Man committed to mental hospital for being fat

[ivylass]

Link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005082504,00.html).

Any UK Dopers have any insight on this one? Just where the hell do the authorities get off??

[Barbarian]

That may not be a worksafe link to The Sun, since there are thumbnails of page 3 models on that page...

[owlstretchingtime]

To get "sectioned" ie committed two doctors and a specialist social worker have to sign a form that states the person is a danger to self or others or requires medical treatment to prevent serious harm.

The pressure on mental health beds in the NHS is so acute that they don't admit people unless they are really sick (wander around any UK town and you will see no end of people who need treatment but have been discharged owing to lack of beds. You will also see plenty of fatties) .

In short I suspect tha there is more to this than the Sun (not a reliable news source BTW) is letting on.

Mind you he is a fat knacker.

Owl - no sylph himself.

[astro]

It's an interesting question. Having been quite substantially fat, and not, in my life I wouldn't want to be dragged off to an institution, but in this case this guy is into a level of obesity that will likely end his life before too long.

He has a real and deadly psychological problem, and I really, really, doubt loving mom is going to be able to do much to help him. We see the stories about 600-1200 lb people pulled dying or dead out of bedrooms, swimming in their own waste and encrusted (literally) to couches and sheets and wonder "How the hell did this happen?"

Unless you're 8 feet tall once you start pushing past 500-600 lbs there a very serious psychological problem involved, and it's time people acknowledged it as a pathology, not a valid lifestyle choice. The issue is obviously what the trigger points for intervention are, or should be. It's a slippery slope lubricated with olive oil and butterfat, but I think there should be enforced counseling of some sort for people like this once you get inot the uber morbid levels of obesity.

The difficult thing is that even super morbid obesity really is a compartmentalized disease. Even when I was lumberingly overweight I was a (mostly) perfectly rational actor in all areas but food consumption. If someone had packed me off to an isntituation for being (mumble) lbs overweight I would have been appalled, but once you're rounding the 300 + lbs overweight area IMO you need help, even if it's coercive.

[Ponder Stibbons]

... I suspect tha there is more to this than the Sun (not a reliable news source BTW) is letting on.
My suspicion is: Political pressure due to publicity. In other words, if the poor lout hadn't been the subject of a documentary, the lock-up would never have happened.

[astro]

"The difficult thing is that even super morbid obesity really is a compartmentalized disease. Even when I was lumberingly overweight I was a (mostly) perfectly rational actor in all areas but food consumption. If someone had packed me off to an isntituation for being (mumble) lbs overweight I would have been appalled, but once you're rounding the 300 + lbs overweight area IMO you need help, even if it's coercive."

300 lbs [over] your normal bodyweight, not 300 + lbs bodyweight.

"isntituation" = institution

[ivylass]

That may not be a worksafe link to The Sun, since there are thumbnails of page 3 models on that page...

I didn't even notice that!

Be warned, folks. They're tiny, but they're there.

[ivylass]

With all due respect, who is he hurting but himself? Short of falling on someone, of course. I can't see the right any gov't has to tell us how we can treat our own bodies.

[owlstretchingtime]

There's also the question of why he is zeppelin-sized. he may well be suffering from depression or some other malady that makes him seek refuge in cakes. It maybe that which is the reason for the sectioning.

In any case - if he feels he is in the wrong place he can appeal to the Mental Health Tribunal who will look at the case (they're independent).

He surely can't be happy in any case.

[owlstretchingtime]

With all due respect, who is he hurting but himself? Short of falling on someone, of course. I can't see the right any gov't has to tell us how we can treat our own bodies.

It's a form of self harm and people are sectioned for that all the time.

[little*bit]

There's also the question of why he is zeppelin-sized. he may well be suffering from depression or some other malady that makes him seek refuge in cakes. It maybe that which is the reason for the sectioning.
QUOTE]

Actually, according to the article...
[QUOTE]Chris, of Hastings, East Sussex, suffers from an incurable condition called Prader-Willi Syndrome. It means he can’t tell when his stomach is full and could eat so much that it will kill him.

Sounds like a medical condition, more than a mental one.

[Marley23]

With all due respect, who is he hurting but himself? Short of falling on someone, of course. I can't see the right any gov't has to tell us how we can treat our own bodies.
The government does that in plenty of circumstances. I would say a great many mental illnesses don't affect other people, but a person can still be a danger to himself and need treatment as a result.

[ivylass]

But it sounds like he has a brain chemical imbalance, not a mental illness. Since when does the UK involuntarily commit someone for a physical ailment? Isn't that like committing someone who has refused conventional treatment for cancer and is seeking hololistic cures?

[Hal Briston]

Just where the hell do the authorities get off??
...followed by:
That may not be a worksafe link to The Sun, since there are thumbnails of page 3 models on that page
Two posts that fit together almost poetically.

[glee]

The Sun is not a reliable newspaper (think National Enquirer...)

[MsRobyn]

But it sounds like he has a brain chemical imbalance, not a mental illness. Since when does the UK involuntarily commit someone for a physical ailment? Isn't that like committing someone who has refused conventional treatment for cancer and is seeking hololistic cures?

Because, according to a very one-sided article, it's Chris and Chris's mother who claim that he has this disorder. There was no mention of any independent diagnosis.

For all we know, he could just be any obese person who claims their excess weight on a non-existent physical ailment.

Robin

[biddee]

Prader-willi syndrome is a genetic disorder characterized by short stature, mental retardation etc etc. Linkety link (http://www.thearc.org/faqs/pwsynd.html) ...that boy doesn't look short and doesn't appear mentally retarded to me!

[irishgirl]

Prader-Willi is not something that is daignosed on a whim. It requires karyotyping, so if he has it, he HAS it.

It's not about eating too much food. It's about eating anything that's not nailed down. Children with Prader-Willi have eaten their pet goldfish for example. Parents are told to do a daily shop and padlock cupboards and fridges.

If the authorities don't think he and his mother are able to restrict his food intake to that kind of level, they may have made a sensible decision.

[ivylass]

The Sun is not a reliable newspaper (think National Enquirer...)

I did not know that. What are considered the reliable papers over there?

[ivylass]

Because, according to a very one-sided article, it's Chris and Chris's mother who claim that he has this disorder. There was no mention of any independent diagnosis.

For all we know, he could just be any obese person who claims their excess weight on a non-existent physical ailment.

Robin

Then, in that case, they have a right to commit people based on a lack of willpower?



(I know that's not all there is to obesity. But if there's nothing physically or mentally wrong with him, is it right to involuntarily commit him just because he's overweight?)

[SusanStoHelit]

But it sounds like he has a brain chemical imbalance, not a mental illness. Since when does the UK involuntarily commit someone for a physical ailment? Isn't that like committing someone who has refused conventional treatment for cancer and is seeking hololistic cures?

We already know that many mental illnesses are chemical imbalances (depression, anyone?) and we put people away for them if the case is severe enough. I suspect that we will soon find that nearly every mental disorder has some [neurotranmitter] or receptor component.

[JohnBckWLD]

[Martin Niemölle]
First they came after the donut eaters, but I avoid Krispy Kream, so I said nothing. Then they came for the fast food junkies, but I don't eat at McDonalds, so I did nothing. Then when they came for the beer drinkers, and I told em to back the fuck off.
[/Martin Niemölle]

[Zebra]

With all due respect, who is he hurting but himself? Short of falling on someone, of course. I can't see the right any gov't has to tell us how we can treat our own bodies.


To get "sectioned" ie committed two doctors and a specialist social worker have to sign a form that states the person is a danger to self or others or requires medical treatment to prevent serious harm.


(emphasis mine)

If a person's course is going to kill him, then you try to stop them. With the holistic healing, the cancer is going to kill them, not the diluted extract of fairy sweat. You could say, not getting 'real' treatment is what is going to kill but since a doctor would say something like the real treatment only has X% chance of working, then the treatment can't be seen as the absoulte course.

Now I do see your point. That the State is not our parent. That people should be able to do what they want and live their lives the way they want. But this guy probably isn't living his life the way he really wants.

[Tenar]

I am absolutely RABID about any attempt to control me. Nonetheless, if involuntary commitment were likely to free me from my morbid obesity, I would kiss the hand of the person that approved it.

[Broomstick]

IF he has Prader-Willi then yes, he is in danger of eating himself to death. It is a genetic defect that causes insaitiable hunger and adds the extra insult of a slower-than-normal metabolism. The only treatment is behavioral training and padlocks on food storage.

While it normally also causes mental retardation we're not talking drooling-in-a-corner idiocy here, nor are we talking freakish shortness. The effects vary somewhat from person to person, and if the person with the disorder is in a supportive environment they may not look retarded in the stereotypical sense, can carry on coherent conversations, and so forth. It's really hard to bring them down to a normal weight, but they needn't be "zepplin sized", as another poster put it. Granted, this is mostly based from seeing actual, diagnosed Prader-Willi sufferers on morning talk shows, but hey, they were chubby-to-fat, not grotesque, and seemed to communicate adequately for their age groups in normal conversation that didn't touch on super intellectual matters.

Do I think he has Prader-Willi? Damifino. No way to tell from that article. Could very likely be some other dysfunctional situation. In fact, it's more likely. But if he and his mother are claiming Prader-Willi then they can simply test for it and settle the matter for good. In which case you have some other hokey-pokey going on.

Clearly, the article is not the WHOLE story.

[badmana]

With all due respect, who is he hurting but himself? Short of falling on someone, of course. I can't see the right any gov't has to tell us how we can treat our own bodies.


Keep also in mind the UK has universal medical care. I don't really care what people do with themselves but when it costs me money, it's my business.

Like seat belts and helmets. People will bitch about "it's my body let me do whatever" but that's hardly right in places like Canada or Britian where we pay for dumb mistakes.

[glee]

I did not know that. What are considered the reliable papers over there?

From right-wing to left:

The Telegraph
Financial Times (obviously specialist)
The Times
The Independent
The Guardian

Daily Mail + Daily Express are OK, though you won't find any depth to their stories.

'National Enquirer' leanings:

Sun
Mirror

Bonkers:

Sport

[MsRobyn]

Then, in that case, they have a right to commit people based on a lack of willpower?



(I know that's not all there is to obesity. But if there's nothing physically or mentally wrong with him, is it right to involuntarily commit him just because he's overweight?)

But we don't know there's nothing wrong with him. All we have is one one-sided article that paints a very sympathetic portrait. The Sun article also didn't go into detail on the documentary. For all we (and other Sun readers) know, he confessed to other self-destructive behavior. Maybe he admitted that he steals food. But we don't know these things for sure.

So, let's withhold judgment until all the facts are in.

Robin

[astro]

So, let's withhold judgment until all the facts are in.

Robin


The facts are in! He's the Frito Bandito.

[Larry Mudd]

He's sueing social services (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/southern_counties/4287377.stm), according to the BBC.

[Enola Straight]

Maybe we should also lock up heavy smokers and problem drinkers.

[Zsofia]

Well, er, I know this is the Sun and all, but it couldn't hurt to remove him from the table full of confections in that second picture. Just sayin'.

[yBeayf]

IF he has Prader-Willi then yes, he is in danger of eating himself to death. It is a genetic defect that causes insaitiable hunger and adds the extra insult of a slower-than-normal metabolism. The only treatment is behavioral training and padlocks on food storage.
This bears repeating. I see no reason to doubt that he has Prader-Willi, in which case he will *never* feel full, and will literally eat until he dies, which he will very likely do if his caretakers don't limit his access to food. If his family isn't keeping food from him, then this situation is no different than the state committing a psychotic schizophrenic who is compulsively injuring himself, and who is not receiving adequate care from his caretakers.

[owlstretchingtime]

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious.....

Here is a list of people who think he's physically ill: Him. His Mum.

Here is a list of people who think he is in serious need of psychiatric help:

Two doctors. A specialist mental health worker. The registrar at the hospital and the clinical team that are treating him.

I'm sure his mum's a lovely woman - but I'll take the word of the other lot first.

[irishgirl]

In Prader-Willi (which is an abnormality of an area on chromosome 15) there is a chemical imbalance. It's a deficiency of Leptin, the hormone which controls feelings of satiety and hunger. Unfortunately we don't have a way to treat that deficiency. Sufferers are ravenously hungry, all the time. Even after eating amounts of food that would have a normal person throwing up, they will still want more.

It's not poor self-control, it's NO control. Most of them don't lead independent lives, not because they're too intellectually disabled, but because someone has to constantly monitor their access to food.

The learning disability can range from moderate to mild, most people would have an IQ between 60 and 90, but may have specific learning disabilities in areas of abstract though, reading, writing or number skills.

If he wasn't sticking to his extremely low calorie diet, and was being aided in this by his carers, I don't really see what other option the state had. As an adult they can't take him into care, and if he's intellectually not very disabled he is probably considered competant to make his own medical decisions.

He was probably taken in under the 48hour section for assessment, in order to determine whether he is in fact competant, and whether he will be able to continue his diet in his current situation. If he refused to come in voluntarily, or his doctors believed he would refuse if asked, then the section was justifiable, as it was acting in his best interests.

[irishgirl]

On a side note, owlstretchingtime, I'm not sure of you're aware of this, but "knacker" is a term of racist abuse applied to the Irish travelling community.

Best not to use it.

[owlstretchingtime]

On a side note, owlstretchingtime, I'm not sure of you're aware of this, but "knacker" is a term of racist abuse applied to the Irish travelling community.

Best not to use it.

It just means "man" (or bollock) this side of the Irish sea. (we have other terms for Travellers, but "knacker" isn't one of them.)

[TwistofFate]

The Sun article is a classic example of appealing to it's demographic as well as following Rupert Mrudoch's crusade against Labour.

It will simultaniously appeal to the White Van Man readership who can snigger at the attitude and go "Look at fattie!!" while at the same time go "Government is getting out of control! It's all Labour's fault!"


This isn't comparible to smoking and drinkers. It's easier (but by no means easy) to attempt to quit smoking or drinking, but you can't quit Prader Willi syndrome.

[owlstretchingtime]

The Sun article is a classic example of appealing to it's demographic as well as following Rupert Mrudoch's crusade against Labour.

It will simultaniously appeal to the White Van Man readership who can snigger at the attitude and go "Look at fattie!!" while at the same time go "Government is getting out of control! It's all Labour's fault!"


.

Sound like you're a bit out of touch with the sun here - It's a stauchly labour (specifically "new" labour) supporting paper these days and has been for a while.

In any case it's hard enough to get someone who WANTS to go into a psychiatric hospital a bed - so I'd be amazed if there wasn't more to this than him just being vast.

[BadBadger]

IIRC (The Times) Social Services have been working with this family for three years and this is the last resort. They've called on powers normally reserved to "detain mentally ill people who might harm themselves or others". The family reckon he was taken without warning but the services respond "Close relatives are consulted before the application is made..."


IMO - get him into a controlled environment and see what you can do to help. He has potential to eat so much he drops dead. Oh, and why am I not surprised he's going to sue..? Thats rhetorical btw.

His names Leppard which reminds me of a seal, although a different species of seal.

[Sir Doris]

I did watch the documentary, a few weeks back. He entered supported accomodation and had his own personal support worker. However, said worker had no power to control his diet. He was shown taking the guy shopping, giving him advice on healthy eating, which was largely rejected. The impression given by the documentary was that he spent his time wandering from one greasy spoon to the next. He put on weight, and eventually moved home.

The other subjects of the documentary were both children, who parents had to seek out residential programmes to try and get some sort of control.

I guess the implicit point was it's hard enough to control their behaviour as children, but as adults we can't, so the future looks very bleak.

I knew a guy with PWS, who would eat food out of bins if he didn't have access to food at home. If his mother tried to restrict the his money, he'd shoplift. Incidentally, his brother, not a sufferer, was fatter.

There's a limit to what can be done short of putting PWS sufferers into a highly restricted environment. Adults can make that decision on behalf of their kids, but an adult can do what they like, unless they are sectioned.

[AngelicGemma]

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious.....

Here is a list of people who think he's physically ill: Him. His Mum.

Here is a list of people who think he is in serious need of psychiatric help:

Two doctors. A specialist mental health worker. The registrar at the hospital and the clinical team that are treating him.

I'm sure his mum's a lovely woman - but I'll take the word of the other lot first.

Me too. They don't section people unless the person is a risk to themselves and/or others. This guy was a danger to himself.

[AlbertHosteen]

There is also the question of 'dual diagnosis.' Having Prader-Willi syndrome doesn't preclude the possibility of him having other disorders; in fact it makes certain psychological conditions, such as depression, more likely. Also, he was admitted for evaluation, which can happen to anyone who refuses to allow him/herself to be evaluated whilenot committed.

I hope he sues, is funded by the Sun and Max Clifford, loses, is made liable for the NHS's costs, and bankrupts his funders.

[AngelicGemma]

I hope he sues, is funded by the Sun and Max Clifford, loses, is made liable for the NHS's costs, and bankrupts his funders.

But then what will the chav's read? :)

[WotNot]

But then what will the chav's read? :)

Same as now: txt mssgs

[irishgirl]

There's always the Star.

[owlstretchingtime]

But then what will the chav's read? :)

Are you not familiar with both Heat and Max Power?

[Zoe]

Tenar, you may have seen my other posts about my own weight loss and what has been successful for me for seven years now. I am literally half the person I used to be and it is a different life.

After I had tried everything else, I had a surgical bypass. When I began to regain very slowly, my doctor put me on a medication that inhibits compulsive behaviors. If you are a compulsive over-eater, I will be more than happy to share what I know about it.

I had no idea how much brain chemistry was affecting my relationship to food. In ignorance, I also assumed that it was a matter of will power -- or, at least, that "will power" had nothing to do with parts of the brain that were beyond my control and was just a matter of discipline. I was wrong.

If you want more information, please ask a mod to forward your email address to me. It will be a week or so before I reply.

[Guinastasia]

Wasn't there a big brou-ha ha a few years ago when a 13-year-old girl in California died due to complications from obesity-and she too had Prader-willis? Her mother was charged with neglect because the girl died living in her own filth (lying naked on the floor with feces and vomit caked into her skin, bedsores, etc). And some advocate groups for the disabled made a big stink about it?