What the hell kind of question was that?

[MentalGuy]

My father passed away last week. I just returned to work yesterday. As various coworkers have seen me they have offered their condolences. This is all fine. Then one coworker after the normal expressions of sympathy asks "Did he know the Lord?". What? Even though I am a nonbeliever I knew my father well enough to answer yes to the question as she intended it. But what if the answer had been no? Was she going to say "Sorry about your father going to hell?"

Also the way she said it made me want to say "He knew of him, but he was a couple of years of ahead of him in school so they weren't good friends."

[Mr. Blue Sky]

But what if the answer had been no? Was she going to say "Sorry about your father going to hell?"

No, but she was probably thinking it.


Also the way she said it made me want to say "He knew of him, but he was a couple of years of ahead of him in school so they weren't good friends."

:D

[SteveG1]

Maybe you should have? Someone should have told her off then or later, for being such a moron. Never underestimate the ability of some people to be complete assholes, no matter what the situation.

For what it's worth, you do have my condolences.

[Revtim]

My sympathies MentalGuy.

When my father died a few years ago, and the rest of my life was turning into shit as well, I used to hear "this is all part of God's plan...", as if somehow the fact that all the horrible things happening to me were on some old bearded guy's list was supposed to me make me feel better. Some people just don't realize they need to think about what they're saying and realize their beliefs are worse than useless to share.

[Guinastasia]

When my godmother and favorite aunt died, the principal at our school, a nun, said, "Well, as much as you miss her, remember you now have someone else to pray to." I was only 11, but I remember being sooooo pissed. Yeah, I can PRAY to her and ask her for guidance. But I won't see her at family gatherings, or be able to hug her anymore. That's GREAT.

[cosmosdan]

I don't fault people for believeing whatever they do or for being true to their beliefs.
But that was very inapropriate and thoughtless. Since there was nothing she could do if he didn't "know the Lord" in her terms, then why ask? Better to offer condolences or offer to pray for you.

Any Chrsitian Dopers have an opinion?

Maybe a good response would have been
"You mean in the Biblical sense?"

[The Asbestos Mango]

Mental Guy, my prayers are with you. And I have personally witnessed this type of situation. When I was going to a Fund'ist Baptist School, my best friend's grandmother died. In my clumsy efforts to comfort my friend I did my best to assure her, "She's in Heaven now, she's at peace." It wasn't working. Just then another girl came into the restroom, saw what was going on, and asked, "Was your grandmother saved?" It didn't occur to me at the time what a wildly innapropriate question this was. Mind you, about 99% of us bought into the whole Fund'ist dogma of salvation, and in Fund'ist circles, this is actually sort of a normal question to ask. But really, a moment's thought (something Fund'ists are not known for) would bring about the realization that by asking "Was your grandmother saved?" or "Did your father know the Lord?" is tantamount to asking, "Did your departed loved one subscribe to my particular version of Christianity? 'Cause, you know, if they didn't, they are now suffering the torments of aitch-eee-double-hockey-sticks".

Not only is the question inappropriate and uncomforting, it is downright cruel, especially if the bereaved is not a Fund'ist.

[NinetyWt]

First, my condolences MentalGuy.

I had the pleasure of experiencing this at a 'reception' held after my husband's first wife passed away. It was weird enough going to a function at Her sister's house. Then my hubby's brother-in-law (hefty, sweaty Bible-thumpin' fundie) corners me.

He says. "DOYOUKNOWTHELORDJESUSCHRISTASYOURSAVIOUR?!?!?"

First I'm thinking, Huh ? Is that one word??

I gathered my wits and replied politely, "I'm a cradle Episcopalian; I was baptized at one week old. We don't look at God's grace as a *one-time* thing; we try to walk daily in His teachings."

Well, you would've thought I had suddenly sprouted two heads. Next comes a diatribe about the one Episcopalian he had met who "DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE BIBLE !!!!!111!!"

I thought I'd never get out of that corner. The gall, the unmitigated gall of that man. And at a wake no less !!

It's people like that who turn folks away from spirituality.

[CynicalGabe]

One guy I work with, his mother passed away from cancer a few weeks ago. The fundies I work with were quite pleased that she was saved before she passed. Not that its a bad thing, since she asked for a priest, and the son was glad she died peacefully. But if it were my parent, I would told them where to shove it. Even if the deceased became "Saved", it would not be any of their fudging business.

[Tuckerfan]

One guy I work with, his mother passed away from cancer a few weeks ago. The fundies I work with were quite pleased that she was saved before she passed. Not that its a bad thing, since she asked for a priest, and the son was glad she died peacefully. But if it were my parent, I would told them where to shove it. Even if the deceased became "Saved", it would not be any of their fudging business.
Did they know she was Catholic? A lot of fundies think that if you're Catholic, you're going to hell. Stupid, stupid, stupid, IMHO. A God that would condemn a decent human being to hell, simply because of the flavor of their religion is not a God worth worshipping, IMHO.

MentalGuy, if you had said "No" and she were a decent Christian (well, a decent Christian probably wouldn't ask such a question, but you know what I mean), she would probably have said something like, "Well, I will pray for him, in hopes that God will take his soul up to Heaven." My deepest sympathies on the loss of your father.

[Siege]

I don't fault people for believeing whatever they do or for being true to their beliefs.
But that was very inapropriate and thoughtless. Since there was nothing she could do if he didn't "know the Lord" in her terms, then why ask? Better to offer condolences or offer to pray for you.

Any Chrsitian Dopers have an opinion?

Maybe a good response would have been
"You mean in the Biblical sense?"
This Christian thinks that's a good response, along with "He knew of him, but he was a couple of years of ahead of him in school so they weren't good friends." My actual response would probably have been a shocked, "Excuse me?!" since being rude and snarky goes against my Christian beliefs, however tempting and justified it is! ;) Then again, my stock mental response to the question, "Have you found Jesus?" is "Some of us never lost Him." That or, "Yes. He was behind the couch all along!"

Mentalguy, as far as I'm concerned, you handled the situation well. My condolences on the loss of your father and my sympathies on your having been afflicted with an idiot. I wonder if these people have any idea how bad they make Christianity work. I'm willing to assume they mean well and are sincere at least some of the time, but talk about a rude question!

CJ

[swampbear]

MentalGuy I'm sorry for your loss. I've been there and, as you have discovered, found out that the world is full of asshats. Probably well meaning asshats, but asshats nonetheless.

Then again, my stock mental response to the question, "Have you found Jesus?" is "Some of us never lost Him." That or, "Yes. He was behind the couch all along!"
Just to add one of my favorites. "What do you mean? You were supposed to be keeping an eye on him! You know he'll wander off if you turn your head for even just one second!"

Also the way she said it made me want to say "He knew of him, but he was a couple of years of ahead of him in school so they weren't good friends."
<snerk> Good one! I gotta remember that.

Maybe a good response would have been
"You mean in the Biblical sense?"
HEE! Love it! Snarkiness and smartassery all rolled up in one!

[Mangetout]

Since there was nothing she could do if he didn't "know the Lord" in her terms, then why ask?Course there's something she could do if you answer 'no' - she can grab your lapels and say "And what about you? - you don't want to burn eternally do you?".

Yes, of course it would be incredibly insensitive to do that...

[PinkMarabou]

My sincerest condolences MentalGuy. Vent here all you need to.

{{{{{hugs}}}}}


When my father passed away, I was 11. People say some of the most whiplash-inducing things to you during those times. I was approached by the minister who performed the graveside service after we buried him. Like any NORMAL child who just lost her father, I was standing there in the pouring rain having a good cry when he came up to me and gave his condolences then proceeded to make an assumption on my mental state. He said "I know you're hurting right now, but don't do anything stupid, your mom can't handle it."

What the fuck????

Look, I loved my father as much as a prepubescent girl could (yes, we had our problems), but I don't think I'm the one you should be telling that to. My mother just lost her HUSBAND to cancer that was diagnosed little over a year ago and I'm the one you should be looking out for? She got thrust into widowhood and a single parent raising two teenage daughters. I would feel sorry for anyone who was a single parent raising daughters.

Some people truly have no class and respect for a grieving family.

[MentalGuy]

Thanks for your understanding. And I'm thankful that this message board is here to complain about things like this. I'm sure almost anyone I know would have thought I was an asshole for complaining about something like this.

I find it constantly amazing that Christians in this country are complaining that they are the ones being persecuted for their beliefs.

[Eve]

Sorry about your Dad—mine died ten years ago this year, and even though I didn't like mine, it's still quite a jolt.

When my grandmother died, someone patted my mother on the shoulder and said, "She's not dead—she's merely sleeping," and my mother had the wherewithall to say, "Jesus—we buried her!!"

[Little Bird]

My favorite response to the "Found Jesus" question:

"Holy Hell! Have you people lost him again?!?"

:D

But on a more serious note—my condolences on your father's death. People who speak like that at times like those should not be licensed to speak.

[The King of Soup]

I am sorry for your loss. I hope that you may be consoled by your memories of him, and by those who loved you both.

That said, in a condolence line, the answer to anyone should always, in my opinion, be "Yes, thank you.". I mean, you have to take into account the fact that people who come to a religious funeral service, presumably because they've been invited, might be religious.

For pity's sake, is your farther's funeral the last chance to honor him, a consolation for your mother, a party for the neighbors, or a chance to sneer at his friends? Take your choice, but keep in mind the fact that honoring your father can mean different things to different people.

Your joke is funny. It is up to you whether the humor is worth the obvious cost to your family.

[Kalhoun]

My mom died almost seven years ago. She had a couple of overzealous friends that she wanted kept in the dark about her illness until it was all over. Then they started in on my dad with the "She's with god" and blah, blah, blah. He simply said, "Barb was secular."

[audreyayn]

Have you found Jesus? Not yet, but he'll turn up when he's hungry.

She probably didn't realize just how rude she was being. Not that that excuses it, but ignorance is better than malce--I think?

[Ferret Herder]

That said, in a condolence line, the answer to anyone should always, in my opinion, be "Yes, thank you.". I mean, you have to take into account the fact that people who come to a religious funeral service, presumably because they've been invited, might be religious.

For pity's sake, is your farther's funeral the last chance to honor him, a consolation for your mother, a party for the neighbors, or a chance to sneer at his friends? Take your choice, but keep in mind the fact that honoring your father can mean different things to different people.
Except that in the case of the OP, it wasn't at his father's funeral by anyone invited there. It was his coworkers, said to him at his workplace, who presumably never even met his father.

[JRDelirious]

When my grandmother died, someone patted my mother on the shoulder and said, "She's not dead—she's merely sleeping," and my mother had the wherewithall to say, "Jesus—we buried her!!" So that's where you get that rockin' wit.

[MentalGuy]

I am sorry for your loss. I hope that you may be consoled by your memories of him, and by those who loved you both.

That said, in a condolence line, the answer to anyone should always, in my opinion, be "Yes, thank you.". I mean, you have to take into account the fact that people who come to a religious funeral service, presumably because they've been invited, might be religious.

For pity's sake, is your farther's funeral the last chance to honor him, a consolation for your mother, a party for the neighbors, or a chance to sneer at his friends? Take your choice, but keep in mind the fact that honoring your father can mean different things to different people.

Your joke is funny. It is up to you whether the humor is worth the obvious cost to your family.
King of Soup:

This was not at the funeral. This was after I had returned to work and the question was from a coworker. I think that in that situation they should take into account that the person they are talking to may not be religious. But what possible good could a question like that do anyway? It is too late to do anything about it. Also, what if the situation was reversed and I was a believer but my father was not? That question would be one of the most uncomforting things that could be said.

Also, I didn't actually tell that joke, so I fail to see how my family could pay a price for it.

[Clothahump]

Also the way she said it made me want to say "He knew of him, but he was a couple of years of ahead of him in school so they weren't good friends."

SPLORT!!!!

Thanks, MentalGuy. Now I have to wipe Diet Coke off my keyboard. Incidentally, I'm borrowing that line to use on the fundy that asks me if I know the Lord every couple of months. :D

[Wile E]

My condolences as well. My father passed away 3 years ago, fortunately I did not have to deal with any of those comments. If I had been asked "Did he know the Lord?" I think I may have been tempted to respond, "I think they were only just recently introduced."

[cosmosdan]

That said, in a condolence line, the answer to anyone should always, in my opinion, be "Yes, thank you.". I mean, you have to take into account the fact that people who come to a religious funeral service, presumably because they've been invited, might be religious.
For pity's sake, is your farther's funeral the last chance to honor him, a consolation for your mother, a party for the neighbors, or a chance to sneer at his friends? Take your choice, but keep in mind the fact that honoring your father can mean different things to different people.
Your joke is funny. It is up to you whether the humor is worth the obvious cost to your family.

I see you've already been corrected a couple of times already on the location of the comment. For myself, even if it was at the funeral the comment was totally inappropriate. Being religous is not an excuse for thoughtless behavior. Expressing your religous beliefs doesn't give anyone an excuse or right to be inconsiderte or just dowright stupid.
I respect people's rights to believe what they choose but when their beliefs spill over into the lives of others {especially some of the ridiculous comments told about here} then they'd better be ready to deal with the consequences.
Sayiing "Yes thank you" to someone for a thoughtless intrusion into your time of mourning does NOT seem like a polite option. People who are inconsiderate have surrendered their right to consideration. That doesn't require being rude and inconsiderate in retaliation. I prefer some blunt honesty. such as asking "are you aware how incredibly inappropriate and inconsiderate that comment is?"

[Siege]

King of Soup, I'm a devout Episcopalian; my father's an agnostic curmudgeon who's just turned 76. He's not converting to Christianity. If someone asked me if he knew the Lord either at the funeral home or at work, I'd be stunned that someone would ask such an inappropriate question. Presumably, if someone asks the question, they don't know if he was Christian or not. If he is Christian, then all is well. If he wasn't and they believe all non-Christians are going to hell, then all that can result is more pain for someone who's already grieving.

As I said earlier, I understand the need for comfort, although how someone who never knew my father would need comfort after his death is beyond me. What I don't understand is how a person could ask a question with the potential to inflict more grief. What would they say if the answer were, "No."?

I love my father dearly; he's in excellent health, and I hope he continues kicking around for a long time to come. I also hope that, when the time comes, no one asks if the man who used to tell me, "If God can't tell the difference between a man who goes to church every Sunday and does terrible things the rest of the week and a man who does good things every day of the week, he ain't worth worshipping!" knew the Lord. I'll be polite; that's another thing Dad taught me. I'll also be appalled by the person's rudeness and lack of consideration

Now do you get it?
CJ

[eleanorigby]

For pity's sake, is your farther's funeral the last chance to honor him, a consolation for your mother, a party for the neighbors, or a chance to sneer at his friends? Take your choice, but keep in mind the fact that honoring your father can mean different things to different people.

Your joke is funny. It is up to you whether the humor is worth the obvious cost to your family.

Forgive the pile on, but honestly! EVEN if this remark had been made at the funeral, it was still grossly inappropriate.

As a fellow mourner (not related) your job at the funeral is to show respect for the deceased, and support to the grieving. It is not ever to shove any agenda in anyone's face, period.

If his Dad didn't know the Lord (what a phrase! what a judgemental and isolating thing to say)-what are they to do about it now? His knowledge of the Lord is now moot-or maybe closer than the nimrod who said those words could ever dream of.

What "cost" to his family? Are you thinking of a loss of face or a demonstation of some weakness in character by giving this woman a well deserved set down?
If anything, the OP was the more polite and mannerly of the two. He showed grace under pressure and provocation-and he let her keep her delusion by affirming her ridiculous premise. Where is her character? Where are her Christian values? All I see is arrogance and superiority and judgement out of her mouth. Bah!


I have been thru too many funerals--I have no patience with those who claim Christian values and yet practice none. This woman needs to be shocked out of her behavior--snarky and smart ass is a good start.

Personally, I would have been tempted to overdose her with sarcasm.
"Did he know the Lord? OMG-NO!- he didn't! What's gonna happen to him now? My poor Dad will burn eternally? " and burst into hysterical tears. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Maybe the next time, she won't jump to make an ass out of herself.

[Kimstu]

Personally, I prefer the lame throwaway lines that brush off the inappropriate question rather than making it a big deal:

"No, but he knew the muffin man."

"Well, if you hummed a few bars he could fake a little of it."

"Must have, Dad knew everyone."

The "Not really, he was a few years ahead of him in school" crack works too. :)

[Maus Magill]

I love my father dearly; he's in excellent health, and I hope he continues kicking around for a long time to come. I also hope that, when the time comes, no one asks if the man who used to tell me, "If God can't tell the difference between a man who goes to church every Sunday and does terrible things the rest of the week and a man who does good things every day of the week, he ain't worth worshipping!" knew the Lord. I'll be polite; that's another thing Dad taught me. I'll also be appalled by the person's rudeness and lack of consideration

If it weren't for the difference of 12 years between them, I'd swear we had the same father.

Every time I try to put myself in your shoes, MentalGuy, I get incredibly pissed. While I would want to tell the busybody to not-so-kindly fuck-off, I was raised better than that.

My condolences.

[susan_foster]

I'm sorry for your loss MentalGuy . I hope there are many people who are supporting you right now.

I tend to think of people who ask these kinds of questions as people who believe they are actively recruiting for God. It can be annoying, and inappropriate - it seems that a lot of time they are doing it more for their own self-worth than anything else. I am a Christian - a quiet Christian (too quiet at times). I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on others - if you ask me, I will share.

And my snarky answer to the Have You Found the Lord question - "Well, we've chipped him, so we expect someone will call soon. He always manages to slip his leash."

Susan

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

In my skepto-masochistic amblings, I've run across a certain loony segment of Christians who hardly think of anything but how to manipulate people into "getting saved." I've seen accounts of missionary dating. I've seen websites noting certain events or conversations as good opportunities to initiate a talk about salvation.

I suspect this person was of that ilk. Presumably her intent was to secure your salvation by either appealing to your desire to be with your father (if he was saved), or by playing on your fear and despair (if he was not), by pointing out that he is in hell, and don't you want to avoid that fate? I find it horrific, but it seems some people really think this way, and actually think they are doing good.

Come to think of it, these are probably the folks who think homosexuals are constantly recruiting people - it's all just a massive case of projection.

[Slacker]

Any Chrsitian Dopers have an opinion?
An opinion? I've got a million of 'em! :D

First though, sorry to hear about your loss, MentalGuy.

I'm a youth leader/sunday school teacher for high schoolers at a Lutheran church here in Dallas. Coincidentally, we had a discussion over how to react to bad news from friends just last week. I gave them several hypothetical scenarios where a friend delivered some bad news of various intensity, from failing a test to a death in the family. I also gave them choices of how to respond, and asked them to come up with their own responses if none I had typed up were appropriate.

The responses I provided were various responses people usually give in these situations, from empathy (if you need to talk to someone) to distraction (hey let's go to the mall to take your mind off it) to religious (mentioning God's plan).

My students almost unanimously agreed that the religious response was the most appropriate, but only with their Christian friends. They agree that with non-believers or unknowns, the "God's plan" response is just going to piss people off and strain whatever relationship existed to begin with.

Personally, I'd never ask someone if their deceased relative knew God. I'm leery to start off with the religious response even with people I know are strong Christians, for the same reason MentalGuy found it to be an odd question - what am I going to say if the person wasn't? While it'll most likely anger/annoy a non-believer, it'll just depress the faithful person if the answer is negative.

[Liberal]

I lost my father at a very young age, Mental Guy. We both were young — he was forty-two and I was eleven. My heart goes out to you for your loss.

[eleanorigby]

My apologies,mental guy-upon rereading, I found I did not express my condolences.

I am sorry for you loss.

[PinkMarabou]

I lost my father at a very young age, Mental Guy. We both were young — he was forty-two and I was eleven. My heart goes out to you for your loss.


Ooh, spooky. My father died when I was 11, he had just turned 43 two weeks before.

[SolGrundy]

First, MentalGuy, my sincere condolences.

This was not at the funeral. This was after I had returned to work and the question was from a coworker. I think that in that situation they should take into account that the person they are talking to may not be religious. But what possible good could a question like that do anyway? It is too late to do anything about it. Also, what if the situation was reversed and I was a believer but my father was not? That question would be one of the most uncomforting things that could be said.
Just based on your description of the situation in the OP, I interpreted it as a case where your co-worker was trying to do exactly that -- it was a parity check. She was acknowledging the possibility that your father didn't share her religious beliefs, and the next comment would've been appropriate to that. If you'd answered yes, then she'd have offered a comment about your father's being at peace with God. If you'd answered no, then she'd have simply offered her condolences.

Not knowing your co-worker, I have absolutely no idea of her true intentions. But I would've made the assumption that she was trying to comfort me in some appropriate way. I wouldn't have immediately assumed that she was trying to "witness," and responded with anger or mocking, as others in this thread have suggested.

[cosmosdan]

First, MentalGuy, my sincere condolences.
Not knowing your co-worker, I have absolutely no idea of her true intentions. But I would've made the assumption that she was trying to comfort me in some appropriate way. I wouldn't have immediately assumed that she was trying to "witness," and responded with anger or mocking, as others in this thread have suggested.

She may not have been intending to witness, but I have no idea how you could possibly interpert her question as an appropriate attempt to comfort anyone.
If an atheist , not knowing your beliefs in any way, commented "Well I hope he wasn't burdened with any of that Heaven and Hell baloney?" it would be just as tacky.

If you assume she wasn't being malicious then you're probably right but thats not an excuse. It was still thoughtless {she didn't consider that her question might hurt} and inappropriate {inserting her personnel beliefs into someone elses time of mourning}

[ShibbOleth]

Sorry for your loss.

If somebody asks me this, it will mean they didn't know my father. So the only appropriate response would be to turn to them, wild-eyed, and shout, "Holy shit, I knew there was something we'd forgotten over these past weeks. Now he's damned forever and it's all my fault for not paying attention to the to-do list! What can I do? What can I do?" as I fall into a sobbing heap upon the floor.

[Siege]

Just based on your description of the situation in the OP, I interpreted it as a case where your co-worker was trying to do exactly that -- it was a parity check. She was acknowledging the possibility that your father didn't share her religious beliefs, and the next comment would've been appropriate to that. If you'd answered yes, then she'd have offered a comment about your father's being at peace with God. If you'd answered no, then she'd have simply offered her condolences.

But, if that's the case, why couldn't she just have offered her condolences without asking if his father knew the Lord? Also, whether his father knew the Lord makes no difference to what MentalGuy would find find comforting. If the father of a strong Atheist dies, I doubt a comment about how his father is with God was comforting and it could be annoying, no matter how devout a Christian his father would have been. By the same token, if a Wiccan were to die, I'd hardly expect to comfort a Christian by telling her I'm sure he's "in the Summerlands."

One thing to keep in mind is I grew up in and live in the Northeast and spent several years in Hawaii. This sort of question and/or witnessing isn't common in either place, at least in my experience, which is one reason it would be such a suprising question. Again, I assume the woman in the OP's intentions were good, but I'd find it a decidedly awkward question.

CJ

[MentalGuy]

I just wanted to say I think the woman was doing it with what she considered the best of intentions. She was not trying to be an asshole. I don't know how she would have actually responded if I had said no. I just think that is a really stupid question to ask someone in that situation, especially if you do not already know the answer. I am not the sort, though to reply snarkily to something of that nature even if I do think it.

The comment about being a few years ahead in school was more in reaction to the tone of the question than the content. "Did he know Earl Smith?" except Earl was replaced with "The Lord."

[SolGrundy]

One thing to keep in mind is I grew up in and live in the Northeast and spent several years in Hawaii. This sort of question and/or witnessing isn't common in either place, at least in my experience, which is one reason it would be such a suprising question. Again, I assume the woman in the OP's intentions were good, but I'd find it a decidedly awkward question.
Well, I grew up in the suburbs in Georgia, where the religion was a lot more homogonized and people rarely encountered those of different faiths. Not so rural as to get much of the Fire and Brimstone types, but not so urban so that people are familiar with religions other than their own apart from the knowledge that they exist. And in that environment, "Do you know the Lord?" is no more loaded a question than "Are you a Christian?" It doesn't automatically imply a value judgement, but gives the opportunity for the asker to offer more eloquent condolences if you happen to share the same religion. If someone answers no, you can just say, "My condolences."

Look, the last thing I want to do is turn MentalGuy's situation into an argument, or stamp all over his grief, or ruin his chance to vent. So I don't want to belabor the point. I just wanted to throw the idea out there that there's a chance it wasn't an attack, or persecution, or judgement of any kind, but simply a sincere and genuine attempt to offer comfort.

[Siege]

Actually, my current city's fairly religiously homogenous; it's just that the form the religious homogenity takes is Catholicism! That's why, while my turning up with ashes on my forehead in February or March isn't all that surprising (Episcopalians also celebrate Ash Wednesday), the fact that I eat meat on Fridays in Lent is! :)

Hawaii, of course, is marvelously diverse.
CJ

[cosmosdan]

Well, I grew up in the suburbs in Georgia, where the religion was a lot more homogonized and people rarely encountered those of different faiths. Not so rural as to get much of the Fire and Brimstone types, but not so urban so that people are familiar with religions other than their own apart from the knowledge that they exist. And in that environment, "Do you know the Lord?" is no more loaded a question than "Are you a Christian?" It doesn't automatically imply a value judgement, but gives the opportunity for the asker to offer more eloquent condolences if you happen to share the same religion. If someone answers no, you can just say, "My condolences."

Look, the last thing I want to do is turn MentalGuy's situation into an argument, or stamp all over his grief, or ruin his chance to vent. So I don't want to belabor the point. I just wanted to throw the idea out there that there's a chance it wasn't an attack, or persecution, or judgement of any kind, but simply a sincere and genuine attempt to offer comfort.

I see your point. If people spend most of their time around around like minded individuals then a question like that might slip out. Still, given the circumstances it was a poor choice. I don't mean the discription of thoughtless and inappropriate to be a blazing condemnation of her as a person. We all might be guilty of those things under certain circumstances. I do think that discription is accurate. I think if people {myself included} are told when we say something that is inappropriate we might learn something about others views and respect.

[The Asbestos Mango]

If you assume she wasn't being malicious then you're probably right but thats not an excuse. It was still thoughtless {she didn't consider that her question might hurt} and inappropriate {inserting her personnel beliefs into someone elses time of mourning}

I had no idea that Human Resources was a religion. Makes me wonder if The Lord in question is, perhaps, Catbert?

[cosmosdan]

I had no idea that Human Resources was a religion. Makes me wonder if The Lord in question is, perhaps, Catbert?

I don't get this one? Did you read and understand the opening post, or is thsi just comedy I don't understand?

[Dangerosa]

Sorry for your loss.

I agree the comment was probably just not thought through and not malicious. Somewhere there should be a list of comments that are often said in situtations that AREN'T appropriate - particularly the hard ones - death, divorce.

"I think he found him before he died, but he forgot to tell us where, so now we've misplaced him again!"

[Siege]

I think he was playing on your typo "personnel" for "personal". ;)

CJ

[Jack Batty]

...I used to hear "this is all part of God's plan...", as if somehow the fact that all the horrible things happening to me were on some old bearded guy's list was supposed to me make me feel better.

That's a peeve of mine too. About ten years ago someone close to me died and all I heard from her very religious family was, "God doesn't give us more than we could handle."

It seems the deceased got a little bit of an overload, huh? Just who is "God" looking out for anyway? It's all a part of his plan? For whom? If Michelle dying was all apart of his plan, how do I know it's a plan for me? Maybe I'm next on his list and his big plan is actually for Bubba McFarmer in Pigsknuckle Iowa.

Arg.

[The Asbestos Mango]

I actually tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to "comforting" the bereaved. Any of the supposedly comforting things to say at or just after a funeral always come off sounding trite, not thought through, and definitely of no comfort to the bereaved. I usually check in with a periodic, "How are you doing? You holding up OK?"

No, that's not comforting either, but I figure if I can't think of anything comforting to say, at least asking after the well-being of someone who has lost someone near and dear to them won't offend their religious (or non-religious) sensibilities.

And my shoulder is handy if they need a good hug and cry.

[Baker]

MentalGuy, my condolences on the loss of your father.

I hope you don't take it amiss if I bookmark this thread, so that I can copy down the snarky responses to the rude question. I'm Christian, but I would have no hesitation about using any of them.

[The King of Soup]

MentalGuy, I apologize. No offense intended, I mean it. I didn't mean to imply that you can't reasonably take offense at those kind of comments, only that you don't have to. So much of this thread is extrapolation and extension of the original thing said, "Did he know the lord?", to unpleasant extremes (nobody said or even implied that your father was in any way lacking, that his faith was inadequate, that he did not deserve a place in Heaven, that you smell bad, etc.) that a lot of vitriol is being directed not at what your co-worker said, but at what she might have meant by it, which just seems unnecessary. And I know you didn't respond the way you suggested, I'm just kind of glad you didn't.

BUT. Having extended the benefit of the doubt to your co-worker, I admit that I can't get off the hook so easily. In your bereavement, I could have offered my condolences and stopped, but I didn't. That was rude, and I hope you'll realize that my intent was to help you let go of an unnecessary grievance, and forgive me. I am sorry.