Breastfeeding in public

Getting this out of the "shut up" thread.

"Go ahead, whip it out! It's only natural!"
or
"Put those things away! We're living in a civilization here!"
or
"Hey, I want some!"

Talk amongst yourselves ;)

Shut up.

Contrary to popular belief, breastfeeding is what breasts are actually for (since they serve no real sexual function). Since we have no taboos against babies eating, the only reason it could be a problem is if someone sees breastfeeding as sexual.

It's not sexual. If Jill wants to breastfeed in public, then she's using her body the way it was designed, not as a sexual display. And if Jack sees is as sexual, that's his problem.

Your Quadell

I agree with quadell. Breastfeeding is the most natural thing ever. If someone has a problem with it, well they can just go away!
And by the way....in Ontario women can be topless in public...so there really is no problem here

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Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

I've seen my girlfriend breastfeeding. I love her and all, but I have to say that there is nothing even vaguely sexually stimulating about it. Go ahead, knock yourselves out.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

Contrary to popular belief, breastfeeding is what breasts are actually for (since they serve no real sexual function).


Oh so that's what all those breast fetishist magazines are about! I gotta get the annual breast issue of Gourmet when it comes out. But what I don't understand is why some men insist on rubbing their penis up against the food.

Hooters seems to have the right marketing idea by putting large breasts on their billboards.

You people saying that breasts have no sexual function are obviously male. Here's a tip, guys: the more you play with these things, the better we like it (assuming we like you, of course! :-)), and the more aroused we get.

And breastfeeding itself can be a, er, stimulating experience . . . at least from our perspective.

-Melin

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Phenomenal woman
Bitch Corporate Lawyer
That's me

The kid has to eat, what do you expect him to do?

I'm moving to Ontario! Woo Hoo!

I've seen my girlfriend breastfeeding. I love her and all, but I have to say that there is nothing even vaguely sexually stimulating about it. Go ahead, knock yourselves out.
ahh, very enlightened and all that, but sould you let loverock watch her?????

o yeah!!!! Ill watch her!!!womin can be ok to show there boobis andi'll help if u want!!!! if your sexy. My mom use to brestfeed my sister and me too

i like girls wiht relly big brest. DO you?

Hooters seems to have the right marketing idea by putting large breasts on their billboards.

If you are talking about the O's in the Hooters logo, those are NOT breasts, they are owl eyes. The name Hooters also applies to owls, and not anything else. Hooters said so when the government sued them for discrimination. Obviously, you cannot put a bra on owl eyes - which would suggest a great defense team slogan - "If the bra don't fit, you must aquit".

If you are talking about the women on the billboards, well, I'm sure they have something to do with owls, too. But you'd have to ask the Hooters legal department for clarification.

Oh, and topolino - get your mind out of the gutter.

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The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. -- E. Grebenik

To me, the "it's a natural function" argument is not very convincing. Ok, it's a natural function. So's defacating -- do you do that in public? So's coughing or sneezing -- do you cover your mouth? For that matter, coitus is a natural function. Do we do that in public? (well, some of us do, see, Strangest place you ever did it thread)

Before you flame me as hideously unenlightened, please understand -- I am generally not offended by women breastfeeding in public. It just doesn't bother me (or arouse me either, Beavis).

However, I do recognize it does offend some people and runs counter to their nudity taboo. Being a considerate person, I try not to offend others when possible.

I am also aware that there exists a creature I'll call "the militant public breastfeeder." I have observed mothers whose philosophy seems to be, "By God, nursing a perfectly normal natural thing, so I'm entitled to do it whenever and whereever I want to. Therefore, I'll do it in the most public place I can find." Some people seem to choose their time and location for shock value.

I guess, all I'm saying is, why breastfeed in the middle of the American Legion's meeting with American Society of Prudish Battleaxes when there's a nice quiet room off to the side available?

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President of the Vernon Dent fan club.

Let me clarify: defecation is a societal taboo. And for a good reason. So is coughing with your mouth uncovered. It spreads disease. Coitus is taboo because, well, this could be a whole other thread, but let's just assume it's for a good reason. The fact that these are "natural" is irrelevant; they're still taboo, and that's fine.

So why is breastfeeding taboo? It doesn't spread disease or involve human waste. It's taboo because of the inferred sexual connotations, which I believe are the result of ridiculously strong puritanism. It's as if a man with a foot fetish tries to go around making people feel bad for being barefoot. If there was a societal taboo against barefootedness for that reason, I'd go around barefoot in the most public place I could find, just to say "I'm barefoot! It's not sexual! Get over it!"

So you go, mama.

Your Quadell

I breastfed my son. I tried to be considerate -- even of the imbeciles offended by public breastfeeding, but I DID do it in public when there was no option. If there was a nice private room available with a comfortable chair or sofa, I went there. Often there was not. Many public bathrooms don't feature a "rest" area with a sofa -- some do, but most don't. Breastfeeding takes 20 minutes or so (with my son -- some kids take longer) and 20 minutes is a long time to sit on a toilet. I always tried to be discreet -- covered up with a blankie, you know, but once or twice he pulled the blankie off. Nobody could see much -- the kids head was in the way -- and I replaced the blankie ASAP. Oh well, the kids gotta eat, you know!


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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

Agreed, Quadell, that there's no good reason for it to be taboo. (Incidentally, I think it's a taboo that's dying out.) However, we both agree that it is offensive to a certain segment of the population. All I'm saying is, why offend people if you don't have to? If it's necessary, fine. But you won't convince me that its OK to be inconsiderate of other people's feelings, even if those feelings are somewhat ill-derived.

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President of the Vernon Dent fan club.

If you are talking about the O's in the Hooters logo, those are NOT breasts, they are
owl eyes. The name Hooters also applies to owls, and not anything else. Hooters said so when the government sued them for discrimination. Obviously, you cannot put a bra on owl eyes - which would suggest a great defense team slogan - "If the bra don't fit, you must aquit".

No, I'm referring to the large breasted women but I sure do believe them when they say "hooters" refers to owls. Yep, sure do!

If you are talking about the women on the billboards, well, I'm sure they have something to do with owls, too. But you'd have to ask the Hooters legal department for clarification.

Oh, yeah, the Large-Breasted Owl-Woman. I think I saw a piece of Animal Planet about them.

Oh, and topolino - get your mind out of the gutter.

Yes, sir! *salute* I wanna be an Airborne Ranger/Live that life of blood and danger...


I was merely pointing out that breasts are used to sell everything. If they were not highly sexualized, the porn industry would have no interest in showing them, advertisments wouldn't use them, movies couldn't lured people into the theater with the promise of full frontal nudity and on and on. Maybe they're MEANT to provide food but I seriously doubt that their extremely common use in entertainment and advertising is meant to promote a feeling of hunger.

Do I support the use of breasts to sell a product? No. I just think it's ridiculous to suggest that they're merely food containers and people who see them in a sexualized light have themselves to blame. If you're pummelled with a certain idea your whole life, it's rather hard to break free of that idea and make a totally independent, objective judgment. For example, if one has been told all their life that being straight is the way to be-you see straight couples in ads, on TV, in movies, everywhere-is it going to be a piece of cake to suddenly completely accept a gay couple as being completely normal? No, it takes some value reevaluation. Some people can take a step back and look at the situation and their values onjectively and decide that gay couple are completely entitled to the same acceptance and respect that straight couples have. Other people won't be able to do this because the media and everyone around them have condemned homosexuality for so long that they're convinced that homosexuality is abnormal.

Another example..in the thread "Why are men attracted to bimbos?", Sassy (I think) asks why men are attracted to scantily dressed women with breasts larger than their head. Someone answered that it's because men like pretty women and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, whose definition of "pretty"? In most cases magazines, TV, movies, ads, and friends tell both men and women what is pretty so it's very easy to believe something is pretty if you're told that it is.

So breasts are merely biological food containers. OK. How often to you see a TV show, ad, or movie depicting this assertion? Not very often. How often do you see breasts in a non-food context? A hell of alot. It takes a really strong person to rise above the messages they see every day and see breasts as just breasts and people as just people without placing any societal-promoted ideas of sex on them. Maybe you can do it. I think you're in a minority.

I'm with frank6 on thisAll I'm saying is, why offend people if you don't have to?
When we do something that makes others uncomortable, thats rude,period.
I breastfed both my kids, and if I absolutelyhad to do it in public, I covered myself in a modest fashion.It is not hard, and common courtesy is always in fashion :)

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xo kellibelli
"if nobody's sick, and nobody's dyin', nothing else matters."...my Mom

let me add too, that nursing my babies was one of the most beautiful, spiritual-even, experiences of my life, and I cherished every second, it was too special and personal to share with strangers even if they weren't bothered by it...it is such a complete expression of love to feed one's child with the milk your body creates...to look down at the adoring face of your baby..it is really hard to discribe.

kellibelli gave us:
ahh, very enlightened and all that, but sould you let loverock watch her?????

To which a Mr L. Ock was kind enough to reply:
o yeah!!!! Ill watch her!!!womin can be ok to show there boobis andi'll help if u want!!!! if your sexy. My mom use to brestfeed my sister and me too

Actually, Kelli, I meant that women should feel free to do it, not that I was selling tickets to watch my girlfriend ;)

As for Mr Ock, all I have to say is that I don't think I'm sexy enough for you to watch my girlfriend. At least that's what I think you said.


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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

Jophiel, don't you agree, its really too special a moment to share with just anyone?

Oh, cripes, boys and girls, it isn't a frigging trip to Lourdes or Medajorge, it's feeding your kid. I can watch six puppies at a time do it.

When we do something that makes others uncomortable, thats rude,period.

Hey, I find religion pretty offensive, but that doesn't seem to stop anybody.

...it's feeding your kid. I can watch six puppies at a time do it.
Six puppies at a time can feed your kid? Dear lord, man, what sort of child do you have?

Kelli: Are you asking me if I think there shouldn't be breastfeeding in public because I don't want other people looking at her?

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...it's feeding your kid. I can watch six puppies at a time do it.

Six puppies at a time can feed your kid? Dear lord, man, what sort of child do you have?

Well I changed my last name to "Dennison" from "Moreau" . . .

Hey, I find religion pretty offensive, but that doesn't seem to stop anybody.
thats what I mean, if you do something that makes people uncomfortable, its rude!!religion-shoving-down -throats is , well, rude
and Jophiel, I just mean that why would you want to share the sight of your woman feeding your baby with the crass cretins of the world?why expose mom & babe to the negativity, when they can have a peaceful feeding in private, or discretelyin a quiet public place....when a woman whips out a tittie and pops it in juniors mouth, it diminishes woman kind and makes us into the whelping bitch(female dog) with puppies.
ps, any woman who nurses...you are giving your baby the best possible start, and GOOD FOR YOU!!!its not always easy, or convenient, so pat yourself on the back.




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xo kellibelli
"if nobody's sick, and nobody's dyin', nothing else matters."...my Mom

kellibelli:
>> why expose mom & babe to the negativity, when they can have a peaceful feeding in private, or discretelyin a quiet public place.... <<

Well, there isn't always a private place around when the kid needs to eat, unfortunately. If by "discreetly", you mean covered with a blanket or something, I agree.
Frankly, the nursing women I've seen DO cover up to nurse and DON'T telegraph the fact that they are doing so. I've never seen a women "whip out a tittie and pop it in junior's mouth." Anybody who gets offended by a women nursing a baby modestly (you know, with the blankie shielding the action in the near-universal fashion) is just being too damn picky. As for: "...nursing my babies was one of the most beautiful, spiritual-even, experiences of my life, and I cherished every second, it was too special and personal to share with strangers even if they weren't bothered by it..." Well, I dunno. I DID enjoy nursing my son, and was sorry that I wasn't able to nurse my daughter, but I still think it is a pragmatic rather than spiritual thing. I was FEEDING the kid not worshipping him. Also, if he didn't get it when he wanted it he sounded like an air-raid siren. Believe me, discreet public nursing when necessary was VASTLY preferrable to letting him go hungry! And, I certainly didn't feel that nursing in public was "sharing" the experience with the populace. Now, if I had said, "Sir, would you like a suck?..."



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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

Thanks gals for the "pat on the back" about my decision to breastfeed. It's been a difficult 2 weeks, and I assumed it would come so easily! No one told me "latching on" could be as difficult as getting the damned space shuttle to dock with Mir!

I was considering going to the museum today to see this Egypt exhibit but might not since I may have to nurse while there. No comfy chairs to sit in. :(
While shopping the other day, I noticed that dressing rooms seem ideal for nursing, especially at the nicer department stores. Privacy *and* the comfy chair. :)

It can be done discreetly. I don't consider it spiritual- I was allergic to cow's milk formulas and soy formulas. My twin nieces suffer the same and are on a horribly expensive and nasty formula. I want what's best for my little boy...that's all.

PR

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If you're not part of the solution you're just scumming up the bottom of the beaker.

Anybody who gets offended by a women nursing a baby modestly (you know, with the blankie shielding the action in the near-universal fashion) is just being too damn picky
damn straingt, and they shoulndt be staring at your bosom either.
I was always discrete...my aunt however, well, she whipped those puppies out at the least whimper from baby, and almost as if she wanted to bother people...that is who I was referring too, prarie rose, it does get easier...watch spicy foods, or those high in acid they might upset little Christopher (is that his name?)and if you call the museum, they just might have a nursing room, even the mall here in nowheretown has one, comfy chair n'all :)
oh, and one more piece of unsolicited advice, do what feels right...never mind the damn books,if you are tired and want to nurse jr. in bed, do it, follow your heart, it will make you both happier.(rub his little head for me will ya? I love babies!- oh wait, he was a good size, cancel the 'little'part. :))
the whole spiritual thing...well, maybe it is just with certain babies, I didnt feel the earth move when I nursed my first son, and I loved them equally, but I found nursing #2 the big bonding experience...dunno why.

I breastfed for 7 months. I wanted to go longer (more for finiancial reasons and health reasons than anything else) but the emerging of teeth and his desire to teeth on me ended it PDQ. I didn't find Breastfeeding spiritual. I didn't find it a pain either, well, after I got past the first three weeks of sore and painful nipples. BF forces a Mother to sit down for 15-30 minutes and relax. i loved it because I would read while feeding. I must have read a book a day during those 7 months. I am a tremendous proponent of relaxing.

What I found amazing was that BF was what breasts are for. No one tells you that when your breasts are full of milk and your child is nursing that you cannot feel it leave your body ( like when you pee and feel the rush of urine.) You (well I did) had to touch my breast to see if it still felt hard)

For those who are turned on by breastfeeding mama's, all I have to say is take a taste of it and you will change your mind. After the first one or two pulls, the sweetness is gone and it is pretty narly stuff. (This is from a couple of dads who talked about it with my hubby. He confirmed it.) I pumped solely once to see what this conconction tasted like and well, ptoooey! If my son likes my breastmilk, then'll he'll think my cooking is Julia Child!

As for breastfeeding in public, I did it everywhere. Cars, restrooms, restaurants, parks, stores, airplanes. I didn't use a blanket because nothing draws (IMHO) more attention to a BF Mom that a blanket draped across. Might as well wear hunter orange and put a neon sign around your head. I would BF in a bar with hubby's friends around and they never knew I was feeding. I didn't bare my boob for all to see, I would wear a sports bra (more support and no stupid latches to manuver with one hand) life up my shirt just enough and put the baby on. Most of the time no one even noticed. They thought my son was asleep on my lap. You learn to eat with one hand, though.

Good luck Prarie. Take your time and enjoy your son !



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People change not because they see the light but because they feel the heat.

I was breastfed until I was two. The only reason my mother stopped was because some woman had walked past her and muttered, "that child is too old to be breastfed!"

I'm not anywhere close to being a mother but I certainly hope I would be stronger than my mother and ignore disapproving comments from strangers and posts. Why should anyone care if a child has a pacifier at age 3? Is it any of your business or does it affect you to any degree, PTV? There needs to be a MYOB thread!

Anyway, the benefits of breastfeeding are so great that I think society in general should be THRILLED at the sight of a nursing mother.

You people saying that breasts have no sexual function are obviously male. Here's a tip, guys: the more you play with these things, the better we like it (assuming we like you, of course! :-)), and the more aroused we get.

Speak for yourself. With me, that's about as much of a turn-on as watching My Three Sons.

The previous post will make more sense to those who know that Drain Bead is a woman...

Your Quadell

Also, it'll help to know she's a huge My Three Sons fan ;)

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

Back from a computer crash, responding to comments made several days ago, some originating in the "Shut Up" thread where this all started.

Maitlandish:

Burping, peeing, shitting, not bathing. These things are all
"the way nature intended." Society, however, is not natural.

Yes, they are peeing, shitting and bathing the way nature intended. And our society (most human societies, in fact) have basically agreed that these things should be done privately because we find them offensive.

However, EATING is not offensive (usually). And all breastfeeding is is a child EATING. It's normal, it's healthy, it's beautiful, it's good. Because some people are too stupid and lame not to stare, it doesn't make it the mother's problem.

Why should we perpetuate the unreasonable and pathetic hangups of unenlightened people by bowing to them? We shouldn't. You can only create change by doing, you can't wait for everyone to be in agreement.

To me, the "it's a natural function" argument is not very convincing. Ok, it's
a natural function. So's defacating -- do you do that in public? So's coughing
or sneezing -- do you cover your mouth?

See the above. Eating is eating. It is normal for human infants to eat the food that nature intended, straight from its source. And I'm not going to suggest that they or their mother should in any way be uncomfortable or ashamed by asking them to remove themselves.



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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

My wife breast fed our first two for about a year, and plans on breast feading our Chris for about the same. I'll confirm most of what is said here - most mothers who breast feed in public try to find an out-of-the-way place, or cover up. No problem with me.

What I do have a problem with are the radicals. When Chris was in his bassenett in the hospital, there was a little card on it, with his name, birth date, statistics, etc. It also had a drawing of a woman whipping her tit out, and the largest letters on the card said "I'm a BREASTFED BABY". Do we need to advertise that much?

Then, while in the hospital, we received literature from the LaLeche League (sp?). I aggree that breast milk is the best thing a baby can have, and you should breast feed them as long as possible, but they suggest 4 years. I'm sorry, but when that kid is old enough to come running up to momma, lift up her shirt and start sucking, that is too damned old for breast feeding.

And while I'm venting, I hate seeing 3-year-olds and older with pacifiers. Mom, take that damned thing away and learn to tell your child "NO!"

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"The large print givith, and the small print taketh away."
Tom Waites, "Step Right Up"

PTVroman, congrats on your new son and your wonderful choice of name for him (my son's name is Chris also). The only note about BF on my son's hospital bassinet was "BF, no glucose or pacifiers". Since he roomed in with us the whole time the tag wasn't necessary for the nurses.

I agree that La leche league can be a bit militant. I go to the group and find much of the information helpful, but you have to let some of it go in one ear and out the other. It seems there's always one woman in the group nursing a 3 year old, and it never fails to make me queasy. It's none of my damn business how she raises her kid, but I can't help but feel uneasy when the kid runs up to her and unbuttons her shirt!

I guess my issue with *really* late breastfeeding is that the moms I've seen doing it seem to use it in place of other ways of meeting the child's comforting or snacking needs. Maybe I'm mean, but if your three year old is asking for breastmilk maybe a glass of juice or some cuddling is in order, not opening your blouse.

Off to go feed again...I feel like a cow somedays. :( Mooooooo......

PR

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If you're not part of the solution you're just scumming up the bottom of the beaker.

I agree that La leche league can be a bit militant. I go to the group and find much of the information helpful, but you have to let some of it go in one ear and out the other.

On the AOL board someone called the La Leche League the "milk nazis." Not far off, IMO. I had a really easy time nursing my son -- I enjoyed it and had no difficulties at all. Therefore, I had nothing to do with the League after their one visit to me in the hospital. I would have nursed Nick for at least a year, but I got pregnant with my daughter when he was 5 months old. I kept on nursing until he was 8 months, when my OB-GYN made me stop -- I wasn't gaining weight because all the calories I took on board were going to either the baby or my milk. Anyway, I planned on nursing the new one, too. Unfortunately, she was nearly 3 months premature. So, I started in pumping milk to be stored until she could be fed (using a pump donated by the La Leache League). I should mention that Dori was born while we were on vacation at my in-laws house. After 2 weeks, my husband had to go back to work so I (and Nick, who was not yet 1 year old)stayed with my in-laws, both of whom were still working. Thank goodness it was summer and my teen age sister-in-law was very helpful about babysitting Nick. Dori was VERY sick with all the standard preemie stuff, I was recovering from a classic c-sction, my husband was 1000 miles away... it was gruesome. I was spending every morning at the hospital, the afternoons with Nick and most evenings (after Nick was asleep) back at the hospital. Anyway, after a few weeks my milk started failing. I had been pumping every three hours. La Leche recommended that I switch to every hour. Impossible. I couldn't take the pump into the NICU with Dori and spending 15 minutes out of every hour on the pump at home meant I couldn't care for Nick... Finally, I gave it up. When I took the pump back to la Leche (expecting sympathy) they were RUTHLESS. They actually said, "Your daughter is going to have plenty of health problems -- you don't want your selfishness to cause her extra problems, do you?" This is a direct quote, BTW, one I'm not likely EVER to forget! Well, being exhausted and worried (not to mention ANGRY!), I abandoned my usual lady-like demeanor and told them to jam their breast pump up their unhelpful asses. My experience with the group is that it is a support group only as long as nothing goes wrong. Then the milk storm troopers emerge!

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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

I hated breastfeeding; I found it painful, degrading, and horribly inconvenient. I feel intensely guilty because of this attitude, but there it is. On the other hand, I'm not at all offended by other people breastfeeding.
I was too shy to even consider doing it in public, so I basically stayed in the house for several months- breastfed babies need to eat all the time and it takes forever. If you can't breastfeed in public, how can you go anywhere, unless you enjoy sitting on a filthy toilet in a squalid restroom for a half hour at a time? The woman has to shoulder the entire burden; when you bottle feed you can coerce dad into helping you now and again.
If people are mildly offended by the sight of a mother modestly feeding her baby, their discomfort is considerably less than hers would be if she bowed to society's wishes and stayed home until the kid was weaned.
Besides, a baby that is breastfeeding is a baby that is not screeching.

I will agree that they are helpful unless something is wrong. While I was in the hospital, delirious from meds and struggling, I couldn't get in touch with my LLL leader. Seems she was off on a two week vacation and didn't leave her answering machine on. And this was a person who *promised* me she'd be there to help after I delivered. At least she could've left another leader's # on the freaking machine...

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If you're not part of the solution you're just scumming up the bottom of the beaker.

Re: People breast-feeding their kids to the age of two, three or beyond

I'm sorry, but I was at a friends house who had a three year old. The kid knows how to speak at this point a little bit, and watching this kid go up to his mommy, grab hold of a hooter and saying more clearly than one would expect a child this age to say anything, "Mommy, let me eat you now" was totally unnerving.

This ain't queasiness about seeing breast-feeding. I could care less about that. But I think the minute your kid is ASKING to be fed, it's time to switch over to Gerber's!

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Brian O'Neill
CMC International Records
www.cmcinternational.com (http://www.cmcinternational.com)

ICQ 35294890
AIM Scrabble1
Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

Why should
anyone care if a child has a pacifier at age 3? Is it any of your business or does it affect
you to any degree, PTV?
You're right, it isn't directly my business. But, late use of a pacifier can cause problems with dental development, and shows a parent who will always cave in to the child's demands. You do not have to jump every time the child makes a noise. From personal experience, kids that I have known that used pacifiers late tend to end up being spoiled brats.

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"The large print givith, and the small print taketh away."
Tom Waites, "Step Right Up"

I saw a kid breastfeed once who was old enough to tell you he thought the milk tasted good. His mom had just never stopped breastfeeding him.
This feels wrong to me, but I can't explain why.

Your Quadell

It feels wrong to you because you grew up in America, and considering our screwed up attitudes about sex and nudity, it probably IS wrong because of the weirdness it generates in a room when it's going on.

It creeps me out completely, myself.

HOWEVER....were we more of the hunter-gatherer society were were long ago, it would be no biggie.

All depends on context.



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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

About the 3 year olds and pacifiers debate. This use to irk me to no end. Then I had a child and entered the secret society called Parenthood. I started noticing that some children are higher needs children and have to comfort themselves. My son never took a pacifier, even though he rarely cried (only at bed time) there were a few times I could have duct taped anything there to help him thru a bad teething episode. Now just think of it in another light, none of these kids will start kindergarten with their pacifier.

My parenting pet peeve is people who do not wipe their kids runny snotty noses. Gawd, it gives me the willies just thinking about it. That or Parents who have no backbone with their children.

I totally agree with melin, but I'm a guy. I love to touch and play with them.Sure, Breasts are used for feeding babies, but they also serve a more sexual purpose.

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Show me a genius, and I'll show you a man who can't put his own pants on.

Luke

Breasts' functions are:

a) sexual
b) nutritional
c) all of the above


The answer is c. They're fabulous things! You see, the men are attracted to them sexually, so that reproduction can occur.

During pregnancy, the milk glands ramp up to prepare to feed the baby.

Just before labor, a breast can be stimulated which causes the body to produce oxytocin, which can trigger labor.

Just after the baby is born, it suckles the breast which continues to produce oxytocin, which causes the uterus to contract and recover back to its original form. Also during this time the breasts produce colostrum, a yellowish, sticky fluid that does a great job of clearing out the newborn's digestive tract. (Newborns are full of "meconium", which is a tar-like poo.)

Three to four days after that, the milk comes in! Time for junior to chow down.

I just think it's fascinating that breasts do so many things. Lets settle this argument once and for all: they're for sex AND they're for babies and the two are NOT mutually exclusive!

OK... Here's something I still don't understand, and perhaps I'm weird, but here goes:

Why the breast double standard?

I mean, why is it legal for men to go around topless, and women not to? This is not me saying I want to look at more women's breast: Honestly, breasts aren't that exciting to me one way or another. It can't be because they're sexually receptive organs: Trust me, my nipples are as sensitive as any woman's, so I don't see why I can expose them but a woman can't. Especially when breastfeeding. I mean, good god, they're MAMMARY GLANDS. That's what they're for!

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

You got me, Jayron. But last weekend at Woodstock, I can tell you this:

The standard slipped . . . tremendously.

;)

Why the breast double standard?

Isn't it New York where women can ride the subway topless? It would be nice in the summertime--and just think, an allover (almost) tan! Of course, like I need more comments from men passing by: "Ooo, momma, I love to watch them bounce!" (and that while I was dressed for work!) Maybe men would calm down about breasts a bit if they weren't hidden all the time.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

Maybe men would calm down about breasts a bit if they weren't hidden all the time.

I'm certain they would.

While we were recently at Woodstock, I asked my husband if he was enjoying the "booby show". (There were lots of girls with their tops off.) He said "Y'know, when it's presented that matter-of-factly, it stops being naughty or even all that interesting."

Also, while vacationing in the south of France, my lil' sis went topless at the beach (just like all the locals). SHe said you could spot the American boys a mile away, 'cause they were the only ones gawking. The French boys didn't give a damn.

Leslie, this is so true! (re: topless beaches in Europe) I was stationed in Sicily in the '80s and my friends and found that Sicilians were totally cool about topless sunbathing. It was considered gauche to even look. Of course, the American sailors practically tripped over their tongues on their first visits... My experience was that the American guys who were stationed in Sicily and who came to the beach regularly eventually got with the program and stopped bugging their eyes... They finally realized what the protocal was, and didn't want to seem like unsophisticated rubes, I guess. The funny thing was, OFF the beach most Sicilian guys were a menace to an American gal dressed for the street -- If I took a walk in shorts and a tank top I'd collect a group of heckling Sicilians in no time at all.

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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

Hey all-
Some of you know me from the SDMB & misc.facts groups- I rarely get over here since I had the baby :(

I'm currently nursing my first baby, Ian- 4 months old. There was never a question in my mind about formula feeding- ever.

Nursing in public has been a sore spot for us since Ian decided he'd prefer to *stand* while eating. I tried it a couple times, but he is so tall- and I'm so short- that it doesn't work anywhere but in a reclining chair, with me sitting on a cushion (he stands between my legs). So, he gets a bottle of EBM in public.

Nursing him *in public* at a friend's home is possible- I just bring my boppy pillow to sit on :) Anyhow...I've just found this thread, and wanted to comment on some of the points raised by previous posters:

---Kellibelli wrote, "..it is such a complete expression of love to feed one's child with the milk your body creates...to look down at the adoring face of your baby..it is really hard to discribe. "

That is exactly how I feel! That little "milk grin" and the eye contact/closeness is unmatched. Is it any wonder that nature designed mammalian babies to be so "cute" that their mothers (source of milk) wouldn't abandon them?

---PTVroman wrote,"What I do have a problem with are the radicals. When Chris was in his bassenett in the hospital, there was a little card on it, with his name, birth date, statistics, etc. It also had a drawing of a woman whipping her tit out, and the largest letters on the card said "I'm a BREASTFED BABY". Do we need to advertise that much?"

Yes, "we" do. And here's why they've had to become "radicals:" You see, some nurses pop a pacifier/bottle of formula or sugar water in a baby's mouth at the first sign of a fuss. It's habit with some, but is slowly changing. It causes "nipple confusion" in nursing babies, and leads to disastrous results. It sabotages their BEST start in life, and causes much stress to the nursing pair. Even very vocal nursing moms have caught nurses stuffing artificial nipples into their babies' mouths because they "didn't want to disturb the resting mother." There are "100% Breastfed" t-shirts for newborns, too. And stickers. And hats...you get the picture :)

Basically, it is a big problem in most hospitals in the U.S. Why? Because only 30% of new mothers nurse their infants, and companies like Mead-Johnson push their liquid crap on new mothers via the nurses. They get some nice incentives to do so. As do pediatricians. (but that's another debate)

When my son was born, I was the only mother (out of 8) who was nursing. Considering the prestige of the Cambridge, MA hospital, I was shocked when they tried to push the formula on me, "just so you can get some rest." Bullshit! I kept that baby with me every second (AMA- I might add)! There was NO way I was going to let him go into that nursery, knowing he'd be sucking rubber the *second* he made a peep!

So... complain all you want about those cards- but if they help just a small percentage of babies/mothers get their nursing relationship off on the right foot- then they did their job.

---PTVroman also writes, "Then, while in the hospital, we received literature from the LaLeche League (sp?). I aggree that breast milk is the best thing a baby can have, and you should breast feed them as long as possible, but they suggest 4 years. "

La Leche League International answers the question of "How long should I breastfeed?" with: As long as the mother and the baby wish to breastfeed.

The American Academy of Pediatrics currently recommends breastfeeding for at least the baby's first year. The World Health Organization recommends 2 years. I'd think you were exaggerating a bit about that literature you read- but I know that all LLL chapters have different recommendations. 4 years is a bit extreme- the few nursing moms I know of who BF for that long only do it once or twice a day- a "comfort" thing for the child, not a "nutrition" concern. Visit www.promom.org for the most complete breastfeeding advice. Good luck with the new baby!

Quadell: "Contrary to popular belief, breastfeeding is what breasts are actually for (since they serve no real sexual function)."

What? Get out of town. Personally I don't care much where breastfeeding is done, however, though it isn't a sexual act it is definately an intimate one and as such its best to take into consideration what most of the people around you think of it. I'm not a big fan of breast-feeding all over the place, though this is mainly because of the unfounded but none the less correct assumption that anybody breastfeeding in an obviously improper place like a restaurant or the front row of the theater is doing it to attract attention and make a point. Bah humbug.

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It only hurts when I laugh.

"Obviously improper place like a restaurant or front row of a theatre"

What's so obviously improper about it? Perhaps the mother feeding her child is completely indifferent to what you or anyone else thinks and is simply feeding her child and doesn't see the need to "remove" herself from your sight?

Bah humbug on you...on all of you who view it as something that should be hidden. How ridiculous. I've never had children, and I never shall, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if I did, I'd breast feed, and I wouldn't give a rats ass what anybody thought if my kid was hungry. I also wouldn't deny myself the pleasure of whatever I was doing just because YOU have hangups.

You people saying that breasts have no sexual function are obviously male. Here's a tip, guys: the more you play with these things, the better we like it (assuming we like you, of course! :-)), and the more aroused we get.

Speak for yourself. Personally, I just get annoyed when my breasts are played with. :P

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&gt;^,,^&lt;
"Cluemobile? You've got a pickup..."
OpalCat's site: http://fathom.org/opalcat
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions (http://fathom.org/teemingmillions)

My 2 cents, if I may. My sister has two children- breastfed both of them. I can clearly remember one day at her house- she had some friends over, including a guy friend we both have known forever. This guy is extremely shy/modest. Right in the middle of a conversation with him, she pulls up her blouse, opens her bra (exposing her breast) and starts feeding her baby. Didn't bother me a bit, but I'll never forget the look on his face- it was clear he just wanted to crawl away- fast. He was embarassed by the sight of her lifting her shirt and exposing her breast. He wasn't a jerk or an idiot- he wasn't against breastfeeding. He was just plain embarrassed. I'm not saying you shouldn't breastfeed in public- I'm just saying that some people are just uncomfortable with it, like my friend. When I asked her why she couldn't have excused herself for a few minutes to feed (after seeing his obvious discomfort) she took a snotty attitude of "that's his problem". Obviously it is his problem, but she could have been more descreet. This was not someone she normally would have shown her breasts to, and he was caught off guard, that's all.
I hope I can revisit this subject when I become a mom...I plan to breastfeed and will be interested to see how I feel then...

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If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

My 2 cents, if I may. My sister has two children- breastfed both of them. I can clearly remember one day at her house- she had some friends over, including a guy friend we both have known forever. This guy is extremely shy/modest. Right in the middle of a conversation with him, she pulls up her blouse, opens her bra (exposing her breast) and starts feeding her baby. Didn't bother me a bit, but I'll never forget the look on his face- it was clear he just wanted to crawl away- fast. He was embarassed by the sight of her lifting her shirt and exposing her breast. He wasn't a jerk or an idiot- he wasn't against breastfeeding. He was just plain embarrassed. I'm not saying you shouldn't breastfeed in public- I'm just saying that some people are just uncomfortable with it, like my friend. When I asked her why she couldn't have excused herself for a few minutes to feed (after seeing his obvious discomfort) she took a snotty attitude of "that's his problem". Obviously it is his problem, but she could have been more descreet. This was not someone she normally would have shown her breasts to, and he was caught off guard, that's all.
I hope I can revisit this subject when I become a mom...I plan to breastfeed and will be interested to see how I feel then...

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If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

I think a woman ought to be allowed to breast feed anywhere she would be able to bottle feed.

Frankly, I have never seen a woman "whip out a titty" like some of you are describing here. The vast majority of the time, I can't even tell a woman is breastfeeding her child when I glance at them.

I breastfed both of my children. The trick to discretion is to lift up or unbutton your shirt from the bottom. If you pop one out of the top, you will definitely expose a great deal of breast, to the point where many people will feel uncomfortable.

It's silly, in this society of ours that places extreme sexual import on the breast, to suddenly expect a large part of the population to turn off the feelings they have been conditioned to have. "Oh, that's his problem" is just rude.

I don't think women should have to excuse themselves to feed their babies. They certainly don't to feed the baby a bottle. Again, discretion is the better part of valor. And if the woman is feeding the baby and you can't really see anything then kwitcherbitchin and leave the mommy in peace.

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[Thirsty4]

My mom breastfeed all her children as did most of her friends. I therefore have no problem with a women publicly nursing. But just like any other new skill you should practice it before going out in public. Here's a good site if anyone in interested in nursing protocal.

[url]http://www.onehotmama.com/rules_road.htm[\url]

[Thirsty4]

Oh no my code is showing! See what I mean about practicing before trying it in public?

http://www.onehotmama.com/rules_road.htm

[Leslie]

What a great site! She captures my sentiments exactly, nurse everywhere and nurse discreetly.

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[DrEvil]

Titties in public? Count me in.

[Moonshine]

" "Obviously improper place like a restaurant or front row of a theatre" What's so obviously improper about it? Perhaps the mother feeding her child is completely indifferent to what you or anyone else thinks and is simply feeding her child and doesn't see the need to "remove" herself from your sight?"

Oh purleeze, does this mean I get to do whatever I want too? There are many many things that people don't want to see other people doing in public, just as there are many things that people don't find objectionable at all. Breastfeeding straddles the boundary between the two and the mother needs to decide if it is worth making some people uncomfortable and risk upsetting them, if only a little, for this particular freedom? Common sense ought to prevail and, as Leslie said, just be discreet. Interestingly enough, I have seen breast-feeding cause embarrasement in places where things such as topless sunbathing and the like are absolutely acceptable; perhaps its because breastfeeding puts something sexual together with something totally non-sexual?

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It only hurts when I laugh.

[Pooch]

Oh purleeze, does this mean I get to do whatever I want too?

If you are equating the act of breastfeeding in public with anarchy, then I guess you can do anything you want.....perhaps looting would balance your moral scales. What did you have in mind? What have you been dying to do in public, but didn't do because of your consideration for others?

I'd like to hear of your topless sunbathing experience. The image amuses me to no end. Is it a couple of guys admiring the scenery when they chance upon a mother breastfeeding and go, "Eeeewwww!! How embarrassing!" Or, is it two women strolling along the beach topless when they come across the same scene and go, "How disgusting! Has she no shame?"

The worst case breast feeding scenarios being created here are being used as ammunition against BFiP when those cases are mostly rare and very imaginative.

While discussing this with a chap at a bar I learned that he did not like to see it either. He went on though, he was completely grossed out by watching fat people eat......hhhmmmm, what a dick.

[Moonshine]

On the contrary, my moral scales are fully balanced, they only get out of kilter when people are "completely indifferent to what you or anyone else thinks". Unless you live on the moon, you will be around other people for much of your time, and showing a little consideration about what others think and feel isn't a bad thing.

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It only hurts when I laugh.

[Stoid]

On the contrary, my moral scales are fully balanced, they only get out of kilter when
people are "completely indifferent to what you or anyone else thinks".

Hmmm. How do your moral scales get put out of balance when *I* am indifferent to what others, including you, think? That really doesn't make any sense to me and I'd be obliged for clarification.

showing a little
consideration about what others think and feel isn't a bad thing.

Certainly not. But it's not something I can waste much energy on unless we are talking about people I know personally and respect. I simply do not have the time or energy or desire to concern myself in any way with the thoughts, feelings or opinions of people I do not know. First of all because there are simply too many possibilities to try and consider all of them, and secondly because I have already determined for myself what is fair, moral, healthy, satisfying and right for me. I have already determined that people I like, respect and admire are in perfect agreement with me about these things (as a general rule). Therefore, I conduct myself in ways which reflect this self-knowledge and confidence. And if someone has a problem with it, I don't care. And I can be relatively certain that I lose nothing by not caring, because me and that person are probably not on the same wavelength to begin with.

As it happens, I am a person who is often outside the mainstream in the ways in which I view the world, in what I think is good, fair, right, correct, acceptable, whatever. And having lived with that reality for 41 years, (And yes, it has been refined and shaped a great deal along the way) I'm completely comfortable with it. I know out the gate that I don't have much respect for most people, and most people are surprised by me, some even made uncomfortable. But most of the time, I am liked and respected. Even admired.

My high school years were a real eye-opening experience for me. I was very tall, very heavy, very smart, very funny, and in some ways very odd. As a result, I was also ridiculed, reviled, humiliated and shunned by 95% of my schoolmates. I was a joy to my English teachers, whom I liked and respected, and a pain in the ass to my PE teachers, whom I didn't care about. And eventually, I ended up making a circle of close friends who were, interestingly, among the most intelligent, funny, attractive and interesting people in school. Some were even among the most popular. They are some of my dearest friends to this day. So I look around my life and see who DOES like me, who ARE my friends, who DOES approve, and I feel great. You can tell a great deal about a person by the quality of their friends, and by that measure I'm in great shape.

So I'm more than ok with not spending an ounce of energy worrying about what most people think or feel. Life is far too short. Fuck 'em.



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We do precision guesswork

[The Ryan]

First, on the side issue of whether breasts are sexual:

1. Prepubescent girls don’t have breasts. Prepubescent girls can’t get pregnant.
2. Men don’t have breasts. Men can’t get pregnant.
Notice a pattern?

Since the whole point of mens’ sex drive is to impregnate someone, and breasts are a good (not perfect, but good) indicator for whether someone can be impregnated, I really don’t see why people are so surprised that men find breasts sexually stimulating. I don’t see much of a double standard; men’s chests don’t have any sexual significance, other than the absence of breasts.

Back to the main issue:
Even though an interest in breasts is, IMO, a perfectly natural facet of male sexuality, our culture does its best to make men ashamed of this interests, and to make sure that no male is comfortable viewing a breast. Viewing breastfeeding therefore goes against lifelong conditioning. You may say, well, that’s their problem. What does that mean? As long as something doesn’t bother me, anyone who is bothered by it is out of luck? That seems extremely insensitive to me. As insensitive as saying "This building isn’t wheelchair accessible? That’s okay. I’m not in a wheelchair. It’s not my problem."
I’m not saying that women shouldn’t breastfeed in public. But they shouldn’t dismiss other people’s objections to it as simply “silliness”. Most of all, they should not, as Stoidela did, imply that those that are not as comfortable with breastfeeding as them, and aren’t therefore on the same “wavelength”, are unworthy of any kind of respect and “fuck ‘em”. Perhaps Stoidela’s statements were not meant to be as hostile as my paraphrase makes them out to be, but they certainly can be interpreted that way. If you’re only friends with people who agree with you, and never take other people’s feelings into account, I’m surprised that you have any[i/] friends.
My signature seems especially appropiate here.


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" 'Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.' " -Kurt Vonnegut, [i] Breakfast of Champions

[Moonshine]

Were not talking about defending the right to free speech here; is it really possible that you have lived the last years with absolutely no difference of opinion with any of your chosen friends, have they done nothing at all you didn't like, that made you think that perhaps they weren't right thinking folk like yourself and perhaps given you an excuse to ignore what they think too? Nobody is disputing the fact that a woman "can" breastfeed in public, but is it always appropriate? Hell, if it is alright to breastfeed anytime, anywhere, regardless of what others may feel about it, then I guess I can eat with my mouth open, drop litter, push ahead of other people in queues, scratch myself in public and pass gass in elevators, what do I care what anybody else thinks, they ain't no friends of mine. There isn't a law against passing gas in an elevator, but I don't do it. Not because it pleases me, but because most people, including me, think its a little unpleasant. Likewise it would be nice for others to have the same respect for my senibilities as I do for theirs.

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It only hurts when I laugh.

[Stoid]

Moonshine:

is it really possible that you
have lived the last years with absolutely no difference of opinion with any of your chosen
friends

Of course not. But all such differences have been very superficial. We share a core belief system and world view - that is why we are friends, partly.

have they done nothing at all you didn't like, that made you think that perhaps they
weren't right thinking folk like yourself and perhaps given you an excuse to ignore what they
think too?

Nope. Not that I can recall offhand. And I look to my friends to be straight with me when they disagree with somethng I'm doing, and they are. I respect them and look to them for guidance when I am unsure, and they to me. I trust their judgment. They have been known to bust me bigtime when they think I need it. This only increases my affection and respect for them.

Nobody is disputing the fact that a woman "can" breastfeed in public, but is it
always appropriate?

You know what this question actually is? "Is it always approrpiate to feed a hungry baby naturally and healthfully?" And my answer would be a resounding, unqualified YES OF COURSE!

Now if the question were: "Is it always approrpiate to casually pull your tit out of the top of yoru shirt, thoughtlessly flop it around, spurting milk everywhere and asking everyone to examine the child latching on and sucking." Well, no, don't be silly. Breastfeeding ITSELF is always appropriate,always ok, always natural and good, everywhere all the time that it is alright to have an infant around in the first place. There are ways that it can and should be done discreetly, in a way that doesn't announce itself, and that's really all that should ever be required.

then I guess I can eat with my mouth open, drop litter, push ahead of
other people in queues, scratch myself in public and pass gass in elevators, what do I care
what anybody else thinks, they ain't no friends of mine.

Sure you can. But here's the question you have to ask: Do *I* feel good about myself eating with my mouth open? Do *I* think it's ok to drop litter? Do *I* think it's ok to scratch myself and push in line and fart freely?

For me, the only way anyone can shame me is by pointing out things I am already ashamed of or embarassed or offended by. Personally, I find farts really gross. I am grossed out by other people's farts, and embarassed FOR them, and I am grossed out and embarassed for myself at my own. On the other hand, I completely understand and relate to the following ditty:

"Better to fart and bear the shame than not to fart and bear the pain." so I dont' judge anyone who does so, and require only that they say "excuse me". I pretty much avoid doing it in front of anyone because I don't like doing it.

ALl the things you mention are rude, or destructive or gross. None of them is on the same level as breastfeeding a child. But if you felt ok about doing all of them, I would form my judgments and you could care or not. The only one that I would be in any position to protest is cutting in front in line. Then you are breaking the rules and intrufing on my rights. Actually,, same holds true in a larger sense for littering. But all the others are jsut gross behaviors that if you are cool with them, it's your business.

And don't kid yourself, either. You do not refrian from these behaviors because of your profound respect for other people's sensibilities. It's because you disapprove of the behaviors yourself, or you are grossed out yourself, or you simply don't wish to turn people against you. It's not because you "respect" diddly. My guess, and I feel secure in this, is that you AGREE with the rudeness, grossness or destructiveness of these behaviors. You are not going against your own desires or beliefs by refraining from them.




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We do precision guesswork

[Moonshine]

You are right, I don't do any of the above things, though as much because I don't want other people to do them around me as because I think they are ugly.

[Stoid]

Well, there ya go!

I think we all do or dont' do based on our own belief systems more than we think we do. I very much doubt that there are hoards of people out there just yearning to behave badly in myriad ways, but they restrain themselves exclusively because they are sensitive to others. We do what serves ourselves. Fortunately, what serves most people is to behave in ways that others generally do not find objectionable.

[Moonshine]

I still think breastfeeding should be kept private.

[tracer]

All I'll say is, if women have the right to breastfeed in public, men should have the right to gawk.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

[Stoid]

Moonshine:

Then by all means, you should hide yourself while you breastfeed. And you should feel free to be judgmental of others who do not feel as you do.

However, don't expect anything.

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*************
We do precision guesswork