a great man (as I do some people on the Left such as Ralph Nadar or Lawrence Tribe, or Dr. Dean Edell who is actually a moderate I think).

Bolding mine.

WTF!!

What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenburg?





One's a huge flaming gasbag, and the other's a Zeppelin.

[FinnAgain]

Oh come now, it's obvious that only the most respected of Americans would send their maids into crime ridden sections of town to score illegal pain meds.


-Rush: Proof that you can still work while stoned out of your gourd.

[eleanorigby]

And not pay any consequences for the drug abuse........hey, it's America and he's a conservative! Anything and everyting goes! Yippee!


Roland --I think your view of America is very narrow if you think that Limbaugh is one of the most respected men here. Feared, maybe; placated, absolutely- but respected? No way. The day his ratings drop, he's history--something to keep in mind.

I am completely confused by this thread-first you say you are against skills testing (because you can't pass), and you intend to do whatever it takes to get thru nursing. Then you say that if you were the teacher, you would not condone cheating.

Which is it? Is is ok for you to cheat, but not others? Is it only ok to cheat in nursing, but computer science is out?

The less I hear about anyone's spouse and a Swing Club, the better, thank you very much. Does your nursing program have a morals clause? Mine did--maybe you'd better check. I have no problem with such clubs for all consenting adults (just don't want any part of them), but nursing is a conservative, rigidly moral profession--you might just want to check into how your personal habits may come under scrutiny by the school........

[Rufus Xavier]

(as I do some people on the Left such as Ralph Nadar or Lawrence Tribe, or Dr. Dean Edell who is actually a moderate I think).

Ralph Nadar - he's the guy that invented the device that can find nudity from a long distance, right? NAkedness Detection And Ranging......

[Tyro]

As examples she offered Satanists, Objectivists (think of Ian Rand), and Hedonists just as much as we might Jews and Catholics.

You'll have to forgive me as I'm new here but isn't it Ayn Rand? :rolleyes:

Where am I going wrong here?
From the rest of your post I'd say roughtly three seconds after birth.

[Greathouse]

Äyn øbjectivist once bit my sister...
Damn funny and clever.

[Jillyvn]

Frankly, this attitude of "I want to be a nurse, and we need nurses, so I should get to become one-no matter how poor my skills and attitude are" is not uncommon. The students that come out of school these days!--they can't spell, they can't document status and changes in a pt adequately--oh, that's a whole nother thread, believe me.......


Have to say, I second this one. My mom works as an LPN and trains nurse students. She is constantly amazed at the complete incompetance, in terms of general knowledge and practical skills.

To hear Roland profess this stuff scares me.

Do they have psych screening for nurses in the states?

[Stranger On A Train]

However, as someone who believes in small limited government (I named my son after Ronald Reagan),
Now, that's funny.

But, going back to the OP, what I want to know is, is it spelled Ian or Ann. And where did John Galt go, and for how long?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Stranger

[Guinastasia]

Bolding mine.

WTF!!

What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenburg?





One's a huge flaming gasbag, and the other's a Zeppelin.


You messed it up. It's flaming NAZI gasbag.

;)

[Voyager]

Now, that's funny.

But, going back to the OP, what I want to know is, is it spelled Ian or Ann. And where did John Galt go, and for how long?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Stranger
I think Ian Rand had something to do with the invention of 1920's style death rays. He calculated the angle etheta of reflection of them., IIRC.

[Idaho Red]

And where did John Galt go, and for how long?



Didn't he go to the bottom of Marianne's trench, for 20 minutes in 1960? Or was that the Professor...

I'm such a :wally

[Roland Deschain]

In reply to some of the above sentiments I state the following:

1. I am fairly sure that its Ayn Rand. I made a spelling error which is common for me (try posting with two or three dogs barking, a Television blaring and your four year old son pulling on your arm hoping that you can finish your post before your wife walks in and casts a glance that says "shouldn't you be studying" and you have a glimpse into my world.) I apply Kant's conversational implicature to others and expect that they do the same with me. Indeed, I remember taking a logic class many years ago and Kant's conversational implicature was presented as the central tenet to all civilized discourse.

2. I was selected first in my nursing class out of 60. I had almost 200 hours of mainly Science classes that I've taken over the last 18 years and completed with a GPA of 3.8. I graduated 5th in my highschool class out of about 300 with 1240 SAT's. I scored in the 95th percentile on the ASVAB in highschool and the 90th percentile overall on the MCAT which I took about six years ago. I'm hardly a brain (usually scoring only around 115 on about every intelligence test I've ever taken), but neither am I a complete idiot at least compared to most nurses. Furthermore, I survived Type B, acute Lymphocytic Leukemia as a child which caused me to miss about two years of school. I then developed a rare eye disease called Pars Planitis (some call it anterior/intermediate uveitis) which caused me to lose a good chunk of my vision and have to sit out another year of school at home. Altogether I missed about 3.5 years of school. I did not attend school after the 6th grade until I was 15 and placed in the 10th grade midterm.

3. My problems are mainly limited to learning coordinated skills. I'm not sure why but things like shuffling cards or learning to tie knots are damm near impossible for me. I'm convinced that a PET/MRI of my brain would show abnormalities. However learning skills are not too difficult for me if I have people to practice with (as I did in my last nursing course). However, I "split" my first two nursing courses so the rest of my class moved on. This class is younger (average age 19 verses maybe 25 for the last class which had many second degree students), and I am the only remaining guy (and a creepy, fat, balding guy of 35 at that). The instructor demonstrated the skills exactly once. Our three Texts (actually two texts plus a printed skills manual) present the skills in about three different versions and list the steps in different orders with each omitting various steps relative to the others. What's more key steps or parts of skills are often missing from the Texts. For example I failed part of my sterile dressing change today because rather than properly "lipping" the saline solution into a non sterile cup and then pouring from the bottle, I instead poured from the cup. There was no place in the skills manual that discussed this step. Indeed the instructions read only "Pour liquid while keeping label facing up and not touching container. Then pour liquid over the sterile 4X4's). To get this you would have had to pay close attention to the instructors presentation and then remembered what she did. Furthermore, it wouldn't have been an issue if I had a "practice group" as almost everyone else does. I'm on my own in terms of learning the skills.

4. Speaking of cheating we had "Virtual Clinic" assignment (from a CD ROM program) due yesterday that took me four hours to complete. Most of the other students got it done in about ninty minutes because they worked in groups. Although, the teacher didn't say we couldn't work in groups I know from people who had the class last semester that five students were almost kicked out of this course for doing that project in groups ( It's considered cheating, they just don't tell you basically). I didn't complain.

5. One of my points above was that if I was that Comp. Sci. Teacher I would have a duty to fail the students. However, I wouldn't "morally berate" them for their activities or degrade their intelligence. I would actually practice a little of the multicultural tolerance for all perspectives that is constantly pounded into my head and have respected their rights to have their own opinions (including on the subject of cheating). Hell, if I can respect the perspective of those who are pro-choice (something that I believe is nothing short of murder in many cases) I can surely respect those who cheat on an assignment. Note however, that respecting them doesn't mean not doing my duty as an instructor and enforcing the rules.

6. Rush Limbaugh is respected by millions of Americans. Granted they are mainly the ones who voted for Bush. Note however that Bush got more votes than Kerry so even if only 25% of Bush voters respected Rush that would still be millions of people. He has a drug problem so what? Which of you is without "sin" so to speak. Certainly not me. I too have a drug problem its called FOOD and combined with my SLOTH has caused me to gain a 100 pounds putting my health at risk and my sons future in jeopardy (I can't even get life insurance at my weight although with my medical history I probably couldn't anyway).

[Ludovic]

Roland, I think that's spelled vancomycin-resistant staph.I'm not and never have been in a medical program, nor had I ever even heard of vancomycin (nor for that matter vancomyesin,) but when I first saw the latter word I was sure it was a typo for vancomycin (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=vancomyesin).

Roland, if you really are in a nursing program, could you please tell me your real name, so I can make sure to never have you as my nurse?

[Roland Deschain]

I'm not and never have been in a medical program, nor had I ever even heard of vancomycin (nor for that matter vancomyesin,) but when I first saw the latter word I was sure it was a typo for vancomycin (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=vancomyesin).

Roland, if you really are in a nursing program, could you please tell me your real name, so I can make sure to never have you as my nurse?

Ludovic, that's the thing. I AM A NURSE RIGHT NOW. Just not an RN. However, much of what I would do then would be the same as now. Okay, for the sake of argument let's just say I turned my "future" and that of my family over to you. What activitiy or profession would you suggest for me? For that matter if you can come up with something that will allow me to provide better for them maybe you can even STOP me from staying in nursing. Convince me that I can become a champion Poker player or anything else that will allow me to earn 70K per year or so with less than an 80 hour work week and I'm all ears.

[Roland Deschain]

As for my spelling if that really concerns you then you should seek mandatory spelling skill competencies for health care professionals. I know some doctors that struggle to spell MD on a good day.

[Ludovic]

Can't spell, can't study, what can you do? And more importantly, why should I believe that you can?

[Zoe]

Roland, wouldn't it be a more worthwhile project to learn to control your own life instead of trying to control others? You say that you march to the beat of a different drummer and to hell with the conseqences. But you really do complain a lot about the consequences. Meanwhile, you scoff at others who have their own drummer going.

I don't know of any university that teaches that you must respect everyone and everything. You seem to misinterpret a lot of things. There is usually some amount of tolerance that comes with being an emotionally intelligent person, but that is different from "respect."

I think you over-estimate the number of people who have respect for Rush Limbaugh. He is the object of a lot of ridicule and rightly so. He is the perfect example of a troll. Millions of people listen to Howard Stern. That doesn't make him one of the most respected men in America either.

And I know what it feels like to be lethargic and 100 pounds overweight. I was there once. And I went nuts. I got help for mental illness and social security for disability. Medication and counselling have made a difference. It prepared me for the surgery that allowed me to overcome obesity. I'm not so negative and angry anymore.

[Roland Deschain]

Your advice is noted. It just never ceases to amaze me how incredibly mean spirited so many people seem to be here. I have no problem with people saying essentially "you are wrong and here is why you are wrong", and then listing those reasons. Sometimes as was the case in this thread I realize the logical problems with my assertions almost as soon as I post them (bascially, I was responding to what I thought was an overly negative tone by the Comp Sci. teacher against his cheating students). However, people around here often don't seem satisfied to simply say "that was a bad post, rethink your arguments" they have to "go for the jugular" and suggest I shouldn't be allowed to continue school, graduate, or practice in my chosen profession. I admit that saying I would use any method fare or foul to graduate was over the line. IF I stated in frustration that "I'm going to take your advice and drop out of school and dedicate the rest of my life to aiding Al Qaida to cross SARS and Avian influenza to try and create a world wide plague" I suspect that some of you guys would be suggesting that President Bush have me interred at Gitmo as a noncombattent. The bottom line is that people sometimes say things in fits of frustration that are not as well reasoned as they should be. Why not simply contain the responses to "You are proabably wrong here's why, rethink your position."




Roland, wouldn't it be a more worthwhile project to learn to control your own life instead of trying to control others? You say that you march to the beat of a different drummer and to hell with the conseqences. But you really do complain a lot about the consequences. Meanwhile, you scoff at others who have their own drummer going.

I don't know of any university that teaches that you must respect everyone and everything. You seem to misinterpret a lot of things. There is usually some amount of tolerance that comes with being an emotionally intelligent person, but that is different from "respect."

I think you over-estimate the number of people who have respect for Rush Limbaugh. He is the object of a lot of ridicule and rightly so. He is the perfect example of a troll. Millions of people listen to Howard Stern. That doesn't make him one of the most respected men in America either.

And I know what it feels like to be lethargic and 100 pounds overweight. I was there once. And I went nuts. I got help for mental illness and social security for disability. Medication and counselling have made a difference. It prepared me for the surgery that allowed me to overcome obesity. I'm not so negative and angry anymore.

[Roland Deschain]

By the way I underwent extensive psychological testing in Navy before they admitted me into the EOD program. So either I'm not so crazy or the tests are not worth very much anyway.

[Cat Whisperer]

Your advice is noted. It just never ceases to amaze me how incredibly mean spirited so many people seem to be here. I have no problem with people saying essentially "you are wrong and here is why you are wrong", and then listing those reasons. <snip> The bottom line is that people sometimes say things in fits of frustration that are not as well reasoned as they should be. Why not simply contain the responses to "You are proabably wrong here's why, rethink your position."
I suspect people seem mean-spirited here when they aren't feeling as sorry for you as you feel for yourself. Everyone, and I mean every*damned*one, has problems in their lives. You are not special. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to hopefully help you understand where some of your friction here might be coming from.

As for saying things in fits of frustration, bad idea. When frustrated, walk away. Don't drive angry, don't discuss things with your spouse while angry, and don't post angry.

[Roland Deschain]

I suspect people seem mean-spirited here when they aren't feeling as sorry for you as you feel for yourself. Everyone, and I mean every*damned*one, has problems in their lives. You are not special. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to hopefully help you understand where some of your friction here might be coming from.

As for saying things in fits of frustration, bad idea. When frustrated, walk away. Don't drive angry, don't discuss things with your spouse while angry, and don't post angry.

I just think that when people disagee with something that someone has posted that they should list reasons and arguments, rather than suggesting that the OP author get counseling, find a new line of work, ect. I try never to insult an author personally instead focusing on their ideas. I hold everyone else to the same standard.

[Siege]

If I recommend a person get counseling, and in your case, I do, it's not to be insulting but because I figure they've got problems which they aren't having much luck solving on their own and which I can't help them with, while a counselor might.

Someone I know once said, "Insanity is doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results." You don't look like you like the results you're getting, so why do you keep doing things the same way? Sorry, Roland Deschain. You and I haven't directly interacted yet, but I've seen you around and you appear to have genuine problems. You talk about deliberately being different from other people and being unwilling and unable to conform. Congratulations. The same applies to me. In fact, if anything, I have a knee-jerk reaction against conformity. The thing is, if I realize my behaviour is continuing to annoy people or produce other adverse results, I either change it or find a way to associate with the people I'm annoying as little as possible. That's one reason I don't hang around Christian message boards any more.

You're not cool or a rebel. What you posted about looking after Dopers or their loved ones is positively chilling. If you like the results you're getting, then, fine, stay as you are and quit complaining. Otherwise, you might want to consider taking some of the advice you've been given. Here's one specific thing you might want to consider, That long, 5-point post you made yesterday was an example of you giving too much detail in response to a question. It did nothing to improve most people's opinions of you and only confirmed my impression of you. Change or quit moaning. The choice is yours.

CJ

[Lamia]

It just never ceases to amaze me how incredibly mean spirited so many people seem to be here.If you don't like the heat, get out of the BBQ Pit.

[5que]

... Don't drive angry ...
It's Groundhog Day!

[Cat Whisperer]

I just think that when people disagee with something that someone has posted that they should list reasons and arguments, rather than suggesting that the OP author get counseling, find a new line of work, ect. I try never to insult an author personally instead focusing on their ideas. I hold everyone else to the same standard.
Then don't post such personal stuff. Don't open that door if you don't want people to walk through it.

[Giraffe]

Why not simply contain the responses to "You are proabably wrong here's why, rethink your position."You seem to think that you should be able to post whatever crazy, random, offensive thoughts pop into your head, but that other people should only respond in such a way that maximizes the benefit of the doubt for you. Fuck that. We all post here for a variety of reasons, I suspect very few post here for the primary purpose of working patiently with you to reshape your impulse posts into something coherent.

[Frank]

Giraffe! Your sig!! It's back!!!

Somehow, this whole thread is now worthwhile.

[Giraffe]

Shit, what a response! Clearly I'm gonna have to click that button more often.

If you know what I'm saying... ;)



OK, I actually have no idea what I'm saying.

[Frank]

Shit, what a response! Clearly I'm gonna have to click that button more often.
It's just one of those silly things that amuses me no end. Maybe I'm just easily amused.

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

Roland--

I'm just curious-- which nursing school do you attend? Is it IUPUI?

[sturmhauke]

Hmm, perhaps my sig is appropriate here also. I tend to forget to use it.

[Hamlet]

I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.

[Hamlet]

Let's try that again:

I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.

[Rufus Xavier]

Let's try that again:

I think my sig is also appropriate for this thread.

I disagree. Or at least I probably would, if I could see the fucking thing.

[Hamlet]

I disagree. Or at least I probably would, if I could see the fucking thing.It's a stealth sig. You can only see it if you clap your hands really hard and believe that fairies can come back to life.

That or I haven't yet mastered this damn sig thing. One of those two.

[Girl From Mars]

I was selected first in my nursing class out of 60. I had almost 200 hours of mainly Science classes that I've taken over the last 18 years and completed with a GPA of 3.8. I graduated 5th in my highschool class out of about 300 with 1240 SAT's. I scored in the 95th percentile on the ASVAB in highschool and the 90th percentile overall on the MCAT which I took about six years ago. I'm hardly a brain (usually scoring only around 115 on about every intelligence test I've ever taken), but neither am I a complete idiot at least compared to most nurses.

My problems are mainly limited to learning coordinated skills. I'm not sure why but things like shuffling cards or learning to tie knots are damm near impossible for me.

OK. so what you're saying is that you're relatively smart, but you aren't good with your hands. Nothing wrong with that. But it may mean you are not best suited to a job which is heavily weighted towards carrying out many complex manual tasks - ones which are of critical importance to do correctly, as peoples' lives depend on it.

There are many things I'd like to do, but I'm just not skilled enough to do them (I don't have the skills to be a race driver, or the patience to be a teacher, or the imagination to be a writer). I think what we find unreasonable is your attitude of deserving to be a nurse, regardess of whether (objectively) you can do the whole job well. And that you'd be willing to cheat because you don't respect the rules.

As most of us work pretty hard to live up to the various standards we encounter in life, this attitude sucks.

One of my points above was that if I was that Comp. Sci. Teacher I would have a duty to fail the students. However, I wouldn't "morally berate" them for their activities or degrade their intelligence. I would actually practice a little of the multicultural tolerance for all perspectives that is constantly pounded into my head and have respected their rights to have their own opinions (including on the subject of cheating). Hell, if I can respect the perspective of those who are pro-choice (something that I believe is nothing short of murder in many cases) I can surely respect those who cheat on an assignment. Note however, that respecting them doesn't mean not doing my duty as an instructor and enforcing the rules.


People have the right to think cheating is OK - fine - as long as they don't do it. When they do, they may impact on other peoples' ability to pass, it shows a lack of willingness to work, and yes, people then have the right to get upset. Think what you like - but when you act on it, don't get surprised when people get pissed off.


(try posting with two or three dogs barking, a Television blaring and your four year old son pulling on your arm hoping that you can finish your post before your wife walks in and casts a glance that says "shouldn't you be studying" and you have a glimpse into my world.)

Well shouldn't you be studying? You're struggling to pass as you can't meet the skill level of your peers, and the answer to that is to try harder, not to shrug and say, "I have trouble with that stuff, but you should pass me regardless".

You say noone else in your class is having problems with this? That may not be because they can all do it easily - probably most of them are practicing this stuff ad nauseum.

Learn from this - practice this stuff, badger your lecturers until they run at the sight of you. If you can't be bothered doing this, but still want to complain that it's unfair, well tough. That's not what we're here for.

[Naughtyman]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ericrapp/133977.html
Letters to Penthouse Forum by Famous Writers

only relevant thing I could find, kind of surprising, turns out this is more original than I suspected

[Rufus Xavier]

It's a stealth sig. You can only see it if you clap your hands really hard and believe that fairies can come back to life.

That or I haven't yet mastered this damn sig thing. One of those two.


This may actually prove to be a better sig line than the one you already have.........

[Roland Deschain]

No way would I say which nursing school I go to since I suspect that if my teachers felt as many of you do that I wouldn't be there very long (and then my wife would leave me for posting on boards without a doubt).

No, I'm not particularly good with my hands. However, I can learn the skills to the point where I am competent it just takes more effort on my part. If I had my "study partners" from last semester it wouldn't be a problem, but this semester I have no one to study with. The program is really built around the presumption that you will have study partners and be able to review frequently with each other.

In addition, keep in mind that there are many jobs in nursing that require minimal use of "hands on" skills. Indeed, some advanced practice nurses do few or no actual procedures instead focusing on management of chronic problems (I'm thinking of Family and Acute Care Practictioners here). I can become proficient in these skills I'm just not sure that I can do it in the two weeks I get to do this.

[Muffin]

No way would I say which nursing school I go to since I suspect that if my teachers felt as many of you do that I wouldn't be there very longAs a public service, turn yourself in.

[Roland Deschain]

As a public service, turn yourself in.

I would imagine then that if I took your advice and effectively quit nursing school that you would have no problem if I didn't pay my $30,000 plus in student loans back? Heck, your tax money has also paid me thousands in Pell and other Grants that have allowed me to get to this point in my education. After all you are advocating that I quit the avenue of education which offers me and my family are greatest shot at escaping a life of poverity. Again, I challenge you to suggest a more appropriate line of work for me (where I can actually get a job) that will allow me to support my family at a level equal to or better than nursing. IF you cannot then I am not inclined to take your advice. On the other hand if you can then I will definitely listen and consider your alternatives.

Again, you keep saying that I should quit school without acknowleding that I am intimately involved in patient care right now. The main difference between me becoming an RN and continueing in my current job as a CNA/QNA (where I administer medication and do other nursing procedures) is that I will make much more money and have health insurence. Indeed, I might actually be able to afford the "counseling" that so many of you seem to think that I need.

[Zoe]

I just think that when people disagee with something that someone has posted that they should list reasons and arguments, rather than suggesting that the OP author get counseling, find a new line of work, ect. I try never to insult an author personally instead focusing on their ideas. I hold everyone else to the same standard.

I have focused on your ideas in this thread and have gathered from what you have said that you are not content with your life. I am not a physician, but you do show some signs of clinical depression (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx22.htm) and, from what you have said, they have been going on for a while. (Symptoms can develop over time. The psychological tests that you took last year might not reveal problems that you might have now.) I think that you have become ill and should see a doctor. You find that insulting. I may be mistaken and I hope that I am. That still doesn't make my suggestion an insult anymore than pointing out that you have developed a tremor on the right side of your face.

You have left enough hints in your messages for someone to figure out where you live (using the yellow pages) if she or he wanted to and if you have not been just BSing. If you think the school of nursing would bust you, you are probably right for a reason. But I am leaving this in the hands of people who know more about this sort of thing.

I feel embarassed for you and concern for the welfare of your child. But there are others to consider besides you -- a lot more people.

Keep in mind that what we think of you is none of your business until we choose to write it here. We don't owe you an opinion at all. We aren't responsible for coming up with solutions or alternatives for you although some tried.

[Roland Deschain]

I'm rather certain that I do not meet the guidelines for clinical depression. Generally speaking I love life. No, I don't like being a hundred pounds overweight, but I also understand that I am responsible for that condition due to my behavior and can change that situation by changing my behavior. Yes, I wish we had more money and didn't have to struggle with bills so much, but I can see how things are getting better in large part due to plans put in place years ago (for example the decision that my wife and I made to go back to school, and the fact that she has now graduated high in her ASN class). I think that you mistake my penchant for taking what many consider to be "extremest positions" and then defending them with all of my rhetorical might as evidence of depression. I do this in the hopes that I will cause some to examine issues from perspectives that they had not previously considered. I would say that I am what Walter Williams likes to call (a frequent guest host on Rush Limbaugh's show) an extreme Individualist. Furthermore, I don't think that my school would have any "legal" basis to "bust" me. However, that doesn't mean that some wouldn't find a way to give me a hard time anyway.

[Zoe]

And I fully acknowledge that weight and a lack of energy alone do not indicate depression.

I'm glad to hear that you are not as destitute as you seemed earlier.

I think that you mistake my penchant for taking what many consider to be "extremest positions" and then defending them with all of my rhetorical might as evidence of depression. I do this in the hopes that I will cause some to examine issues from perspectives that they had not previously considered. I would say that I am what Walter Williams likes to call (a frequent guest host on Rush Limbaugh's show) an extreme Individualist.

Not really. The term "extreme individualist" means nothing unless it has some substance. The word individualist never needs the word extreme added to it, for one thing.

Lenny Bruce. Jack Kerouac. Picasso. Colette. Thoreau. Whitman. Isadora Duncan. Gandhi.

It's not that you have to be famous. But coherence helps. Do you really think you've made anyone reconsider cheating as a valid option?

BTW, the school could legally remove you if they thought that you were a danger to patients, faculty or other students. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, they are a private school.

I've run out of caramel corn so I guess I'll have to see you in another thread.

[Roland Deschain]

I hoped to make the point that if you are going to have respect for ALL perspectives then you must respect those who consider "cheating" to be an "adaptive" form of behavior (that doesn't mean that you don't enforce the rules against them. I respect prostitutes as providing a valuble service. However, if I were a police officer I wouldn't hesistate to arrest them because it would be my job).

I am extremely "pro life" and consider abortion in most cases to be nothing short of infanticide. Indeed, I consider it a moral wrong on a level that equals slavery and approaches (but doesn't quite reach) the Holocaust. However, I am told that I MUST respect the position of those who believe that it is an acceptable "choice". Fine, I will do that at least in the context of secular society when I'm at work and at school. However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt.






And I fully acknowledge that weight and a lack of energy alone do not indicate depression.

I'm glad to hear that you are not as destitute as you seemed earlier.



Not really. The term "extreme individualist" means nothing unless it has some substance. The word individualist never needs the word extreme added to it, for one thing.

Lenny Bruce. Jack Kerouac. Picasso. Colette. Thoreau. Whitman. Isadora Duncan. Gandhi.

It's not that you have to be famous. But coherence helps. Do you really think you've made anyone reconsider cheating as a valid option?

BTW, the school could legally remove you if they thought that you were a danger to patients, faculty or other students. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, they are a private school.

I've run out of caramel corn so I guess I'll have to see you in another thread.

[Muffin]

Heck, your tax money has also paid me thousands
Nope. Not one cent of the taxes I pay go toward you or your eduation.

Presently you are taking up space in a program. Let someone else who can handle the program have that place.

As far as your debt goes, pay it off with whatever job you find, hopefully in a career where you do not have the chance to hurt others.

[Muffin]

However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt.Ethically bankrupt for having concerns about health professionals cheating on their exams? Dude, you should not attempt to be a medical professional; instead you should seek help from a medical professional.

[sturmhauke]

...those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans.
So what, you're gonna use that as a justification for all your crap? If someone complains you did your job wrong, are you gonna say, "Well you shouldn't be upset because THERE ARE PEOPLE KILLING BABIES ON PURPOSE EVERY DAY!" That's like, totally fuckin' lame, dude.

[The Scrivener]

[another pointless Randian hijack] Feb. 2 (yesterday) was Miss Rand's 100th-birthday anniversary. [URL=http://www.aldaily.com/(Debates ensue -- see top item in third column.)[/URL] [/apRh]

[Siege]

Roland, I also love life and enjoy it greatly. It doesn't mean I don't suffer from clinical depression and it didn't stop me from winding up flat on my back in the hospital when I didn't seek treatment for it. Indeed, the people I've known who have clinical depression tend to have great senses of humour when they're not depressed. People who know a thing or two about mental illness have recommended you seek help. What would you do if one of your patients refused to seek treatment for an ailment they don't believe they have even though they're showing several symptoms of it?

CJ

[Jillyvn]

I am extremely "pro life" and consider abortion in most cases to be nothing short of infanticide. Indeed, I consider it a moral wrong on a level that equals slavery and approaches (but doesn't quite reach) the Holocaust. However, I am told that I MUST respect the position of those who believe that it is an acceptable "choice". Fine, I will do that at least in the context of secular society when I'm at work and at school. However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt.

Woo boy. I'm jumping on this trainwreck early, 'cause I can't keep my mouth shut. And since it is the pit.

God damnit I'm sick and fucking tired of the anti-choice assholes out there who insist on comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Hedging your comparison by saying it doesn't "quite" approach the magnitude of the Holocaust is equally as offensive. I have to say, I've met many a person opposed to abortion who I've managed to have many intelligent and reasoned conversations with, and I respect their opinion. I DO NOT respect the zealots who jump aboard the choice, between a woman and her body. The Holocaust was the organizeBÏânocide of millions of people (people, mind you, not lumps of cells with the potential to be people). IMHO, you're not better than those assholes who stand outside universities, family planning and abortion clinics with pictures of dead fetuses.

And, you expect to work in the Health Care profession when you hold these extremist views? I certainly hope you never work anywhere where you might come close to a woman who needs to make this decision.

[Roland Deschain]

Here is the analogy like it or not. If the year was 1943 and a Nazi SS member in Berlin said "I cannot stand all of these people who fake injuries to avoid having to fight in the war." I would not have much respect for his opinion. He is a genocidal zealot bent on destroying much of humanity, in the context of his idelogy those who fake injuries to avoid serving their country would seem to trivial to consider.

In the same way I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on computer science programs when many of their professors endorse a practice that I believe to be so evil that it removes them from the ranks of civilized humans.

By the way I passed my most challenging compentencies this week and the instructor said that I did one of the best jobs in the class. It is likely that I will maintain my number one ranking (or at least stay in the top five) and go on to graduate. Since I've already taken several NCLEX pretests and scored higher than my wife (who just took the real test and passed with only 85 questions) it is likely that I will go on to become a nurse. Thus, I respectively request that those of you have been insulting kiss my ass.

[Roland Deschain]

I consider abortion for reasons other than the life of the mother to be the organized, legalized slaughter of innocent babies. How can someone believe that babies are being legally slaughtered and not believe that it is one of the greatest wrongs in human history? How many millions die each year? What is worse it strikes the poor and minorities to a disproportionate degree. Indeed, it is hard to research the history of Margaret Sanger and others and not to conclude that their support of abortion was largely grounded in their desire to have a society based on their definition of "eugenics" not unlike the Nazis.

Of course some of you may point out that "two wrongs don't make a right" and on this I have to agree. Cheating is not morally acceptible behavior either. However, it is the righteous "tone" of those who condemn the practice that I oppose in light of the great crimes against humanity represented by abortion.


Woo boy. I'm jumping on this trainwreck early, 'cause I can't keep my mouth shut. And since it is the pit.

God damnit I'm sick and fucking tired of the anti-choice assholes out there who insist on comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Hedging your comparison by saying it doesn't "quite" approach the magnitude of the Holocaust is equally as offensive. I have to say, I've met many a person opposed to abortion who I've managed to have many intelligent and reasoned conversations with, and I respect their opinion. I DO NOT respect the zealots who jump aboard the choice, between a woman and her body. The Holocaust was the organizeBÏânocide of millions of people (people, mind you, not lumps of cells with the potential to be people). IMHO, you're not better than those assholes who stand outside universities, family planning and abortion clinics with pictures of dead fetuses.

And, you expect to work in the Health Care profession when you hold these extremist views? I certainly hope you never work anywhere where you might come close to a woman who needs to make this decision.

[Jillyvn]

Here is the analogy like it or not. If the year was 1943 and a Nazi SS member in Berlin said "I cannot stand all of these people who fake injuries to avoid having to fight in the war." I would not have much respect for his opinion. He is a genocidal zealot bent on destroying much of humanity, in the context of his idelogy those who fake injuries to avoid serving their country would seem to trivial to consider.

In the same way I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on computer science programs when many of their professors endorse a practice that I believe to be so evil that it removes them from the ranks of civilized humans.



It never ceases to amaze me how the uneducated masses persist on using Nazi Germany as an analogy for anything, in light of their evident lack of understanding of the history.

It's not a matter of "like it or not". Your analogy is spurious and inflammatory, and completely idiotic to boot.

As for your last paragraph... which practice are the professors endorses that is so evil? Are you talking about abortion again? I'm so confused.

I consider abortion for reasons other than the life of the mother to be the organized, legalized slaughter of innocent babies. How can someone believe that babies are being legally slaughtered and not believe that it is one of the greatest wrongs in human history? How many millions die each year? What is worse it strikes the poor and minorities to a disproportionate degree. Indeed, it is hard to research the history of Margaret Sanger and others and not to conclude that their support of abortion was largely grounded in their desire to have a society based on their definition of "eugenics" not unlike the Nazis.

Of course some of you may point out that "two wrongs don't make a right" and on this I have to agree. Cheating is not morally acceptible behavior either. However, it is the righteous "tone" of those who condemn the practice that I oppose in light of the great crimes against humanity represented by abortion.

And thus, I quote my favourite pro-choice argument.

How incredibly enlightened of you, from your pulpit of moral authority, to declare the destruction of a fetus "legalized slaughter". I'm certain that you must have some alternative arrangement in place for women who find themselves pregnant? And don't quote that bullshit "they can just give it up for adoption" argument. Until you're willing to give up 9 months of your life, completely altering your body and affecting your ability to work in the last month, only to give a way a child you may or may not find yourself attached to as a result of hormones or whatever, you have no right to demand this of women you don't even know.

If you love all the babies that are being slaughtered so very much, may I suggest you take them all on? How about supporting the mom who can't afford the kid. $20,000 a year should do it. And while you're at it, be sure to put some money aside so jr. can go to school.

All the zealots (not the regular, run-of-the-mill folks opposed to abortion) seem to love the damn fetuses so much, but don't give a shit about them once they are born.

And now your viewpoint on Margaret Sanger:

Indeed, it is hard to research the history of Margaret Sanger and others and not to conclude that their support of abortion was largely grounded in their desire to have a society based on their definition of "eugenics" not unlike the Nazis.

I'm assuming you're getting this junk from sites like this?
http://www.lancasterlife.com/nazism_planned_parenthood.html

Tell me, Roland. Where is your educational background in the Eugenics policy of Nazi Germany or eugenics in general? Are you aware of social theory and history prior to the genocide?

What a ridiculously extreme viewpoint.

[sturmhauke]

You know there are a lot of Jews here, right? One is my wife. You aren't making any friends with your "abortion is almost like the Holocaust" bullshit. Oh, I forgot, you're an individualist. Well go be an individualist somewhere else, we don't like you.

[Jillyvn]

I think Roland is suffering from a common delusion I find to be prevalent amoungst extremists, whatever stripe they are. Taking things out of context or disregarding completely context. Nuance and research are not the friends of these extremists.

Roland, please read this link: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/birthcontrol/bio-margaret-sanger.xml

The anti-choice information you've gotten and which you are now spewing on this board is completely wrong about Ms. Sanger. I enourage you to learn a little history before you start fucking around with comparing someone who has had such a profound effect on the lives of women to Nazis.

And, frankly, the previous poster is correct. The fact that you would co-opt the tragedy of the Holocaust for your own rhetorical purpose is disgusting and won't win you any friends here. If you legitimately want to pursue an open dialogue, PLEASE do some research before you post like a fucking moron. (this is the pit right? I can say that?)

[vetbridge]

try posting with two or three dogs barking, a Television blaring and your four year old son pulling on your arm


Few things are cooler than a four year old and the impact you can have on the adult he will some day be. One day he will not be pulling on your arm and you may miss his eagerness to interact with you. Compared to your son, the SDMB aint shit. Why not step away from the 'puter and play with him?

/lecture

[Hal Briston]

For example I am seriously considering Medical Records Abministration something my aunt did until she was almost 80 for nursing homes earning her close to 100K per year (and she was half nuts the last 20 years of her life).
Hey, look, an apple. And it's right there on the ground, next to that tree.

[Hamlet]

For example I am seriously considering Medical Records Abministration something my aunt did until she was almost 80 for nursing homes earning her close to 100K per year (and she was half nuts the last 20 years of her life).If it's any consolation, Roland, you're twice the type of person your aunt was in the last 20 years of her life.

[Muffin]

That's quite the logical connection: because some people do not oppose abortion, you should be able to cheat on your courses. Right . . . :rolleyes:

[Roland Deschain]

No the connection is better stated as "many of the people who protest the ethical shortcomings of cheating are also pro-choice." I am suggesting that it is difficult for me to understand their "moral" tone about something that is comparitively small potatos relative to the killing of innocents.

Also, I don't buy this modern "PC" notion that the Holocaust and the Nazis who fostered it cannot be alluded to in order to illustrate other evils. The Holocaust wasn't just a tradgedy for just one group of people, but rather was a lesson for the whole world. I might have instead said that it would be difficult for me to sympathize with a Hutu that participated in the genocide of Tootsies who also happened to teach a math class and was complaining about his cheating students. Of course for all I know the OP computer science teacher might even be pro-life. I wasn't talking about his post (which provided the original genesis for this thread), but rather the reaction of many of you (who I know or suspect to be pro-choice from your other posts) with moral indignation at the thought that someone would advocate cheating.

I say that if abortion is a choice then so is cheating and while it is not the best one (for yourself or others) to make it pales in comparison to the choice of killing an innocent life. Furthermore, if I am to refrain from judging those who have chosen to terminate the life in their wombs often for less than profound reasons, then so to must you refrain from condeming those who have chosen to cheat for reasons which may be profound at least to them (or not).

[Roland Deschain]

With all due respect giving me a link to Planned Parenthood in order to support your point would be like me offering up www.RushLimbaugh.com to you.

I think Roland is suffering from a common delusion I find to be prevalent amoungst extremists, whatever stripe they are. Taking things out of context or disregarding completely context. Nuance and research are not the friends of these extremists.

Roland, please read this link: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/birthcontrol/bio-margaret-sanger.xml

The anti-choice information you've gotten and which you are now spewing on this board is completely wrong about Ms. Sanger. I enourage you to learn a little history before you start fucking around with comparing someone who has had such a profound effect on the lives of women to Nazis.

And, frankly, the previous poster is correct. The fact that you would co-opt the tragedy of the Holocaust for your own rhetorical purpose is disgusting and won't win you any friends here. If you legitimately want to pursue an open dialogue, PLEASE do some research before you post like a fucking moron. (this is the pit right? I can say that?)

[danceswithcats]

I might have instead said that it would be difficult for me to sympathize with a Hutu that participated in the genocide of Tootsies who also happened to teach a math class and was complaining about his cheating students.

So you're claiming that the Hutus systematically killed chocolate candies or Herb Woodley's wife, or both?

[bobkitty]

So you're claiming that the Hutus systematically killed chocolate candies or Herb Woodley's wife, or both?

Or a Dustin Hoffman character. Whatever. :p

[Frank]

I might have instead said that it would be difficult for me to sympathize with a Hutu that participated in the genocide of Tootsies who also happened to teach a math class and was complaining about his cheating students.
It's Ayn Tootsie.

[Excalibre]

I realize that you may find some of my posts offensive, but do you have to be so fucking personal in your replies? It's one thing to say that I'm a creep, and another to say that I'm a potential, deliberate killer.
Yep, we do. Know why? Because we don't like you. Why do you continue to post things that piss everyone here off and then whine about the results? Do you expect some sort of special treatment? Roland has the right to make absurd, asinine, or offensive statements, and everyone else just has to put up with it? Why are you so unendingly obnoxious if you don't like being insulted in return?


Furthermore, I was trying to illustrate that if you really want this perfect "multicultural utopia" where all values are relative and cannot be judged by anyone else, then you don't get to pick and choose your values. So you want gay marriage? Fine, then don't complain when I demand that polygamy be legalized (among consenting adults). You want legalized abortion on demand for women? Fine, then as a man I should be able to dictate that the women I impregnate MUST have an abortion or give the child up for adoption since her choice to keep the child compels me to pay childsupport or fact prison (in other words its my body thats effected too).
It's funny you would pick these two examples, as they've been discussed to death here. Actually, at least on the SDMB, virtually no one is opposed to polyamory, and the only reason we don't wholeheartedly endorse polyamorous marriages is the simple legal difficulties posed by inheritance, divorce and child custody, etc. And the second point has been argued to death; I won't even bother to sum up the arguments here because a quick glance through GD would help you understand why this is an untenable view.

But you're not actually interested in discussion or debate. You're interested in trying to find positions that seem "individualistic" and "non-conformist". So you start troll threads like this one just in order to get that warm glow of being outrageous. Sweetie, we ain't outraged yet. Just annoyed. You're pretty tame and middle-of-the-road when it comes to most people here.


1. I try never to insult anyone personally or hurt anyone's feelings. For me this is my personal Prime Directive. Life is often shitty enough without people deliberately saying things to make it worse. Believe it or not I really like most people, even most people who can't stand me. Instead I try to challenge ideas especially those associated with so called Conventional Wisdom which I normally can't stand. It is my hope that I occassionally get people to look at an issue from a perspective which they hadn't previously considered.
That's very nice. You won't do well in the pit. See, in here, the SDMB throws out the normal social restrictions on insulting others. You oughta like that, being such a non-conformist and all.


5. Beyond that I say what I honestly think to Hell with the consequences. It doesn't matter if my wife threatens to leave me for posting, you threaten to ban me or George Bush himself threatened to send me to Gitmo (frankly I operate by the same criteria in most areas of my life operating by to the beat of my own drummer with little regard to the consequences). I must not be that nuts having never been arrested (although occassinoally fired) for my attitudes.
So stop with the constant fucking whining at the consequences. You act like an obnoxious, pathetic idiot, and everyone else hates you. Either stop doing the first, or accept the second with some modicum of grace, because it's the consequence of the first.


1. I am fairly sure that its Ayn Rand. I made a spelling error which is common for me (try posting with two or three dogs barking, a Television blaring and your four year old son pulling on your arm hoping that you can finish your post before your wife walks in and casts a glance that says "shouldn't you be studying" and you have a glimpse into my world.) I apply Kant's conversational implicature to others and expect that they do the same with me. Indeed, I remember taking a logic class many years ago and Kant's conversational implicature was presented as the central tenet to all civilized discourse.
The reason we laugh at you is because it was such a transparent attempt to try to sound smarter by mentioning the name of someone famous. Turns out we're familiar with the woman and you're not. Stop trying to seem smarter than other folks. This is about the only place where I've run into people who are smarter than I am; in this circumstance, it behooves you not to try to impress others, because you'll fail at it clumsily.


Your advice is noted. It just never ceases to amaze me how incredibly mean spirited so many people seem to be here.
Too fucking bad, you whiny little bitch. See, here we have the opportunity to be as mean as we like. Notice that it's rarely taken. It turns out a lot of people here just don't like you. That's because of how you act.


I have no problem with people saying essentially "you are wrong and here is why you are wrong", and then listing those reasons. Sometimes as was the case in this thread I realize the logical problems with my assertions almost as soon as I post them (bascially, I was responding to what I thought was an overly negative tone by the Comp Sci. teacher against his cheating students).
It was a moronic post. We're not stupid here. Perhaps you were a victim of the public schools' habit of telling the children that every view deserves to be heard, and everyone's special, and blah blah blah . . . . Well, Roland, here you'll be glad to learn that we don't put much stock in that touchy-feely idiocy. So if you have something to say, that's fine, but if it's a moronic waste of my time, I don't have to be nice in response. We expect folks to have the personal responsibility to decide whether their own views have any value. And no, not every view has value, even if it did ooze out of your head.


However, people around here often don't seem satisfied to simply say "that was a bad post, rethink your arguments" they have to "go for the jugular" and suggest I shouldn't be allowed to continue school, graduate, or practice in my chosen profession. I admit that saying I would use any method fare or foul to graduate was over the line.
(Emphasis mine.) So you got your ass kicked by the "fowl" jokes, you say this again, and you spare "fair" wrong this time? :D Sorry babe, but even if you're not going to try to cheat your way through school, you've already established that you're too stupid to succeed in your classes. If this isn't actually true, then pray explain to us how we're supposed to determine when you're being serious and when you're posting lies just to get a rise out of us? You said it, we believed you (you know, because grown-ups don't lie when they're talking about things.) If you don't like the consequences of lying, stop doing it, fucktard.

Personally, between what you've said about your scholastic difficulties, and just your own behavior, it's clear to me that you're far too fucking stupid to be a competent medical professional. But competence is a rare trait nowadays. Perhaps I expect too much.


IF I stated in frustration that "I'm going to take your advice and drop out of school and dedicate the rest of my life to aiding Al Qaida to cross SARS and Avian influenza to try and create a world wide plague" I suspect that some of you guys would be suggesting that President Bush have me interred at Gitmo as a noncombattent. The bottom line is that people sometimes say things in fits of frustration that are not as well reasoned as they should be. Why not simply contain the responses to "You are proabably wrong here's why, rethink your position."
Yeah, that's what Gitmo's for. Why, should we look into that?

Jesus, you idiot! Don't you get it? People here are nice to most everyone else. We just apparently don't like you. Probably because you're such an annoying, whiny little bitch. Don't go around posting lies (at least not ones that make you look bad!) if you don't want people responding as if they were true. What, you think we have a crack team of investigators to determine whether you're being honest or just using a moronic sort of rhetorical tool? "Send in the team, guys, we need to see Roland's grades!"

I mean, what the fuck? What are we supposed to respond to? What you post apparently is sometimes complete lies, sometimes it's positions you don't hold (but you want to get a rise out of us anyway) - so how do we know when to take you at face value and when to assume you're just lying yet again? Why should we have to? Why can't you argue your points using honest debate techniques like everyone else here? If you have to resort to Rush Limbaugh-style idiocy in order to argue your points, either your points aren't very good or you're fucking stupid for GD.


I would imagine then that if I took your advice and effectively quit nursing school that you would have no problem if I didn't pay my $30,000 plus in student loans back? Heck, your tax money has also paid me thousands in Pell and other Grants that have allowed me to get to this point in my education. After all you are advocating that I quit the avenue of education which offers me and my family are greatest shot at escaping a life of poverity. Again, I challenge you to suggest a more appropriate line of work for me (where I can actually get a job) that will allow me to support my family at a level equal to or better than nursing. IF you cannot then I am not inclined to take your advice. On the other hand if you can then I will definitely listen and consider your alternatives.
Look. You've established on your own that you're too fucking stupid to be a nurse. So now it's everyone else's responsibility to find you a job you're not too stupid for? What kind of sense does that make? I thought you were a conservative. You know, self-reliance, honest labor, etc. So I guess you only believe in those things for other people; for yourself, you want everything handed to you. How utterly fucking pitiful.

You know, Roland, despite the fact that I don't like you, I'm rather fond of all these posts filled with you wallowing in self-pity. Know why? Because when you're sitting around sobbing about how mean everyone here is to you, it's about the only thing that makes me forget just how pitiful you are. And the funniest part about you is how you've created every one of your problems yourself. You've obviously gotten into a profession you can't handle, you're married to that castrating bitch, and you constantly, constantly say idiotic, obnoxious things, and then start to cry when people respond. I mean, every one of your problems is your own making, so I can just submit to my worst impulses and enjoy your misery.

Good job being a non-conformist, by the way. No doubt any day your strange, foreign ideas will shock us all out of our slumber! (You know, if you start coming up with ones we haven't already discussed to death. Man, you're even a pitiful excuse for a non-conformist.)

[Jillyvn]

With all due respect giving me a link to Planned Parenthood in order to support your point would be like me offering up www.RushLimbaugh.com to you.

Sigh.

Fine, Roland. You're limiting me to web resources, but here we go.

Let us start with this: (link) (http://www.csu.edu.au/learning/ncgr/gpi/grn/edures/scope.28.html)
The entry under "eugenics" in the Encyclopedia of Bioethics notes that the term has had different meanings in different eras: "a science that investigates methods to ameliorate the genetic composition of the human race; a program to foster such betterment; a social movement; and in its perverted form, a pseudoscientific retreat for bigots and racists" (V, Ludmerer 1978, p. 457) . Kevles, who places a stronger emphasis than Ludmerer on the degeneration of eugenics, says that by 1935 it "had become 'hopelessly perverted' into a pseudoscientific facade for 'advocates of race and class prejudice, defenders of vested interests of church and state, Fascists, Hitlerites, and reactionaries generally'"

Now, lets talk about Margie:

From NYU's Margaret Sanger Project: (link) (http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/msbio.htm)
With the suppression of the radical left after World War I, Sanger decided to expand support for birth control by promoting it on the basis of medical and public health needs. In 1917 she established a new monthly, the Birth Control Review, and in 1921 she embarked on a campaign of education and publicity designed to win mainstream support for birth control by opening the American Birth Control League. She focused many of her efforts on gaining support from the medical profession, social workers, and the liberal wing of the eugenics movement. She increasingly rationalized birth control as a means of reducing genetically transmitted mental or physical defects, and at times supported sterilization for the mentally incompetent. While she did not advocate efforts to limit population growth solely on the basis of class, ethnicity or race, and refused to encourage positive race-based eugenics, Sanger's reputation was permanently tainted by her association with the reactionary wing of the eugenics movement.

So now we need to hold hands and dissect the early eugenics movement, which while offensive to us now, was popular at the time. There are two separate branches in the early eugenics movement: one that sought to improve man's gene pool through selective breeding and one that sought to weed out the undesirables. There is a difference in mindset here, and though both seem equally offensive to us now, the undertanding of these differences is critical in dissecting the radical turn of Margaret Sanger.

The father of Eugenics was Galton. From a New Yorker review of a book on his life: ((link) (http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?050124crbo_books)
But where Darwin had thought mainly about the evolution of physical features, like wings and eyes, Galton applied the same hereditary logic to mental attributes, like talent and virtue.“If a twentieth part of the cost and pains were spent in measures for the improvement of the human race that is spent on the improvements of the breed of horses and cattle, what a galaxy of genius might we not create!” he wrote in an 1864 magazine article, his opening eugenics salvo. It was two decades later that he coined the word “eugenics,” from the Greek for “wellborn.”

and

In his long career, Galton didn’t come close to proving the central axiom of eugenics: that, when it comes to talent and virtue, nature dominates nurture. Yet he never doubted its truth, and many scientists came to share his conviction. Darwin himself, in “The Descent of Man,” wrote, “We now know, through the admirable labours of Mr. Galton, that genius . . . tends to be inherited.” Given this axiom, there are two ways of putting eugenics into practice: “positive” eugenics, which means getting superior people to breed more; and “negative” eugenics, which means getting inferior ones to breed less. For the most part, Galton was a positive eugenicist. He stressed the importance of early marriage and high fertility among the genetic élite, fantasizing about lavish state-funded weddings in Westminster Abbey with the Queen giving away the bride as an incentive.

However, the eugenics movement took a distinctly more ominous turn under Nazi Germany. Like many other ideas popular at the time, Hitler and his ilk took the idea of Eugenics and expanded it, morphing it into a twisted justification for thier policy of racial hygeine.

The co-mingling of science, politics, and Weltanschauung (ideological or religious world view) caused the darkest period for eugenics when Nazi Germans embarked on their "final solution" to the Jewish "problem", or the Holocaust. The Nazi racial-hygiene program began with involuntary sterilizations and ended with genocide. Beginning with the 1933 Law for the Prevention of Congenitally Ill Progeny, 350,000 schizophrenic and other mentally ill persons were involuntarily sterilized, and marriage or sexual contact between Jews and other Germans was banned. Several hundred black children and 30,000 German Gypsies were sterilized. By 1945, when the allies liberated those remaining in Nazi concentration camps, six million Jews, 750,000 Gypsies, and 70,000 German psychiatric patients had been killed by the Nazis (III, Müller-Hill 1992, p. 47) . As a result of the German experience, eugenic thought dropped to its nadir, and to the present day, the term "eugenics" invokes a sense of horror in some people.

So, what happens amoungst the idiotic faction of the pro-life wing is that they take the complex and multi-faceted history of the eugenics movement and dumb it down to the common perception of the term, "Eugenics = Nazi". Margaret Sanger subscribed to some ideal of Eugenics, therefor she was a Nazi. Nazis were racist, therefor Margaret is racist. Nazis=bad, therefor pro-choice=Nazi=bad.

It's extremely faulty reasoning based on fallacious information, intended to provoke an emotional response in undereducated and reactionary people. They rely on the masses not to know better, and you fell into this trap Roland.

[Jillyvn]

Also, I don't buy this modern "PC" notion that the Holocaust and the Nazis who fostered it cannot be alluded to in order to illustrate other evils. The Holocaust wasn't just a tradgedy for just one group of people, but rather was a lesson for the whole world. I might have instead said that it would be difficult for me to sympathize with a Hutu that participated in the genocide of Tootsies who also happened to teach a math class and was complaining about his cheating students. Of course for all I know the OP computer science teacher might even be pro-life. I wasn't talking about his post (which provided the original genesis for this thread), but rather the reaction of many of you (who I know or suspect to be pro-choice from your other posts) with moral indignation at the thought that someone would advocate cheating.

I say that if abortion is a choice then so is cheating and while it is not the best one (for yourself or others) to make it pales in comparison to the choice of killing an innocent life. Furthermore, if I am to refrain from judging those who have chosen to terminate the life in their wombs often for less than profound reasons, then so to must you refrain from condeming those who have chosen to cheat for reasons which may be profound at least to them (or not).

Oh my my my.

Roland, you are severly lacking in the analogy department.

Will someone with a background in philosophy, logic and argument techniques please chime in here and tell Roland why is logic is all fucked up?

[Excalibre]

Oh my my my.

Roland, you are severly lacking in the analogy department.

Will someone with a background in philosophy, logic and argument techniques please chime in here and tell Roland why is logic is all fucked up?
Well, for starters, I've eaten tootsie rolls in my time. I hardly think it's fair to call it genocide.

[eleanorigby]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but Roland, you are NOT a nurse. From your posts, you are a CNA-a Certified Nursing Assistant. Are you an LPN? LVN? No? And you are not YET an RN--YOU ARE NOT A NURSE; YOU ARE NOT A NURSE; YOU ARE NOT A NURSE; YOU ARE NOT A NURSE; YOU ARE NOT A NURSE.

Sorry, but it bears repeating: Roland: You. Are. NOT. a. nurse.

It is unfortunate that you find the psychomotor skills so difficult. You might want to look into testing/evaluation of those deficits so that your nursing school experience could be adapted and enhanced--ask at the school about the ADA act and nursing programs. There may be help for you there. But do NOT call yourself a nurse, please.

[eleanorigby]

Roland said,"I am extremely "pro life" and consider abortion in most cases to be nothing short of infanticide. Indeed, I consider it a moral wrong on a level that equals slavery and approaches (but doesn't quite reach) the Holocaust. However, I am told that I MUST respect the position of those who believe that it is an acceptable "choice". Fine, I will do that at least in the context of secular society when I'm at work and at school. However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt."


I am ignoring the strange abortion stuff for now. Let's take it from here:

However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt."


You symbolically spit on that value system, eh? You declare those who suscribe to a value system other than yours to be morally bankrupt, eh?
Where has anyone said that cheating is OK? Where has anyone (ever) said that abortions are fun and a great way to meet a doctor? (which seems to be your attitude towards the women who must have AB's--or some sorta shit like that. Have you ever met anyone who has had an abortion? They are not covered in scales. They don't have cloven feet. But you, you from your exalted moral position :rolleyes: --you have judged these women regardless. Who the hell are you to throw stones?
You, who would rather play on the Internet than play with your son or do your homework--who the hell do you think you are? And then you whine--"don't pick on me". get real!

Stop nursing school now, please. Have you NOT had the lecture (ad infinitum when I went) that essentially says, "meet the patient where he is"? As an RN, you are expected to NOT judge those whom you treat, you are expected to SHOW respect, compassion and consideration for those whose values you do not share. You say you're "fine" with it--with having to put up with "it". It doesn't sound like you're fine to me. First you do no harm--first rule of the Hippocratic oath--that's medical, but it's in the Nightingale one, too. "Harm" includes not respecting a person's gender, age, ethnicity, SES, sexual orientation, language, values. You treat the arrested suspect the same as the nun--to be concrete about it. You are to recognize the essential human-ness of ALL pts.

It's called being professional. It's called being a wholistic, compassionate healthcare provider.
I am so angry right now at the crap from this guy, I could puke. You are NO nurse, Mr. Roland--very far from it.

I cannot even begin to equate cheating on an exam with the lady and tiger choice of abortion. To me this speaks to a lack of critical thinking skills (nursing IS critical thinking) that is frightening.

Jeebus-we need nurses, but we don't need this kind of nurse. You seriously think that you are gonna graduate and get the cushy paperwork job with NO experience as an RN? I hope and pray you're in a BSN program, if that is the case. An ADN won't get you far........and you better look straight at MSN, if you want no pt contact to threaten your comfort zone of pre-judgement.

[Roland Deschain]

I don't recall saying that I was a nurse, I thought that I was very clear about my status as a student. I also think you may be missing the larger reason for this thread:

1. Someone (a computer science teacher) has started a thread about how his stupid students had tried to cheat. I had just got home from a multicultural perspeciives class where the assignment was to identify at least 20 ways that I had oppressed minorities, and or the poor (voting for those who oppose affirmative action was one of the ways listed). My attitude was influenced by an American Religion class that I had last semester where I was taught that I had a duty as a "rational being" in a secular society to respect all religious and ethical perspectives. Examples given by the instructor included those who were Satanists, Ayn Rand followers (objectivists) and even those in NAMBLA who think that "child love" is just great (she said we could oppose the act, but had to respect the intellectual perspective). Well, FINE if I have to be a relativistic pig in order to be a functioning member of society then "you liberals" don't get to "disrespect" the perspectives which irk you, which may include those who believe in cheating. Of course rules against cheating must be enforced, but if you are going to be consistent with the "nothing can be judged" attitude you must apply it to subjects (such as cheating) that YOU find offensive. This is especially the case since I'm the ONLY one in my multicultural class that is pro-life (and was one of three in my American Religion class who identified themselves as pro life). Well guess what to us abortion for convenience is nothing short of murder. So if we have to go around and act as if abortion is just peachy (or at least refrain from stating an opinion) then this certainly applies to the lessor moral crime of cheating.



Roland said,"I am extremely "pro life" and consider abortion in most cases to be nothing short of infanticide. Indeed, I consider it a moral wrong on a level that equals slavery and approaches (but doesn't quite reach) the Holocaust. However, I am told that I MUST respect the position of those who believe that it is an acceptable "choice". Fine, I will do that at least in the context of secular society when I'm at work and at school. However, I have a hard time getting upset at those who cheat on schoolwork when those who in my mind commit infanticide are welcomed in the circles of respectible humans. I symbolically spit on that value system and all that it stands for and declaire those who subscribe to it to be ethically bankrupt."


I am ignoring the strange abortion stuff for now. Let's take it from here:



You symbolically spit on that value system, eh? You declare those who suscribe to a value system other than yours to be morally bankrupt, eh?
Where has anyone said that cheating is OK? Where has anyone (ever) said that abortions are fun and a great way to meet a doctor? (which seems to be your attitude towards the women who must have AB's--or some sorta shit like that. Have you ever met anyone who has had an abortion? They are not covered in scales. They don't have cloven feet. But you, you from your exalted moral position :rolleyes: --you have judged these women regardless. Who the hell are you to throw stones?
You, who would rather play on the Internet than play with your son or do your homework--who the hell do you think you are? And then you whine--"don't pick on me". get real!

Stop nursing school now, please. Have you NOT had the lecture (ad infinitum when I went) that essentially says, "meet the patient where he is"? As an RN, you are expected to NOT judge those whom you treat, you are expected to SHOW respect, compassion and consideration for those whose values you do not share. You say you're "fine" with it--with having to put up with "it". It doesn't sound like you're fine to me. First you do no harm--first rule of the Hippocratic oath--that's medical, but it's in the Nightingale one, too. "Harm" includes not respecting a person's gender, age, ethnicity, SES, sexual orientation, language, values. You treat the arrested suspect the same as the nun--to be concrete about it. You are to recognize the essential human-ness of ALL pts.

It's called being professional. It's called being a wholistic, compassionate healthcare provider.
I am so angry right now at the crap from this guy, I could puke. You are NO nurse, Mr. Roland--very far from it.

I cannot even begin to equate cheating on an exam with the lady and tiger choice of abortion. To me this speaks to a lack of critical thinking skills (nursing IS critical thinking) that is frightening.

Jeebus-we need nurses, but we don't need this kind of nurse. You seriously think that you are gonna graduate and get the cushy paperwork job with NO experience as an RN? I hope and pray you're in a BSN program, if that is the case. An ADN won't get you far........and you better look straight at MSN, if you want no pt contact to threaten your comfort zone of pre-judgement.

[manhattan]

I don't recall saying that I was a nurse ...

Ludovic, that's the thing. I AM A NURSE RIGHT NOW. (http://207.97.195.229/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5790934&postcount=145) EOM

[Guinastasia]

No, you don't have to respect them personally. But you DO have to treat all of your PATIENTS the same, regardless of their beliefs. You can't withhold treatment from someone if say, you find out the patient had an abortion, or give her shitty nursing care.

THAT is what it's about, moron!

[eleanorigby]

I don't recall saying that I was a nurse, I thought that I was very clear about my status as a student.

See post #145 or 146. See above, also. Do NOT call yourself a nurse--you have not yet earned that privilege.

I had just got home from a multicultural perspeciives class where the assignment was to identify at least 20 ways that I had oppressed minorities, and or the poor (voting for those who oppose affirmative action was one of the ways listed). My attitude was influenced by an American Religion class that I had last semester where I was taught that I had a duty as a "rational being" in a secular society to respect all religious and ethical perspectives. Examples given by the instructor included those who were Satanists, Ayn Rand followers (objectivists) and even those in NAMBLA who think that "child love" is just great (she said we could oppose the act, but had to respect the intellectual perspective). Well, FINE if I have to be a relativistic pig in order to be a functioning member of society then "you liberals" don't get to "disrespect" the perspectives which irk you, which may include those who believe in cheating.

Ok, I get it. I don't agree with it. Do I think your professor used extreme examples, to prove her point? Yes. Why do you insist on missing her point? Which is to tolerate different POV--EVEN when you don't agree with them? How hard is that? Personally, I think NAMBLA is nonsense and perverse, but I am tolerant of the viewpoint. Does that mean I would support such a group in my community? No, and I would not vote for people who did. I think proponents of it are misguided and need education, not firebombings etc. How hard is that? You oppose abortion. OK. But you don't get to demonize those who have AB's; you don't get to treat them with scathing contempt, especially if they are your pt. Capiche? You do get to support legislation etc.

I have a question: how have you oppressed minorities? I think that's an excellent discussion question for a nursing student--it's one designed to make you think and to raise awareness of ethnocentricity etc. Why are you taking it personally?

What is this "nothing can be judged" BS? People make judgements every damn day--life is a matter of opinion, if you look at it in a certain way. It sounds to me like you have an extremist professor, by whom you are judging all liberal minded folk--that would be generalizing and it's wrong, both professionally and personally to do so.


From this thread, I am left with a suspicion that you do not understand the duty you have to your pts--all of them, even the substance abusing, detoxing homeless. Even the ones who have abortions. Yes, even them. What will you do when you are faced with such a pt? Allow your contempt and sanctimonous BS show?

It is a privilege to care for others. You are entrusted with a great deal of responsiblity, with very little authority. It's a difficult situation and can be stressful. While I do not hold with the school of thought that considers nursing a "calling", I hold--and like many others in my field--very high standards for those who act as nurses. From your previous posts, you seem to think that RN is just a glorified aide. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[TVeblen]

Roland, you're a persistent trainwreck and the schtick's gotten stale, very stale. You've strewn technicolor inanity across several fora, overstuffed with contradictions, rationalizations and the flimsiest connections for yet more controversial hot buttons.
Originally posted by Roland Deschain (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=300614)

If "you people" don't want TMI why do you bait me like that? That's what happened in the last thread and I responded only to have the thread shut down.
<snip>
No, I'm just on a "relationship fixation" at the moment. Next week it might be serial killers or why those bastards at Wall Mart claim to have no meat by products in their cheap dog food. I have a very simple mind and it stays fixated on topics long after everyone else is ready to move on.

You're crapping all over the board. We're sick and tired of it. This is the last warning you will receive. Next stop: Boot Hill. Either rein yourself back or you will be banned.

TVeblen
for the SDMB

[dnooman]

It seems that the bell tolls for thee Roland, as I predicted shortly after your emergence on this site.

You are clearly an intelligent person, however, that does not excuse your reckless statements.

Pushing the envelope seems to be a favorite sport of yours, this is also the favorite distraction of many others on this board. The other people who remain unwarned, have a knack for not pissing people off, you lack this.

Your personal situation aside, you have a lot of things to straighten out before you can be taken seriously. Most of your questions make you seem like a creepy bastard.

"Different" does not always mean good, unique does not always mean profound, and "edgy" will often get you kicked out of a place that discourages jackassery.

You've been warned (arguably) more than any other inflammatory poster here, and you should be smart enough to learn a lesson from that.

Unfortunately though, you're not. One of two things will happen here, either you'll be booted, or you'll back off for a while, and then get booted.

Sayonara, in advance.

[Roland Deschain]

Why am I being warned for sincerely stating my opinions? Which poster (or moderator) have I personally insulted. I'm especially surprised that you seem to have a problem with my second post about "signs that your SO is cheating" since I started that one to ask the question and not include TMI. It would help if the warnings were a bit more specific rather than just saying that I was conducting a train wreck.

By the way if I get banned can I pay another fee for a new account?

[FinnAgain]

By the way if I get banned can I pay another fee for a new account?

"So if my behavior is so bad that you kick me off the board, can I get a sock puppet to do it again?"

You really should look into posting just a smidge less than you're thinking. Just a suggestion.

[Hunter Hawk]

SDMB registration agreement (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294563)

Roland, you should have read this before you registered.

[Roland Deschain]

I did read the agreement before I registered at least in a cursory sense. I guess I'm just trying to figure out how exactly what I can, and cannot say in order to avoid getting banned. For example, I'm not sure what inspired this latest and most severe warning. If anything the "intensity" of this thread peaked some time ago. I was trying to respond to someone who admitted that they had not read the entire thread and who seemed to have some things wrong about why the thread was posted (which was primarily to protest the tone of a teacher who I thought was being too harsh on his cheating Comp. Sci students).

Again, I'm looking for some clear guidelines so that I can still ask the questions that I wish answered without serious risk of getting banned. If I get banned is there a time limit after which I can reapply? Does the ban also apply to others in my household such as my wife and mother in law? My wife for example intends to use this site to help her with information on possible ways to convert toxic "coal ash" into useful or at least less toxic substances (for her Geology class).

[Siege]

You've already admitted you have no problem with cheating to achieve what you want. You've also repeatedly and irrepentently broken the main rule of this message board, "Don't be a jerk." Why on earth should anyone around here believe you or anyone who purports to be from your household? Why on earth would we want you back?

My religious beliefs require me to treat people with respect, not respect them. It takes a lot for me to respect a person, including evidence that he or she is honorable and compassionate. By your willingness to cheat and the way you've posted here, including things you've posted despite your wife's unwilllingness, you've shown to me that you have neither honor nor compassion. I've been an individualist for over 30 years now and I've known and liked and respected a great many of them. While you may hold individual opinions, you strike me as more of a jerk than an individualist.

This message board is an individualist's paradise. We don't have appearance, sex, or race to judge you by; we don't know what groups you belong to or what your cultural background is when you first come here. All we have to judge you by, to form opinions of you by is what you say and how you say it. You, by your own choices and actions, formed the opinion people have of you here. I hope you've enjoyed the negative opinion people have formed of you, especially since you've deliberately ignored advice on how to change it. I know how good it felt to take wounded pride in how I was being deliberately abused simply for being different from everyone else. I was 15 at the time. I outgrew it, and I found other things were a lot more fun, even though I never gave up my non-conformity.

As I said earlier, if you don't like the way people are responding to you here, you do still have a chance to change it. If you don't want to, quit complaining. I have no respect for someone like you, anymore than I have respect for the young man who put getting high above the safety of others and, as a result, drove his car into a minivan holding a family of five. If you want respect, act in a way which merits it.

CJ