Republicans pushing a mandatory stealth National ID card?

[rjung]

Are Congressional Republicans (with the support of the White House) trying to covertly foster a national ID on the nation?

From the Naples Daily News (http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/perspective/article/0,2071,NPDN_14966_3749603,00.html) (subscription required):
States' rights have taken a beating since 9/11 from the conservative wing of the Republican Party, once one of their greatest defenders. The latest state prerogative to take a hit is the right to set standards for getting a driver's license.

Pushed by House GOP conservatives, Congress is about to enact federally mandated standards for issuing driver's licenses, including a requirement that persons seeking a new license or renewing an old one produce a birth certificate, photo ID, proof of a valid Social Security number and a document with full name and address.

...The backers say that these new requirements do not get state motor vehicle clerks into the business of checking citizenship and immigration status, but in a backdoor way it kind of does.

Legal visitors to the country could get a license, but it would expire when their visas do. States could still provide licenses to illegal aliens — 11 states currently do — but the licenses have to be of a different design and specify that they are not valid ID for boarding aircraft.
For the record, the bill is HR 418, the "Real ID" act, and it was first introduced by Congressman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) in February. I get a feeling Mr. Sensenbrenner want as few folks to know about the bill as possible; as the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/voices/editorials/erealid4e_20050504.htm) notes:
The Real ID Act passed the House in February, tacked on to the must-pass supplemental bill for Iraq. That means no committee hearings were held regarding the measure. There was no debate. But there are measures within the act that raise immigration and privacy alarms. If it passes, millions of undocumented aliens will be prohibited from getting a driver's license, and clerks at license bureaus in all 50 states will, in effect, be turned into immigration enforcement officials.
And if you thought identity theft was bad now, you ain't seen nothing yet:
The act creates a massive database -- all passports and visas must be scanned. And all state driver and motor vehicle databases will be required to link and share information.
Full text of the act can be found here (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:h418rfs.txt.pdf) (PDF).

Supporters say the bill is strictly voluntary, but the fine print disagrees:
SEC.202. (a) (1)

Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.
So what happens if the FAA decides to actually enforce this clause? Will we be required to have one of these shiny new cross-linked uber-database ID cards in order to fly?

Now, I'm not a deep-pocket lawyer armed with a truckload of ten-dollar-words, but doesn't this effectively turn every DMV across the nation into immigration checkpoints?

And given how much gravity the idea of a national ID card carries, why the !#$@%! is it buried inside an Iraq appropriations bill? What are the backers trying to hide?

[kniz]

If it passes, millions of undocumented aliens will be prohibited from getting a driver's license
How unreasonable can you get? :rolleyes:

[ExTank]

Look at the bright side: some smart Democrat can tack a National Firearm Owners ID requirement onto the law in subsequent assemblies and backdoor National Firearms Licenses.

Ya Loses Some, Ya Wins Some Back Later.

Hey, it's better odds than Vegas would give ya.

[Alessan]

I've never understood the American opposition to ID cards.

Is it because of the threat of government opression? Because if your government wants to start opressing you it'll do it, card or no card.

[Chronos]

Pushed by House GOP conservatives, Congress is about to enact federally mandated standards for issuing driver's licenses, including a requirement that persons seeking a new license or renewing an old one produce a birth certificate, photo ID, proof of a valid Social Security number and a document with full name and address.Wait, so you'd need a photo ID to get a driver's license? Just what photo ID is this supposed to be?

[Harborwolf]

God bless those small government republicans. The DMV will finally be a place that I can look forward to going to.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Does this measure also cover ID cards? What about those people who can't drive due to a seizure disorder or blindness, but who have ID cards for purposes of proving who they are? Here in Kansas at least, the DMV issues ID cards too.

[Nocturne]

Does this measure also cover ID cards? What about those people who can't drive due to a seizure disorder or blindness, but who have ID cards for purposes of proving who they are? Here in Kansas at least, the DMV issues ID cards too.

AFAIK, every state DMV provides ID cards.

[Reeder]

How unreasonable can you get? :rolleyes:

Do you think this will stop them from driving?

What you will get is many more driving without a license or insurance.

[Ravenman]

Keep in mind that this is another one of those genius recommendations from the 9-11 Commission, which was to harmonize state drivers licenses. It reminds me of how John Kerry immediately said that he'd endorse every single recommendation of this commission before anyone could have possibly read the entire report.

I hear that there is some dispute over whether the requirements placed on states is constitutional. I'm sure this will end up in court anyways.

[manhattan]

And given how much gravity the idea of a national ID card carries, why the !#$@%! is it buried inside an Iraq appropriations bill? What are the backers trying to hide?Shhh! We're trying to hide it from the fundies, who would go apeshit over that "Mark of the Beast" stuff. ;)

Seriously, I dunno. But that's how it's been done previously. Last time similar requirements became federal law in 1996, the provisions were in that year's Omnibus Appropriations law (cite (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=104_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ208.104)). I guess someone got pissed off enough about it to kick up a storm, because the provisions related to driver's licenses and other current IDs got repealed in 1999, also in an appropriations bill, this time for DOT (cite (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=106_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ069.106) ). Interestingly (or not), the requirements for birth certificates remained and are law to this day, (like so (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=Federal%20agency%20may%20not%20accept%20for%20&url=/uscode/html/uscode05/usc_sec_05_00000301----000-notes.html)).

As to politics and partisanship, one of the leading advocates of standardizing state IDs so as to approximate a national ID is noted non-conservative Diane Feinstein. She was also a leader of the movement to introduce biometric passports. On the other side, one won't be surprised to learn that some of the most conservative members of congress have been among the most vocal opponents. It's a pet peeve of former Congressman Dick Armey and was before he left Congress and became a full-time civil libertarian, for example. So it's not really an issue that can be safely put into one of the traditional liberal/conservative boxes.

Personally, I fail to see a real objection to it. We've got IDs now. Why not make them accurate and standardized ones? And why not use them? It makes no sense to me that I have to produce a government-produced ID to cash a check for $10 at the grocery store but some idiot claiming to be me can waltz right into a polling place and exercise the most important tool we have in a democracy on my behalf with no ID at all.

[rjung]

Keep in mind that this is another one of those genius recommendations from the 9-11 Commission, which was to harmonize state drivers licenses.
I'm not convinced that this act (again, buried in an Iraq appropriations bill) is the same as "harmonizing" state drivers' licenses. The latter, to me, sounds like a gradual migration of DL standards for all states for consistency, while this seems like a "Thou shalt do this now" imposition from above.

As to politics and partisanship, one of the leading advocates of standardizing state IDs so as to approximate a national ID is noted non-conservative Diane Feinstein. She was also a leader of the movement to introduce biometric passports. On the other side, one won't be surprised to learn that some of the most conservative members of congress have been among the most vocal opponents. It's a pet peeve of former Congressman Dick Armey and was before he left Congress and became a full-time civil libertarian, for example. So it's not really an issue that can be safely put into one of the traditional liberal/conservative boxes.
I agree to some extent; we've had discussions back-and-forth on national ID cards on the SDMB before, even if I am too lazy to actually find one. ;)

But the thing that really gives me the skivvies about this "Real ID" thing is the covert attempt to get it passed. For something as controversial and polarizing as a national ID card, shouldn't it be dragged into the sunlight and discussed out in the open for everyone to participate in, instead of being snuck through the back door at 3:00am or whatever? It's like the PATRIOT ACT all over again.

Personally, I fail to see a real objection to it. We've got IDs now. Why not make them accurate and standardized ones?
Standardized IDs is one thing; an identifying badge of citizenship status is another (and with centralized national database to boot). If I buy an airplane ticket to fly to St. Louis, I don't see why it's any business of the ticket agent what my immigration/citizenship status is. It's certainly not as if US citizens are automatically exempt from committing terrorism, as Timothy McVeigh demonstrated.

And the potential for racial profiling abuse that a national citizenship ID card brings to the table skeeves me out some more. How slippery does the slope have to be before a security guard decides to do an ID check on all foreign-looking (read: non-white) visitors to the Washington Monument? Or just imagine what these guys (http://www.nationalledger.com/scribe/archives/2005/05/minutemen_proje.shtml) would do to local Hispanics if everyone was required to carry proof of citizenship at all times...

[John Mace]

What's wrong, rjung? Are you afraid that parking ticket you got in Nevada last year will be cross-referenced against your CA driver's license? :)

I have mixed feelings about this. It's unclear where the constitutional authority comes from to do this (I'll let one of our lawyers weigh in on that topic first), but the fact is some states are bending over backwards to allow people who are in the country illegally to get DLs. I don't by the slipper slope argument (it is, after all, a logical fallacy) or the racism argument. Is there a provision in the bill requiring anyone to carry his or her DL at all times? If and when that comes up, I'll protest.

You ARE required to show positive ID on boarding a plane. That's a seperate issue from this.

[Ravenman]

I'm not convinced that this act (again, buried in an Iraq appropriations bill) is the same as "harmonizing" state drivers' licenses. The latter, to me, sounds like a gradual migration of DL standards for all states for consistency, while this seems like a "Thou shalt do this now" imposition from above.Well, some of the key driver's license provisions state:

(1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this division, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.....

(a) In General- To be eligible to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance made available under this title, a State shall participate in the interstate compact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as the `Driver License Agreement', in order to provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.....

(a) In General- The Secretary may make grants to a State to assist the State in conforming to the minimum standards set forth in this title....

Honestly, I can't make any sort of distinction between the Feds telling states to harmonize their licenses and the Feds telling states to "do it NOW," as you state, I fail to see that there's any meaningful difference between the two, except the latter statement makes the law sound bad, and the former makes it sounds good.

[DanBlather]

I'm a liberal, but I see nothing wrong with a national ID card. In fact, I think it might make things easier for legal immigrants. It'd be much better if everyone could just flash an ID card that showed you were legal rather than racially profiling a semgment of the population and hassling them. This is what happens now near the border.

BUT, lets put some real restrictions on the card. Only basic info should be printed: DOB, picture, height, weight. Other info should either be encoded on the chip or available across the net to authorized people. The info should be compartmentalized; i.e., police officers should be able to access driving license and criminal record info, immigration officers should get access to immigration/citizenship stats, banks should get access to some unique identifier, employers should be able to determine if you are a legal worker, etc.

[PatriotX]

There's no such thing as a safe computer database. All you can do is make it more risky and difficult to get into than the benefit from doing so.
A db with everyone's everything in it is just asking for trouble and saying please.

[ITR champion]

I'm all in favor of moving towards a national ID card. Let's face the facts. The current system that we use is insane. There are literally hundreds of different forms of ID that could be accepted when you're getting a job, getting your boarding pass at the airport, or whenever else you'll need an ID. This makes it virtually impossible for any person to be enough of an expert to distinguish between real and fake IDs in all cases, much less for millions of employers and thousands of airline employees to do so. Standardizing is simply logical.

[BobLibDem]

I doubt the efficiency of the ID in the War on Terror (TM). All it will do is force terrorists to either use counterfeit IDs or use terrorists who happen to be US citizens.

I don't have a problem in principle with the notion, but this is an unfunded mandate and the states should fight it. If it's such a great idea, then let the feds come up with the system and the means to implement it.

[Ravenman]

All it will do is force terrorists to either use counterfeit IDs or use terrorists who happen to be US citizens. Well, yeah. As opposed to the current system in which terrorists can get real IDs, even if they are foreigners.

[rjung]

Despite the claims, I see this as having very little to do with terrorism and security, and lots to do with illegal immigration, the further erosion of civil liberties, and harassment of minorities.

BUT, lets put some real restrictions on the card. Only basic info should be printed: DOB, picture, height, weight. Other info should either be encoded on the chip or available across the net to authorized people. The info should be compartmentalized; i.e., police officers should be able to access driving license and criminal record info, immigration officers should get access to immigration/citizenship stats, banks should get access to some unique identifier, employers should be able to determine if you are a legal worker, etc.
Sounds nice, but I don't see anything like that in the act.

Not as a ding on DanBlather, but I think it's important to keep two topics in this thread distinct: is the concept of a national ID card good or bad, and is the "Real ID" implementation of this concept good or bad? There's no point in saying "I think a National ID would be acceptable with these provisions" if the legislation that gets passed doesn't have them...

[John Mace]

I dunno. Americans, as a whole, have a strong distate for a "national ID card". Maybe it's that frontier mentality that we hang onto. And yet, many European countries have national ID cards, and seem to do so w/o suppressing civil liberties. Let's hear from some our European friends on this board, and hear how things work for them-- the good and bad.

I have no problem with the part of this that is a crackdown on people who are in this country illegally. Can't get a driver's license? Well, how about going back to the country where you are citizen and getting one there???

Think of it this way-- suppose we were to institute a national healthcare system, which so many on this board espouse. Wouldn't there HAVE to be an naional ID to go along with it?

[alphaboi867]

...I hear that there is some dispute over whether the requirements placed on states is constitutional. I'm sure this will end up in court anyways.

Congress can always make compliance a condition of recieving federal highway funds. It worked for the drinking age. And North Dakota lost when they sued the USDoT over it.

[DanBlather]

Not as a ding on DanBlather, but I think it's important to keep two topics in this thread distinct: is the concept of a national ID card good or bad, and is the "Real ID" implementation of this concept good or bad? There's no point in saying "I think a National ID would be acceptable with these provisions" if the legislation that gets passed doesn't have them... No ding taken. The more I look at the actual bill passed, the worse it looks. I support a well implemented national ID card of some sort, however.

[cmkeller]

rjung:

Despite the claims, I see this as having very little to do with terrorism and security, and lots to do with illegal immigration

Why separate the two? Technically, most of the 9/11 hijackers were illegally present in this country, and if the INS had been on the ball, the tragedy could have possibly been prevented. Granted, "illegal immigration" means, to most people, "people illegally here because they want to live here for a long time" rather than "people illegally here because they want to learn to fly planes into skyscrapers", but if giving the INS better tools will result in better safety, it adds up to the same thing.

[Cervaise]

Actually, when I first heard about this, the thing that leaped out at me was the completely unreasonable burden being placed on state agencies, in that they would be responsible not just for accepting all the forms of ID required to secure a driver's license but reviewing and verifying them as well. The cost to these agencies, and the amount of staffing required to meet this obligation, will be enormous. There's a risk of crippling state governments who will be forced to shunt serious resources to their motor-vehicle bureaus to chase down and certify all the documentation provided by their applicants; and, of course, as is standard procedure for this kind of thing, the federal legislation provides no funding or other support mechanism to help the states carry the load.

I suspect that as much as the illegal immigration and police-state objectives being served, you've also got the Grover Nordquist types who welcome the opportunity to throw a huge monkey wrench into the budgets of the states.

[flickster]

Actually, when I first heard about this, the thing that leaped out at me was the completely unreasonable burden being placed on state agencies, in that they would be responsible not just for accepting all the forms of ID required to secure a driver's license but reviewing and verifying them as well. The cost to these agencies, and the amount of staffing required to meet this obligation, will be enormous. There's a risk of crippling state governments who will be forced to shunt serious resources to their motor-vehicle bureaus to chase down and certify all the documentation provided by their applicants; and, of course, as is standard procedure for this kind of thing, the federal legislation provides no funding or other support mechanism to help the states carry the load.

I suspect that as much as the illegal immigration and police-state objectives being served, you've also got the Grover Nordquist types who welcome the opportunity to throw a huge monkey wrench into the budgets of the states.
As an employer we have to pay to verify ID, SS#, Education, DMV Record, Criminal Background. So as far as I'm concerned - Yes I want them verifying identification prior to issuing yet another ID / drivers license.

[Spavined Gelding]

Let us consider for just a moment just what this new statute means in a State like Iowa.

Within the last few years the state legislature, in its general lust for reducing state expenditures and shifting the burden onto the counties, abolished the Department of Transportation’s drivers license office and the traveling teams that staffed them and shifted the burden over to the county treasurers. That means that if you want to get a drivers license or renew a drivers license in Iowa you go to the county treasurer’s office in the county court house or maybe in a city hall if the treasurer wants to set up full or part time satellite offices. One of the things you have to do to get or renew a license is to show proof of automobile liability insurance. You don’t have to have insurance to lawfully drive, only to have insurance on the day you apply for the license. There is a significant difference.

At the same time the meat packing industry has attracted large numbers of immigrant, mostly Mexican and Central American, labor to the area. Iowa has vastly more pigs that it has people. It also has industrial chicken houses and 500 to 1000 cow dairy farms. Cheap immigrant labor is in demand and illegal immigrants provide it. Some of those immigrant laborers are papered, they are legal aliens, but a fair number are not. One may guess that all the people who have the same social security number probably do not have a valid Green Card.

Some might think that undocumented Mexican and Central American packing house workers pose a threat to the national security but I doubt it. The same may be said for the Russian and Ukranian workers in the Kosher packing house in the next county. For the most part they are family people living by the extended family in relative squalor in rented houses and hired hand bunk houses.

The INS in the central Midwest is terribly under strength.

So, here is the situation: If an undocumented alien wants to get a drivers license he and his two brothers and three of four cousins who all own a rattle trap car together diddly-bop up to the courthouse and ask to take the drivers license test, driving and written – I think there is a Spanish language test, don’t know about one in Russian of Ukranian or Yiddish. The middle age lady designated by the treasurer as the drivers license examiner tears her self away from her usual job of recording the payment of real estate taxes, or boat licenses or issuing license plates. She asks to see ID and Green Card. Our applicant doesn’t have that stuff. At this point one of two things happens.

(1)If the drivers license lady refuses to issue a license and calls the INS. Our applicant, his brothers and cousins high tail it out of there, collect their extended families and make it for the turkey plants in Minnesota or across the Marquette Bridge into Wisconsin. They do that by driving their rattle trap car on the public highways where you and I are going about our business with no license and not one scrap of liability insurance.

(2)The drivers license lady calls the sheriff instead of the INS. A deputy shows up and takes our applicant, his brothers and his cousins into custody, flings them into the county jail and then the sheriff calls the INS. In a week or so some INS agent shows up and hauls the whole bunch off to the county jail in Omaha pending deportation hearings. As a result of this nobody from the undocumented community ever applies for a drivers license again. Rather they charge up and down the public highways where you and I are going about our business without drivers licenses and without one shred of liability insurance.


Now just how that has rendered our dear country one bit safer from Jiahadist Terror is beyond my understanding. What it does is substantially increase the chance that if some Mexican, Central American, Russian or Ukranian sideswipes my car, or house, or daughter or wife, or, God forbid, me, there is going to be no insurance coverage and my insurance rates are going to go up. Better we have some rational immigrant labor policy along the lines of what I understand to be ( and I feel sure God will forgive me for this) the President’s guest worker program.

You will note that this discussion does not even touch the volatile possibility of having some over officious police officer in a long leather coat and a sub-machine gun slung around his neck swaggering up and demanding to see my papers – Seine Auswiess, Bitte?

[Eva Luna]

Actually, when I first heard about this, the thing that leaped out at me was the completely unreasonable burden being placed on state agencies, in that they would be responsible not just for accepting all the forms of ID required to secure a driver's license but reviewing and verifying them as well.

Anytime you get state-level bureaucrats trying to understand Federal immigration laws, you get trouble. There are literally dozens of documents or combinations of documents that can verify that a person is legally present in the U.S., and even the agency that is supposed to understand and enforce them fucks up a lot of the time. And why make a legally present foreign national's driver's license expire on the same day as his/her visa if he/she can remain legally in the U.S. for another 240 dyas after it expires if an extension was filed before its expiration? (And work legally, if the visa category includes employment authorization?)

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services takes several months in most cases to process the extension petition, so the people are supposed to not drive during that period, even if their jobs, etc. require it? This is a dumb idea.

More on the REAL ID Act (see p. 5 for info on driver's license requirements):

http://aila.org/fileViewer.aspx?docID=18433

Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal

[Hyperelastic]

They do that by driving their rattle trap car on the public highways where you and I are going about our business with no license and not one scrap of liability insurance.


How does getting a driver's license make you a safer driver or better able to afford liability insurance?

[Spavined Gelding]

How does getting a driver's license make you a safer driver or better able to afford liability insurance?
Pretty obviously it doesn’t. However, the experience here is that our immigrant are working – they don’t come here for the climate. They do apply for a license, they do show minimal competence and they do have insurance and they have funds to do all that from the employment that brought them here in the first place. Just as soon as the drivers license process becomes part and parcel of the immigration police the motivation to get a drivers license and to have minimal insurance is gone and replaced by a motive to avoid seeking a license and to avoid the insurance requirement that is tied to the drivers license. That requiring proof of legal resident status as a requirement for a drivers license some how makes the nation safer is, it seems to me, a dubious proposition, and that it promotes uninsured driving, and thus makes it more likely that there will be no compensation for people injured, seems apparent.

In places like California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas where immigration across the southern border seems to give a lot of people the willies things may be different , but out here in the Upper Mississippi River Valley, except for the occasional reactionary Congressman ranting about “English Only” and so called official language, there are vew people who see the Mexican, Central American, Russian and Ukranian families who have recently joined us as any sort of a terrorism threat. Too many of us remember our grand parent’s immigration stories not to identify with these people to some extent. These people have lives that a hard enough already without making it harder in order to promote some hypothetical gain in national security.

[zagloba]

When the Real ID act comes into full effect, will a passport still be sufficient ID for air travel? I note that the Real ID act requires proof of address, but IRC getting a passport does not.

Spavined Gelding, how is the DL applicant supposed to show proof of insurance if he doesn't own a car? Or does liability insurance in IA pertain to the driver, rather than the vehicle? In CA, proof of insurance is required for vehicle registration, but not for DL.

[PatriotX]

How do the new ID standards help prevent terrorism?

[Squink]

How do the new ID standards help prevent terrorism?
Foreign terrorists will be so fearful of identity theft, and the subsequent thrashing of their credit rating, that they will stay out of the US alltogether.

[Mr. Moto]

Just for starters, some of the September 11th highjackers got drivers licenses illegally from a Virginia DMV office right across the street from where I was living at the time. They then used those ID's to board the planes.

http://www.valawyersweekly.com/terrorist.htm

Now, you may debate whether this law would be effective in this area, but the fact is that the threat is there.

[Ravenman]

As a result of this nobody from the undocumented community ever applies for a drivers license again. Rather they charge up and down the public highways where you and I are going about our business without drivers licenses and without one shred of liability insurance.Uh, yeah. If we outlaw reckless driving without a license, then only outlaws will drive recklessly without a license. :rolleyes:

I'll make you a bet. If, after Real ID is phased in (assuming it isn't struck down as unconstitutional), if there is any appreciable increase in traffic accidents due to unlicensed illegal immigrants, I'll eat my hat.

[Duckster]

Pushed by House GOP conservatives, Congress is about to enact federally mandated standards for issuing driver's licenses, including a requirement that persons seeking a new license or renewing an old one produce a birth certificate, photo ID, proof of a valid Social Security number and a document with full name and address.
Hmmm, let's see.

Assuming the news article left out a few tidbits of important information, let's take a stab at it:

1) Birth Certificate - A birth certificate or a certified birth certificate? If a county or state requires proof of identification in order to issue you your own certified birth certificate, what will the proof be? A driver's license? A credit card? Just your word?

2) Photo ID - A photo ID as issued by a government agency, an employer or something I can create with my computer? If issued by the first two, why sort of ID will they need in order to create the photo ID in the first place? A driver's license? A birth certificate? A certified birth certificate? Just your word?

3) Proof of a valid Social Securitry Number - I assume this to mean my SSN issued by the SSA to me? And how does the SSA issue me proof of my SSN? Weerll, according to the SSA, they require two forms of identification, such as:


Driver's license
Marriage or divorce record
Military records
Employer ID card
Adoption record
Life insurance policy
Passport
Health Insurance card (not a Medicare card)
School ID card


A replacement SSN card for those who lost theirs so many years ago need two of these:


Driver's license
Marriage or divorce record
Military records
Employer ID card
Adoption record
Life insurance policy
Passport
Health Insurance card (not a Medicare card)
School ID card


4) A document showing my name and address - Something like a utility bill or something? You know, where one does need to prove who you are in order to obtain the identification. Can I print out my own name and address from my computer using a business form I created myself or purchased from Office Depot?

Anyone notice a pattern here? Shall I direct you to the Department of Redundancy Department for an explanation? Since many of the official IDs require other official IDs and many of them require a driver's license as an ID, at what point do we break the circle?

And ultimately, will this do anything to prevent a terrorist attack or three in America? I mean, that's the intent of the legislation, isn't it? After all, the bill is an Act "To establish and rapidly implement regulations for State driver’s license and identification document security standards, to prevent terrorists from abusing the asylum laws of the United States, to unify terrorism-related grounds for inadmissibility and removal, and to ensure expeditious construction of the San Diego border fence."

Ordinary people, even kids, have been obtaining false IDs for years and that hasn't stopped illegal activities. Those with the knowledge, means and wherewithal can produce flawless false IDs. Would not a terrorist with the right backing be able to do the same under the Real ID Act to accomplish their mission? After all, an almost flawless fake driver's license, accompanying credit cards and the like, only need to be used long enough to complete a terrorist act.

[Ravenman]

Anyone notice a pattern here? Shall I direct you to the Department of Redundancy Department for an explanation? Since many of the official IDs require other official IDs and many of them require a driver's license as an ID, at what point do we break the circle?A number of states already require picture IDs, a SSN, and a utility bill before they issue driver's licenses: Washington, DC, does as well. If these states can do it, why can't others?

[PatriotX]

Just for starters, some of the September 11th highjackers got drivers licenses illegally from a Virginia DMV office right across the street from where I was living at the time. They then used those ID's to board the planes.

http://www.valawyersweekly.com/terrorist.htm

Now, you may debate whether this law would be effective in this area, but the fact is that the threat is there.
So, the new ID standards mean that they will have to get a few more fake documents than before? That's it? That's what we're risking invasion of our privacy, etc for? So that terrorists will have to get a few more fake documents than beofre?
Shirley there's some further benefits re the GWoT than merely requiring terrorists to fake a couple of extra documents, right?

[drachillix]

There's no such thing as a safe computer database. All you can do is make it more risky and difficult to get into than the benefit from doing so.
A db with everyone's everything in it is just asking for trouble and saying please.

Maybe you have heard of the IRS?

[drachillix]

Do you think this will stop them from driving?

What you will get is many more driving without a license or insurance.

and more of them going to jail and or being deported for minor traffic violations that would otherwise not even inspire any inquiry beyond producing said licence to a police officer.

[Squink]

Shirley there's some further benefits re the GWoT than merely requiring terrorists to fake a couple of extra documents, right?Think of it as an extension of the useless airport searches and do not fly lists, they irritate many people and take up resources that could be used to actually fight terrorists, but they also convince a lot of people that something is being done about the problem.

If the planet Mars were knocked out of its orbit and onto a collision course with earth, 75% of the people in the US would be think the Government was doing a good job of addressing the problem if it offered a tax credit for fallout shelter construction.

[Hyperelastic]

Sorry, folks, the law has passed (http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=36413) the House. :)

The information provided by Eva Luna says that the new requirement only applies to driver's licenses that are to be acceptable as ID by federal agencies (e.g. as ID to board a plane). States are still free to issue whatever kinds of ID or licenses they want, except that if they don't meet the federal standard, they have to be clearly marked so that they cannot be used as ID for federal purposes.

The opposition to this seems to come from two groups: people who think illegal aliens should be able to come and go as they please, live, work, and sponge off the government just like U.S. citizens, and people who are so knee-jerk libertarian that they regard their library card as the foul boot of government on their necks. Fortunately, those people are a tiny minority. Most people realize that if the government cannot or will not control the border, there has to be some reasonable means of keeping track of who is in the country legally.

I do not see how this is a step toward a national ID. This law does not expand the role of the driver's license as generic ID. It simply regulates existing uses. Your driver's license will still function as it always has, unless you're an illegal alien. The only thing that will change is that illegal aliens won't be able to use their driver's licenses as ID for federal purposes. If states want to issue licenses to illegal aliens, they can still do so, but they'll have to be a different color or something. That means every time an illegal alien has to use a DL as ID, the person accepting it will know he's an illegal alien. That infuriates some people, but it tickles me pink. Maybe this will clue the general public in to the magnitude of the problem we have.

[Squink]

people who think illegal aliens should be able to come and go as they please, live, work, and sponge off the government just like U.S. citizens, and people who are so knee-jerk libertarian that they regard their library card as the foul boot of government on their necks.Innocent on both counts here. Centralizing information on this scale, without also putting in a plan that ensures its security, and prevents the possibility of abuse by either the government, industry, or corrupt locals is foolish. Perhaps the border states need some method of ferreting out illegals, but imposing a top down federal solution places a burden on all states, whether or not they have a problem.

[rjung]

Sorry, folks, the law has passed (http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=36413) the House. :)
Sure; it's the Senate that still has to pass it. But I ain't giving good odds that it won't.

And someone on Slashdot raised an interesting point about the act: it has a requirement that the new cards be "machine-readable," but doesn't specify what machine-readable mechanism will be used. It's not inconceivable, therefore, that the cards will be equipped with RFID tags, allowing anyone with an RFID reader to read them.

Now imagine a law-enforcement officer pointing an RFID reader into a crowd, and instantly knowing everyone's personal identification information with one zap of the trigger... dunno about you, but I think that's the kind of stuff that makes Orwell jealous.

[PatriotX]

Maybe you have heard of the IRS?Consider them heard of. I agree with you that this presents the same undesirable risks. I'm just as opposed to one as the other. I'm even more opposed to having multiple risks. Is that what you're looking for?


The opposition to this seems to come from two groups...
I must be the excluded third. I'm not entirely clear on every way that this might be a bad thing, however, I know that when politicians start selling you bullshit that something's amiss. That the idea's being siold to "combat terrorism" tells me enough to know that someones're trying to fuck us oversomehow- why else would they be lying? Increasing the hassle that 200mil some odd people need to get through their daily lives merely to create a minor obstacle for a doggedly determined several dozen seems like a very bad trade off. As Rumsfeld noted, we're spending in the billions and they're spending in the millions. If we truly are waging a generational war, these sorts of efficiency concers need to be taken into account.
Shirely, we could create just as large if not larger of a minor inconvenience for terrorists w/o inconveniencing the bulk of the US population.
Something's not right. I'm not sure yet what it is, but I can tell something's rotten under the floorboards.

[PatriotX]

Now imagine a law-enforcement officer pointing an RFID reader into a crowd, and instantly knowing everyone's personal identification information with one zap of the trigger...
What about Jane and Joe Scammer w/ the same technology?
The risks seem to outweigh the benefits.

[Raygun99]

Couldn't a State decide to put RFIDs in their ID cards all on their lonesome?

[rjung]

What about Jane and Joe Scammer w/ the same technology?
I'd put that up there with identity thieves hacking into customer databases. At least those crimes have sentences. Legalized officials being able to track where everyone goes (just set up a bunch of RFID scanners and correlate the results) creeps me out more.
Couldn't a State decide to put RFIDs in their ID cards all on their lonesome?
Sure, and PO'd residents can easily move to another state as a result. Moving to another country isn't as trivial.

[Squink]

Legalized officials being able to track where everyone goes (just set up a bunch of RFID scanners and correlate the results) creeps me out more.But if you ever go overseas with one of these, to some place where they have terrorists, RFID's will make it much simpler for them to pick you out of a crowd.

[Hyperelastic]

Now imagine a law-enforcement officer pointing an RFID reader into a crowd, and instantly knowing everyone's personal identification information with one zap of the trigger... dunno about you, but I think that's the kind of stuff that makes Orwell jealous.

I don't see anything in the law that says you have to get the new ID. It seems like you could just take the "non-fed" version if you were worried about identity theft or bad cops. You could just use your passport for federal ID.

I don't like a national ID any more than the next guy, but we've gotten ourselves into a situation that will soon demand it. What's Orwellian is how the present administration not only refuses to enforce the duly enacted immigration laws, but harshly criticizes people who try to help it do so. Until that changes, we will be forced to continue compromising the rights and security of citizens in order to manage the millions of people who live here yet owe no loyalty to the United States.

[Steve MB]

What's Orwellian is how the present administration not only refuses to enforce the duly enacted immigration laws, but harshly criticizes people who try to help it do so.
It's quite evident that the government doesn't want the problem to be solved -- if it were, it couldn't be used as a pretext.

[rfgdxm]

Pushed by House GOP conservatives, Congress is about to enact federally mandated standards for issuing driver's licenses, including a requirement that persons seeking a new license or renewing an old one produce a birth certificate, photo ID, proof of a valid Social Security number and a document with full name and address.
Umm...I am a US citizen living in Michigan, and just renewed my drivers licence. I don't have a photo ID other than my drivers license. Wouldn't this be a problem? The only possible way I could get another photo ID is if I applied for a US passport. As I am a US citizen, I could get one. However, why should I have to get a passport to renew my drivers license?

I found out when renewing Michigan now requires that you state your Social Security number, but didn't ask for verification. They also now require you state your height and weight. I did so, but they blew it. Since I think in terms of the metric system, I put down 180 cm and 140 kilograms. The stupid computer converted that to 6 feet, even though 180 cm is a little less than 5 foot, 11 inches. Thus by order of the state I live in, I am now an inch taller than I actually am. ;)

[rfgdxm]

You could just use your passport for federal ID.
What percentage of US citizens actually have a passport? I don't. From what I have read, soon I will no longer be able to go to Canada. In the past, when going to Canada other than verbally stating my citizenship on the Canadian side the customs folks there just waved me to pass. From what I understand, while soon the Canadians may let me in the country, US customs will bounce me back to Canada if I don't have a US passport. The simplest solution to this problem is that I never leave the US. I just never imagined that border crossings would become an issue because I couldn't get back into the US. I could see why entering Canada might be a problem. After all, on that side of the border I was an alien. I just always thought on the US side it would just be "Hey, I'm a citizen here. You can't toss me off to a foreign country." I'll have to just never leave the US, for fear the US won't let me back in. :(

[DanBlather]

Well, if you think im metric you probably aren't a real American anyway :)

[BrainGlutton]

I just started a thread -- -- on how significant a problem "voting fraud" (ballots cast by legally ineligible voters) is in the U.S. It occurs to me this is a related issue. If you're concerned with "voting fraud," should you be in favor of a national ID card, which you would have to present when voting?

Such a card could, in fact, substitute for the existing voter-registration process entirely; every time you notify the relevant authorities of a change of address, you would automatically be registered to vote in your new precinct, provided you are a citizen over 18 and not otherwise ineligible (and that information could also be encoded in the main national ID card database). It would be like motor-voter but even simpler.

[Mr2001]

I'm not opposed to a national ID card, or a database of driver's license information, but I am opposed to having to present a birth certificate to renew my DL. I vaguely remember seeing my birth certificate years ago, but I have no idea where the hell it is now. Am I just supposed to stop driving or identifying myself to federal agencies if it no longer exists when my license expires in a few years?

[Broomstick]

I don't see anything in the law that says you have to get the new ID. It seems like you could just take the "non-fed" version if you were worried about identity theft or bad cops. You could just use your passport for federal ID.
The majority of Americans have never been issued a passport.

I don't think the passport issuing agency could handle a sudden influx of 200 million applications (or whatever the number would be)

[elfkin477]

Wait, so you'd need a photo ID to get a driver's license? Just what photo ID is this supposed to be?

Your soon-to-expire license? Every time I've renewed my license I had to show them the current one. I'm not sure about high school students getting their first licenses, but most high schools have photo IDs so they might use them.

[Eva Luna]

I'm not opposed to a national ID card, or a database of driver's license information, but I am opposed to having to present a birth certificate to renew my DL. I vaguely remember seeing my birth certificate years ago, but I have no idea where the hell it is now. Am I just supposed to stop driving or identifying myself to federal agencies if it no longer exists when my license expires in a few years?

You could always get a new certified copy of your birth certificate.

[BwanaBob]

Do you think this will stop them from driving?

What you will get is many more driving without a license or insurance.

It'll stop undocumented people from renting vehicles for illegal purposes.

[rjung]

...so they'll be forced to resort to stealing vehicles instead.

That's an improvement?

[BrainGlutton]

...so they'll be forced to resort to stealing vehicles instead.

That's an improvement?

It is if it makes them easier to catch.

[drewbert]

This is either another, unrelated problem with the bill or possibly just tin-foil hattery, and I'm not knowledgable enough to know which:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050509-4886.html

[rjung]

News update: The Iraq spending bill with the "Real ID" act has passed in the Senate, (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html) 100-0.

Rumors are circulating that before the vote, Karl Rove was wandering around the Senate floor, playing an audio tape that went, "Your Senator voted against funding the troops in Iraq... Your Senator voted against funding the troops in Iraq..."

[EvilHamsterOnCrack]

You could always get a new certified copy of your birth certificate.
Not if you can't. My dad was born in Iran. Lets just say that in Iran, 50 years ago, records aren't as great as they are now (hell, I'm sure they're still pretty bad). He's lived here in the US for 16 years, prior to that lived in Israel for over 30 years, theres no way he's getting a birth certificate. Is he now supposed to stop driving?