Can someone explain DC's Apokolips to me?

[Lumpy]

Just who are this planet's inhabitants? Gods/Demons? Aliens? Transplanted humans? I never could make heads or tails of the "New Gods" mythos, perhaps it was never more than a half-baked idea of Kirby's, and DC hasn't strictly hewn to the original vision anyway.

I ask because the episode I just saw of Justice League Unlimited, "The Ties That Bind", was set on Apokolips. One of the inhabitants, name of Vermin Vundabar(!?) seemed to be- well, Der Evil Prussian Baron; almost a caricature of the concept. I couldn't figure out if this personage was somehow an incarnation of an evil archtype, or if there some some reason why one of the lords of an alien planet would look and talk like Erich Von Stroheim.

[Ranchoth]

Yeah, the "New Gods"/"Apokolips" thing's always been a bit fuzzy to me, too. But, as I remember from the DC Comics Encyclopedia (not a helluva lot of which sticks in my head, and I'm too tired and lazy to look it up right now. sorry), they aren't transplanted humans, I don't think.

One thing I do remember reading there (after seeing the JLU episode) is that Vermin Vundabar, a native Apokolipianite (vhatever), is actually like hundreds of years old, he once went on a mission to Earth during the 19th century, became enchanted with the Prussian Martial tradition, and patterned a new persona after it. (I don't know what he called himself before that.)

[Kamino Neko]

Vermin Vundabar, a native Apokolipianite (vhatever)

Apokaliptian.

[CandidGamera]

Geez, it's complicated, are you sure you wanna know?

Well, the gist of it, near as I can tell, is that the big massive clump of energy at the core of the universe, AKA The Source, occasionally will send out a pulse of "godifying" energy. Darkseid and Highfather and the gang were created/empowered by the pulse after the one that created the Olypmians and other such deities, hence "The New Gods". Of course, there was a subsequent pulse responsible for the huge surge of metahumans on Earth after that, so now they're the "Certified Preowned" Gods.

The DC crossover event "Genesis" was the last thing to reference this, as far as I can tell.

[Menocchio]

Geez, it's complicated, are you sure you wanna know?

Well, the gist of it, near as I can tell, is that the big massive clump of energy at the core of the universe, AKA The Source, occasionally will send out a pulse of "godifying" energy. Darkseid and Highfather and the gang were created/empowered by the pulse after the one that created the Olypmians and other such deities, hence "The New Gods". Of course, there was a subsequent pulse responsible for the huge surge of metahumans on Earth after that, so now they're the "Certified Preowned" Gods.

The DC crossover event "Genesis" was the last thing to reference this, as far as I can tell.

That's the current, explict in-continuity reason, sure. But the subtext was that there was the Norse Gods, then Ragnarok happened.

These are the New Gods, risen from their ashes.

[Cliffy]

The idea of the New Gods rising from the ashes of the old (and specifically out of Raganarok) is pretty plainly a metaphor Kirby used to describe how his Fourth World project at DC, written by him and ostensibly under his complete control, was his own ascendance over his work at Marvel and his difficult relationship with Stan Lee. (Thor was one of the team's great successes.)

Anyway, originally the Old Gods died, and from their ashes sprang two worlds. The peaceful, pastoral New Genesis and the barren, over-industrialized Apokalips. The inhabitants are gods like Marvel's Thor was -- stronger than humans, with awesome powers at their command. They're not gods in the mythological sense, though, not being identified with natural forces (thunder, life, knowledge, etc.) However, many do have their own idioyncratic powers -- Orion wields the Astro-Force, for instance. So it's not really correct to think of the New Gods as the gods of Apokalips -- they're the typical inhabitants of Apokalips, but they're also as powerful as gods (comic book gods, anyway).

It's difficult to explain Kirby's auctorial charms -- you have to just grapple with them yourself. Basically, for Kirby, goofy and powerful are the same thing. In a way it's terribly unsophistifcated, but IMO it's also engrossing. YMMV, of course, but the silliness is very much part of the package.

--Cliffy

[BrainGlutton]

See these Wikipedia articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kirby%27s_Fourth_World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkseid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_People

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Miracle

And these entries from the Toonopedia:

http://www.toonopedia.com/foreverp.htm

http://www.toonopedia.com/newgods.htm

http://www.toonopedia.com/mmiracle.htm

[CandidGamera]

That's the current, explict in-continuity reason, sure. But the subtext was that there was the Norse Gods, then Ragnarok happened.

These are the New Gods, risen from their ashes.

Trouble is, I wasn't around back when old Jack was writing for DC, and despite my massive amount of comic book reading since I turned two, I can't recall running across this notion ever before.

And it would be at odds with current continuity of the DCU, also.

I'm not saying that's not how it was, though.

So, essentially, the New Gods arose from the ashes of the Justice Society? ;)

(Yeah, I know Kirby's stuff predates Last Days - it's just amusing imagery.)

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Wow, someone else who read Last Days of the Justice Society! That was one of my favorite comics when I was a kid (along with the follow-up in Infinity Inc. #30, which I have autographed by McFarlane, who looked insulted when I brought him that instead of a Spawn comic to sign). I'm sorry about the hijack, I just like seeing people who don't think that the JSA STARTED with Geoff Johns.

As for Kirby's Fourth World mythos, I could never get into it. Stuff like Virman Vundabar and Granny Goodness was too campy and silly and kept me from taking the whole thing seriously, and those oh-so-'70s character designs haven't aged well at all. Darkseid is just a glorified jobber--I'm not sure if he's ever actually beaten any superheroes. I love Mister Miracle and Barda and the concept of the Mother Box, but I like them so much more as Earth-based heroes, aligned with the Justice League.

[CandidGamera]

Wow, someone else who read Last Days of the Justice Society! That was one of my favorite comics when I was a kid (along with the follow-up in Infinity Inc. #30, which I have autographed by McFarlane, who looked insulted when I brought him that instead of a Spawn comic to sign). I'm sorry about the hijack, I just like seeing people who don't think that the JSA STARTED with Geoff Johns.

As I've mentioned on here before, I learned to read with Roy Thomas's All-Star Squadron, as well as Justice League of America.

I'm trying to complete my run of All-Star Squadron and America vs. the Justice Society, too.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Which ones do you need? I have a knack for finding comics.

[CandidGamera]

I'll have to check my lists at home, and get back to you.

[Menocchio]

Trouble is, I wasn't around back when old Jack was writing for DC, and despite my massive amount of comic book reading since I turned two, I can't recall running across this notion ever before.

And it would be at odds with current continuity of the DCU, also.

I'm not saying that's not how it was, though.

So, essentially, the New Gods arose from the ashes of the Justice Society? ;)

(Yeah, I know Kirby's stuff predates Last Days - it's just amusing imagery.)

It's not explict, but if you read the New Gods stuff where he talks about the Old Gods, the Third World, and how they died, it's pretty clear he's talking about Ragnarok. This was back in the days were inter-book continuity was pretty loose. And of course, the Norse pantheon itself is too cool to write off as dead*, so DC never stopped doing stuff with them, either, but that's where Kirby's coming from, at least.

My question, is that there seems to be at leats two kinds of "humans" on New Genesis/Apokolips. The Gods and the little guys, such as the Hunger Dogs of Apokolips. Is this impression right, or are the masses separated from the Gods only by gadgets, ability, and social position?

*I'm antsy whenever someone makes a major lasting change to world mythology and declares these changes to be enshrined in canon forever. I loved Sandman, and haven't heard anything but good things about Lucifer, but I really wish DC hadn't declared Lucifer's abdication to hold true for all their books. It makes telling a good devil story just that more difficult.

[Kaspar Hauser]

As I've mentioned on here before, I learned to read with Roy Thomas's All-Star Squadron, as well as Justice League of America.

I'm trying to complete my run of All-Star Squadron and America vs. the Justice Society, too.

I've spent the last few years trying to collect every Earth-? comic since the seventies. It's what 50-cent bins were made for!

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

*I'm antsy whenever someone makes a major lasting change to world mythology and declares these changes to be enshrined in canon forever. I loved Sandman, and haven't heard anything but good things about Lucifer, but I really wish DC hadn't declared Lucifer's abdication to hold true for all their books. It makes telling a good devil story just that more difficult.

If it makes you feel any better, Hellblazer has been telling great devil stories for over 200 issues without Lucifer himself, and the DCU has plenty of demonic stand-ins such as Neron and Etrigan, the rhyming demon.

[Menocchio]

If it makes you feel any better, Hellblazer has been telling great devil stories for over 200 issues without Lucifer himself, and the DCU has plenty of demonic stand-ins such as Neron and Etrigan, the rhyming demon.

True. And it's not like Lucifer himself pops up in most superhero tales anyway, as if using Satan openly, rather than a stand-in like Neron or Mephisto would summon fundamentalists in a puff a brimstone.

I just blanche at the concept of closing off or altering a major world mythology for every writer in your company, forever. I'll be simillarly annoyed if Zeus isn't restored to his throne over in Wonder Woman, for instance, since she's not the only person in the DCU with ties to the Greek pantheon.

[D_Odds]

If it makes you feel any better, Hellblazer has been telling great devil stories for over 200 issues without Lucifer himself, and the DCU has plenty of demonic stand-ins such as Neron and Etrigan, the rhyming demon.
Etrigan isn't rhyming anymore. Also, I love the use of the term "jobber". Darkseid certainly didn't get the respect Thanos did, but Thanos had Jim Starlin in his corner most of the time.

Lastly, how can people mention the term 'campy' without pointing out that death comes riding not on a pale horse, but on skis!

[Kythereia]

I always thought the name was kind of goofy...

[Cliffy]

My question, is that there seems to be at leats two kinds of "humans" on New Genesis/Apokolips. The Gods and the little guys, such as the Hunger Dogs of Apokolips. Is this impression right, or are the masses separated from the Gods only by gadgets, ability, and social position?

I don't think it's ever made particularly clear in the Kirby Fourth World books, but i get the impression it's more of the latter. AFAIK, there's no evidence of non-godly folk on New Genesis, although there are certainly people with more or less power than others. (Compare Orion vs. the Forever People.)

--Cliffy

[Lumpy]

I don't think it's ever made particularly clear in the Kirby Fourth World books, but i get the impression it's more of the latter. AFAIK, there's no evidence of non-godly folk on New Genesis, although there are certainly people with more or less power than others. (Compare Orion vs. the Forever People.)

--CliffyI thought I saw some issue of a DC comic showing a spaceship offloading a cargo of slaves on Apokolips?

LIke I said in OP, I don't think DC has kept the concept consistant. For example, Apokolips is apparently a planet located somewhere in physical space (unlike Marvel's Asgard, which is in a mythical plane), but then you have to ask just where the Source Wall is (other than "the end of Infinity" or some such).

[Menocchio]

LIke I said in OP, I don't think DC has kept the concept consistant. For example, Apokolips is apparently a planet located somewhere in physical space (unlike Marvel's Asgard, which is in a mythical plane), but then you have to ask just where the Source Wall is (other than "the end of Infinity" or some such).

Actually, Apokolips/New Genesis are in another dimension from Earth, unlike say Rann, Krypton, and Thanagar. Apparently, if you somehow go there without being translated through a Boom Tube, you'll be really tiny when you come out. Supergirl found this out when she used her flaming wings* to teleport there in pursuit of some Female Furies.

*'Twas an odd period for the Maid of Might.

[Kamino Neko]

Etrigan isn't rhyming anymore.

Neron is, though.

[Ranchoth]

Just a quick question...are Apokolips and New Genesis somehow vital to the existance of the universe in some magical/cosmic sense—kind of like if you killed Marvel's Galactus, the universe would end, or something—or could you get away with destroying one or both of them with a Planet-Killer?

[Kamino Neko]

They're not particularly vital - a couple Elseworlds and potential futures have posited the destruction of one or the other. Apokalips was (accidentally) wiped out in The Nail, for instance.

[Gamaliel]

"There came a time when the old gods died! The brave died with the cunning! The noble perished, locked in battle with unleashed evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in a fiery holocaust!" - the opening words of New Gods # 1

Also, I'm pretty sure Apokolips is just a planet in our universe, but I can't find my dc universe atlas to verify.

[Dunderman]

I loved Sandman, and haven't heard anything but good things about Lucifer, but I really wish DC hadn't declared Lucifer's abdication to hold true for all their books. It makes telling a good devil story just that more difficult.
A little hijack: could someone explain how this works in conjunction with Hellblazer?

Are Lucifer, Azrael and Beelzebub of Sandman the same as the First, Second and Third in Hellblazer? If so, how could Lucifer both abdicate in Sandman and be killed by Ellie in Hellblazer, at which time he is very much still in control of Hell? How come Azrael can both be imprisoned in a glass jar by Dream and destroyed by the First? If they're not the same, why doesn't the First mention Lucifer when he's telling his life story to Constantine in Rake at the Gates of Hell, and where are the Three during Dream's visit to Hell?

[Kamino Neko]

A little hijack: could someone explain how this works in conjunction with Hellblazer?

Are Lucifer, Azrael and Beelzebub of Sandman the same as the First, Second and Third in Hellblazer? If so, how could Lucifer both abdicate in Sandman and be killed by Ellie in Hellblazer, at which time he is very much still in control of Hell? How come Azrael can both be imprisoned in a glass jar by Dream and destroyed by the First? If they're not the same, why doesn't the First mention Lucifer when he's telling his life story to Constantine in Rake at the Gates of Hell, and where are the Three during Dream's visit to Hell?

The First of the Fallen predated Lucifer and his wave of fallen angels. He ruled Hell - or what would become Hell - before Lucifer arived, and he took the throne again after he abdicated. Nor are the Second and Third Azazel and Beelzebub. I have only skimmed Rake at Hell's Gate (I'm still in the middle of Delano's run), so I can't say anything about his explaining things to Constantine, but the First does mention Lucifer when he's explaining to the Second and Third how they're not the same as him. Lucifer was either more powerful, or more clever and it took him clearing out for the First to get a chance to come to power again.

As to where they were in Sandman... They weren't in power, they weren't directly serving anyone in power, they didn't hold any of Dream's friends or possessions, they didn't watch the gates and they either left Hell of their own free will or were driven off by Lucifer before Dream showed up for his tour of Hell. Dream, Cain, etc just didn't run into them.

The only problem I'm seeing is what happened to Remiel and Dumas? Are they playing hands off? Does the First draw his authority from them? Did he manage to overpower them?