NFL Draft - April 23rd & 24th

[Omniscient]

Well, 9 days until the official start of NFL obsessing season again.

I'm pretty geeked about this draft and I want to hear some thoughts. I know damn well I'll be holed up on the couch with some unhealthy food watching it unfold.

My initial thoughts:

1) Braylon Edwards vs. Mike Williams

I've got to tell you this one's been getting a lot of play around here. The Bears need a WR desperately, and all the experts are saying Edwards is going to be there at #4. I'm not so sure. I don't know that SF, Cleveland and Miami will all pass on WR in favor of QB/RB. More importantly, I'm not convinced that Edwards is the top choice. Edwards is the better combine guy, great 40 time and leaping ability, but he tended to disappear against averae competition in college. Partly because Michigan was a pretty balanced team that played alot of D, but also because he simply didn't find ways to get into the action. Williams however always stepped up in the clutch. The bigger the game, the bigger he was. Speed seems to be overrated at WR, how many speedsters came out in the pros and never really got off the ground. Not to mention that I have a really bad taste in my mouth about Michigan receivers. I

I'm hoping he gets taking in the top three, removing the temptation for the Bears to take him. And if that doesn't happen, I hope someone offers to trade up toget him. I'd love to see the Bears get Williams, but I don't think many teams see him as the best value at #4.....he'd be there at #7. I'd take him anyways, but the Bears office doesn't think that way. They'd rather trade down for $0.80 on the dollar to avoid taking someone out of "position".

2) Best Player on the board

Watching all the workouts and reading the reports. I'm feeling that Ronnie Brown is probably the best guy out there. Really weird situation for him though. There's 3 stud backs out there in free agency who are seriously under-valued. If you're the Dolphins do you go with a proven guy, sure thing, with a big price tag (but still a bargain due to the thick RB market) and use the draft pick on QB? Or do you use the pick for a RB and fill that hole on the cheap? If it's me, I grab Alexander or Edge, take advantage of the glut of RBs (3 big FA and 3 stud rookies) and get a guy like Edge relatively cheap, and then use the pick to take either one of the stud WRs (of which there's a thin FA crop and huge drop off in talent in the draft after the top two) or take whichever of the QBs is still there if you think they are going to be sucessful.

Personally, I'd love them to do this since that might take Edwards off the board and leave Brown to the Bears. Almost forcing them to not fuck up that pick. Brown would be a much bigger asset than Edwards, though I'm not sure what the Bears would have to do to shore up WR after that.

3) Draft day trades

I think you'll see a few of these. Some that have big ramifications. All of the top 4 teams are looking to trade down. The parity at the top of the draft means that you can probably get equal talent at #2 as you will at #8, just at a bigger price tag. When this happens teams at the top of the trade tend to force trades. They have a guy like either Williams pegged as their fave, but almost no one thinks they are a top 5. What the harm in taking a guy you love at #3 is when he'd probably go at #7, I can't say, but this is how they think.

I don't think the 9ers will be able to move that pick. Though I am beginning to doubt that they'll take a QB. To rank the likelyhood of events:

1. They take Edwards
2. They take Rodgers
3. They trade down (Washington maybe?)

I think Cleveland will end up moving their pick, perhaps with Tennessee. Since they need help all over the board. They won't take a WR, but the RB crop is solid. They might even move down farther and get themselves a top DE in the middle of the round.

The Bears also aren't likely to make a move before the draft. However, if things get loopy at the top and one of those QBs or Ronnie Brown fall to them someone might make a last minute offer they can't refuse. If things go all chalk, no one will reach up to grab Edwards when M. Williams will be on the board too.

4) Team to Watch

Dallas. They have two first rounders and a need for WR and CB. I'm guessing Parcells, given the option, would probably rather address the WR positions and get a CB or LB somewhere in the next round. They'll be a possible canidate to leap up to grab a guy like Edwards. If they stand pat, they could make two real impact picks, a long shot at getting M. Williams at #11 or most likely Merriman, and then filling in with a best player available pick with #20 (Campbell maybe?)

I'd love to see the Bears make a #4 & #36 for #11 & #20 swap.

5) Biggest Potential Steal

Campbell...if he goes anywhere below #12, that team is getting a bargain. Dallas should pass on him at #11 since the only team who might take him before #20 is St. Louis at #19, and that's unlikely. No way he goes lower than Baltimore at #22.

If 2 of the top 3 teams pass on QB, Campbell could slide really far. Look for a team like B-more to make a trade up if Smith/Rodgers is still there at #7.

6) Team(s) with the most to gain

Miami, they have TONS of options. And if they play it smart, they could get good really fast. If they can secure a good RB and QB, one way or another, they'll make a fast turn around. Having all the cap room and the #2 pick is a dream situation....too bad there isn't a stronger #2 overall prospect.

San diego, me likey! That trade last year looks like it could pay off in spades here. They're in position to really get two immediate contributors on defense. A rush and and impact safety/LB.

Should be fun! Any other wannabe draftnicks out there chomping at the bit to prognosticate?

[meek]

Any other wannabe draftnicks out there chomping at the bit to prognosticate?


I haven't prognosticated since I was a teenager. I'm pretty sure it's against the law up here.

Seriously Omni, I have nothing of value to add here. I just wanted to say that I thought the OP was very informative, well-written and interesting to read.

Yew one of dem sportswriters or sumtin'? :)

[duffer]

I don't have any deep analysis to add. Though I will say I'm rather underwhelmed with this year's draft class. Defense looks as deep as any other year, but offense is mostly a meh. At least from what I've seen. I'm getting nervous that Thompson isn't aggressively persuing F/A's to bring to Green Bay. I just don't see holding the NFC North if we're going to build the team around the draft.


Hot damn I can't wait for football season! The NFL is proof that God loves each and every one of us!

[Omniscient]

I disagree somewhat. I feel that this draft is a little on the light side defensively. Only a couple impact DEs, and they are not considered sure things, Pollack is considered the top guy and he's a bit of a tweener with reach and speed questions. There isn't a monster DT coming out, a position which has been taken the top 5 of the last 5 or so drafts. Its pretty deep in the secondary, but the LBs are pretty run of the mill.

Offensively there isn't a Vick, Moss, Palmer, Manning, or Tomlinson type guy out there. Plenty of solid guys that will produce, but none that are seen as franchise guys. Frankly, I think that's more perception than anything. This is however, a very deep draft. Especially the RB position. when was the last time you saw 3 RBs predicted to go in the top 6, followed by another 6 that are sure to go in the first 2 rounds. The QB crop is thin, but not as thin as some years, the top three will certainly go in the top half of the first round. Thats more than any year since 99, most didn't even have three in the first round altogether. There's only a couple stand out WR/TEs, but the top 2 are really really good.

I'd be willing to wager that this draft class will have more drafted players in the starting lineup at the start of their sophmore year than any in a decade.

[BigDummy]

The top 4 may want to trade down, I've heard SF really does, but I don't know if they're going to find that many takers. With this class it almost doesn't make much sense to move up. Even the top guys aren't utterly thrilling people, why jump to pay them more when you can get a guy almost as good for less.
I'd be surprised (and a little disapointed) if Dallas moves up. They have too many needs to reach for just one. WR & CB yes, but they also really need another good S to pair with Williams, Parcells isn't crazy about his LB's and they need a decent pass rusher in the worst way. A lot of places are predicting them to take one of the top DE's first (usually Merriman, another tweener) then either a WR or S with their 20. I also read that Parcells hates really high picks.
Locally, I'm curious what Gruden's going to do. If anybody could use moving down it's them, they have holes all over the place, but I doubt they will. Last I heard they're hoping one of the Williams will fall to them.
I totally agree about how deep this one is. Like any draft it's a crap shoot, but there does seem to be a lot of really good players out there.
The top couple of LB's are supposed to be OK, and Johnson's supposed to be really good, but he might not last long.

[The Scrivener]

As a Dolfan, I'm psyched. As the OP'er noted, Miami needs a QB and a RB (although I think securing a good QB is more crucial). We'll find out soon enough...

[Omniscient]

The new buzz has Alex Smith climbing up the boards. Supposedly Rodgers is a little too much of a prima donna for some of these teams looking for a QB. smith seems to be the "attitude guy", the buzz is getting loud enough that people are practically ready to garauntee someone will trade up for him.

This shocks me, and I'm inclined to ignore it as misinformation, but just about every guy who is "in the know" is selling it.

Alternatively, people mysteriously are now ranking Cedric Benson as the #1 RB....balderdash I say. However, the Bears suddenly could fuck this draft up after all.

Supposedly Gruden is really antsy to move up to grab a QB. Interesting, bet San Fran and Miami are listening intently, we'll see how much they need to offer. Honestly San Fran might trade straight up (not really since that be too much of a mess in negotiating) with them just avoid paying that huge signing bonus.

It's getting juicier by the day.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Who has Benson at the top?

[Kiros]

Peter King (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/04/18/mmqb.draft.smith/1.html) of SI has Benson going a pick before Brown in his latest speculative mock. More generally, people seem to have about the same amount of respect for the top three RBs, the top two QBs, and the top couple of WRs... though incidentally, Len Pasquarelli (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&page=qb_ratings&num=0) of ESPN.com has Campbell actually ahead of Rodgers in his QB rankings.

I'm really excited about how many trades and how much general motion we may see in the first round, as well as how many extra picks both this year and in the future the Pats will manage to walk away with this year - particularly when they have much more in the way of needs than they have in the past few years. I think things at the top will depend even moreso than usual on how the individual teams have players ranked, as opposed to the "general consensus" - since the general consensus seems to have a lot less separation than usual.

[Ellis Dee]

Unlike last year, when every day before the draft was chock full of anticipation and prognostication, this year I'm mostly indifferent to the draft. My Giants have no first rounder, which turned out to be a major plus in free agency not having to earmark money for the 12th pick overall.

I'd like to see the Bills get Heath Miller at TE, but they (like the Giants) gave away their first rounder picking up a QB last year, (Losman, who I wanted for the Giants), but most people think Miller will go at the end of the first round. As such, I'd like to see Miller go to the Jets. They need a real TE, though not nearly as badly as the Billies; the guy behind Becht was a good pass catcher, though for the life of me I can't remember his name at this point. (And I had him on my woeful FF team.)

September 11th can't get here fast enough. Go Big Blue! Go Gang Green! Time to topple the divisional powerhouses and have both NY teams win their divisions. Or something.

[Omniscient]

OK, at this point I'm totally convinced that the QBs are going in the top 3. Not sure if it will be SF or Miami taking them, Tampa trading up or someone else trading up, but both top guys are going off the board before the 4th pick. If either one is still there at the 4th pick, expect someone to trade up with the Bears.

So, what are the Bears going to do. If my instinct is correct that the QBs go down early, that'll basically give the Bears more options and more chances to fuck things up.

Here's the scenarios I see happening in no particular order.

1) The scenario at the top I've predicted takes place leaving the bears with pretty much anyone they want. Cleveland or Miami probably chooses between Edwards and Benson/Brown/C. Williams. Whoever is highest on their board. That allows the Bears to take whoever is left. If I had to bet, it'd be Ronnie Brown.

2) The other scenario I hinted at happens, one of the QBs slip to #4 and someone trades up. Hopefully this puts the Bears somewhere in the low teens, giving them a shot at a guy like Mike Williams though I doubt he gets past Minnesota or the third RB off the board.

3) I'm totally wrong and both Brown and Edwards go off the board early and everyone expects either Rodgers/Smith to slide to them or Campbell to be there as a fall back, negating the value in trading up. this puts teh Bears in a tough spot. They need a WR much more than a RB, but here one of the RBs is probably a better "value" than M. Williams. I'd prefer to see them make a slight reach for Williams and try and negotiate a slightly below scale bonus instead of taking another RB before they know whats going to happen with the incumbents and the free agents.

Whichever scenario plays ut, if it end up with teh Bears getting Mike Williams I'm satisfied, even if most people don't have him ranked as the #4 player in the draft. He fits, and doesn't have "head case" written all over him.

One more note, I'm to the point where I'm practically certain that all three QBs will go in the top 10. If the FA RB market wasn't so flush, I'd be equally sure that the top 3 RBs will go in the top 10 too. And I won't be a shred surprised to see the top 3 WRs (insert Clayton at #3) go in the top ten too. There isn't a single defensive player that's a sure thing, and two top CBs are the only one's I can envision going higher than 10. Could be a really interesting first hour.

[Omniscient]

OK, at this point I'm totally convinced that the QBs are going in the top 3.

Sorry, refering to Smith and Rodgers here.....not Campbell when discussing the top three picks.

[Omniscient]

One last thing. If the Bears take Benson at #4, I'm throwing myself off a fucking bridge.

[Omniscient]

According to this report (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041257) Washington has acquired the 25th overall pick for a 3rd rounder this year and a first and fourth rounder next year.

Awful deal. Just awful, Isiah Thomas must be consulting.

First off, there is NO way that Campbell is still there at 25. Its unlikely under normal cicumstances, it becomes a complete impossibility when everyone knows you want him there. If he's still on the board at #20, teams will be clamoring to trade up in front of the 'Skins. Wow, looks like the game has really passed ole Gibbs by.

Secondly, the odds of Washington finishing in the top 7 teams next year is virtually nil. That means denver gets a 3 this year, a 4 next year, and if I had to guess, a mid-teen overall pick next year. Ouch.

Is anyone around here actually a Redskin's fan? Bet those folks in Philly, Dallas and NYC are thrilled.

[Kiros]

Agreed... that trade is brutal. It's one thing if you do it on draft day when he's on the board at that spot, to take a chance on a guy... but to do it in advance, and to let the world know what you're after? It sounds so stupid that they would almost have to be bluffing, but if they're bluffing, they paid WAY too much for the pick they got.

[VarlosZ]

Wow, that's an awful trade. A 1st (very likely high-mid, based on recent performance), a 3rd, and a 4th for a late 1st Rounder in a relatively weak draft class? As a Giants fan, I love Dan Snyder. . .

[Madd Maxx]

That midget is ruining my life! He's ruining Joe Gibb's Hall of Fame credentials. He's ruining my Redskins. This is the type of trade the computer offers you in Madden. It's insulting, degrading, and he took it! I can only hope that Mark Brunell and Dan Snyder spontaneously combust and leave the team to someone, anyone else. Mark Cuban would be nice.

[Omniscient]

That midget is ruining my life! He's ruining Joe Gibb's Hall of Fame credentials. He's ruining my Redskins. This is the type of trade the computer offers you in Madden. It's insulting, degrading, and he took it! I can only hope that Mark Brunell and Dan Snyder spontaneously combust and leave the team to someone, anyone else. Mark Cuban would be nice.

Hate to break it to you, but this trade was probably 95% Joe Gibbs' decision. Snyder has gotten out and left player decisions to Gibbs. Face it, the guy is a dud.

[Lord Ashtar]

Is anyone around here actually a Redskin's fan? Bet those folks in Philly, Dallas and NYC are thrilled.
I am. That's what The Danny does. He mortgages draft picks. Pretty soon he'll be saying, "Okay, give me your first rounder this year, and I'll give you my first rounder next year and two years from now."

A GM! My kingdom for a GM!

[Hal Briston]

Is anyone around here actually a Redskin's fan? Bet those folks in Philly, Dallas and NYC are thrilled.As a Giants fan, let me just say...

Ha ha!

[Hamlet]

Excellent, well researched, and intelligent posts, Omni. I would expect nothing less from the 8th place finisher in our fantasy league. Scouting which of these guys you're grabbing in the fantasy draft this fall? You're already sitting damn pretty in that league for next year, you bastard! I'd love to have your team.

Anywho, your posts are tainted by their focus on the Bears. It's a shame you have to waste such obvious talent and passion rooting for a mediocre team, but to each their own.

Here's some of my thoughts:

1) Contrary to most people, I think this is a strong draft class all the way down. Granted there are no clear "franchise" guys like E. Manning, R. Gallery, C. Palmer, or A. Johnson, but I think the talent level is still high, and the draft is deep. I think this years draft will be a doozy, with a lot of teams improving through the draft.

2) What is up with running backs in the NFL? E. James, S. Alexander, T. Henry, A. Thomas, and W. Green were all available, some too highly priced, yet nobody has taken them. Add to that three talented rookies in Brown, Benson, and Williams, and it appears there's a glut of potential 1,300 yard guys in the NFL. Which decreases the value of the big three rookies. Hell, it took 24 picks to take the first running back last year, I'm surprised there is all this hype about this years class when there is so much talent available.

3) Braylon Edwards v. Mike Williams - Even though he's a Michigan guy, Braylon all the way. Mike Williams is great, don't get me wrong, but he doesn't have the elite speed, or the experience, to be a T.O. or a Randy Moss. Heck, I like M. Clayton better than Williams. Braylon is a lot like R. Moss, he's fast, big, and, unfortunately, a bit of a head case. That's why he tends to disappear against mediocre teams, but comes up big in huge games, like this years Rose Bowl. Braylon would be a great pickup for any team, if he gets his head straight, which he did this year. It's Randy Moss v. Keyshaun Johnson.

4) Underrated guys: Mark Clayton, WR. The second best wide receiver in the draft, who may fall even to the second round. He's a poor man's Marvin Harrison. He's on the small side, but he's fast, runs great routes, and is smart. He's a big time, productive player who only needs to strengthen up a bit, and he'll be an immediate impact player. Plus he saves people from car accidents, so he's a good guy too.

Demarcus Ware. Again, another great player who gets knocked for being too small. He's quick, relentless, and smart. He needs just a bit of work on coverage, if he's used in a 3-4 defense, but he too will make an immediate impact. Think Dwight Freeney.

5) Overrated guys: Troy Williamson, WR. He's a guy who has flown up the draft board recently, and I just don't see it. He's fast. That's it. He's fast. Which can help, but I'm not impressed with his ability to catch the ball, or his heart to go over the middle. I don't think he's not ready for the NFL. It's just a personal opinion, but this guy will not make it in the NFL.

Mike Williams, WR. See above.

Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith - I haven't seen enough of either one for this opinion to be really sound, but neither of these guys impresses me all that much, and certainly not enough to be drafted in the top 5.

6) Just shut up about..... Tommy Chang. I'm sick of all the draftniks going on about this flash in the pan Ty Detmer clone.


7) The Packers - The most pressing needs for the Pack are at safety and guards. They also need another linebacker, another pass rushing DE, and maybe an heir to Favre. I'd love to see Ware, Spears, or Pollack fall. I'd also love a couple million dollars. I'd like to see them getting Dan Buenning in the third or fourth round.

Just some rambling thoughts to get you through till Sunday.

[NurseCarmen]

What gets me is Mel Kiper's big board has Mike Williams moving up past Braylon Edwards. Hey, as a Viking fan, I'll be thrilled to see BE drop to #7. But that would only happen in my dream world.

I don't see RBs flying off the board too early this year, since the FA market was barely touched. And I see Rolle coming off the board earlier than most mocks I've seen. WRs and QBs will dominate the top 10. Edwards and Williams will be taken by the time my beloved Vikes pick at 7, and the vikings will pick up a running back even though they don't need one. If Braylon is picked up at one or two, or even three, look for the Vikings to weigh their options of trading up. If they don't, and those WRs are gone, look for the Vikes to trade down with a loss of value.

The biggest steal of the draft just might be the now admitted steroid user Luis Castillo, who will probably drop to Sunday after his confession. Whoever picks him up will never regret it, the kid has a motor. And I believe him.

[Hamlet]

Edwards and Williams will be taken by the time my beloved Vikes pick at 7, and the vikings will pick up a running back even though they don't need one.I understand the "best player available" theory of drafting, but, in the Vikings case, I don't think that would be the best pick. I think the 'queens should end up with either M. Williams, or Rolle or A. Jones. Any of those guys will be a much better pick than Benson, Brown, or Cadillac.

[Omniscient]

Regarding running backs, I totally agree with the logic that all these free agents mitigate the value of the Rooks, but it works the other way too. And considering that none of these FAs have been strongly linked to any one team, the draft is probably going to see action on RB. If a team like the Cardinals think Henry and the Bills want too much, taking Brown on the cheap is a hell of a deal. Sure getting Henry and M. Williams would be a nice start, but is it worth giving up draft picks and about 20% of your cap?

I think Ronnie Brown, with his size/speed and multiple skills put him at or above every free agent except Alexander. Yes, I know Edge and Henry are good, but Edge is aging and injury prone and Henry hasn't shown enough consistency. Getting Brown at $0.60 on the dollar is a good value bet.

Caddilac and Benson will be solid, but probably shouldn't be taken above a proven vet. They aren't the can't miss prospects I think Brown is.

Hamlet, I forget where the info for that league is. Honestly I've practically forgotten my team and draft slot. Damn that Vodka.

Michigan WRs are the football equivalent of Duke Point Gaurds. No thanks.

[Omniscient]

I'm convinced speed is over-rated. Moss is the only guy who really uses his speed to be a game-changer in the league now. I'd even argue that his height and leaping ability are the bigger factor.

If you're the Rams or Colts, I can see putting a premium on speed. However, if you're any of the top 4 teams, you don't have a QB capable of taking advantage, and offensive system built to exploit, or a coach inclined to stretch the field enough to have an impact. Taking Williams, a guy with monster soft hands, a guy who always got open in the middle and knows how to get open in the endzone, will jave the stronger impact on teh offense as a whole.

Even the no-doubt quality veterans in the Edwards mold (think Chaz and Andre Johnson, Plaxico, Fitzgerald) aren't really guys who have turned their teams around. As nice as they are for the highlight reel and fantasy numbers, they don't help offenses control games.

I'd compare Williams to guys like Chambers, Muhammed, Toomer, Boldin and Rod Smith, all of which I think were more indespensible to the offenses than a homerun hitter. I can tell you right now that Braylon Edwards will not be effective over the middle.

Gimme Williams or Clayton over Edwards every time. I could be wrong and he might be the next Moss......but odds are he's not.

[BigDummy]

Thomas & Green both had one decent season and have been pretty mediocre otherwise, to put it nicely. Henry is pretty good but he puts the ball on the ground a lot, which scares some people, and I got the impression that Buffalo may be asking quite a bit for someone they have no intention of playing. Last I heard the Bucs were still talking though. The other two are real expensive.
I'm not quite that sold on Brown. He looks like he will be real good, but I didn't think he's had that much actual production. Is there a reason Williams got more playing time? And even though Brown should be better, there could be worse choices than Benson.

Personally, if Gruden gives up anything to move up and take one of those QB's I'm gonna be super-pissed. Even if they do get one of the veteran RB's they have way too many other needs, and I wasn't that impressed by either of those 2 guys.

[Hamlet]

Regarding running backs, I totally agree with the logic that all these free agents mitigate the value of the Rooks, but it works the other way too. And considering that none of these FAs have been strongly linked to any one team, the draft is probably going to see action on RB. If a team like the Cardinals think Henry and the Bills want too much, taking Brown on the cheap is a hell of a deal. Sure getting Henry and M. Williams would be a nice start, but is it worth giving up draft picks and about 20% of your cap?Edge and Shaun, I think, have proven themselves worth a first round draft pick. Edge is only 26, and it appears he's completely recovered from the injury. And he put up 2,000+ yards last year. Shaun could be even better. Although they would definitely be a salary cap concern, I'd have no problem getting one of them over an unproven rookie. Benson isn't fast enough, has a lot of miles, and could just be an overblown TJ Duckett. Brown might be a stud, but how come he couldn't beat out Cadillac? Give me a proven stud over these three anyday. Even Travis Henry, who is only going to get 1.25 million this year, is a better option, to me at least.

I think Ronnie Brown, with his size/speed and multiple skills put him at or above every free agent except Alexander. Yes, I know Edge and Henry are good, but Edge is aging and injury prone and Henry hasn't shown enough consistency. Getting Brown at $0.60 on the dollar is a good value bet.Brown, as I said, is too risky for me. While there is a lot to like about the guy, and he may very well be a stud in the league, I'd much rather a proven commodity.

Hamlet, I forget where the info for that league is. Honestly I've practically forgotten my team and draft slot. Damn that Vodka.Here (http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com/f1/16909) is the site and here (http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com/f1/16909/draftresults) are the draft results. J. Jones, J. Witten, and M. Clayton are a nice start to next year. Sure, not as good as S. Jackson and ummmmmmm.... well, maybe not.

Michigan WRs are the football equivalent of Duke Point Gaurds. No thanks.They're due.

Personally, if Gruden gives up anything to move up and take one of those QB's I'm gonna be super-pissed. Even if they do get one of the veteran RB's they have way too many other needs, and I wasn't that impressed by either of those 2 guys.I'm guessing he'll wait and see. Cleveland is the big question mark for them.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I'm convinced speed is over-rated. Moss is the only guy who really uses his speed to be a game-changer in the league now.

I'm not sure about all that. Pick a position and chances are the best game-changers over the last few years have had at the minimum great speed, if not uber-elite speed. Ray Lewis, Torry Holt, Freeney, Ed Reed, Vick, Moss, Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, Derrick Brooks, Jason Taylor... there aren't that many players who you can say are, or have been the best in the league at their position who aren't really fast. The trendy thing lately is to downplay guys' combine numbers, which is fine, but you give me a good football player with insane speed, and I promise you he'll make a difference on the field.

All that said, I like Mike Williams way more than Edwards, although I don't think Edwards is going to be a bust or anything. It's just that Williams is 230 friggin' pounds, and I'm not sure I believe that Edwards is really that much quicker than him to begin with. Really, if I was any team in the top 10 I'd be looking to trade down if I wanted to draft a skill position, because I don't think #1 is much better than #'s 2, 3 or 4 at any of them.

At running back, I think I might, just might prefer to have Cadillac over the others. I recognize that Brown's bigger, faster, and better in the passing game, but I love Williams as a runner. Brown doesn't have anywhere near the shake that Cadillac has, and they're probably a wash in terms of moving the pile.

Oh yeah, and I'd take Derrick Johnson #1 overall, no matter what team I was.

[Ellis Dee]

I'm not sure about all that. Pick a position and chances are the best game-changers over the last few years have had at the minimum great speed, if not uber-elite speed. Ray Lewis, Torry Holt, Freeney, Ed Reed, Vick, Moss, Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, Derrick Brooks, Jason Taylor... there aren't that many players who you can say are, or have been the best in the league at their position who aren't really fast. The trendy thing lately is to downplay guys' combine numbers, which is fine, but you give me a good football player with insane speed, and I promise you he'll make a difference on the field.I think he was talking specifically about the WR position. If he was, I'd tend to agree. Hands and vertical are really all the matters. It seems like every team has a blazing fast WR or two, but they rarely are one of the two starters. Santana Moss is a prime example of a speedy WR who would be much better losing some speed to improve his hands. Or grow a few inches.

I've been poking around looking at potential Giants selections at #43 overall. The second round can yield some high impact players. Last time Big Blue had no first rounder, our first pick was also #43 overall. We used it to pick up Michael Strahan, which turned out pretty good.

Our glaring holes were MLB, OL, and WR, but thanks to free agency, our glaring holes are now HB2, DL depth, and CB. I have no idea who we'd take as a RB, but I don't really think it matters. For whatever reason, I just feel like any old 3rd or 4th round RB would do fine in the NFL.

The two prospects I've heard tossed around are both centers. David Haas is the one most fans seem to be slobbering all over, but an equal number feel he won't be on the board at 43, so the second choice, and the more intriguing one, IMO, is Chris Spence. (Spencer?) He was the C/IL at Ole Miss, and actually started at center for Eli in 4 games. He's in the mold of Chris Snee, and seems to have great upside. This wouldn't bode well for O'Hara, who I don't dislike, but I prefer my Giants to be career Giants.

Having the young core of the OL be Snee/Spence/Diehl for years to come is an enticing prospect for the future. And having Petitgout/McKenzie on the corners in the immediate future would give us an almost respectable line, which seems to be unheard of in the recent past of the Giants. Toss in Seubert (get well soon) and Whittle and there is even a tiny bit of depth.

Despite the OL not being anywhere near the position of need, I wouldn't mind even a tiny bit if we used our first pick on a center. I wouldn't even mind using the second one as well on the OL. Screw everything else; I want a good (and deep) OL for the first time since our last Superbowl run. Of course, if Tiki goes down, Coach Coughlin's pet poject from BC (Mike Cloud) is a frightening prospect to step in and take over...we'd be fucked.

One thing I don't understand is all the Giants fans kvetching over who will be the heir apparent to Strahan, when it is so clearly Osi Umenyiora. He was an animal last year once all the vets went down and he got the chance to start. Am I the only one to think this?

[The Big Cheese]

7) The Packers - The most pressing needs for the Pack are at safety and guards. They also need another linebacker, another pass rushing DE, and maybe an heir to Favre. I'd love to see Ware, Spears, or Pollack fall. I'd also love a couple million dollars. I'd like to see them getting Dan Buenning in the third or fourth round.

Just some rambling thoughts to get you through till Sunday.

The db's have been getting a lot of play around here. GB needs them, plus lb's & de's & dl's. And a QB. Odell Thurman and Marlin Jackson have been mentioned, know nothing about either. I just read that Thurman is an undersized db....which reminds me of another undersized db they had whose initials were Terrel Buckley. Oh no.

TB needs a QB again? What happened to Simms? I thought he was going to be so good?

Is Charlie Frye, QB form Akron worth a high pick?

[Ellis Dee]

I'd like to see the Bills get Heath Miller at TE, but they (like the Giants) gave away their first rounder picking up a QB last year, (Losman, who I wanted for the Giants), but most people think Miller will go at the end of the first round. As such, I'd like to see Miller go to the Jets. They need a real TE, though not nearly as badly as the Billies; the guy behind Becht was a good pass catcher, though for the life of me I can't remember his name at this point. (And I had him on my woeful FF team.)I'm a big fan of Jolley's, but I'm disappointed by yesterday's trade on two levels. First, I wanted Collins to have Jolley to throw to; Tra Thomas is quick, but I think Jolley's hands are a little better. Second, I really would have rather seen the Jets noticeably improve at the TE position. While Jolley is an improvement, it's not a big one, like Heath Miller would have been.

Ignoring my side allegiance to the Raiders for the moment, I'll find out whether I'm happy with this trade on Saturday around 4:00pm. If Miller is still on the board at 26, I'll be pissed. Even moreso (from the Jets perspective) if the Raiders pick him up. Assuming he's not still on board, which I presume is what the Jets were thinking when making this trade, then it's not a bad trade after all.

I'd really like to see the Billies trade Henry to the Phins for McMichael, ideally getting back some change. Maybe a 4th rounder? It'd be well worth it.

[Omniscient]

I'm not sure about all that. Pick a position and chances are the best game-changers over the last few years have had at the minimum great speed, if not uber-elite speed. Ray Lewis, Torry Holt, Freeney, Ed Reed, Vick, Moss, Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, Derrick Brooks, Jason Taylor... there aren't that many players who you can say are, or have been the best in the league at their position who aren't really fast. The trendy thing lately is to downplay guys' combine numbers, which is fine, but you give me a good football player with insane speed, and I promise you he'll make a difference on the field.


As Ellis Dee noted I was speaking narrowly to include only WRs. When you talk about pretty much any defensive position, speed kills. I do tend to downplay speed from a RB a little too, but not to the degree that I do for WR. Hell, Jerry Rice didn't have uber-speed. He was fast enough, but the hands and cuts were his biggest assets.

Another Bears tidbit. If they take a WR at #4 or trade back and don't get an elite RB in the first round, expect them to take a long look at JJ Arrington with their second rounder.

[Omniscient]

I'd really like to see the Billies trade Henry to the Phins for McMichael, ideally getting back some change. Maybe a 4th rounder? It'd be well worth it.

I'm sure you'd love this, but let me tell you, it'll never happen. Miami has way to many viable options at RB to give up a guy of McMichael's skill level at such a hard position to fill. The only chance Saban makes this type of move is if he plans to script an office that wholly disregards the TE position. Seeing what he's done in the past, I doubt it. Also consider that if Miami trades a TE to the Bills, they end up with a TE situation even worse than that of the Bills now. If anything Miami would be wanting some change for this one.

[Omniscient]

Grrrr.....

office = offense


Also, to comment on this story (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2042190).

Lets see, the Jets get Doug Jolley, a second rounder and two sixth rounders.

The Raiders get the 26th pick, and a seventh rounder.

This seems like a fairly even trade. I think the Raiders gave up a little too much, but considering that they have a ton of picks this year they can afford to. They now have the 26th, 37th, 69th and 78th picks overall in the top 100.

Wonder who they Raiders will be eyeing at #25. Wouldn't be surprised to see them package those 26th and 37th picks to move up into the mid-teens for a guy they really love. the really need WR help, and depending on where Clayton is slated to go he could be their guy. That'd actually be a pretty good fit, though they probably need more help on the defensive side. Wouldn;t be shocked to see them take Frye at 37 either, though most people probably have him charted lower. It'll be interesting to see where Campbell goes. If he gets taken before 25, it might cause teams to reach for the next best guy earlier thna usual. If Campbell actually slips to the Skins, it could indicate that most teams aren't interested in QB. Frye could even fall to the 3rd round, though probably not that 69th pick.

[Ellis Dee]

Also, to comment on this story (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2042190).Thanks for the link; I'm a lazy bastard.Wonder who they Raiders will be eyeing at #25. Wouldn't be surprised to see them package those 26th and 37th picks to move up into the mid-teens for a guy they really love. the really need WR help, and depending on where Clayton is slated to go he could be their guy. That'd actually be a pretty good fit, though they probably need more help on the defensive side. There's no way they take a WR, with the tandem they have already. They dumped Asomugha for Moss, and in effect packaged Buchanon & Jolley for a first rounder in a three-way deal with the Texans and Jets. (It's like they're playing Madden 2005 over there.)

Even if they still had Asomugha and Buchanon, they'd still need serious help on D. Without them, their D is about as bad as the Giants' pass protection was last year. (Didn't the Raiders finish dead last in pretty much every defensive category last year?) However, if Miller is on the board at 26, it would be tough to pass him up. KC can do some damage with a TE.

Damn, I wouldn't have the stomach to be a GM in the NFL.

[Omniscient]

I really need to learn to preview

"eyeing at #26"


Anyways, lets tie up a loose end that I overlooked arly this week, the other Raider deal (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2041266) warrants comment.

The breakdown.

Raiders get: second and thrid rounders (47th and 73rd/78th overall, CBS and ESPN don't seem clear on which of Houston's 3rds the Raiders got.)

Texans get: Buchanon

Interesting deal. Wonder what the story on Buchanon is, he's got an awful lot of skill and potential, bonus for return skills, for him to be given up for so little. Granted, in this years deep-as-all-hell draft, 2 picks on the first day are pretty valuable. He obviously has crapped the bed in Oakland, and shown a propensity for being a bit of a head case, but if he turns it around in Houston, they got a steal!

The biggest plus to the deal for Houston is that he's locked up for 2 more years at about $750k per.....cheap for a first round CB. Hell, thats cheap for a return specialist.

As we've seen, the Raiders are doing their best to make the most of picks this year, using one of these picks in this trade to move back into the first round.

They could walk away from the table on Sunday with the additions of Moss, another top rated WR or CB, a solid project QB, and some late round defensive depth. If they wait a year on QB, you could toss in a solid LB. Would anyone be shocked to see the Raiders roll the dice on Luis Castillo with that 3rd rounder?

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I'd be shocked that he was still available in the third.

[Omniscient]

You might be right, all depends how that steriod thing resonates, coming just as Tags is due up in Congress.


Anyways, here's a really interesting article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?id=2042636) about the top picks.

Got me to thinking about some of my assumptions. Most of his rankings are about the same as mine, though I think he too easily forgives the issues that Pac-man and Edwards have. Dropping balls is dropping balls, don't care why. And you can't convince me a Thug is a smart top 5 pick.

However, the stuff about Rolle, Brown and the Williamses is dead on. God I hope the Bears don't end up with Benson.

[Omniscient]

T-minus 23 hrs 30 min until San Fran is officially on the clock.

Another trade (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2043410) with draft day implications.

Miami gets: KC's 2nd rounder, #46 overall and 5th rounder.

Kansas City gets: Rights to Patrick Surtain and Miami's 5th rounder.

Looks to be a pretty square trade. Miami wasn't going to bring him back this year due to salary cap issues. He's too good to go for less than a 2nd rounder. the only real impact here is that Miami gets an additional 2nd rounder which is sorely needed. Partially because they need to fill alot of holes and can get a contributor there, or possibly even more important, it's an additional bargaining chip to balance a possible trade back situation. Maybe a team like Minnesota gives up the two high first rounders for that #2 overall if they are able to get a mid-second rounder back to balance it a little. Though, reports have Minnesota's desire to trade up pretty slim.

Wonder if there's any chance that the Bears can trade back to somewhere around #10 and take M. Williams, I just don't see tham getting him at #4, instead they'll pick a running back not names Ronnie Brown. Shit.

[furt]

It occured to me today that I am deeply screwed up, because I am hoping my Iggles will take Matt Jones at either #31 or #35. It makes some sense: he's big enough to be a TE in a pass-first offense, but also fast enough to be a WR; and those are both positions Philly has need at, either this year or next.

So why am I screwed up? Because the real reason is because he'll be fun to play with in Madden.

[Ellis Dee]

So why am I screwed up? Because the real reason is because he'll be fun to play with in Madden.hehheh, I feel ya, brother. In my weekly gamer night, where Madden is usually the order of the day, we play Giants (me), Jets, and Steelers. Luckily the Jets guy had already released McKenzie after the second season, so I was able to easily snatch him up once the Giants got him. (I also dropped Hilliard immediately when the Giants did.) However, the Steelers guy has made it abundantly clear -- in no uncertain terms -- that Plaxico will remain a Steeler until the next version. I do enjoy busting his stones a bit, though. ("Nice play. Too bad you need Giants to make your plays for you. Don't you have any good Steelers?")

I so wanted Sean Taylor in the draft last year that I picked him up to replace Stoutmire. Now he's too good to release, so I can't wait for next year when Gibril Wilson will hopefully be in the game, assuming they bother to create him. Speaking of Giants players not existing, this might be the first Madden version in years that will include the Giants starting kicker from opening day on the roster. Check this out:

2005: Should have been Steve Christie, who didn't exist. Instead was Matt Bryant.
2004: Should have been Matt Bryant, who didn't exist. Instead was Bill Grammatica.
2003: Should have been Matt Bryant, who didn't exist. Instead was Owen Pochman.
2002: Was correctly Owen Pochman. Good job, guys! *ugh*

Maybe Jay Feely is a big enough name so that Madden can include him on my friggin' roster for a change. You'll notice that Matt Bryant, who was the real life starter for two years, and of whom I was (and am) a big fan, didn't even exist in Madden until the Giants released him. So annoying. I give that "Create a Player" feature a workout every year.

[VarlosZ]

Just thought I'd post a link to the final mock draft from NFL Draft Countdown. (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html) The website is a little rickety (you may have to reload the page once or twice), and they could use an editor to help with basic punctuation, but the guy who runs the site really knows his stuff -- last year's final mock draft was eerily accurate.

Anyway, best mock draft on the web. Just thought I'd post it.

[Ellis Dee]

Just thought I'd post a link to the final mock draft from NFL Draft Countdown. (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html) The website is a little rickety (you may have to reload the page once or twice), and they could use an editor to help with basic punctuation, but the guy who runs the site really knows his stuff -- last year's final mock draft was eerily accurate.

Anyway, best mock draft on the web. Just thought I'd post it.Interesting. I was all prepared to look up the Giants picks and point out that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but his picks for the G-Men sound both good and plausible.

However, if Miller drops all the way to the Steelers, (and I've heard this in several mock drafts), then the Jets made the all-time worst fucking trade imaginable. Jolley over Miller?! (I like how he gives Shockey props, too. Moreso than the folks at the giants.com messageboards do, anyway.)

The easiest way (for me) to see if a mock draft has done its homework is the later rounds. ESPN's, for example, has Big Blue drafting 2 WRs. Since they only have 4 picks, that's half their entire draft at WR. WR happens to be one of the few positions where the G-Men have a glut of talent and absolutely no need whatsoever, so picking up a single WR is a strike against credibility, but two is just a joke. (Since Shockey is pretty much the de facto slot receiver, we almost never see the third WR in the game. And we have 3 pretty good candidates...Tim Carter, Jamaar Taylor, and David Tyree...competing for that one underused position. And EPSN has us spending half our draft at WR? WTF?)

Less than 90 minutes now. Unlike Eli, I'm getting pumped.

[furt]

Shockey sucks.


What do people think about the value chart (http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/pick_value_chart.htm) the NFL uses to grade the value of picks? I think this thing is horsecra, whic probably explains why I think so many draft-day trades are idiotic. According to it, having the number-one overall is worth more than having #16, 17 and 18.

That's ridiculous, given the success rates on first round picks, to say nothing of the fact that the salaries for the guys at the top are waaay higher than the guys picked just five or ten slots lower.

[Weirddave]

Hey Omni, the Bears took Benson. :)

[Ellis Dee]

I'm a big fan of Jolley's, but I'm disappointed by yesterday's trade on two levels. First, I wanted Collins to have Jolley to throw to; Tra Thomas is quick, but I think Jolley's hands are a little better.Not sure what I was thinking, but to clarify, I meant Teyo Johnson.

Clearly the Detroit Lions have been studying the drafting principles of Denny Green. Enough first round receivers over there yet? Good Lord.Shockey sucks.Is this a trash talking thread now? Hey, didja hear about the new & improved hurry up offense in next year's Madden? You slow down until you run out of time. Also, holding the A button down after the play ends makes your QB hurl in the huddle.

(If anybody was wondering, McNabb is the cover boy.)

[asterion]

Is anyone around here actually a Redskin's fan? Bet those folks in Philly, Dallas and NYC are thrilled.

As a Broncos fan, I would just like to thank the idiocy on Washington's part that went into making that trade.

[BabaBooey]

Please oh please oh please DJ fall to NO. We've been just missing out on that impact LB for several years now.

[wmulax93]

As a Lions fan, I'm stuck between excited and confused.

A huge WR/TE combo like MWill could be great, but what happens to everyone else?

I think it has to happen like this:

WR: C. Rogers, R Williams

Slot: K Johnson

TE: M Williams

H-Back: M Pollard

RB: K Jones

[BabaBooey]

That's a dangerous team Detroit has, too bad they don't have a QB to distribute the ball. I'll put the Harrington over under at 4 games and I'll take the under.

As desperate as the Aints are at defense, we REALLY needed help on that side of the Oline. Riley was horrible there, and if you saw the 2nd NO TB game last season, you would know the only reason it was close at all is because we were getting pushed around up there. If the Ruud, the Nebraska boy falls to use in the 2nd round (8th pick), we'll be in good shape.

[treis]

I can't believe Aaron Rodgers is still on the board. He is going to be there until at least 19 becuase the next 3 teams have quarterbacks. I don't see St Louis taking him, will Dallas? If not the Ravens have got to be doing backflips.

[Omniscient]

Damn, decided to upgrade my OS last night and have been stuck all morning fighting through a plethora of issues. I should have been here foamng at the mouth over all these mysterious picks!

BTW, I'm cursing the fact that I live in a city where the highest bridge is about 17 feet above the water. Just can't get the desired effect of a protest suicide jump. The Bears will just have to tolerate my constant bitching and harrasment. Fucking morons.

Anyways....

Mike Williams

Can you believe this? No way he should have slipped to #10, and no way the Lions should have taken him. People have talked about him developing into a big slotback/TE. However, I see no logic in Detroit drafting him andplaying him unless they intend to try and move one of the other guys. They simply cannot affod to have 3 WRs on the field that are this young. It makes no sense. However, if you're drafting at #10 and he's there you have to take him. I predict a trade or something, the Lions don't go into week 1 with these three guys there.

Even moe shocking than that pick is that Minnesota took Williamson over him! Total gamble, they think speed is everything. I think he'll be pretty damn good, but I almost gauruntee that he'd have been there at #18. What a head scrtacher. If you wanted a WR there, it should have been Williams, if you didn't like Williams you should have taken Rogers there and taken either Williamson or Clayton at #18. Baffling choice.

I'd bet Dallas takes Rodgers at #20 and Green Bay takes Campbell at #24...sorry Washington. We'll see if they were bluffing or not.

Worst picks so far: Benson - Bears; Jones - Titans; Williamson - Vikings

Best picks so far: Brown - Dolphins; Merriman - San Diego; Johnson - Chiefs

[Omniscient]

Brain fart....totally forgot about the Bledsoe signing, swap that prediction to be Baltimore taking a real long look at Rodgers, though they probably won't be giving up on Boller just yet.....

Wonder if Green Bay prefers Campbell or Rodgers.....hmm.

[Kiros]

Watching DraftCast as I do some work... I LOVE the Ravens taking Clayton. This is the put up or shut up year for Boller - if he puts up though, with Clayton and Mason and a healthy Heap to go with that rushing attack and that defense... scary.

I also really like the Derrick Johnson pick for the Chiefs. He could give them a huge boost towards a potential rebound year.

[Omniscient]

Love this Matt Jones pick!

He'll be s stud if the Jags get creative. You can't turn him into a traditional WR or TE. They won't try him at QB with Leftwich there, a guy I love. I could see him playing as a hybrid H-back/wing. Don't line him up in the 3 point at TE, but slot him out about 3 yards. He can crash down to seal theend, get an easy release from the line and own the middle of the field. You can eaily motion him to the backfield to do just about anything. He can be a faster, more physical Tony Gonzales. He'll never become a traditional TE, blocking down and peeling off to LBs, but if you use his size and speed to create matchup issus, you'e set. A LB won't be able to cover him, and if you keep him close enough to the trenches you'll force them to isolate a CB/S on him. That eliminates any prayer fo double teaming the wideout on the wide side.

The Oakland pick surprises me. Thought they'd be eyeballing one of the QBs there. If they are shooting for Washington, thats fine, he fills a need but I don't see any of the teams between 26 and 23 going for CB. They both have a need at CB, but they seem to have a bigger need at other positions.

GB has got to go for a QB I think.

[Kiros]

Randy Mueller just said in the Draft Cast chat that Fabien Washington has "supple hips"... that is a good thing, I guess? Some discernible football skill is dependant upon your hips being "supple"?

Don't know that the Oakland trade was necessary - I don't think either GB or Washington would have taken them. Not sure that move was worth even a fourth rounder, when Oakland can certainly make use of as many picks as they can get.

[furt]

Is this a trash talking thread now?No, but Shockey sucks. :D


And so does Andrea Kramer. God, she's awful.


And even as an Eagles fan, it's sad to see what's happened to Gibbs, assuming that was his trade & pick.

[VarlosZ]

Poor Aaron Rodgers. Legacy-wise, he's in a good situation in Green Bay (a year or two to learn with no pressure, a solid team around him to make him look good when he does start).

Career-wise, however, this is an unmitigated disaster. The difference in pay scale between a Top 5 pick and #24 pick is huge, and there’s always the chance (injury, bust) that this is the only NFL contract he’ll ever get.

(OTOH, it really is an amazing steal for the Packers. As recently as a week ago, Rodgers was the concensus pick to go #1 overall, and he fell all the way to the 24th pick for no reason at all. Just amazing.)

[Omniscient]

Who knew that Washington didn't screw the pooch....guess it'd have been hard to predict that Rodgers would slide that far too. Helped them out I'm guessing. Can you believe that Heath Miller is still on the board? He's a good fit at Pittsburgh, Philly and New England. Which ever teams gets him will be even more formidable on offense. Ouch.

If by some miracle he gets past them look for the Bears to gleefully take him. The only guy I can imagine the Bears passing him up for is JJ Arrington. We'll see.

[furt]

Poor Aaron Rodgers. Legacy-wise, he's in a good situation in Green Bay (a year or two to learn with no pressure, a solid team around him to make him look good when he does start).

Career-wise, however, this is an unmitigated disaster. The difference in pay scale between a Top 5 pick and #24 pick is huge, and there’s always the chance (injury, bust) that this is the only NFL contract he’ll ever get.Or the other way to look at it is that he has a better chance to get a second contract and have a good career by being in a good situation.

Bus yeah, short-term he lost millions.

[Omniscient]

(OTOH, it really is an amazing steal for the Packers. As recently as a week ago, Rodgers was the concensus pick to go #1 overall, and he fell all the way to the 24th pick for no reason at all. Just amazing.)

Well the one reason is EGO, he came across as way too cocky. Reminiscent of a a guy named Leaf. Combine that with the Tedford factor, you shouldn't be surprised. I think the Tedford thing is crap, but when the teams in the top 5 (the only ones with need at QB really) have a dozen other needs and question your character....good bye.

[Kiros]

Can you believe that Heath Miller is still on the board? He's a good fit at Pittsburgh, Philly and New England. Which ever teams gets him will be even more formidable on offense. Ouch.

The Pats already have two first-round TEs on their roster from the past two drafts... then again, they weren't supposed to take a TE last year and they did. If they didn't continually find new ways to surprise, I'd assure you that the first pick is going to be a CB or LB.

Not sure it's going to become a point, though - I can't imagine Pitt passing on Miller if he's still there. That looks like the perfect fit to me.

In other news, to make Omni's day even worse, Hawkins blew another at about the same time the Cards were walking off with a 1-0 victory behind a 10 inning CG from Mulder in which he only threw 104 (!) pitches. Care to let me know who the next Cubs closer will be so I can pick him up in our fantasy league? :)

[VarlosZ]

However, if Miller drops all the way to the Steelers, (and I've heard this in several mock drafts), then the Jets made the all-time worst fucking trade imaginable. Jolley over Miller?!
Actually, I think it's a good trade regardless. Remember, it's not just Jolley, it's Jolley plus the 47th overall pick. Those mid-second rounders are excellent picks becuase of the quality of players compared to the cost of their rookie contracts.

[Kiros]

See, there we go, as the Pats take Logan Mankins of Fresno St. They needed a replacement for Andruzzi in the keeping Brady and Dillon happy department, and apparently decided that his attitude and flexibility made him the right pick. I imagine they tried to trade down half a round or so, since he has been valued as a mid second to early third round pick, but they probably couldn't, and something made them believe he wouldn't be there at the end of round 2. Fills a need, and even if he isn't the highest rated guard on most boards, they obviously see something in him. Plus, there's always the bonus of the ESPN analysts looking clueless for about 15 seconds while they get the info on someone they didn't expect :)

[NurseCarmen]

As a Vikes fan, I'll be holding my breath for a couple years to see how Williamson turns out. I should be scared that Detroit picked up Williams, since we have to see them twice a year, but as long as they have the worlds worst QB, I'm okay with it. This draft will haunt me two years from now, facing Aaron Rogers after Bret retires and facing Williams when Detroit finally gets someone, anyone, other than Harrington.

I dunno. I guess Williamson fits better because of his speed. Now that we've lost Moss, defenses will play us 8 in the box to stop our run. That's a wonderful thing to do against teams with no passing game and no QB. But with Daunte at QB, it makes sense to make teams pay if they try 8 in the box. The kid has some speed, sure, but does he have the hands for the NFL? I know Williams does. I dunno if Williamson does.

Then we miss out by one spot on the RDE I covetted, Pollack, and get an injury prone Erasmus James. James is great when he's healthy, but he's been hurt alot.

[Snooooopy]

The Jets took kicker Mike Nugent awfully high.

[Kiros]

They still got the CB they wanted with their next pick, though, so it actually worked out pretty well for them, since Minnesota was said to be interested in Nugent. I think the Jets actually did pretty decent today considering they had no first rounder.

How about the Clarett bombshell at the end of the third? I think that has to be pretty automatic as biggest surprise of the day, given how everyone (except Denver, apparently) was ranking him.

[asterion]

They still got the CB they wanted with their next pick, though, so it actually worked out pretty well for them, since Minnesota was said to be interested in Nugent. I think the Jets actually did pretty decent today considering they had no first rounder.

How about the Clarett bombshell at the end of the third? I think that has to be pretty automatic as biggest surprise of the day, given how everyone (except Denver, apparently) was ranking him.

You should see the Denver message boards. The general reaction seems to be that it was a questionable move at best and that Denver would have been better off taking a punter for one of those CBs or Clarett. Seriously, Denver needs a good punter and what are they going to do with all those CBs? Convert some of them to safeties and nickle backs?

[duffer]

Late getting to the thread, just popping in to comment on the Packer's draft so far.

I knew Ted Thompson coming back was going to be good.

Rodgers: I did a double take. I figured he'd go top-10 and GB would look for a DE to immediately help out KGB in pass-rushing. Needless to say I love this pick. For the past few years I've assumed Nall was the future and felt OK about it. He's a quality QB for the NFL. Then we picked up Sullivan from NO and I started thinking they were looking for someone else. So maybe Nall is destined for trade-bait or Pederson's role. I'm so pumped getting a good QB in the first round. And he'll have 1 or 2 years at least to study under Favre. Rating: Very happy.


Nick Collins: I have to admit I never heard of him until now. I've been researching his college carreer and can say I'm not very nervous about this pick. With a need at Safety, I like his size and speed. For a DB 5'11" and 206# he's pretty well sized. The thing keeping me from dancing in the streets is that he's coming out of I-AA. Not a bad thing in many cases. My concern is that I hope he's a smart, common sense guy who realizes the bigger jump he's making to the NFL than that of I-A guys. Of course, the huge chip on his shoulder coming from I-AA may be the fire he needs to make a name for himself in the league.


Terrence Murphy: I really have no idea about this guy. No sense of what to think of him. What I see is a KR of average ability, but could be very versatile. He's also played QB, but in HS. I suspect he's likely to return kicks, but I can see him being a threat in trick plays. Either as a passer or rusher. Generally Thompson won't take a guy if he can't contribute to a win, but I just don't know enough about this kid to make a concrete decision.

[The Big Cheese]

Randy Mueller just said in the Draft Cast chat that Fabien Washington has "supple hips"... that is a good thing, I guess? Some discernible football skill is dependant upon your hips being "supple"?

The hell with vertical jump height and 40 times...hips are it!
The Packers got a safety and this is from his bio: Shows some looseness in his hips, turning fluidly coming out of his backpedal...

I don't know Duffer, Rodgers might be a steal, but the two others we'll have to wait on.

[Theodore Striker]

Apparently, this is the proper range for Pack fans to check in, I'll make three in a row.

I was surprised and very happy that Rodgers slipped down to 24, this will be a great opportunity for him to spend a season or two studying, instead of having someone thrown in the fire.

I still haven't seen much about Nick Collins, but the size and speed seem solid, and he must be doing something right to move up to the second round.

I have seen Murphy play, and I think he is a real bargain in the third. His size isn't great, but that really doesn't seem to matter in the pack's system. What will really help him in the system is his that he runs smart and precise routes, will be where the QB expects him to be.


Aree there any Bengals fans out there? Since it's my hometown team, I follow them too. I would have rather them take Marcus Spears in the 1st instead of Pollack, I like his bulk better to stop the run, but Thurman in the second, Henry in the third, and Ghiaciuc in the 4th are all needs and values for their spot taken in the draft.

[Omniscient]

Care to let me know who the next Cubs closer will be so I can pick him up in our fantasy league? :)

I'll be glad to.....I'll enjoy watching your ERA and TB stats bloom.

[Omniscient]

Realy like that Anthony Davis pick, he'll be a excellent fit in Indy and anyone who watched him play week-in-week-out knows how he can flat out dominate. Obvious health concerns, but this guy is every bit as dominating as Frank Gore was against better defensive teams. Might be the steal of the draft so far.

[Omniscient]

Also, let me be the first to say that here's to hoping the Rodgers-Leaf comparisons are true.

[Hamlet]

Some general thoughts:

Best First Round Pick - Aaron Rogers at 24. Of course, I’m not biased at all.

Worst First Round Pick- Troy Williamson. I’m always happy to see the Vikes fuck it up.

Risky, surprising pick: Frank Gore. Sometimes it's OK to give up on a guy. Picking him before Barber, Faison, Moats, Morency, Pearman, and Sproles was just plain silly.

The pick that made me laugh out loud: Mike Nugent in the second round. Ahhh, you can always count on the Jets for a good laugh during the draft.

The stupidest pick of all stupid picks: Maurice Clarett in the third round. That guy has PATHETIC tattooed on his fucking forehead. And his arm. And his back. And his momma’s back too.

Thing Omni is right about: Ronnie Brown is really good. Johnson going to the Chiefs will prove to be a huge step in the right direction for them. Anthony Davis was a great pick, with incredible value and upside.

Things Omni is wrong about: Cedric Benson was a great pick for the Bears. He’ll be a solid running back for years to come, and is a great pick to complement the perennially overrated Thomas Jones. Actually Jones will be complementing him.

Things Omni is horribly wrong about: Matt Jones. Overrated athlete who has no position to play, and no reason, besides hype, to be taken in the first round. While he is an impressive specimen, he’s a athlete in search of a position. Unless they plan on changing their whole offense to suit him (and he ain’t that good), he’ll get lost in the shuffle. It is possible he’ll be a Antonio Gates type player, I just don’t see it happening. The Jags will rue the day they took him over Clayton.

Since I spent Draft Days with almost all Viking fans, my thoughts on their draft:

Williamson was a dumb, dumb pick. Worst pick of the draft, possibly. BUT, after that, they did outstandingly well. Having E. James fall into their lap was lucky, but they knew well enough to take him. M. Johnson is a big guy who could quickly develop into a solid starter for a long time. Fox has a great head for the game, and Ward could develop. But the best pick was getting Faison. I’m surprised he fell so far. Although their first round put them in a huge hole, I think the Vikes just may be coming out ahead of the game.

And now, for the real information:

PACKERS:

Overall, it was a huge roller coaster. I'd waver between thrilled to angry to confused, to pleasantly optimistic. Which is a nice way to spend Draft days.

Aaron Rodgers: I loved getting Rodgers with the 24th pick. I'm still not sure why he fell so far, but I'm damn glad he did. If it was ego, a later draft pick and sitting behind Favre will certainly help straighten him out. I put no weight in the over analysis of this holding the ball near his ear, or the Tedford curse. It's great to get a franchise QB on the cheap. I was thrilled with this pick. Grade: A.

Nick Collins: What. The. Fuck. Some no name from a small school with questionable experience taken with the 51st pick? I know he's supposedly got the speed and size they like and he's versatile enough to play both safety and corner back, but for the love of god, what were they thinking taking him so soon. I'd be thrilled to have him in the 6th, even the 5th round, which was the highest I'd seen him projected, but there is no way in hell he's the 51st best prospect and no way in hell they shouldn't have waited to pick up this guy. They fucked up by not getting Dan Cody or Channing Crowder here and waiting to get this developmental project later. Grade: D.

Terrence Murphy: I'm content again. Watching how the Pack suffered through injuries in the wide receiver corp late last year and previously, I'm happy to get another good, solid player. He'll be a great KR and a fine #4, and he could develop into a very solid #2 WR. Although I was pissed they didn't fill a more important need, such as DE or CB (I liked Tuck or Green), if he can hold onto the ball, I think this was a good, solid pick that will help the Pack on special teams immediately. Grade: C+.

Marviel Underwood, S + Brady Poppinga: I was concerned when the Pack traded out of the third round to pick up an additional pick, but I like the two guys they got in the fourth. Still, though I would've preferred getting Blackstock in the third. Underwood is another versatile CB/S with great speed and athleticism. I'm concerned about his smarts and ability to play the zone, but, if he can learn the system, he could be a solid starter in three years. Poppinga is a nice, but limited pick. He's a can do type of guy who isn't going to stun you with his athleticism, but he plays smart and hard. I don't think he'll really develop into much and he maybe under-skilled for the NFL, but I like his intangibles. All told, I like both these picks. Grade: B.

Junius Coston C/G, Michael Hawkins, Arena League. I was hoping to get Grigsby or A. Hawthorne in this round, but, oh well. I really like Coston, though I'm convinced Hawkins will be a bust. Coston is another small school project who, I think, will take well to coaching and, if he gives it some effort, could be a great pick. He can play either C or G, which is nice, but he needs to develop a mean streak if he wants to replace Clifton or Tauscher. Hawkins is a highly athletic, talented player is terribly raw and doesn't have the mental toughness to make it in the NFL. He's got all the measurables, but none of the heart or head stuff he needs to succeed. Here's hoping I'm wrong about him. Grade: C.

Mike Montgomery DE, Craig Bragg, WR: I was pissed that the Pack traded down and let Oakland grab A. Hawthorne. You smoke a little pot and you drop 4 rounds. They really should've scooped him up, because his talent level and production were well worth taking a chance on in the 6th round. Dummies. However, I like the guys we did get. Montgomery scared some people off with his heart problems, but, if he's healthy, I think he could be a great steal. He does need some training in his technique, and he is a bit of a 'tweener, but I think he could develop into a solid starter for the Pack. Which is great for a 6th rounder. And Craig Bragg is outstanding pick here. He's another guy who could easily step in and be a contributor on the team. He'll never be a star, but his production is great and he could very well help this year as a possession receiver and could develop into a solid #2. Although the Pack passed on a big, run stuffing chunk o' man to help on the DL, they got a couple of prospects who could become starters. Grade A/F - so we'll call it a B-.

Kurt Campbell, S: Huh? Who? Grade: ?

Will Whitticker, G: Hey, I’ve heard of him. He’s that guard from Michigan State right? Good enough for me: Grade: C.

I only hope that we can get Omni to save this thread and, in a couple years, I can come back and gloat about how right I was. Or not. Either way, I love the NFL draft!!!

[ShibbOleth]

Well, I've not been paying too much attention to this draft. I'm slowly coming to loathe both Jon Gruden and Bruce Allen, but I expect them to be gone after the coming 4 or fewer wins this season, so I hope they're at least putting things in order for the future. But it's been painfully difficult to follow the draft on ESPN. They seem to cut out to commercial just as they're about to show something about the Bucs, then they come back and it's all about Tennessee or someone else.

So, can anyone tell me how we've done?

[Snooooopy]

I was pissed that the Pack traded down and let Oakland grab A. Hawthorne. You smoke a little pot and you drop 4 rounds.

But Oakland is like a nature preserve for headcases and individuals with questionable character. It's only fitting that he goes to Oakland where he can romp and play in an atmosphere tailored to him.

[Hamlet]

So, can anyone tell me how we've done?I didn't follow the Buc's draft much, but it seems they did fine. They got a potential franchise running back in Cadillac Williams, the second best TE in the draft win Alex Smith, a solid, but unspectacular LB in Barret Ruud (a bit of a reach in the 2nd round), a potentially impressive JuCo player, and a bunch of nice, if questionable prospects. Plus you got some guys with cool names like Hamza and Razzano. All in all, a middle of the pack draft class with Cadillac having the potential to be a stud. Of course that happens when you get to draft 5th because your team sucked last year.

[Ellis Dee]

The pick that made me laugh out loud: Mike Nugent in the second round. Ahhh, you can always count on the Jets for a good laugh during the draft.You said it. I was at my buddy's house for gamer night by the time they got to the 70s, and since both the Jersey teams were picking in the seventies, we took a break from Madden to catch up.

The moment we turned to the tv, it was the beginning of the blooper reel showing all the boneheaded picks Gang Green has made over the years. My favorite was probably the one with all the fans chanting/shouting "SAPP! SAPP! SAPP!" and then the Jets picked some schmoe.

At this point the Jets fan in the room started to get a bit worried, so we rewound the Tivo to find out...a kicker!!!! Bwahahahahahaa!!! Funniest goddamn pick ever. Well, the Jets did have a minor kicking issue last year. hehheh.

I'm happy with the Giants picks overall. CB Corey Webster already looks better than Will Allen, who will likely be with us only one more year. DE Justin Tuck looks okay, and despite RB Brandon Jacobs looking iffey, (much too tall, too heavy, too easily tackled, can't move the pile), I love his attitude:

"Short yardage, long yardage, whatever the situation maybe, I just want to get the job done,” Jacobs said. “I was just talking to someone and they said, ‘The Giants haven’t been able to get a third-and-1 in a long time.’ So this will stop finally because I will not be denied one yard."

Oh man, that's music to a Giants fan's ears. Hearing our short yardage back say "I will not be denied one yard" damn near brings a tear to my eye.

The last pick, DE Eric Moore, I'm not much concerned with, although it's nice to have another end, where we only had two warm bodies. I tend to suspect he was drafted because they didn't want Tuck to be the only guy on the team with a single-digit wonderlick score. *sigh*

[Omniscient]

Hey, I really hope you're right about Benson. I honestly do. But, in the meantime you'll see me in that stands at Soldier Field holding up a sign comparing the stats of Benson vs M. Williams with a call for Angelo's head on a stick. I'll be happy to be wrong.

Tell me this though, even if Benson is a probowl back, are you telling me they wouldn't have been better of getting M. Williams at #4 and a guy like Arrington, Shelton, Fason or Barber III with one of those later picks? Hell, Thomas Jones is plenty servicable and coupled with a beast like Shelton would have made for a really nice tandem. The difference between M. Williams and M Bradley is about 400% of the difference between Benson and Shelton/Arrington.

The only justification is if they were convinced that somehow one of the mid-level guys (Williamson, Clayton) would slip to the top of the second round, really stupid if they thought this. Or if they were really targeting this guy for some reason. I certainly hope not since he's not clearly better than Terrance Murphy, a guy I'd have prefered.

WR was a much shallower position this year than RB, so you should have taken the WR at #4, no brainer.

Idiotic, Benson will have to be a Tomlinson/Alexander/McAllister caliber back right away to justify this.

The interesting pick to me is Orton, I'm a little torn on the guy. Certainly has a lot of potential, and if he translates into the NFL the way Brees did he could be a nice value here. However he played in shotgun for 80% of his snaps in college, something the Bears never do. In any case, you can expct this to create a slower learning curve...likely a big reason Brees took so long to blossom. He does have all the tools though.

In the end though, I'd have prefered LeFors or Orlovsky. Especially Orlovsky a couple rounds later, Detroit got a steal taking him there and the pressure is surely on Harrington. Hope I'm wrong here, but it's tough to know what the guy has upstairs and perhaps Orton has what it takes.

In the end, I really wish the Bears had the draft class the Lions have.

*sigh*

[Hamlet]

Tell me this though, even if Benson is a probowl back, are you telling me they wouldn't have been better of getting M. Williams at #4 and a guy like Arrington, Shelton, Fason or Barber III with one of those later picks?

Hell, Thomas Jones is plenty servicable and coupled with a beast like Shelton would have made for a really nice tandem. The difference between M. Williams and M Bradley is about 400% of the difference between Benson and Shelton/Arrington. No, it don't think they would have been better doing it your way.. M. Williams is basically a younger M. Muhammed. The Bears don't need two big, physical WR's, they needed a sure-handed speedster who can break a game open. Granted, Bradley isn't sure-handed, but he is a speedster (I'm not sold that he's a game breaker) But that's the Bears for you. And Benson will do more to improve the passing game than any WR, with the exception of Braylon Edwards, available. T. Jones doesn't have the ability to force the defense to put 8 in the box, nor to wear down the defense. C. Benson does. He'll add more to the passing game by keeping d's from cheating on the pass, by pounding the ball, by giving play-action an actual "action", by picking up blitzes, and by creating more 3rd and 2 or 3, than 3rd and 8 or 9. Passing on the surest thing in the draft to get a guy you already have would've been a huge error. Plus, Arrington, Fason, Barber, and Shelton are not nearly as good as Benson. While you have a point that the ratio of Williams to Bradley is much higher than Benson to Shelton, I think Benson is going to help the Bears a ton more than Mike Williams would ever have. The Bears are a defense orientated, control the ball, don't make mistakes, type of team. Benson is a great fit for them.
The only justification is if they were convinced that somehow one of the mid-level guys (Williamson, Clayton) would slip to the top of the second round, really stupid if they thought this. Or if they were really targeting this guy for some reason. I certainly hope not since he's not clearly better than Terrance Murphy, a guy I'd have prefered.Well, since yesterday, I've become a huge fan of Murphy, so I'm biased that way.
WR was a much shallower position this year than RB, so you should have taken the WR at #4, no brainer.No, you take the best player available. Benson is better than Williams. Plus, he's going to help your team win much more than having M. Williams on your roster would. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Bears, but I think they did right by taking Benson.
The interesting pick to me is Orton, I'm a little torn on the guy. Certainly has a lot of potential, and if he translates into the NFL the way Brees did he could be a nice value here. However he played in shotgun for 80% of his snaps in college, something the Bears never do. In any case, you can expct this to create a slower learning curve...likely a big reason Brees took so long to blossom. He does have all the tools though.

In the end though, I'd have prefered LeFors or Orlovsky. Especially Orlovsky a couple rounds later, Detroit got a steal taking him there and the pressure is surely on Harrington. Hope I'm wrong here, but it's tough to know what the guy has upstairs and perhaps Orton has what it takes.Predicting which QB's will prosper in the NFL is tough enough in the first round, let alone picking among 3rd, 4th, or 5th rounders. I like Orton, and the QB coach for the Bears probably knows him better than anyone, so I'd trust his judgment, if I were a Bear fan that is.

In the end, I really wish the Bears had the draft class the Lions have.

*sigh*Unfortunately, I think the Lions improved more than anyone else in the NFL North. They didn't make a bad pick, they helped themselves immensely, and they got a couple of guys who could blossom into studs. Fuckers. At least I can console myself that the Pack had a better draft than at least one of the teams in the NFL North.

[Kiros]

You smoke a little pot and you drop 4 rounds.

In the defense of all the teams that passed on him, it takes a special kind of stupid to test positive for pot at the combine, when every single person attending is tested and knows in advance that they will be tested. In a lot of ways, it's worse than Castillo's steroid positive - at least Castillo had (some kind of) an excuse, and handled the situation pretty well.

[Snooooopy]

The moment we turned to the tv, it was the beginning of the blooper reel showing all the boneheaded picks Gang Green has made over the years. My favorite was probably the one with all the fans chanting/shouting "SAPP! SAPP! SAPP!" and then the Jets picked some schmoe.

Ah, yes ... Kyle Brady. :rolleyes:

Fortunately for the Jets, that was only the third-worst mistake in the Top Ten of that year's draft. :p

Cincinnati kicked things off by selecting the doomed Ki-Jana Carter with the No. 1 spot, and Philadelphia wasted its pick at No. 7 on Mike Mamula, whose name is invoked year after year after year around draft time as commentators caution teams to avoid "workout wonders." At least Brady has kicked around the league for a good number of years and been relatively productive.

[Dignan]

Initially I was really unhappy about the Bears decision to pass on Mike Williams. I would have been fine with Ronnie Brown at #4, and might have preferred him to Williams. Then I had a change of heart. I think Benson will be good. He's coming in with something to prove. It isn't the same thing as having a chip on your shoulder; he's got a lot of motivation to be successful and I think he's happy to be in Chicago. His interview left something to be desired (what was he talking about?), but it's good to see he has some emotion, and was kind of caught up in the situation. I think he will be the best pick the Bears could have made. (Let's hope I'm right.)

It would have been nice if the Bears would have brought in some offensive line help. Bradley seems like a big project, and I have an aversion from players that are likely to be a product of the system (like those from Oklahoma). Why not take Khalif Barnes instead of Bradley? I hope the O-line is better than last year.

Orton is an OK pick for the fourth round. He's got to be an improvement over Krenzel. Currie is more exciting to me than Bradley.

I have the Chicago sports fan thing going for me, which means I don't have confidence in any of the teams (other than being confident that something will go wrong, and the team will lose). I would really like to see things get turned around.

[BabaBooey]

My Saints stole McPherson in the 5th. I think at the very least it will force Brooks to start playing like his job depends on it.

[Stuffy]

Well since no one has commented on the Niners specifically, I’ll give it a go.


ALEX SMITH QB – I don’t like having to pay No. 1 pick money for a QB when we have three on the roster. That said, I think Rattay is or will be soon be headed elsewhere. None of QBs shined last season, but Rattay was particularly onerous as he had more experience at the position. Still no one really got a fair shot at showing their ability last year due to horrendous line play, so this one is a wait and see.

DAVID BASS G – See above, last year our line was decimated by injuries, with predictable results. Any moves to shore up the line is a GOOD THING. Add to that, that BASS is versatile and can also play OT and I’m happy.

FRANK GORE RB – I figure this was a good player available at that time pick. He doesn’t really add anything that we don’t posses at RB in Barlow and Hicks in breakaway ability or Beasley and Jackson at short yardage. However, again I’ll wait and see.

ADAM SNYDER G – See previous comments on David Bass. Good Pick.

I was also happy to see added depth at CB in the closeout of the draft and a continuing commitment on defense, with a DT drafted in the 5th Round. There is talk of moving Rumph (CB) to safety and I’d love to see him playing opposite Tony Parrish. When he’s had a chance to make open field tackles he lays on some great hits.

[mouthbreather]

Here's my Steeler-centric take on things:

1. Health Miller TE : As a side: He had hernia issues over the past couple months and IIRC did not work out at the combine so that's part of the reason he fell to the end of the first. Love the guy, just have concerns he's a fit four our team. We havent utilized the TE as an offensive weapon since the days of Eric Green. Millers run blocking is supposedly average (and that may be generous.) But, that's about the only knock on him that I've read. As long as we will use him in a way that showcases his strengths, I'm good with it.

2. Bryant McFadden CB-- Very nice pick, and I couldn't understand at all a couple of the CBs that went before this guy did. Great value pick here.

3. Trai Essex OT: . Goddamit Pittsburgh, you had a nice run going and then this turd comes floating to the top of the punchbowl. Haven't seen any of this kid, and he may turn out to be ok, but the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb was no matter how bad you want this guy...he'll be there in round 4 or 5!! :mad: Why take him now? Sigh. Supposedly this guy can play T or OG and they were impressed with his visit. Whatever. Definate reach here. Double the suck was that Elton Brown was still on the board here -- arizona took him about 10 picks later.

4. Fred Gibson, WR: Niiice. I will let them slide on that Essex pick, I think Gibson is value here. Good Height, Good speed, Will make the highlight reel catch and then drop the easy one. slight frame -- will likely need to be addressed. Hands sometimes questionable. Limited YAC. Sound like anyone who's name rhymes with "Traxico" ? All we've heard is that losing Plax meant we lost our ability to stretch the field. We may have just gotten in back here. Really like this pick to start the day off.

5. Rian "Goo" Wallace LB -- This guy played mostly OLB in college but I think they grabbed him to move him to ILB. Eh. Not horribly excited or PO'd about this pick.

6. Chris Kemoeatu OG -- SHWEEET! I was actually hoping we would grab this guy in the 5th round and here he was staring us in the face at the end of the 6th. This dude is big, strong, and pissed off. Has the measurables and the skills to be a dominant OG but needs to keep his head in check. Apparently he was suspended in consecutive games in college for shit after the wistle. I trust Russ Grimm can properly motivate him.

7a. Shaun Nua -- DE. Who? WHO?!? :( Crap pick # 2. Why is KayJay Harris still available...Why the F didn't we just draft him? Ugh.

7b. Noah Herron, RB. Again, I like KayJay HArris in this spot but obviously those running the show diagree. This kid is a good looking RB, a HB/FB hybrid. I get the feeling with this pick that Verron Haynes' days a Steeler may by numbered. We'll see.


All in all I am really happy with this draft. The past few years have been "pretty solid on day 1, but day 2 we'll just pick names out of a hat". This year I feel like they got at least 2 and potentially 4 players on day 2 who can help them out in the next year or two.

[mouthbreather]

FRANK GORE RB – I figure this was a good player available at that time pick.

I have no axe to grind with the 49s but I think they flopped on this pick. If they want to take a RB with this pick, that's fine....but taking one when Fiason, Barber (and for that matter, Sproles and Moats) were still on the boards doesn't make any sense to me at all. He's already had both his knees rebuilt...

[duffer]

Care to let me know who the next Cubs closer will be so I can pick him up in our fantasy league? :)

I have LaTroy Hawkins as an RP. Nobody deserves derision and mocking quite like me.

He could single-handedly guarantee a last place finish come October.

[Stuffy]

I have no axe to grind with the 49s but I think they flopped on this pick. If they want to take a RB with this pick, that's fine....but taking one when Fiason, Barber (and for that matter, Sproles and Moats) were still on the boards doesn't make any sense to me at all. He's already had both his knees rebuilt...


Like I said, I don't really get this pick either, he doesn't add anything we don't already have. :shrug:

[furt]

Philly:

Mike Patterson, DT: An excellent pick for their scheme. I was thinking DE, but I take this as a sign that the team still believes Jerome McDougal will come around. Corey Simon may very well be gone before the season starts, though I don't think so. My guess is they try to keep everyone this year before the mass purge next offseason.

Reggie Brown, WR: Freddie Mitchell is gone within the week, and my hunch is TO is gone after this year.

Matt McCoy, OLB, David Bergeon, ILB: McCoy was surprising, to me, but a solid pick. May start, and will probably lead to Simoneau or Dhani Jones being released; if Bergeron makes the team, probably the former.

Ryan Moats, RB: Will fit into the Iggle's preferred RB rotation. Conventional wisdom is that Westbrook is gone after this year; but I think he could stay if he can handle 200 carries/50 catches and stay healthy. Also will depend on how Moats looks.

Ryan Consadine, S: Their backup FS may be on IR, and Brian Dawkins isn't getting younger. Solid pick.

Todd Herremans, T; Scott Young, G; Calvin Armstrong, T: 3 linemen, 2 of which are "projects." The only way Tra Thomas and Jon Runyan are wearing green in 2006 is if the Jets want them.

Trent Cole, DE: Finally, a DE in round 5. May be a 3rd down rusher.

Keyonta Marshall, DT: 6'0" 355. Sweet Og, he's a fire hydrant. Goodbye Hollis Thomas.



My read on this: This is a team that will have a major makeover next offseason: looking at the Ourlad's depth chart, I count 8 to 12 starters who likely will not be with the team in 2006. As usual, they're looking ahead. They could have gone with immediate need at DE or TE, but that's a position they can fill with a rookie next year. Every single pick was made with an eye more on 2006 than 2005.

[ElvisL1ves]

The Jets took kicker Mike Nugent awfully high.That's the conventional wisdom, but only because the sport is so hidebound that kickers are still not considered real players.

But just look at the Patriots to see the importance of an absolutely reliable placekicker. They wouldn't have those 3 SB trophies with an ordinary one. But the Jets just might have won the last one if they'd had a Vinatieri of their own.

Nugent absolutely stood out at his position in college, and that position is one of the few that translates well to the pros. That pick looks fine to me.

Punters are generally interchangeable, though, a few yards here or there don't affect the outcome, and Denver can find one on the waiver wire almost anytime. The Clarett pick looks doubtful because he's both so raw and so irresponsible. They could have traded for Travis Henry with the same pick.

My Pats needed depth at the O-line and the secondary, and got it. They still need to get another veteran linebacker in case Bruschi's done, but the June 1 salary dump should provide one. Don't worry about Mel Kiper not liking the Mankins pick at #32; Belichick and Pioli have built more SB winners than Kiper has, so just shut the hell up, Mel.

[Omniscient]

Thats a hell of a good point about the Henry for a 3rd rounder possibility. Puts the magnitude of the Clarrett gaffe in perspective. Though you need to adjust for salary cap hit. He'd better be another Shannahan creation or else they are hosed.

[manhattan]

That's the conventional wisdom, but only because the sport is so hidebound that kickers are still not considered real players.

But just look at the Patriots to see the importance of an absolutely reliable placekicker. They wouldn't have those 3 SB trophies with an ordinary one. But the Jets just might have won the last one if they'd had a Vinatieri of their own.

Nugent absolutely stood out at his position in college, and that position is one of the few that translates well to the pros. That pick looks fine to me.
True on all counts. I'll also allow that a) the J-E-T-S know better than anyone that kickers are real players after the loss to Pittsburgh last year and b) they got their CB a few picks later, whereas they thought they couldn't do it by picking Miller first because the Vikings were thinking of taking Nugent. So they kind of got away with one there.

But still. This is the Jets we're talking about here, and the NFL draft. And even though kickers are real players there hasn't historically been a big return on picking them high in the draft. Disappointment and heartache are all but guaranteed to Gang Green from this (or any other) pick.

Ken O'Brian was a perfectly good quarterback, but in 1983 John Elway, Todd Blackledge, Jim Kelly and Tony Eason were gone. Remaining were O'Brian and some guy named Dan Marino. 'Nuff said.

[Omniscient]

Chicago Bears
There's been enough discussion of the first three picks, so I won't dwell on it too much here. As for the rest of the picks, I'm pretty underwhelmed. The Currie pick was a mystery. I think it's clear to me that they were searching for a WR in a iffy draft for WRs. He failed to impress in a really poor defensive conference and is considered a project. Not what they need, an ex-track guy without prototypical size, seems like a hopeless venture. Only managed 4.5-4.6 speed at the combine, so what exactly is the upside for a guy with only 2 TDs as a senior? If you draft Williams you don't need to pick either of these guys. Would have loved to see Anttaj Hawthorne go here. Those late round safeties are a mystery and probably won't make the squad on this fairly deep defense. All in all, a really crappy draft. Probably one of the worst in the league. Even if Benson is a star and Orton turns out to be a steal there's not enough depth added to like this showing. Boo!

Minnesota Vikings
Thankfully the Bears aren't the only one who squandered opportunity in this division. While the Vikes didn't pig it up quite as bad, they did manage to miss some opportunites. Williamson was major reach here, and even if he's a quality player, I bet he'd have been there with the 18th pick. James is probably a decent value there, but with the injury history could be a collossal bust. However these guys will likely be productive players, I'm just critical (and a little relieved) because the Vikes could have really done something earth shattering, and I'm glad I don't have to envision 10 years of Culpepper-to-Williams TD tosses. I think Fox was a bit of a reach, would have still been there on day 2, and I like Khalif Barnes better than Johnson in the 3rd round. Fason was a really solid pickup at that spot though, and might salvage RB for them.

Green Bay Packers
I'm a little torn on that Rodgers pick. I hope he's a moderate bust, nothing monumental like Leaf, more of a underachiever relegating the Pack to years of mediocrity like Harrington while they are afraid to give up on him. However, if he pans out it's a steal. In any case, he won't be an impact for 3 years at least so there's something of a reprieve. Its mitigated by the fact that there wasn't a stud WR, CB or DE available there instead, which would have had an immediate impact. Probably a good pick in the long run. The Nick Collins pick was a dud, but they are pretty desperate in the secondary and on defense in general, seems like Cody would have made more sense here. Really like the Terrance Murphy pick, I think he'll be a playmaker for them. The rest of the plethora of late round picks are a mixed bag, most of which I have never seen or heard of. The two of note are Coston and Montgomery. Coston will add depth if he's able to learn from a solid guy like Flanagan. Montgomery is areally nice pick at that stage and gives them some size and depth up front which they desperately need. All in a all, solid if unspectacular draft.

[/u]Detroit Lions[/u]
This might be the best draft by any team that didn't have extra early round picks. The only problem is they hardly address their two biggest needs. One of those rare times when going best-player-available pretty much constantly conflits with your existing roster as glaringly as it can. It's annoyingly obvious how highly I think of Williams, but sadly here he'll be hampered by Harringtons averageness and the prospect of sharing the ball with two stud WRs, a veteran who Harington likes throwing to and a pretty darn solid TE. Even if he's the secnd coming of Kellen Winslow Sr. (which is IS) he might not get enough touches to control games. Cody is a great fit too, they need a tweener like him to matchup against the contrasting styles and environments of the Bears, Pack and Vikes. Wilson is also a nice selecton, and playing against mediocre passing games like the Bears and Pack (maybe the Vikes too with the loss of Moss) will allow him to develop without getting cooked too bad. If only he had gotten a little help. Orlovsky is a frigging AWESOME pick there and finally a good fit as the heir apparent to Harrington. Goddard and Swancutt are terrific selections and will shore up that line, both with quite a bit of upside and should be productive early on. I'm shocked they didn't try to address the giant holes at LB and OL though. They didn't reach once ad don't have any real projects, but left themselves some holes. We'll see if they are able to make do somehow. I think just about any team would be happy to trade drafts with these guys.

The only other teams with a draft as solid are San Diego and Dallas.

[furt]

Two words: Russell Erxleben.

The real problem with taking a kicker is that he has to start and perform from day one. Any other position, if he's not ready to start you can put him behind someone else, give him spot duty, use him on special teams, and so on, putting him in situations where he's likely to succeed and gain confidence giving him time and coaching to progress.

A drafted kicker is going to start, and if he misses three of his first five and his confidence goes south and the crowds start booing him, there's nowhere to hide. And if he has a lousy rookie year, all you can do is bring him back and hope he's better, or else release him.

It's not that kickers are unimportant it's that as a group they're inconsistient. It's a bad gamble.

[Snooooopy]

That's the conventional wisdom, but only because the sport is so hidebound that kickers are still not considered real players.

But just look at the Patriots to see the importance of an absolutely reliable placekicker. They wouldn't have those 3 SB trophies with an ordinary one. But the Jets just might have won the last one if they'd had a Vinatieri of their own.

Nugent absolutely stood out at his position in college, and that position is one of the few that translates well to the pros. That pick looks fine to me.

When I look at the Patriots, I see a team that didn't blow a second-round pick on a kicker! :D

To be fair, part of my irritation with the Nugent pick was that I was under the impression that his range was limited. But after a little Internet searching, I have discovered that to be erroneous.

Even so, I'm never going to be a real big fan of taking kickers that high. I'd rather a team improve in other areas so that it's not even in a position to have to depend on whether a kicker is having a good day or not.

[mouthbreather]

Ken O'Brian was a perfectly good quarterback, but in 1983 John Elway, Todd Blackledge, Jim Kelly and Tony Eason were gone. Remaining were O'Brian and some guy named Dan Marino. 'Nuff said.

To be fair, almost every team passed on Marino in round 1. He had a "cocaine thing" clouding his value around draft time. No idea if it was the truth or not, but it was the perception.

[Ellis Dee]

When I look at the Patriots, I see a team that didn't blow a second-round pick on a kicker! :D

To be fair, part of my irritation with the Nugent pick was that I was under the impression that his range was limited. But after a little Internet searching, I have discovered that to be erroneous.

Even so, I'm never going to be a real big fan of taking kickers that high. I'd rather a team improve in other areas so that it's not even in a position to have to depend on whether a kicker is having a good day or not.I was listening to Herm Edwards on the Mike & Mike show yesterday, and while he never came out and said it, Herm basically made it clear, in no uncertain terms, that he (they) didn't feel Heath Miller was worth a first round pick. In fact, they didn't feel anybody after the first 10 or 15 were worth a first round pick. But they did feel there was a lot of quality in the second round. Thus they decided to trade down while picking up a "good enough" TE. Given that, I must grudgingly withdraw my Heath Miller complaint, no matter how disappointed I am about it.

Herm claimed drafting Nugent had nothing to do with Doug, but even he couldn't sell it convincingly. Mike Francesa made the point that you simply couldn't bring Brien back from such a debacle. If he were a promising rookie, ala the Chargers guy, or an established franchise kicker, ala Vinatieri/Vanderjagt, then you could get past the disaster in Pittsburgh and bring him back. But Brien was nothing more than a journyman, and already had a reputation for being solid in the regular season and choking in the playoffs. So he had to go. They figured Nugent wouldn't still be there for their original 2nd rounder, so they took him high.

Given everything I've heard about the CB they picked up with that pick, I'm starting to feel much better about it. Best kicker availabe in half a decade is a good pickup. Good return man to replace Santana Moss was a smart move. And they did get Coles, remember.

The biggest problem for Gang Green that I can see is that they never addressed their OL defections. McKenzie and Ferguson were both major contributors last year, and AFAIK, they haven't brough in anybody to replace them yet.

[manhattan]

To be fair, almost every team passed on Marino in round 1. He had a "cocaine thing" clouding his value around draft time. No idea if it was the truth or not, but it was the perception.Oh, sure, no argument there. The Jets weren't "wrong" to go with O'Brian, and to be sure he had a nice NFL career, better than Blackledge or Eason, IMO, both of whom went ahead of him. I'm just saying that with the Jets and the draft there's just no way to win. Even when they're right they're wrong.

[furt]

Best kicker availabe in half a decade is a good pickup.So in other words, he's almost as good as Janikowski?

[Ellis Dee]

So in other words, he's almost as good as Janikowski?Right now, he's not even that. He's almost as good of a prospect as Janikowski was. We won't know how good he really is until next January.

[furt]

Right now, he's not even that. He's almost as good of a prospect as Janikowski was. We won't know how good he really is until next January.The point was that Sea Bass sucked for 2-3 years. If Nugent isn't as good, og help you.

[mouthbreather]

I don't fault the Jets at all for taking Nugent late 2nd. He's kicked in snow and rain, he gets good distance on his kickoffs and he's clutch on the FGs. he was heads and shoulders above the next kicker in this class -- I heard all along he'd be a day one prospect, and given the Jets need for a kicker it makes sense to me.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Considering that they ended up with Justin Miller anyway, I don't see how you can find fault with the Nugent pick. I don't know if they really figured they'd be able to get Miller down there, but they must have considered it more likely that Nugent would be gone than all the corners they liked. They had (at least) two glaring needs entering the draft, had no first rounder, and they still filled them both with great players.

Put it this way - if you were the Jets, would you have traded a second-round pick for a good-to-excellent placekicker about three months ago?

[furt]

Put it this way - if you were the Jets, would you have traded a second-round pick for a good-to-excellent placekicker about three months ago?Probably. But Mike Nugent isn't a good-to-excellent placekicker, he's a prospect. He is a gamble, as is everyone in the draft.

The last 20 years' history (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/positions/K)

Kickers drafted in rounds 1-3 who were successful as rookies

Nate Kaeding

Who were mediocre as rookies:

Jason Hanson
Doug Brien
Jason Elam

Who sucked as rookies

Janikowski
Brett Conway
Chip Lohmiller
Jeff Jaeger
John Lee
Steve McLaughlin


The problem, as I noted above is that K/P are the only positions where you are forced to keep your mistakes in the starting lineup. If Nugent sucks in the first 8 games, you have 3 choices: 1) release him, wasting a draft pick 3) bench him and bring in someone else, wasting a roster spot or 3) keep playing him, going into the stretch with an unreliable kicker. Never a good gamble.

[asterion]

I think that's the nature of the game. You need to have a good punter and a good kicker. A punter can help you in field position and kicker can do the same with kickoffs, as well as field goals. They're such specialist positions that you have got to find a good one and if means drafting a K/P high, I say to do it. I'd say that the Broncos are in trouble this year--Knorr had major trouble last year and he's gone, and they've now got Jason Baker. Now, Baker isn't bad, though he keeps bouncing around the league. And Elam is old and doesn't do kickoffs. Don't get me wrong, there aren't many kickers I'd rather have than Elam, but the age could be a problem with injury. So the Broncos need a really good punter who can also make good kickoffs, assuming they don't keep Fredrickson around (which would be a mistake in my opinion.) Of course, Fredrickson has never even kicked a field goal in a game, so they're giving up a roster spot just for kickoffs. Assuming that you only have one kicker and one punter, punter is not an easy position to fill with a kickoff requirement.

[Omniscient]

Probably. But Mike Nugent isn't a good-to-excellent placekicker, he's a prospect. He is a gamble, as is everyone in the draft.

The last 20 years' history (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/positions/K)

Kickers drafted in rounds 1-3 who were successful as rookies

Nate Kaeding

Who were mediocre as rookies:

Jason Hanson
Doug Brien
Jason Elam

Who sucked as rookies

Janikowski
Brett Conway
Chip Lohmiller
Jeff Jaeger
John Lee
Steve McLaughlin


The problem, as I noted above is that K/P are the only positions where you are forced to keep your mistakes in the starting lineup. If Nugent sucks in the first 8 games, you have 3 choices: 1) release him, wasting a draft pick 3) bench him and bring in someone else, wasting a roster spot or 3) keep playing him, going into the stretch with an unreliable kicker. Never a good gamble.

One point I think you're missing is this: How many of these guys turned out o be complete busts? None. You're arguing how smart it was to take a kicker with a 2nd rounder. Looking at this list, whether they were decent as rookies is relevant, but not the point of the draft. The draft isn't a short-term prospect. If you broke down the list of second round QB/RB/CBs or any other position over the last 20 years, you'd find a group littered with total busts, hell some guys didn't end make the NFL after 2 years. Drafying a kicker is only stupid if that kicker would have been available a round or two later or as a undrafted FA, otherwise it's a good pick.

[ShibbOleth]

Probably. But Mike Nugent isn't a good-to-excellent placekicker, he's a prospect. He is a gamble, as is everyone in the draft.

The last 20 years' history (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/positions/K)

Kickers drafted in rounds 1-3 who were successful as rookies

Nate Kaeding



Not that I necessarily disagree with your point, but Martin Gramatica was taken in the third round by the Bucs out of Kansas State with the 80th overall pick. You could make a case that his rookie season (1999) was his best season. He was 84.4% on FGAs, 100% on EPs, made 27 FGs for the season, including 3 of 4 from 50+ yards. Don't know what your "success criteria" were.

[Ellis Dee]

The point was that Sea Bass sucked for 2-3 years. If Nugent isn't as good, og help you.What's the big deal if he chokes? It's not like that would be a change from what they had last year. By all accounts, if you wanted a kicker, this was the best guy available. There isn't a scout in the country who would disagree. This isn't a Ryan Leaf/Peyton Manning scenario, or even last year's Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger situation, where there were differing opinions on who would be the better player. Nugent was unanimously considered the best.

The Jets, simply put, took the best kicker available to fill a glaring need on their roster. To suggest that it will have been shown to be a bad move if the kicker doesn't perform is picking nits of the highest order.

Now, a much more valid - and relevant - complaint about Nugent is that Herm, already much too conservative, will be even more likely to kneel the ball twice and try a 50 yard game winner. That's the real downside.

It reminds me of the controversy last year on NY radio immediately after the divisional game. Herm was quoted as saying that plenty of coaches would have done the same thing. He really dug himself into a hole with the particulars: (paraphrased)

"Bill Cowher called nothing but running plays on their last drive, and kicked the game winner. Marty Schottenheimer called runs and a field goal against us last week. And then you look at a guy like Bill Belichick, who called a pass on 4th and got stopped."

After playing that natural sound, the sports guys on the WFAN went out of their minds. (paraphrased) "Where's Cowher's Superbowl rings? Where's Marty's Lombardi trophy? Belichick is a proven winner. You should point to him as an example of what you are supposed to do, you idiot!"

[furt]

One point I think you're missing is this: How many of these guys turned out o be complete busts? None. You're talking out of your ass. Three were total busts; two more were only good later, and for teams other than the one that drafted them.

[furt]

Shibb -- you're correct, I missed Gramatica; he was an unqualified success (Kaeding was the only other one above 75%)

What's the big deal if he chokes? It's not like that would be a change from what they had last year. By all accounts, if you wanted a kicker, this was the best guy available. There isn't a scout in the country who would disagree. And the point is that the scouts ALWAYS overestimate how accurate their predictions are and Mel Kiper is wrong most of the time.

Every single kicker on that list was "the best guy availible."
Russell Erxleben was the "greatest college kicker ever"
Tony Franklin was the "greatest college kicker ever"

Kicking is by its nature unpredictable: its all about confidence and rhythym. Every draft pick is a crapshoot; the trick is to do the best you can and play the odds.

Let's say you bring in Martin Gramatica (or any of the other widely-availible kickers); he's had success in the past, let'd give him a 50% chance of being a success. But guess what: you're paying him squat, and his bonus is small. If he starts 3-for-8 and costs you a game, you can dump him and try someone else. In other words, his downside is minimized.

Let's say Nugent has a 65% chance of success; that's better, right? Except that if he does fail, if he starts 3-for-8, you're married to him. He sucks and he's probably going to suck all year long. But you're stuck with him because you invested a 2nd round pick and also the cap hit ... so you do not have the option of trying someone else. You're stuck with the SOB.

Given the nature of the position, it's nuts to make a long-term committment to a completely unknown quantity. Which is true for virtually every early round pick; but the difference is that if, say, a CB isn't good enough to start, he still has some value: he can play on nickel formations or on special teams. And above all, he at least won't actively hurt your team while he takes a year or two to learn. A bad kicker will.

[ShibbOleth]

And the point is that the scouts ALWAYS overestimate how accurate their predictions are and Mel Kiper is wrong most of the time.

That's probably true for every position.


I was thinking about how we get all hyped up about the draft, but it's really impossible to know, in the short term, how good a draft is. So I went to the NFL archives and pulled up draft info from five years ago (""). I'm going to just look at Round 1 and pull out some names that stick out at me, but I'd be interested if you look at your team in the rear-view mirror, how do you think you did? And do you remember how you think they did at the time? (We really need to keep these threads for posterity)

2000 NFL Draft Round 1:

1 Cleveland Courtney Brown DE Penn State
2 Washington LaVar Arrington OLB Penn State
3 Washington Chris Samuels T Alabama
4 Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR Florida State
5 Baltimore Jamal Lewis RB Tennessee
6 Philadelphia Corey Simon DT Florida State
7 Arizona Thomas Jones RB Virginia
8 Pittsburgh Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
9 Chicago Brian Urlacher MLB New Mexico
10 Baltimore Travis Taylor WR Florida
11 N.Y. Giants Ron Dayne RB Wisconsin
12 N.Y. Jets Shaun Ellis DE Tennessee
13 N.Y. Jets John Abraham DE South Carolina
14 Green Bay Bubba Franks TE Miami
15 Denver Deltha O'Neal CB California
16 San Francisco Julian Peterson OLB Michigan State
17 Oakland Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
18 N.Y. Jets Chad Pennington QB Marshall
19 Seattle Shaun Alexander RB Alabama
20 Detroit Stockar McDougle T Oklahoma
21 Kansas City Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
22 Seattle Chris McIntosh T Wisconsin
23 Carolina Rashard Anderson CB Jackson State
24 San Francisco Ahmed Plummer CB Ohio State
25 Minnesota Chris Hovan DT Boston College
26 Buffalo Erik Flowers DE Arizona State
27 N.Y. Jets Anthony Becht TE West Virginia
28 Indianapolis Rob Morris MLB Brigham Young
29 Jacksonville R. Jay Soward WR Southern California
30 Tennessee Keith Bulluck OLB Syracuse
31 St. Louis Trung Canidate RB Arizona


Overall, a lot better than I thought. I've heard of most of those guys; some are stars while others have been disappointing. And note that the Raiders could have picked up Chad Pennington or Shaun Alexander, but decided to go with Janikowski instead.

Some second round names that pop out at me:

Cleveland - Dennis Northcutt - Cleveland
Philadelphia - Todd Pinkston
Denver - Kenoy Kennedy
Oakland - Jerry Porter (Maybe a better pick than Janikowski?)
Indianapolis - Marcus Washington

Third round:
Tennessee - Erron Kinney
N.Y. Jets - Laveranues Coles
Detroit - Reuben Droughns

Nobody really jumped out at me from the fourth round.

Round 5
Green Bay - Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Kansas City - Dante' Hall


Round 6
New Orleans - Marc Bulger
Denver - Mike Anderson
New England - Tom Brady

Not a bad sixth round for a few teams.

Round 7
San Francisco - Tim Rattay

Of course, there are probably a lot of down linemen or defensive guys out there on other teams that I'm not familiar with. The Bucs didn't have a first that year, I think they traded two that they had for Keyshawn Johnson. It seemed like a good deal at that time, but looking at how that class turned out, if you let me pick one from the top of the first round and one from the bottom, then Keyshawn was definitely a mistake. They took Cosey Coleman with their second which was not great but not a total disaster. He has been hurt a lot but a functional (mostly) starter.

But at least we didn't draft Ron Dayne that year.

[Omniscient]

You're talking out of your ass. Three were total busts; two more were only good later, and for teams other than the one that drafted them.

Well, I admit to not bothering to look up the names I didn't recognize (Lee and McLoughlin) which did turn out to be busts, I think you're being overly harsh on the rest. Conway's career never took off after a rough rookie season, but when he had chances he was consistent. Not sure I'd call him a total bust, though he underachieved. The rest I think had excellent to above average careers, the stats at pro-football-reference back this up.

Still, unles you're the Rams it appears that drafting a top-flight kicker pans out at a much higher rate than any other position.

[Hal Briston]

But at least we didn't draft Ron Dayne that year.<...grumble grumble muttered obscenity grumble...>

[ShibbOleth]

<...grumble grumble muttered obscenity grumble...>

I knew that one was going to hurt somebody, just couldn't remember who. Sorry.



Really, really, sorry.

[Hal Briston]

Hey, who's complaining? He did a terrific job last year...



...in preseason. :: resumes grumbling ::

[Omniscient]

Wow, I never noticed how incredibly productive that draft was. All in all, there's hardly any complete Mandarich caliber busts. Dayne is the closest thing to it (though he was productive for a couple seasons), and Courtney Brown needs to step up still, but top to bottom teams did an excellent job in that draft.

I'd be willing to accept that taking a kicker in the first round if is a bad idea when you consider the likelyhood of first rounders panning out at other positions. However, when you go to the second round its a total crap shoot. I'd say on a quick look that less than half of those 2nd rounders cracked into starting lineups and stayed there. Some were stars and pro bowlers, but just as many are benchwarmers or worse.

Using that as a measuring stick, if you can decide that "top rated" kickers pan out at a better than 50/50 rate in the second round then it's not a really poor pick and the odds are in your favor compared to other positions.

[lno]

I knew that one was going to hurt somebody, just couldn't remember who. Sorry.



Really, really, sorry.I'm not. HA-HA! The Giants suck! They're big doodyheads! Nyah! Nyah!

Okay. Now that that's been said, I freely acknowledge the dominance of the Giants over the Vikings in the past few years. But this year will be different.

I hope.

[Ellis Dee]

So I went to the NFL archives and pulled up draft info from five years ago ("").I knew immediately which draft you were talking about, as it has been a topic of discussion on the giants.com messageboards.But at least we didn't draft Ron Dayne that year.He's going to be the ultimate example of Boomer's "former Giant, now good" classification. (Along with Tyrone Wheatley and Joe Jeruvicious. (sp?)) I do hope he has a breakout year with the Broncos, assuming he manages to make the 53 man roster. (That's a big if.)

But c'mon, how can you say he was a bad pick? What were we going to do; take a total scrub like Shaun Alexander? (FUCK!!!!)

Once they jettisoned Dayne, (finally,) the Giants had purged every player they drafted in 2000. I wouldn't have minded keeping Brandon Short around, and even Dhani Jones had some ability. Ron Dixon's body finally gave out and he retired. I liked Ralph Brown. I'm pretty sure the other two didn't last more than two years in the league. All in all, 2000 was not our best year. Hell, 2001 wasn't so hot either. (That was the year we picked up the two Wills.) EA didn't really start producing decent drafts until 2002. I've been very pleased the last few years, although I will be closely watching William Joseph to see if he finally steps up this year. (Even if he doesn't, Osi is so good as to make up for a first round bust.)

[ShibbOleth]

Ah, but the question is, what did you and/or the local pundits think of the draft at the time. I ask because I don't recall any year that the two local papers weren't upbeat about the draft. The Draft is the NFL's version of Spring Training -- everyone is a winner*.








*With the exception of the Jets, who seem to never like their draft. But let's look at their draft that year:

1 12 Shaun Ellis DE Tennessee
1 13 John Abraham DE South Carolina
1 18 Chad Pennington QB Marshall
1 27 Anthony Becht TE West Virginia
3 78 Laveranues Coles WR Florida State
5 143 Windrell Hayes WR Southern California
6 179 Tony Scott CB North Carolina State
7 218 Richard Seals DT Utah

Of course, having four picks in the first round is just ridiculous. Shaun Ellis has been solid and consistent, if not a household name. Abraham has underperformed, but still there. Chad Pennington has been a very good QB when not injured. We just got Anthony Becht who is a solid but not flashy blocking tight end. Laveranues Coles is good but was overvalued by the Skins. I don't know about the other three, but even if they never played a down you certainly can't grouse about that draft.

[Ellis Dee]

Ah, but the question is, what did you and/or the local pundits think of the draft at the time. I ask because I don't recall any year that the two local papers weren't upbeat about the draft. The Draft is the NFL's version of Spring Training -- everyone is a winner*.True that. Except, of course, last year when everyone was in fits after giving up two first round picks, a third round, and a fifth round for an egotistical rookie who would supplant the popular incumbent. It got even worse when we released Collins shortly thereafter. Last year was most certainly not a year in which the draft seemed to help the team. Most fans were pissed at Ernie Accorsi; it appeared he was hurting the franchise in the short term in order to solidify his legacy, as he will likely be retiring in the next couple years.

At the time, it semed like a stupid move, but now it seems like pure genius. If ever there was a draft where you would be okay not having a first round pick, this was it. Not to mention all the extra cap space we had with which to be aggressive in free agency.

The Giants look great on paper, having addressed 7 key areas of need with reasonably high quality players. (8 if you count Jay Feely, the kicker.) If they don't make the playoffs, I'll be pissed. (Considering how feeble the conference was last year, it's not a reach. Hell, we were a wildcard team up until week 10, IIRC.)*With the exception of the Jets, who seem to never like their draft.

Of course, having four picks in the first round is just ridiculous. Shaun Ellis has been solid and consistent, if not a household name. Abraham has underperformed, but still there. Chad Pennington has been a very good QB when not injured. We just got Anthony Becht who is a solid but not flashy blocking tight end. Laveranues Coles is good but was overvalued by the Skins. I don't know about the other three, but even if they never played a down you certainly can't grouse about that draft.Nobody does. That was the best draft in franchise history. It was almost as good as the worst Ravens draft. (Those guys have some serious scouting ability. They're freaks.)

[Ellis Dee]

That was a bit more rambling than I intended. To clarify, almost every NY area paper was down on the Giants draft in 2004. So were the fans.

Even ignoring Eli, Chris Snee (the second rounder) was viewed as a homer pick by Coughlin, being that Snee is his daughter's baby daddy. (Many a fan voiced the sentiment 'If I knocked up TC's daughter, could I play for the Giants?') Snee turned out to be a pretty damn good pickup, but at the time was viewed as overrated.

Since we sent the third rounder to SD in the Eli trade, that left us with 2 picks on the first day, and neither ended up being a player the fans and (NY area) media were thrilled about.

[furt]

Well, I admit to not bothering to look up the names I didn't recognize (Lee and McLoughlin) which did turn out to be busts, I think you're being overly harsh on the rest. Conway's career never took off after a rough rookie season, but when he had chances he was consistent. Not sure I'd call him a total bust, though he underachieved. The rest I think had excellent to above average careers, the stats at pro-football-reference back this up.We're talking about the wisdom of drafting a kicker high: if he's cut by the team that took him, as Conway was, or if he sucks while playing for the team that took him, and only later is any good, that's a bust.

[kidchameleon]

In addition to making bad trades, what the hell are the 'skins thinking drafting another QB? Now they've got 3 high-priced (well, one HIGH and two probably medium) QBs plus Hasselback on a team that's built to win today and end up like the 9ers in a few years.

Not that I mind the meddling of Danny Snyder. I'm thinking it's almost time for him to get a new coach...