Atkins is stupid.

[Campion]

I went to dinner tonight with a friend who is on the Atkins diet. Because she's put a limit on how long she's going to do this, and because she's the first to agree that Atkins is stupid, I'm not going to tell her daily how stupid Atkins is. She's aware it's stupid, and that it's messing up her body (you really don't want to know about the number two issues, which I have now heard aaaaalllll about). But because she's only doing it for a month, it's not worth getting worked up over.

So -- dinner. Those who've been following the threads will be pleased to know that there were no old people in the restaurant tonight. ;) But I digress.

Atkins is stupid. We went for sushi, on the theory that there would be plenty of protein for her. But, unfortunately, we got the World's Worst Service, which included:
putting "Krab" on the vegetarian salad;
bringing rice to the Atkinser;
suggesting tempura when asked, what can we get that has no breading or anything?

As dinner went on, Little Miss Atkins got increasingly upset. But my dinner was good, and I'm normally the difficult one, so there's proof: Atkins is stupid.

And bonus floor show: a woman shot up her insulin at the next table over. Yes, I hang at classy joints.

[Stark Raven Mad]

I ketoed down from 11% to 7% with a CKD. I'm never going to do it again, but only because the carb deprivation made me so grumpy. What's so stupid about it?

[Campion]

I'm sure the smarter people will come along and give science words for it, but Atkins fools your body into thinking that it is starving, so you burn off reserves. It isn't a balanced, healthy diet (no fruit, few vegetables), and it backs up the plumbing something fierce. Yes, it can give you short term losses, but who wants bad breath?

Oh, and you can't even drink. What the hell kind of diet is that, where you can't drink?

[SkipMagic]

I think this is best-served (low carbs and all) in the Pit.

- SkipMagic

[Avenger]

And bonus floor show: a woman shot up her insulin at the next table over. Yes, I hang at classy joints.

Oh how inconsiderate of her.

Next thing we'll have asthmatics using inhalers in public and people taking their heart medicine right there in the street.

[supervenusfreak]

I'm sure the smarter people will come along and give science words for it, but Atkins fools your body into thinking that it is starving, so you burn off reserves. It isn't a balanced, healthy diet (no fruit, few vegetables), and it backs up the plumbing something fierce. Yes, it can give you short term losses, but who wants bad breath?

Oh, and you can't even drink. What the hell kind of diet is that, where you can't drink?


I do Atkins and eat plenty of veggies. Trust me on that. Berries too. I just try to avoid starches and sugars when I can. Now pass me my rum and diet coke.

[Darkhold]

Oh how inconsiderate of her.

Next thing we'll have asthmatics using inhalers in public and people taking their heart medicine right there in the street.actually I'm insulin dependant and I always check with friends and coworkers if it's ok that I shoot up around them. In any public place what-so-ever I use a stall in the restroom. It's just curtsey.

[WeRSauron]

And bonus floor show: a woman shot up her insulin at the next table over. Yes, I hang at classy joints.

I am diabetic. I test my blood sugar and inject insulin right at the table. People hardly notice.

Sometimes, when a friend wants to watch me do this and I say it's fine if they do, it gets done so fast and discreetly that they miss it: I have to deliberately tell them what I am doing if they are to see it.

Where would you have us check our blood sugar and inject insulin? Some of us have to do this at every meal, right before every meal. (I use Humalog, so unlike Humilin R I have to shoot right before eating and cannot get away with shooting an hour or half an hour before. Plus I shoot based on what I am going to eat.)

Please do not suggest bathrooms. Sometimes bathrooms are so filthy. And I have had to experience the very unpleasant occurence of irate customers knocking on the bathroom door while I am doing my stuff.

I totally second what Avenger said.

WRS

[Khan]

Yeah, my ex was on Atkins, and she could eat melon and berries at least. Who knows, perhaps she wasn't doing it right?

Still it was a massive pain in the ass. That is to say, I wouldn't have handled those restrictions well if I'd tried it myself. I tend to be a bit indiscriminate with my eating habits.

To the point, however, you'd like a more detailed explanation, Campion?

By depriving the body of carbohydrates, at the very least the Atkins diet fucks with the citric acid cycle of the mitochondrion, or the mechanism by which the body replenishes ATP (adenosine triphosphate; breaking off the phosphate groups = energy), the so-called "energy currency" of cells.

There are two compounds that are very important in the intial steps of the citric acid, or Krebs cycle: pyruvate and acetyl coenzyme A. The former is derived from sugars, the latter from fat. By depriving the body of carbohydrates, the mechanism by which we produce pyruvate is interrupted, and as such we have to turn to other sources.

There is a means by which we can metabolize fats and/or acetyl coA such that we can produce or substitute for pyruvate (I'm not sure if we can produce pyruvate straight up or just synthesize a suitable substitute; it's been a while since I took biochem). Whatever the case, since we can't get our pyruvate from carbs, we get it from fats and thus dip into our excess weight to get what we need, hence the alleged effectiveness of the Atkins diet.

However, one of the byproducts of this metabolic detour is the production of acetone, hence the aforementioned bad breath. Based on the offhand comment of a chemistry professor three years ago, this condition (ketosis) is also a product of diabetes, but it was an aside and he didn't go into it in detail.

Personally, the very mention of Atkins actually makes me a bit angry. First, overhype by the media puts me into the killzone. Second, there are better ways than this bullshit to lose weight. Eat your vegetables, exercise, and quit looking for quick fixes you ketosis-addled bastards. I'd rather be healthy with a balanced diet than fuck with my metabolism to lose a few pounds. Third, Hi, Opal.

Hot damn.

[zagloba]

I ketoed down from 11% to 7% with a CKD. I'm never going to do it again, but only because the carb deprivation made me so grumpy. What's so stupid about it?
Could you explain that again, but in English?

[Stark Raven Mad]

I didn' use it as a quick fix. It's simply one of the more efficient ways to get rid of the fat without losing too much muscle mass, but, as I said, the carb-deprivation made me a rather difficult person to be around.

zagloba, 'ketogenic' is usually the word used to describe high-fat diets designed to put the body into a state where ketones are produced and consumed over other sources of energy. 11%-7% refers to percent bodyfat. CKD stands for cyclical ketogenic diet (http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/training-on-ketogenic-diet.htm).

Fruit is essential on any kind of diet. Liver needs glycogen from fructose to convert T4 to T3, without which your dieting and exercise is basically useless.

Also, Khan, I'm not familar with what exactly Atkins prescribes, but all the variations on the ketogenic diet that I know of have some sort of scheduled refeeding (or, colloquially, 'carb-loading') period, in which large amounts of carbs are consumed to replenish muscle glycogen. If you're not a serious athlete, a little less ATP in the system isn't going to be too noticeable.

[Khan]

Also, Khan, I'm not familar with what exactly Atkins prescribes, but all the variations on the ketogenic diet that I know of have some sort of scheduled refeeding (or, colloquially, 'carb-loading') period, in which large amounts of carbs are consumed to replenish muscle glycogen. If you're not a serious athlete, a little less ATP in the system isn't going to be too noticeable.

Well, I can't speak for the relative amounts of ATP produced under the various dietary regimes. I only know that one's metabolism turns to fats to produce what it normally gets from sugars.

And I apologize for the "quick fix" comment. From what I know of the Atkins diet, it's certainly not quick in the sense that one can expect to get anything remotely resembling immediate results.

However, based on what I know about biochemistry and from experience with diet and exercise, I find myself to be wary of Atkins. I've seen people get results from it, but it still strikes me as a fad and the attention it got in the media filled me with bile. It's balancing the diet that matters, not cutting out some magical ingredient like fat or carbs.

Then there's the matter of my ex subsisting on lettuce, turkey slices from the sandwich bar, and cottage cheese. Whether or not that's Atkins I don't know, but it's bringing back some memories that make me twitch in frustration. Objective? Hells no, but it's a part of my negative association with that stuff.:p

[Campion]

Oh how inconsiderate of her.

Next thing we'll have asthmatics using inhalers in public and people taking their heart medicine right there in the street.
You're right. How thoughtless of me. Because there is no qualitative difference between a person pulling out a needle, sticking it into her arm, wiping off the blood with her fingers, and then picking up an appetizer; and someone using an inhaler or taking a pill. Nope, no difference whatsoever. Consider me chastened.I am diabetic. I test my blood sugar and inject insulin right at the table. People hardly notice.Well, if you're a blowsy middle-aged woman in a pink spandex tee who had sushi last night, people noticed.

Look, I get that it's more convenient for you, and thumbs up for asking those at your table if they mind if you shoot up; I also get that the people around you aren't your friends and you don't give a flying firetruck whether they want to see your needle action. I don't want to see it, I think it's unsanitary, and I wish that you had a better alternative than to shoot up at a table, then wipe your arm with your bare fingers. Darkhold, I salute you as does, I suspect, Miss Manners.

As for Atkins, I agree that you can have melon or berries (as long as you're not allergic to them, that is) and some drinks are carb-free (but again require that you not be allergic). Bottom line stands: it isn't a healthy, balanced diet, it can't be maintained for a long period without seriously compromising your health, and it masks problems rather than fixes them.

I'll note for the record that no one disputes that it also causes plumbing problems.

[Mr. Slant]

SNIP
I'll note for the record that no one disputes that it also causes plumbing problems.

I stopped doing Atkins a year or so ago, because it tripled my freaking grocery bill.
Protein is $$$$$$$$.
Anyway, I will remark that Atkins didn't change my plumbing performance. Did your friend read the book and follow EVERYTHING, including the 64 OZ of water per day and metamucil (or equivalent) tablets?

[smiling bandit]

Bottom line stands: it isn't a healthy, balanced diet, it can't be maintained for a long period without seriously compromising your health, and it masks problems rather than fixes them.

It seems to work quite well for quite a few people. If they're healthy, it's presumably good for a reaosnable portion fo the human race. Which means you're being unreasonably prejudiced. If they can get all the nutrients they need, what objections can you possibly have?



putting "Krab" on the vegetarian salad;

What is thie 'Krab' you speak of?



But my dinner was good, and I'm normally the difficult one, so there's proof: Atkins is stupid.

Huh? The wait staff was wading at the shallow end of the intelligence pool, so you're on a good diet?

There's a lot of silly ideas about the Atkin's diet out there, and I'd be willing to bet that at least 2/3's of the people supposedly following it aren't. They're just using it as an excuse to wolf down burgers by the cartload, without actually taking a look at the diet itself.

[Ferret Herder]

What is thie 'Krab' you speak of?

I'm assuming it's fake crab meat, which isn't really fake meat per se, but is made out of some kind of fish. Therefore unsuitable for most vegetarians.

[Zulema]

Most people who I know are on Atkins just stay on the induction phase plan forever. You're not supposed to stay on that part for very long. If they would read the whole book they would be adding more vegetables to their diet.

If people would just reduce sugars and flour in their diets they would see similar results without getting so extreme.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Wow! Sorry to sidetrack the discussion about whether "Atkins is stupid," but I am shocked that you were troubled by the woman "shooting up" her insulin. My son is diabetic, and I have never thought twice about whether I was bothering anyone by testing his blood sugar and giving him his insulin shot. And you know what - I'm not going to start worrying about it. I think that anyone who would complain about it rather than simply looking away is a fucking moron and a selfish twat. If you can't for one second put yourself in the shoes of someone whose entire life is dominated by a requirement that they be aware of the schedule of their food intake, the amount of foods they eat, the amount of exercise, having the materials on hand that they need to check their blood sugars and give themselves their multiple daily injections, I am not at all bothered by your momentary discomfort. Nor will I ever think of shuttling my child off to the diabetes section to spare you. Giving injections is a quiet process. We don't make an announcement. You don't need to look at the FUCKING SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD necessary to test blood sugars. You don't need to watch as injections are given.

For good measure, one last heaping helping of FUCK YOU to any selfish cunt who was ever nosy enough to be troubled by someone else's chronic and life threatening disease.

[Campion]

It seems to work quite well for quite a few people. If they're healthy, it's presumably good for a reaosnable portion fo the human race. Which means you're being unreasonably prejudiced. If they can get all the nutrients they need, what objections can you possibly have?No, my "prejudice" is actually a bias, and it has a reasonable basis in fact. If you mean that, anecdotally, you know some people who have followed Atkins and not died, and so it's "presumably good," you and I have definitional problems.
Huh? The wait staff was wading at the shallow end of the intelligence pool, so you're on a good diet?Not sure what you mean here; all I meant was, despite the difficulties, my meal was fine.There's a lot of silly ideas about the Atkin's diet out there, and I'd be willing to bet that at least 2/3's of the people supposedly following it aren't. They're just using it as an excuse to wolf down burgers by the cartload, without actually taking a look at the diet itself.Agreed.
For good measure, one last heaping helping of FUCK YOU to any selfish cunt who was ever nosy enough to be troubled by someone else's chronic and life threatening disease.Wow. Overreact much? Focus, please. I am not troubled by her "chronic and life threatening disease." I am sorry that she is diabetic, and I recognize that, there but for the grace of god go I.

What I am troubled by is the unsanitary method by which she chose to deal with her illness (note that I am assuming it was insulin she shot up; I did not ask her), and the fact that she chose to do it in public. There are certain things that I still think should not be done in public, shooting up being one of them. If that makes me somehow uncivilized, so be it.

But to respond directly to you: since when am I not entitled to my opinion? Since when am I not permitted to express my displeasure at the coarsening of public activity and civility? It's now wrong for me to believe that certain things should not be done in public? If I see someone doing something unsanitary/disgusting/uncivil, I am only permitted to think, "ewww," but I am not permitted to share that thought with anyone?

Incidentally, your assumption that I didn't look away once I realized what was going on is not only baseless but irrelevant.

Hentor, you have issues, and it appears I stepped right on one, and for that, I'm sorry. I am not sorry, however, for having an opinion, and despite your thoughtful, articulate and well-crafted post, it has not altered my opinion one whit. What I saw was icky and unsanitary, and I didn't like it.

[x-ray vision]

No one is troubled with someone having a chronic and life threatening disease Hentor the Barbarian. They're troubled with someone not having enough couth to step away from the table to inject their self.


Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian
I am not at all bothered by your momentary discomfort.
Of course not. No one elses comfort matters but yours and your son's.

[BiblioCat]

No, my "prejudice" is actually a bias, and it has a reasonable basis in fact. If you mean that, anecdotally, you know some people who have followed Atkins and not died, and so it's "presumably good," you and I have definitional problems.
:confused: Not sure what you mean here. I follow Atkins, and I haven't died (yet). I lost about 80 pounds on it, too. I eat plenty of vegetables and fruit, and never have any plumbing problems.

You're new here, so I'll cut you a break. Do a search on "Atkins" and "carbs" and find some of the older threads about it. There have been lots of threads in the last year or two.
If you're following it correctly, it can be a healthy way to eat - you just cut out excess sugar and white carbs, like potatoes and rice and pasta. You are supposed to eat lots of veggies on Atkins - anyone who thinks veggies are forbidden on Atkins doesn't know what they're talking about.
It's not all meat and cheese and fried eggs. :rolleyes: Try reading the book and actually learning something about it before trashing it out of hand.

[Campion]

If we went to court, and I sought a declaratory judgment that the Atkins diet is not a balanced diet for long-term weight control and health, you would trot out your experts, and I would trot out mine. Each would testify: yours would say, done correctly, Atkins can be healthy; mine would say, done correctly, Atkins causes problems X, Y and Z and is therefore not as healthy as a balanced diet. Maybe you would win. Maybe I would win. In the threads you reference, I don't think there's a clear winner. Some people believe it's good, some don't. I fall into the latter category.

Bottom line, Atkins worked for you; congratulations on your successful weight loss -- that's an incredible accomplishment that took a lot of fortitude and dedication on your part. I still think Atkins is stupid.

I think the only clear winner in this thread is SkipMagic, who saw the trainwreck coming and moved this to the Pit. Anyway, happy mother's day, all; I'm off to wish the mater well.

[smiling bandit]

I still think Atkins is stupid.

So, in other words, despite the fact that it works very well for some people, you're saying it's stupid. Different people just don't like or deal well different diets or plans. Therefore, by your logic, they're all stupid. Aside from which, your basic tenet seems to be in doubt here.


Not sure what you mean here; all I meant was, despite the difficulties, my meal was fine.

Yes, but you somehow connected this to say that Atkins is stupid. Re:

But my dinner was good, and I'm normally the difficult one, so there's proof: Atkins is stupid.

I still don't get your logic here.


I'm assuming it's fake crab meat, which isn't really fake meat per se, but is made out of some kind of fish.

Sounds awful.

[istara]

Atkins was not originally designed for normal people wanting to lose a few pounds.

Read the book. It was designed for long-term, morbidly obese, pre-diabetic and diabetic heart patients whose only other options were imminent death. People who because of their insulin problems literally could not lose weight, and who - due to their vast obesity and heart condition - could barely walk, let alone exercise.

It can and is used by less obese people. I've tried it (short term) and it does work. But I've always been aware it is not designed for normal, healthy people that are slightly overweight.

The more I read about healthy-carbing and glycaemic index aware diets, the more sensible I think they are compared to conventional, "1000 calories per day" ultra-low fat eating plans. The legacy of Atkins is that the wider world is starting to realise that sugar and refined white flour - not specifically fat - is our biggest health threat. The statistics are quite clear: it is sugar (specifically high fructose corn syrup) consumption that has lead to soaring obesity; there has been no equivalent hike in lipids in our diets.

Anyone wanting rapid results on a healthy and tasty diet should try South Beach: which is "good fats, good carbs" Olive oil and complex carbohydrates, not butter and white bread. After the first couple of weeks (which include masses of lean meat, fish and vegetables) you start re-introducing granary bread, brown rice, berries and so on. The meals are delicious. It is far lower fat than Atkins and you get the lower-carb diet benefits (beautifully regulated blood sugar) without going into ketosis.

But there is nothing wrong with Atkins per se. It's just how it is implemented, and interpreted, and by whom.

[Futile Gesture]

Atkins is stupid, not because it doesn't work (for some) but because it doesn't work as advertised.

It has nothing to do with your body going into 'starvation mode', it has nothing to do with ketosis. People lose weight on an Atkins diet for exactly the same reasons they'd lose weight on any properly applied diet. They eat less. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2004/atkins.shtml)

Basically high protein/no cabohydrate diets make you feel stuffed with less. They're also boring as hell. So you eat less.

And another thing, while I'm putting things straight, if 'Krab' is made out of fish it is not acceptable to any vegeterian. If you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian. (http://www.vegsoc.org/fish/fish2.html)

[Futile Gesture]

See, that post would have been so much better if I'd spelt carbohydrate and vegetarian correctly. :smack:

[supervenusfreak]

I'm assuming it's fake crab meat, which isn't really fake meat per se, but is made out of some kind of fish. Therefore unsuitable for most vegetarians.

That, plus there is added sugar in it for the taste. That is probably why she wouldn't eat it.

[Stranger On A Train]

I'm sure the smarter people will come along and give science words for it, but Atkins fools your body into thinking that it is starving, so you burn off reserves. It isn't a balanced, healthy diet (no fruit, few vegetables), and it backs up the plumbing something fierce. Yes, it can give you short term losses, but who wants bad breath?If Atkins isn't actually stupid, it is certainly Learning Disabled.

Khan has already correctly detailed the nutritional problems with Atkins quite adroitly (and anyone who doesn't think excess ketone production isn't harmful needs to read up on nutritional biochemistry). Campion claim is essentially correct; you starve your body by leaving it without the necessary nutrients and accessibly calories to correctly process the proteins and lipids that Atkins recommended, hence the weight loss.

Some other objections to Atkins and general high protein/low carb diets:

The afformentioned bad breath and bowel issues. Yes, you can take dietary supplements, as recommended by Atkins, but that just serves to highlight how incomplete even the correctly detailed Atkins diet is.
People on low-carb diets undergo emotional and hormonal changes that makes them unpleasant to deal with. While this is anecdotal, it is widely acknowledged.
Atkins and low-carb diets are not substainable over the long-term. Even if it was a non-harmful diet in the short term or by following diet cycling plans, the fact is that most people will not follow such a plan indefinitely. Good nutrition isn't just about planning to eat the "correct" proportions of nutrients but making sustainable habits that lead to making good dietary decisions.
While it isn't the fault of Atkins per say, the focus on increasing protein and fat, and reducing carbs has led the popular "science" media to emphasize these without the accompanying recommendations on fruits and veggies and nutritional supplements, the result being people wolfing down a double cheeseburger between two pieces of lettuce and patting themselves on the back for being "healthy". :rolleyes: While I was dive instructing (and despite the serious safety risks of high body fat in breathing compressed air the ranks of recreational divers are swelling--snark--with people who are dangerously obese) I'd routinely see people hitting the galley in the morning and eating plate after plate of eggs, bacon, sausage, ham, et cetera and decrying fruit and toast. Brilliant.
Most people I've seen on these diets, even those claiming to follow Atkins, simply do not eat the recommended amount of vegetables, or eat them in forms that are nutritionally vacuous. (No, deep fried zucchini is not healthy.) While eating the recommended amount of fruits and veggies per Atkins will probably give you enough carbs to be marginally healthy, skipping these and eating more protein puts you outside the realm of healthy nutrition.

The long-term effects of Atkins-style diets aren't known, but it is accuarially established that cultures which have diets high in meat and saturated fats tend to have more chronic health problems. On the other hand, the longevity-demonstrating cultures in many parts of Southeast Asia, for which the traditional cuisine has been primarily grains and starches, raw or lightly sauteed vegetables, and very modest amounts low-fat protein (primarily fish and fowl) have enjoyed good health, so those arguing that Atkins "works" probably need to level greater consideration on the long-term benefits and hazards of a high protein, high fat diet.

The problem with "carbs" isn't that they're bad but that people eat way to much simple sugars, spiking their insulin levels and enhancing their appetite beyond that which is nutritionally necessary. When you have a Coke with dinner, your body thinks it's hit the jackpot (look, sugar!) and tells you to eat more, MORE, MORE!!!. When I stopped drinking sugar drinks and eating sweats, my appetite went way down, and even when I get cravings they're are the unmanagable "I must eat or I'll pass out now!"-style hunger. The trick of a healthy, sustainable diet isn't to control this amount of cholesterol or that reaction, or to cycle your glycolgen levels to match the phases of the moon or whatever, but to eat an amount of calories appropriate to your level of activity in a healthy proportion.

Worse yet is what I've come to term as "Atkins Assholism"; the obnoxious shits that turn on you and decry your (healthy) dietary choices because they don't conform to their idiotic understanding of nutrition. Now that all the bowling-ball paunches at work are on Atkins I can't hear enough about it when I eat a sandwich [i]with bread![/b], and all catering and restaurant meet-ups have to be someplace that serves high fat, high protein (hello, Pollo Loco, the home of grease-glazed chicken) which no possibility of running into any of those nasty carbohydrates. I don't go about spontaneously spouting off about the detriments of low-carb diets (other than to roll my eyes when a program manager who will remain anonymous peels and eats the cheese from his pizza 'cause he's on "The Atkins Diet"...yeah, you've read the literature, haven't you Big Boy?) so telling me that a perfectly healthy sandwich is bad generally makes me want to shove a 1lb brick of genuine lard down the complainant's gullet.

Oh, and you can't even drink. What the hell kind of diet is that, where you can't drink?I tell you what, Campion. Let's start a diet called the Whisky Diet; we'll get the backing of various distillers to promote it. It's something like this:
12 oz of Black Bush Irish Whisky/Maker's Mark/Johnny Walker Black
2 bags of Corn Nuts
8 oz of salted pretzels
1 gyro/burrito/medium frozen pizza, to be consumed immediately before going to bed
1 "Red-eye" consisting of tomato juice, Red Bull, 2 raw egg yolks, and a shot of Gold.
Repeat as necessary until weight reduction is achieved or liver function is zero. :D

I'm reluctant to weigh in on the needle issue but...look, we understand the dangerous nature of the malady here, but recognize that many people are queasy about needles and others become nauseous, to the point of passing out, at the sight of blood. Due to concerns about blood-bourne pathogens having unbarriered blood in a dining area may actually be in violation of health regulations and the restaurant in question could be subject to fines and liability, not to mention the potential health risk should the blood somehow get splattered (and from Campion's description the injectee in question doesn't seem to have followed hygenic procedures.) Certainly, you may offend or disgust clientele who will not return to the restaurant in question; I know I'd certainly be reluctant to do so. (And hey, Campion which place was this, anyway? ;) )

If not for consideration of your fellow dinners, at least demonstrate some awareness of your host and their need to keep a clean and appealing dining environment, and if the bathroom is too dirty to shoot up then ask your server if there is someplace else--the manager's office or somesuch--where you can shoot in relative privacy. I suspect most restaurants, McDonald's excluded, would much rather provide this minimal amount of consideration rather than to have someone injecting themselves in front of other customers.

Stranger

[aruvqan]

I'm sure the smarter people will come along and give science words for it, but Atkins fools your body into thinking that it is starving, so you burn off reserves. It isn't a balanced, healthy diet (no fruit, few vegetables), and it backs up the plumbing something fierce. Yes, it can give you short term losses, but who wants bad breath?

Oh, and you can't even drink. What the hell kind of diet is that, where you can't drink?

to quote a tech buddie of mine, RTFM. Read the book. You can eat a lot of veggies on the diet...I get 10 servings of veggies a day, just the 'good' veggies that are lower carb and higher fiber [like spinach frex, I adore spinach=)] I eat pretty much anything that anybody else would eat, just avoiding refined starches, and starches like potato, corn, pea/legumes. Of course I *still* refuse to eat okra, eggplant, zucchini and spaghetti squash but since I never ate them before, I dont see a reason to eat them now=) IF you manage to actually follow the diet correctly, you don't have lack of fiber issues...I get more fiber in my diet than pretty much anybody who doesnt suppliment AND *juices* [if they ate the whole damned thing they would get the fiber they have to add back in, so why not just eat the freaking fruit to start with...]

And you can drink, in moderation.

RTFM.

[DrDeth]

Atkins is stupid, not because it doesn't work (for some) but because it doesn't work as advertised.

And another thing, while I'm putting things straight, if 'Krab' is made out of fish it is not acceptable to any vegeterian. If you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian. (http://www.vegsoc.org/fish/fish2.html)

Atkins works. Two Studies- in the NEJoM no less- have shown that it works better than a low fat diet for wieght loss- and with no bad effects on health. True- Atkins is hard to stay on- but so are other diets. Most dudes drop off any diet after 6 months- or even less. However- Campion- if your date was having bowel problems- that's her fault, not Atkins. Atkins reccomends plenty of salads- in fact one name for the diet is 'the steak and salad diet". And Futile Gesture- although I agree that 'eating less" is certainly part of the Atkins diet- neither study mentioned that Atkins "doesn't work as advertised."- that's your opinion, not the result of any study- AFAIK.

WARNING MILD HIJACK- And- the "vegsoc" doesn't get to define what "vegetarian" means for dudes who say they are vegetarians. In fact- no one does (well for some their church does, and that's the whole point). Commonly, for decades- someone eating fish as their only "meat" were indeed considered 'vegetarians" because of the religious definition of what was "meat"- which didn't include fish. There are those who are "vegetarians" for religious reasons, and their religions define fish as "not meat"- and thus for the purpose of their reason for being "vegetarian"- eating fish is fine.

Of course- one could say that: "vegetarians eat only vegetables by the scientific definition of vegetable"- but you'd be wrong. All Vegetarians eat food that is not vegetable in nature: Minerals (salt), Fungi (mushrooms), bacteria (cheese, tofu, etc), and (not on purpose but still whether you like it or not) insects, worms and other non-backbone possessing animals.

[BiblioCat]

Basically high protein/no cabohydrate diets make you feel stuffed with less. They're also boring as hell. So you eat less.
[/URL]Bolding mine... Sorry, but I can't let it go. Atkins is not a "no-carb" diet or way of eating. It's low-carb, yes, but certainly not "no-carb." You do consume carbohydrates on Atkins. That's another huge misconception about it; that somehow you don't eat any carbs at all. I mentioned that in another thread just like this one - a coworker constantly commented on how I was doing Atkins, and how she couldn't understand how I could get by eating "no carbs at all!" I had explained to her several times that that's not it at all, but she never did get it.

[ZipperJJ]

Oh, and you can't even drink. What the hell kind of diet is that, where you can't drink?

Dude, not drinking while trying to lose weight isn't an "invention" of Atkins. Google "Alcohol and weight loss" and you will find lots and lots of info on how alcohol has negative effects on metabolism.

And further, Atkins does NOT forbid alcohol in stages past the induction phase. they have suggestions (http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/12/8-440390.html) on how to manage (http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq/answers/CanIDrinkAlcoholNowThatIAmInOwl.html) alcohol (http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq/answers/HowManyCarbsDoesAlcoholContain.html) while following a low-carb plan.

Most liquors are carb-free. Beers are not, but there are good choices out there. Mixed drinks (including anything with non-diet tonic) have sugar in them. Is this news to you?

Is that the best you can come up with? "It makes your breath stink, you can't eat sushi, and you can't drink"? Why don't you go ahead and bash other popular diets and say stuff like "they can't have salad dressing" "they count every single fucking calorie" and "they can't drink."

Go complain about something you know about, don't just make shit up.

[DeadlyAccurate]

My husband was in the gym the other day getting a basic physical fitness test from one of the employees (insurance requirement by the gym, so if someone drops dead, they can say it's not their fault). The employee asked what sort of diet he was on, and he just gave a vague, "I'm cutting out sugars and stuff like that." Her response, "Oh, at least you're not on one of those low carb diets. Any diet where you can't eat broccoli isn't a good diet." He was so fed up at that point, he didn't even waste his breath correcting her.

That pisses me off, the misconceptions about the diet. In the last two weeks alone, we've eaten a three-pound bag of broccoli (total, between the two of us). That's only the broccoli; as vegetables go we're not even counting the red bell peppers, the lettuce, cucumbers, avocadoes, tomatoes, green beans, cabbage, cauliflower and probably some others I'm forgetting right now. We buy the majority of our salad vegetables at CostCo, in bulk.

I like the fact that I enjoy vegetables now, can't stand the taste of sugar, and no longer have those uncontrollable cravings for carb-laden foods that I used to have.

[Typo Negative]

Wow! Sorry to sidetrack the discussion about whether "Atkins is stupid," but I am shocked that you were troubled by the woman "shooting up" her insulin. .
I'm an insulin dependent diabetic.

Needles just give some folks the willies. I have learned to be very discreet.

[Lobsang]

Attempting low carb eating led to one very unpleasant day at work.

But then my adopted home is crap where food is concerned. The last time I had a curry that tasted good or bread that was fresh was when I went to my true home of England.

I'm losing weight through sheer lack of anything worth eating lots of.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Hentor, you have issues, and it appears I stepped right on one, and for that, I'm sorry. I am not sorry, however, for having an opinion, and despite your thoughtful, articulate and well-crafted post, it has not altered my opinion one whit. What I saw was icky and unsanitary, and I didn't like it.It's fine to have an opinion. My opinion of your opinion is that only a selfish fuck would maintain such an opinion. What is unsanitary about a person giving themself an injection? As long as they are disposing of the hypodermic needle appropriately, there's no problem.

As to my issues - well, I suppose I will always have an issue with some numbnuts butting into someone else's business and then overreacting to it.

x-ray vision, just where would you have us step to? How far from the table would be "couth" enough for you? As to your comment about my son's and my comfort - yeah, as long as we are not actively disrupting your day, you can shut the fuck up and look somewhere else.

But perhaps you should avoid looking at people who make you feel icky.

spooje, it's great that you're discreet. As I said, we make no announcement that we are about to managing my son's diabetes. We don't stand up on the table. I'll be goddamned however, if anyone is going to add to the difficulties that my little boy already faces because they feel "icky." Such folks are, well, pretty low in my book, and not much worth worrying about. Perhaps, campion, you should pony up the dough to go to nice restaurants where they don't let distasteful people in.

[brownie55]

<snip>

I'll note for the record that no one disputes that it also causes plumbing problems.
I do. I have never had "plumbing problems" with Atkins. It might be because there is a stick up your ass. Just a guess.

[CynicalGabe]

actually I'm insulin dependant and I always check with friends and coworkers if it's ok that I shoot up around them. In any public place what-so-ever I use a stall in the restroom. It's just curtsey.

You can inject the insulin and curtsey at the same time?? :eek:

;)

[wolf in second hand clothing]

Atkins mostly just tricks people into snacking less, since it's easy to pull out a bag of chips or a bagel, but most people are too lazy to grill up a steak for a snack.

[brownie55]

Fight some fucking ignorance today, all of you. Please understand the diet before you dismiss it in such an assinine fashion.

The more I read on this board, the more I see lazy preconceptions. It truly is sad. I expected better, but it really is more of the same. Pathetic.

[BabaBooey]

I've been consuming about 2500 calories a day on the atkins diet and have been losing fat. Off of atkins, there's no way I ate more than 1500 on a regular basis, and if I went over that it was from drinks, so I'm going to have to disagree with the "you're only losing weight because you're eating less" comments.

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

I'm an insulin dependent diabetic and have been since for-freakin'-ever. I "shoot up," as the OP so eloquently puts it, in public all the time. (I was pretty militant about it for a while, on account of having to keep all my diabetic activities hush-hush -- in high school, I had to eat all my snacks in the office because god forbid on of the other students might get jealous that I got to eat in class and they didn't. I resented having to miss class because of some issue that hadn't ever raised its head. Most of the teachers didn't mind, so that rule was quietly ignored.) It's possible to inject yourself in public discretely. The only time I go to the rest room to inject is if I'm wearing pantyhose or a dress or something prevents me from injecting through my pants or in the stomach. As long as you're not announcing, "I'M GOING TO SHOOT UP NOW!" to the entire restaurant, there's really no reason for anyone to notice. And if you do it properly, alcohol swabs and all, it's no more unsanitary than eating.

As for people feeling "icky" about diabetes, I can tell you that I've lost roommates and had people end friendships because I was diabetic and that was icky. By extension, I felt like I was icky since being a diabetic is as much a part of me as my eye color or my name. In short, I think that the momentary discomfort you are caused by seeing me inject myself with insulin is nothing compared to the lifetime of discomfort and inconvience that I already have. And I really don't care if it makes you pissy.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I'm an insulin dependent diabetic and have been since for-freakin'-ever. I "shoot up," as the OP so eloquently puts it, in public all the time. more good stuff edited out
Well said, Miss Purl. I and my daughter and 9most of) my diabetic patients stand with you!

[Queen Tonya]

Fight some fucking ignorance today, all of you. Please understand the diet before you dismiss it in such an assinine fashion.

The more I read on this board, the more I see lazy preconceptions. It truly is sad. I expected better, but it really is more of the same. Pathetic.


Aww, sugarpants, does your arm get tired when you paint with a brush that fucking wide? :rolleyes:

[beckwall]

As for people feeling "icky" about diabetes, I can tell you that I've lost roommates and had people end friendships because I was diabetic and that was icky. By extension, I felt like I was icky since being a diabetic is as much a part of me as my eye color or my name. In short, I think that the momentary discomfort you are caused by seeing me inject myself with insulin is nothing compared to the lifetime of discomfort and inconvience that I already have. And I really don't care if it makes you pissy.

I think most people would support you in your efforts to manage a debilitating disease. What I find offensive is other people calling someone "icky", but hey they are allowed to express their own opinion - sometimes it just validates how very ignorant and prejudicial they really are. It's always interesting when someone in the Pit inserts foot in mouth. God forbid one of the OP's friends (or even the OP themself) should come down with cancer or worse, seeing as they don't seem to be the most empathetic person around.

[Ferret Herder]

And another thing, while I'm putting things straight, if 'Krab' is made out of fish it is not acceptable to any vegeterian. If you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian. (http://www.vegsoc.org/fish/fish2.html)
Well, I happen to agree since I've been a strict ovo-lacto vegetarian for over a decade, but I qualified my statement since some people will self-identify as a vegetarian yet then go on to intentionally eat fish/chicken. I'm sure that's at least partially responsible for some people's confusion over what's acceptable for any given vegetarian to eat.

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

I think most people would support you in your efforts to manage a debilitating disease. What I find offensive is other people calling someone "icky", but hey they are allowed to express their own opinion - sometimes it just validates how very ignorant and prejudicial they really are. It's always interesting when someone in the Pit inserts foot in mouth. God forbid one of the OP's friends (or even the OP themself) should come down with cancer or worse, seeing as they don't seem to be the most empathetic person around.

Oh, most people do and don't care, since they'd much rather I was alive and not twitching on the floor, reeking like a brewery. Those who stare and say, "Is it really necessary that you do that? It's sooo disgusting!" I don't talk to much afterwards if they can't understand that it goes beyond necessary and into absolutely vital. Most of the people I know are fascinated with the whole injection rigamarole, and I feel almost bad that I'll be depriving them of it after I get a pump. Ah, c'est la vie. They'll have a robo-pancreas to be fascinated with.

The icky thing mostly hits home (hard) in grade/middle school. It wasn't so much discovering that 3rd graders thought the diabetes was gross, but that their parents (!!!) thought it was contagious and so subtly discouraged their children from playing with me. My mom freaked out, but it was my friend Lizzie (totally bad-ass for a 3rd grader), who disabused them of that idea. The first in a long line of awesome friends. Those who persist on calling diabetics icky well into adulthood are the same ones who tan themselves into another race, I've discovered.

Thanks, Qadgop. Solidarity now. Solidarity forever. :D

[Campion]

I was wrong. Let me be plain about what I am apologizing for, and where I believe I was mistaken.

To Miss Purl (and others who have taken the OP as a personal attack), if I have ever suggested in any fashion that I find you "icky," I apologize. That was not my intention and, in fact, I have always enjoyed your posts, Miss Purl, and find you the opposite of icky.

I wrote that I found the action taken by a particular person at a particular time to be "icky." I withdraw that word, and substitute "in poor taste." Because it is irrelevant in light of how this thread developed, I will not discuss precisely how the woman in the restaurant administered her insulin so as to bring it to people's attention, because the point is moot.

My position that this particular woman's actions were in poor taste, and that people should be more discreet when administering injections in public, however, has been mischaracterized by other posters as somehow being an attack on people with illnesses, or an attack on illnesses themselves, which it is not and never was.

This isn't an appropriate time to bring in anecdotes about living with illness, or people near me who have been diagnosed with this or that, because my personal experience is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. In short, I apologize to those I have inadvertantly offended with some carelessly chosen words. I do not find you icky if you have diabetes, nor do I find diabetes icky. Instead, I found a certain action taken by a certain person to be in poor taste, and that has been mischaracterized.

Second, I apologize for comments made about the Atkins diet. You are all correct that I have not read the book, and have instead relied on news reports and anecdotal evidence. Although I maintain that what I understood to be the "Atkins diet" is not an optimally healthy diet, I understand that reasonable minds differ on that point. Nevertheless, I withdraw what I said in the OP about the "Atkins diet," and replace it with "what my friend has characterized as the Atkins diet."

Having said that, there is one more thing. I am honestly surprised by the utter lack of civility that these topics have engendered in some people. To the extent that I have contributed to that, I apologize. This place has always seemed to be an environment where people could discuss even hot-button issues rationally. Because I think this thread has brought out the worst in some people (including, perhaps, myself), I apologize for raising issues that turned out to be personally offensive to so many people.

To those who have chosen to build straw men, rather than participate in an actual discussion, do what you will with this thread. It's not my issue anymore. I'm about to go start Stranger's Whisky Diet. ;)

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

I was wrong. Let me be plain about what I am apologizing for, and where I believe I was mistaken.

To Miss Purl (and others who have taken the OP as a personal attack), if I have ever suggested in any fashion that I find you "icky," I apologize. That was not my intention and, in fact, I have always enjoyed your posts, Miss Purl, and find you the opposite of icky.


Apology accepted, Campion, though it was hardly needed. I will admit that it's a hot-button topic with me as there's a lot of ignorance about diabetes out there and I've only recently learned to control my temper. I'll also admit that I had a low blood sugar early this morning that made me spontaneously vomit, so I'm not loving my now defunct Islets of Langerhans right now. Made it to the garbage can, thank god, but Capri Sun'd my bed and my writing journal. Grrr.

If I've offended you in anyway, please accept my apology. I do not mean to imply with my last post that you are in anyway connected with twittery little girls who look like leather gloves.

Also, at this point, icky has lost all meaning as a word.

[milroyj]

Needles just give some folks the willies. I have learned to be very discreet.

Thank you for having the courtesy to do so.

It's too bad Hentor, et al, can't be bothered to do the same.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Thank you for having the courtesy to do so.

It's too bad Hentor, et al, can't be bothered to do the same.Nope. Won't be troubling myself to slink off somewhere so my son can make sure he doesn't disgust anyone. Nope. I'd rather you have a moment of discomfort than he think that he has to be ashamed. Of course, I've already pointed out that we don't make a production number out of it. Nor do we hide it. Don't like it? Don't look. If you do look, remember that this is something my son, or whomever you are troubled by, has to live with forever, constantly. If you do that and you are still bothered by it, you aren't worth shit.

And gee, milroyj, I feel so bad to be disappointing you, of all people. Then again, I've already estimated what you're worth.

Campion, I could have come on less strong, and I regret that. However, your clarification does nothing for me. Apparently it is still in poor taste in your opinion for people to give themselves insulin injections. Believe me, it isn't their preference. It isn't a matter of taste.

[milroyj]

Apparently it is still in poor taste in your opinion for people to give themselves insulin injections. Believe me, it isn't their preference. It isn't a matter of taste.

It IS in extremely poor taste to take care of personal needs in public. And you are doing a disservice to your child by teaching him otherwise.

[x-ray vision]

Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian
Nope. I'd rather you have a moment of discomfort than he think that he has to be ashamed.

Apparently it is still in poor taste in your opinion for people to give themselves insulin injections.
I'm pretty sure these are the type of strawmen that Campion was referring to.

[DrDeth]

I was wrong. Let me be plain about what I am apologizing for, and where I believe I was mistaken.

)

It takes a big man to apologize and admit he's wrong. :cool: Thank you.

[WeRSauron]

It takes a big man to apologize and admit he's wrong. :cool: Thank you.

I also appreciate very much Campion's apology. And I am highly appreciative of QtM and his posse's solidarity. We shall overcome!

For the record, one of my best friends hates needs and whatnot. I try to shoot elsewhere, but fear doing so for two reasons:
1. the bathroom may be so dirty or so organized as to make it inconvient to properly test my blood sugar level and inject and whatnot, and
2. that someone will need to use the bathroom or stall while I'm doing my thing: it takes some time, and I hate it when someone's banging on the door when I'm inside trying to be discreet. If that happens to me once more, I swear I'm going to punch them in the face.

Either way, I'm doomed to offend/bother someone.

So, I simply do it at the table. I tell my friend what's coming up, and he looks away, looks down, or I put something to block his view. Most of the time he doesn't even notice. The only time someone might notice is when I'm quiet as I inject. I use a pen, so it's even more discreet. Vials and syringes and all can become a bit obvious, but not everyone can use pens.

I think it takes less effort to ignore fellow diners than for one to run around finding a suitable room within which to test, inject, etc. After all, my mother always taught me not to stare at people eating.

If I were having dinner with, say, Her Majesty The Queen or His Holiness the Pope, I might excuse myself for a moment. But otherwise I try to be discreet yet practicable.

Although, it amuses me that many people find the whole thing fascinating and interesting rather than disgusting. I have even had friends ask me to do it in front of them and explain what I'm doing. Those people are cool.

Anecdote: when I was newly diagnosed, I'd sometimes shoot at the table when we (my family and I) went out for dinner. When it came time to do what needed to be done, my mother would begin positioning menus and family members so that others couldn't see. This was not because others might find it yucky but because she didn't want people staring: she hardly thought this was a show for their amusement or curiosity.

WRS

[Scoundrel Swanswater]

It IS in extremely poor taste to take care of personal needs in public. And you are doing a disservice to your child by teaching him otherwise.
Milroy, you really are an asshole.
You are staring at people at another table and they should change their behavious?
Maybe you should keep your eyes to yourself.

I for one, have no problems with people injecting themselves in my company.
If I can't handle it, I'll fricking look away.
People with diabetes have enough to deal with, without pricks like Milroy bothering them.

[Scoundrel Swanswater]

By the way : what do you feel about breast-feeding?
Is that also a social no-no in your book?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I'm pretty sure these are the type of strawmen that Campion was referring to.And I'm pretty sure that you were the one who said that we should step away from the table. milroyj has added that we shouldn't take care of "personal" needs in public.

None of you have clearly recognized that you are nosing in on someone else's business that you shouldn't be fucking staring at in the first fucking place, and suggesting that we should go and hide ourselves somewhere else. This would almost inevitably lead a person, especially a child, to feel that they should be ashamed. No strawman there, dickhead. You're still expressing the attitude of a selfish and insensitive cunt who cannot for a moment weigh the difficulties of another person against their own delicate sensibilities.

[istara]

to quote a tech buddie of mine, RTFM. Read the book. You can eat a lot of veggies on the diet...I

[...]

RTFM.

A-fucking-men.

It amazes me that the correct information is out there, but 99% of low-carb/Atkins detractors are still: "oh it's SO unhealthy to eat no fruit and veg and so much fatty meat!"

[Futile Gesture]

And- the "vegsoc" doesn't get to define what "vegetarian" means for dudes who say they are vegetarians. Well that's exactly what they did in 1847. It's their word. They invented it, they get to define what it means.

Making up your own definition for yourself that's totally at odds with the original meaning is not only a con, but bound to annoy those who are.

[zagloba]

I am intrigued by your linguistic theories and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[DrDeth]

Well that's exactly what they did in 1847. It's their word. They invented it, they get to define what it means.

Making up your own definition for yourself that's totally at odds with the original meaning is not only a con, but bound to annoy those who are.

Umm- no, they don't. The Dictionary doesn't even get to do so, they only list usages. Do note that the root word dates back to ME, and before that to Latin. In fact, one of the great things about the English language is that you can, indeed, make "up your own definition for yourself", and if it passes into common usage, you are right. Note "d-oh" from Homer Simpson, now added to the Dictionary.

[BiblioCat]

The employee asked what sort of diet he was on, and he just gave a vague, "I'm cutting out sugars and stuff like that." Her response, "Oh, at least you're not on one of those low carb diets. Any diet where you can't eat broccoli isn't a good diet." He was so fed up at that point, he didn't even waste his breath correcting her.
I started doing the same thing. When people commented on my weight loss, at first I said I was doing Atkins, and some people thought it was cool, but others seemed to think I was going to drop dead at any minute from all the bacon and fried eggs they were just sure I was eating (and all the veggies they just knew I wasn't eating :rolleyes: ) I got lots of horrified looks and lots of, "Atkins is sooo bad for you! All that red meat! And no vegetables! Don't you worry about your health?"

I just gave up and started saying I was cutting out sugars and starches and eating mainly lean meats and veggies. Everyone was relieved. :smack:

[panache45]

Until about 2 years ago, I was way overweight, diabetic, with high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high triglycerides, the whole bit.

In early 2003, I bought Atkin's book, read it thoroughly, then put myself on the Induction Phase of the diet.

On day 2, my blood sugar normalized; not merely lower, but stable. After about a month, I saw my doctor (an endocrinologist). He was totally amazed at what he saw: not only weight loss and normal blood sugar, but normal blood pressure, and significantly lower cholesterol and triglycerides. I had already discontinued the insulin injections that I had previously been taking.

After the initial Induction Phase, I gradually started introducing more carbs into my diet, just as Atkins' book recommends. I went a little too far, my weight and blood sugar started to rise, and I cut back. The trick is to find your own level at which you are stable, give or take 5 pounds.

I eat lots of lean poultry and fish, not as much red meat as I had at first. I eat lots of veggies (the ones with low glycemic index), especially in chef salads. I eat a moderate amount of certain fruits, especially berries. And recently, I've started drinking a glass of red wine every night. I do take supplements, as advised by Atkins, and I exercise regularly (I had exercised previously, so that's not a factor).

And except for the initial 10 days, no plumbing problems.

Occasionally, I let myself cheat. I'm no saint, and don't intend to become one.

I have an aunt with basically the same health issues as myself. When she saw the results my dieting had produced, she decided to try it herself. She went out and bought all of Atkins' books, but never read any of them. She started eating tons of bacon cheeseburgers, with the bun, with fries, and with non-diet Coke. She thought the protein in the burgers would make her lose weight, counteracting all the carbs she was consuming. She gained weight and got sick.

It's amazing how many people "do Atkins" without educating themselves. And when their efforts backfire, they conclude that "Atkins is stupid."

[milroyj]

By the way : what do you feel about breast-feeding?
Is that also a social no-no in your book?

How do you feel about changing diapers in restaurants?

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

How do you feel about changing diapers in restaurants?
There's a world of difference between changing a diaper in a restaurant and giving an insulin injection. If you need to be told that the latter is less of a production, then you are beyond stupid. And if you can't understand that Hentor is showing his son (as my parents showed me) that diabetes is nothing to be ashamed of, then I'm astonished you're still breathing without outside guidance. If you are further unable to comprehend that finding another place to inject is not always possible or desirable, as WeRSauron* so neatly lays out, then I will have to assume that at some point you traded your brain for some shiny object -- possibly a shoehorn, the better to cram your foot in your mouth, though a decorative stick to shove up your ass for those festive occasions is also a distinct possibility. With either option, I hope the purchasers received their change; I'd hate for them to be overcharged on a faulty product.

panache45, Type II diabetes, right?

*Nice job, by the way, you Lord of the Rings, you Prince of Cats.

[ZipperJJ]

*applause* to panache45 :)

[x-ray vision]

Originally posted by Miss Purl McKnittington
There's a world of difference between changing a diaper in a restaurant and giving an insulin injection.
I think that was milroyj's point. Comparing insulin injection to breast feeding is a world of differeence just as insulin injections and diaper changing is.



Originally posted by Miss Purl McKnittington
And if you can't understand that Hentor is showing his son (as my parents showed me) that diabetes is nothing to be ashamed of, then I'm astonished you're still breathing without outside guidance.
We can't teach our children that diabetes is nothing to be ashamed of while also teaching them that some things are inappropriate at the dinner table?

[Scoundrel Swanswater]

Let's try a different analogy then : what about people who need to use inhalers?
Or breathing apparatus?
This is also a medical neccesity (I know misspelled), and might offend people too.
Should these people rush to the toilet too?

[Campion]

We can't teach our children that diabetes is nothing to be ashamed of while also teaching them that some things are inappropriate at the dinner table?
(I told myself I wouldn't do this but I apparently have no self-control.)

No, we cannot. We cannot teach our children that there are certain things that ought to be done discreetly, if at all, in public. We cannot admonish them when they blow their noses on their sleeves; or when they adjust their packages; or when they undertake any number of personal tasks that other people would rather not see.

No, we cannot do so, because we do not want to teach them that there are limits to public behavior. We do not want them to be ashamed of their snot, or their units. No, sir.

Indeed, it is our obligation as red-blooded to look away and wipe the vision from our eyes. Look away, I tell you. And never speak of it again.

And, frankly, I am astonished that you would suggest otherwise. How dare you, sir. How dare you.

People, seriously. Let it go. Those of you who live with this disease or whose children live with it, I applaud your efforts to teach your children that an illness is nothing to be ashamed of. We would all be better off if our children grew up loving who they were and happy about their lives. There is no dispute about that.

No one is suggesting that you should spirit your children away to a broom closet to administer an injection. All that's being said is that discretion is the key to anything: one can blow one's nose in public [i]discreetly; one can adjust one's package in public discreetly; and one can administer an injection discreetly. Failure to undertake these types of personal tasks discreetly while in public can lead to the criticism that one is uncouth.

Please note: discreetly is not code for "in a broom closet" or "in a restroom." It is code for "in such a manner so as not to draw unwarranted attention." I presume from the posts that everyone who injects is already doing it that way. So where's the beef? (No -- must stop -- no more Atkins discussion -- )

That is not a criticism of a disease, but of the method of dealing with a personal issue in public. Now, again, for the love of all that's holy, can we let this die?

[ouryL]

Hmm

On Atkins diet, which is a high protein diet.
Go to eat at a restaurant which serves food that is predominately, that is more than two-thirds, carbohydrate?
:wally

[aruvqan]

Hmm

On Atkins diet, which is a high protein diet.
Go to eat at a restaurant which serves food that is predominately, that is more than two-thirds, carbohydrate?
:wally

I have had very little problem ordering to suit my regime in a regular place to eat. If nothing else, I can enjoy a salad. Unlike what many peole believe, veggies ARE on a low carb regime after induction. If absolutely everything is covered with breading or sauces, well - it is ONE MEAL. I can give myself permission to eat and deal with the headache that results from it and not be guilty. I can even go to a friends wedding and have the balls to actually eat a piecce of WEDDING CAKE without guilt. I simply deal with it by decreasing the carbs a smidge until I am back on track, then I go back to my regular 50-65 carbs a day.

[DeadlyAccurate]

I feel a need to make a minor correction* to aruvqan's post. Veggies are on a low carb regime during induction, too.


*You guys have turned me into a pedant.

[zweisamkeit]

I have had very little problem ordering to suit my regime in a regular place to eat. If nothing else, I can enjoy a salad. Unlike what many peole believe, veggies ARE on a low carb regime after induction. If absolutely everything is covered with breading or sauces, well - it is ONE MEAL. I can give myself permission to eat and deal with the headache that results from it and not be guilty. I can even go to a friends wedding and have the balls to actually eat a piecce of WEDDING CAKE without guilt. I simply deal with it by decreasing the carbs a smidge until I am back on track, then I go back to my regular 50-65 carbs a day.


Yeah, but the thing that makes sushi, well, sushi, is white sushi rice. That's a big no no on reduction (and something to only consume sparingly after that). I wouldn't say that, if you went to a Joe Blow's Cafe and it was all breaded or what have you, that you were stupid if you cheated. But deliberately going to a sushi place seems completely counter to the diet.

It'd be like going to the Cheesecake Factory if you were on a low fat diet.

[DrDeth]

Yeah, but the thing that makes sushi, well, sushi, is white sushi rice. That's a big no no on reduction (and something to only consume sparingly after that). I wouldn't say that, if you went to a Joe Blow's Cafe and it was all breaded or what have you, that you were stupid if you cheated. But deliberately going to a sushi place seems completely counter to the diet.

It'd be like going to the Cheesecake Factory if you were on a low fat diet.

But- sashimi is generally high protein, 0 carb.

[Futile Gesture]

Umm- no, they don't. The Dictionary doesn't even get to do so, they only list usages. Do note that the root word dates back to ME, and before that to Latin. In fact, one of the great things about the English language is that you can, indeed, make "up your own definition for yourself", and if it passes into common usage, you are right. Note "d-oh" from Homer Simpson, now added to the Dictionary.
Cool. I'm aiming on being one of those types of Christians who doesn't believe a word of this Jesus guy. Also fancy being a Nobel prize winner who hasn't won anything and a Democrat who always votes Republican. Anyone who think my new definitions are dumb and contradictory, particularly Christians, Nobel prize winners or Democrats; tough.

The big difference about your stance here, which I would normally agree with, is sometimes there are people who have a much more invested in a word than those who might commonly get it wrong. The USSR, for instance, was commonly called Russia. Wrong or right? Ask those in the Soviet republics and you'll find they have a very definite idea about that. It's a matter of opinion, who's right? Personally I'd side with those who were the ones getting called Russian, they should have more of a say.

Ask Christians how they'd feel about people who don't believe in Jesus being a type of Christian. Ask Democrats how they'd feel being confused with the type that votes Republican. Ask vegetarians about being given fish because the "commonly known" type eats that.

Who's right in each case?

[Hijack over]

[Fear Itself]

The more I read on this board, the more I see lazy preconceptions. It truly is sad. I expected better, but it really is more of the same. Pathetic.It is taking longer than we thought.