Are recovered memories real?

[Diceman]

OK, I realize that this will probably end up in Great Debates, but I'm hoping for some factual discussion.

This morning, I heard on the radio about this priest who was convicted of molesting a child years ago. Apparently, the conviction was based largely on recovered memories that surfaced years later. I want to know what the Straight Dope is on recovered memories.

I have no doubts that people sometimes repress traumatic memories. But can people accurately recover those memories years or decades later? By accurately, I mean reliably enough to be admissable as evidence in a court of law. What I've heard on this subject suggests that the recovered "memories" can be heavily influenced by the person's therapist, and if the therapist has an agenda of some sort, what the victim recalls can be almost completely fictional. It seems to me that if there's a distinct possibility that the memories could be distorted, then this sort of evidence should be disallowed.

Is there any consensus on this subject?

[Oy!]

According to The Skeptics Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/repressedmemory.html), there is very good reason to question the validity.

It is common to consciously repress unpleasant experiences. Many psychologists believe that unconscious repression of traumatic experiences such as sexual abuse or rape is a defense mechanism which backfires. The unpleasant experience is forgotten but not forgiven. It lurks beneath consciousness and allegedly causes a myriad of psychological and physical problems from bulimia to insomnia to suicide.

The theory of unconsciously repressing the memory of traumatic experiences is controversial. There is little scientific evidence to support either the notion that traumatic experiences are typically unconsciously repressed or that unconscious memories of traumatic events are significant causal factors in physical or mental illness. Most people do not forget traumatic experiences unless they are rendered unconscious at the time of the experience. No one has identified a single case where a specific traumatic experience in childhood was repressed and the repressed memory of the event, rather than the event itself, caused a specific psychiatric or physical disorder in adulthood.


The report I heard last night suggested that there had been so many people in the Boston area claiming to be the victims of this particular priest, and so much publicity, that the evidence presented in court didn't have to be especially solid.

God, I hate cases based on so-called repressed memories! It could be anything from the absolute truth to a con-man looking to collect a cool half million in damages, with a good chance of a well-meaning therapist creating a new victim by encouraging the formation of 'memories' that in fact don't exist. There's no knowing, especially when it comes to anything to do with child molestation, about which Americans have gone absolutely nuts.

As to the actual guilt or innocence in this particular case, I haven't the vaguest idea. But I am always suspicious of 'repressed memory' cases.

[Mangetout]

Well, I'm not an expert, but the fact that the same sort of techniques are used to 'recover' memories of past lives (i.e. reincarnation), added to the fact that there are any number of different individuals who all honestly recollect their own past life as, say, Marie Antoinette or Cleopatra (i.e. more than one person claims to have been the same historical individual), sort of raises doubts in my mind.

[Cartooniverse]

There's no knowing, especially when it comes to anything to do with child molestation, about which Americans have gone absolutely nuts..

I'm not sure that kind of inflammatory accusatory statement sits well in G.Q. If you feel the need to tell Dopers that Americans have "gone nuts" over child molestations, perhaps you might wish to move that to the Pit? Just a thought, from a Doper who- like a hell of a lot of other Dopers- either has friends and/or family who have substantiated child abuse or have experienced it themselves firsthand.

Americans " went nuts " over Cabbage Patch Kids. People "experience" abuse. Critical difference, my friend.

A very close friend had her life turned upside down by repressed memories, about 13 years ago. She's 46 now.

Cartooniverse

[jester21]

at the risk of inflaming other's opinion of supposed inflammatory remarks...

I think i know what Oy meant...

While i will not trivialize the effects of "repressed memories" that resurface later in life... i think the point was: "how do you know they are really real?"

I've seen recent topics here relating to mental illnesses (likely inspired by threads regarding the outrage over the Crazy for You Bear (which i was the first to report, cuz i thought it was really cute... but not at $70... anyway)) .... and many have stated that the people who suffer from these illnesses often can't TRUELY discern reality from the effects of the illness.

That said: who's to say that repressed memories are NOT a form of mental illness? Perhaps created by a traumatic event, (though someone earlier stated that there is no scientific evidence of this) but possibly not.

And as has been proven MANY times over, memory of even RECENT events is largely unreliable. Details are usually lost over time. Nightmares are similar to memories. And Nightmares, while quite possibly very vivid, are hardly indicitive of accuracy of past occurances.

So my point is, in relation to the OP, is there any proof that repressed memories are REALLY real?

That this particular Q was inspired by a sex offence case, isn't really relevant, but it's a trigger issue for a lot of peeps on here and many would seem to give credence to an otherwise shakey topic/theory for no other reason than to "beat the war drums"... so to speak...

I for one, am dubious of repressed memories. But i'm hardly an expert and it's solely my opinion.

[RevCo]

Well, I'm not an expert, but the fact that the same sort of techniques are used to 'recover' memories of past lives (i.e. reincarnation), added to the fact that there are any number of different individuals who all honestly recollect their own past life as, say, Marie Antoinette or Cleopatra (i.e. more than one person claims to have been the same historical individual), sort of raises doubts in my mind.
I feel the same way about repressed memories: My brother and I reminisce about events when we were kids so much I don't remember if I was there or not - honestly. Maybe when something happened either I was there, or I pictured how it was based on what he told me, and now our stories of the events match and now I'm not certain if either of us were there ;)

This is why almost all crimes have a statute of limitations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations), except in certain conditions. I think the gist is that there is a future discovery of harm that people/lawyers go after. "My life was meaningless, and I never knew why..." Now they discovered something happened 20 years ago, and can seek compensation.

I don't think anyone is making light of molestation. Just questioning the validity of repressed memories. I personally don't agree with it because it's impossible to find an impartial jury in the case of child molestation (which it appears most repressed memories center around), and those 20 years is a freaking long time.

[Anaamika]

There's no knowing, especially when it comes to anything to do with child molestation, about which Americans have gone absolutely nuts.

.

Uh...I've got a problem with this statement, too. Here we are, trying to get these things out in the open, so they don't happen, and you call it a mere case of "going nuts" as though we were obsessing over the latest fad? It's about time this stuff came out in the open. Incest and child rape is a huge problem from what I can tell & well-hidden in this supposedly progressive country.

I am sorely tempted to use the rolleyes but I will refrain.

[astro]

Scientifically, true "recovered memories" are mostly regarded as abject nonsense concocted by people on their own or with the help of a therapist "guiding" them.

In the height of the recovered memory craze in the 80's and 90's there were many families and realtionships destroyed by bogus accusations that the victim believed in 100% because the therapist told them they were true.

Aside from the human tragedies involved, it is an excellent demonstration of how plastic the nature of belief and reality are. The facile nonsense of the "if it's true for you it's true" perspective came to a head in this debacle.

People can often compartmentalize unpleasant things on a day to consciousness level just to get on with life, but they don't generally "forget" in the sense that the memory is no longer accessible.

[Squink]

It's easy to plant false memories: (http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030217woods0217p5.asp) Loftus described planting false memories in more than 20,000 research volunteers. They included recollections of accidents, leisure time activities, childhood trauma and other events that never occurred.

More than a third of subjects in the study recalled being hugged by Bugs Bunny at Disneyland-- impossible because Bugs is not a Disney character -- after a researcher planted the false memory.
More on Creating False Memories (http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm).

[BrotherCadfael]

Maybe they are real, maybe they are not. I don't have enough knowlege of the subject to be sure.

BUT, it does seem clear that recovered memories alone, without any corroberating evidence, comes nowhere NEAR the standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" required for a criminal conviction.

[World Eater]

Recovered memories, and in fact memories in general can be highly inaccurate. There are several processes that are capable of corrupting our reccollections of events, their specific terms currently eluding me. The two off the top of my head are source amnesia which involves the addition of new memories into the original event. For example when you describe your 10th birthday party and unconsciously incorporate memories from your 12th into it. Memories of horrific events, contrary to popular belief, can be corrupted just as easily. Such Memories such as Pearl Harbor, 9/11, etc are referred to as "flashbulb" memories. Most people swear they'll never forget, or the images will be seared into their minds forever but this is hardly the case. A study conducted right after 9/11 and recently followed up on, found something like 35% of people told a totally different story of where they were and what they were doing when it was happening.

Finally the process of recalling the memories is suspect as well. Leading questions can be used to to help influence a response from a person.

"Where were you when the car slammed into you"

vs.

"Where were you when the car bumped into you?"

[Diceman]

Well, I'm not an expert, but the fact that the same sort of techniques are used to 'recover' memories of past lives (i.e. reincarnation), added to the fact that there are any number of different individuals who all honestly recollect their own past life as, say, Marie Antoinette or Cleopatra (i.e. more than one person claims to have been the same historical individual), sort of raises doubts in my mind.
You know, I almost made a comment like "This whole business with repressed memories sounds like a modern-day version of past life regression." I didn't say it because I was afraid of poisoning my own thread, but I'm glad to see that someone else has had the same idea. I have an active imagination, and I have a couple of "memories" which I'm not sure are real. For example, when I was really young (like 6 or 8) my older brother and I decided to pee into the heat vent in our room (God only knows why -- one of those things that kids do, I guess). Our parents caught us doing this and spanked us. My parents deny that this incident ever happened, and so does my brother. No one but myself seems to remember it, so I have to wonder if it was really just a dream or something. It certainly could be a dream; I had some very vivid dreams when I was a kid, including a few that I still remember today, but most of them were obvious fantasies involving car chases and freeways that bank and loop around like Hot Wheels tracks.

(Plus, if I really did get spanked for pissing into the heat vent, I've got to admit that I deserved it :wally )

[World Eater]

You know, I almost made a comment like "This whole business with repressed memories sounds like a modern-day version of past life regression." I didn't say it because I was afraid of poisoning my own thread, but I'm glad to see that someone else has had the same idea. I have an active imagination, and I have a couple of "memories" which I'm not sure are real. For example, when I was really young (like 6 or 8) my older brother and I decided to pee into the heat vent in our room (God only knows why -- one of those things that kids do, I guess). Our parents caught us doing this and spanked us. My parents deny that this incident ever happened, and so does my brother. No one but myself seems to remember it, so I have to wonder if it was really just a dream or something. It certainly could be a dream; I had some very vivid dreams when I was a kid, including a few that I still remember today, but most of them were obvious fantasies involving car chases and freeways that bank and loop around like Hot Wheels tracks.

(Plus, if I really did get spanked for pissing into the heat vent, I've got to admit that I deserved it :wally )

Memory corruption generally occur in two ways, internally influenced and externally influenced. I can't recall its name, but there is a process where your memories can actually be those of someone else. If you had always wanted to go to Great Adventure, and a friend went and came back and described it to you in super detail, you may eventually "remember" going to great adventure when you were 14 years old.

[smiling bandit]

I sometimes remeber myself from outside my own body, observing what I was doing at the time. Tell me that's not a wierd way to remember!

[Musicat]

Memory is not a perfect, exact recording of events as they happen.

The human mind is not analagous to a video or audio recorder. Memory is not only imperfect at perceiving an event, but can be (and usually is) modified and distorted over time. And the holder of the memory is rarely aware of this phenomena.

So even if an event can be recalled, it may not be a valid memory.

Then add to that the distortions and outright stories implanted by recovered memory "facilitators". Such psychological sessions are rarely recorded on video, but the assistants are often caught suggesting to subjects in highly-suggestable states, and these suggestions frequently become incorporated into the subject's memory bank, later to be treated as original and true. This fraudulent technique has been used to recover (read: create) satanic stories and alien abductions.

For more on this topic, check out books and articles by Elizabeth Loftus, who has contributed much to our understanding of the human mind.

[CurtC]

Americans " went nuts " over Cabbage Patch Kids. People "experience" abuse. Critical difference, my friend. I certainly don't want to belittle your friends' suffering, but I agree that Americans have gone nuts over child sexual abuse. Especially, abuse at the hands of strangers, while largely ignoring the much more prevalent familial abuse. It's to the point that people won't let their nine year old kids wander around the neighborhood, so instead they park in front of the TV running their Game Cubes and scarfing down fried snack foods all afternoon, becoming giant tubs of lard and ruining their health, in order to avoid the very rare case of an abusive stranger.

My oldest is eight, and he's just about ready to be let loose on his own to go visit his friends, play in the woods, etc. I figure there is a small but non-zero chance of something really bad happening to him, but the alternative is to give him a 100% chance of something fairly bad happening to him.

[The Tim]

Confabulation is the term that cognitive psychologists apply to the process. In the view of main stream cognitive psychologists memory involves the responsiveness of clusters of neurons to one another. Recalling something involves getting these self-supporting circuits to activate enough to drive the neurological activity of the brain. Since neurons that are active at the same time become more responsive to one another recalling something strengthens the memory. False memories have the content and emotional context repeated over and over again. The consequence is a flurry of activity that sets things up so that when you activate the right neurons (by mentioning the incident, for example) the rest of the neurons fire and the person feels the emotions of the event and starts digging up the details of it as well. This will reinforce the memory further.

In many ways there is no difference between the mechanisms of recall and imagination. It is only explicit designation and context that keeps the two seperate. I'm sure most people know somebody who can convince himself of anything. These sorts don't keep the difference between imagined and recall strict for themselves.

[World Eater]

Confabulation is the term that cognitive psychologists apply to the process.

That's the term I couldn't remember.


Recalling something involves getting these self-supporting circuits to activate enough to drive the neurological activity of the brain. Since neurons that are active at the same time become more responsive to one another recalling something strengthens the memory.[/QUOTE]

"What fires together, wires together"

[World Eater]

Ugh, I forgot how to post.

Recalling something involves getting these self-supporting circuits to activate enough to drive the neurological activity of the brain. Since neurons that are active at the same time become more responsive to one another recalling something strengthens the memory.

Reminds me of a quote.

"What fires together, wires together"

[The Tim]

Ugh, I forgot how to post.



Reminds me of a quote.

"What fires together, wires together"

Yup, that's the mantra. I figured it wasn't informative by itself.

[The Tim]

Ugh, I forgot how to post.



Reminds me of a quote.

"What fires together, wires together"

Yup, that's the mantra. I figured it wasn't informative by itself.

[ouryL]

Considering the number of people who recover memories of being kidnapped by aliens (Barney Hill incident), its no wonder why my psychiatrists distrust the notion of recovered memory.

[Eats_Crayons]

In many ways there is no difference between the mechanisms of recall and imagination. It is only explicit designation and context that keeps the two seperate. I'm sure most people know somebody who can convince himself of anything. These sorts don't keep the difference between imagined and recall strict for themselves.An acquaintance of mine (a talented painter who did vibrant quirky canvases) saw an unlicensed "therapist" who specialized in "recovered memories" and who had no medical background. She "remembered" early childhood sexual abuse and became extremely tormented. She also was terrified of leaving her daughter behind to possibly fall into the hands of her abusers as they would likely get custody. So it was a murder suicide. At the age of 26, Jackie hanged herself and her two-year-old daughter in her kitchen with boot laces.

She had never been abused, the memories were false. Some of the "memories" were, in fact, impossible as they would have had to take place in the total absence of one of the accused.

This resulted in a lawsuit - Jackie's mother was awarded $6,000. Her mother has since become an activist fighting against "false memory syndrome".

As a result of some of the controversy surrounding Jackie's case and others, the Canadia Psychiatrics Association had to release a position statement which includes:* Reports of recovered memories of sexual abuse may be true, but great caution should be exercised before acceptance in the absence of solid corroboration. Psychiatrists should be aware that excessive emphasis on recovering memories may lead to misdirection of the treatment process and unduly delay appropriate therapeutic measures.

* Routine inquiry into past and present experience of all types of abuse should remain a regular part of psychiatric assessment. Psychiatrists should take particular care, however, to avoid inappropriate use of leading questions, hypnosis, narcoanalysis, or other memory enhancement techniques directed at the production of hypothesized hidden or lost material. This does not preclude traditional supportive psychotherapeutic techniques, based on strengthening coping mechanisms, cognitive psychotherapy, behaviour therapy, or neutrally managed exploratory psychodynamic or psychoanalytic treatment. Since there are no well-defined symptoms or groups of symptoms that are specific to any type of abuse, symptoms that are said to be typical should not be used as evidence thereof.

* Reports of recovered memories that incriminate others should be handled with particular care. In clinical practice, an ethical psychiatrist should refrain from taking any side with respect to their use in accusations directed against the family or friends of the patient or against any third party.

I'd recommend reading some of the transcripts of psychiatrist Dr Harold Merskey's comments to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. You'll have to scroll down a little (http://www.ontla.on.ca/hansard/committee_debates/38_parl/session1/GenGov/G007.htm#P203_43294) to his comments.

Note: As may be deduced, I have quite a bias on this subject, so please take that into account with respect to getting a factual answer to the OP.

[Eats_Crayons]

...the Canadia Psychiatrics Association had to release a position statement which includes::smack: Nice typing. That was supposed to be "Canadian Psychiatrists Association".

[pinkfreud]

Many years ago, when I was in my teens, I was send to a psychiatrist who apparently believed that all troubled teenagers had been sexually molested. For many months he dug and prowled and rummaged through my dreams and my testimony about my family life. Failing to find any evidence of molestation, this shrink decided that I had repressed it, and he began a program of what I can only describe as brainwashing. If I couldn't remember the abuse, he would "help" me remember it.

Needless to say, I was much worse off after this "therapy." Although my family life had been a nightmare in many ways, sexual abuse was not one of those ways, and for a psychotherapist to convince me that it had been didn't make things any better.

Four decades later, I'm pretty much okay in the head now, other than having a lifelong mistrust of psychotherapists.

[The Tim]

Eats_Crayons and pinkfreud I am sorry to hear about your experiences with recovered memory therapy. In many ways ignorant and unlicensed therapists are like doctors before the rational study of anatomy and biology. They may mean well but they are inserting themselves into a machine while it is operating and they have little, if any, understanding of that machine's construction or operations beyond what they can see. Without grinding any of my axes about the field all I can say is there is a disconcerting lag between solid discovery and it becoming commonly known, and a corresponding lag between potentially dangerous practices and experiments to address the issue before that potential is realized.

When I said that imagining and remember are the same I meant that the neurological underpinnings are similar, so similar that it is only a matter of explicit awareness of the fictitious nature of imagined events that allows them to be recalled as such. Strip the context of imagining away or present things as fact from the outset and a false memory appears. When I mentioned individuals that seem able to convince themselves of things I meant those who make up stories and seem to remember them as facts. I was providing an illustration of the effect that is not as dramatic and terrible as "recovered" memories, but an annoying quality of character that most people would be familiar with. The effect happens to everybody to an extent, but some are prone to confabulating memories without another person guiding them.

[BurnMeUp]

WHile I do believe some people have been abused and have blocked it from their memory, I also must say that I have read quite a few cases on the "Satanic Panic" epidemic that struck the country in the 80's/90's. A lot of "therapists" had investigated children based on some other issues and began diugging up repressed memories that these children had been sexually assaulted at their pre-schools and churches by vast secret satanic cults.

Two interesting and well-written books on this are :
Satanic Panic: The Creation of a Contemporary Legend by Jeffrey S. Victor
Satan's Silence: Ritual Abuse and the Making of a Modern American Witch Hunt by Debbie Nathan, Michael Snedeker

[Musicat]

Many years ago, when I was in my teens, I was send to a psychiatrist who apparently believed that all troubled teenagers had been sexually molested...Which reminds me of the expression, "You have to believe it to see it." Beginning with a preconceived notion is not the way to conduct a fair investigation.

BurnMeUp, I concur with your book selection. I have read the Victor book and it is good. Two more good books, although slanted more towards children's memory than adults, are:

The Abuse of Innocence, The McMartin Preschool Trial (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758090/qid=1107977539/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6047712-9723105?v=glance&s=books), by Paul & Shirley Eberle

Jeopardy in the Courtroom, a Scientific Analysis of Children's Testimony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557986320/qid=1107977580/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-6047712-9723105), by Stephen J. Ceci and Maggie Bruck

...and here's a book by Elizabeth Loftus that covers the OP perfectly: The Myth of Repressed Memory: False Memories and Allegations of Sexual Abuse (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312141238/ref=pd_sim_b_4/104-6047712-9723105?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)