"Immaculate conception" and "Virgin birth" are not the same *&^%$%&(*# thing [Archive]

jsgoddess

03-30-2005, 07:25 PM

This has gone beyond a peeve for me and well into rage-inducing territory.

The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary who was without Original Sin.

The Virgin Birth refers to the birth of Mary who was, obviously, a virgin.

I don't expect people to have a grasp of the finer points of RCC theology. I don't. But three seconds of Googling is all it takes to find the definitions of these phrases.

And you, you writers of "Lost," have no freaking excuse. GAH!

Revtim

03-30-2005, 07:31 PM

Don't even need Google, most standard dictionaries give the proper definitions.

Polycarp

03-30-2005, 07:36 PM

Well, erm, except for one minor flaw in your definition:

"Virgin Birth" refers to the birth of Jesus while his mother was still a virgin. (And remained perpetually so, according to the Orthodox and Catholics, but that's a distinct doctrine; the VB itself only requires that she have remained a virgin up until his birth.)

Note that the Immaculate Conception refers totally to the Catholic doctrine of original sin transmitted through conception; it's the presumption that Sts. Joachim and Anna conceived Mary through the normal process (and, one hopes, had fun doing it!).

Gorsnak

03-30-2005, 07:37 PM

Why do you think the writers of "Lost" don't understand the distinction? The line was delivered by a woman who was clearly batshit insane. People who are batshit insane shouldn't be expected to deliver accurate exposition of Catholic theology.

QuickSilver

03-30-2005, 07:39 PM

Or, it might just have been a case of parthenogenesis (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark.html).

monstro

03-30-2005, 07:45 PM

Not every Christian believes in the Immaculate Conception as conceptualized by the RCC. It's an interesting explanation for why Jesus was/is supposedly 100% completely blameless. But it's not the only explanation out there.

I was taught that the VB and IC were one in the same, and just found out the difference a year ago.

jsgoddess

03-30-2005, 08:04 PM

Well, erm, except for one minor flaw in your definition:

I hate Gaudere and that stinking law! HATE!

uglybeech

03-30-2005, 08:14 PM

Ok I'm a theological moron/illiterate. And frankly the Gauderian interference in the OP didn't help. Upshot - I have no clue what the freak you're talking about. I don't even see why it even matters to anyone what the distinction is. Isn't the one just the result of the other? Maybe if you could just restate the OP and maybe explain how Lost screwed it up it'd make sense.

Campion

03-30-2005, 08:59 PM

In RCC theology, everyone is born with Original Sin (thank you Adam, Eve, and the apple). But Mary, Jesus's mom, was born without Original Sin: that's the Immaculate Conception -- she was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul.

Then Mary gets pregnant with Jesus, but since she didn't have sex (thank you God and the Angel Gabriel), that's the Virgin Birth: Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.

So the one isn't the result of the other, really. Although the reason she was born without Original Sin was so that she could be Jesus's mom. So they're related, but not causally.

If that helps, I will finally have gotten a use for all that Catholic school and CCD. Other than learning all the words to "Do They Know It's Christmas?", which I don't really know why we had to learn those.

But jsgoddess, that makes me crazy too. And it's too early for Lost out here, so I don't know who messed that up. Yet.

Polycarp

03-30-2005, 09:03 PM

I hate Gaudere and that stinking law! HATE!

Well, "This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB." (from the BBQ Pit forum description)

uglybeech

03-30-2005, 09:27 PM

JRDelirious

03-30-2005, 09:30 PM

"Immaculate conception" and "Virgin birth" are not the same *&^%$%&(*# thing

The latter one, in fact, is not at all a *&^%$%&(*# thing, in fact it definitely precludes any *&^%$%&(*# going on...

Polycarp

03-30-2005, 09:36 PM

Oh. Really? Wow. Consider ignorance fought. Thanks, Campion. So now I know what everyone was learning in CCD.

So....if the immaculate conception is Mary's conception. Then what happened? Was she conceived like Jesus? Or did her parents have sex? Was it immaculate sex?

I feel like I'm asking about the birds and the bees here.
See above. St. Joachim laid St. Anne, in the normal manner (well, we assume; perhaps they did it on donkeyback or something!). However, according to Catholic theology, in order to provide a pristine vessel in which the Christ might be conceived and born, by special intervention of the Holy Spirit the taint of original sin was kept away from the conceptus that would grow up to become the Blessed Virgin Mary.

That's the Immaculate Conception. And it's exclusively a Catholic doctrine.

The Virgin Birth, on the other hand, is based in the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, both of which say that Joseph and Mary did not get it on, and that Mary conceived "being overshadowed by the power of the Holy Spirit." It's a standard belief held to by almost all major denominations, Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, or Protestant. (Although many individual Christians don't necessarily buy it.)

Connected with this is the idea that Mary never had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants.

Sample_the_Dog

03-30-2005, 09:41 PM

Anyone care to start a tangent about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute?

asterion

03-30-2005, 10:02 PM

Anyone care to start a tangent about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute?

No, but I'm still trying to come up with a football joke.

Sublight

03-30-2005, 10:14 PM

See above. St. Joachim laid St. Anne, in the normal manner (well, we assume; perhaps they did it on donkeyback or something!).
Wait, so Mary's parents are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort?

uglybeech

03-30-2005, 10:21 PM

And thank you, Polycarp.

It's always fun to learn things you didn't know you didn't know.

uglybeech

03-30-2005, 10:23 PM

Wait, so Mary's parents are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort?

Immaculate sex is not enough for you? I'd like to see you try it.

duffer

03-30-2005, 10:24 PM

Wait, so Mary's parents are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort?

Well, they were the parents of The Blessed Virgin and all. Being the grandparents of the Savior help in the election.

Polycarp

03-30-2005, 10:29 PM

Well, they were the parents of The Blessed Virgin and all. Being the grandparents of the Savior help in the election.
sings "It's a Family Affair" ;)

Sublight

03-30-2005, 10:52 PM

Wow, so does this cause any tension or resentment among the other saints? I mean, if you spent your life abstaining from sex, giving away all your possessions, scourging your flesh and healing the sick with the power of your touch until your death by slow torture, wouldn't you be a bit pissed to see some ordinary schlubs who did jack shit living the good afterlife just because of family connections?

duffer

03-30-2005, 11:04 PM

Cunctator

03-30-2005, 11:20 PM

Ok I'm a theological moron/illiterate. And frankly the Gauderian interference in the OP didn't help. Upshot - I have no clue what the freak you're talking about. I don't even see why it even matters to anyone what the distinction is.

It matters in the sense that immaculate conception is a theological term with a very precise meaning. When it's misused (as it very often is) it immediately undermines the credibility of the one who misused it.

That's the Immaculate Conception. And it's exclusively a Catholic doctrine.
I know many "high" Anglicans who also believe this doctrine.

Dancer_Flight

03-30-2005, 11:57 PM

What's the old joke? Oh yeah.

"Can you imagine being Jesus' brother? The pressure of being compared to Him?!?"

I think James did alright....

-DF

FinnAgain

03-31-2005, 12:21 AM

Just curious, since I can't find it via my google fu, but does anybody know who first said
"Immaculate conception maculates conception."
?

Weaver of Nightmares

03-31-2005, 04:46 AM

Connected with this is the idea that Mary never had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants.
Wouldn't say so. Without Original Sin equals being without a functional sex-drive? Not likely. Joseph most likely would have had one :p

tdn

03-31-2005, 12:10 PM

A few years ago snopes did a page on this. You would not believe the hate mail he received for it. The average response was along the lines of

YOU,,,,, R GOING TOO HEL!,,,, yOO SAY THEIRS KNOW VIRGIN BERTH BUT!!!!!!!! YOU BETTOR BELEEV THAT JESUS IS yUOR LORD!!!!!!! AND MASTR,,,,, BETTOR START PRAYING NOW U HETHUN,,,,,, AND EXCEPT JESUS IN TO YOR SOLE BE4 U BURN FOREVAR!!!!!!!!!!!

manhattan

03-31-2005, 12:18 PM

No, but I'm still trying to come up with a football joke.That was my first thought. "Also, the immaculate reception was not a Hail Mary."

Colibri

03-31-2005, 02:02 PM

Connected with this is the idea that Mary never had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants.

And requiring some fancy foot-stepping around the mention of Jesus' brothers and sisters in the New Testament. (Matthew 13:54-58, John 2:11-12, John 7:3-5, etc.)

Polycarp

03-31-2005, 03:11 PM

That was my first thought. "Also, the immaculate reception was not a Hail Mary."

C'mon, Manny, the whole Virgin Birth idea is based on the reported fact that St. Joseph never completed a pass!

Iacob_Matthew

03-31-2005, 06:52 PM

So....if the immaculate conception is Mary's conception. Then what happened? Was she conceived like Jesus? Or did her parents have sex? Was it immaculate sex?
Is it still a sin if you lubricate with Chrism?

Faruiza

03-31-2005, 07:06 PM

"Can you imagine being Jesus' brother? The pressure of being compared to Him?!?"[/QUOTE]

Well, somebody wrote a song about it. Would you like to hear it? Here it go! (http://arrogant-worms.lyrics-songs.com/lyrics/2237/)

:p

manhattan

04-01-2005, 08:16 AM

C'mon, Manny, the whole Virgin Birth idea is based on the reported fact that St. Joseph never completed a pass!Well, sure. It would be another almost 2000 years before the Lord started helping people complete passes (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/9) and even then he didn't waste the miracle on something as pedestrian as sex. :)

JRDelirious

04-03-2005, 12:15 PM

Wouldn't say so. Without Original Sin equals being without a functional sex-drive?
Nobody says that. Just (some specific churches) that she is aeiparthenos, "ever-virgin". The Churches that teach that teach that the "brothers" mentioned in the Gospel are close kin (cousins) foster-raised in the same household, or pre-Mary children of Joseph.

Weaver of Nightmares

04-03-2005, 12:40 PM

Nobody says that. Just (some specific churches) that she is aeiparthenos, "ever-virgin". The Churches that teach that teach that the "brothers" mentioned in the Gospel are close kin (cousins) foster-raised in the same household, or pre-Mary children of Joseph.
Sorry, I could have been clearer. I didn't mean that anybody here said that. Just that I don't agree with the Church on that. (For the record, I'm not Catholic, so I doubt the Church'd be impressed :p)

Though I have the feeling that the RCC is not the only one that thinks that way about Mary. I'm fairly certain my SO does, and he's Protestant.

Polycarp

04-03-2005, 12:54 PM

Just for the record, when I was commenting on "who believes X" about the different doctrines above, I was referring to churches' official statements of belief, not to what Joe Catholic, Pete Protestant, or Oleg Orthodox might happen to themselves believe.

I.e., Catholicism teaches the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity; Lutheranism does not. But it doesn't automatically mean that Officer O'Malley is convinced of them and Sven Svensson is not.

JRDelirious

04-03-2005, 11:06 PM

...and as I have mentioned in some prior threads, my personal heresy on this issue goes along the lines of, since (a) the condition of aeiparthenos is taught to mean that through miraculous workings, neither conception, nor pregancy, nor even labor and delivery itself affected her virginal state; (b) it is also taught that "virginity"is not just a physical, but a mental/spiritual state of being, i.e. crudely put, you can be "virginal" w/o a hymen and a slut with one; (c) Joseph and Mary were lawfully wedded spouses therefore carnal contact between them would not only be unsinful, but would actually be a holy act; then (D)(the Delirious Heresy) it would be a cakewalk for God to have Mary miraculously remain "virginal" in the transcendent sense, and unsullied even through a normal marital life with Joseph.

BTW, in more mundane terms: The Church does indeed insist very vehemently is that there is NOBODY who can claim direct or even close-to-it blood-descent from the Joseph/Mary/Jesus family unit (vide, a particular best-selling recent novel); that particular (alleged) Davidic bloodline would have dead-ended c. 30AD, according to the RCC. Think about it, through most of the last 2K years, anyone who could reasonably claim such descent would "reasonably" be a pretender to Absolute King of All Humanity, and we can't have that, can we...?

Lissla Lissar

04-03-2005, 11:30 PM

[Totally irrelevant hijack. Don't kill me]
Did you know that there's a book called The Va Vinci Cod coming out? It's about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am not making this up.

I'm sorry. I had to tell somebody.

[end horrendous hijack]

According to the Catechism, Mary's Immaculate Conception, and therefore sinlessness, was necessary for her to assent to God's will. She was borne by grace and preserved from sin so that she was able to give her whole self freely. Section 494, Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Shirley Ujest

04-04-2005, 12:12 AM

[Totally irrelevant hijack. Don't kill me]
Did you know that there's a book called The Va Vinci Cod coming out? It's about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am not making this up.

Lissa. I mean this in the most dopely manner. You are my new bestest friend.

On to the Hijack:

Dial F for Fish.

Polycarp

04-04-2005, 12:15 AM

[Totally irrelevant hijack. Don't kill me]
Did you know that there's a book called The Va Vinci Cod coming out? It's about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am not making this up.

It's not my plaice to say this, but anyone who would perpetrate that should look to saving his sole.

gigi

04-04-2005, 12:03 PM

I hate to carp on this, but people are always trying to make money off a trend with these crappie parody products.

Faruiza

04-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Usually, you cats are pretty funny, but I'm not taking the bait on this one. I'll just perch over here.

Sample_the_Dog

04-04-2005, 08:38 PM

I hate to interrupt a grapeworthy bad pun run, but...

Is anybody taking the time to show a little empathy for Mary here?

I mean, she gets the burden of delivering the Son of God, and what does she get? Not so much as a kiss, thank you very much!

At least Zeus had the decency to offer his concubines a little godly nookie, even if it did take some kinky shapes.

Shadow, my ass! Ever make love to a shadow? Fun it ain't!

Lissla Lissar

04-04-2005, 10:29 PM

Well, she did get crowned Queen of Heaven and all. I mean, it isn't sex, but at least it's something.

I'm trying to work something up with 'halibut' and 'grouper', but it isn't working.

FinnAgain

04-05-2005, 12:26 AM

I'm trying to work something up with 'halibut' and 'grouper', but it isn't working.

Don't worry, I'm sure your mental block is just a fluke.

danceswithcats

04-05-2005, 01:10 AM

Let's tuna our attention back to the OP, lest this thread flounder further. For the dopers out there who believe that Mary was an "perpetual virgin", that she was conceived of sinless stock herself, may I ask, CITE!?

Direct me to some text between Genesis and Revelation which supports those allegations, and I'll be happy to read, as I may have missed something over the years. In advance-don't dismiss with "It's a mystery." It's time to lay your cods on the table or clam up. ;)

Lissla Lissar

04-05-2005, 10:08 AM

Are you assuming Sola Scriptura there, dances? :D Crabby Prostestants. Always whaling on tradition. Even worse than those halibut-eaters.

Who don't believe in cod.

Left Hand of Dorkness

04-05-2005, 10:30 AM

See above. St. Joachim laid St. Anne, in the normal manner (well, we assume; perhaps they did it on donkeyback or something!).

I've heard of people taking it in the ass, but never on.

If Mary was without Original Sin, does that mean she didn't know the difference between good and evil? Does it mean that she was deprived of her free will by God?

If not, then why doesn't God make all of us without original sin? If it's good enough for his kid's mom, why ain't it good eough for everyone else?

Daniel