Christians Only: Is George W. Bush going to Hell?

[B. Serum]

Anybody reading the news the past few years will know that Bush is a pro-life kind of guy. I'm assuming some or much of this comes from his faith.

But based on the contention that as a governor and president, he directly or indirectly caused quite a few deaths, is his soul in jeopardy of going to hell? You don't get a free pass just because you're not the one who pulled the trigger, do you?

Now obviously, he acted within the parameters of the powers vested in him by the state and is free and clear under the law of man. But I'm more curious how the various strains of Christians view his behavior against their faith.

I'm assuming that few, if any, Christians want him to go to hell, but that's different than how well he has been living the Word of God. Given that, please share any verses that support your assertion one way or the other.

Also, plenty of esteemed world leaders have engaged in war and sent criminals to their deaths and it's understood that criteria we put on Bush would naturally extend to anyone who has done the same deeds.

So, how will he be judged in the afterlife?


Can a thread involving both politics and religion stay out of the Pit? Here's hoping.

[XT]

I hear the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If so I'm certain GW has a date with the devil at some point. ;)

While I'm not a practicing Christian anymore, I'd say that it depends on if Bush has asked for forgiveness. The church (not sure which church he belongs too so this all might be incorrect) has always maintained that sometime killing is justified. And even if it isn't, you can always be forgiven your sins if you truely repent (IIRC).

-XT

[Good Egg]

Lots of murderers get "saved" and therefore can go to Heaven. But, no real christian would keep making that devil sign with their fingers like Bush does. ;)

[WeRSauron]

Who goes to Heaven or to Hell is up to a) the judgment of God, and b) the state of the person's soul.

B. It is entirely possible that before his death, Bush would repent of his sins (those he is aware of) and ask God for forgiveness. In addition, depending on which denomination is correct, he may have gone through the required rituals (baptism, confirmation, communion seem to be the most common) or have invited Jesus into his life and declared Him as Lord - in other words, done what is necessary for entrance to Heaven. As such, he would not go to Hell. In the same vein, it is also possible that he dies in sin and rebellion against God, in which case he may go to Hell. But see below.

A. God is the ultimate judge of who is accepted and who is rejected. Nevertheless, being all-powerful, all-wise, and all-just, God is not bound: He is free to do as He wills. To put it in the terminology of certain denominations, "Humanity is bound by the sacraments, but God is not bound by the sacrament." He may save whomever He wills, and He may cast down whomever He wills. This is most pronounced in Calvinist theology, where the sovereignty of God is very much emphasized. I guess a good summary would be: "God saves whom He saves; God damns whom He damns." And, of course, God is above our judgment or scrutiny.

The short answer: There's no way for any person to tell or determine, unless that person is God.

After all, Christians are supposed to be more concerned about the status/fate of one's own soul rather than someone else's. (Which doesn't mean Christians should ignore everyone else spiritually: part of serving God and winning His favor is reaching out to others. But Christians should not focus on the status/fate of another's soul more than one's own.)

WRS

[Metacom]

No. As a Christian universalist, I don't think anyone goes to hell.

[kanicbird]

This goes back to murder vs. kill. As Commandar-in-Chief he is taking a millitary action and gets a pass under killing is OK, a pass which every service man also gets.

[Good Egg]

BTW, I wasn't claiming Bush is a murderer, but many murderers have claimed to be saved; Berkowitz, Tex Watson, etc.

[FriarTed]

No. As a Christian universalist, I don't think anyone goes to hell.

As a Christian hopeful-universalist, I think everyone goes to Hell on the way to Heaven.

There are Biblically, two "Hells"- the Hole (Sheol in Hebrew & Hades in Greek) & the Fire (Gehenna- a Hebrew-Greek mix), Extreme Darkness (Absence of God) and Extreme Light (Excess of God). The best Christians usually experience awareness of their alienation from God, the horror of sin & their need for His Grace in this life- thus, their Hell experience gets out of the way & they may well zing into Heaven at death/resurrection. Immature faulty believers & outright unbelievers & sinners may have to experience some Absence of God (the Hole) and Excess of God (the Fire) to be driven to open themselves to Christ's Grace.

RE the OP about Bush- to the extent Bush knowingly manipulated us into an unnecessary war (tho whether he did so or it was unnecessary are VERY debatable) and does not repent & make whatever reparation possible- privately & publically, he will suffer the Hole & the Fire on his way to learning Grace.

To the extent he acted deceptively & murderously, he will be punished; to the extent he acted wrongly but was honestly misled, he will be corrected; to the extent he acted justly, he will be rewarded- all under the direction of the Ruthlessly Just & Loving Jesus. I think his fate leans more to the latter two, and less to the former.

[FriarTed]

BTW, I wasn't claiming Bush is a murderer, but many murderers have claimed to be saved; Berkowitz, Tex Watson, etc.


King David, Saul of Tarsus

[Lord Ashtar]

I assume that when being sworn into office as governor of Texas, GWB put his hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the laws of the land, similar to what he did as President. Since the death penalty is on the lawbooks of Texas, he's just doing what he swore he would.

[dotchan]

"What's it to you if I keep him alive until Kingdome Come? Follow me." :D

[Renob]

As was said before, no one can know the state of anyone's fate after death, so there is no answer for the OP.

However, the position that if one kills or participates in killing then one must be condemned by God is contrary to anything in the Bible. Throughout the Old Testament God commanded His people to kill and destroy other inhabitants of Israel. Obviously the God of the Bible does not hate killing. He commands it at times.

Now that's not to say that I believe that no killing is condemned by God. What I'm saying is that we must look at the circumstances of the killing, since the Bible in no place teaches that killing, in and of itself, is wrong.

[Scribble]

King David

King David? The guy lived a long, long time before the birth of Jesus. How could he be considered "saved," by the Christian definition of that word?

[FriarTed]

King David? The guy lived a long, long time before the birth of Jesus. How could he be considered "saved," by the Christian definition of that word?


David & the righteous of OT times are "saved" in the sense that they are recipients of the Grace & Forgiveness of God, and now dwell in blessed rest while awaiting the Resurrection in the Age-to-Come.

And it is one Christian belief that in order to get them properly "saved" in the C'tian sense, that Jesus descended into Sheol between His death & resurrection to proclaim His saving work & invite them to trust in Him as Lord & Savior.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

It is the position of the Catholic Church that no one knows who goes to heaven or hell, or even whether such things exist as concepts around which we can wrap our minds.


Do I, personally, think GWB is destined for Hell?


I can answer that by saying that, while Hell does not appear in the Bible, Matthew Chapter 7 certainly does. And I certainly have enough trouble keeping my mind on my own adherence to the Christian example to have enough time to worry about the adherence of some dude I only met once.

[smiling bandit]

Aside from the foolishness of the question (no offense to the OP, but it's very hard-to-define one), I suspect not. Regardless of his methods (certainly questionable in leberal eyes) Bush is attempting to do the best he can for the world. This involves causing what appears at first to be chaos.But his enemies always have the final choice:

They can choose surrender.

[BobLibDem]

It is not my place to decide, of course. And the concept of hell has been losing ground over the years, so there may not even be such a place. I'm reminded of what my pastor challenged us with: "If you were accused of being a Christian, what would they use for evidence?" Jesus said the greatest commandments were to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Whether he loves God or not is surely not mine to judge. But I do question his love for neighbor. I'm troubled by his callous disregard for those condemned to be executed while governor. I'm troubled by his wanting to enrich those in society that are already at the top. Jesus said to feed the poor, and I don't believe their welfare is high on his priorities. But the gravest concerns I have for his soul concern Iraq. There are some wars that are just. WW II was one, Iraq was not. A true Christian leader would instigate war only as a last resort, for Bush it was a first resort. Even more troubling is his condoning the use of torture. Any Christian that this week recalls the passion of Jesus knows full well the suffering and torture that He went through. To cause others such pain deliberately is a definite un-Christianlike position.

[shelbo]

Well, the kingdom of heaven is out, at least:

Matthew 19:24 - And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

[Kythereia]

It isn't up to me--and thank God for that.

Would I, personally, send him there? I have honestly no idea. Who am I to judge?

[Diceman]

Traditionally, there is a difference between killing for personal reasons (ie, murder) and what you might call "impersonal killing," which includes self-defense, judicial executions and wars. Murder is always a mortal sin, but the other types are only sins if they occur unjustly. IMHO, Texas' executions won't jeopordize Bush's soul unless he knowingly let an innocent man die. (I disagree with the Catholic Church regarding captial punishment. I think that it can be a valid way to atone for a very serious sin.) As for the war, the key issue is whether Bush really thought that the war was necessary. IOW, did he think that the world would be a better place after the war, and did he think that the positive benefits would outweigh the costs in human suffering? That's not an easy question to answer and, ultimately, only Bush and God are capable of knowing what that answer is. I didn't approve of the war at the time, and I still don't, but I don't know everything that the president does, so I don't pretend to know if the Iraq War was justified or not.

[RedFury]

I want to believe there's a hell, for if there were, cold-blooded murderers like Bush would be standing at the front of the line.

Too bad the whole concept is so irrational.

[The Asbestos Mango]

I have become increasingly convinced that G.W. converted to the current brand of Fund'ist Christianity that he now practices solely to score political points with right-wing and conservative Christians Texas and the nation at large. Whether this was followed up by a genuine conversion at some point is hard to say, but I doubt it.

Is he going to Hell?

Not for me to say.

[B. Serum]

...since the Bible in no place teaches that killing, in and of itself, is wrong.

I disagree. "Thou shall not kill." (Deuteronomy 5: 17)

[Jaade]

As many others have stated already, it is not for us to decide - or truly even speculate - about the likelyhood of GW entering the kingdom of Heaven or being sent to Hell for his sins.


1. We don't know what his sins are. We can speculate, but we've not stood in his shoes. We can hate what he's done, but we do not know what he knows. (which could be nothing)

2. We do not know what is truly in his heart. Again, we can speculate, but we do not know.

If Bush makes his peace with God at any time before his death - i.e., asks for forgiveness for all of his sins and truly intends not to sin inasmuch as is humanly possible at the time - then my religion says he can be saved. Now, my religion also requires a certain baptismal procedure that is largely semantical but that is taken very seriously amongst the Pentecostals (Acts 2:38) and so in many of their eyes, he wouldn't be saved for that reason. I disagree with that portion of my religion (among others..) and can only simply say this: If Bush is truly sorry and asks the Lord wholeheartedly for forgiveness for his sins before he dies. then he should be saved.

[Mr. Moto]

I should point out that if Bush really wanted to score points with the hard core Christian Right, he wouldn't be a member of one of the more mainline of the Protestant denominations. The Methodists aren't known for their radical fundamentalism, generally.

A more fundamentalist leaning man would join, say, a Baptist church. I'd guess some would be frightened at this prospect, except that the last three Baptist presidents we've had were Clinton, Carter and Truman.

The upshot of all this is that this concern about the particular denomination a political candidate belongs to seems misguided. It's the same sentiment that caused folks to vote against Al Smith and JFK because they were Catholic.

We laugh at these beliefs today as a quaint form of bigotry, and rightly so.

[Lord Ashtar]

I disagree. "Thou shall not kill." (Deuteronomy 5: 17)
The NIV, New American Standard Bible, the Amplified, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, New King James Version, Young's Literal Translation, and the Holman Christian Standard Version all use the word "murder", which I'm sure we can all agree has different connotations than "kill".

[Renob]

I disagree. "Thou shall not kill." (Deuteronomy 5: 17)

Really? Have you read the rest of the Bible? Have you read where God commands the Israelites to kill many, many times. Just look at Joshua, basically every chapter is God commanding Joshua to slaughter people. Chapter 8, for instance, has God giving the Israelites the city of Ai and the Israelites slaughtering all of them -- 12,000 in total. This type of thing is repeated throughout the book.

Or, if you want to stick to Deuteronomy, then check out chapter 17, verse 5: "you shall bring out that man or woman who has done this evil deed (serving other gods) . . . and you shall stone them to death." There are numerous other examples throughout the Law where God commands death.

There are two conclusions to be drawn: 1) God is a liar. In one place He condemns killing and in another commands it. 2) God does not really condemn killing, just murder. Most interpretations of God's command against "killing" state that it is more properly translated as "murder."

[Revtim]

If God existed and was really serious about folks not bearing false witness, the streets in hell would be paved with presidents and politicians. And no, I do not just mean Republicans.

[Renob]

Jesus said to feed the poor, and I don't believe their welfare is high on his priorities.
And where did Jesus say to have the government force your neighbor to care for your other neighbor? I don't remember him ever saying that the government is responsible for caring for anyone. I seem to recall Him commanding His followers to care for the sick and the poor and the widows. He didn't say abdicate that responsibility to the government.

[rjung]

Any god that would allow someone who starts a war on false pretenses to avoid eternal punishment is not worthy of worship.

IMO.

[Lord Ashtar]

Good thing for GWB that you're not God, right rjung?

[Shodan]

Good thing for GWB that you're not God, right rjung?
But if he were God, and therefore correct about everything, he wouldn't exist, would he?

Regards,
Shodan

[XT]

Any god that would allow someone who starts a war on false pretenses to avoid eternal punishment is not worthy of worship.

Hell hath no fury like that of a liberal scorned! :)

-XT

[Martin Hyde]

As a Christian I have to say, "I have no clue." I live life as best I can, I try not to sin, but I do, sometimes I probably commit sins that I don't realize at the time and have never recognized in retrospect. I ask forgiveness for the sins I recognize. I chastise myself when I'm cruel or hateful to others. Just because an action I take doesn't necessarily appear to be "scripturally" sinful doesn't mean it is something God would like. Jesus taught us to live by example, and that goes beyond just attempting to abstain from sin.

Despite my solid understanding of myself, my religion, and God's holy scripture I have no real understanding of God. He is beyond my understanding. I cannot tell you in good conscience that I think XX is going to heaven or I think XX is going to hell. I just cannot know that, I cannot know the will and intentions of the almighty.

Now, aside from that, if I was to make some sort of "wild guess" based on certain assumptions we have, even that wouldn't be accurate in the case of President Bush. I do not know him personally. I don't have information on what he does in his personal life, it just isn't available to me.

However, his public persona I do know to some degree. And I'll say from my understanding of scripture just being commander in chief of a military force that happens to kill enemy soldiers and sometimes accidentally civilians doesn't put you on the bad side of God. Many of scripture's most honored figures were military leaders that killed many.

[Martin Hyde]

Any god that would allow someone who starts a war on false pretenses to avoid eternal punishment is not worthy of worship.

IMO.

But again, there is still debate about how "false" the pretenses were. You don't know that WMD weren't in Iraq, you don't know that even if some people in the United States Government felt that WMD in Iraq weren't significant or weren't a meaningful threat that Bush himself knew all the details. Bureaucracy hides many things from the top of the hierarchy.

Basically introducing a political opinion, even one that is grounded firmly in the opinions of many people on this forum doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

And finally even if it was on false pretenses any god that doesn't offer forgiveness isn't worthy of worship, and the Christian God does offer forgiveness.

[Captain Amazing]

I disagree. "Thou shall not kill." (Deuteronomy 5: 17)

"Lo tirtsah" -Don't murder.

[BobLibDem]

And where did Jesus say to have the government force your neighbor to care for your other neighbor? I don't remember him ever saying that the government is responsible for caring for anyone. I seem to recall Him commanding His followers to care for the sick and the poor and the widows. He didn't say abdicate that responsibility to the government.

That's what civilized countries do. Obviously private charity has its place, but the sheer numbers of poor people make government intervention the only viable method for helping the masses. Jesus' teaching is clear that we ARE our brothers' keepers.

[The Asbestos Mango]

I should point out that if Bush really wanted to score points with the hard core Christian Right, he wouldn't be a member of one of the more mainline of the Protestant denominations. The Methodists aren't known for their radical fundamentalism, generally.

A more fundamentalist leaning man would join, say, a Baptist church. I'd guess some would be frightened at this prospect, except that the last three Baptist presidents we've had were Clinton, Carter and Truman.



The problem with that is that Methodism, like most of the major Christian denominations, has a spectrum that ranges from conservatism Fund'ism to liberalism. The denomination in its greatest part might be mainline to liberal. Dubya just happens to belong to the conservative Fund'ist end of the spectrum.

[John Mace]

That's what civilized countries do. Obviously private charity has its place, but the sheer numbers of poor people make government intervention the only viable method for helping the masses. Jesus' teaching is clear that we ARE our brothers' keepers.

Puh-LEEEESE. Jesus did not say "Take from thy neighbor and feed the poor."

Your argument about what "civilized country do" is a bit better, but still basically circular in nature.

[Renob]

That's what civilized countries do. Obviously private charity has its place, but the sheer numbers of poor people make government intervention the only viable method for helping the masses. Jesus' teaching is clear that we ARE our brothers' keepers.
I agree that we are our brother's keeper, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that the government is our borther's keeper. The Bible talks about person-to-person love, not person-to-government-to-person cash transfers. We can debate about whether or not a welfare state is the best way of helping the poor (or whether or not it simply subsidizes destructive lifestyle choices), but the fact remains that there is a debate to be had. It's not simply a black-and-white issue.

Anyone who makes the statement that "Jesus commands His followers to help the poor so therefore if you don't support government 'anti-poverty' programs then you are a bad Christian" has a very limited view of both religion and politics. A person's political opinions do not determine the state of his soul. Both the left and the right would benefit from recognizing this.

[rjung]

Basically introducing a political opinion, even one that is grounded firmly in the opinions of many people on this forum doesn't really add anything to the discussion.
Kinda hard to avoid the matter when we're talking about a political figure, ainnit?

[John Mace]

Just out of curioiusity, for those who say or imply or wish that Bush is headed southward upon his death: Which modern presidents do you think WON'T be joining him?

[Mr. Moto]

The problem with that is that Methodism, like most of the major Christian denominations, has a spectrum that ranges from conservatism Fund'ism to liberalism. The denomination in its greatest part might be mainline to liberal. Dubya just happens to belong to the conservative Fund'ist end of the spectrum.

This is your assertion, sure, and it seems to be a popular view. But can you show me any kind of proof that Bush's religious views are in this fringe element of methodism?

You can back this up, right?

[BobLibDem]

Puh-LEEEESE. Jesus did not say "Take from thy neighbor and feed the poor."

I think He'd say that you have an obligation to feed the poor, as does your neighbor. Taxation just happens to be an expedient means to the end. Unless and until private donations swell to unprecedented levels, this is unavoidable.

Just out of curioiusity, for those who say or imply or wish that Bush is headed southward upon his death: Which modern presidents do you think WON'T be joining him?

Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford both seem to be good candidates for heading the opposite way.

[XT]

Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford both seem to be good candidates for heading the opposite way.

You know, I agree. And what does THAT say about successful vs unsuccessful presidents? :eek:

-XT

[Martin Hyde]

Kinda hard to avoid the matter when we're talking about a political figure, ainnit?

Not really. The issue is religious, the thread is aimed to gauge specifically christian responses. Your political *opinion* by all understandings of Christianity accepted by any sect of Christianity in the world has absolutely no relevance to whether or not GWB is going to heaven or hell, and I don't think it takes a genius to recognize that fact.

Anyways, you basically made the assumption that any god that let X person into heaven isn't deserving of worship. Which basically is saying any god that offers forgiveness isn't worthy of worship. Which means you aren't Christian (or if you are, you believe in a sick and perverted form of Christianity) so I don't see how your opinion means anything at all in this thread.

[elfkin477]

I can answer that by saying that, while Hell does not appear in the Bible, Matthew Chapter 7 certainly does. And I certainly have enough trouble keeping my mind on my own adherence to the Christian example to have enough time to worry about the adherence of some dude I only met once.

Very good point. Even if I believed that people when to hell for sinning and failure to repent, which I do not - like Metacom I was taught Universalism, specifically the theory that there is no hell for any but the Devil himself; those who do not go to heaven simply cease to exist without eternal torment- the bible tells us not to concern ourselves with judging others' souls since that's God's concern alone. I'm sure Bush has sins to repent for, as do we all, if he'd like to go to Heaven but I'll leave it at that.

[The Asbestos Mango]

This is your assertion, sure, and it seems to be a popular view. But can you show me any kind of proof that Bush's religious views are in this fringe element of methodism?

You can back this up, right?
Actually, no. I appear to be wrong. (http://web2.airmail.net/dsh440/bush_is_no.htm)

Bush is neither Fund'ist nor evangelical.

However, I think that the article I linked to does back what I think is the more important point, which is my belief that Bush's Christianity is largely feigned in order to gain political advantage by scoring points with the Christian Right. He does very carefully couch his speech in Fund'ist/Evangelical terms, even though he doesn't subscribe to that particular branch of Xian belief. He also does not attend church services regularly.

[Lissa]

This goes back to murder vs. kill. As Commandar-in-Chief he is taking a millitary action and gets a pass under killing is OK, a pass which every service man also gets.

I was unaware of the modern military exemption clause to the laws of God. It is good to hear that I can kill anyone I choose as long as the government says it is ok. I am a little concerned to hear, though, that every Nuremberg defense is supported by this assertion. But, that is the beauty of religion, it will justify anything you want.

[Oregon sunshine]

In my personal interpretation of Christianity, we are not allowed to judge anybody else, at all, ever. Period. Not that it never goes on of course, but based on what I believe, I try to avoid it if at all possible.

[Nava]

He is going to Hell only if he refuses to accept God's mercy. Same as anybody else.

God forgives everything. But you have to let Him (which includes repenting, i.e., realizing and accepting your failures/sins/faults). And no, the idea is not to say "bah, since God will forgive me anyway I'll go and kill me a few thousand people" - it's that if you went and killed a few thousand people thinking it was the right thing to do, you have all eternity to realize it was not the right thing at all (that's what us Catholics call Purgatory - the notion that you get a first judgment at your death, as in the saints that Revelations says are already in heaven before the final judgment, _and_ a review at the final judgment).

[FriarTed]

In my personal interpretation of Christianity, we are not allowed to judge anybody else, at all, ever. Period. Not that it never goes on of course, but based on what I believe, I try to avoid it if at all possible.

Hope ya don't get called for jury duty! *G*

Seriously, Jesus's "Judge Not" passage starts Matthew 7- in which Jesus then goes on to tell us to not cast pearls before swine or give holy things to dogs, to beware false prophets, to know people by their fruits. In other words, Jesus warns us against judging until we know how to judge rightly, which is what he spends the rest of the chapter teaching us.

[Mr. Moto]

Actually, no. I appear to be wrong. (http://web2.airmail.net/dsh440/bush_is_no.htm)

Bush is neither Fund'ist nor evangelical.

However, I think that the article I linked to does back what I think is the more important point, which is my belief that Bush's Christianity is largely feigned in order to gain political advantage by scoring points with the Christian Right. He does very carefully couch his speech in Fund'ist/Evangelical terms, even though he doesn't subscribe to that particular branch of Xian belief. He also does not attend church services regularly.

Thanks for looking into the matter more closely. I think it's a given that Bush is not a fundamentalist or an evangelical. I do not think it necessarily follows, though, that Bush's faith is less sincere or closely held by virtue of being more tolerant and ecumenical.

Paul Kengor (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/09/19/INGJ68P10N1.DTL) has looked into the matter in some depth, from a Christian viewpoint, and has this to say about President Bush's faith:

As someone who studies the faith of our presidents, I can say with complete confidence that I've never encountered a president with a faith as ecumenical as Bush's. His faith is so ecumenical, and so touchy-feely, that it is at times, frankly, kind of sappy.

...The Christian gospel -- which George W. Bush reads literally each morning and has read in its entirety numerous times -- says that of all the gifts God gave humanity, the greatest is love. The greatest commandments of the law, said Jesus Christ, are to love God and love thy neighbor. Christ essentially said that people will know that Christians are Christians by the love Christians show. Bush fully subscribes to this love theology. And it is that love-thy-neighbor mentality that makes Bush tolerant of other faiths.

The pious Protestant has, for instance, embraced Catholics and Jews. He has appointed devout Catholics to key faith-related positions, such as James Towey, a onetime attorney for Mother Teresa, as director of Bush's coveted Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. He has immense respect for Pope John Paul II, whom he has called a "great man" and a "hero of history." In his first year in office, Bush noted eight separate Jewish events, including Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah. On December 10, 2001, for the first time in American history, the president lit a Hanukkah menorah at the White House residence as a symbol that the White House is "the people's house" and that it belongs to people of all faiths.

...Bush believes that God wants all humans to be free, claiming: "In every human breast, God has implanted a principle which we call love of freedom." He does not exclude Muslims from that principle -- quite the contrary, as is evident by his incredibly ambitious and idealistic plans for a democratic Iraq, Afghanistan and Middle East generally.

...This will shock Bush's detractors, but it's true: In many ways, Bush's brand of Christianity is more liberal than it is conservative, though overall he is probably theologically moderate. Hatred of Bush has precluded his opponents' ability to make these crucial distinctions, and has led to the creation of numerous myths regarding his faith. To cite just one: No, he has never said that he believed God called on him to remove Saddam Hussein, and such was not one of his motivations for invading Iraq. To the contrary, he has cited his faith as a motivation for his $15 billion AIDS package, and for his massive expansion of Medicare benefits -- two moves that furthered the already huge U.S. budget deficit, but both actions that liberals ought to embrace. He says that his faith has taught him that hate crimes, defacing synagogues and racial prejudice are "evil."

This man's faith continues to be badly misinterpreted. Liberals can name a lot of reasons to vote against Bush, but his faith should not be one of them. It is unconventional only in its openness to other faiths. And, no, it is not a fundamentalist faith.

(Full disclaimer: Paul Kengor has been a personal friend of mine for many years.)

[Abbie Carmichael]

So, how will he be judged in the afterlife?

By the blood of Jesus.

[RedFury]

Does the following Bush comment strike anyone else as rather odd? Or is this par for the course in the religious mindset?

God instructed me to strike at Saddam (http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1147israel.html)

[John Mace]

Does the following Bush comment strike anyone else as rather odd? Or is this par for the course in the religious mindset?

God instructed me to strike at Saddam (http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1147israel.html)

Let's be clear on the source of this quote. From the Washington Post:

Imagine our surprise Wednesday to read in the Israeli paper Haaretz (online), that Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen, meeting recently with militants to enlist their support for a truce with Israel, said that, when they met in Aqaba, President Bush had told him this: " God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam...

<snip>

The Arabic-speaking colleague's translation, was this: "God inspired me to hit al Qaeda, and so I hit it. And I had the inspiration to hit Saddam, and so I hit him. Now I am determined to solve the Middle East problem if you help. Otherwise the elections will come and I will be wrapped up with them."

Even then, there's uncertainty. After all, this is Abu Mazen's account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic, then back into English.

There is more than enough room for different interpretations here.

[John Mace]

Oops. Forget to include the link. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?language=printer)

[RedFury]

Did Bush or any of his underlings ever deny the accuracy of said quote? I'd be interested in such a cite if available.

[John Mace]

RF: I don't know if any denial was ever issued. The WP article I linked to said calls to the WH were unreturned. While it's certainly possible that Bush did say it, or something like it, to Abas, I wouldn't use it as a debating point unless there's a legit news source reporting it as a straight up news story. I've only seen it in opinion pieces.

[RedFury]

Fair enough, John. However, there are plenty of Bush quotes on the record, that reveal the extraordinary claim of him having a direct line to "God."

Heaven Sent - Does God endorse George Bush ? (http://www.eurolegal.org/bbiraqwar.shtml)

Several sympathetic books about Bush and his faith make a big deal of his deciding to run for president after hearing a Texas minister named Rev. Mark Craig preach about how Moses had been called to service by God. Bush's mother reportedly turned to her son after the sermon and said, "He was talking to you."

Stephen Mansfield, author of The Faith of George W. Bush, goes on to say: "Not long after, Bush called James Robison (a prominent minister) and told him, 'I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for President.' " Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention heard Bush say something similar: "Among the things he said to us was: I believe that God wants me to be president."

After 9/11, the sense among his supporters that God had chosen him increased. "I think that God picked the right man at the right time for the right purpose," said popular Christian broadcaster Janet Parshall. Gen. William "Jerry" Boykin, who got in trouble for derogatory comments about Islam, argued that it must have been God who selected Bush, since a plurality of voters hadn't. "Why is this man in the White House? The majority of America did not vote for him. He's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this." (Boykin still has his job.)

Time magazine reported, "Privately, Bush talked of being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment." World Magazine, a conservative Christian publication, quoted White House official Tim Goeglein as saying, "I think President Bush is God's man at this hour, and I say this with a great sense of humility."...

It's hard to recall another instance of a presidential campaign so confidently promulgating the idea that its candidate had divine endorsement. The potentially dangerous implication is that since God put George W. Bush in the White House, opposing him is opposing Him. A person could get smited for that. (bolding mine)

And plenty have...

[John Mace]

Fair enough, John. However, there are plenty of Bush quotes on the record, that reveal the extraordinary claim of him having a direct line to "God."

True, but let's also note that the bolded part of your quote was someone's conjecture, and not something that Bush has ever said.

An the point of debate in this thread, none of those quotes bears on whether Christians should judge Bush as being headed to either heaven or hell.

[John Mace]

An the point of debate in this thread...

And to the point of debate in this thread...

[RedFury]

An the point of debate in this thread, none of those quotes bears on whether Christians should judge Bush as being headed to either heaven or hell.

::::Heathen takes cue, abandons thread::::

See ya in hell! ;)

[John Mace]

Atheist here. If there is a hell, I'm sure to be there, too. :)

[RedFury]

First round of piss-warm beer's on me! Then again, I could be lying...

[Imasquare]

So, how will he be judged in the afterlife?
No one can honestly say. It's entirely up to God, and not up to any of God's followers, Christian or otherwise.