Where's the best place to live if you're a freethinker?

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

I know America is great in some ways. Freedom of religion is in our Constitution (as interpreted by the Supreme Court), but at the same time, our national motto is "In God We Trust," and states are still allowed to outlaw everything from oral sex to selling liquor on Sunday. What with the influence of far-right religious zealots who want to enforce their religion on everyone through our government, and the pandering to these groups by our political candidates, I was wondering where I might want to move to get better treatment. Is America the best there is right now, or are there better options? (I suspect perhaps the Netherlands would be a good alternative, but have no first-hand knowledge nor any information on other countries' laws regarding freedom of and from religion.)

[manhattan]

I heard a rumor that there are some free-thinkers in Great Debates. Other's aren't exactly free, but hey, 2 cents is still a pretty good bargain.

Let's head over there and check it out.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Denmark?

[wolfman]

I was going to say Antarctica, but they actually have some of the most restrictive rules on what you can and can't do.

[oldscratch]

In the US? San Francisco. We accepted Emperor Norton, hell we even have some monuments to him. You can also feel free to dress however the hell you want and have people ignore you.

[Moirai]

My brother would vote for Amsterdam, but that's just him...

Why move out of the US and hassle with a work visa? Move to Boulder, CO. While I was there (94 - 97), it was very liberal & free-thinking. Of course, that's because it's a college town. It is surrounded by one of the more rabidly conservative states in the union.

[London_Calling]

I'd say in your late teens and early 20's - somewhere amongst all that hormonal imbalance. It's downhill to suburban thinking from there.

Otherwise as said, a good University town.

[Kyla]

I dunno, I went to university in Santa Cruz, California, which was definitely a university town. But you were only allowed to be a freethinker if you were a liberal freethinker. (Ah, Santa Cruz, the city that tried to outlaw hate.)

[yojimbo]

It might come as a surprize but Ireland is pretty progressive and protects most freedoms . The Netherlands would probably be the country that gives off the most progressive vibs . I'm not to sure of the actual laws but when you go there you can't help but be impressed with the whole thing . They seem to be the most sensible and pragmatic people I have had the pleasure of meeting .

[Dinsdale]

A friend recently was saying very nice things about Asheville, N.C., which surprised me (as well as apparently her very fundamentalist friend who recently relocated there.)

[Athena]

Originally posted by EJsGirl

Why move out of the US and hassle with a work visa? Move to Boulder, CO. While I was there (94 - 97), it was very liberal & free-thinking. Of course, that's because it's a college town. It is surrounded by one of the more rabidly conservative states in the union.



Uhhh... not true. I've lived in the Boulder area for about 10 years now, and although Boulder is VERY good at marketing itself as liberal and free-thinking, it's tremendously conservative at heart. The contradictions are amazing. A local journalist wrote an article about just this subject in the last few weeks. He picked the newest silly idea going around - changing the wording in all city documents to refer to "Pet Guardians" instead of "Pet Owners" - as an example.

Boulder wants to appear to be a pet-friendly town, so they want "Pet Guardians." Ok, great. Here's the realities of having a dog in Boulder. In the entire town of 100,000+, there's maybe 2 parks where you can let your dog off leash. There's at least a few parks that the dog is not allowed, period. They police the parks very well, and you will get a ticket if you attempt to break the park laws. The main outdoor shopping area, the Pearl Street Pedestrian Mall, bans dogs outright. You can't even have your well-behaved dog on leash while you stroll down the mall.

If you stop at a store (one NOT on the mall, mind you) and tie your dog up outside, you risk getting a ticket. A friend of mine once left her dogs in the back of her pickup, which was covered with a shell. She left the windows down so the dogs wouldn't get too hot. Some yahoo approached the dogs while she was shopping. The dogs started to bark furiously. He ignored them, and stuck his hand IN HER TRUCK to "pet" the dogs. One snapped at him - did not bite, did not physically touch him at all. He called the police & animal control, and she had to quarantine the dog for 2+ weeks and prove to the city her dogs were not harmful. All because some guy decided to stick his hand into her truck. But... she's a PET GUARDIAN!!!

Whoops... sorry to hijack this thread. This is but one example of Boulder's wanting to appear to be liberal but in actuality being very conservative. There's plenty of other examples involving gay people, cars vs. bikes, etc. etc. I wouldn't suggest moving to Boulder if you want truly open minds and free thinkers.

[tradesilicon]

AerynSun,
Interesting OP. I agree that it has become quite difficult to discuss many things in public in the US (at least in some places). You hit on one issue - there are some people who are very determined to make their way the "right" way. I happen to think that this is not limited to the "Religious Right", but on the contrary, is just as strong on the "Liberal Left", and in a few other places in between.

The US remains one of the best countries in the world for free thinkers, because you cannot be (by law) punished for thinking the wrong thoughts, and speaking the wrong words (as long as you do not threaten anyone, or advocate violence, etc.)

If you mean this country is too hung up pn certain things, I agree whole-heartedly. Drugs, Religion, Sex to name a few. But I think you are still allowed to have your opinions.

A few places in the world are less "hung up" about these things, like Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor mentioned, Denmak. But they may be more hung up about other things...

If you look at the US, I have to vote with Oldscratch - SF is the best. Whe have a bit of everything in this City, and we somehow get along.



Sili

[oldscratch]

And hey tradesillicon. With district elections coming up maybe some fellow thinkers of yours will get elected.

I still think the funniest thing about SF was the Republican party endorsing Willie Brown, the most villified man in California (by the GOP) for years, in the Mayorial election.

[tradesilicon]

Oldscratch, I'm not sure that any of my fellow thinkers are running for anything, not that I keep informed about local politics. I just know it's a good place to live, and I've met just about every type of thinker in SF. I have not had a problem getting along with anyone, and I can share my thinking freely around here.

(I'm not a Republican, if that's what you mean) The bit with Willie Brown was hilarious. GOP picked him over a few others they perceived to be further to the left.(You mean there is a further left?)

Sili

[waterj2]

Cambridge, Massachusetts, the home of Harvard and MIT. Often referred to as the People's Republic of Cambridge, the only town in the state to have hired a full-time Peace Commissioner, and overall about as permissive as you're going to get in this country, excepting Berkeley, perhaps. And it's right across the river from Boston, so it's possible to visit the real world as well. And the police don't seem to mind the smell of marijuana in the air.

[TheThill]

Most (north)western European countries (Germany, Holland, Scandanavia). There is a feeling of tolerance not normally possible in the U.S. Of course, every place has its advantages and disadvantages, but then again the OP wasn't asking where heaven on earth might be.

[Kyla]

I have been led to believe that many of these Northern European countries are considered freethinking because everyone, um, is pretty much the same. I had a Norwegian roommate once, and I got the impression from discussions with her that Norway's population (at least in Oslo, where she's from, and I think most Norwegians live) is composed almost completely of Northern European, white, Christians who all speak Norwegian. It's pretty easy to be openminded when everyone else is just like you. And if Germany was so openminded, why is it so hard to become a German citizen for Turkish immigrants? And Yojimbo, I don't want to knock your country, but didn't Ireland just legalize divorce in the last couple years? I know that the huge majority of Irish people are Catholics and therefore not likely to be divorced anyway, but what about non-Catholic Irish peeps? I mean, my religion doesn't forbid divorce. Of course, the point is moot now, but you get what I'm saying.

Dissenting opinions/corrections welcome. Thanks for not screaming at me too loudly. :)

[TheThill]

Originally posted by Kyla
And if Germany was so openminded, why is it so hard to become a German citizen for Turkish immigrants?

It isn't. They just are required to give up their Turkish citizenship first, just like they would if they wanted to become U.S. citizens. The only major difference is that non-Germans' children have not automatically been German citizens upon birth, but this is being changed. In fact, the citizenship laws have recently been loosened.

Otherwise, I do have the feeling that German society is more tolerant in general in the sense that it is less prude and moralizing than U.S. society.
And while there are a great many racists in Germany today, (and awful things happen especially in Germany's backwaters), statistically and from my own experience, truly hateful racists make up a smaller proportion of the population than in other European countries and possibly even the U.S. Indeed, someone with one African parent is often considered to be half-African and half-German, while in the U.S. someone with one African great-grandparent is just "Black".

[oldscratch]

And don't forget the German campaing against scientology. Stupid as scientology is, that just isn't a sign of a tolerant society.

[Mr.Zambezi]

I live in denver, but get to boulder enough to know about it. Boulder accepts all philosophies and political views, as long as they conform to the far left. They want to have a completely relativistic society, but the reality is that they are trying to force everyone there to conform to their ultra liberal views.

For example: there is no smoking allowed on boulder city limits. Cross dressers are can't be fired, but businesses can't make thier employees wear uniforms. You can have pets, but you can't call yourself the owner. But smoking dope and smelling like petchuli oil is A-OK.

As long as you are ultra liberal, reject God, and are willing to have others tell you how to live you life, then boulder is for you.

Oh, yeah, and you have to be rich. Boulder has a zero growth policy meaning that there are no new buildings allowed. As a result population density is unbearable, housing costs are higher than San Fran, and because of the density, there are a billion rules enforced so that all of your neighbors who are just waiting for a cause to fight, don't get offended or put out in any way by your behavior.

It's a wonderful little republic.

[JungleLove]

What about privacy in your own home?

Small towns are pretty nosy, but otherwise you can live in a larger city & do what you want (within reason).

Would you want to move somewhere else to live with people who share your values?
Or wouldn't judge you on your appearance?

I think you can live in a lot of cities and be ignored.

But as for any damn thing going on in public:

I nominate Amsterdam, Berkeley, and San Francisco.
And University towns are going to have more cultural events and that liberal younger population.

[Triskadecamus]

Pardon me, but if you are a true freethinker, why all the preoccupation with the opinions of your putative neighbors? Wouldn't a true freethinker choose his home on the basis of beauty, or climate, or some personal criteria? I don't get it. Are we looking for a colony of freethinking drones to line up with? Is it the relative popularity of freethinking the criterion, or the agreement of the freethinkers of the locale to the freethoughts of the prospective homebuyer?

Tris

[sailor]

>> And don't forget the German campaing against scientology

Oldscratch, this has been discussed here and elsewhere. Scientologists have legally been persecuted in Germany as in other countries for breaking the law, not for their stupid beliefs. Serch this site and you'll find several threads about this, one of them started by me.

[Soupy]

I'll go with the votes for San Francisco.
The big thing there is all the people from Mexico, Central America, Asia, and Pacific Islands. So many different traditions that everyone is in a minority, and no one can make you feel more of an outsider than they are.

[yojimbo]

Originally posted by Kyla
And Yojimbo, I don't want to knock your country, but didn't Ireland just legalize divorce in the last couple years? I know that the huge majority of Irish people are Catholics and therefore not likely to be divorced anyway, but what about non-Catholic Irish peeps?

You're right Kyla but were getting there. For a lot of the Irish State's history the church (catholic) had a very strong influence on politics. This has changed a lot in the last decade or so .

[Sam Stone]

You guys are confusing 'freethinkers' with 'liberal thinkers'. San Franscisco might be great if your 'freethinking' takes the form of smoking dope and being sexually open and a fan of baby seals, but if your 'freethinking' takes the form of wanting to carry a gun and be a member of the militia, then San Fran might not be the place to be.

If you truly believe in free expression, you'll tolerate all of these subcategories, short of outright violent hatred.

You might want to come up here where I live, in Alberta, Canada. It's a generally conservative province, with fiscal restraint and somewhat conservative values. But pot smoking is a misdemeanor (and generally ignored anyway), we sometimes elect socialists just for fun, and the government pretty much stays out of your way. We have no provincial sales tax, but a thriving cultural and artistic life. Here in Edmonton we have jazz festivals, street performer festivals, and all kinds of other cultural events. You fans of socialized medicine will find as much of it as you want here, but if you are opposed to it Alberta is about to set up private clinics as an alternative.

Guns are regulated as they are in other parts of Canada, yet Alberta has a pro-gun culture that makes it easy enough within the boundaries of the law to own a gun and practice with it. Lots of gun ranges, safety courses, liberal quantities of hunting licenses, etc.

All in all, Albertans seem to be a pretty tolerant bunch for all viewpoints.

[oldscratch]

dhanson. That's where you are wrong. Sure SF itself isn't a great place to have a gun. But, just 5 miles north we have Marin. Not only one of the highest incidences of gun ownership in the country but, one of the highest NRA membership per capita areas too.

[SwimmingRiddles]

SF is almost TOO into originality. Anyone who isn't a noncomformnist sticks out. (double negative, I know...)

As a small city, I am fond of my hometown, Burlington, Vt. The political scene is very liberal (we have the only independant congressman in the country), let gays civilly unite (we have a very active gay/lesbian population), the art scene is good, music is decent for the size of the city, it's a college town so we get lots of fun bands, we have a funky open-air market (think 3rd St. Promenade in Santa Monica, but without the palm trees), we're 2.5 hours from Montreal, 4 from Boston, 7 from New York. Basically, Vermont is where old hippies from the West Coast started running to when it got all yuppified out there, and it's where artists run to when they can't deal with New York anymore. It's a fun state.

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Kyla
I have been led to believe that many of these Northern European countries are considered freethinking because everyone, um, is pretty much the same. I had a Norwegian roommate once, and I got the impression from discussions with her that Norway's population (at least in Oslo, where she's from, and I think most Norwegians live) is composed almost completely of Northern European, white, Christians who all speak Norwegian. It's pretty easy to be openminded when everyone else is just like you. And if Germany was so openminded, why is it so hard to become a German citizen for Turkish immigrants? And Yojimbo, I don't want to knock your country, but didn't Ireland just legalize divorce in the last couple years? I know that the huge majority of Irish people are Catholics and therefore not likely to be divorced anyway, but what about non-Catholic Irish peeps? I mean, my religion doesn't forbid divorce. Of course, the point is moot now, but you get what I'm saying.

Dissenting opinions/corrections welcome. Thanks for not screaming at me too loudly. :)

What you are saying is partially valid. There's no need for tolerance if everyone fits the same general description in terms of colour, race, religion and language. However, I think Oslo is possibly a poor example when you're looking for a typcical northwestern European city. Cities like London, Amsterdam, Brussels and Berlin are true melting pots, and tolerance there is comparable to that in Oslo.
Also, you can find the most hideous examples of racism in the Dutch countryside. Particularly in the little villages, where the only black guy known to man is Mr. T. of A-Team fame.

It's not all about the composition of the population. Contact with different cultures makes some more tolerant, and others less tolerant. True tolerance lies within the educational systems and collective morality of a country. In essence, it lies within the people.

It's also extremely logical for the Netherlands to be a tolerant country: after we robbed our colonies empty, the exploited came to us for work and hapiness. Partially, we're only making up for crimes comitted. Not that it's a public guilt trip though: by now, it has become an inherent part of our peoples character. Well, the majority anyway.

[Flyhalf]

Some of these places sound really cool (Cambridge, Burlington, SF, etc., hell even Europe). But why do they all have to be in cold climates? At least relative to where I currently live.

I don't mind snow, but I'm not going to get up and shovel my driveway, go inside and take a shower, and then have to go back and shovel all over again.

"Not gonna do it."

[psiekier]

I'll put my vote with Berkeley - it's got to be the epitome (or at least the stereotype) of liberal towns. Austin would be a pretty good second choice for those here in Texas...

... and just a word of caution for those who think that any "college town" would do for a "free-thinker" atmosphere: I need to tell you about my beloved school, Texas A&M University.

College Station is very much a college town, as the name may suggest. Together with its conjoined twin city Bryan, the population numbers around 100,000; 40,000-45,000 of those are students.

I love A&M. It's the best school in the world, bar none, as far as I'm concerned. However, I would have to say that extreme conservatism and even some traditions may infringe on what some folks would like to consider natural freedoms.

I'd gauge that you would be twenty times more likely to encounter a right-wing/conservative student or social group as you would a leftist/liberal one. Just walk past the bulletin boards on campus and you get a pretty clear idea of the scope of it all.

And don't get me started on Elijah...

---
Pete
Texas A&M Class of '97
Long time RGMWer and ardent AOLer

[APB9999]

What exactly is the definition of "free-thinker"? Different people seem to be using it differently. Does it mean tolerant of others? Politically liberal? (Please do not make me choke by pretending they are the same thing). Does it mean requiring tolerance from others for your own behavior, which some posters seem to imply? Does it mean an aversion to government regulation? To social conventions? These are all different things that may or may not go together, so what exactly does the phrase "free-thinker" cover?

I don't want this to turn into a hijack, just a clarification. For that reason, this question is addressed to the OPer AerynSun. Please let him answer, and let's use whatever definition he gives.

[Sam Stone]

Yeah, it's great to be a freethinker at Berkeley, as long as your free thinking doesn't take the form of wanting to open a fur store, or teach that just because a guy and a girl get drunk and have sex it isn't necessarily 'date rape', or drive a large, gas guzzling car, or try to open a men-only social club, or try to open a religious club on campus, or have pro-life beliefs, or write editorials against gun control or for capital punishment, or...

Berkeley has long had a reputation as being one of the most intolerant areas around for conservatives. The whole anti-political correctness movement got its start because of the excesses of the PC crowd on Berkeley campuses.