JFK jr's Plane is Missing! [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

07-17-1999, 01:49 PM

I will cry for John Jr., and I'm not ashamed to tell you that. I cried for Jack in '63 when he was killed -- he was our President, our first Irish Catholic president -- and he was family. I cried for Bobby in '68. I mourned Jackie, and Michael.

That family is not perfect, they are human just like every person posting to this board is. They have committed their sins; who among us is without sin, that we can cast stones? They have tried to give something back to this country.

Like it or not, John Jr. is a part of this country's history. He assumed that unwilling position no later than his third birthday, when he stood and saluted as his father's funeral cortege went by. I was six years old, and I remember that day as if it were yesterday.

Begrudge that family nothing; they have paid a high price to be what, who, and where they are.

So yes, I will cry, and I will pray for John Jr., and his wife, and sister in law. And perhaps most for Rory, whose father was murdered before she was born, and for whom this was supposed to be a day of joy.

-Melin
(no sig; silence)

07-17-1999, 05:58 PM

Three years ago TODAY flight 800 TWA went down!

Eerie coincidence.

07-17-1999, 06:40 PM

I certainly feel sorrow for the family, but the news coverage is way out of proportion for the publisher of a moderately successful magazine.

Also, I can't help but wonder how much of this nation's search and rescue resources would be devoted to finding someone like me, the son of a truck driver.

07-17-1999, 07:03 PM

Also, I can't help but wonder how much of this nation's search and rescue resources would be devoted to finding someone like me, the son of a truck driver.

Probably more than you think. They'd have choppers and Coasties out for you, too, if you went down in a small plane with a couple of other people on board. And I've seen searches go for days in the mountains looking for "just plain joe." Admittedly you probably wouldn't get national all-day news coverage for it. Now tell me, would anybody out there change places with John Jr., and the crazy life he's had, so that you too could get that news coverage?

And don't pretend to be naive. He's not getting that coverage because he publishes a magazine, he's getting it because he's the only son of an assassinated president.

-Melin (Glad *I* didn't marry in to that family!)

07-17-1999, 08:32 PM

DIANA SAW JFK Jr. AS ROLE MODEL

Saturday, July 17, 1999; 5:25 p.m. EDT

NEW YORK (AP) -- Princess Diana saw John F. Kennedy Jr. as a role model for her son, Prince William, especially in handling of the news media.

07-17-1999, 08:58 PM

PapaBear:how much of this nation's search and rescue resources would be devoted to finding someone like me,
Well, most of the searches on Lake Erie last, at minimum, 36-48 hours and it is quite a bit smoother than Long Island Sound (although it's more dangerous than the ocean in most violent storms). Those are winter times when it is a reasonable guess that anyone who went into the water died in 20 minutes (November) or 10 minutes (February). In the summer, I have seen searches go for a week depending on the circumstances. That includes at least two and sometimes three USCG stations, at least two police departments, and various other volunteer outfits.

Egospark:Will this mindless pandering to the wealthy never cease? Can we survive this turn of event?This thought came up on the AOL/SDMB with a certain regularity. My thoughts then were:
««Subject: Re: Phil Hartman, Princess Di & Joe The Butcher

{{What makes this a bigger tragedy when one of these "famous" entertainers/people die as
opposed to the guy who cuts your lawn, the nice hairdresser that styles your hair.....or even "Joe" the butcher down the street? }} -- Chaz L4

I don't think it is a bigger tragedy. However, lots of people knew Phil Hartman by his work. When JPetralia asked about Andy Kaufman, lots of members of this MB were reminded of ways in which he entertained them.
Two weeks ago this Monday, my I.T. Director dropped dead of an apparent heart attack. Good family man, generous boss, hard worker, loyal employee, only 56. Now if I post his death and the particulars, here, how are you supposed to respond? You can hardly relate to him. If you have read my posts long enough to form an impression of me, you might be able to offer condolences if I announced that my wife/mother/child died. But how do you respond to
the news that a business man with a good income and grown kids has died suddenly when you can only know what I post about him?
We know about celebrities. We have opinions about their works (if any) and their lives. And in a setting such as a cafeteria or an MB, we can express our reactions in ways that other people around us can relate to because we all shared, to some extent, the same "relationship" (however anonymous) to the celebrity.
I do not think that celebrities are more important, but it is easier to interact with people regarding any loss when the people with whom you interact share something *with you* regarding that loss. The very act of celebrity simply places some people into a realm where far more people can react together.»»

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Tom~

07-17-1999, 09:46 PM

Tom'n'Deb But then you're lumping the rest of the universe with yourself. It doesn't hold. I didn't much care if JFK jr was alive; his death is equally meaningless to me. I understand he has a minor role in the memory of a select few. This a plane crash of limited news being made into a NATION IN MOURNING tv special.

Already bizzare statements like "three years ago TODAY" flight TWA 800 went down in the same waters. Eerie coincidence." Nah, an eerie coincidence would have been Jon-Jon getting his head blown off in Dallas. But that still would not have necessarily changed anything in the world.

It's not the need for celebrities I find revolting so much as the need for dead celebrities. I think anyone who is honestly moved to tears should shed them. I think anyone who is moved to tears so they can call into Channel 3 Action News and "remember JFK jr" should place a black wreath over their tv set and jump off a tall building.

07-17-1999, 10:37 PM

Another one bites the dust.

07-17-1999, 11:23 PM

Egospark, I ment it as another AIRPLANE accident occuring on the same day. Not as a somehing spooky happening with the Kennedy tribe.

But I gues bad things happen everyday and we should react as thus.
"Oh look that Kennedy boy died; I wonder how the Yankees did today."

My second intended point was that now and forever (if JFK Jr. is dead) July 17th will be "Kennedy-Died-in-a-Plane-Accident Day" rather than "TWA-800-Went-Down Day."

But I guess you'd suggest to people who whatched over that accident to, as you so eloquently said it, "place a black wreath over their tv set and jump off a tall building."

since people die everyday in so many extraordinary ordinary ways.

07-17-1999, 11:28 PM

EgosparkThis a plane crash of limited news being made into a NATION IN MOURNING tv special. Ahh, the advantages of not owning a functional television.

I was not aware that special coverage was being planned. I generally agree that when the media decides to make an event of it, it is usually overblown. JFK jr's death will bother me no more than Di's or Phil Hartmann's or any other celebrity (i.e., not at all). My comment was generally on the lines of people challenging others who are upset by the deaths of celebrities. If someone is upset at a stranger's death, I think the reason is the one I gave. When TV turns it into an event, they are simply siezing on the expected profits that they can garner from advertisers by cashing in on a large number of people grieving. I don't think that TV is particularly noble in this case, but I don't find TV producers particularly noble.

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Tom~

07-17-1999, 11:54 PM

Personally, I found Phil Hartman's death much more tragic. I felt much closer to Phil Hartman because he was very very funny. Hartman accomplished something on his own. His funeral wasn't televised (wanna take bets on whether JFK, Jr.'s will be?) and he wasn't cannonized.

What is (was) JonJon famous for? Being the son of JFK and publishing a magazine. That's about half a step removed from Steve Forbes. What did he do for himself? He used his family's money (of dubious origins) to start his magazine. I just don't see it.

It strikes me as very similar to Princess Di. An attractive famous person is suddenly struck dead. Ohhh, let us quickly proclaim them a saint and devote an issue of People magazine to them.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't exult in JFK, Jr.'s death and I didn't in Di's. It's tragic whenver people that young die suddenly. I just think our society confuses fame with virtue, and mourns the famous instead of the good.

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President of the Vernon Dent fan club.

07-18-1999, 12:09 AM

Sure the rich and famous get more attention.
That's kinda half of being rich and famous,
isn't it? That and politics aside, ya gotta admit that family has had some tough luck. I grieve not so much for them as being reminded
of all the folks who suffer more than their share of tragedies.

07-18-1999, 01:02 AM

Just caught a little of the coverage this afternoon - all I could think was the Coast Guard was being pretty gracious about the lack of a flight plan - kept waiting for someone to say *Of course, if we had a flight plan, we could search more effectively*

07-18-1999, 02:55 AM

I agree about Phil Hartman. Those of us who really enjoyed and appreciated his work had an actual relationship of sorts with him; without knowing him at all he made us feel something, he made us laugh, which is one of the best things in life. So when he was gone, it was very sad.

JFK, Jr. may affect some people the same way, after a fashion. There's no question that he made some women (and no doubt some men) FEEL something... he was stunningly good-looking. But as for touching our lives? Not.

I have figured out the Kennedy thing, though. As I mentioned earlier, it was Rose. She managed to live so long by borrowing against the lifetimes of her children and grandchildren. It was her pact with Satan.

(Flame away!)

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-18-1999, 09:34 AM

And what the hell sort of pact with Satan does Ted have? He'll probably live to be 120.

07-18-1999, 11:28 AM

Well...as we all feel bad about the poor Kenndys it was pointed that Jon-Jon's wife's family has lost two daughters and there hasn't been a word said about them. In rightous anger, I'm declaring today a special day of mourning for female victims of Kenndy stupidity. Of course if I can't get any tv crews here, I'll call it off.

07-18-1999, 11:31 AM

Jon-Jon's wife's family has lost two daughters and there hasn't been a word said about them.

Wrong. The news coverage I've seen has talked quite a bit about Carolyn and Lauren Bessett and their families, and expressed sympathy to that family as well.

And the searchers have said that it might have been easier if a flight plan had been filed -- but since they have the radar blips they are pretty sure they know about when and where the plane went down. They've also commented that there was no requirement to file a flight plan.

-Melin

07-18-1999, 03:10 PM

Frankd6 and Stoidela,very funny!People magazines salutes celebrities who have a pact with satan:next up:rosanne!

07-18-1999, 04:01 PM

[[Personally, I found Phil Hartman's death much more tragic. I felt much closer to Phil Hartman because he was very very funny. Hartman accomplished something on his own. ]]

"Contingency fee? No, money down!"

[[His funeral wasn't televised (wanna take bets on whether JFK, Jr.'s will be?) and he wasn't cannonized.]]

There is little doubt that John junior would not have wanted that.

[[What is (was) JonJon famous for? Being the son of JFK and publishing a magazine. That's about half a step removed from Steve Forbes. What did he do for himself? He used his family's money (of dubious origins) to start his magazine. I just don't see it.]]

He is a person who became famous for being where he was when he was. The image of that little boy saluting as his father's casket rolled by (on, IIRC, his birthday, no less) was an incredibly moving moment, and he became a part of our national consciousness.

07-18-1999, 05:12 PM

Maybe next time people will think twice about taking a frigging plane to a place you can quite readily drive to from where you are.

And, quite likely, JFK Jr. saluting his father's casket was a moment prompted by his mother; but far be it from me to criticize people for being taken in by ersatz sentimentality.

07-18-1999, 05:23 PM

OOOPS! I stand corrected, Melin I must have missed the loving tribute for the the women. Was it before or after the tums commerical?

I've just learned that Jon-Jon was "the best and brightest of his generation" -- that lets me off the hook and I can stand under his mighty shadow forever. What exactly did he do anyway?

You think I should show more compassion? Hey, I'm no Jon-Jon Kennedy!

I just really hope that Elton John wasn't a close personal friend. Not sure if I can stand another version of Candle in the Wind. The paper here notes he was "the crown prince of America." Maybe the Franklin Mint plate will be ready for Christmas. I can hardly wait.

07-18-1999, 07:11 PM

I just hope to God they don't name a Beanie Baby after him.

07-18-1999, 07:34 PM

As far as the Kennedys go, I generally do not have very much positive to say about them. History has already been very unkind to the Kennedy clan. There is much to be critical about, especially from someone with my political leanings.

That being said, I can't help but have a gut level reaction, similar to Melin's.

I was born in 1959. JFK was the first president I ever knew. My earliest clear childhood memories are of JFK's assasisnation, and the ensueing funeral. It left a very deep impression on me as a child.

My father deeply admired and supported JFK. I've never really talked to him about how JFK's death affected him, but I know that he decorated our home with two artifacts directly linked to JFK's death. One was a reproduction of a political cartoon known as the "Grieving Lincoln," a moving renderning of the Lincoln memorial, but with Abe weeping with his head in his hands. He had that framed and hung in our den.

The other was a recreation of the picture of JKF jr. saluting his father's casket as an oil painting. This was hung in the bedroom I shared with my brothers. It hung there for the next 20 or so years while I lived at home, and stayed in that same room.

That haunting image was literally an icon of my childhood.

So regardless of how I feel about the Kennedys socially, politically, or morally, there is some deep resonation that the boy in the picture that hung in my room is gone. Its hard to put into words what that picture represents for me, or my father, or my family, but its a connection to my past that is almost cultural. How many people who lived at that time don't get into conversations about what they were doing when they heard that JFK had been shot?

Excuse me for blithering. But this is an event that connects me to my past in a very profound way. I could give a rat's behind about all the other trappings. But every night as I went to sleep, I saw that picture of Jon-jon saluting. His death (for it is most likely that indeed he is dead) feels like it shuts a door in my life.

It really doesn't make sense. But that's how I feel.

SoxFan59

07-18-1999, 08:19 PM

JFK Jr. was by all accounts an OK guy who lived a life of unavoidable celebrity and handled it a bit better than various uncles, aunts and cousins.

His major life contributions were some People material and George. But those are naturally amplified by his inherited place in the dogpile. While I generally fall on a different spot on the political compass than Kennedys (and experience a visceral reaction to some of them), I'll give him credit for being a class act (and, if you don't pay much attention to politics you may not realize that he'd done a little bit of subtle wriggling away from the clan's knee-jerk left-wing approach to life).

Nevertheless, it being close to two days now since the crash, I think (and would hope I'm wrong) that it is safe to say he's dead and gone.

Observations:

Yes, it must have been a terribly slow news day. Even taking into consideration his unique celebrity, maybe fifteen minutes of national news and a hastily cobbled together hour special; but all day and nothing else? Hell, they returned to regular programming, with bulletins galore of course, when Reagan was shot.

No, it won't affect my life or the lives of those around me at all. Just as all the actors in my life successfully missed the general keening and wailing about Dianna, this too shall pass (quickly).

Now, for those in the know who want to stay abreast of things, I can tell you that they're already working the case over at alt.conspiracy.jfk. One poster's got it pegged to an altitude-triggered bomb, while another is working the DEA angle (Gee, you think this board is active; I went to look back at somebody's rant on that newsgroup about some nearby particle accelerator blowing the plane up (?) and the chain, since the time I started typing this, had pushed that post too many scrolls away to screw with). I haven't yet seen one pushing the Hillary blows away the competition for NY Senator thing yet, but I'm sure some close observer will bring that to light.

Yeah, it's an unfortunate thing - apparent nice guy celebrity and bride and sis-in-law die young. And his persona was such that there's a national reverberation.

But it's not a National Tragedy.

07-18-1999, 08:26 PM

[[And, quite likely, JFK Jr. saluting his father's casket was a moment prompted by his mother; but far be it from me to criticize people for being taken in by ersatz sentimentality.]] PLD

Ersatz? Hardly. He was a three year old, so obviously he was told to salute. But it was still a moving image and a tragic situation for the poor little guy and his mother.

07-18-1999, 10:30 PM

Friend of mine keeps coming back to Carolyn's parents, and how deeply angry they must certainly be. She speculates, and she probably has it right, that there was must discussion and concern about John's piloting ability. Now to have lost 2 out of 3 of their children in one completely unnecessary accident must be driving them mad with grief and rage. (And by unnecessary, I am referring to the fact that from what I've read, John's choice to fly was, at best, ill-conceived. It seems there were many factors that should have made him think three times about making that flight. Macho confidence and a daredevil attitude killed them.)

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-19-1999, 08:32 AM

Would the press have wasted all that air time reporting nothing (and you all have to admit that very little news was reported) if David Eisenhower, Lynda Bird Johnson, Julie Nixon, Amy Carter, or Ron Reagan had been reported missing?

07-19-1999, 09:15 AM

If you take out all the JFK Jr. is famous, "Crown Prince of America" BS, the fact of the matter is that a guy who was a minimally experienced pilot got in over his head and murdered two people. I have read that two pilots from the same airport that JFK Jr. took off from, refused to make the same trip, the same night, due to poor flying conditions and both of these individuals had much more flying experience than JFK Jr.

Now I’m not saying that JFK Jr. held a gun to the heads of those two sisters and ordered them on that plane, but when I take in everything that I have heard, it sounds like a total error in judgment by JFK Jr. that got three people killed.

Hopefully, improved private pilot airplane safety will be the ‘take home’ that people get from this unnecessary loss of human life, but no matter what, I still have a bad taste in my mouth knowing that this should not have happened and barring airplane malfunction, it was JFK Jr.’s fault.

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The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it.
George Bernard Shaw

07-19-1999, 09:33 AM

Maybe next time people will think twice about taking a frigging plane to a place you can quite readily drive to from where you are.
No. It will make me think to check the weather more, brush up on my IFR skills, perhaps file a flight plan if VFR to save search efforts and enhance survival chances. Flying is as safe as the PIC makes it, I hope that this does not lead to more knee jerk regulations. IFR required at night, mandatory VFR flight plans (shudder) etc.

Oblio

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A point in every direction is like no point at all

07-19-1999, 03:18 PM

And, quite likely, JFK Jr. saluting his father's casket was a moment prompted by his mother; but far be it from me to criticize people for being taken in by ersatz sentimentality.

The Secret Service agent charged with protecting JFK Jr. in the White House is now living in Columbus, and as of late has been telling stories about him to the news. One was about the salute. Turns out that a few hours before the funeral, the man was basically babysitting Jon-jon so that Jackie could have an hour or two to break down before she had to be back together for the funeral. They were in some room in the White House, and an Army Captain walked by. Jon-jon gave the Captain a salute, but with the left hand. The agent said "That's a wonderful way to show respect, but to do it properly, you have to do it with the other hand." The agent showed Jon-jon how to salute properly, and forgot about the incident.

Then came the funeral. As the casket went by, Jackie supposedly leaned down and told Jon-jon to say goodbye to his father, and he surprised everyone with the salute that the agent taught him. The agent was there, and during the interview he said that he wept like a baby when he saw Jon-jon's salute.

I'm not sure if this is a true story, or if this old man was exaggerating out of sentimentality. It's still an excellent story.

He also told another one about how a day or so after JFK was murdered, he was lifting Jon-jon up so he could drink at a water fountain, and a photographer came up and tried to take a picture. Jon-jon just looked at the photographer and said "Why are you taking my picture? My daddy just died." That one brought the photographer to tears.

07-19-1999, 03:47 PM

"Why are you taking my picture? My daddy just died."

And I suppose in a nutshell, that's why so much of America cares. And it's probably generational. Those of us who remember are crying not so much for the 38 year old man, but for our memories of the little boy whose daddy's death touched all of us. "What were you doing when you heard about JFK?" Anybody in this country over the age of five at the time can probably answer that question without thinking too hard about it. I was six, and I sure can.

-Melin

07-19-1999, 03:48 PM

Three years ago TODAY flight 800 TWA went down! Eerie coincidence.

Is it??? Both planes had passed by Long Island and a surface-air-missile would obliterate a Piper so that finding any big pieces would be a futile effort. It would explain alot.

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Jim Petty
A Snappy message should appear here

07-19-1999, 04:42 PM

Fresh from hell, the REAL reason teh KEnnedies are dying off: Ted Kennedy sold the lives of his family to the devil after Chappaquidick (sp?) In return, he will live as long as other Kennedy's keep getting offed.

Honestly, it is OK to be sad for anyone dying. However, the disgusting thing about the mourning are all of the people fabricating crocodile tears to prove that theyt are compassionate and all of the people joining in on the sentimentality to make money. Elton John comes to mind.

In the days to come the sscreeen will be full of actors, actresses and politicians dabbing a tear and sharing heartwarming stories.

Sometimes life imitates the movie "Heathers"

07-19-1999, 05:04 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why are you taking my picture? My daddy just died."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I suppose in a nutshell, that's why so much of America cares. And it's probably generational. Those of us who remember are crying not so much for the 38 year old man, but for our memories of the little boy whose daddy's death touched all of us. "What were you doing when you heard about JFK?" Anybody in this country over the age of five at the time can probably answer that question without thinking too hard about it. I was six, and I sure can.

-Melin>>>>>>

Agreed, Melin. I was only a year older than jon-jon, and, as my earlier post stated, images of him saluting his father's casket were part of my life for as long as I lived with my parents.

I believe it is generational. A friend of mine and i were talking about only people who lived at that time refer to JFK jr as "jon-jon."

i was only 4 years old at the time, but I have some very vivid memories. It was an event that shaped the psyche of our nation, like Pearl Harbor and the Moon Landing did. I will not weep for JFK jr, but I am affected by his passing in a deep way that the passing of other famous people, some of whom I deeply care for and respect, would not.

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SoxFan59
"Its fiction, but all the facts are true!"

07-19-1999, 06:32 PM

Stoidella mentioned the Bessett's. I thought about the parents, too, but a friend of mine told me they were both dead already. If this is true, what a horror this must be for the remaining Bessett sister. Does anyone have the facts on the parents?

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

07-19-1999, 06:41 PM

As I understand it the Bessette parents are living, but divorced. I think they both have remarried; I'm certain the mother has.

-Melin

07-19-1999, 07:03 PM

tv sucks, newspapers suck, reporters suck, endless coverage of water and clouds on the east coast sucks, Dan Blather sucks, suck suck suck suck.... did I mention tv sucks?

Kennedy had it coming, if he had kids they'd die too when they reach 40.

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"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."
-- Calvin and Hobbes

07-19-1999, 08:28 PM

What a despicable thing to say. What a lowlife you must be. What did John Jr. ever do to "deserve" to die -- and for his never-to-be-born children to die -- before the age of 40?

You are sick and twisted. Fortunately John Jr. is beyond your reach.

-Melin

07-19-1999, 10:44 PM

Having grown up in a family that constantly flew in small planes from one destination to another, I'm perfectly aware that pilot error is a frequent cause of plane crashes, and am also aware how difficult it is to differentiate between the sky and the sea when an experienced pilot is flying.

However, to say that due to his inexperience as a pilot, this makes John F. Kennedy, Jr. a murderer of his wife and sister-in-law is assinine.

Pilot error equals human error. There's plenty of that going around.

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"There will always be somebody who's never read a book who'll know twice what you know." - D.Duchovny

07-20-1999, 09:36 AM

Mazey: "Pilot error equals human error. There's plenty of that going around"

Talk about unadulterated asinine bullshit. As a pilot and as a son who grew up around a family and a community of pilots, I have had one thing and one thing only beat into my head regarding pilot safety, "You fuck up in a plane, you die, you fuck up in a plane with passengers, you murder them"

Taking yourself and two others in a flight where flight conditions were minimally suspect and infringing on night flying when you are a inexperienced pilot, with no instrument certification is a risk, no matter what the media will do to sugar coat JFK Jr.’s error in judgment. Now if he was the only person in the plane, it would be sad, but nevertheless a self-inflicting tragedy. However, the fact that there were two others on that plane, and they placed their trust and lives in his "implied" statements of ability, competency and decision making, makes his poor judgment, in my opinion an act of murder.

Now, I do not for one moment believe that he climbed into that plane for some crazy suicide mission, but as a pilot you take the lives of the people into your hands every time you have passengers in your plane, and if you let them down due to pilot error, you murder them. I can understand a non-pilot’s view that the prior statement is harsh and ridiculous, but I (and I hope you as well) would not fly with some one who does not have the same view that has been demanded of me.

Additionally, to say ‘that pilot error equals human error’ wreaks of a lack of personal accountability for your decisions, especially significant ones. Human error is cutting someone off with your shopping cart at the grocery store, forgetting to tell your wife that her mother called two days ago, booting a routine pop fly in right field. Human error is a mistake, where the consequences are impactful, but not dire or grave and should be forgiven with a minimal sincere apology. One of the major problems in this country (US) is our unbelievable ability to treat potentially life-shattering lapses in judgment as "human error", or as a "mistake" and then forgive these mistakes as easily as we take out the weekly trash. Where is the personal accountability? When and where are we going to call people on what they are and what they have done, without worrying about how favorably they will be remembered.

Example: Two years ago, one of my ex-co-workers got drunk and offered his new hire a ride home from a work/social function, telling him that this would give them a "good chance to bond". This drunk bastard then (at 80 mph) drove into a bridge support, killing himself and the new hire. Fast forward two weeks and I am asked by a co-worker if I would like to contribute money to fund a memorial in this SOB’s name. "Sure" I reply, "if the money will go to drunk driving awareness." "Oh no, we don’t wont people to think of Steve as a drunk driver" the co-worker replied.

Why not, he did it didn't he? If we won’t something good to come from this mess, the media should totally play up the fact that this was a PREVENTABLE tragedy, JFK Jr. fucked up, and all pilots and people thinking of getting their license should understand that this is not a hobby/game, it is a skill that take hundreds of hours of practice, preparation and dedication and that crashing your plane with two people in into the ocean it is not "human error" it is much, much more with deadly consequences.

07-20-1999, 09:59 AM

and all pilots and people thinking of getting their license should understand that this is not a hobby/game

Absolutely! And I wish people would get this thru their thick skulls when they're driving a car too!

One of the major problems in this country (US) is our unbelievable ability to treat potentially life-shattering lapses in judgment as "human error", or as a "mistake" and then forgive these mistakes as easily as we take out the weekly trash. Where is the personal accountability?

I think we're really schizophrenic about this. I don't think we're hard enough on drunk drivers and alot of other people who put the lives of others in danger due to their own stupidity. If they hurt/kill themselves it's definitely unfortunate but, often times, they hurt/kill an innocent bystander and that, in my book, is inexcusable. On the other hand, if you look at someone wrong, you're lucky if you're not sued.

07-20-1999, 10:56 AM

This is the pit, right? So I can really say what I feel, right? Well you boomers are just goofy.

Allen Barnes, a black welfare recipient (poor, unbeautiful, unfamous), was shot in Gary Indiana. The police haven't changed anyone at this time. We as a nation are spending considerably more expense finding the body of this "American royalty". And why?

It's the old myth that if someone is rich and famous and beautiful, then his life is worth more than yours. It's elitist bullshit. That's why the tabloids are still harping on Joan-Benet's death, and no one cares when an ugly girl dies. (My apologies to The Onion.)

Six middle school kids were shot dead on their way to school by a gang last year. Right outside the school. What? You never heard about it? The news didn't bother to do an expose? Maybe it's because they were poor and black, and so we don't consider their lives as important as the rich white kids at Columbine. When white kids get shot, our president makes a speech.

None of you knew JFK Jr. You just had this vicarious attachment to status and wealth through him, and it felt good. He wasn't your friend. And if you can't cry for Allen Barnes, but you get all tearry for Jon-Jon, what does that make you?

I choose to have compassion for people I know, to feel for the human pain and suffering that's around me. But I don't have enough emotions to spend them on everybody in the world that dies, and I'm sure as hell not gonna choose who I mourn for based on who's pretty and rich.

Your Quadell

07-20-1999, 11:04 AM

Right on! I do not get teh deification of folks who have it made. What talent does it take to be born wealthy. Of course he gave to charity....he had millions! Of course Di went to a lot of Charity functions...that was all she had to do!

I find it interesting that the people who hire body guards to keep people like you and I away from them are worshipped by people like you and I.

But I guess we need to create god's on earth. The question is, why do we choose these people. But for that matter, why were so many concerned with Delta Burke's marriage?

07-20-1999, 11:53 AM

Not to in any way detract from Quadell's excellent points, or to defned the cult of celebrity and elitism in this country...

APparantly one of the really wonderful things about JFK,J was that he was fully aware how undeserved and ludicrous the attention was. He recognized that because he could do nothing about it and that in some way he actually had an obligation to it and to the people. He was always kind, respectful and gracious to people (He did NOT hire body guards) and he was made fully aware that being born to privilege does not make you better, it means you must be a work harder to be a better person for it, by giving back , by doing what you can for others, by not being arrogant. And by all accounts (Before his death, the ones after dont' count as much) he was all that and more, thanks to his mother.

And there is no escaping the fact that even though it's somewhat ridiculous, he was our best link to his father, for those of us for whom that mattered. Like it or no, many people did love his father and his father was important to them, for good reason. And losing john is just.... really, really sad.

So, there ya go.

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-20-1999, 11:54 AM

I have some bad news for you, Melin: We all deserve to die, and we're all going to, some of us sooner rather than later. It's called "life," and sometimes it's harsh, and it happens to rich people and poor people and old people and young people.

I'm reminded of the episode of "The Simpsons" in which Homer hears on the radio that the average male lifespan is 78 years or something. He says, "But I'm already 39! I'm only guaranteed another 39 years!" Bah. You, or I, could die in the next ten minutes, and the universe doesn't especially care how old you were, whether you were ever born, what you did or who your family was.

I think you're deifying this man and his clan just a little too much. I guarantee he wouldn't have known you from Adam if he passed you on the street and probably didn't care, either.

07-20-1999, 01:18 PM

I know many, many people who come to that realization.

You make it sound like he was an even better person because he had to overcome his wealth and privelege in order to realize that he had to be a "nice guy." I mean! Anyone can be a really nice person if they are poor, but it takes a real GOD of a man to be nice when he is rich.

I can understand people of JFK's generation following his family with interest...to a degree.

And speaking of his god-like father....are we talking about the same guy who was chowing pain killers, boozing it up and banging every chick he could inside of the nation's capitol building?

Maybe Jon Jon was a super nice guy, maybe he was secretly a creep. I don't know, and don't care. THe fact that anyone even looks into these things proves that the cult exists. I just do not think it makes sense or is very healthy.

The guy's dead. May he (and all of us) rest in peace.

07-20-1999, 01:21 PM

In the first sentence of the last post, I am referring to the realization that you should be a kind person, not be a braggart and try to help others. This is a realization that millions make.

Sorry for the unclarity.

07-20-1999, 01:30 PM

Mr. Z:

Actually, it IS harder to come to the realization that you should be a nice person when you are born to wealth, privilege, and completely unearned demi-worship just because of your DNA. Most people learn that lesson because if they don't, their life experience will suck. People won't like them, they won't go very far. Most of us learn these lessons as part of our way of being successful and well-liked.

When you are John F. Kennedy, Jr. (Or one of any number of other celebrities, who seem to forget the lessons they learned when they were nobodies very quickly...imagine being BORN as Madonna or Micheal Jackson or Leo DiCaprio?) you could, if you wanted to, be the biggest prick in the world, and women would still want you, people would still want to be your friend, people would still say "how high" when you told them to jump. It happens all the time...people get money, power, and fame, and they turn into assholes. That he remained completely unaffected by it, that he actually looked upon it as an obligation IS a tribute to his character.

I'm not up for canonization, that's ridiculous. But I've known enough famous people, rich people and powerful people to know that it is remarkable and laudable that he was, not just a good guy, but an EXCEPTIONALLY good guy.

Not to mention the fact that he was gorgeous.

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-20-1999, 02:35 PM

I have known some famous and/or rich folks who go both ways on this issue. Some are nice, some are jerks. They are Humans, they are a mixed bag.

One thing about being born rich and famous is that your actions are constantly scrutinized. One of my friend's father had a Private Eye record over 700 hours of surveillance tape of him over 3 years. That was just one of them. So life will suck if you are rich and act like a dick. It will be all over the enquirer and Globe by morning. Even if you really are a jerk, you have to always act like a nice guy. I don't buy it.

But I am not qualified to argue exactly what wealth does to you. My gut feeling is that when you are having trouble making rent, you are less likely to be charitable.
But if you have unlimited resources you can engage in the outward activities that are perceived as being charitable.

Ragardless, who gives a shit if he was nice? and if he wasn't, who cares. there are millions upon millions of super nice people. In the end, does it matter if they became nice BECAUSE OF their position in life or IN SPITE OF their position in life?

I think you hit the nail on the head with you last line: He was gorgeous...

... and rich, and young, and famous. Which are the *real* reasons anybody cares. When the ugly Kennedy bought it by hitting a tree in Aspen, hardly a word was said.

Holding up Jon Jon as the ideal is like holding up super models as the body ideal.
I mean, I may be a nice guy, but I didn't have to overcome my privilege. And I may be good looking, but I'm not rich.

And you may be a great woman and rich...but maybe you aren't 5'11" and 119 lbs. Sorry, we only worship the skinny women and rich men here.

Come to think of it, JFK was rich and good looking and his wife was rich and good looking and skinny. Maybe they were the ideal American couple setting the tone, so to speak.

07-20-1999, 02:57 PM

Quote (Melin) on me:
"You are sick and twisted. Fortunately John Jr. is beyond your reach."

Melin, so sorry to offend you. True he was a very powerful, rich and famous man, but I only said he had it coming because of the so called Kennedy Curse. His father was 47 (if I remember correctly) when he was murdered, and JFK, jr died when he was 38- approaching 40. After a long nights sleep and some thinking, I take back what I said. He didn't have it coming, what happened to him, his wife and his sister-in-law was a very tragic accident. Its just that I get tired of the media treating some people as if they are worth more than others- to me everyone is created equal, and should be treated thusly. Did anyone else hear the news of 3 men drowning in Lake Eerie on the same date as Mr. Kennedy's accident? I highly doubt it. Hopefully you'll reconsider that "sick and twisted" part and realize where my stance is on this issue.

------------------
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."
-- Calvin and Hobbes

07-20-1999, 04:13 PM

Mr. Z:

Not going to argue with the beautiful, rich and skinny stuff. Happens to be the ideal in this country, and there is no question that they embodied it.

But I think there's a bit of unrealistic bullshit being thrown about here as well. Of COURSE nobody cares about the unknowns who have been dying over the past few days, or every damn day for that matter. Two simple reasons:

1. If we stopped to care about everybody who dies, we'd never have time to do/feel anything else. There's thousands dying every minute, folks, and probably at least a few hundred dying young and violently.

2. We DID NOT KNOW THEM, or ANYTHING about them. yes, we did not "know" JFK, but we did know ALOT about him, from birth on. We had heard from him verbally and in writing, we knew all about his family and their history, etc. THAT is why we care about celebrity death, for the same reason we care about the death of not only people we truly care for personally, but people we simply KNOW (boss, acquaintance, guy who runs the local 7-11, whatever). It makes the death meaningful in a way the death of someone completely unknown to you does not. The more you know about the person (and the more you like what you know) the more meaningful the death becomes.

It's simple logic, not a conspiracy.

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-20-1999, 05:32 PM

Stoidela, beautifully put.

I do not understand the interest in stars, or pro athletes or celebreties. I think that it is kind of sad and unhealthy. It is not like having a hero, say, Stephen Hawking. It is about something else. Maybe looks. MAybe envy.

THere is no conspiracy, just something in human nature that gets exploited by some industries. I just hate to see people getting sucked up in it. THere is actually pressure to act sad. As if to fail to be sad about his passing (or Di's or the Columbine student's) shows a lack of compassion. Not so.

Point number one hit is square on the head. I didn't know him personally and seeing his mug screaming at Daryl hanna on the cover of the Enquirer didn't make him nearly as close to me as the guy at the 7-11.

07-20-1999, 07:25 PM

"Pilot error equals human error. There's plenty of that going around"

Jahender: Talk about unadulterated asinine bullshit. As a pilot and as a son who grew up
around a family and a community of pilots, I have had one thing and one thing only beat into my head regarding pilot safety, "You fuck up in a plane, you die, you fuck
up in a plane with passengers, you murder them"

Murder, per Merriam-Webster is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." I didn't check into M-W for the definition of vulgarities.

"Taking yourself and two others in a flight where flight conditions were minimally
suspect and infringing on night flying when you are a inexperienced pilot, with no
instrument certification is a risk, no matter what the media will do to sugar coat JFK
Jr.’s error in judgment. Now if he was the only person in the plane, it would be sad,
but nevertheless a self-inflicting tragedy. However, the fact that there were two
others on that plane, and they placed their trust and lives in his 'implied'
statements of ability, competency and decision making, makes his poor judgment, in
my opinion an act of murder."

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't believe he got into his plane with malice aforethought to kill himself, his wife and his sister-in-law.

"...as a pilot you take the lives of the people into your hands every time you have passengers in your plane, and if you let them down due to pilot error, you murder them."

I'd be repetitive here...

"I can understand a non-pilot’s view that the prior statement is harsh and ridiculous, but I (and I hope you as well) would not fly with
some one who does not have the same view that has been demanded of me."

Sorry....I get in commercial planes all the time, and have no idea of the pilot's personal viewpoints on this subject. I merely assume that the commercial pilot has no more wish to kill himself and his manifold passengers than I do. However, if given the choice to fly with an experienced pilot versus one with only a few hours under his belt, I'd pick the experienced one. By the way, do we KNOW how many hours JFK, Jr. logged in this particular plane?

"Additionally, to say ‘that pilot error equals human error’ wreaks of a lack of personal accountability for your decisions, especially significant ones. Human error is cutting someone off with your shopping cart at the grocery store, forgetting to tell your
wife that her mother called two days ago, booting a routine pop fly in right field.
Human error is a mistake, where the consequences are impactful, but not dire or
grave and should be forgiven with a minimal sincere apology."

Oh, pullleeze. Human error is hardly limited to the cases to which you point. Dire consequences result from human error daily....what we now do is attempt to blame OTHERS for common human error.

"One of the major problems in this country (US) is our unbelievable ability to treat potentially life-shattering lapses in judgment as "human error", or as a "mistake" and then forgive these mistakes as easily as we take out the weekly trash. Where is the
personal accountability?"

In the courtrooms...daily.

"When and where are we going to call people on what they are and what they have done, without worrying about how favorably they will be remembered."

Again...in the courtrooms. Or...in the press.

I'm terribly sorry about your experience with a drunken ex-co-worker. I believe your response was right on. You preferred to put your money into something that would make people aware of the problem source.

But please also don't assume that JFK, Jr. set out Friday night to murder. That's purely offensive.

Example: Two years ago, one of my ex-co-workers got drunk and offered his new
hire a ride home from a work/social function, telling him that this would give them a
"good chance to bond". This drunk bastard then (at 80 mph) drove into a bridge
support, killing himself and the new hire. Fast forward two weeks and I am asked by
a co-worker if I would like to contribute money to fund a memorial in this SOB’s
name. "Sure" I reply, "if the money will go to drunk driving awareness." "Oh no, we
don’t wont people to think of Steve as a drunk driver" the co-worker replied.

Why not, he did it didn't he? If we won’t something good to come from this mess,
the media should totally play up the fact that this was a PREVENTABLE tragedy, JFK
Jr. fucked up, and all pilots and people thinking of getting their license should
understand that this is not a hobby/game, it is a skill that take hundreds of hours of
practice, preparation and dedication and that crashing your plane with two people
in into the ocean it is not "human error" it is much, much more with deadly
consequences.

------------------
"There will always be somebody who's never read a book who'll know twice what you know." - D.Duchovny

07-21-1999, 12:02 AM

Great post, Stoidela. If all that's true about JFK Jr, then I probably would have realy liked him, had I known him.

Your Quadell

07-21-1999, 04:18 AM

I've had an epiphany about how to explain why we feel the way we do about John's death or similar celebrities.

It's exactly the same emotion we have when we WATCH A SAD MOVIE. Why do we cry at a movie? Not only do we not know those people, the characters aren't even REAL, yet we cry when it is sad.

Same thing here... John's life has been a really long movie with a really attractive and appealing character who comes to a sad end.

There ya go.

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-21-1999, 06:49 AM

Ooops. My message was supposed to end before Jahender's example. Sorry I forgot to delete the rest of his message.

Stoidela, your postings are right on. I'm always pleased to read your offerings.

07-21-1999, 09:56 AM

What offends me is all the bad writing that a death like this, or Diana's, elicits from the media. I am genuinely saddened by these deaths--but if I have to see one more photo of little John-John saluting while syrupy music plays in the background and an announcer reads Barbara Cartland phrases about "America mourns for its Crown Prince," I will YIP. Isn't the bare-bones story sad enough without all the gag-making Kewpies and violin music?

By the way, I have been reading this message board for months and have just logged on, so a first hopeful "hello" to you guys and gals . . .

07-21-1999, 03:28 PM

I'm new here and have just read these postings. I reacted to lots of things but there are too many to respond to individually, so I'm just gonna talk for a minute. First a couple of reactions, then my thoughts on the importance/unimportance of this event.
Some people seem to think that the time and expense devoted to this search are due to John's celebraty (sp?). I imagine this is because they live in urban areas where search and rescue teams are not commonly seen. I live in the mountains and can assure you all that if you had the misfortune to make a "total error in judgement" and commit the apparantly unforgivable sin of finding yourself and your family in a life threatening situation...helecopters, climbers, dogs, rangers on horses, etc. would not rest until you were found.
It strikes me that there is an awful lot of misplaced anger out there. In the first place, if you are really angry about hearing so much coverage...why do you direct your anger at John Jr. and the Kennedy clan? I am sure that they would prefer privacy at this time in there lives. I don't understand how anyone can express anger and hatred in the face of anyone's misfortune or loss. I realize that some people simply spend their lives angry at everything and others automatically hate anyone with money, looks, power or youth. This is a sad truth that I believe has become a standard in our society.
I was born in 1949 and am plenty old enough to remember John Kennedy's election as well as his assassination. I remember being struck by John-John' salute. I didn't question it's source...I assumed someone instructed him, though having been raised in a military family, I saw it as a natural and even possibly spontaneous act. Mostly, it was simply touching. As many of you have commented, regardless of political bent, people loved, respected and valued John F. Kennedy. For all the frivolousness (is that a word?) of the 60's their was much more that was important and had a whole lot to do with insuring a way of life taken granted today. The changes that came out of that time, could only have happened in an environment of hope. Hope is something that people like JFK, RFK, Dr. Martin Luther King, JR., and hundreds of thousands of nameless faces instilled and inspired. The assassasinations of these 3 gentlemen took that hope from many of us. (not because any particular person was gone...that happened over and over on a daily basis) Our hope was taken because, in the middle of all the other horrors of the time, we found that such great leaders could be cut down so brutally. It made many of us question the ability for this society to ever be civilized. (and with all the anger, intolerance and violence today, I'm not convinced it's not a true assessment.) John-John was so entirely a part of this era, we were there when he was born, we grieved with him at his fathers death, and now we grieve for his.
Some of you spoke of Phil Hartman's death being sadder. It was equally sad and tragic. But my question is; who are you to make that adjustment, you should be able the understand. If Phil Hartman's death was of moment to you and you were saddened, then why can't I be saddened by John Jr.'s? Because you have no interest in him doesn't make my grieving less real.
To those of you that are angered by his wealth, fame, etc. I can only say, I'm sorry that you allow that jealousy to get in the way of your ability to be compassionate. I am tired of hearing about no one caring about the little guy, the black guy, the poor guy. Because I am white, doesn't mean I have a wonderful life. My entire life has been tragic; Several people have suggested I write a book to help others. Today, I am disabled and in danger of losing my home because I scrape for every penny. I am not complaining..I am telling you that I know what it is to suffer. I am also telling you that I am a devout, loving, reasonably happy person who still believes in "loving my neighbor", "helping those less fortunate and in my responsibility to the bigger picture. I care and I am saddened when I watch the local and national news and see: a child down a well halfway across the country, a 9 car pileup on the highway that kills a 9 month old baby and puts the mother in a coma, another drug bust, a discovered meth lab in a home with children. And I am saddened when I log into a chat line and I read postings from people who respond to tagic death with anger and hatred because the victims have money.

P.S. I continue to be amazed that people believe, because a president has the same faults/weaknesses as millions of people everywhere, we are allowed to strip them of all dignity as well as their strengths and gifts. We don't pay the president enough money to be a God...he just needs to do his job. Perhaps we should take a closer look at multi million dollar moguls and pro athletes if this is the standard we REALLY want to set.
Lew
Ever the optimist.