Winchester or Remington?

[mangeorge]

I'm considering buying a shotgun for personal protection. I've looked at the Winchester (http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=512&type_id=104&cat=012C) and the Remington (http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/870expsyn18.htm) and can't see any real difference, except that the Winchester seems a little better built. This gun would be for defense only, I have no interest in hunting.
I'm also thinking about the option of a heavier pistol (than my .22), but I can rent those at a local range and try them out.
Entering into the equation is the fact that I plan to retire to a motorhome and kick it all around the USA till I get too old.
All opinions are appreciated.
Peace,
mangeorge
BTW; what 12ga shells would be most appropriate?

[Unregistered Bull]

The old saw is that Remington is the top of the line. I know that their Police Magnum is a quality piece with better parts and fitting than their civillian and hunting arms. But I still like Mossberg's operating system much better.

When it comes to choosing between the Win (which I am unfamiliar with) and Rem, I'd handle both and pick the one that feels the best.

Depending on your build, you might want a shorter stock like Hogue offers. I would also reccomend a quality recoil pad like Limbsaver or Hogue. Putting a steel or lead weight in the stock also cuts down on recoil alot.

As to ammunition at typical house/apartment ranges, bird shot, even No.8 or 7.5 should be extremely effective hitting more as a solid mass than as a spread of shot while minimizing over-penetration. No.4 buckshot (27 pellets) would be good in more rural areas (not in a mobile home park with close neighbors for instance). Stick to Max or Low-Recoil loads for shootability (less recoil).

In considering vehicle travel across the US, keeping the the shotgun and ammo seperate with at least one under lock and key would be wise from a legal standpoint.

[Unregistered Bull]

I would also reccomend getting some earplug and muffs (wear both) and shooting glasses and shooting the heck out of it to get used to it's operation and to insure relieability. I would do any stock shortening / recoil pad changing / weight adding prior to this shooting.

Due to my thick chest and short arms, a shorter length of pull does wonders for me with recoil reduction. http://www.hogueinc.com/getgrip/ sells a good pad / short stock combo. I like cut down wood stocks better because they mount smoother, but there is nothing wrong with the Hogue. If you have long arms, a short stock probably won't be necessary. Limbsaver recoil pads are even better than Hogue pads ( http://limbsaver.com/ ) and they will fit the Hogue short stock (12" LOP).

If you decide to add weight, BBs inside the bolt hole of a wood stock or a plastic baggie of BBs wrapped in electrical tape inside the hollow synthetic stocks are a good way to go.

[silenus]

Mossberg. (http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Law.htm) :D

[Unregistered Bull]

I put a few thousand rounds through a 590A1 Mossberg. Hundreds of jackrabbits fell to it. It wore the cut-down wood stock of an ancient Mossberg Model 600. Great gun.

[Stranger On A Train]

I'm kind of partial to Mossburg (the 500 series pumpgun) personally, but I don't think any of the standard choices will let you down. If the gun is strictly for protection, go for ghost-ring style sights and pull the magazine plug.

For handguns, I'd recommend either the Sig-Sauer line of pistols (the P220 or the P229 in .45ACP or .40S&W respectively) or the HK USP, again in the same calibers. I'm sure somebody will try to steer you toward the Beretta or the Glock, those being the most promenent among law enforcement, but while decent pipshooters I think the Sig and HK are more robust and easier to handle. (I'm not a wheelgun advocate, but if you go that way you don't need anything larger than a .357 Magnum, and indeed, that's about the best standard chambering in a revolver.)

Either way, as Unregistered Bull suggests, it is legal in all states--even those where the particular weapon might be restricted--to transport as long as the firearms are unloaded and secured out of the driver's reach. However, if you plan to zip through Canada or Mexico, you cannot bring longarms with you without prior approval, and handguns are right out.

Since you are going to be carrying these for defense, make sure you study up on the relevent transport and defensive shooting laws (whatever you think of them, the NRA has a good guide on their website which outlines the basics of firearms laws by state) and at least get safety, if not basic defensive shooting, training.

Stranger

[Nars Glinley]

Since this is IMHO and not GQ, I'll state that I always prefered Remington over Winchester. (I love my 1100) I don't have a really good reason other than I liked the feel of the Remingtons better. The action seemed smoother but that was a purely subjective opinion.

As for shot, as others have said, somewhere between a 6 and 8 would be best. They have low penetration and are dirt cheap. Practicing won't break your bank.

[Stranger On A Train]

As for shot, as others have said, somewhere between a 6 and 8 would be best. They have low penetration and are dirt cheap. Practicing won't break your bank.Actually, while #8 is a good indoor, close range round I think #3 and #4 are better general purpose defensive rounds. You'll get more range with #1 or 0 but you probably don't need that in a self-defense situation. The great thing about a pumpgun, though, is that it is easy to change ammo if you have to. 'Course, it's much better yet not to have to use it at all.

Stranger

[HPL]

I went through this same process a couple of years back. After handling a remington and winchester, I decided I liked the feel of the Remington better.

[Johnny L.A.]

I have almost no experience with shotguns. I thought about getting one for the collection, and I thought about the Remington 870 and the comparable Winchester. As others have said, Remington has a reputation for being 'better'. But Winchester is no slouch! I decided that if I got one, I'd probably go for the Winchester because the one I was looking at came with a 20" barrel and a 28" hunting barrel.

As for Mossberg, I've never seen a pretty one. But I understand they're very robust and functional. If I were to have a shotgun in a harsh environment (I dunno, on a boat or something) I think, out of the three, I'd choose a stainless Mossberg with synthetic furniture.

[brassballs]

Short answer would be: Mossberg Defender 12ga. For home defense, hands down. The Remington 1100 and 870 are good solid guns and highly upgradable. Buckshot for self defense, just be mindful of what is beyond your target.

[Bruce_Daddy]

I have a Winchester 12 guage, and I love it. The action is really smooth and it's very easy to use. A friend of mine bought a Bernelli that was $100 more, and I still like the Winchester better.

[mangeorge]

Thanks, guys. Now I gotta go look at the Mossberg. ;)

[unclviny]

For home defense:
I had a Winchester Defender in 12 G. and I sold it to buy a Mossberg Cruiser in 20 G.. With the 12 G. you are deaf and blind after the first shot but with the 20 G. followup shots are easier. The "standard, macho thing" is to suggest a 12 G. with 00 Buck for home defense but logically I think that this is completely wrong. I use #7 1/2 in my Mossy and I think it's better suited for home defense (think about the distances involved and penetration).

Whatever you buy, train with it!!

Unclviny

[bump]

All your 12 gauge pumps are going to be loud and kick like hell. It's the nature of the beast.

FWIW, Mossberg 590 is the model used by the USMC, while the Remington 870 is the model used by the US Army.

Either of those would be fine- I might even buy a used one to save a few bucks, myself. Shotguns aren't as high wear as rifles, and the barrels don't wear out nearly so fast.

[Johnny L.A.]

All your 12 gauge pumps are...
... belonging to us!

:D

[mangeorge]

For home defense:
I had a Winchester Defender in 12 G. and I sold it to buy a Mossberg Cruiser in 20 G.. With the 12 G. you are deaf and blind after the first shot but with the 20 G. followup shots are easier. The "standard, macho thing" is to suggest a 12 G. with 00 Buck for home defense but logically I think that this is completely wrong. I use #7 1/2 in my Mossy and I think it's better suited for home defense (think about the distances involved and penetration).

Whatever you buy, train with it!!

Unclviny
Actually, I thought about a 20ga for the very reasons you mention, but the store I was at (Big 5) didn't stock it in the models I was interested in. It would have more appeal for me if I could legally own it with the pistol grip and the 14" barrel. I really don't want a 12ga with a pistol grip.
I need to give this 12ga vs 20ga thing more thought. How is the 20ga for effect?
Maybe I'll throw myself on the mercy of my local, real, gun dealer.
:)

[Stranger On A Train]

Actually, I thought about a 20ga for the very reasons you mention, but the store I was at (Big 5) didn't stock it in the models I was interested in. It would have more appeal for me if I could legally own it with the pistol grip and the 14" barrel. I really don't want a 12ga with a pistol grip.
I need to give this 12ga vs 20ga thing more thought. How is the 20ga for effect?
Maybe I'll throw myself on the mercy of my local, real, gun dealer.
:)I guess I've never taken notice of how aggressive the recoil is on a 12 gauge. I've been shooting shotgun since I was 9 or 10 and I never found 2-3/4" shells (#4 or smaller shot) to be all that punishing. 3" and 3-1/2" Magnums can be a bit much but aren't typically necessary. But hey, that's me, and like I said, I've grown up with that. YMMV.

I don't recommend the pistol grip sans butt or folding stock (though I do like a fixed-stock pistol grip for tactical purposes.) Even a 20 gauge isn't terribly controllable with a pistol grip and there's no way you can properly aim the thing outside of a Michael Mann film. Then there's the whole political/image issue with "ugly guns" if you actually have to use it. Personally, I'd recommend that you stick with a plain wood or synthetic fixed grip stock, standard magazine, and no sidesaddle ammo carriers or the like. You aren't going to need more than five shots in a personal defense situation anyway.

Another longarm you might consider is the Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 ACP. I don't know if they still make it, but it was a little carbine that used 1911 magazines and was an effective short range deer gun. Or you can keep an eye out for a surplus M1 Carbine; the .30 Carbine isn't my favorite round but there's probably still a lot of surplus ammo around. Neither is as effective as a shotgun, of course, but they don't make as much noise or generate as much recoil as even a 20 gauge, either.

Stranger

[Johnny L.A.]

It would have more appeal for me if I could legally own it with the pistol grip and the 14" barrel.
Note that 18" is the minimum legal barrel length for a shotgun.

[Unregistered Bull]

Just a FWIW, but a genuine surplus M1 will be very expensive. And they don't make a the Marlin anymore.

Another course of action for a simple to use firearm is the revolver. I got my folks a DAO (double action only) Ruger SP-101 (5 shot .357) for their RV travels. They keep .38s in it. They're usually around $350.

[Johnny L.A.]

Just a FWIW, but a genuine surplus M1 will be very expensive.
How expensive? I have an extra IBM.

[mangeorge]

I guess I've never taken notice of how aggressive the recoil is on a 12 gauge. I've been shooting shotgun since I was 9 or 10 and I never found 2-3/4" shells (#4 or smaller shot) to be all that punishing. 3" and 3-1/2" Magnums can be a bit much but aren't typically necessary. But hey, that's me, and like I said, I've grown up with that. YMMV.

I don't recommend the pistol grip sans butt or folding stock (though I do like a fixed-stock pistol grip for tactical purposes.) Even a 20 gauge isn't terribly controllable with a pistol grip and there's no way you can properly aim the thing outside of a Michael Mann film. Then there's the whole political/image issue with "ugly guns" if you actually have to use it. Personally, I'd recommend that you stick with a plain wood or synthetic fixed grip stock, standard magazine, and no sidesaddle ammo carriers or the like. You aren't going to need more than five shots in a personal defense situation anyway.

Another longarm you might consider is the Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 ACP. I don't know if they still make it, but it was a little carbine that used 1911 magazines and was an effective short range deer gun. Or you can keep an eye out for a surplus M1 Carbine; the .30 Carbine isn't my favorite round but there's probably still a lot of surplus ammo around. Neither is as effective as a shotgun, of course, but they don't make as much noise or generate as much recoil as even a 20 gauge, either.

Stranger
Action movies aside, your first shot in a defense situation may not find you to be in a convenient position (as at a range) for shouldering and aiming your gun. There, I think, is the advantage of a pistol or a shortened shotgun. The disadvantage may be in getting off any subaequent shots, if need be.
Noise and flame are, IMO, good things.

[mangeorge]

Note that 18" is the minimum legal barrel length for a shotgun.
I know, Johnny. I was bemoaning that fact.
:(

[Unregistered Bull]

$600 and up I believe for surplus.

[mangeorge]

Just a FWIW, but a genuine surplus M1 will be very expensive. And they don't make a the Marlin anymore.

Another course of action for a simple to use firearm is the revolver. I got my folks a DAO (double action only) Ruger SP-101 (5 shot .357) for their RV travels. They keep .38s in it. They're usually around $350.
I will consider revolvers. I'm not sure I trust semi-auto pistols not to jam. My perceived downside of any solid round is penetration. Many gun owners scoff at the idea of nailing your neighbor, but it happens and it worries me.

[Stranger On A Train]

Action movies aside, your first shot in a defense situation may not find you to be in a convenient position (as at a range) for shouldering and aiming your gun. There, I think, is the advantage of a pistol or a shortened shotgun. The disadvantage may be in getting off any subaequent shots, if need be.If you are within grappling range you are way too close to be drawing and firing any firearm. This is the way that people get guns taken away and used against them, and many guns (such as double action revolvers) can be immobilized by a grab.

As Johnny L.A. indicated, the minimum barrel length with shotguns is 18" (manufacturers provide them at 18.5" due to ambiguities in ATF regulations) and there are limitations on the overall length that vary from state to state. I'm going to maintain the assertion that it is better to leave the standard stock in place for the afformentioned reasons.


Noise and flame are, IMO, good things.Er, not so much. The flash and blast affect you as much as they do your opponents, and within a confined area the blast of a shotgun or magnum pistol will likely affect hearing loss of all occupying parties.


I will consider revolvers. I'm not sure I trust semi-auto pistols not to jam. My perceived downside of any solid round is penetration. Many gun owners scoff at the idea of nailing your neighbor, but it happens and it worries me.Modern autoloaders using quality ammunition rarely have serious problems with jamming, as long as they are handled correctly, i.e. not limp-wristed or fired in some contorted pose. I've seen Glocks and Sigs go hundreds of rounds without a single jam. And clearing a feed or ejection jam on an autoloaders is a simple matter of the tap-rack-bang drill. OTOH, the mechanism on a revolver is exposed, sensitive to grit, and easily damaged or misaligned.

You are wise to be concerned about overpenetration, and a shotgun is ideal for controlling that, but modern major power hollowpoint pistol ammunition can be relied upon to expand and stop within the body in a center-of-mass hit.

I guess the M1 Carbine has gotten scarce: backwayback, it was considered junk by collectors looking for Garands and Krags. Too bad to hear of the demise of the Camp Rifle--perhaps you can find one used--but another alternative is a lever action Winchester in .357 Mag, or the (rather pricey) Ruger 96/44 in .44 Mangum.

Just out of curiosity, where do you plan to be travelling that you have significant worries about defense? I'm not against gun ownership by any means, and defecation does most certainly happen, but for the most part I can't see being too worried about repeat shots, et cetera. My criteria are more along the lines of accessable, explainable (I don't want to have to explain to a NP Ranger what I was doing with an MP-5SD on Federal property), and having reasonable stopping potential and reliability. I've been in a couple of scrapes where having a weapon at hand was useful, but I've been fortuante enough not to have to actually discharge the gun, much less shoot anyone, to end the conflict. That is most typical of defensive use of firearms, and virtually any gun larger than a "handbag gun" will fill that role. Just a thought.

Stranger

[mangeorge]

I plan to go pretty much all over. I haven't done any research yet, but my initial impression is that some parts of the south can be somewhat combatitive. ;)
Seriously, I'm getting on in years and don't have the confidence in my abilities to "grapple" that I once did. I'm no stranger to scrapes. I've faced knives a couple of times and done well. But that requires physical strength and agility, which are waning for me. I'm not paranoid at all, just realistic.
I don't envision using any gun from a contorted or overly awkward position, but if I'm sitting on the couch or lying in bed, it seems that a pistol or shorter shotgun might be of some advantage. Maybe not. That's why I'm asking. Otherwise I'd have already bought that pretty Winchester.
As it is, I might decide the risk isn't worth the trouble and forget the whole thing. I do have my trusty Ruger 22 pistol. :eek:

[ExTank]

I will consider revolvers. I'm not sure I trust semi-auto pistols not to jam. My perceived downside of any solid round is penetration. Many gun owners scoff at the idea of nailing your neighbor, but it happens and it worries me.

:confused:

I've very rarely heard any "shooter" on The 'Dope fail to mention backfield in self-defense situations.

As far as having a "travel gun" goes, you're probably better off with a shotgun over a pistol for legal reasons; some states are kind of tetchy about civilians with handguns, and while you may never be pulled over and searched, you just might, and you don't want a simple search to turn into a Seizure & Forfeiture.

For "political" reasons, I'd also recommend an unmodified, wood-stock shotgun, and leave the damned plug in! Removing that plug isn't in-and-of-itself illegal in most states, but it is illegal for hunting purposes in more than it isn't, and "hunting purposes" is one of the benchmarks that may get you off the hook in the less-than-gun-friendly jurisdictions if John Law find's your shooter during a routine traffic stop, or random search. You may want to pick up some hunting literature just in case, in an CYA kinda thing.

Also be aware that a lot of state's have different legal standards for use of deadly force in self defense. Shooting the asshole busting through your RV's door at 2 AM in the morning may be fine and dandy in Texas, but it may get you tossed into the hoosgow for Attempted Murder somewhere else.

And don't write off the "Sweet 16"-gauge shotgun, either. More oomph than a 20-ga., w/o the punishing recoil of the 12-ga.

Finally, be aware that many of the best places to visit whilst being a "Travelling Wilbury" are various federal and state parks, most of which prohibit firearms. Period.

[CynicalGabe]

At the Boy Scout camp I work at, we have a Remington 870 that by my calculations, has had over 50,000 rounds put through it over the years. Never a single problem with it. But it has also been religiously cleaned after every use. We also have a Mossberg 500 (whatever the earlier Mossberg model was that was identical to the 500) that had has about 30,000 rounds fired, and is also still chugging along fine.

If I had to choose, I'd go with the Remington over the Mossberg just because of the wider array of accessories available for it.

[mangeorge]

ExTank, I most surely overstated the disregard of shooters for the background in defense situations. Mostly what I've heard, here and IRL, is understatement of that potential. Saying that the likelyhood was low, etc. Even that attitude wasn't so pervasive as I might have implied.

[Mr. Krebbs]

I have owned a Winchester 1300 and a Mossberg 500. I sold the former, but kept the Mossy. This Mossberg was purchased used for $125 and while it isn't pretty, it is perfectly reliable. Much more so than my Winchester, which had a tendency to crimp the metal lip of the shells and thus made extraction difficult (note that this problem came about only after a couple years or so of fairly heavy abuse).

I prefer the Mossberg over an 870 due to the position of the slide release. I can depress it with my middle finger without having to remove my index finger from the trigger guard.

As for defensive ammunition, I use Federal #1 buck, as recommended here. (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm)

Remington, Winchester and Mossberg all make a perfectly good defensive shotgun in my experience. Just treat a defensive firearm as though it is the only thing standing between you and death, because some day it may be.

[mangeorge]

Went back to Big5 today and asked the clerk (manager, actually) if they had anything in 20ga in any of the three short-barreled guns on display. She went to look and returned with a Mossberg model 50178, which has both a 18 1/2 in. and a 26 in. barrel.
I liked it, so I asked her the price, and she said I could lay it away because it was slated to go on sale soon for $229 (stickered @ $299). She was so nice and helpful, and I like the gun, so I said ok. As she started to fill out the layaway form (they were extrremely busy), she asked would I be willing to pay the sale price today and save her the additional paperwork. Cool, say's me.
I pick it up on the 19th.
Anybody wanna buy a 26" 20ga barrel? ;)
Thanks, all. I'll be checking out the suggested mods above.

[Stranger On A Train]

Anybody wanna buy a 26" 20ga barrel? ;)
Thanks, all. I'll be checking out the suggested mods above.Keep it. You never know when you might want to try a hand at shooting trap and skeet.

Stranger

[mangeorge]

Keep it. You never know when you might want to try a hand at shooting trap and skeet.

Stranger
Yeah, I was kidding. I shot some skeet off the fantail when in the USN. The gunner's mate said I had a good "natural point". Something like that, anyway.
Are skeet and trap the same thing?

[mangeorge]

I have owned a Winchester 1300 and a Mossberg 500. I sold the former, but kept the Mossy. This Mossberg was purchased used for $125 and while it isn't pretty, it is perfectly reliable. Much more so than my Winchester, which had a tendency to crimp the metal lip of the shells and thus made extraction difficult (note that this problem came about only after a couple years or so of fairly heavy abuse).

I prefer the Mossberg over an 870 due to the position of the slide release. I can depress it with my middle finger without having to remove my index finger from the trigger guard.

As for defensive ammunition, I use Federal #1 buck, as recommended here. (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm)

Remington, Winchester and Mossberg all make a perfectly good defensive shotgun in my experience. Just treat a defensive firearm as though it is the only thing standing between you and death, because some day it may be.
Thanks for the link. A lot of good info there.

[bump]

Yeah, I was kidding. I shot some skeet off the fantail when in the USN. The gunner's mate said I had a good "natural point". Something like that, anyway.
Are skeet and trap the same thing?

More or less- they're both games played by shooting clay pigeons, but they have different rules, shots, starting positions, etc... There's another similar game called "Sporting Clays" also.

[BF]

Yeah, I was kidding. I shot some skeet off the fantail when in the USN. The gunner's mate said I had a good "natural point". Something like that, anyway.
Are skeet and trap the same thing?No.
Trap is the oldest form, five shooters shoot five targets at five stations arranged in a semi-circle. The targets are thrown away from the shooters via an oscillating thrower, so you don't know which target aspect you will be shooting at.

Skeet, one to many shooters, one shooter at a time with 8 stations. Targets are thrown from one high house, and one low house. On most stations, you get a high house, low house, and then pair.

5-Stand. Five shooters at five stations, multiple targets from different throwers spread across the field. Depending on which station you're shooting, the target can have a completely different aspect when presented.

Sporting clays, the newest, invented by the Brits in the early 80's. Most closely represents hunting shots. 100 targets per event, with up to 15 stations per event. Commonly called golf with a shotgun, shooters go from station to station throughout the course, shooting anywhere from four to 10 shots per station. Targets include bouncing rabbits, high flying geese, darting doves, etc. Since most courses are in the woods, the trees and whatnot provide obstacles encountered in real hunts.

[Scumpup]

Do you have your heart set on a pump action? If not, I think you should consider an autoloader from Winchester, Remington, FN, or HK. They give up very little, if anything, in terms of reliability to a pump action. Where they are clearly superior is that, if you should have to use it in self-defense, it eliminates the risk of "short stroking" the action. Short stroking will give you a "click" when you expect and need a "bang."

[Stranger On A Train]

Do you have your heart set on a pump action? If not, I think you should consider an autoloader from Winchester, Remington, FN, or HK. They give up very little, if anything, in terms of reliability to a pump action. Where they are clearly superior is that, if you should have to use it in self-defense, it eliminates the risk of "short stroking" the action. Short stroking will give you a "click" when you expect and need a "bang."Er, the recoil-op shotguns are significantly more likely to jam or misfeed; the Remington 11-87, for instance, although an excellent gun, is quite sensitive to the load being fired. Gas operated actions are more reliable, provided they are kept clean, but come in at around $1000 and up.

"Short-stroking" a pump gun is a matter of poor training. There is no reason anyone with sufficient strength to fire a shotgun can't learn to correctly stroke it. Note that virtually all police departments and most security and military forces that use a shotgun opt for the pump operation due to its inherent reliability and insensitivity to ammunition.

Stranger

[Scumpup]

Er, the recoil-op shotguns are significantly more likely to jam or misfeed; the Remington 11-87, for instance, although an excellent gun, is quite sensitive to the load being fired. Gas operated actions are more reliable, provided they are kept clean, but come in at around $1000 and up.

"Short-stroking" a pump gun is a matter of poor training. There is no reason anyone with sufficient strength to fire a shotgun can't learn to correctly stroke it. Note that virtually all police departments and most security and military forces that use a shotgun opt for the pump operation due to its inherent reliability and insensitivity to ammunition.

Stranger

Keeping a shotgun clean is also a matter of training.
I get the distinct impression from the OP that mangeorge is interested in slef-defense rather than any extensive amount of recreational shooting. He also notes decreasing physical strength. All of this makes the decreased recoil and self-loading desirable. Many law enforcement agencies, including the one for which I sometimes work, are moving away from the pump actions for these reasons. It has also been noted and taken into account that pump actions may be difficult or impossible to cycle if the operator is injured.
In any case, an autoloader for self defense needs to be reliable with the chosen self defense ammo. If it will not reliably cycle everything from skeet loads to waterfowl loads to slugs, that is no more than a recreational inconvenience. Pump actions have served for over a century and they are still useful. They are not the only choice.

[Mr. Krebbs]

For anyone interested in a semi-auto shotgun (such as the ones Scumpup recommended), I have heard great things about the Saiga 12. Being a huge fan of the AKM, I am pretty interested in getting a hold of one of these shotguns. European American Armory is importing them.

Probably the best aspect of the Saiga 12 is that they're priced very reasonably. You can get them for around $500.

Here's a few links:

http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm (http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm) - This is a review. Note that if one orders from EAA Corp, he will probably only be able to purchase the sporterized version. After market accessories are available, however.

http://www.eaacorp.com - European American Armory's website. Unfortunately, the site is down at the moment, so I cannot link directly to the Saiga 12.

[Mr. Krebbs]

Eh. By "sporterized," I mean lacking the folding stock and pistol grip. Additionally, most of the EAA Saigas I've seen have wooden stocks rather than the evil, black synthetic ones.

[Crafter_Man]

A little story for ya.

My first shotgun was a 12 gage Browning BPS with solid walnut stock. I bought it brand new. It was beautiful. :)

And that was the problem... it was too nice. When I took it hunting or clay pigeon shooting I was always worried about scratching the stock, getting it wet or dirty, etc. I thought, "This shotgun is useless. I want something with utility. I want an ugly gun. I want something I can scratch up!"

So I sold it and bought a Mossberg 500 with synthetic stock. Best decision I ever made. :)

[silenus]

CM, I hear you! I did the same thing. (Well, almost. I sold a Marlin .45-70 and used the cash to buy a Mossberg.) My 500 has gone through hell in 3 states, and still gives perfect performance. The stock has scars, but they are honorable reminders of hunts gone by. :D

[butler1850]

A clean stock, without nicks, bangs, dents, and chips is the sign of someone who needs to:

Sell the damn gun, you've not used it enough.

or

Get some shells, and get out there! You've not shot all the "misses" out of the barrel yet!!!

[mangeorge]

No.
Trap is the oldest form, five shooters shoot five targets at five stations arranged in a semi-circle. The targets are thrown away from the shooters via an oscillating thrower, so you don't know which target aspect you will be shooting at.

Skeet, one to many shooters, one shooter at a time with 8 stations. Targets are thrown from one high house, and one low house. On most stations, you get a high house, low house, and then pair.

5-Stand. Five shooters at five stations, multiple targets from different throwers spread across the field. Depending on which station you're shooting, the target can have a completely different aspect when presented.

Sporting clays, the newest, invented by the Brits in the early 80's. Most closely represents hunting shots. 100 targets per event, with up to 15 stations per event. Commonly called golf with a shotgun, shooters go from station to station throughout the course, shooting anywhere from four to 10 shots per station. Targets include bouncing rabbits, high flying geese, darting doves, etc. Since most courses are in the woods, the trees and whatnot provide obstacles encountered in real hunts.
That last sounds like fun. I assume it's also done here in the US. Do they have a "blue collar" version, you think? I know those trap and skeet guys can get kinda snooty, with their $2500 guns and all.
Actually, I'd like just shooting at the clay, I think. What most would call "practice".
But first I gotta pick up my gun (10 days) and learn how to safely use it.

[BF]

HA!! You'll find snootiness in all the disciplines, but that's just life I guess. Here's a link to the NSCA (http://www.mynsca.com/). Plenty of good info there. As for a blue collar version, 5-stand is considered it. Most places a hundred targets with the puller's tip runs about $30-40. 25 targets at 5-stand run about $5-7. To influence your selection further, most 5-stand or sporting clays is shot with over/unders or autos, with Beretta, Franchi, and Benelli leading the way. Most of autos, without being tricked out, run about $600-800.

[mangeorge]

Went to the range today for the first time. They only have one target (paterning) position, at 30 yds, but that's ok. I forgot my spotter scope, so for the first 20 rounds I thought I was missing the whole thing. But at the first cease-fire I saw all these itty-bitty holes (and some larger buck shot holes) all over the target, which made me feel a lot better. I know what to take with me now. And I know how the gun feels (good) in action. I'm glad I picked the 20ga for this purpose. I'm confident it'll do the job.
I'm looking at the Hogue stock mentioned by Unregistered Bull. I have a Hogue on my Ruger Mark II, and I really like it. The stock, er, stock (sheesh) on this gun seems a little short, but it felt better the longer I shot.
So;
How does one measure for LOP (Length Of Pull) for a shotgun?

[BF]

Here's a good article. Pull measurement is made from the end of the recoil pad to the trigger. "That is going to fit 75 percent of the people. (http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/s/h_fea_02_fitting_shotgun_F&HN.html)

[Crafter_Man]

Congrats on the purchase!

Oh, and BTW: You should (obviously) clean the gun after shooting. Concentrate on the barrel and chamber, and make sure most (all?) metal parts have a light coating of oil to prevent rusting. About once a year or every-other year you'll want to do a more thorough cleaning, which means removing the trigger assembly, extractor, etc. But whatever you do, do not disassemble the trigger assembly.

[Kevbo]

Another Mossberg proponent here. I've had mine since I was old enough to hutnt with it, put severla thousand rounds through it.

Autos vs. pumps. Pump needs ever-so-slightly more training, then it becomes second nature. If you don't store it with a round in the chamber, an auto requires you to move one hand from the firing position to operate the charging lever, where the pump keeps your hand on the forestock.

Some will take issue with the concept of "warning" in a defensive situation. The sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round is an unmistakable message to a bad-guy that he is outgunned.

[Dag Otto]

Er, the recoil-op shotguns are significantly more likely to jam or misfeed; the Remington 11-87, for instance, although an excellent gun, is quite sensitive to the load being fired. Gas operated actions are more reliable, provided they are kept clean, but come in at around $1000 and up.


I hate to repond to a two week old post, but I want to point out that the Remington 11-87 is a gas operated gun. A recoil operated shotgun is less likely to jam or misfeed because there is no gas system to foul. I talked to a few shooters when I was selecting a shotgun, and ended up with a Benelli recoil operated gun. No jams or misfeeds yet, but I've only shot a few hundred rounds through it. One thing that did surprise me was the speed of the action. I can fire three shots faster than I ever though possible.

[Dag Otto]

Some will take issue with the concept of "warning" in a defensive situation. The sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round is an unmistakable message to a bad-guy that he is outgunned.

The issue isn't whether you want to let the guy know you are armed, the issue is going into a situation with a gun that is not ready to fire. It would be an unfortunate time to have a misfeed. The sound of an action jamming and the thud of the shotshell as it hits the floor is an unmistakable message to a bad-guy that you are outgunned.

[sewalk]

I guess I'll ring in here, too. The only reason to prefer either of the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 590 for personal defense is price. Both are absolutely outstanding. Try 'em both out to see if your hands fit one of them better.

Barrel length: Go for 18.25. You can get a federal stamp for a short-barrelled shotgun and legally own in most states. But since you want to retire in a motorhome, this could cause some bad juju with the law in some places. For home defense, where permissible, a 14 inch barrell is worth the extra $200.

Accessories: Don't worry about magazine capacity. As long as you're not dressed for the field and don't have a pair of Labs in the back of the truck, you're legal without a plug. Don't convert to a pistol grip. All that does is make a shotgun harder to aim. While precision sighting is unnecessary, sighting down the barrel and shooting is very hard to do without a shoulder stock. A moderate combat-cut stock is OK but don't go overboard; the reason they're cut short is to fit body armor more than to shorten the weapon. A mounted flashlight is not a bad option. That's probably the only time you want something moderately undependable on your personal defense weapon. When it does work, it's undeniably awesome and when it doesn't, no matter, the weapon is still 100% effective. A sling is a waste if you're not going on a 25 mile road march with your recon platoon. Magazine extensions are probably a waste of time.

Automatics: There are some very nice combat autos that are worth a look. Personally, my gaze stops on the Benelli M1. More than a bit pricey, though.

Pistol: I like the Glock 21. Concealability isn't great but it gives lots of firepower in a simple package and is very controlable, provided you don't have tiny hands. A S&W K-frame or L-frame revolver is awesome, too, in .357. I keep a round-butt 2.75" Model 65 handy at home. No safety and no need to remember to rack the slide. Just keep pulling the trigger until it starts to click. Two more months, though, until I have enough saved to buy a ported Glock 21. Throw in a couple of 13 round magazines and I'm ready for anything. I am also very fond of the M1911A1. Not for the uninitiated. Lots of training needed for safe carry.

[sewalk]

One other thing: the load. I personally prefer my handloaded #8 magnums for home defense. overpenetration is less of a problem. At any home defense range (>10m), though, any thing from 000 to #12 is plenty lethal.