Why can't Lynyrd Skynyrd get in the R&R Hall of Fame?

[sulamith]

I know they have the whole Southern Good Ol' Boy thing working against them, and they were/are rednecks to the bone, but those boys could/can play, write and sing with the best of them. They are truly icons in every sense of the word, and NOBODY else can hold a candle to their crash and burn (literally) backstory. Many current rockers have named them as inpirations. I am not even that big a fan, and even I can see this isn't right.

I know they aren't politically correct, but that's what R&R is all about, right?

So what else does the Hall of Fame want?

[Mister Rik]

I ask the same question about Rush, for many of the same reasons.

[sulamith]

From what I understand, they get nominated practically every year, but they never make the final cut. I know it is merely a popularity contest, but it still seems horribly unfair.

I guess it is just like the Oscars, in that who actually wins doesn't truly say anything about talent.

[WordMan]

Yep - it stinks. But an even bigger crime is Black Sabbath - they invented a whole new genre of music that is vital and thriving to this day and they haven't been inducted. :rolleyes:

[Spoke]

I keep asking the same question. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=148000)

It's a mystery. One of the most influential bands of the 70s, they gave us one of rock and roll's most memorable riffs (opening riff of "Sweet Home Alabama") and one of rock and roll's all-time enduring cliches (yelling "Freebird" at live concerts).

Surely they are "famous" enough?

[sulamith]

Thanks for that link, spoke! I read through that thread, and it still kills me that so many people don't know that whole Neil Young reference in SHA was a joke. Neil Young and Ronnie Van Zant were actually friendly. The whole thing was a good-natured swipe from what I have been told. It seems it still comes off as Southern ignorance to some.

And Rolling Stone magazine? That rag has sucked for years. Once you couldn't buy bongs from the back pages anymore it became pretty useless, IMHO.

I have redeveloped a new appreciation for them in the last few years. I grew up in the "pit of the Peach state" and was force-fed a steady diet of LS, Allmans, and Hank Williams, Jr. as a teenager in the 70's. All my dates blasted it constantly, and at the time I wanted nothing to with it... I was into Fleetwood Mac and Linda Roundstadt, but now I see my disdain of it had more to with my fear of winding up as some peanut farmer's wife than the music itself.

My favorites are not Freebird and SHA. It doesn't get any better than Curtis Loew and You Got That Right.

As someone else said, maybe they will get in before thay are all dead, but even if they don't, they rock.

Oh, and try as I might, I only like pre-crash LS.

[sulamith]

When I say "I have redeveloped a new appreciation for them" in the above post, I mean LS, not RS magazine!

[Sam Stone]

Skynyrd was hugely influential - at least as much as the Allman Brothers were. They kicked off a revival in Southern Rock that led to a huge boom in that kind of music. Artists as wide ranging as Molly Hatchet and Willie Nelson benefited from Skynyrd's influence.

And they wrote some damned fine songs. They should have been in the hall of fame a long time ago.

But then, Warren Zevon isn't in either. This is a travesty at least as big.

[duffer]

This isn't the Pit, so I'll take a deep breath first.


OK. Looking through who is in, I'm seeing a lot of people/groups that weren't known mainly for rock and roll. They are all good performers, but they don't scream rock in my mind's eye. Included are:

The Temptations
Stevie Wonder
Bob Marley
Parliament-Funkadelic
Isaac Hayes (But no Barry White?) :confused:

Again, all good performers, but not really what I think of when I think rock and roll.

The ones not included?

Rush
STYX
REO Speedwagon
Warren Zevon
Black Sabbath
Joe Satriani
Steve Vai
And of course, LS.


RnR HoF seems to be filled with a bunch of pretentious uptight twits that require some ass-kissing to consider you. What a sham. :mad:

[Marley23]

Joe Satriani
Steve Vai
Both still too recent. You're eligible 25 years after the release of your first album.

If not thinking of Styx or REO Speedwagon as Hall of Fame bands makes you a pretentious uptight twit, well . . . . . . . . . I can't even think of a way to end that sentence.

[E-Sabbath]

Sabbath, IIRC, has asked to be 'included out'.

[Marley23]

Sabbath, IIRC, has asked to be 'included out'.
That's how I remember it too. Or at least Ozzy did. Hard to expect them to be included after that.

[duffer]

Both still too recent. You're eligible 25 years after the release of your first album.

If not thinking of Styx or REO Speedwagon as Hall of Fame bands makes you a pretentious uptight twit, well . . . . . . . . . I can't even think of a way to end that sentence.

Forgot about the 25 years.

Styx and REO I included based on not only commercial success, but longevity and sentimental reasons. Granted, there aren't any new albums, but they're still touring and selling tickets, so the fan base is still there. And either way, they were much more r'n'r bands than, say, The Jackson 5.

Omit 'em from the list if you wish. Maybe it's a big reason I don't get to vote. :shrug:

[duffer]

Sabbath, IIRC, has asked to be 'included out'.


I forgot to include this in the last post.

I didn't hear they/Ozzy wanted to be exempted. Can Ozzy change his mind? If it was just Ozzy can the others push for induction anyway?

Also, to save time in searching, anyone know off-hand if The Doobie Bros or Three Dog Night is in?

[Marley23]

Granted, there aren't any new albums, but they're still touring and selling tickets, so the fan base is still there. And either way, they were much more r'n'r bands than, say, The Jackson 5.
Yeah, even though they have their Influences category and such, the actual criteria aren't that clear.

[sulamith]

REO Speedwagon?

Bleck.

They rate about the same on my list as Air Supply, which is pert' near the bottom.

I don't think Styx was innovative or influential enough, but that's just my opinion.

Ozzy has opted himself out?



Then I guess it isn't worth having. So, I shouldn't even be pissed that LS isn't in the daggone thing. :D

Thanks, Ozzy!

[Jeff Lodoen]

Whenever the RRHOF comes up I gotta mention: The Moody Blues. Eligible since 1992, and that's being generous by omitting the Denny Laine era.

I still have hope for them.

Styx/Foreigner/Boston/REO/Journey never gonna happen.. Bon Jovi will get in first. Tiffany too! The Baha Men! I'm resigned to it.

I mean Gene Pitney is already in! Nothing against him but....

[kevja]

O Jays are in, but Stevie Wonder is not. ?????

and how about...

Heart
VanHalen
Pat Benetar

[duffer]

O Jays are in, but Stevie Wonder is not. ?????

and how about...

Heart
VanHalen
Pat Benetar


Stevie's in.

And a list of three shoo-ins assuming they haven't met the 25 year mark. If they're eligible, that proves it's a sham.

[Nocturne]

The Temptations
Stevie Wonder
Bob Marley
Parliament-Funkadelic
Isaac Hayes (But no Barry White?) :confused:



Joe Satriani
Steve Vai


Reggae is a form of rock-and-roll, as far as I know...Bob Marley's also been seriously influential to several rock bands who've adopted the "reggae style" (think 311). If they're going to include reggae artists...I wonder if Peter Tosh is in there as well?

You could make a case for early Stevie Wonder being rock-and-roll, as well as Parliament-Funkadelic...funk is still rock.

Anyway, if reggae, early R&B (which was simultaneous, was influenced by, and influenced early rock-and-roll) aren't "real" rock, then Steve Vai and Joe Satriani aren't. They're good at what they do, but if you're looking for staying "true" to rock-and-roll...well they don't. However, if it was only "true" rock and roll, then nobody should've been admitted after the early 60s. YMMV.

[kevja]

Stevie's in.

And a list of three shoo-ins assuming they haven't met the 25 year mark. If they're eligible, that proves it's a sham.

OK, good for Wonder.

Heart's first album came out in 1976

Pat Benatar -- "Hearbreaker" 1979

Van Halen -- huh???? first album 77/78

[Sam Stone]

I wouldn't put Heart, Pat Benator, Styx, or REO Speedwagon in the RR HoF.

Van Halen, yes. They were very influential, hugely successful, and critically admired. The others, not so much.

But let me repeat: WARREN ZEVON.

[sulamith]

Yes, Warren should be in!

Excitable Boy, Werewolves of London, Mohammed's Radio...


I agree Styx, REO, Journey, etc... shouldn't get in, but Heart? And I'm talkin' 70's Heart, not 80's corporate sell-out fat-Ann Heart. Nancy was the first really serious girl guitar player wasn't she? I would say she probably influenced a great many females to rock not only the mike but to actually play. I think Crazy on You, Barracuda, and Magic Man were very groud-breaking songs.

[neutron star]

I ask the same question about Rush, for many of the same reasons.

Except for Pink Floyd, they snubbed the entire genre of progressive rock. Nowhere to be found on the list (http://www.rockhall.com/hof/allinductees.asp) are names like King Crimson, Yes, Jethro Tull, ELP, and Genesis. Prog has seen several resurgences in popularity since King Crimson popularized the style in the late '60s. It deserves more than just a token nod to the one band too popular to ignore.

The list of inductees skews toward the R&B and soul music of the '50s and '60s, and later artists whose music was heavily influenced by those styles. Comparatively dispassionate rock music (that is, the stuff my wife calls me "really white" for listening to) doesn't seem to stand much of a chance

[duffer]

The list of inductees skews toward the R&B and soul music of the '50s and '60s, and later artists whose music was heavily influenced by those styles.

Exactly my point. That's why I said they were worthy performers, but for rock, meh. Granted Motown and R&B were influences on rock, but influence on rock n roll doesn't make it rock n roll.

I'll listen to Legend from time to time, but I'll never see how it's rock.

And isn't CCR seen as more southern rock than just rock? Why them and not Skynyrd?

[zoogirl]

Okay, the RRHoF is a total joke. I think we all know that.

Alice Cooper isn't in. I mean, Alice Cooper!? How much more inventive, groundbreaking and original do you have to be?!

"Eighteen" came out in '71, so it's not the twenty-five year thing. Heck, even "Welcome To My Nightmare" has been around since '75, so he's eligible with and without his original band.

He's still putting out records. "Dirty Diamonds" will be released in May or June. He's still on tour. Matter of fact, this year he's doing Europe, including England, Australia and North America. He's doing a five hour, five day a week radio show. You can't get much more active than that! Heck, he's even mainstream enough to have been featured in a Staples ad last fall! C'mon, there's just no exuse!

Oh, and Skynard is being massively ripped off too.

[Jeff Lodoen]

Yes, Warren should be in!
... but Heart? And I'm talkin' 70's Heart, not 80's corporate sell-out fat-Ann Heart. Nancy was the first really serious girl guitar player wasn't she? I would say she probably influenced a great many females to rock not only the mike but to actually play. I think Crazy on You, Barracuda, and Magic Man were very groud-breaking songs.

Let's not forget Roger Fisher in all that. Heart wasn't a girl-group, not that there's anything wrong with those.



And CCR weren't _actually_ southern, maybe thats a consideration. And of course '60s > '70s.

[duffer]

And CCR weren't _actually_ southern, maybe thats a consideration. And of course '60s > '70s.


Agreed. But CCR can be in southern rock as much as any other category. Born on the Bayou, Lookin' Out My Back Door, Down on the Corner, Up Around the Bend, et al. Even if they weren't from the south, I'd argue they were at least going for a southern rock sound and were pretty good at it. Hell, Green Day are some kids from Frisco being laudably compared to English punk groups.

I'll choose to stand by CCR being worthy.


Oh, and Alice Cooper? When I made the previous list I just knew there was an obvious one I had forgotten. Thanks, zoogirl.

[Jeff Lodoen]

I'll choose to stand by CCR being worthy.

Not argung worthiness, just why CCR got in. Being from the SF-area in the '60s helped. And they were very, very popular. Seven #2 hits over 19 months!

[SkipMagic]

I'm pretty disappointed that Chicago hasn't made it in yet. According to, I believe, Billboard, they've sold more albums than any other American group, excepting the Beach Boys.

While they weren't the first to use a horn section in rock, they were certainly the most popular group to employ it in more than one single; plus, if you ask me, they did the best work with it.

And instead of sticking with the same formula decade after decade (they've managed to chart albums in five consecutive decades), they've changed course with their music numerous times.

[Spoke]

Focus, people, focus. We're talking about Lynyrd Skynyrd. :)

Thanks for that link, spoke! I read through that thread, and it still kills me that so many people don't know that whole Neil Young reference in SHA was a joke. Neil Young and Ronnie Van Zant were actually friendly. The whole thing was a good-natured swipe from what I have been told. It seems it still comes off as Southern ignorance to some.

That whole song is misinterpreted, and I'm sure that's a big part of the reason they're kept out. Nobody understands irony. (I offer Alanis Morissette as proof of this last proposition.)

I have redeveloped a new appreciation for them in the last few years.


...My favorites are not Freebird and SHA. It doesn't get any better than Curtis Loew and You Got That Right.

I was never a huge fan at the time, but have come to appreciate them more. I'm with you on "Curtis Loew," and am also really fond of "Simple Man" and "All I Can Do Is Write About It". You can't listen to those songs and still write them off just as a bunch of rednecks.

Well actually, I guess you can. The Hall of Fame voters seem to be doing just that.

[Duke of Rat]

"Simple Man" was covered by Shinedown last summer, it was on the radio in heavy rotation. Seems like LS has had at least some influence all the way up to the present.

[sulamith]

I guess alot of people miss the more sensitive, thoughtful songs in favor of the two over-played ones, and then they take those at face value. It's not like they are a very complicated band to "get". That's, to me, what makes Ronnie Van Zant a true poet and artist, as rough around the edges as he was. He wrote about what he knew, which was the world outside his backdoor, and he stayed true to it.

That's the mark of any great artist.

I have been boning up on a bit of LS history, and I read that he wrote Gimme Three Steps in about 15 minutes following the incident that inspired it, and that Simple Man was written about one of the gutarist's relationship with his mother, Curtis Loew is a composite of many of the old black bluesmen Ronnie was exposed to growing up. Those songs ring so true because they are about real things, real feelings.

That Smell is eeriely prophetic, as is Freebird. Swamp Music tells of the simple pleasures of life in the country, and Working for MCA and Don't Ask Me No Questions deal with record industry issues. So real, and very touching.

[Spoke]

Imagine the sheer joy of a Hall of Fame all-star performance of "Sweet Home Alabama," should Lynyrd Skynyrd ever be inducted. The opening strains alone would send the crowd into a frenzy. I bet Neil Young would jump at the chance to handle the vocals.

Here's a link to that old USA Today column about Lynyrd Skynyrd's exclusion from the HoF. (http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-10-16-lynyrd-skynyrd_x.htm) From that article:

Little about Skynyrd's music was ever as obvious as it seemed. Detractors dismissed the band as rednecks, but such songs as the anti-handgun Saturday Night Special and That Smell, which warned of the dark side of substance use, told a different story. They were intelligent songs that engaged and challenged the group's audience. Gimme Three Steps contradicted the band's macho swagger by suggesting there was a time to fight and a time to turn tail and run.

[RickJay]

I wouldn't put Heart, Pat Benator, Styx, or REO Speedwagon in the RR HoF.

Van Halen, yes. They were very influential, hugely successful, and critically admired. The others, not so much.

But let me repeat: WARREN ZEVON.
I hate Lynyrd Skynyrd and I love Warren Zevon, but I'd put LS in the Hall of Fame and probably not Zevon.

Warren Zevon was great, but in terms of popularity and influence he isn't in the Top 1000 of rock and roll acts, and his songs were not examples of instrumental genius a la Steve Vai or even Van Halen. I think you have to base your decisions on more than just "I personally think this guy rocks."

[Sweetums]

The "House of Bogus" as I call the RRHOF, lost me whan they inducted the Bee Gees, but have failed to include the likes of Warren Zevon, and Skynyrd.

Please explain to me why the Bee Gees (the people who the saying "Disco Sucks" was designed to target) have made a more significant contribution to something called rock and roll, than Skynyrd.

[Ike Witt]

While they weren't the first to use a horn section in rock, they were certainly the most popular group to employ it in more than one single; plus, if you ask me, they did the best work with it.

And they don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band. It ain't what they call rock 'n roll. Speaking of which, is there any love for Dire Straights?

[JohnBckWLD]

...Parliament-Funkadelic...but not really what I think of when I think rock and roll.

The ones not included?...STYX
REO SpeedwagonGet thee to an otologist

[Marley23]

You know, the fact that so many possibly-worthy groups aren't in may explain why some of them aren't in there. Five performers per year for 20 years is going to leave some people out.

[GargoyleWB]

Bingo. The RRHOF is just playing catch up, and it will take decades, possibly centuries, for this to happen at a 5/year rate.

They should do a mega-super-induction every 4 years or so like the Olympics, throw a massive party, and roll in a couple dozen groups.

If I had my druthers, I'd rename the whole building into the "Alice Cooper Hall of Pretenders to the Throne."

[kelly5078]

Have you ever been to the RRHOF? BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING. I don't know why anybody would want to be there.

[Strainger]

I know they have the whole Southern Good Ol' Boy thing working against them, and they were/are rednecks to the bone...You say that like it's a bad thing.

[brianjedi]

"Simple Man" was covered by Shinedown last summer, it was on the radio in heavy rotation. Seems like LS has had at least some influence all the way up to the present.

Shinedown released that because their lead singer is married to Melody Van Zant, Ronnie's daughter.

I've given my opinion on this several times. Skynyrd is a hell of a lot more qualified than a lot of people already in, but they won't get in. I've accepted that. At this point, Lynyrd Skynyrd is the Bruce Sutter or Goose Gossage of the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame.

[Sam Stone]

I hate Lynyrd Skynyrd and I love Warren Zevon, but I'd put LS in the Hall of Fame and probably not Zevon.

Warren Zevon was great, but in terms of popularity and influence he isn't in the Top 1000 of rock and roll acts, and his songs were not examples of instrumental genius a la Steve Vai or even Van Halen. I think you have to base your decisions on more than just "I personally think this guy rocks."

Warren Zevon was not that popular publically, but he was a 'musician's musician' and was immensely influential on other musicians. He took the emerging mellow California singer-songwriter movement and kicked it in the ass. He helped move the Eagles from their early country-rock into the harder edged music on 'Hotel California' and "The Long Run" (the Eagles admired him, and members regularly appeared on his albums). I can't count the number of interviews and books I've read in which various artists expressed their admiration for and the influence of Zevon. Look at the number of major musicians who played on his albums - they didn't do it for the money, since he rarely cracked a couple of hundred thousand in album sales. They did it because they wanted to play with Warren Zevon.

A sign of his influence would be that he got his own tribute at the Grammy's the year he died. For a guy who never had a #1 hit, that's impressive.

He was also influential in other arts. Dave Letterman has said that Zevon was influential in developing his sarcastic humor. Carl Hiassen was influenced by Zevon. "Things to do in Denver When You're Dead" became a movie title, and one of Zevon's songs was the title song for the TV Show 'Action'.

And while Zevon himself may not have had a whole lot of commercial success, Linda Ronstadt had huge hits with "Carmelita" and "Poor Poor Pitiful Me".