Suicide Bombers in Iraq - Who are they?

[shelbo]

I can see a certain, perverted logic in a Palestinan suicide bomber in Israel -- decades of occupation/opression by a people that have been made out as the "other", a separate evil race, etc., which is the cause of all of the poverty and degredation that affects you and your family. Brutal army tactics kill or injure friends and family. All leading to an anxious desperation/desire to strike out. No hope for the future, I might as well kill myself and take some of the infidel with me, leaving me a martyr and delivering me to paradise.

I don't agree with it, but I can see the thinking behind the decision.

In Iraq, however, I don't see it. No decades of opression. No "separate evil race" (they seem to mostly be killing Iraqi civilians these days). I can (sort of) understand a guerilla war/insurgency against the occupation forces. I can (sort of) understand IEDs aimed at the same occupation forces.

But suicide? Killing mostly other poor Iraqis? WTF?

[Lemur866]

Could be that most of the suicide bombers in Iraq aren't Iraqis, instead they are foreigners who came to Iraq to fight the infidel crusaders. What they think they are doing when they drive explosive-laden cars into marketplaces and mosques I don't know, but perhaps they feel killing Shia is just as good as killing Americans.

[Stone Girl]

As the OP said, I can also see (sort of) where Hamas is coming from, even though I don't agree with their methods. But the suicide bombers in Iraq--they seem to want to kill anything that moves.

[Ethilrist]

The main purpose of terrorism is to prove to the populace that their government cannot protect them.

They are succeeding.

I'm wondering how many of these guys there are. What do they do when they run out? The leaders just sit around saying, "Okay, your turn." "No, your turn." "No, I insist, you go first."

[Lemur866]

I agree Ethilrist that is what the leadership behind the suicide bombings wants. But is that enough to motivate a young shaheed to kill himself and several dozen bystanders? I suppose being told that the targets are all collaborators or Shia might be enough.

[rjung]

Think about how many Iraqis have lost loved ones, (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) property, (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/042603_anti-us-protest.htm) institutions, (http://www.anti-imperialism.net/lai/texte.php?langue=3&section=BDBJ&id=23761) and jobs (http://www.epic-usa.org/admin/Portal/LinkClick.aspx?tabid=23&table=Links&field=ItemID&id=405&link=epic_labor_report_2.pdf) due to the US invasion and subsequent occupation.

Think about how many of them are pissed off at the US (and the US-controlled "interin government") as a result.

Now think about how they'd feel about getting some payback.

[Alessan]

Think about how many Iraqis have lost loved ones, (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) property, (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/042603_anti-us-protest.htm) institutions, (http://www.anti-imperialism.net/lai/texte.php?langue=3&section=BDBJ&id=23761) and jobs (http://www.epic-usa.org/admin/Portal/LinkClick.aspx?tabid=23&table=Links&field=ItemID&id=405&link=epic_labor_report_2.pdf) due to the US invasion and subsequent occupation.

Think about how many of them are pissed off at the US (and the US-controlled "interin government") as a result.

Now think about how they'd feel about getting some payback.

Except they're attacking Iraqi civilians, not just Iraqi govenment facilities. If they were taking the claasic South American revolutionary rout and just attacking the minions of the evil running-dog imperialists, I could see where they were coming from - but why bomb a marketplace?

[Bryan Ekers]

Could be that most of the suicide bombers in Iraq aren't Iraqis, instead they are foreigners who came to Iraq to fight the infidel crusaders.

In that sense, they're not unlike the Saudis (like Osama bin Laden) and other foreign nationals who headed to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Since the 1980s, though, suicide bombing has become a much more common tactic and largely urbanized Iraq has far more targets for far more spectacular slaughter than the sparsely populated Afghanistan.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

I want to know where they are getting the materials to make bomb after bomb. Is this easier than I thought?

[AskNott]

The "where do they get all that stuff" part is not hard to figure out. When the folks who ran the government and the Iraqi army fled, while the coalition forces approached, they took a lot of deadly stuff with them. Naturally, they're unhappy about no longer being in charge. They don't welcome their new Shiite overlords.

The old guard is unlikely to regain power any time soon. Still, they are wreaking havoc. The "why" part is a mystery to me, though. It might make some kind of sense to the insurgents, but not to me.

[rjung]

If they were taking the claasic South American revolutionary rout and just attacking the minions of the evil running-dog imperialists, I could see where they were coming from - but why bomb a marketplace?
As Ethilrist pointed out, it's to spread terror -- the idea that folks supporting or depending on the US to safeguard them are SOL. And there's probably some aspect of religious/ethnic rivalry going on, as Lemur866 addressed.
I want to know where they are getting the materials to make bomb after bomb.
Some of it is probably coming from outside Iraq, but I think a lot of it is just from looting of weapons stockpiles that the US ignored. (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/10/29/iraq9575.htm)

There's also this earlier Great Debates thread about the Al Qaqaa stockpile fiasco: Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282764)

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Some of it is probably coming from outside Iraq, but I think a lot of it is just from looting of weapons stockpiles that the US ignored. (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/10/29/iraq9575.htm)

There's also this earlier Great Debates thread about the Al Qaqaa stockpile fiasco: Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282764)

That's what I suspected but I didn't want to believe it. Actually, when I was pondering this I thought, "That can't be right, it would be one hell of a scandal and it would be a huge topic of national debate and criticism."

[John Mace]

Think about how many Iraqis have lost loved ones, (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) property, (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/042603_anti-us-protest.htm) institutions, (http://www.anti-imperialism.net/lai/texte.php?langue=3&section=BDBJ&id=23761) and jobs (http://www.epic-usa.org/admin/Portal/LinkClick.aspx?tabid=23&table=Links&field=ItemID&id=405&link=epic_labor_report_2.pdf) due to the US invasion and subsequent occupation.

Think about how many of them are pissed off at the US (and the US-controlled "interin government") as a result.

Now think about how they'd feel about getting some payback.

Yeah, I'll show those Americans. I'll kill myself and a bunch of my countrymen!! Payback shall be mine!!!

I think a better explanation is that the leaders of the insurgency (or -cies) are using these suicide bombers by "brainwashing" them with a false sense of religious and/or patriotic ferver. The leaders know exactly what they're doing-- trying to instill fear in the populace. Ffear of cooperating in any way with the new government.

Lemur: Is there any actual evidence that most of these guys are not Iraqis? There should be some data on that somewher...

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Lemur: Is there any actual evidence that most of these guys are not Iraqis? There should be some data on that somewher...

I know I saw a recent story on this. May have been NPR, which would mean I rather heard a story. They were contrasting the way suicide bombers in Palestine were celebrated (posters, keychains, honor to the families etc) with those in Iraq, who were must less honored locally and were mostly foreigners recruited from other Arab states.

I don't recall a reference to how anyone knew this, however.

[John Mace]

I know I saw a recent story on this. May have been NPR, which would mean I rather heard a story.

Must've been this story: Behind the Workings of Suicide Bombers (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4630842&sourceCode=RSS).

All Things Considered, May 4, 2005 · Robert Siegel talks with Bruce Hoffman, terrorism expert at the RAND Corporation, about the recruiting, funding and psychology of suicide bombers in Iraq. Hoffman says most of the bombers are recruited from outside the country.

My bolding.

[shelbo]

Think about how many Iraqis have lost loved ones, (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) property, (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/042603_anti-us-protest.htm) institutions, (http://www.anti-imperialism.net/lai/texte.php?langue=3&section=BDBJ&id=23761) and jobs (http://www.epic-usa.org/admin/Portal/LinkClick.aspx?tabid=23&table=Links&field=ItemID&id=405&link=epic_labor_report_2.pdf) due to the US invasion and subsequent occupation.

Think about how many of them are pissed off at the US (and the US-controlled "interin government") as a result.

Now think about how they'd feel about getting some payback.

Oh, I understand the payback idea. Revenge is a powerful motivator. But if someone wronged me and I wanted to really really hurt them, my first choice would not be to kill myself. (Oooh, that'll show 'em.)

I guess I tend to agree with the John Mace brainwashing idea; it's just that "brainwashing" is easier in Israel among the Palestinians, where it seems that an entire culture has grown up to glorify the martyr and reward his (and, these days, her) family. In Iraq, however, I just don't see the same cultural backdrop.

[rjung]

Yeah, I'll show those Americans. I'll kill myself and a bunch of my countrymen!! Payback shall be mine!!!
When you've taken everything away from a man, so he has nothing left to lose...

I think a better explanation is that the leaders of the insurgency (or -cies) are using these suicide bombers by "brainwashing" them with a false sense of religious and/or patriotic ferver.
I dunno, the "brainwashing" excuse seems to me to be a bit of denial at work: "There's no reason for them to hate us! We're wholesome and right and pure of heart! The only way for them to be turned against us is if they're brainwashed/deceived/insane!"

(Not to mention, brainwashing doesn't work anyway, as Cecil himself wrote recently (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050318.html))

[Atticus Finch]

I haven't seen any solid evidence for the "mostly foreign fighters" idea. I believe it is mostly spin from the US that creates this impression - see the quote from the Rand Corporation above. It appears that while there are some foreign fighters, the vast majority of insurgents are in fact Iraqi nationals. See, for example:
Gen. George Casey, commander of the US military in Iraq, said that his troops had come upon 15 foreign fighters in Fallujah among 1000 fighters who were all Iraqi. This statement contradicted American and Iraqi official pronouncements that had insisted that it was foreign fighters who had plunged into battle in the city. From here (http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/iraqi-press-reaction-to-fallujah.html) and
Meanwhile, a US military spokesman said that it had 307 foreign fighters in custody, including 140 Syrians and 70 Iranians, along with a smattering of Yemenis, Saudis and Palestinians. Since altogether there are 11,000 people in custody, the 307 are "just a trickle." High military spokesmen increasingly admit that most armed resistance to the Anglo-American occupation is homegrown. From a different post on the same site. (http://www.juancole.com/2003_11_01_juancole_archive.html)

[Paul in Qatar]

Faced with the overwhelming power of the American forces, and an Iraqi government that enjoys the support of the vast majority (the Shias) of Iraqis, what can the Sunni minority do?

Create chaos. Driving the ethnic communities apart and hopefully sparking civil war. By doing so, they will 'prove' the government is unable to govern. Chaos will (they hope) make the government/Americans so brutally that they will drive the people into the arms of the Insurgency.

[modernhamlet]

I haven't seen any solid evidence for the "mostly foreign fighters" idea. I believe it is mostly spin from the US that creates this impression - see the quote from the Rand Corporation above. It appears that while there are some foreign fighters, the vast majority of insurgents are in fact Iraqi nationals. See, for example:
From here (http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/iraqi-press-reaction-to-fallujah.html) and
From a different post on the same site. (http://www.juancole.com/2003_11_01_juancole_archive.html)

I don't see how your data necessarily relate to the topic. While it is fairly obvious that the majority of those resisting the occupation violently are Iraqis (mostly Sunnis), the point being made is that most of the suicide bombers are foreign. The two are by no means mutually exclusive.

My take is that you've got a bunch of Iraqis who are doing what people do when a foreign power has invaded you, namely armed insurrection, snipers, roadside bombs. Effective stuff. Reasonable loss of life. And you're looking past the Americans towards your future competition at the same time.

Fortunately, because the invader is someone truly hated in their neck of the woods, the Iraqis get these foreigners, who they really disagree with on many counts (except for what's important: Who is the enemy?), willing to blow themselves up with a dozen of said enemy. Seems like a good deal.

I'm of the opinion that the average suicide bomber is the result of a mixing together decades long oppression and endemic cultural brainwashing, both of which seem to be in good supply all over the region these days. Neither alone seems suffient very often.

[Atticus Finch]

I don't see how your data necessarily relate to the topic. While it is fairly obvious that the majority of those resisting the occupation violently are Iraqis (mostly Sunnis), the point being made is that most of the suicide bombers are foreign. The two are by no means mutually exclusive.
Why should certain people do most of the fighting, while others do most of the bombing? It doesn't make sense. It's technically possible, sure, but unless you have some evidence of most suicide bombers being non-Iraqis, the logical assumption is that those who form at least 90% of the resistance are largely responsible for the suicide bombings as well.

[PatriotX]

Why should certain people do most of the fighting, while others do most of the bombing? Personal preferences perhaps. The motivations of the two groups are bound to be divergent. The motivations of Iraqis are also likely to be more like those of their fellow Iraqis than those of the foreigners.

... the logical assumption is that those who form at least 90% of the resistance are largely responsible for the suicide bombings as well. I don't think that there's necessarily enough info for this to be the loigical conclusion. The two acts are not necessarily appealing to the same groups of people.

I dunno.

[tagos]

I'll see if I can dig up a cite but a TV report I saw recently said that the bombers turn out to largely be foreign 'martyrs' but that they are the tip of a local logistical spear, quoting unnamed US army and Iraqi sources. Which makes sense to me. You can't be perpetrating such outrages on this large a scale without internal support. One of the things worrying the coalition is the 'enemy of my enemy' coming together of different insurgent groups.

The report described the 'taxi-rank' methodology. Car-bombers drive around and local eyes and ears 'call-in' targets of opportunity on mobiles (as well as planned targets based on inside leaks).

As to why they do it - it seems obvious. Targeting 'collaborators' like those seeking jobs in the govt or with the coalition and provoking a civil war. And I don't think we can just cry 'brainwashing'. These people fanatically believe in defending their faith as they see it, as much as the Christians who courted martydom in Rome.

And as others have pointed out - its not like Iraq is free of people with real grievances. In a tribal, honour based society each time you bomb a wedding party or hose down a family car that appears threatening, no matter how righteous the call might be according to rules of engagement you will fuel the insurgency. It might not be 'fair', it might not be reasonable by our own light but that's how it is. And we just keep on playing into their hands.

[tagos]

Global Security Report (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_insurgency.htm)

In January 2005 Iraqi intelligence service director General Mohamed Abdullah Shahwani said that Iraq's insurgency consited of at least 40,000 hardcore fighters, out of a total of more than 200,000 part-time fighters and volunteers who provide intelligence, logistics and shelter. Shahwani said the resistance enjoyed wide backing in the Sunni provinces of Baghdad, Babel, Salahuddin, Diyala, Nineveh and Tamim. Shahwani said the Baath, with a core fighting strength of more than 20,000, had split into three factions. The main one, still owing allegiance to jailed dictator Saddam Hussein, is operating out of Syria. It is led by Saddam's half-brother Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hassan and former aide Mohamed Yunis al-Ahmed, who provide funding to their connections in Mosul, Samarra, Baquba, Kirkuk and Tikrit. Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri is still in Iraq. Two other factions have broken from Saddam, but have yet to mount any attacks. Islamist factions range from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al-Qaeda affiliate to Ansar al-Sunna and Ansar al-Islam.

A picture of the composition of the insurgency, though in constant flux, has come into somewhat greater focus. London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies estimates roughly 1,000 foreign Islamic jihadists have joined the insurgency.

Recruitment

Recruiting militants has been observed to take place in three stages. First, there is some form of contact initiated, perhaps in a mosque after daily prayers. In this first conversation, a later meeting is arranged. After this meeting, some of the prospective militants are eliminated, leaving the third round of candidates that will train in the campus. Accoring to the 12 August 2003 New York Times, these recruits are instructed to move away from their families and terminate communication with all outsiders.

Foreign fighters are a small component of the insurgency and comprise a very small percentage of all detainees. Syrian, Saudi, Egyptian, Jordanian and Iranian nationals make up the majority of foreign fighters. Fighters, arms and other supplies continue to enter Iraq from virtually all of its neighbors despite increased border security.

Analysis of Arab fighters killed (http://haganah.org.il/harchives/003756.html) (Make of the source what you will, an offshoot of an Israeli militia)

It is important to note that this list contains only those Arabs who joined the Jihadi-Salafi insurgency, primarily of Abu Mus'ab al-Zarqawi's group, and supporters of Qaedat al-Jihad. Even though the list is incomplete, it provides us with some interesting insights about the phenomenon of foreign volunteers for Jihad, which shows no signs of subsiding.

Analysis
Sorted by their countries of origin, the 154 Arabs killed in Iraq in the past six months have the following distribution:
Country Number Percent
Saudi Arabia: 94 61%
Syria: 16 10.4%
Iraq: 13 8.4%
Kuwait: 11 7.1%
Jordan: 4
Lebanon: 3 (one was living in Denmark)
Libya: 2
Algeria: 2
Morocco: 2 (one was living in Spain)
Yemen: 2
Tunisia: 2
Palestine: 1
Dubai: 1
Sudan: 1 (living in Saudi Arabia)

note the prominence of our great pals - the Saudi's.

[wayward]

Not sure if this throws any light on the motivation behind the attacks, or if it has much relevance to Iraq, but it answers the question of where they keep coming from.
I got speaking to a guy recently who had served in the Israeli military and according to him, the bombers themselves are often not actually extremists. The real terrorists will take a family hostage, supply one member with a bomb and tell them that if they don't detonate it at a particular time and place, the rest of the family dies.

[tagos]

Not sure if this throws any light on the motivation behind the attacks, or if it has much relevance to Iraq, but it answers the question of where they keep coming from.
I got speaking to a guy recently who had served in the Israeli military and according to him, the bombers themselves are often not actually extremists. The real terrorists will take a family hostage, supply one member with a bomb and tell them that if they don't detonate it at a particular time and place, the rest of the family dies.

Giant pinches of salt all round on that one short of an authoritative cite. I don't think we need to look for fanciful explanations as to why martyrdom is saught. This to me looks like a blatant propaganda attempt to deny Palestinians have legitimate grievances however illegitimate and disgusting suicide bombing is as a tactic. Maybe it happens on occasion but from the many interviews I've seen by investigative journalists there seems no shortage of angry or despairing young men willing to buy into the whole martyrdom thing.

It wouldn't surprise me if it happened occasionally but I'm sure the majority embrace martydom as they see it, voluntarily. Certainly seems to be the case in Iraq.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Why should certain people do most of the fighting, while others do most of the bombing? It doesn't make sense. It's technically possible, sure, but unless you have some evidence of most suicide bombers being non-Iraqis, the logical assumption is that those who form at least 90% of the resistance are largely responsible for the suicide bombings as well.

I see them as pretty distinct things, although of course they are still striking at the same enemy, and may have the same masterminds/funding/planning efforts behind them.

I am not sure I can articulate why they seem somewhat distinct to me, and why it's belieable to me that fighters and suicide bombers may have different profiles.

A suicide bombing is a one-off. The person who sacrifices himself or herself is the weapon, deployed one time. You may not hit that many people, or you may hit a lot, but at the end of it you will not be around to continue the struggle (or enjoy the fruits of your labors). I also think there is a strong religious component to it--that is, it's worth it because of what martyrdom supposedly brings to you in the afterlife. The act is part of a holy war, at least to the person who's strapping on the explosives. I think it takes a special sort of person to do this and to want to do this.

Insurgency, however, is an ongoing effort to rid the country of a foreign army, and could be motivated by nationalism alone (you don't have to be religious to believe you have something to gain from it). Picking up a gun or building a roadside bomb to help with this effort feels like it would be a different sort of decision.

Maybe it's a misconception, but I never saw Iraq as a country of fervent islamic faith. I don't think of the overall insurgency as a holy war (although some of the participating fighters may indeed see it that way).

[vibrotronica]

Americans have always had problems understanding suicide attacks. In WWII, we were baffled by the kamakazies. Myself, I could see joining a guerilla army if my country were invaded and blowing up infrastructure and enemy military equipment. If the situation got desperate enough, I might even go on missions that were suicidally dangerous. But there ain't no way no how I'd strap a bomb on and blow myself up, even if it were to kill collaborators or enemy troops. I guess the difference is the gap between what people would do for nationalism and freedom and what they do because they think god told them to do it. I don't think the role of religion in either the kamakazie or the current Iraqi suicide bombers can be overlooked.

[Paul in Qatar]

Global Security Report (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_insurgency.htm)





Analysis of Arab fighters killed (http://haganah.org.il/harchives/003756.html) (Make of the source what you will, an offshoot of an Israeli militia)





note the prominence of our great pals - the Saudi's.


(That would explain why all my students are taking long sabbaticals.)

[John Mace]

When you've taken everything away from a man, so he has nothing left to lose...


I dunno, the "brainwashing" excuse seems to me to be a bit of denial at work: "There's no reason for them to hate us! We're wholesome and right and pure of heart! The only way for them to be turned against us is if they're brainwashed/deceived/insane!"

(Not to mention, brainwashing doesn't work anyway, as Cecil himself wrote recently (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050318.html))

Well, I was using "brainwashing" in the nontechnical sense. I probably should have said "indoctrination techniques". But I have to admit, trying to understand the "logic" of suicide bombers is not something I find very easy to do.

[kniz]

According to the Washington Post many of the suicide bombers are from Saudi Arabia. I have even heard reports saying that not one suicide bomber has been an Iraqi. I tend to believe the reports that say most are outsiders.

This is not to say that the Iraqis aren't doing anything. Most if not all of the roadside bombs have been set by the Sunnis, because they have found this the best way to attack Americans.

[Eolbo]

[QUOTE=kniz]According to the Washington Post many of the suicide bombers are from Saudi Arabia. I have even heard reports saying that not one suicide bomber has been an Iraqi.
QUOTE]

Thanks for that, I knew I had read the same thing but couldn't remember where.

From the Washington Post

U.S. and Iraqi authorities say suicide drivers are invariably foreign fighters. Officers here said they knew of no documented case in which a suicide attacker turned out to have been an Iraqi. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/08/AR2005050800838.html)

Take it for what it's worth. Personally I'd be surprised if none of them at all were Iraqi but I find it very believable that its primarily foreigners who would view Iraqi civilians as just background noise to sacrifice for the cause.

[rjung]

Call me cynical, but would the "U.S. and Iraqi authorities" really say otherwise?

"Okay, we fess up, the bulk of the suicide bombers are locals who are totally pissed off at us because we bungled the whole mess."

You can't even get these folks to admit that the whole we-invaded-Iraq-to-liberate-its-people bushit isn't retroactive ass-covering; what makes you think they'd be telling the truth about this?

[Eolbo]

Call me cynical, but would the "U.S. and Iraqi authorities" really say otherwise?

"Okay, we fess up, the bulk of the suicide bombers are locals who are totally pissed off at us because we bungled the whole mess."

You can't even get these folks to admit that the whole we-invaded-Iraq-to-liberate-its-people bushit isn't retroactive ass-covering; what makes you think they'd be telling the truth about this?

I think in the scheme of things the propaganda point of whether its an Iraqi or a foreigner isnt a very big one. It may be right it may be wrong but the idea that iraqis identify more with their own countrymen and are less likely to blow up random civilians seems plausible to me regardless of who said it.

[tagos]

I think in the scheme of things the propaganda point of whether its an Iraqi or a foreigner isnt a very big one. It may be right it may be wrong but the idea that iraqis identify more with their own countrymen and are less likely to blow up random civilians seems plausible to me regardless of who said it.

Referring to my own post and the evidence there. It's not either/or. Suicide bombers are primarily from outside Iraq but they are the weapons of indigineous groups who seem to provide the logistical support and targeting.

[OliverTwistofLime]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen any cites that any educated person has been a suicide bomber.. Anyone willing to kill innocent men, women, and children as well as his own life doing this has to be an idiot and stupid.

For those of you who feel they have a legitimate reason to be murderous bombers, I say hogwash......the financiers involved do NOT commit suicide.

[tagos]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen any cites that any educated person has been a suicide bomber.. Anyone willing to kill innocent men, women, and children as well as his own life doing this has to be an idiot and stupid.

For those of you who feel they have a legitimate reason to be murderous bombers, I say hogwash......the financiers involved do NOT commit suicide.

Well the 9/11 hijackers were highly educated Saudi's if that helps. If we are to understand and so defeat our enemy it's no use clinging onto the belief they are somehow stupid, misguided cowards.

They have a perfectly legitimate reason in their own eyes and that is the only legitimacy that practically counts, regardless of how we feel about it. It's the legitimacy we have to undermine to stem the endless flow of 'martyrs.' You don't get rid of mosquitoes by swatting them, there will always be others.

As a tactic it's working for them and for a fanatically motivated insurgent, who sees less fanatical Muslims and those who co-operate with us let alone the occupying forces as their enemies, that is what counts.

It's effective, it works and no amount of ranting and name-calling is going to change that.

[OliverTwistofLime]

[QUOTEs. If we are to understand and so defeat our enemy it's no use clinging onto the belief they are somehow stupid, misguided cowards.

They have a perfectly legitimate reason in their own eyes and that is the only legitimacy that practically counts, regardless of how we feel about it. It's the legitimacy we have to undermine to stem the endless flow of 'martyrs.' You don't get rid of mosquitoes by swatting them, there will always be others.

As a tactic it's working for them and for a fanatically motivated insurgent, who sees less fanatical Muslims and those who co-operate with us let alone the occupying forces as their enemies, that is what counts.

It's effective, it works and no amount of ranting and name-calling is going to change that.[/QUOTE]

Murderers, rapists, kidnappers ALSO have a perfectly legitimate reason in their own eyes for what they do.......You jump a world of explanation and end with (Its effective and works....see above......I also believe that name calling is not going to work...

However, the real planners of these killings do NOT after the 9/11 affair submit themselves to being suicide bombers......generally the uneducated, poor, unsophisticated people.

[tagos]

Murderers, rapists, kidnappers ALSO have a perfectly legitimate reason in their own eyes for what they do.......You jump a world of explanation and end with (Its effective and works....see above......I also believe that name calling is not going to work...

However, the real planners of these killings do NOT after the 9/11 affair submit themselves to being suicide bombers......generally the uneducated, poor, unsophisticated people.

I have absolutely no idea what this means or what you are trying to say. My post can be summed up as - 'Know thine enemy.' We mustn't delude ourselves as to their nature or their support or the reasons that motivate them. It's irrelevant how poor or uneducated they may or may not be so long as the motivation exists for a never-ending supply. Frankly I have no idea why you fixate on these factors beyond some need to denigrate them. And that doesn't help.

I want the factors that drive support and organisation of these attacks to be understood and countered so they can be defeated and that requires a clear and conscious understanding of what motivates them, not dismissive name calling.

Can you please, as this is not the PIT, provide a cite to support your contention and then explain how this knowledge in any way helps us to defeat the insurgency?

[Harborwolf]

Well, I was using "brainwashing" in the nontechnical sense. I probably should have said "indoctrination techniques". But I have to admit, trying to understand the "logic" of suicide bombers is not something I find very easy to do.

It's really not that much different from a run of the mill suicide. You just have to pump up the anger a bit.

Start off with hardship, usually economic and personal. Throw in a heavy dash of frustration for that handy trapped and desperate feeling. A bit of depression helps but may not be necessary depending on circumstances. You essentially have a recipe for suicide. Things can't possibly get any better so why stick around to get kicked around.

This next part calls for an extra degree of desperation or a fair amount of gullibility. You throw in an enemy, a reason for all the suckitude in your life. In school and workplace shootings, you have peers, coworkers, bullies, etc. In Iraq, you have America: The Great Satan. How's that for marketing? America has blown up large bits of your country. America has killed innocents. America captures and tortures your fellow Iraqis. If it weren't for America, you'd probably still have a job. Boy, everything sure would be great if it weren't for that America.

For added spice, throw in some radical religion. America now is bringing about the moral decay of the country you live in and love with their cable tv and miniskirts. America wants to corrupt you with their heathen religion. They abuse your holy book. Plus, blow yourself up now and get special room rates in heaven, or the deluxe package with extra virgins.

Let simmer for a while and you have yourself a person with a low value of their own life who sees a chance to give meaning to their death and knows that something better waits for them afterwards. All they need is a target. See that line of people waiting to join the Iraqi army? They're working with the Americans. Those people over there look happy. They must love the Americans.

I know I'm oversimplifying things quite a bit, but the formula isn't that different from school shootings, workplace shootings, and even cult suicides. It's just angrier.

[Mehitabel]

Good article from the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/weekinreview/22graham.html?) about the insurgency and the Sunni role.

Some Sunni Arabs are convinced that they form the majority by themselves and cite a secret Iraqi intelligence agency census from the mid-1990's to back their claims. This is not the conspiracy theory of extremists but of American-educated, wealthy Iraqis who were thrilled by the American invasion.

The Sunni Arabs have run Iraq since the Ottoman era under the same illusion that affects every group in controls of a society - that they are the natural rulers because they are more educated and harder working. They often view the predominantly Shia southern Iraq as lazy, corrupt and promiscuous. This is not so much a sectarian division as a cultural one, a north-south relationship with almost racist overtones. It is this attitude, combined with a fear of Iran, that allows many Sunnis to justify Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Shiites.

Sounds like the Klan after the Civil War in a few ways. And if they want to ensure that their regions remain, like the South, poverty-stricken and backwards for a few more decades, then they're going the right way about it.

[OliverTwistofLime]

ICan you please, as this is not the PIT, provide a cite to support your contention and then explain how this knowledge in any way helps us to defeat the insurgency?


Tagos, let me try again.....Perhaps as many as 85-95% of the Iraquis risked their lifes in their election to support a reasonably democratic regime. Only 5 to perhaps as many as 15% of the people do not wish to see a democratic regime exist and appear willing to sacrifice their lives as well as other men, women, and children. This minority is known as insurgents or terrorists.

How difficult is it to ask them WHY they are willing to give up their lives? There are hundreds if not thousands of this minority who have been injured or captured.

The insurgents or terrorists exist in Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan to name but a few countries. We do not have the manpower to attack them all.

Now, I am asking you the following: What do you think we can learn or understand about this minority that will get them to see the light.....put down their arms and the world lives happy ever after?

Education would help....My point in previous posts was that the educated enlist the services of the poor uneducated individuals primarily to kill themselves and others. This is not name calling. This is sad and I believe truthful.

[villa]

I think in the scheme of things the propaganda point of whether its an Iraqi or a foreigner isnt a very big one. It may be right it may be wrong but the idea that iraqis identify more with their own countrymen and are less likely to blow up random civilians seems plausible to me regardless of who said it.

In the scheme of things, I think the propaganda point of the citizenship of the bombers is a very big deal. Remember how snce Day one we have been told that the insurgents were non-Iraqis. It matters to the authorities that this is not being done by locals.

Note this is not saying it is not foreigners doing the suicide bombings - I simply don't know. But there exists a very good reason for the authorities to claim it is foreigners

[tagos]

Tagos, let me try again.....Perhaps as many as 85-95% of the Iraquis risked their lifes in their election to support a reasonably democratic regime. Only 5 to perhaps as many as 15% of the people do not wish to see a democratic regime exist and appear willing to sacrifice their lives as well as other men, women, and children. This minority is known as insurgents or terrorists.

How difficult is it to ask them WHY they are willing to give up their lives? There are hundreds if not thousands of this minority who have been injured or captured.

The insurgents or terrorists exist in Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan to name but a few countries. We do not have the manpower to attack them all.

Now, I am asking you the following: What do you think we can learn or understand about this minority that will get them to see the light.....put down their arms and the world lives happy ever after?

Education would help....My point in previous posts was that the educated enlist the services of the poor uneducated individuals primarily to kill themselves and others. This is not name calling. This is sad and I believe truthful.


Well, your turnout figures are wrong to start with and anyone with any knowledge of the subject agree that the insurgency is overwhelmingly local not foreign.



Iraq election commision backtracks (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/01/iraq-election-commission-backtracks)

Turnout figures recently announced represent the enormous and understandable enthusiasm felt in the field on this historic day... However, these figures are only very rough, word-of-mouth estimates gathered informally from the field. It will take some time for the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq to issue accurate figures on turnout.

A Commission spokesman did suggest, however, that approximately eight million people may still have voted in the poll, about 60% of the eligible electorate.

IISS Report (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1491690,00.html)

The thinktank report points to US estimates that there are between 12,000 and 20,000 hardcore insurgents in Iraq. It says that Iraqi politicians have been keen to blame the rise in sectarian violence on foreign jihadists. "But they may have overstated their case."

Toby Dodge, senior fellow at the IISS and expert on Iraq, estimated yesterday that there were about 1,000 foreign fighters in Iraq "perfecting the use of car bombs" and causing more problems across the region, including Saudi Arabia. There seemed to be no "viable exit strategy" for foreign troops.

You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the situation, knowledge that isn't obscure or hard to find, just common knowlwdge anyone should have before they express an opinion, so there is no point continuing this debate.

[OliverTwistofLime]

Its difficult to debate someone who says the secret of winning the battle against the insurgents is to try and understand why they commit suicide murders.

tagos , his subtle name calling did not produce the answer he desires. Thuslly we shall debate this issue no further.

[Latro]

Its difficult to debate someone who says the secret of winning the battle against the insurgents is to try and understand why they commit suicide murders.



Sorry, but Tagos is absolutely right in this.
You must know who you are fighting. Your painting of the opposition is not based on reality.
How can you know who to target,if you are delusional about who the target is and what you need to target him with?

[OliverTwistofLime]

Sorry, but Tagos is absolutely right in this.
You must know who you are fighting. Your painting of the opposition is not based on reality.
How can you know who to target,if you are delusional about who the target is and what you need to target him with?


Since you agree with tagos makes him absolutely right, I'll take it from your point of view.

Suicide/murderous bombings have gone on for years and years....How long do the two of you think it will take to ....understand the legitimacy of thought by the suicide/murderous bombers?

What do you think the reason is? and knowing same, how are you going to get them to cease? Thats all I ask from you.

[Harborwolf]

What do you think the reason is? and knowing same, how are you going to get them to cease? Thats all I ask from you.

Well, the religious ones are, for all intents and purposes, untreatable. Their motivation comes from a higher power (okay, the higher power is mental illness :p ) so there is no way to talk them out of it.

As for the rest, improved standards of living would work wonders. It's harder than hell to do, but it would help deal with the frustration, rage, and depression. You could say that those feelings exist in countries that are well to do like the U.S., but we don't have people blowing themselves up on a daily basis.