Europeans: How do you really feel about America?

[XT]

Was watching a show on Discovery tonight...Discovery Spotlight. Basically this episode had an American journalist going to Europe to explore European attitudes towards American's. In addition, the reporter also interviewed various American students going to school in Europe (some in England, some in France and Germany). It was...interesting. The chasm between Europe and the US has never seemed greater than watching this show. Its seems much greater than the last time I visited Europe in fact (which has been a while admittedly...and on business so not exactly a leisurely trip).

So, what I'd like to ask Eurodopers is...how do you REALY feel about America? Not just about GW Bush, not just about the US government, but about America in general. Please, don't hold back...I'm really curious. Don't say whats politically correct (i.e. 'I really like America and Americans, just not Bush'...if you REALLY distrust America and Americans reguardless of GW).

Several of the people interviewed on the show (they interviewed folks mostly from France, Germany and England...but a few from Spain and some other places) claimed America frightened them. Several (many) made statements that they would be personally afraid to come to America, afraid of police harrassment, afraid of American's...just afraid. This seemed to go way beyond the war in Iraq. Many in fact put it in terms of religion. From the show, it seemed to go to some fundamental break between Europeans and Americans, a break that some folks interviewed doubt can ever be healed.

As a second part to this debate, American dopers who regularly visit Europe: Do you feel under attack or defensive when you visit America? What struck me, besides the interviews with various Europeans, was the near universal claims by US students of being under attack, of being constantly harrassed for what their country and president did or do....even those who are clearly against the Bush administration stated this. So, whats your take on this? For myself, I have to admit that when I go to Europe these days its usually on business, and I generally hang out with people I already know and am friends with. They certainly harrass me, but they are my friends...I expect harrassment from that quarter.

-XT

[Ryan_Liam]

I'm not personally afraid of Americans or their power, I generally regard US power as benign and think to myself of the alternatives to that power, thus being greatly thankful and reassured.

the people who just don't like America is because of one thing, its wealth and its resources, and the war, which I believe is doing great good for the people in that region.

Anti Americanism is not new, its been around for 60 years, it was just dormant for a while before 9/11.

[Imasquare]

Although for the time being I live in Australia I am actually a Brit and still consider England as my home. So I guess I'm European.

I had always admired the US up until recent times. Since the September 11 terrorist attacks the US seems to have become just a touch too right wing. And there is far too much political involvement from people I would consider to be religous zealots. And of course for these people to have the power they do, a large number of American must also think the same way they do.

On the other hand almost all of the Americans I have personally met have been thoughtful, considerate, and very polite. Definately not the stereotype common in the UK and Australia of loud, ignorant Americans.

I think the current political climate in the US is an abberation caused by a reaction to the horrors of September 11, and that sooner ot later things will return to normal.

[Maastricht]

A Dutch writer said that Europeans imitate American's own anti-Americanism in much the same way they imitated wearing jeans and drinking Coca-Cola.

Besides, I wouldn't put too much credit in a TV-program like this. It wouldn't have made much of a show if every person interviewed had said: "America? Dunno. Okay I guess. "

[gum]

On this site (http://textus.diplomacy.edu/thina/GetXDoc.asp?IDconv=3039), I found this:

"If a European is asked whether he opposes or supports the United States over Iraq, the majority will say they are opposed. But assume that a different question was put to them: Do you prefer to live in an integrated Europe dominated by France and Germany, or would you prefer to maintain a degree of independence by aligning with the United States on security issues? There the answer would, in the majority of cases, be for limiting European integration and relying on the United States for security."

-------------------

That might very well sum up the feelings of the [smaller] European countries.
There are anti-American feelings in the Netherlands, but they are mainly due to the large population of muslims. And there still are a few 'sandal-footed, head-in-the-sand, "LALALA, I can't hear you"-singers, who oppose America just because. :D


As for America in general and for myself: I like America.
No doubt about it.

I do not like the overly religious American people, but then again: I do not like religion, period.
I'm not at all afraid of America's power. I rather see the power in the hands of America, than in the hands of *coughFrancecough* or some banana republic.

And I like Americans. :)

[Rune]

I think you suck

[gum]

I think you suck
hehehehe :)

[aldiboronti]

I for one welcome our new American overlords.

[tagos]

I’m a Brit and probably like a lot of Brits I have a split view.

I love the energy, I love the innovation, I love many products of the culture. The best TV, some of the best films and novels, innovative social thinking, IMHO is from the USA.

But I seriously do fear the USA is now a threat to the survival of civilisation with its attitude to the environment and a huge threat to world peace with its current imperialist, might-makes-right tendencies. Frankly, the views of the Bush apologists on this board are one of the main drivers with their combination of ignorance of the world and the USA’s foreign policy impacts, disdain for the poor and the weak and their ‘might-makes-right’ attitude. It’s bought it home to me what a brutal attitude pervades what appears to be the dominant culture and manifested in your inhuman health system.

And I’m staring askance at the hold religious superstition still has and its pervasive brake on progressive social policies.

Personally, I love Americans for their open and generous attitudes. You could do with being a helluva lot less trusting though and stop letting truly malignant forces manipulate your good intentions and use it as a cloak for the worst sorts of real-politick. You don’t have a Manifest Destiny and you are not the greatest society on Earth etc.

I finally lost faith with the last election, which from my perspective was clearly stolen with the most blatant vote-rigging. That’s two strikes now and you surrendered any claim to being a democracy at that point. Here again your basic open and honest nature combined with blinkered patriotism and this belief the USA is somehow morally superior blinds you to what’s going on under your noses. You somehow just can’t bring yourselves to believe it happened just as you can’t seem to see you were lied into a war and this allows the Right to act with impunity.

There are a lot of worse countries and threats to the planet but the USA has always been something to look on with respect even when protesting the shameful war of the sixties and the disgraceful dictator and torturer loving foreign policies of the 70’s and 80’s.

Now the hypocrisy is just so blatant, the contempt for the rest of the world so obvious among the Right and their supporters, again as evidenced by some of the posters here, that that respect is replaced by both a well-founded fear and a profound sense of loss and disillusionment.

[owlstretchingtime]

There is a huge ambivelence towards America in Britain and Europe (no it's not the same thing!). In many ways we see you as the bratty younger brother that has done rather well for himself, but we still think you're bratty.

Good things about America:

Films
Music
some TV
literature (I'll forgive you an awful lot for James Ellroy)
Annoy the French

Bad Things:

Too much religion
Blinkered world view
All fat
Too commercial
Frankly mad. See Janet Jackson's tit, and OJ Simpson getting away with murder.
Insanely preoccupied by race
Rubbish food (and this is from an englishman)
That whole "American Hair" thing.

In general I would say that most Brits have a fairly positive, if rather condescending, view of America and Americans. However on the continent things are not so rosey.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I'm a German living in the Netherlands that grew up in the U.S. My feelings are very ambivalent. There are many things about the U.S. that I love, and many that I don't like or have me worried.

First, the things I love:

- The people are usually friendly and open.
- The country is so huge and has so much room and empty spaces.
- The scenery.
- The incredible choices you have when it comes to junk food. There are aisles the sizes of an entire European supermarket with just the various kinds of potato chips!
- The incredible mix of cultures. In any larger city there are so many ethnic neighborhoods and restaurants.
- The freedom you have in most everything. You can basically say, do, read, watch, etc. anything you want (at least in your own home, you can). Most European governments seem to involve themselves in the day-to-day lives of their citizens more than the U.S. government does.


The things I don't like or that have me worried:

- The fact that some vocal minorities (the religious right) have such power. The majority of Americans are not like the born-again Christian right-wing nutters that are all we hear about here in Europe.
- I think there is still a lot of latent racism in large parts of the country.
- The complete lack of culture in large parts of the country.
- The fact that most small towns are turning into strip-malls and Wal-Marts.
- The dying out of the middle-classes. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Another fifty years, and the U.S will look like Brazil without the bright future.
- The dumbing down of the average American. The country has the best institutes of higher education in the entire world, yet people graduate High School while being functionally illiterate. This is tied in with the previous problem. There is a lot of socio-economic discrimination in the U.S.
- The "American Dream" is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.
- I seem to sense a lot of fear in most Americans. Europe has lived with terrorism and war for ages, yet one (admittedly horrible) attack on American soil has put your entire society into panic mode. Headless chickens usually do not make sound decisions.
- The paradoxical behaviour when it comes to anything having to do with sex. Americans are randy buggers (just look at some of the threads on this board), yet they go completely haywire when they see boobies on TV. It's as if they want to get kinky but feel guilty about it.
- The fact that you can get a drivers license at sixteen, join the armed forces at eighteen, but have to wait until you're 21 if you want a beer. This is one of the main things that leads to so much binge drinking when the kids finally go of to college.


All in all, I still love the U.S., and I would like to go their on vacation again soon. However, I am worried about the future of the country. I really think that the country is in a downward spiral and badly needs to fix some of the problems I mentioned above. Considering all of this, I would not want to live there permanently, and I especially would not want to be old or poor there.

[Latro]

Well, yes I mistrust the US.


As a society you come across as:

Shallow
Sexually frustrated
Undereducated
Violent
Rampant crime
Over religious
Money hungry
Xenophobic
Chauvenistic
Blunt to the level of boorish
Hypocritical

As a country, interacting with fellow earthlings, there are:

Unjust wars, starting with 1812, 1848, through Philipines to Iraq.
The handling of the natives
Dirty OPs
Mercantilism
and again, the hypocracy


I wouldn't feel so disillusioned if all the powergrabbing in the world hadn't been accompanied with so much lying, propaganda and dirty tricks.

Growing up in the 70's- 80's, the brief period where you were humbled by the defeat in Vietnam, the image of the USA was of a very modern country that had very high moral values on freedom and wanted to ensure that the rest of the world lived in freedom too. Both on national and individual levels.
It was a country with new, fresh ideas about how society should be, with cool cutting edge technologies. Superior to the Europe of the colonial era and stuck-in-the mud communism.

About the time of the presidency of Reagan this image started to change as it turned out to be so much propaganda. The dirty stuff you had pulled in the more distant past, the recent past and the stuff that was still being pulled, in Nicaragua, Chili etc..
All the time shouting FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.
We Europeans gave up our colonies and power and wars under US pressure and for these 'nice' ideals, trying to create a better world. Only to wake up and see the US simply having taken over. Not overtly but sneaky, sneaky, behind the scenes.
All the time shouting FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.
Turns out FREEDOM is for people where you want to earn some big bushels of money. All the while expanding and having to 'defend' this growing empire, dirty and behind the back, with brute force if 'necessary'

So I have a distinct sense of disillusionment and a feeling of having been betrayed.




And yes someone will come along and say that 'Old Europe' doesn't come out of history smelling of roses either. Pointing out some nasty stuff pulled by one of our countries, therefore we should shut up and it's all kettles and pots.

But see, we were all giving up on that stuff, the iron curtain came down and the future seemed bright once more. After this long shadow of the threat of atomic war things were starting to look good for the world. Look, see, we can live in peace and harmony.

Now it's back to power games and grab what you can.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I forgot about another thing I don't like about the U.S. It's the death penalty. Posts like this one:

While I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of this, I don't read it as an "outright call to kill your political opponent".

And Walker isn't a political opponent. Nor is McVeigh. They're murderers.

The Liberal left has to realize that they can be be killed just as easily as anyone else by nut-jobs like these, right-wing nut-jobs and garden-variety nut-jobs.

If the death penalty isn't invoked for these types of crimes, there will be more of them.

Which was in response to the following Ann Coulter quote:

"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

in this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310860), frighten me.

Both what NutMagnet and Ann Coulter are saying here is morally repugnant IMHO.

[TwistofFate]

I like your country.

I'm frankly scared by how much influence Religion has. We should have as high a regard for it so as to keep it out of as many things as possible.

I'm scared at the direction your government is leading the world.

[Walker in Eternity]

I like a lot of American exports - films, books, comics etc.

You have a great country, but lots of injustice.

Like Owlstretchingtime says, religion dominates far too much of your politics.

I echo the first half of what Lagos said, but disagree that the US is no longer democratic.

I find it worrying that a lot of Americans who appear in the media are completely unaware of the world around them, even the ones in power seem to have a very blinkered picture of the world.

I have never actually been to America, so I don't know a lot of Americans, but the ones that I encounter on this messageboard give me a positive view of Americans, although how representative you are of the whole population I don't know.

I also think that Hollywood and American TV have contributed to the dumbing down of the population in general, we don't need any more dumbing down, our own institutions (BBC, schools etc) are already doing a fine job of that.

[cosmosdan]

I think you suck
This could be a slam or just wishful thinking from a gay European?

[enigmatic]

Things that worry me

Your goverments very short sighted environmental and fiscal policy.

The general apathy to revelations about things which would just about sink any government over here. (at one point these seemed to come about once a week)

The astonishing level of poverty that exists for a large percentage of people in America.

The rather blatant links between corporations and politicians in both parties and the resultant legislation which often seems to make huge concessions to big companys.

The erosion of workers rights.

The culture of fear (I don't think this a recent thing either).

Contempt for the opinions of other countries.(I think this is going to bite your current administration in the butt in a big way)

The lack of credible political opposition that presents any real alternatives. ("I'm not Bush" is not a credible campaign strategy)

The increased influence of the religous right.

The quite incredibly bewildering notion that dissagreeing with your government is unpatriotic/unamerican (I personally think this might be the most dangerous one on the list)

I have to say that the above is based on my following the news over here, talking to visiting Americans and my friends who have been working in America recently and listening to you guys bitch on this board, I haven't actually been to America for quite some time. Almost every american I have met over here has been polite, intelligent, and fairly svelte :)

I hope many of the things I've listed above are temporary abberations, I am concerned that if not they could be laying the groundwork for unpleasant things. I am very concerned about some of the things that 51% of American voter might let happen at present, although I'd hasten to stress that I'm not talking about the present administration (I hate the Bush administration with a passion, but I don't think they are as crazy as a few people on this board seem to think)

[Rune]

Anti Americanism is not new, its been around for 60 years, it was just dormant for a while before 9/11.Anti-Americanism is considerably older than that. It goes back more than 100 years. Everybody loves when they can find someone else to blame for their own pathetic incompetence and weakness, and it’s just human nature to hates those that are more better off and successful than themselves. Remarkable, anti-Americanism is a thing Chamberlain, Hitler and Stalin as well as a host of contemporary Europeans could come together with in heartfelt agreement. And Americans are the near perfect scapegoat since they for some strange, if endearing, reason really sincerely, if somewhat naively, do seem to want to be loved by everybody, and generally will repay hatred & disdain with puzzlement and attempts to reform themselves, rather than the more natural; enmity. No that it will avail them anything, since obviously anti-Americanism, much like anti-Semitism, is not a based on logic and has more to do with those revelling in it than those being hated and absolutely nothing Americans themselves can do will really change anything about them being hated.

I, being European, am not overly concerned about what European anti-Americanism means and do for Americans; sure it’s unfair but such is life and an honest appraisal of human nature will tell you that the strongest and richest nation on earth could hardly expect anything less. I am, however, very concerned about what it means for Europe. Anti-Americanism poison the mind and cloud the intellect. Europeans indulging in it will avoid addressing the failings of their own societies and rather focus on those imagined ones of America. And thus we will keep falling back. And I do not want to see Europe descend to the abject stupidity of the Arab world, always droning on about Israel, the US, the west being the cause of all their self-inflicted misery, pathetic culture and idiotic rule.

Fear and hatred as well as feelings of superiority over Americans is pathetic. And saying things like the US isn’t democratic, Americans are shallow, xenophobic (from a European no less!), chauvinistic and hypocritical (the mind boggles that you don’t see the contradiction), … just to pick a few, is just fucking pathetic. Europeans should take a good long look in the mirror before commenting on the US.

Despite how can you be scared of a people with such a complete lack of fashion sense? And they talk funny too. And then they’re so cute when they try to act all cultured and all, and when they get their panties in a twist over a pair breasts. awww so cute, just like children. We just have to teach them to behave like adults is all.

[Mangetout]

Disclaimer: I've never been to America, so my views are quite likely to be rather skewed by media, entertainment and dumb tourist influences, as well as by my own cultural background.

I'm often tickled by references to 'right' and 'left' in American politics; they all look quite a way to the right to me, to the extent that I have trouble telling the difference between the parties. (Ok, so British politics has gone this way a bit too since New labour).

There's this other thing that's hard to describe, but comes across basically as a sort of culture of selfishness and wastefulness; borne, I think out of a wide range of factors, such as the general capitalist ethic, heightened sense of personal rights, the dream of personal empowerment, the forces of media/advertising/market culture etc.
Hard to describe this because it is subtle and in order to point it out, one is forced to exaggerate; and all the while I'm conscious that it's deeply coloured by my own perspective - which is probably an odd blend of wimpy liberal tree-hugger that wishes for a fairly authoritarian framework.

I've met a number of Americans and on a personal level, I've found all of these to be rather nice, intelligent people. They don't seem to understand us all that well, particularly our taste in humour, bless 'em.

I don't mean any of this in an unkind way and I hope you'll understand that this is more a way of detailing what opinions I might hold, if I were not prepared to critically and contextually examine incoming data, than it is a description of my actual opinions.

[Latro]

Fear and hatred as well as feelings of superiority over Americans is pathetic. And saying things like the US isn’t democratic, Americans are shallow, xenophobic (from a European no less!), chauvinistic and hypocritical (the mind boggles that you don’t see the contradiction), … just to pick a few, is just fucking pathetic.

Counter arguments would be nice, Rune, instead of just calling it pathetic.



awww so cute, just like children. We just have to teach them to behave like adults is all.

These cute children of yours just invaded another country, killing thousands of actual human beings. For no reason but for plunder.

[owlstretchingtime]

These cute children of yours just invaded another country, killing thousands of actual human beings. For no reason but for plunder.


What plunder pray? You may not like this but the simple fact is that the Yanks invaded Iraq because they thought it was the right thing to do. That's also why we helped them.

The real villains in Iraq are the French and Russians who broke the blockade and the UN with it's corrupt officials.

Your posturing is giving us Europeans a bad name!

[E-Sabbath]

And Americans are the near perfect scapegoat since they for some strange, if endearing, reason really sincerely, if somewhat naively, do seem to want to be loved by everybody, and generally will repay hatred & disdain with puzzlement and attempts to reform themselves, rather than the more natural; enmity.

You know, if we have to be stereotyped, there are worse ones. I've always liked this, that people do believe we're generally well-meaning. Gives hope for the future. Sure, it makes us look like marks and saps, but it's hard to truly hate someone who you expect will try to work with you.

[Odesio]

I often wonder if threads like this actually accomplish anything thing other then kicking up a hornets nest and generating bad feelings. Is there something constructive to debate or should this thread just be moved to IMHO or better yet The Pit?

Let's start some other fun threads. How about "What Americans think of Europeans" or "What Americans think of What Europeans Think of America?"

Marc

[owlstretchingtime]

Let's start some other fun threads. How about "What Americans think of Europeans" or "What Americans think of What Europeans Think of America?"

Marc

If you really wanted to get things going you could do "what europeans think of each other"

We've had millenia to get pissed off with our neighbours - you're just new kids on the block.

[Evil One]

These cute children of yours just invaded another country, killing thousands of actual human beings. For no reason but for plunder.

Were you opposed to the medium range nuclear weapons coming to Europe in the 1980's?

Did you think the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a bad idea?

Did you disagree with Reagan walking away from Gorbachov in Iceland in the late 1980's?

If any of the above answers are "yes" than perhaps you'll see my point.

[Latro]

What plunder pray? You may not like this but the simple fact is that the Yanks invaded Iraq because they thought it was the right thing to do.

Why was it necessary to do anything at all?

The threat from WMD ?
Bollocks, there was no threat.

Saddam was EEEvil?
Sodd that too, were's the involvement with other humanitarian hot spots?

Take these two away and what exactly was the reason for war???

With no answer, all I saw was rebuilding contracts being handed out to Yankee firms. And how big does the Halliburton elephant need to be?


That's also why we helped them.


Why your poodle jumped in so readily is still a big question mark.
As is why the Dutch are in. Our % of the population that was anti-war was even bigger than Britain's. Yet there we are, on the ground. How did that happen??

[owlstretchingtime]

Why your poodle jumped in so readily is still a big question mark.
As is why the Dutch are in. Our % of the population that was anti-war was even bigger than Britain's. Yet there we are, on the ground. How did that happen??

I have no idea why the Dutch are there - that's for them to work out (to be brutally honest I wasn't aware the dutch WERE there - that's my ignorance though. Did they do any fighting?).

Why are we there? Because our friends and allies the Americans asked for our help. When the chips are down we know that our interests and values broadly resemble those of the yanks.

The people of Britain get a chance to get rid of Blair in four week's time (and God willing they will), that's a luxury the Iraqis never had with Saddam.

[Evil One]

Is the Conservative Party still the main opposition to Labour in the UK?

[owlstretchingtime]

Is the Conservative Party still the main opposition to Labour in the UK?

Yes. By quite a long way.

[Latro]

Why are we there? Because our friends and allies the Americans asked for our help. When the chips are down we know that our interests and values broadly resemble those of the yanks.


That's all very noble but it doesn't answer why there was a war in the first place.

Btw, wasn't it only just recently that Britain fulfilled its last payment for the help it received from its friends and allies the Americans during WWII?

[Sattua]

I guess that Americans are allowed in this thread, because the second part of the OP asks if we feel uncomfortable in Europe. I've been in France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy in the last 18 months and my answer is: only in France, and I don't know if every single meal we ordered had a problem and every single night we were locked out of our hotel rooms because A) some of us were American, or B) some of us were Israeli, or C) the French are completely incompetent. Everywhere else people seemed to be completely uninterested in us and there were no problems.

I would also like to quietly, without vitriol, point out what several European posters have already noticed: Americans are frequently being criticized for not knowing anything about the rest of the world, and yet quite a few of the opinions about Americans expressed here reveal that the Europeans who hold those opinions know nothing about America, aside from what the media tells them.

And we don't understand your humor because it isn't funny. :p

[XT]

For the most part I'm going to stay out of this thread. I don't want to inject my own comments or thoughts on what others are writing but truely just want to watch the discussion. Its been very insightful so far...I appreciate all the comments. Keep em coming. :)

I often wonder if threads like this actually accomplish anything thing other then kicking up a hornets nest and generating bad feelings. Is there something constructive to debate or should this thread just be moved to IMHO or better yet The Pit?

I think its worthwhile to get an outside view of what others think of our nation. It helps put things into perspective and shows where there are disconnects between what we perceive as reality and what others do. I wasn't trying to kick a hornets nest over or provoke bad feelings, but I DID want honest answers...even if they were painful to me and my fellow American's on this board.

As for the choice of forum, this seemed most appropriate to me. If the mods think it should be in IMHO then they are free to move it there. I HOPE this isn't bound for the pit...that would be truely dissapointing to me.

-XT

[aruvqan]

Well, yes I mistrust the US.

Unjust wars, starting with 1812, 1848, through Philipines to Iraq.
The handling of the natives
Dirty OPs
Mercantilism
and again, the hypocracy


War of 1812 - Well, we had just told the Brits to sod off, and managed to make it stick. We had been a free country for less than 50 years, yet the brits kept kidnaping our men to serve on their naval vessels. Kidnaping is not the kinder, gentler manner of getting sailors.

War of 1848, Mexican-American War - Texas had ceeded from Mexico in 1836 to become the Republic of Texas and had been accepted into the US. Mexico wanted the land back, we decided to keep it. IF you accept that a territory can ceed from a country and make its own decisions, then you must allow that territory to maintain its freedoms, including letting it decide to joining a larger and different union. If not, then the US and many other countries would still be colonies.

Oddly enough, 'manifest destiny' tended to keep us more or less busy in the continental US rather than going to other parts of the world and getting into scrabbles. Almost every military action we did overseas was in response to problems involving our merchant fleets, or our citizens overseas. As to the treatment of natives, I might point out the colonial agressions found in aftica, australia, asia and india...pot, kettle. It was originally started by the Brits when they first came over to the americas in the US, the spaniards and portugese were no strangers to genocide. I might also point out that the slave trade in aftica was well established LONG before the US was any sort of entity. Blacks were selling blacks to us, we simply bought a commodity to make our lives more easy. We did not just show up in africa, bash people on the head and load them into ships. We bought them 'fair and square' in slavers markets.

There is no country that is totally removed from this, all countries derive from historical political arrangements. The whole world is not responsible in the present for actions that occurred 500 years ago, or even 75 years ago. I cannot hold my friend Christian [german, retired military pilot] responsible for bombing London, or for Auschwitz, and he cannot hold mrAru responsible for the finances of the state of New York in the 1700s making it *necessary* to push the native americans west to gain agricultural lands. I can't hold my friend Yuki responible for the death of my father's cousin in Bataan, and she cant hold me responsible for the oppression of the anglo-saxons in the 1200s, despite our getting given lands by William the Bastard. It just does not work that way.

[Gaudere]

[Moderator Hat ON]

This is more of a poll asking for people's experiences, so I am moving it to IMHO.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[choosybeggar]

Contempt for the opinions of other countries.


What are you, some Frog? A Kraut? Some Brit with bad teeth? We saved your ass in WWII and couldn't care less what you think!!


















:D

[Mycroft Holmes]

I think its worthwhile to get an outside view of what others think of our nation.

Like I said, I grew up in the U.S. I spent twelve of my first twenty years there, and I still consider it home a lot of times. I still love the U.S. and most Americans very much, but some things have me worried.

I have been doing some more thinking and the four main things that have me worried are the following:

- The gradual worsening of education. Just a generation ago the rate of literacy was higher than it is now. Too many children are getting a bad education and the children really are the future. What will happen another thirty years from now, when the general population knows even less about the world than it does now?

- The growing gap between rich and poor and the shrinking middle class. In the early twentieth century there was also a lot of poverty in the U.S, but by the end of that century almost all households had a TV, a fridge, plumbing, etc. The middle class was huge and the future seemed to be bright. Now, those that haven't made the next step in economic prosperity are being left behind.

- The culture of fear in the U.S. I don't think it will ever lead to fascism or ultra-nationalism as I have seen some posters speculate in other threads, but I think it will lead to more gated communities, more seperation between the well-to-do and the poor.

- The fact that very little thought is given to the future. Everything needs to be done now and here. Very little thought is given to the environment and the immense debt. It's like the Americans are all saying: "Ah what the heck, let our grandkids worry about that crap."


Now, it's not like I think everything is going to hell in a handbasket right now. There is till time to correct these problems, and I think a lot of people are becoming more and more aware of these things. I think the future for the U.S. is still very bright, but just not as bright as it might have been thirty or even twenty years ago.

[Zsofia]

As an American, I've never at all felt uncomfortable in any other country because of my nationality (except maybe in Paris, but it seems even other French people sort of feel that way about Paris. And there were plenty of nice people there too.) In fact, I've never felt more welcome anywhere in the world than at the Hungarian National Museum when I (perhaps un-Americanly) showed a lot of interest in the history and culture. Then again, the dollar spends real well against the forint.

I didn't at all want to hijack the thread, which is really interesting, but I have to ask, what's American hair? Because I'm scared I might have it and I need to know. :)

[kunilou]

I haven't been to Europe in 35 years, so I can't bring anything to the discussion about current attitudes.

But 1969 was a bad year to be an American in Europe. There was anti -U.S. graffiti sprayed on walls in every city we visited. We had rocks thrown at our tour buses when someone discovered we were from the U.S., and there were well-meaning Europeans who actually advised us to answer "Canada" if someone asked where we were from.

Of course, that kind of knee-jerk bigotry no longer exists on the Continent, does it?

[Sevastopol]

Next time there is a major terrorist attack in the US, I won't care much.

[hildea]

How do I feel about America? That's a huge question, you know. The short answer is: Mixed. The long answer would be incredbly long, so 'll just share some random impressions.

I visited USA once (In 1990. For two weeks. :) ) and found the people friendly and nice to be around - including the girl who tried to convert me to her brand of Christianity, and seemed to have an incredibly naive view of atheism, but was willing to listen and remain friendly when I described my view of Life, the Universe and Everything. When meeting individual Americans, I'm prepared to like them.

Many of my favourite authors and favourite musicians are American. My bookshelves have more books in English than in Norwegian.

I'm very, very glad Norway is an ally of USA. But that's not because I see your country as a good friend, it's because I see it as a very, very bad enemy. (Yes, I can hear you muttering "We saved your ungrateful asses from the Nazis" over there. Well, so did the Russians. Can't say it gave me warm and fuzzy feelings towards the Soviet Union.)

I grew up close to a local NATO headquarter outside Oslo. When I was fourteen, more than twenty years ago, I once woke up in the middle of the night having heard some loud noice. For a split second, I was absolutely certain that the Russians had dropped the Bomb on the NATO grounds, and that in a moment I'd be dead. I wasn't even afraid, more of a resigned "Oh. That was that, then." Growing up as a neighbour of USSR and an ally of USA during the cold war didn't make me feel safe, it was scary.

When playing GURPS (a roleplaying game produced in USA) recently, one of the players said this about Norway's prime minister: "Bondevik has his tongue so far up Bush's ass that he's tickling his tonsils." There were general nods of agreement around the table.

In March 2004 I participated in a LARP (Live Action Roleplaying, a bunch of people dressing up in costumes and playing "let's pretend"). The setting was a modern, slightly alternate reality, the topic was terrorism, the genre was action sliding into catastrophy. Everybody were portrayed in a negative light - the European terrorists were completely psycho, the Israeli undercover agent was ice cold evil, the Norwegian police and government were spineless cowards - even so, I felt that the portrayal of the American soldiers was unfair and unrealistic. Torturing people just for fun/because of breakdown in discipline? Come on - I may be a rabid Euro commie, but that's a bit too much to believe, even for me.
A few weeks later, the Abu Ghraib scandal broke.

These days, if I notice that a product I'm about to buy is made in America, I'll look around a bit for an alternative. I never did that before the Iraqi war.

The occupation of Iraq started 9th April 2003. That date is a special one in Norway - 9th April 1940, Norway was invaded. I know that it's just a coincidence, but it's still chilling, and extremely weird to know that Norwegian soldiers have taken part in an occupation of another country. (I'm not sure if they're still in Iraq - last time I looked it up, there were a symbolic handful left.)

Before I ventured out on the wide, wild Internet, I used to believe that Americans and Europeans were, despite everything, basically similar. Same cultural background, joined in enjoying a wildly unfair portion of the wealth of the planet, all that. But when grazing various message boards, I discover every now and then some angle that make you seem completely, utterly alien. Not neccessarily bad (although I'm chauvinistic enough to, generally, see my own culture as best :) ), but completely different in an unexpected way.

[SlyFrog]

I'd be a bit uncomfortable in the Netherlands, fearing that I might be murdered in the street by religious extremists. I understand that the level of religious persecution and zealotry over there is truly frightening from the news I read.

Same thing with France. Man, I'd hate to be a jew over there.

[ParentalAdvisory]

How about this. Everyone from every country has their share of assholes, fat people, religious whacko's, right/left/dictatorship government, racial problems, etc... Some countries just have more of it then others.

Someone mentioned that the U.S. is just the bratty brother of the Europeans. I'm comfortable with that. It sure beats the hell out of being the child molesting uncle of the family.

So fuck you all. ;)

[Kyla]

Before I ventured out on the wide, wild Internet, I used to believe that Americans and Europeans were, despite everything, basically similar. Same cultural background, joined in enjoying a wildly unfair portion of the wealth of the planet, all that. But when grazing various message boards, I discover every now and then some angle that make you seem completely, utterly alien. Not neccessarily bad (although I'm chauvinistic enough to, generally, see my own culture as best :) ), but completely different in an unexpected way.

I wanted to chime in to say that I agree. As a liberal American who despises George Bush and his war, I often find myself agreeing with European and Canadian points of view. However, every once in a while, something will happen that makes me shake my head in wonder and reminds me that I am an American. For instance, every time I am amazed to hear about European nations censoring Nazi propaganda, or denying a visa to...whatshisname, that nutty Holocaust denier guy. What about First Amendment rights?!?!

:) I don't want to get into an argument about censorship or anything, that was just an example.

It's been a few years since I was in Europe (last time was in Italy in 1999). Never had any issues because of my nationality, I don't think.

[Johnny L.A.]

The occupation of Iraq started 9th April 2003. That date is a special one in Norway - 9th April 1940, Norway was invaded. I know that it's just a coincidence, but it's still chilling...
Have you seen our helmets? (http://www.imsplus.com/ims37.html) :p ;) :D

[GorillaMan]

However, every once in a while, something will happen that makes me shake my head in wonder and reminds me that I am an American. For instance, every time I am amazed to hear about European nations censoring Nazi propaganda, or denying a visa to...whatshisname, that nutty Holocaust denier guy. What about First Amendment rights?!?!

:) I don't want to get into an argument about censorship or anything...
...nor do I!!!

The "the constitution is correct in all possible ways" attitude is something that is very American. As is the people writing that document were absolute perfection, and the only misunderstanding could be through not interpreting them correctly.

Why doea mainland Europe, that which experienced the Holocaust, have a stronger desire to control Nazi imagery than in America? I'd like to hope this answers itself.

[delphica]

Bad Things:

Too much religion
Blinkered world view
All fat
Too commercial
Frankly mad. See Janet Jackson's tit, and OJ Simpson getting away with murder.
Insanely preoccupied by race
Rubbish food (and this is from an englishman)
That whole "American Hair" thing.


As an American, I agree with most everything on this list except the Insanely preoccupied by race item. Actually, we probably are insanely preoccupied by race, but one of the most striking things about the time I spent working in Europe was the number of Europeans who cited this as a difference between American and Europeans. I am honestly confused by this, I feel like I observed A LOT of bizarre preoccupation with race on the part of my non-American colleagues in the three countries where I spent the most time (France, the UK, Italy -- which I'm sure are as different from each other as they are from the US). I was told very sincerely that America has a shameful race problem (true), even as I heard white Europeans say things about Roma people with vitriol that I've never witnessed from a white American talking about Black people. I'm not saying anyone on any side deserves any medals in this area, only that we can all share the credit, as it were, for a good deal of racial anxiety on a societal level.

As far as individuals go, I had extremely good experiences with my colleagues and was never made to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable because I was from the US. Of course, that could also mean I was woefully clueless, but Americans are happy-go-lucky like that. Plus, we're complacent when travelling because you keep feeding us that great European food.

[yojimbo]

America? Fuck that’s a big question.
The thing about America is that there are so many different aspects to the American experience. It’s like a little continent. Full of countries that while accepting federal leadership have their own history and cultures. They as a whole share core ideals and beliefs based heavily on the founders of the country’s writings. It’s very hard to talk about America without being so general your points become meaningless. So forgive if I’m general.

America is unique in the world. Built mainly by hunger and ambitious immigrants it has an amazing vibrancy about it. Some of the world’s greatest artists, thinkers, fighters and politicians have come from it’s 50 States.

It was concerning to me to see a very large section of the population of the most powerful and influential country in the world support the Iraq war so quickly. The apparent support of policies that dismissed other countries opinions including the UN and arrogantly pushed for war. The re-election of Bush while not surprising was further reason to feel separated from American culture and beliefs.

The apparent strength of right wing, very nationalistic/jingoistic and religious lobbies doesn’t fit well in my brain either.

That said it is still a country that can be held up as a shining light on the planet. Nowhere have so many people been as free to work for their dreams that in modern America even with all the faults in the systems. Every country in the world has faults and inequalities so America is no different in that regard. Humans will be humans after all.

*Yes I know I live in Ireland but I was asked about the US, not the little catholic, corrupt Island I live on ;)

[yojimbo]

What about First Amendment rights?!?!

I fail to see what the provision that Extended to conflicts in which the State is not a participant the provision for a state of emergency to secure the public safety and preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion. (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm) in 1939 has to do with anything ;)

[Kyla]

I fail to see what the provision that Extended to conflicts in which the State is not a participant the provision for a state of emergency to secure the public safety and preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion. (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm) in 1939 has to do with anything ;)

Well, I don't care about your First Amendment. Crazy furriner. :)

[Soul Brother Number Two]

I would also like to quietly, without vitriol, point out what several European posters have already noticed: Americans are frequently being criticized for not knowing anything about the rest of the world, and yet quite a few of the opinions about Americans expressed here reveal that the Europeans who hold those opinions know nothing about America, aside from what the media tells them.

Are you reading the same thread as I am? Aside from the assertion that the War of 1812 was a war of American aggression, what I'm reading here seems spot on and spoken reasonably as well.

[Nic2004]

As an American I'd like to briefly say Thanks for your candid comments. I think it would do well for more Americans to read this input. I think many of us feel the same with regard to the Religious Right and it's influence in US politics, the pre-occupation with racial matters and such. I, for one, never have had a "Well, we saved your ass back in..." type of attitude. I have always felt a warn and accepting feeling to our friends in Europe and Britian and would have hoped it was mutual. Again, thanks for the straight dope.

[Orual]

That whole "American Hair" thing.

What in blue blazes is "American Hair"?


As for the rest, I appreciate the candid commentary, though I feel the need to mention that a goodly percentage of Americans were also against invading Iraq. It wasn't like we could call up the President and tell him to stop.

[dangermom]

I lived in Scandinavia for a while, and encountered some interesting ideas about Americans. I loved it there, but some of the assumptions were a little interesting.

--Americans are all extremely racist. (Often from people who treated Asians or Middle Easterners in very racist ways that absolutely stunned me.)

--Americans don't cook, and eat at McDonalds all the time. (My mom is a health-food nut and excellent cook, and with 5 kids, going out to fast food was a bank-breaking proposition. I could never quite convince them of this.)

--Teenagers are all raised "packed in cotton," that is, coddled and given no real-life experience. On average, a Scandinavian teen is 4 years more mature than an American of the same age. (Undoubtedly true in some cases. Entirely false in most. Does this mean they thought I was 12?)

Anyway, otherwise everything was pretty great, so I'm not complaining or anything.

I don't quite understand this whole 'culture of fear' idea thing. I can't say I've noticed people being very afraid. What is it exactly we're supposed to be doing in our panic? On an everyday, individual level, I mean, not the whole 'War on Terrorism' thing?

[gum]

I'd be a bit uncomfortable in the Netherlands, fearing that I might be murdered in the street by religious extremists. I understand that the level of religious persecution and zealotry over there is truly frightening from the news I read.

Same thing with France. Man, I'd hate to be a jew over there.I agree.

Come on, people. Every country has it's:
Originally posted by owlstretchingtime
Too much religion
Blinkered world view
All fat
Too commercial
Frankly mad. See Janet Jackson's tit, and OJ Simpson getting away with murder.
Insanely preoccupied by race
Rubbish food (and this is from an englishman)
That whole "American Hair" thing.

We have too much religion.
We have a naïve world view.
Didn't I read somewhere that Europeans are getting fatter and fatter?.
Too commercial? The Europeans invented commercialism.
As for frankly mad....Reality TV was invented by Europeans.........
Racism? Don't make me open the European can of worms about that.
Rubbish food made the Europeans fat.
I'm not sure what you mean by American hair, but I recognize a Brit, Frenchman, German and a Dutch from far, far away. ;)

[Maastricht]

I'd be a bit uncomfortable in the Netherlands, fearing that I might be murdered in the street by religious extremists. I understand that the level of religious persecution and zealotry over there is truly frightening from the news I read.

SlyFrog, you reminded me again why I stopped following the news (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=167848).

USA-culture IS sometimes strange to me. But then again, so is the culture from the Christian Party voting people living across the street from me. Perhaps they're more alien to me then the average American would be. But I wouldn't know, because I've never talked in-depth with my neighbours about our personal beliefs. And for a good reason, too. What if we find out we differ fundamentally? I could never go there again to borrow sugar or ask her to babysit my cat.

It is an uniquely (and, I feel, very positive) American trait to discuss your own weaknesses and strengths so openly. This thread is an example. It also makes it easier to doubt and criticize America more then we'd would China or the USSR; those countries don't allow self-critism, not inside and not outside of their borders. Youngsters all over the world are just raised with anti-America rhetoric, copied from America's own anti America rhetoric. European youngsters aren't spoonfed anti-Europe rehetoric or anti Asia retoric, even when there would be just as much arguments for those. (Remember Europe created the whole Israel-hornets nest and dividided Africa and Irac along straight ruler-lines that had to give trouble sooner or later?).

As for me, I think English and American people are cool. You talk just like the cool people on the telly. :) (That's true, actually.).

[owlstretchingtime]

I agree.

Come on, people. Every country has it's:
Originally posted by owlstretchingtime

We have too much religion.
We have a naïve world view.
Didn't I read somewhere that Europeans are getting fatter and fatter?.
Too commercial? The Europeans invented commercialism.
As for frankly mad....Reality TV was invented by Europeans.........
Racism? Don't make me open the European can of worms about that.
Rubbish food made the Europeans fat.
I'm not sure what you mean by American hair, but I recognize a Brit, Frenchman, German and a Dutch from far, far away. ;)

Actually that's just the Dutch. You get murdered by religious loonies, you have an odd world view (too much skunk) You aren't getting fatter but, by god, you're getting taller. You invented Big Brother, your ghettoes are apalling, your food is the worst in Europe (worse than the Germans for God's sake - tasteless cheese etc). And don't get me started on your hair. ;)

As someone who used to travel to America on business a lot and now refuses to, one thing that a lot of Brits have a problem with is that we don't actually realise that America is a foriegn country and is in fact much more "foreign" than France.

This suprises us because we expect to encounter a noisy version of Essex, but in fact everything is very different. The food is dreadful, the beer unspeakable, the life is very odd - you've been taken over by the Bodysnatchers and you live this "stepford" version of life. Your education system produces morons (so does ours, but our private schools are good - your's aint).

You have the best health care in the world - if you can afford it. Your cars are crap, your TV unwatchable (too many adverts) and for the most capitalist place on the globe your customer service skills make Vlad the Imapler look like salesman of the year. You fanny around about race, and actually do nothing about it. And there is something terribly wrong with your hair.

Having said all that I still rather like you. *hugs*

[gum]

hahahahaha :) Too much skunk?
How can you not like our food? Have you ever tried such delicaties as mashed carrots, onions and potatoes, lovingly called 'hutspot'? Or our raw herring?

I really love English hair, though. (http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/life/spring1999/wigs/group-of-judges.jpg)

[UselessGit]

I actually don't notice Americans being any larger than other nationalities in general and find the average American hairdo to be quite satisfcatory--even stunning at times. In fact, I don't believe I've ever been quite as devilshly handsome as during my 'American Night (http://teemingmillions.com/profiles/images/UselessGit/UselessGit_photo4.jpg) ', a coupe of months back (by Thor, I miss that mustache!).

My main bad feelings about America include:

1. The religios factor scares me; a country should not be run by the rules of God--hearing Bush going on about his holy war actually sent shivers down my spine.

2. I know the last elections were close, but they were clear: the majority of Americans wanted the man who had so obviously misled, misinformed and quite frankly lied to them--not to mention your financial perdicament and all those brave soldiers who died for a lie. The elections left me dumfounded, disappointed and scared; four more years... I refuse to believe that Americans don't watch the news or that they have no idea what their administration is doing, so I can only assume they don't care. Either way, this troubles me deeply. That being said, Bush isn't nearly the devil many people paint him as, IMHO. He's just a terrible man for his job ('Bush' meaning the whole Karl Rove puppetmaster conglomerate, of course).

3. The gun thing; there's always the gun thing.

4. Executions. You've stopped executing minors--at least for the time being--but seriously, people: this is 2005 and you are supposed to be the good guys, remember? Add the fact that your country is openly run as a Christian one, and you have a fairly strange and, let's face it, hypocritical situation. Which brings me to my next point.

5. If America were a disease, its symptom would by hypocrisy. To protect freedom, you must waive basic rights; violence on TV is A-OK, while nudity is bound to make your kids go crazy; no-one should have nuclear weapons, except for the USA and its friends; all humans have the same rights, unless there is the merest inkling of a suggestion of a shadow of a hint that they might be terrorists, in which case they have no rights at all. Just to take a few examples.

I am mostly amused by Americans' sense of superiority (education, health and wellfare anyone?) so that really doesn't bother me, but their apparent inability to get my jokes does. I absolutely love New Yorkers, mostly because they love my jokes (or, at least, are polite enough to laugh out loud) and are just friendly, sensible people. Someone mentioned that young people in the US are 'younger' than their European coutnerparts, which makes sense to me; everyone under 23 or so (from the US) looks like a teen IMHO and I've actually started to try and hide my real age from my American clients and customers, as they don't seem to trust young people as well as... erm.. older people (I'm 25 but I started the company at 21 so I feel that I can be trusted by now). In my country, a lot of kids start working at 13 or 14, so that may be a factor. Also, I've noticed that English youths look even younger--English youths I've seen look about the same at 22-23 as Icelandic youths look at 14-15 (the difference is especially noticable in the females) so maybe we just look old (but good, mind you).

Now.. I really like Americans, despite all the abovementioned. I meet a lot of Americans in my line of work and I've never met one I didn't like--which is quite a bit more than I can say for Italy (shudder), France or the immensely boring Germany, to take a few examples (it's not a language thing; I'm omnilingual, you see). I have a sneaky suspicion that a portion of Americans either don't know about the rest of the world or hate it too much to visit, though (the Bible Belt factor), so I wouldn't know about local Americans but I absolutely, unconditionally love American tourists, especially New Yorkers. I can't wait to visit New York but I'll have to wait until I grow up, it seems; it's not that it's too dangerous for me but there's just way too much hassle at the moment.

To be fair, the USA is largely to thank for my countrys staggering rise from being one of the worlds poorest countries around 1900, to being the 8th richest (per capita, of course) in the world today, so we're probably a little more pro-America than most of Europe. Oh, and half of us live on the North American continent, so we're geographically related, to top it off.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes; couldn't be bothered to spell-check.

[Odesio]

What in blue blazes is "American Hair"?


Here in the states we call it combed or groomed.

Marc

[Mehitabel]

...well, you do know us nice New Yorkers live in a state with strict gun laws and haven't executed anybody since 1976 (and the DP was just shut down again, with nobody getting it, even the guy whose 7-year-old neighbor was found buried in his basement)? Massachusetts hasn't done it since 1948 (while Canada was still stringing 'em up 20 years later) and some states not since the 19th century.

[Odesio]

5. If America were a disease, its symptom would by hypocrisy.


Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy is?


To protect freedom, you must waive basic rights;


What basic rights? Free speech, the ability to worship freely, the right to peaceful assebly, the right to petition the government?


violence on TV is A-OK, while nudity is bound to make your kids go crazy;


That's not an example of hypocrisy it's just an example of silly standards.


no-one should have nuclear weapons, except for the USA and its friends;


That's not hypocrisy. It's one thing for Great Britian to have nukes but do we really think it's ok for North Korea or Iran having them?


all humans have the same rights, unless there is the merest inkling of a suggestion of a shadow of a hint that they might be terrorists, in which case they have no rights at all. Just to take a few examples.


Unfortunately just because we might believe something to be true doesn't mean it applies under US law. As we've been reminded by plenty of foreign dopers the Constitution doesn't apply outside the United States.

Marc

[Kyla]

I have a sneaky suspicion that a portion of Americans either don't know about the rest of the world or hate it too much to visit, though (the Bible Belt factor

I like to think that no one in the US hates the rest of the world, but you're absolutely right about the not knowing anything about it factor. It's disturbing.

OTOH, I don't get the feeling that Europeans know very much about the US either. Sadly, it's probably our own fault, thanks to our media. For instance, the idea that Americans are all racist and totally preoccupied by race probably comes from movies. It's absolutely true that race is a very touchy point in American society (given our history, how could it be otherwise?), which makes it a good source of conflict in movies, books, and TV. But in daily life, people don't make that much of a big deal out of it. We wouldn't be able to function as a society if we were really that preoccupied with race! And still, you see it in movies and TV shows all the time. (Like that new "Guess Who" movie, f'r instance.) It's no wonder people who aren't as familiar with actual Americans would think we spend all our time freaking out about not stepping on each others' toes.

[UselessGit]

Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy is?

I looked into this a bit for you and it does seem that the word I'm looking for is a cross between 'hypocrisy' and 'double standard'--the nuke thing being hypocritical, for example. I sincerely apologize for the heinous misuse of your beautiful language, sir, and cry your pardon. I don't think this is a debate, so I'll leave it at that, tempted as I am not to.

Mehitabel: Well, that would just be another reason for me to love you guys! No executions since 1976 sounds darn impressive.

We abolished slavery soon after converting to Lutherism, around the year 1000, and the death penalty was thrown out in 1830 when we, the barbaric Viking nation that we are, decided it was inhumane. My government has never killed a child or someone mentally retarded, for example, but we don't claim to be a model of righteousness, a shining beacon of hope to the opressed masses in strategically important countries outside of Afrika, a land of the free or even a home to the brave--we have neither the right nor will to tell other countries how to behave, so we tactfully refrain therefrom.

I do apologize for the three sentences above being 'snooty' (not to mention stretching the sentential boundaries re length & punctuation), although that's probably the wrong word... any suggestions, Marc?

[Mehitabel]

Whoops...actually the DP was abolished in NY (and the rest of the country) in 1996, but NY State hadn't executed anyone since 1963. 1948 for Massachusetts. And these are two of the most populous and important states in the nation.

You do know that the death penalty is a state thing, right? Only a few states allowed execution of the mentally retarded and juveniles, right? And it's impossible for the voters of one state to go and force people in another to change their laws? We're very mobile. Don't like gay marriage? You're free to picket or lobby the MA Legislature, or move to Kansas. Want stricter gun laws? You can move to Vermont or DC. And so on.

Just wanted to point out that you can't lump fifty states together and say "America does this" or "America believes that". Now, there is indeed a DP on the federal level, but it's been used only twice since 1963, and one of them was domestic terrorist Tim McVeigh in 2001. Here's (http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/federal_death_penalty.html) a good survey.

[Mehitabel]

D'oh--I meant 1965. And the DP was reinstated in NY State in 1995, but it's never been used and is currently being seriously challenged again. In 1976 the Supreme Court allowed states to use it again.

[UselessGit]

Ooh, that's actually a very good point, Mehitabel; I have to keep reminding myself not to look at the USA as one big country but 50 smaller ones, and I daresay my fellow Europeans should be doing the same. It's just a little difficult for most of us to grasp the US's sheer size, not least if we're from tiny islands ourselves.

For the record, I did know all these things but the OP asks about America--which is probably good since 50 smaller threads would be.. erm.. multiple--and not individual states. I think most of my views are fairly common, although they are admittedly more sweeping than Hexia de Trix's besom and can hardly be considered as fair criticism of the US as a whole. Have you guys ever considered splitting the states up? Generalizing about, say, Kentucky is much easier and fairer than the whole US of A, no? Dang those German-beer-drinking Kentuckians and all their turtles of snapping! *shakes fist*

Again, I am not debating the DP's existence, its scope, its acceptance in American society, its validity (Marc?) or anything else--this is just my honest opinion. The death penalty, simply, is there--it's a stain on your society and I don't like it. Not one bit. Sorry.

[Odesio]

I looked into this a bit for you and it does seem that the word I'm looking for is a cross between 'hypocrisy' and 'double standard'--the nuke thing being hypocritical, for example.

Irrational standards or perhaps askewed priorities might be more befitting.

Marc

[SlyFrog]

My government has never killed a child or someone mentally retarded . . . .[/quote[

While I may agree with you politically, you do realize that by stating these examples, along with a presumption that your country's viewpoints on these issues are "right," you are effectively -

[QUOTE=UselessGit]. . . for example, but we don't claim to be a model of righteousness, a shining beacon of hope to the opressed masses in strategically important countries outside of Afrika, a land of the free or even a home to the brave--we have neither the right nor will to tell other countries how to behave, so we tactfully refrain therefrom.

Contradicting yourself in the second quoted paragraph. You make smug statements about "killing children," but you don't claim to be a model of righteousness, blah blah. By definition, when you criticize another country's actions, you are holding your own viewpoint to be correct, and thereby better.

I mean, let's turn this around, just for the sake of argument. My government doesn't give murders free room and board for the rest of their lives at the expense of society, and shy away from exacting the appropriate punishment/deterrent because the person is a year or two less than some arbitrarily set age wherein one is deemed "an adult." My country believes that those who have the mental capacity to commit the ultimate crime of murder also have the mental capacity to be punished for such crime, just as their victims were harmed by the crime irrespective of the mental capacity of the perpetrator. Fortunately, we have a belief system that we deem important, and rather than sit back and watch the world flow by and become uglier and uglier, we roll up our sleeves and attempt to do something to better it, blah blah blah.

I think one of the things that annoys me most about the "boastful" Amercian's line is that it is really hard to be accused of being brash and bold, and attempting to impose your views on the world, by those who appear to be brashly and boldly attack your every move because it does not agree with their worldview.

I do not believe that the issue is the U.S. having strongly held beliefs that others disagree with. I hear enough yammering from Europeans to believe that they have the very same problem. They just lack the power they had 100 years ago to impress it upon others, and they are now afraid that the U.S. will impress upon them.

[hildea]

By definition, when you criticize another country's actions, you are holding your own viewpoint to be correct, and thereby better.My own viewpoint, yes, but not neccessarily my country's viewpoint. For instance, I can criticise EU for a shitty policy towards refugees and asylum seekers, while feeling that my own country can give it a run for the money in the shittness department.

I do not believe that the issue is the U.S. having strongly held beliefs that others disagree with. I hear enough yammering from Europeans to believe that they have the very same problem. They just lack the power they had 100 years ago to impress it upon others, and they are now afraid that the U.S. will impress upon them.I'm sure that's an important reason for the uneasiness a lot of people feel towards USA. (The shape of your helmets doesn't help :) ) When Norway's government does something specatcularily shitty or stupid, only a handful of million people are affected, and the rest of you ususally don't even notice (unless big charismatic sea mammals are involved...). USA's government has the power to fuck up things all over the world. I'll freely admit that if I had the power to magically make EU replace USA as the world's superpower, I'd need a long and hard think to pick the least of two evils.

What in blue blazes is "American Hair"?
The English (note, I'm not saying "brits" here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they're skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl? :p

[Zoe]

Mehitabel: Only a few states allowed execution of the mentally retarded and juveniles, right?

I think I am correct that execution for crimes committed by juveniles is no longer allowed in any states.

I've found that most of the comments from non-Americans in this thread have been quite reasonable. I have to keep reminding myself that the media does give a lot of attention to the loudmouths and that may make the religious right seem stronger than they really are. I'm certainly hoping that is the case.

Mycroft, I can certainly support your main points. But even though you have extensive experience with living in the United States, I must disagree with you on two opinions:

(1)The complete lack of culture in large parts of the country.

If you really believe this to be true, could you be more specific? Even little fishing villages have opera houses and rural communities have music clubs and give birth to writers and artists. Further, there is always the question of what constitutes "culture."

(2)The "American Dream" is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.

I've known too many exceptions to this rule personally for this to be true. (Maybe inherited wealth is more likely to happen in certain parts of the country that I am not as familiar with.) But I've seen "the American Dream" happen again and again right under my nose.

[Mycroft Holmes]

Mycroft, I can certainly support your main points. But even though you have extensive experience with living in the United States, I must disagree with you on two opinions:

(1)The complete lack of culture in large parts of the country.

If you really believe this to be true, could you be more specific? Even little fishing villages have opera houses and rural communities have music clubs and give birth to writers and artists. Further, there is always the question of what constitutes "culture."

(2)The "American Dream" is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.

I've known too many exceptions to this rule personally for this to be true. (Maybe inherited wealth is more likely to happen in certain parts of the country that I am not as familiar with.) But I've seen "the American Dream" happen again and again right under my nose.

By lack of culture I don't mean that there are no opera houses, music clubs, etc. I just think they are "used" a lot less than here in Europe. I know, I'm generalizing, and usually I hate to do that, but there is a kernel of truth in what I meant to say. Clearly there are fans of classical music, theater, cinema whatever in most areas of the U.S. But the general feeling I get is that more people (when compared to Europe) get their entertainment from reality TV (even though this was a Dutch invention), soap operas and TV in general.

As to (2), there are always exceptions. But I think the odds of going from rags to riches are no higher in the U.S. than they are in Europe. There are plenty of people in Europe who have also become successful on their own due to hard work, a good education and maybe a bit of luck too. What I don't like is the fact that the U.S. is often seen as the "land of opportunity", yet there are so many poor and disenfranchised who never get a chance. Note: we have that here in Europe also, but probably to a lesser extent. Yet in the U.S. the less well-to-do are often told: "It's your fault. You should be running your own company and own two homes by the time you're fifty. If not, it's because you're lazy and shifty".

For an example of this, look at this trainwreck (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310991) of a thread, where inkleberry is told by some people it's her own damn fault she's poor and living in a bad neighborhood, because she decided to have a baby (which was not planned). I also agree with her, when she says this:

6 weeks of maternal leave with partial pay is obscene. Day care is exorbanent, not regulated as well as one might hope or expect, and frankly, not a place I would ever leave my son.

This country shafts its working class.

This is an example of a country ignoring it's future (the children) and only thinking about the present.

I think that's my main gripe with the U.S. The country is so wrapped up in the "here and now" that very little thought is given to future generations. One of the symptoms of this is the huge consumption of natural resources compared to other first-world countries.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I'd be a bit uncomfortable in the Netherlands, fearing that I might be murdered in the street by religious extremists. I understand that the level of religious persecution and zealotry over there is truly frightening from the news I read.

You forgot to put a smiley at the end of that. Some people might think you're being serious.

Either that, or you need some new sources of news. :D

Here in the Netherlands you need to watch out for bicyclists trying to run you over, not murderous religious extremists.

[dangermom]

By lack of culture I don't mean that there are no opera houses, music clubs, etc. I just think they are "used" a lot less than here in Europe. I know, I'm generalizing, and usually I hate to do that, but there is a kernel of truth in what I meant to say. Clearly there are fans of classical music, theater, cinema whatever in most areas of the U.S. But the general feeling I get is that more people (when compared to Europe) get their entertainment from reality TV (even though this was a Dutch invention), soap operas and TV in general.

I dunno about that. I grew up in a small-ish town, and I live in a medium-sized town, and in both there is quite a bit of 'culture,' even though the big cities are hours away. Here in my city, I can see performances from all over the world, listen to many different local music groups, and see (if not operas) operettas. We don't run to a real orchestra, but we have several small ensembles of different types. To be honest, I see more classy performances here than I ever did when I lived in the CA Bay Area, because they're so much easier to get to and don't cost much. The venue is usually crowded.

Sure, of course we have TV-watchers too. But that's not all there is. (Another honest note: when I lived in Scandinavia with another family, there was a lot more TV-watching going on than in my own family, and I don't remember seeing a lot of high culture performances, let alone opera.)


I don't know, maybe you're right, but I've also had kind of a hard time seeing my own completely American family in this thread. I mean, I come from a very ordinary middle-class small-town family, (and I'm married to a guy whose family is only less well-off and sophisticated) but we do know a bit about the rest of the world; of 5 kids, all of us have lived overseas and have studied at least one other language. (OK, my one brother is a little odd; I'm not even sure how many languages he knows.) Of my 5 sisters-in-law (on either side), one is a US citizen. Of people I know, my family is a little on the diverse side, but we're not exactly unusual IME either. So looking at all these statements of "Americans are really insular and uncultured," well, I know there's plenty of that, but there's lots on the other side of the scale as well--and perhaps it's changing faster then we generally realize.

*shrug* I'm not trying to say everyone is wrong; just that it's not been my own experience and I think it may be changing, and it's not like I come from some incredibly cultured New York family.

[Fortean]

It's interesting to note that the UK at least has recently opted for a OMG THE MERRIKENS ARE TAKING OVER mentality just as much as some people in the US are scared out of their tiny minds about Anti-Americanism, the new threat to everything we hold sacred. So it's an interesting problem. Some people in the US act stupid cause they're scared, everyone else is scared cos they're acting stupidly, calls them big stupid poopyheads, US gets more defensive, und so weiter.

Personally what I perceive as the main problem is what someone else (probably owlstretching) said - that Europeans expect the US to be very similar to Europe, and because it isn't, its scary. For example, here are all the things that we sometimes have different opinions about - bearing in mind of course that it is VERY VERY GENERALISED INDEED:

- abortion
- guns
- big cars vs small ones
- the environment
- socialised medicine
- socialism in general
- liberal religion
- mobile phones
- work/life balance
- evolution
- stem cells
- euthanasia
- heritage
- teh gays
- libertarianism
- patriotism
- drugs
- sex
- alcohol
- cheese
- marmite
- shepherd's pie
- roundabouts
- feminism
- death penalty
- yep, I've run out of steam


Especially freaky for us brits, who get loads of news and cultural references from the US, yet have a weird uncanny valley thing going on in terms of personality.

[Malacandra]

The English (note, I'm not saying "brits" here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they're skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl? :p

Meh. Say what you like; your words have not much sting. We've had you filed under "Mostly Harmless" ever since Harald Hardrada got his comeuppance, and you talk about us pining for lost glories?

Btw, any truth in the rumour that on the Eurovision song contest, your entry is now officially titled "Norway - nul points" :D :cool: :wally

[Johnny L.A.]

The English (note, I'm not saying "brits" here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe
I've seen lots of very attractive English women. If one would have me, I'm ready to relocate! :D

[owlstretchingtime]

The English (note, I'm not saying "brits" here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they're skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl? :p

Pining for the Fjords are we?

There are some races that are generally more pretty than us, but norway is not one of them! Funny looking hairy faced people with odd looking jumpers and plastic shoes (Incidentally "Odd" is a christian name in Norway - "Hello I'm Odd. I'm from Norway"), the men are bloody funny looking as well.

They're basically spare swedes, with the fun-time attributes of the Finns, and the dress sense of the Russians. And they eat raw fish. And pay £10 for a beer.

It's not just the ones called Odd that are wrong 'uns!

[Rashak Mani]

I used to believe that Americans and Europeans were, despite everything, basically similar. Same cultural background, joined in enjoying a wildly unfair portion of the wealth of the planet, all that. But when grazing various message boards, I discover every now and then some angle that make you seem completely, utterly alien. Not neccessarily bad ...
I have this feeling too... better off Brazilians have quite a lot in common with Europeans and we also thought with Americans. I lived abroad half my life and so I feel I understand the differences between europeans and americans. I think individual americans aren't that different... but the values, culture and political system in the US are further from Europe and Latin America than ever before. Its like its another wierd western culture... detached from the mainstream West... naturally blue states aren't as hardcore.

What I venture most do admire about America is how the economic system does work... free enterprise, etc... They economic dynamism is incredible and with it all sorts of stuff one can buy and have. All sorts of cultural products from Movies to RPGs are american...

[SlyFrog]

You forgot to put a smiley at the end of that. Some people might think you're being serious.

Either that, or you need some new sources of news. :D

Here in the Netherlands you need to watch out for bicyclists trying to run you over, not murderous religious extremists.

I was trying to make a point that nearly every country can be made into a shithole if you read the daily news, much as I think too many Europeans think that most of the U.S. is some type of bible-thumping warzone based on the biased and sensationalist material that is out there.

For example, in response to your statement, it's my understanding from recent events that what you need to watch out for in the Netherlands not being run over by bicyclists, but instead being murdered by religious extemists while you are riding a bicycle.

[eleanorigby]

I think it's a fair cop.

I am an American and have been to Europe twice and UK twice (not all at the same times).

I feel very at home in UK and in Germany and some of France (don't know French, so that makes it more difficult for me to feel comopletley at home).

But then, I was raised with a world view, and never taught (at home) to consider USA the be all and end all of everything--a good, even great thing, among other good things. So, perhaps I am not typical.

Please just know that there are many of us here that are as concerned about the enviroment, women's and family's rights, socialized medicine, the rise of teh reigious Right etc as you are.

"Socialism" is a very dirty word in America--dunno why, really--IMO, people equate it with Communism, a nother whole ball of wax, indeed.

As for the death penalty--yep, I think it is sick as hell --especially someone who is mentally retarded or under age. But, as you can see, not all Americans hold that view. My former governor, who has been plagued by scandal (and rightly so) did do one shining thing in his time: he froze all executions in Illinois d/t a study done by students at Northwestern Uni. The current governor has upheld that ban (thank god).

I agree in general with the statements re: poor education, but also think that there is more good here than you may be aware of. Certainly, I benefitted from an excellent high school and uni. But overall, students barely get any US history and civics now, much less European--Asian et al is completely ignored, except for things like the opium trade and Pearl Harbor. Sad, really, when we ahve shrunk the world to where we all need to know more about one another.

And last thing: I love my long, thick, shiny, American hair. :D

[Strainger]

(so does ours, but our private schools are good - your's aint). (my bold) So you didn't go to private school then?

[Liberal]

And I’m staring askance at the hold religious superstition still has and its pervasive brake on progressive social policies.It really hasn't always been socially non-progressive. Many religious people, like myself, favor social policies so progressive that even enlightened people might call them extreme. Child labor laws, women's suffrage, abolition of slavery, and civil rights were all championed by people who were religious.

Granted, they were opposed by religious people as well. So, perhaps it is the case that religion has nothing to do with one's stance on social progression. I mean, Jesus Himself was quite religious, but He had women disciples. He declared He would free the slaves. And He thought children were so important that He said heaven is like them. Meanwhile, His detractors were also religious, and they considered Him to be a political threat.

Frankly, I don't really identify with the label "religious superstition". I think it's bad luck to be superstitious. But I know that religion, like anything else, can be used for good or evil. If a person's religion is to be kind and charitable, he will likely advocate social progression. But if it is cynical and hostile, he will likely advocate social stagnation.

[smiling bandit]

Yes, I'm American

What I always get out of these threads are the two following ideas:

1) Most Europeans really do not understand who we are. They tend to vacciliate around: "a source of much good, much evil, and much crap".

2) Most Europeans don't understand what America is. They think of it like some European child, without understanding that we are all grown up.

3) Most Europeans talk about Americans in sterotypical terms and grow extremely angry when Americans talk about them in sterotypical terms.

4) Most Europeans are wierd from the view of the American left and plainnuts from the view f the American right. Europeans say that America is too far right, but I'd argue the accurate thing to say is that American politics have nothing to do with European politics, right or left, any more than they relate to China's right or left.

Just sayin', is all.

[GorillaMan]

1) Most Europeans really do not understand who we are. They tend to vacciliate around: "a source of much good, much evil, and much crap".
It's true that most Europeans don't know what 'normal Americans' are like. But then, most American that have visited Europe haven't seen 'normal Europe'.

Most Europeans don't understand what America is. They think of it like some European child, without understanding that we are all grown up.
I for one hate the "Americans have no history" attitude. (Coming from a musical background, I know that pointing out that the Chicago Symphony is older than any British orchestra silences more than a few smartarses.) I like to think of America as a child that's had no choice but to grow up quickly. Streetwise, but at times prone to making bad or short-sighted decisions.

3) Most Europeans talk about Americans in sterotypical terms and grow extremely angry when Americans talk about them in sterotypical terms.
Yep, this is a problem. America is presented to us in stereotypical terms, by Fox, Hollywood, our own media, [i]et al[i]. As has been said (I think in this thread), America is a foreign country which people here expect to be familiar. It isn't. It's very different. And the further mistake is to expect America to be homogenous - while we revel in the differences within and between our own countries.

[Balduran]

It really hasn't always been socially non-progressive. Many religious people, like myself, favor social policies so progressive that even enlightened people might call them extreme. Child labor laws, women's suffrage, abolition of slavery, and civil rights were all championed by people who were religious.

There was an interesting article in the Canadian "Globe and Mail" a few months back where the athiest author grudgingly proposed that most social reform was due to religious groups and most of the great criminals of the world were athiests.

[Zoe]

Mycroft: What I don't like is the fact that the U.S. is often seen as the "land of opportunity", yet there are so many poor and disenfranchised who never get a chance.

But the poor do get a chance in the United States. They are certainly at a disadvantage, but if they want to make their lives better and pull themselves out, there are ways.

I was a teacher in an inner city high school and I saw many success stories. The most extreme case that I knew personally was a Black student who lived with her father who was a barber. (She went to another school, but I got to know her through forensic competition; I was a coach and a judge.) That was 35 years ago. She became the world's first Black female billionaire.

When I was eighteen a knew a young minister who was 27. He was the first person who ever really talked to me about how "inconvenient" (his word) to be Black. (That was in 1961.) He eventually became the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.

One of my sister's friends (who grew up in a middle income family in a small town in rural West Tennessee) won a Tony for her leading role in a Broadway play.

This happens all the time here. It may happen just as frequently in Europe, but don't say that people don't have a chance in the States.

[Mycroft Holmes]

It may happen just as frequently in Europe, but don't say that people don't have a chance in the States.

That's not really what I meant. That's why I used the qualifier "so many". I didn't mean that there are no chances at all. I just meant that the odds aren't quite as good as they are made out to be.

I was referring more to the (common, but not neccessarily prevailing) attitude that very often the people themselves are at fault if they are poor. Sometimes the universe just keeps kicking you in the "cojones" and it's not your fault. In the U.S. people keep saying "get a job", "get a life", etc. but a lot of times there are no jobs, there is no better life without help from others.

There just seems to be very little compassion in some parts of American society. As always, there are exceptions: people who volunteer much of their time and resources to help others. However, in general it seems to be a very "dog eat dog" society.

[roger thornhill]

Without the United States of America, the world would be a less safe and a lesser place. The excesses (in terms of litigiousness, PC madness, handguns, and craptaculous TV programmes - not excluding the GOD Channel, which would be what they showed me in Orwell's Room 101 - my brain would atrophy after a few hours of that "discourse") are best seen as the other side of a glorious coin. America is founded upon liberty, and there is simply no other more important quality in the world, besides perhaps truth. (Not for nothing did Jesus say "You will now truth, and truth will make you free.")

My visit to the States a couple of years ago exceeded my expectations. (How often can you say that of a holiday?) Americans must remain vigilant, remain (self-)critical, and never tire in seeking to strengthen their institutions. The rest of the world depends upon it.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I was trying to make a point that nearly every country can be made into a shithole if you read the daily news, much as I think too many Europeans think that most of the U.S. is some type of bible-thumping warzone based on the biased and sensationalist material that is out there.

I realized the point you were making very well. I also agree with you 100%. Almost all the media here in Europe are very guilty of what you describe. The general population of the U.S. is a lot more open to new ideas and a lot more free thinking than they are made out to be here. The problem is that the "bible thumpers" and similiar groups are given so much attention, yet they are a just a very vocal minority. I guess it's the old adage of the squeaky wheel.

it's my understanding from recent events that what you need to watch out for in the Netherlands not being run over by bicyclists, but instead being murdered by religious extemists while you are riding a bicycle.

well, I just had my bike stolen recently, so I guess I'm safe. Also, since I'm German, I consider it a small retribution for what happened here between 1940 and 1945. Now they can't keep asking if I have their grandfather's bike, because I did my part. :D

[hildea]

Regarding the American Dream: I don't doubt that if you're really smart and strong, you can succeed at whatever you want even if you're starting as dirt poor. But most people (poor and rich) aren't really smart or strong, and most people who start off poor don't become rich. That's true for all parts of the planet, of course, just not USA. But I have the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that the myth that anyone can succeed is pretty strong in USA, that there's a gut feeling that if you're poor, it's your fault. That's not, in my opinion, a good thing.

Scandinavia has, maybe, a bit too much of the opposite culture - a tendency to view success as somewhat suspect. "You shall not think you are better than us", as the the Jante law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jante_Law) says. (I can hear you island dwellers nodding sagely now, muttering "That explains a lot" :) Oh, and thanks for the (deserved) endearments. I'd respond with some witty and scatching retort, but I'm suffering an acute conflict between my genes and my contemporary culture. The latter is demanding that I uphold our proud tradition of a smug "We're world champions in niceness, but we're too polite to brag about it" attitude, while the first is yelling at me to get out the battle axe. :D

[gum]

Someone said: "I see America as a younger brother"
So do I.
A younger brother that has grown and turned successful.

And has to endure a lot of sibling rivalry.

eleanorigby is correct. It's a fair cop. Every country has it's advantages and dis-advantages. Because America is the bigger and leading brother, it gets more criticized.

[I knew exactly what you meant, SlyFrog. :)]

[eleanorigby]

.

eleanorigby is correct.


gonna print this out and frame it.......



:)

[Odesio]

Regarding the American Dream: I don't doubt that if you're really smart and strong, you can succeed at whatever you want even if you're starting as dirt poor. But most people (poor and rich) aren't really smart or strong, and most people who start off poor don't become rich.


I think the idea of the American Dream has changed over the years. At at time when the poor in Europe had very few prospects they could come to the United States and fine more opportunities. There was a time when we were giving away land free of cost to those who would put it to good use.

I don't believe the American Dream is about becoming wealthy. I think it's about owning your own home and being finacially stable and secure. You don't have to be wealthy for that.

Marc

[Arwin]

eleanorigby is correct. It's a fair cop. Every country has it's advantages and dis-advantages. Because America is the bigger and leading brother, it gets more criticized.

I'm not sure it is just that though. It's more that the leading brother is doing a lot of things that impacts the rest of the world.

Mind you, there is enough to criticise in Europe, but Europe is still comparatively humble and unorganised when it comes to foreign policy. Which is part of my biggest criticism of Europe in that respect.

For me personally, I would also like to add that the reason that I might criticise the U.S. more on this board than Europe, is because I'm here to discuss these problems with Americans, and this board is largely American so it's a self-perpetuating thing. You'll see that whenever a European issue makes the board, I'm there also and I'm not afraid to criticize parts of Europe at all. Rather the opposite.

(However, I do admit that I like my own little country in terms of politics - not that I don't have heaps to bitch about our politicians, but compared to most of even the Western world I feel that the last 10-15 years we've been a reasonably open-minded, no-nonsense society that lacks hypocricy to a seemingly greater extent than most other countries, and I like how we deal with issues like drugs, euthanasia, abortion, prostitution and so on. I have had several opportunities to live somewhere else and did so for a year, but often when I travel abroad I notice a contrast - mind you, there are large sections of the U.S. that are very much like this place here and I know from experience that people from the U.S. feel right at home here and vice versa, providing you go to the right places)

I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a thread in which we, representatives from other countries, post articles on the U.S. from our national newspapers, and perhaps also give summaries of what goes on here. Would there be anyone at all interested in something like that?

[carnivorousplant]

IF you accept that a territory can ceed from a country and make its own decisions,

Texas tried it again around 1862.
Didn't work that time.
:)

[Knowed Out]

As regards Americans being seen as overly religious: I think it's because like any other loudmouth, the overzealous are the ones who get on TV the most often. That's definitely not a representative sample of our people. Well, not me anyway.

There's very few of my friends are relatives I would describe as overly religious, and even those few know where to draw the line. That's not to say I haven't known religious fanatics, but they would have been fanatics even if there were no religion.

But I think I can safely say I have never had my lifestyle restricted, altered, or changed because of oppressive religious fervor. Political, yes. Corporate, yes. Religious? No. God didn't fire me from my job or make me hook up my house to city water.

When I think of a country that's controlled by religious imposition, I think of Muslim countries, or Europe during the Middle Ages. I heard that church attendance is down to about 2% in England nowadays. Maybe in about 3 or 400 years, American will follow suit.

[gum]

hehehehe, eleanorigby. Good feeling, huh. :)

Arwin <snip> " but Europe is still comparatively humble and unorganised when it comes to foreign policy."</snip> You can't be serious?
*coughfrancecough*

and
I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a thread in which we, representatives from other countries, post articles on the U.S. from our national newspapers, and perhaps also give summaries of what goes on here. Would there be anyone at all interested in something like that

But articles from which newspapers?
You'll agree with me that 'De Telegraaf' [right-wing] or 'Het Parool' [left-wing] have different views on America, don't you?

I just read a site about anti-America bias of the BBC.
http://www.reason.com/links/links081803.shtml

So, in order to give a general idea about how Europeans think of America, we'd need to post articles out of every newspaper. And I, for one, refuse to read 'De Telegraaf' :)

[carnivorousplant]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a thread in which we, representatives from other countries, post articles on the U.S. from our national newspapers, and perhaps also give summaries of what goes on here. Would there be anyone at all interested in something like that?

Sure, I would.
But then, I'm a Democrat. :)

[Arwin]

hehehehe, eleanorigby. Good feeling, huh. :)

Arwin You can't be serious?
*coughfrancecough*

I said relatively. I also wrote somewhere that France and the U.S. are sometimes remarkably alike. :D But France isn't Europe, and merely an example of how Europe doesn't function as a political entity on the global platform yet. What happened with Joeshenko in the Ukraine recently was a rare example of where we did in fact exert some fairly coordinated influence.

So, in order to give a general idea about how Europeans think of America, we'd need to post articles out of every newspaper. And I, for one, refuse to read 'De Telegraaf' :)

Then again, that newspaper is available for free on the internet. You could look in the Volkskrant and NRC Handelsblad, and for important articles check the other newspapers for significant differences. On foreign matters, differences between these newspapers are often very small.

[Rashak Mani]

I heard that church attendance is down to about 2% in England nowadays. Maybe in about 3 or 400 years, American will follow suit.
I surely hope it comes sooner... in my country too...

[bump]

I don't believe the American Dream is about becoming wealthy. I think it's about owning your own home and being finacially stable and secure. You don't have to be wealthy for that.


I hadn't thought of the American Dream quite like that.... the way I always understood it was that you weren't bound to anything- if you were willing to work hard and take some chances, there wasn't really a career that wasn't open to you.

How many 19th century British Prime Ministers first worked as rail splitters? How many French generals were hide tanner's sons? How many European industrialists started out as penniless immigrants? Not many, I'll wager. Yet here in the US, it was possible.

With that lack of institutional barriers and a sort of meritocracy, comes a remarkable lack of class when compared to the rest of the world, I think. In my family alone, we've gone from uneducated longshoremen, butchers and coal miners to a firmly middle/upper middle class family where everyone is expected to go to college and hopefully get some kind of postgraduate degree. All that in 4 generations too.

I know many other people whose families have done similar things, and they come from all ethnic groups- black, hispanic, asian, etc...

I think it's not so much that Europe doesn't have similar opportunities, but it's that Europe is catching up to the US in that regard.

[owlstretchingtime]

Another thing for us europeans (God I hate that word!) to remember is that whilst we may have a mental image of the "typical yank" based on the ones we encounter here (Gap shirt, daft hat, shorts, American Hair etc) the plain fact is that these people aren't in anyway typical.

I believe that only about 30% of the tea-dodgers have got passpoerts and also that their holiday time is very short in comparison with ours (they get one week's leave every four years and a day off for Kwaanza). So in fact we never come accross the "typical yank" unless we go there.

There a dead mixed bunch - New Yorkers all act like they're on crystal meth, People in LA are just mental, the mid west is VERY. ODD. INDEED., the south full of odd looking banjo pluckers and so on, they are far from homogenous.

[GorillaMan]

How many 19th century British Prime Ministers first worked as rail splitters? How many French generals were hide tanner's sons? How many European industrialists started out as penniless immigrants? Not many, I'll wager. Yet here in the US, it was possible.
Ignoring the 'immigrant' aspect (which is a specifically American element to a rags-to-riches story), off the top of my head there's George Stephenson (son of a collier, became one of the founding fathers of railways), and Ramsay McDonald (illegitimate son of a ploughman, became the first Labour PM. Oh, and Margaret Thatcher's father was a self-made shopkeeper.

[owlstretchingtime]

Jim Calaghan (only man to hold all four great offices of state) was born in a council house in Portsmouth and joined the Merchant Navy when he was sixteen. (Not 19th Century I know but still pretty good going).

[Colophon]

I have only spent about 2 weeks in America (1 week in LA/San Francisco and 1 week in South Beach FL, so hardly representative of the heartlands!) but here are a few of my thoughts.

I like America, and Americans. As others have said, they tend to be friendly, polite, and optimistic - they think the best of people and, it seems, like to see others do well. (We Brits, on the other hand, often tend to think the worst of people and mistrust successful folk.) The flip side of this is that I think Americans can be rather naive - they see "the American way of doing things" as the natural way, and probably the right way. There seems to be less understanding that the USA is just one of a couple of hundred countries on this planet, each with their own thoughts and way of doing stuff.

The chief thing that worries me is the power of religion and particularly religious loonies. I find it rather ironic that the Bush government is trying to spread democracy in the Middle East and get rid of religious fundamentalist rule, when there is a danger that religious fundamentalism will take over the USA.

I also find it odd the things that are considered "obscene". Innocuous words such as "tits" are (I'm told) taboo on telly. The outcry over Janet Jackson's not even bare nipple appearing on TV screens was truly remarkable to this outsider, especially when you consider the vast amount of violence shown on TV. The idea that a human nipple is somehow more shocking than graphic scenes of murder is frankly screwy.

But yes, I like America and I would love to see more of it!

[GorillaMan]

A few more: Charles Dickens, left school & started work at 12 because his father was in debtor's prison. James Cook, grew up in an poor farm-labourer family, discovered Australia.

[calm kiwi]

Are non-Europeans/non-Americans allowed to answer?

Let's pretend you already said yes.

My answer is SOME Americans, mostly those in the govt, take themselves wayyyyyyy to seriously.

YES America is numero uno SUPERpower in the world.

Does this mean George gets to decide who is the weakest link?
It seems so.

So if those bad bastards ruling countries not in the "Axis of Evil" continue to be bad bastards we will ignore them?
Yes, yes we will (It appears that Zimababwee is not interesting to anyone not from Zimbabwee.........Oh ain't the commonwealth a mighty machine).

Is it a good thing for the world?
Probably not.

To Americans: Why the flag adulation? If I want to see an NZ flag I need to cross the harbour bridge (why the fuck did the flag start flying there???) or go to Wellington, I presume there is a flag somewhere in the capital. There was recent debate (shit same debate different year) about changing our flag. The biggest reason was "it looks too much like Australias flag" (which it does) and many people confused the two. But we still manage to be Kiwis...even the doofuses who confused the flags.

Why is Americas flag so important?

Hey I live in the arse end of the world, who cares what I think.

[Exgineer]

With that lack of institutional barriers and a sort of meritocracy, comes a remarkable lack of class when compared to the rest of the world, I think. In my family alone, we've gone from uneducated longshoremen, butchers and coal miners to a firmly middle/upper middle class family where everyone is expected to go to college and hopefully get some kind of postgraduate degree. All that in 4 generations too.
This is a point that bears repeating. Someone posted "how many dishwashers become millionaires?" as it were a valid indictment of our society. I'd imagine very few do, but then not many potato farmers or shipping clerks do either. My great-grandfather was a potato farmer, my grandfather was a shipping clerk, and my father was an professional engineer.

"That kid from the projects" may not get rich (and then he might) but if he works to improve his condition, and provides a better life for his children than he had, his grandchildren will have a good shot.

[HMS Irruncible]

I also find it odd the things that are considered "obscene". Innocuous words such as "tits" are (I'm told) taboo on telly. The outcry over Janet Jackson's not even bare nipple appearing on TV screens was truly remarkable to this outsider, especially when you consider the vast amount of violence shown on TV. The idea that a human nipple is somehow more shocking than graphic scenes of murder is frankly screwy.
I wish people would stop saying this. It will only result in less violence, not more nipple.

[SlyFrog]

Why is Americas flag so important?

Hey I live in the arse end of the world, who cares what I think.

A symbol that raises respect and pride in what your country has accomplished? Is it that odd to believe that some people are not so cynical and jaded that they still believe on the whole their country has added more to the world than it has taken away, and are somewhat proud of that? I do not think that respect for one's country and a pride in its accomplishments need to come at the expense of another nation.

Here's another question. If one thinks it is somehow unseemly to show visible signs of pride in one's country, is it possible that distaste at seeing others do it is akin to the distaste a bitter misanthrope has at seeing other people acting happy and light? That's the feeling I often get when I see the "Why do you seem so proud/happy/zealous about your country" line of questioning. I understand that it is asked out of a supposed worry that people who are too proud of their nation are some type of nationalists who will try to take over the world, but sometimes it may just be pride in what has been accomplished. People who show such a distaste for that sentiment often strike me as having a bit of sour grapes.

[GorillaMan]

A symbol that raises respect and pride in what your country has accomplished? Is it that odd to believe that some people are not so cynical and jaded that they still believe on the whole their country has added more to the world than it has taken away, and are somewhat proud of that? I do not think that respect for one's country and a pride in its accomplishments need to come at the expense of another nation.
The European perspective is that all countries have things to be proud of, and things to be shameful of. Jingoistic flag-waving (and taking great insult at any disrespect to the flag) is seen as a wilful ignoring of those unpleasant elements of what defines the nation.

Here's another question. If one thinks it is somehow unseemly to show visible signs of pride in one's country, is it possible that distaste at seeing others do it is akin to the distaste a bitter misanthrope has at seeing other people acting happy and light?
Again, the younger-sibling metaphor seems appropriate. "Give them time, and they'll learn" is the way I'd describe the European view of American flag-worship.

[carnivorousplant]

To Americans: Why the flag adulation?

I don't think as many folks think that way as it seems.

Anyway, probably something like the British soldiers in the Zulu war who when they were down to a single round wrapped themselves in the British flag and shot themselves. I don't know why they valued the symbol of their country over their lives. I'd have dropped the flag so I could run faster.
OTOH, I hope that I would risk life and limb to save a Torah.

:)

[calm kiwi]

I don't think I presented my point very well SlyFrog.

New Zealand does nationalistic out the arse and back again. Anyone who knows who the All Blacks are will tell you that. If they don't they can certainly tell you about the masturbationary frenzy bought on by LOTR.

New Zealanders are proud Kiwis (almost all of us....I wouldn't want to speak for the whole country, Billy Crystal did that :D) but I would not know where to even start looking for an NZ flag anywhere but an official place and those official places are few and far beween.

Why would anyone fly there own countries flag IN their own country?

Oh and by the way our grapes ain't sour, try a Marlborough wine sometime :D

[dangermom]

Yesterday I said something about flags in the other thread on Americans, and I guess I'll say it again here. Why are flags in America automatically considered jingoistic? I do not think that is the case. Flags are nice, they're pretty, they're cheery, they look good on a summer's day, they make people feel happy. For a European example, GorillaMan, head up to Denmark sometime and see how they treat their flag. It's everywhere. Flags go on birthday cakes, in festoons across the streets in summer, and are strung over Christmas trees. You can hardly buy a birthday card without a flag on it, and little flags on wooden poles can be bought anywhere to put in your bedroom--I have two. The Danes aren't exactly famous for their jingoism, are they?

The flag only becomes a symbol of jingoism if we let it happen, by abandoning its use to those who want to use it that way. Personally I think we should have more flags. Calm Kiwi, if you send me a NZ flag, I'll put it out on your national day.

[eleanorigby]

gum ;)


As to the flag waving......we, ourselves have very conflicting views and approaches to it. We "revere" it as a symbol of freedom and of sacrificies made etc.

Yet, we paint it onto motorcycles, we have visors plastered with it for golf and other outdoor activities; it is used for beach towels and table cloths.....oh, not the actual flag per se, but the Red, White and Blue.

The actual depiction of the flag (13 stripes, 50 stars etc) IS rendered onto school folders, breast pockets of casual wear, patches to put on backpacks--the displays are endless. There is an expectation that one will wear RW&B on July 4th--clothing shops are full of summer shirts that have this theme. After 9/11, you couldn't turn around for the Flag being everywhere--stores sold out--there were even RW&B Christmas tree decorations. Participating in all this is supposed to show your devotion to Country. IMO, displaying an American flag well within your own country's borders strikes me as silly and juvenile--did your neighbors not know you were American? Sadly, I can understand the impulse of Americans of Middle Eastern descent feeling the need for such displays.

I also think these material goods using the flag are tacky as hell, but noone asked me that. To my mind, there is very little actual respect and/or patriotism present in this deluge of RW&B.....it trivializes the actual symbol and dumbs down the sentiments attached to it....but as you see, I am in a definite minority!

Then again, the flag can serve as a powerful tool to express politics vis-a-vis art. There has been more than one artist bringing down controversy on their heads d/t the way they choose to depict the flag. Don't remember details, but there was one at the Art Institute in Chicago a few years back where you walked on a flag painted on the floor. Horrors! cried those who were aghast at such anti-patriotism. But very little is known about proper flag etiquette--if more was known, I doubt we'd see the usage of the RW&B that we do.

[soapbox]

Oh, but I will add that if it came down to flag etiquetter vs free speech--free speech wins every time for me....

[calm kiwi]

If you would take a silver fern instead it's a deal :) (it's my prefered flag)

[Mehitabel]

Only after 9/11 in America did I see more flags than I saw in Canada in 2000.

Maybe it's because, barring recent immigrants, everybody in European countries is ONE ethnicity, ONE religion, ONE belief system? You don't NEED a symbol to be English or French or Icelandic, you're surrounded only by people just like yourselves, who all believe the same things, speak the same language, eat the same food, go to the same churches, have lived in the same villages for hundreds of years, etc. And the Southern hemisphere countries don't seem to have triumphant immigration stories but shameful ones; why be proud of a country when your prostitute/thief ancestors were forced to come there? Many of our ancestors came into NY Harbor waving little American flags at the Statue--they couldn't speak the language, they couldn't read the signs, they couldn't know the future--but they all could carry the little flags. And that's not a feeling you want to give up.

[calm kiwi]

I'm sure an Ocker will be along to poke you to death shortly but just a little info about NZ, NO ONE was forced to come here! NZ was all about zealous farmers.

NZ was not a prison historicaly, it could be argued that it is now. Apprently we are second in the western world for locking up people...after the US.

[Agrippina]

To Americans: Why the flag adulation?

9/11 had something to do with it. Afterwards, everybody brought out their flags to show that they supported America. Personally I found it nothing more than a fad. Almost every house in my neighborhood brought out their flags. Three years later, only one or two houses have their flags out now.

Little flag decals on cars and trucks are still around. Most have only one flag, but there are some trucks out there that have nothing but flags. We had one neighbor who had at least seven different flag stickers on his truck. Probably more. But the big thing now are the magnetic ribbons that say, "Support Our Troops" or whatever.

[calm kiwi]

I'm sure an Ocker will be along to poke you to death shortly but just a little info about NZ, NO ONE was forced to come here! NZ was all about zealous farmers.

NZ was not a prison historicaly, it could be argued that it is now. Apprently we are second in the western world for locking up people...after the US.

[SlyFrog]

The European perspective is that all countries have things to be proud of, and things to be shameful of. Jingoistic flag-waving (and taking great insult at any disrespect to the flag) is seen as a wilful ignoring of those unpleasant elements of what defines the nation.

What is jingoistic about displaying a flag? Basically, if you show any respect for a flag or have one up, you are suddenly a jingoistic nationalist zealot? By appreciating the flag, you suddenly myopically lose sight of the fact that your nation isn't perfect?

I get a different message from the whole flag thing. Europeans are bitter and disillusioned. Any form of pride or respect for the nation is viewed with suspicion or outright disgust (unless it comes up at a soccer game, in which case it's fine). Anyone who disagrees is somehow a child for not "understanding." Again, a bit like the joyless curmudgeon that starts to hate anyone that is happy.

Again, the younger-sibling metaphor seems appropriate. "Give them time, and they'll learn" is the way I'd describe the European view of American flag-worship.

Please. This is the exact type of condescending shit that Europeans have been engaging in for the last millennium and should be ashamed of. Someone has a different viewpoint, so they are suddenly immature and childish. Just like the Africans and Indians? Is it still the European burden to dominate the social and cultural system of other countries (including the U.S.) and rewrite what the backward heathens get wrong, such as flag worship?

[GorillaMan]

Maybe it's because, barring recent immigrants, everybody in European countries is ONE ethnicity, ONE religion, ONE belief system
Absolutely not! I'd say that Europe has a far more nuanced and individual approach to such things, and certainly does not consist of discreet homogenous groups. Take English vs. British, or Scottish religious divides, or Belgium, or Brittany, or the Basque country...we're aware that it takes much more than a flag to define an identity of either an individual or a group.

[GorillaMan]

What is jingoistic about displaying a flag?
That's not what I said.

Please. This is the exact type of condescending shit that Europeans have been engaging in for the last millennium and should be ashamed of...Is it still the European burden to dominate the social and cultural system of other countries (including the U.S.) and rewrite what the backward heathens get wrong, such as flag worship?
Hyperbole won't help your argument. And you've missed the point entirely. The 'we know best' attitude of colonialism (cf. Eddie Izzard's 'cunning use of flags) is precisely what causes much of the ambivilence about being unquestioningly 'proud' of our country.

[Mehitabel]

...well, maybe waving around silly little bits of cloth is preferable to fighting about those kinds of things for hundreds of years like Europeans do, hmmm?

[Mycroft Holmes]

GorillaMan[/b], head up to Denmark sometime and see how they treat their flag. It's everywhere. Flags go on birthday cakes, in festoons across the streets in summer, and are strung over Christmas trees. You can hardly buy a birthday card without a flag on it, and little flags on wooden poles can be bought anywhere to put in your bedroom--I have two. The Danes aren't exactly famous for their jingoism, are they?

The Dutch are similiar. The flags come out for "Koninginnendag", when children graduate (they are then accompanied by a backpack) and of course anytime the Dutch football team has an important game. We aren't exactly known for our jingoism either, but you do see a lot more flags than say in Germany.

[yojimbo]

http://americawestandasone.com/home.html

Hehe. The video on that page is absolute class :D

[curly chick]

Maybe it's because, barring recent immigrants, everybody in European countries is ONE ethnicity, ONE religion, ONE belief system?

That's a weird thing to say. Before the first Protestant church, when the Catholics ruled the roost over Europe, there were Jewish ghettoes in every major commercial city in Europe. Who do you think the boys from the Spanish Inquisition were looking for? Even if you think all the Protestant churches are the same religion as the Catholic church because they're all Christians, how can you say that the applies to people of the Jewish faith?

How are all Europeans one ethnicity? Because they're all largely white? Is white an ethnic group now? Could be I suppose. I don't tend to get the whole ethnicity thing, but then again, I live in a pretty white place, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.
But tell me; does a Slav look like a Celt to you? Does a person from Scandinavian country look remotely like a Spaniard to you? They might, I suppose, but they certainly don't to me.

Unless your definition of recent is far more stretchy than mine I can't begin to see where you're coming from with that.

[calm kiwi]

What is jingoistic about displaying a flag? Basically, if you show any respect for a flag or have one up, you are suddenly a jingoistic nationalist zealot? By appreciating the flag, you suddenly myopically lose sight of the fact that your nation isn't perfect?

I get a different message from the whole flag thing. Europeans are bitter and disillusioned. Any form of pride or respect for the nation is viewed with suspicion or outright disgust (unless it comes up at a soccer game, in which case it's fine). Anyone who disagrees is somehow a child for not "understanding." Again, a bit like the joyless curmudgeon that starts to hate anyone that is happy.



There are many countries flags that make me think "hmmmm, I know those stripes are country A B or C and those colours mean country A B or C".

There are very few flags known the world over. One would be the Union Jack, shit is in the corner of several flags, NZ included. Another would be the Swiss flag)(who doesn't own, or know someeone who owns a Swiss army knife). Number one would be the American flag. As a logo it is as instantly recognisable as the golden arches.

I'm not sure a flag should be a logo.

[Mehitabel]

I meant within countries, not between countries. I mean, so many of them even have state religions, that everybody had to belong to in the past.

[GorillaMan]

Within European countries (both historical and present-day ones), there is and always has been all sorts of religious and ethnic divides. Why was it at times deemed necessary to enforce a particular religion? Through an (ultimately impossible) desire to enforce uniformity where it doesn't exist.

[dangermom]

If you would take a silver fern instead it's a deal :) (it's my prefered flag)Oh, I already have a silver fern patch. I used to have a Kiwi pen pal. :)

[SlyFrog]

THyperbole won't help your argument. And you've missed the point entirely. The 'we know best' attitude of colonialism (cf. Eddie Izzard's 'cunning use of flags) is precisely what causes much of the ambivilence about being unquestioningly 'proud' of our country.

It's not hyperbole at all. It is insulting to presume that: 1) those who display flags or otherwise respect them are "unquestionably 'proud'" of their country; and that 2) even if that were the case, that a patronizing and condescending attitude of "We're enlightened, you'll get there eventually" is at all acceptable.

That is the stereotypical snobbery and elitism that a lot of Americans think of when they think of Europeans.

[Odesio]

Again, the younger-sibling metaphor seems appropriate. "Give them time, and they'll learn" is the way I'd describe the European view of American flag-worship.

Perhaps this is a source of European confusion over why Americans are different. We are not your younger sibling. At best we're the odd cousins who couldn't fit in and so we were driven out or left of our own free will. I hear a lot of criticism that Americans think everyone should be like them. Europeans need to stop being so bemused that we aren't more like them. We like our flags, so what? Viva la difference.

Marc

[gum]

About flags:

In November 1991, the U.S. Congress and President Bush proclaimed November 16 as Dutch-American Heritage Day. November 16th was selected because on that day in 1776, Dutch forces on the Caribbean island of St. Eustatius returned the salute of the American brig-of-war "Andrew Doria," thereby making the Netherlands the first country to officially salute the flag of the newly-independent United States.
On Dutch-American Heritage Day we celebrate the ties and pay tribute to the mutual respect and friendship that animates the Dutch-American relationship.

I especially like the 'mutual respect and friendship' bit.
That's what's life is all about, isn't it?
MGibson, You have every right to like your flag, period.

[Bomzaway]

(2)The "American Dream" is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.

I've known too many exceptions to this rule personally for this to be true. (Maybe inherited wealth is more likely to happen in certain parts of the country that I am not as familiar with.) But I've seen "the American Dream" happen again and again right under my nose.


I agree. The American Dream is alive and well.

I too have seen it many times. You can ask any Vietnam war refugee about coming to the US and most will tell you an American Dream story. A friend of mine was an illegal imigrant from Mexico, now owns his own successful business and lives the American Dream. Another friend whose family has been in the US for generations but was raised in an alcohol/drug ruined family, rose above it all to become a successful realtor and owes his life to the American Dream. These kinds of stories are repeated over and over again in every American city and town.

I agree with a lot of what has been said is wrong with the US; the religious zealotry, our current global aggressiveness, and the death penalty, but the American Dream dead? Not on your life!

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Oops, zombie thread, sorry.

Never mind.