Thoughts on Revenge of the Sith (unboxed spoilers)

[Mister Rik]

If I remember correctly, when Obi-Wan is looking through the security footage, it shows Anakin in various duels with younglings. Since one of the first rules of being a jedi is to always hold on to your light sabre I assume all the children had one on them. So while they may not have been prepared, it looks like at least some of them went down fighting.
Ever since TPM, I've been wondering if the younglings were using real lightsabers, or if their training sabers had weak beams that did little more than sting if they hit living flesh (like the training orb's lasers on the Millenium Falcon). Force or not Force, I can't see handing a real saber to a little kid.

Larry Mudd - thanks.

[MaxTheVool]

Here's another musing on Sith: what would've happened if, when Anakin/Darth Vader entered the Younglings' chamber, it had turned out that: 1) the Younglings had been warned, or sensed, their peril, and were on guard; and 2) they were all armed with their training-sabres? In other words, imagine this was a separate thread: "Dark Jedi Anakin vs. a roomful of prepared Jedi Younglings". Do the kiddies stand a chance? (Is the correct answer to this question simply a :dubious: ?)

You would have ended up with a scene that made the tear-jerking dead Ewok in ROTJ look like a Care Bears movie in comparison.


Seriously, that's one of the scenes that I think Lucas handled perfectly. It's left very clear what happened without having to go into gory details of little kids getting chopped up.

[cruel butterfly]

Originally posted by Excalibre
By the way, it's "Grievous". Not "Greivous" or "Grevous" or "Grevious". Didn't you people ever have spelling tests as children?


:)

[cruel butterfly]

I haven't read any of the books...as far as I am concerned, there are the movies and then there are the books...unrelated.

There is not one episode that I can say I HATE. Every movie has its place on my personal Top Six Star Wars Movies Ever list. Which is as follows:

6. Return of the Jedi (ewoks---just too cute)

5. Phantom Menace (didn't like the child actor who played Anakin)

4. Attack of the Clones (eh...)

3. A New Hope (can't get over the scene where Luke stands in silhouette against the horizon at the setting of the suns on Tatooine and the swell of the music)

2. Revenge of the Sith (awesome CGI, heartwrenching portrayal of the Fall of Anakin, interesting links to episodes IV, V, and VI)

1. Empire Strikes Back (always has been, always will be my favorite...)

[Colibri]

It cost me MX$43 pesos -- that's about US$3.91. And that was for the 12:01am showing on Thursday!

I paid $3.75. :)

[Walker in Eternity]

I'm probably one of the last people to see this movie (yesterday afternoon).

Thoroughly enjoyed it. Anakins fall was generally well done. In fact IMHO without Mace Windu's actions he would never have gone over to the dark side.

The thing I liked most about this episode is the fact that there were no cutesy aliens, which makes it rank with Empire as one of the best.

I have a few minor quibbles about the lack of involvement of Anakins extended family on Tatooine (Sp.?) and the gross stupidity of placing baby Luke in their care and keeping surname intact.

My other quibble is how did Owen Lars not recognise Artoo and Threepio in Ep.4 ? Although perhaps he does, as when told that Artoo is looking for Obi Wan he suggests having it's memory erased.

In general a very good addition to the series.

[Diceman]

I have a few minor quibbles about the lack of involvement of Anakins extended family on Tatooine (Sp.?) and the gross stupidity of placing baby Luke in their care and keeping surname intact.
Well, they thought that Anakin was dead at this point, so it's not too stupid. Still, you'd think Obi-Wan would tell them to raise Luke as their own kid.

My other quibble is how did Owen Lars not recognise Artoo and Threepio in Ep.4 ? Although perhaps he does, as when told that Artoo is looking for Obi Wan he suggests having it's memory erased.
Did Owen ever meet R2-D2? If he did, it was only briefly, so I can accept him simply forgetting about Artoo. Owen and C-3PO, however, is more of a problem. If Lucas releases a final version of the original trilogy, he'll probably add a line to that scene with the Jawas where Owen, seeing Threepio in the lineup, asks, "Have we met?" and Threepio replies "I don't think so, sir."

[Walker in Eternity]

Well, they thought that Anakin was dead at this point, so it's not too stupid. Still, you'd think Obi-Wan would tell them to raise Luke as their own kid.


Did Owen ever meet R2-D2? If he did, it was only briefly, so I can accept him simply forgetting about Artoo. Owen and C-3PO, however, is more of a problem. If Lucas releases a final version of the original trilogy, he'll probably add a line to that scene with the Jawas where Owen, seeing Threepio in the lineup, asks, "Have we met?" and Threepio replies "I don't think so, sir."

Yeah it always puzzled me why the Organas brought Leia up as their own, while the Lars were always Aunt and Uncle to Luke.

I can't remember if Owen ever met R2-D2, I could be justr assuming something that might not have actually happened, I shall re-watch AOTC to see.

[Fromage A Trois]

I saw this last night... and I enjoyed it. I did feel it started a bit slowly but got better towards the end. I've not read the entire thread so apologies if these have already been mentioned too many times:

I thought the CGI was overdone - obviously it's great for enormous space battles, but I didn't think R2 needed to be CG. And he was far too agile. If you threw a communications device at him in ep IV-VI it would simply have bounced off, he wouldn't catch it. And although I realise if you're going to have one actor playing all the clones you'll need to do some CG work, if you have only one clone in the scene with his helmet off, have a man in an outfit (like the storm troopers in the original films) - don't paste his head on later.

I also wasn't sure why Obi-Wan left Anakin after their fight - either take him with you or finish him off - don't leave him for dead.

However, for the most part I enjoyed it, and it was nice to see the Organa's ship, and the star destroyer at the end.

One thing is bugging me, and it's not a plot hole... as Obi-Wan takes Padme to a base on a moon or asteroid or something, just before he lands, we see a shot of the base. It only lasts a second or two, but this image looks familiar. It's shot from the edge of a large crater, with the base in the distance, and two spacesuited men in the foreground, to the left, looking at the base. Where have I seen this before? I think it's an homage by Lucas - is it 2001 - A Space Odyssey?

[spiralscratch]

Yeah it always puzzled me why the Organas brought Leia up as their own, while the Lars were always Aunt and Uncle to Luke.Luke already had that existing relation to Owen and Beru, what with Anakin being step-brother to Owen via Shmi's marriage to Cliegg Lars. What would really be gained by telling Luke otherwise when he was older?

Leia had no existing relation to the Organas, therefore she was adopted into the family.


Did Owen ever meet R2-D2? If he did, it was only briefly, so I can accept him simply forgetting about Artoo. Owen and C-3PO, however, is more of a problem. If Lucas releases a final version of the original trilogy, he'll probably add a line to that scene with the Jawas where Owen, seeing Threepio in the lineup, asks, "Have we met?" and Threepio replies "I don't think so, sir."During Shmi's funeral, R2-D2 did come down to the homestead from the ship to inform Anakin of the message from Obi-Wan on Geonosis. Owen did see R2 briefly.

FWIW, in AOTC C3PO was not yet the gold color he was when purchased by Owen in ANH. He was still the rough/natural dark metal color. It could be said this made recognition, at least at first, less likely.

[treis]

The biggest thing that makes me go huh? is all the talk of the Jedi's being a dead and more or less imaginary religion in ANH. Lets take the guy Vader force chokes in the meeting room of the Death Star. The end of RoTS is what 18-20 years before ANH takes place. So here we have a guy high enough in rank to be part of the higher leadership of the flag ship of the Empire. Yet somehow he fails to remember the clone wars which he probably fought in and the giant freaking Jedi temple in the capital city.

[Revtim]

I think Christianity is an imaginary religion even though there's churches all over the place now. (If Jesus choked me from across the room I'd probably be convinced otherwise though)

[Stonebow]

Finally got to see it this past Friday. Given that TPM was the most disappointing experience of my life, and AoTC was unable to redeem it, I went in with low expectations.

I have to say that I enjoyed it. The acting was much better in this one (though Portman still stunk), the CGI (especially Yoda) was great, and the plot was plausible. The climax was done very well, i thought.

Only items of disappointment:

- Jarjar- I hate the guy, but a total lack of a speaking part? What the hell happens to him?
- Any scene with Portman
- Any scene with Jimmy Smits
- Wookie fan service
- All of the hands being cut off (yes, i know, kendo, yada yada, etc.)
- the total cop-out at the end w/ Yoda telling Obi-wan about the secret of 'immortality'- will Qui-gon get inserted into the OT in its next release?

I still wish they'd taken Anakin in another direction- it was frustrating to me to see him disregard every single command/recommendation from everyone in the 3 films. I'd have rather seen someone more in line with Obi-Wan who is destroyed by duty rather than a rebellious, self-centered teenager. basically, i wanted a more grown up Anakin.

But it was a good film, overall.

I was also surprised at how much the Clone Wars cartoon series was needed as a reference point for the film. Of course, the cartoon was fantastic, so this was a plus.

[Revtim]

I was also surprised at how much the Clone Wars cartoon series was needed as a reference point for the film. Of course, the cartoon was fantastic, so this was a plus.I didn't see Clone Wars and I didn't feel I missed anything I needed.

[Ike Witt]

I didn't see Clone Wars and I didn't feel I missed anything I needed.
Ahh, how do you know if you missed anything if you didn't see it? Personally, I found the Clone Wars to provide some decent background. Particularly since the opening crawl mentions that there are heros on both sides of the conflict. The cartoon gives some insight to the heros on the separatist side.

[Knowed Out]

I finally got around to seeing ROTS yesterday. As we left the movie, we all felt kind of underwhelmed. It's a very pretty movie, but it's just not gripping like the original trilogy.

But, the more I think about it, the more it's growing on me. Anakin is actually quite a fascinating character. He is in today's terms a boy genius. Yet he's never had peers or friends his own age. Just masters telling him what to do. They knew he was better than they, but didn't want to give up power to him.

In Padme, he found acceptance, but it was from a peer standpoint. He finally won acceptance from an authority figure: the Emperor. And the Emperor played him like cards.

Anakin looked like a boy in a man's body. He had done all these heroic things for the Republic and never felt like he got approval from the Jedi council. They just kept telling him about the things he could not do.

When Anakin goes to Yoda to tell him about his visions of Padme dieing, Yoda doesn't tell him "We'll do everything we can to save her. Don't worry. Keep the faith." Instead, he tells him he has to accept what's going to happen and deal with the loss now. Then the Emperor tells him exactly what he wanted to hear in a bald-faced lie. Anakin believes him because he wants to believe him.

In the final duel, Anakin just kept glaring at Obi Wan with pure hate. He wanted to prove he was better than Obi Wan once and for all and stop being told he had to do this and do that. He didn't succeed. The emperor planted the final seed in rebuilding him and telling himi that he killed Padme in anguish. By the end of the movie I got the feeling that Darth Vader had resigned himself to his fate. He had nothing left. All his friends and loved ones were gone. His old life was gone. But now he finally has the one thing he had sought his whole life: approval.

[Revtim]

Ahh, how do you know if you missed anything if you didn't see it? Personally, I found the Clone Wars to provide some decent background. Particularly since the opening crawl mentions that there are heros on both sides of the conflict. The cartoon gives some insight to the heros on the separatist side.I know I missed stuff, I just didn't feel I missed anything I *needed*.

[ultrafilter]

I know I missed stuff, I just didn't feel I missed anything I *needed*.

No, not really. But it is a nice bit of story in between the movies, and it's far and away the best Star Wars feature to come out in 24 years.

[Stonebow]

I didn't see Clone Wars and I didn't feel I missed anything I needed.

Things I learned form the Clone Wars cartoons:

1) Anakin and Obi-Wan really were good friends, and were the Cagny and Lacey of the Outer Rim campaigns.

2) Mace Windu truly is a bad-ass motherfucker

3) The clone troopers are totally sweet

4) Count Dooku really is quite formidable (and evil)

5) how General Grievous got his cough (see #2 of this list)

6) GG is 10x as evil in the cartoons as in the movie. He's basically a Jedi Killer.

7) The other Jedi were pretty good generals

8) How Anakin got that scar over his eye

[The Scrivener]

A fan's notes, part 3:

Lucas inserted a visual joke in having a scene set in opera house. The "space opera" within a space opera, geddit?

Seriously, though, I see a serious, very familiar filmic archetype at play for the first time in "Sith" -- the vampire movies! Think about it: the Chancellor's seduction of Anakin is structured like the classic seduction of a PYT in a Dracula movie, with Palpatine's subversive suggestions the rough equivalent of a vampire's bite. I could be wrong about some of the details; I'm having some trouble recalling just how many meetings there were between Anakin and Palpy, and whether they were all at night. (Ideally, there should be two, before the final, fatal "bite.) IIRC, they have two increasingly sinister rendezvous on as many successive nights: the first, when Anakin reports to Palpatine's request for a meeting; the second, when Anakin surreptitiously meets Palpy at the opera. After the latter, there's a prolonged, poignant sunset meditation scene with Anakin and Padme silently communing with each other across Coruscant. This is the last time the two lovers will be on the same wavelength, and it's Anakin's last sunset as a Jedi. That night, he will be transformed in spirit, as he will be, after Mustafar, in form.

Also as in some vamp movies, the beautiful victim doesn't become a creature of the night without waging an internal struggle, marked by ambivalence and anguish. There's much emphasis placed on Anakin's obvious regret for losing his innocence. He's seen tearing up on at least three occasions, when he's contemplating either losing Padme or turning to the Dark Side, and when he's massacring the Younglings and the Federation guys.

Likewise, as in the vamp flicks, the victim's betrothed and best friends put up a spirited resistance to the growing menace, anxiously charting the progressive decline of the specially-selected victim, and exhorting [her] to resist temptation, turn away from the Dark Lord, and return to the sunlit world of all that is decent. One point that many fans debate is whether Anakin could return to the ways of the Jedi after his pledge, and at what point his fall has become irrevocable. I liked the way Lucas dropped teasing hints that this remained a possibility until the very end. Even during the duel on Mustafar, the dialogue becomes ever more heartfelt, intimate, and confessional. Even when their fighting is almost at its end, Obi-Wan tries to get Anakin to see that Palpatine's "evil," that a true defense of the Republic requires turning on the Chancellor. It's only when Anakin shouts that, from his point of view, it's the Jedi who've turned evil, does Obi-Wan give up: [paraphrased] "Then you truly have turned to the Dark Side".

[MovieMogul]

IIRC, they have two increasingly sinister rendezvous on as many successive nights: the first, when Anakin reports to Palpatine's request for a meeting;Nope. Daytime.

[BMax]

The wookies didn't name their planet Kashyyk. Soemone else gave it that name. If the wookies had named their planet, it would be something like Mwaa-aa-a-a-armnh.

Who else thought Darth Vader needed a barbie doll and a skyscraper for the scene where he broke his manacles and said "NOOOOOOOOOOO"?

Overall, not a bad film. It avoided sucking except on the occasions where Anakin & Padme were talking together. And the NOOOOO scene. It certainly wasn't ESB, but it was better than half-assed.

[Walker in Eternity]

I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars series, but I don't think it impaired my enjoyment of the film, although I accept that there may have been elements of backstory that I was unaware of.

I have to say I think that Knowed Out has hit the nail on the head for the reasons behind Anakins fall.

[HubZilla]

The wookies didn't name their planet Kashyyk. Soemone else gave it that name. If the wookies had named their planet, it would be something like Mwaa-aa-a-a-armnh.

In that crowd of Wookiees, did I see Mala, Itchy, and Lumpy?

The Clone Wars cartoon annoyed me because the Jedi were too freakin' powerful. Individual jedi could take on a billion droid troops (and spaceships) and not break a sweat. Yet a couple dozen clones could mow them down?

[Apos]

The posters in this thread say that in the cartoon? series (that tells the story we don't see between CW and Sith), Mace Windu uses the Force on him and crushes his chest a little? making him kinda wheezy.

Yes, but for people who didn't see CW, it's inexplicable, especially since he is described as being a droid in the opening. It's a little more clear later that he's a cyborg, but it's never well spelled out, and you're left with the impression that it's just some wacky, inexplicably coughing robot.

Cool! I just looked that up, she's a Jedi. That's exactly what I wanted to happen! I wanted Obi and another Jedi, someone expendable who wouldn't add to the 66 scene , to drop in there and fight Grevious in an incredible 5 minute saber battle, her getting chopped to bits, pg 13 style! I'll have to check out what Lucas did when the dvd comes out... to me, it's the most obvious flaw in the movie. Such a shame.

What's a shame is that GG was such a potentially cool character that Lucas turned into basically a more violent Jar Jar. Shakti featured in the original battle with GG, so her dying trying to redeem her failure would sort of make sense, though it would have been outside of the film. However, ANYTHING in film to demonstrate why GG is such a major threat or so evil would have been nice. Instead, this giant threat basically seems to run away at every chance.

[Kaspar Hauser]

The Clone Wars cartoon annoyed me because the Jedi were too freakin' powerful. Individual jedi could take on a billion droid troops (and spaceships) and not break a sweat. Yet a couple dozen clones could mow them down?

Yeah, but that was a cartoon. This is real life!

[MovieMogul]

What's a shame is that GG was such a potentially cool character that Lucas turned into basically a more violent Jar Jar. Shakti featured in the original battle with GG, so her dying trying to redeem her failure would sort of make sense, though it would have been outside of the film. However, ANYTHING in film to demonstrate why GG is such a major threat or so evil would have been nice. Instead, this giant threat basically seems to run away at every chance.This is, however, wholly consistent with the prequel films--each one introduces a "badass" villain who may look cool but whose appearance is too brief and, in the long run, doesn't do very much before getting killed:

Darth Maul: 1 kill, then cut in half.
Jango Fett: 2 kills, then head lopped off
General Grievous: 0 kills (unless you count some of the clones his bike runs over), then shot.

[andrewdt85]

Darth Maul: 1 kill, then cut in half.
Jango Fett: 2 kills, then head lopped off
General Grievous: 0 kills (unless you count some of the clones his bike runs over), then shot.

And Count Dooku didn't kill anybody either, did he? :rolleyes:

[MovieMogul]

And Count Dooku didn't kill anybody either, did he? :rolleyes:Actually, now that you mention it, no, he didn't.

But at least Christopher Lee is an actor who can convey a certain menace, even though he doesn't appear very much in the films either. But Maul/Jango/Grievous were all show (fancy moves/gadgetry/costuming) but mostly bluster.

[Ike Witt]

But Maul/Jango/Grievous were all show (fancy moves/gadgetry/costuming) but mostly bluster.
I think that this was intentional to help bolster the evil badassness of Darth Vader.

[MovieMogul]

I think that this was intentional to help bolster the evil badassness of Darth Vader.Maybe, but even Vader isn't very badass in the prequels (Evil? Sure, but Badass? No). When Anakin turns, he doesn't defeat a single combatant who's a genuine challenge. His body count that we see are some younglings and the Separatists--all cakewalks for even the greenest of Jedi.

And why would you want to water down your new "cool" villains just to remind people of the major Star Wars villain that these movies don't feature?

[Ike Witt]

And why would you want to water down your new "cool" villains just to remind people of the major Star Wars villain that these movies don't feature?
What good is coolness when you're dead after 5 minutes of screen time?

[MovieMogul]

What good is coolness when you're dead after 5 minutes of screen time?Exactly. So either (a) don't make them and--more critically--market them as ultracool, or (b) don't kill them off so quickly. Why did a major villain have to die every 5 reels or so? Did Maul have to die in Phantom? No. Did Jango have to die in Clones? No. The larger story arc wouldn't have been effected in any real sense if they lived a while longer, and their durability would have made them more effective menaces. How threatening can a villain be if one after the other are so easy to dispatch?

[Mister Rik]

However, ANYTHING in film to demonstrate why GG is such a major threat or so evil would have been nice. Instead, this giant threat basically seems to run away at every chance.
It also would have been nice to know where the heck Grievous came from in the first place. Who is this guy? I have absolutely no recollection of seeing him in AotC (and it's entirely possible that I've just totally forgotten him - I've only seen TPM twice and AotC once), but there he is at the beginning of RotS, like I'm supposed to know who he is.

[levdrakon]

Why did a major villain have to die every 5 reels or so? Did Maul have to die in Phantom? No.

Oh, I agree with this a hundred eleventy gahzillion percent! I was so pissed off they'd introduce such a cool villian as Darth Maul - sooooo much cooler than Vader, Sideous, Dooku and Greivous - tell us nothing about him and then kill him off.

Lucas could spin off another three movies just chronicling Maul's origin's and adventures.

[The Asbestos Mango]

At least according to one Lucas draft though, Sidious was actually pretty disappointed that his apprentice was so badly cripppled: it was a real let-down for him. And it makes sense with the movie too: if all Sidious cares about is his own power, why not kill Anakin and stick with Dooku? Why brag to Yoda about Anakin being more powerful than either of them?

Maybe the damage was worse than Sidious had planned or intended? Nah. Screw any draft of the script except the one that was shot.

Dooku was powerful, too powerful for Sidious to be able to control for too many years longer. It would only be a matter of time before he made his move and killed Palpatine. Anakin was powerful, but also young and vulnerable. Palpatine knew that once he reached the full potential of his power, he would no longer be able to control him, and given that Anakin was already the Most Powerful Jedi Ever, that presented a bit of a problem. Solution? Cripple him, put him in a position where, at least for a period of time, he was dependent on his new master. It would take time for Anakin/Vader to heal, learn to use his Dark Side powers, hell, learn to freaking walk again, and in the meantime, Sidious could have a great deal of control over him. So, while he would still be (or rather, become) much more powerful than most Jedi could ever hope to be, it would take probably decades for him to reach the point where he would become a serious threat to Sidious where with Dooku, it would take, what, maybe a coupla years.

[The Scrivener]

I thought the scene of Obi-Wan returning to Padme after the Mustafar duel could've been handled better. After Padme asks Obi-Wan if Anakin's alright (an unintentionally risible moment, considering the horror of what's just transpired), there could've been a cut to Obi's pained expression as he pauses and says, "Padme, you have all that's left of Anakin now." Cut back to Padme, who for a long moment wrestles with her emotions (paralleling the long moment Anakin struggled with his when she told him she was pregnant), before she says something like "Yes, I understand. You had no choice." [Optional third line: (breaking into tears) "But this is the unhappiest moment of my life."]

[Merijeek]

Oh, I agree with this a hundred eleventy gahzillion percent! I was so pissed off they'd introduce such a cool villian as Darth Maul - sooooo much cooler than Vader, Sideous, Dooku and Greivous - tell us nothing about him and then kill him off.

Lucas could spin off another three movies just chronicling Maul's origin's and adventures.

Sure, and then you get a bunch of bitches whining about how it was actually all done just to sell more toys.

Maul was nothing more than an attack dog. He didn't need a backstory, and he certainly didn't need any continuing adventures.

-Joe

[The Hook]

I have a question: The title crawl tells me there are heores on both sides. Now, General Grievous and Count Dooku are cool people (and cyborg), but heroes? Who the hell is the hero?

[Bosstone]

I have a question: The title crawl tells me there are heores on both sides. Now, General Grievous and Count Dooku are cool people (and cyborg), but heroes? Who the hell is the hero?
They're the heroes of the Separatists. I'm quite willing to bet that the Separatists, aside from perhaps the actual Sith lords, didn't see themselves as evil or villainous, just as the Rebel Alliance in the original trilogy didn't see themselves as bad, although the Imperial troops and officers certainly saw them as such.

[commasense]

I waited a couple of weeks to see it, and went only because I'd heard that it was better than the last two, and out of a feeling that, having seen the first five, I might as well see the last one in a theater.

It's crap. Not quite as horrible crap as Eps 1 and 2, but complete and utter crap nonetheless. The characters are cardboard cutouts, the acting is pathetic, the dialog is laughable, and the plot is childish. I was sick and tired of the thousands of shots with gazillions of air vehicles zipping by in the background in Ep. 2. It really got tiresome in Ep. 3.

My list of the three worst films ever consists of Ep. 2, Ep. 1, and Ep. 3. Plan Nine From Outer Space looks like Citizen Kane compared to these three films. I would happily watch Plan Nine any day: it's an entertaining film. I will never watch Eps 1-3 again as long as I live.

Now before you write me off as someone who hates Star Wars or science fiction, let me explain that in 1977 I was in line to see the first show of Star Wars, and watched it from the first row of the great Uptown theater in Washington, DC. I still think Star Wars (which I will never refer to as "A New Hope" or Ep. 4. That's revisionist B.S.) is a great film.

Nor do I think it's impossible for an action/comic book/space opera film to have good acting and interesting characters. For example, look at Spider-Man 2. Tobey Maguire does a terrific job of portraying a character tormented by the problems caused by his desire to do the right thing. Interesting character, great acting. And completely unlike anything in Ep. 3 (or 2 or 1).

It seems from the posts here (I read the first few pages, but couldn't bring myself to plow through the rest) that most of the people who liked the character development or plot had read books, or seen the Clone Wars cartoon, or other material outside the films. I'm sorry, but if you need stuff outside the film to make it work, the film has failed.

I don't expect my little rant to change anyone's mind, and if you liked the film, I'm happy for you. But I guaratee that Eps 1-3 will never appear on any serious critic's top 50 list, nor will they be anything more than a cinema footnote in 20 years. They are not great films.

[levdrakon]

Sure, and then you get a bunch of bitches whining about how it was actually all done just to sell more toys.

Maul was nothing more than an attack dog. He didn't need a backstory, and he certainly didn't need any continuing adventures.

-Joe

Wookies, Ewoks & Gungans are designed to sell toys. The coolness that is Darth Maul doesn't translate fully into a video game, and certainly doesn't make a cuddly X-mas stuffed toy. He could be handled OK in books & comics though. Much better than he was treated in the movie. C'mon, he's a Sith Lord. He's got to have a much more interesting backstory than just "attack dog."

Now, General Greivous seems custom-made to sell little transformer action figures.

I agree with commasense on this one point:It seems from the posts here (I read the first few pages, but couldn't bring myself to plow through the rest) that most of the people who liked the character development or plot had read books, or seen the Clone Wars cartoon, or other material outside the films. I'm sorry, but if you need stuff outside the film to make it work, the film has failed.

Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more. General Grievous was more like, "what, everyone knows who he is but me? Now I'm supposed to read all the books, comics & watch all the cartoons before seeing a Star Wars movie?"

At least they gave us some history on Dooku, but he was by far the most boring villain of the whole lot.

I don't think it means the film has failed me though. It's just, someone should have told me first. I always thought Lucas jealously guarded his main Star Wars universe and only just tolerated all the EU fan fiction type stuff. Now it seems you really should read up on all the EU stuff before seeing the movie.

You know, if you want to enjoy the Serenity movie coming out this fall, you really should watch the TV series. You wanna enjoy a Dune movie or mini-series you really ought to read the books first. You wanna enjoy a Star Trek movie at all you should prolly already be familiar with the TV shows, and have an emotional investment there.

But no one told me I had to do homework before seeing the latest Star Wars.

[sturmhauke]

You wanna enjoy a Star Trek movie at all you should prolly already be familiar with the TV shows, and have an emotional investment there.
Actually, if you want to enjoy Star Trek: Nemesis you shouldn't be too familiar with the TNG shows, or you would realize how horribly miscast and defanged the Romulans were, among other things.

Anyway, I don't think any of the Star Wars movies are great films. Some of them are cool films, which is a different thing.

[MaxTheVool]

Several points:
(1) Episodse 1 through 3 are certainly NOT the three worst movies ever made, and to suggest that they are is laughable hyperbole beyond measure

(2) There was an amusing parody of the Padme-confronts-Annakin-on-lava-planet scene in the MTV Movie Awards tonight

(3) For those who liked Darth Maul, I thought that Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter was quite good, as simplistic airplane reading goes. I've actually read almost no Star Wars books, but I picked it up on a whim, and enjoyed it thoroughly.

[Diceman]

(1) Episodse 1 through 3 are certainly NOT the three worst movies ever made, and to suggest that they are is laughable hyperbole beyond measure
Thank you! No film series in history has suffered from overinflated expectations as badly as this new Star War trilogy. Episode 1 was disappointing, but it works as a prequel. (It does not work as a stand-alone movie, however. You really need to have seen the original trilogy first.)

All the whining about the Ewoks and Jar-Jar is basically just wanking by sci-fi snobs who instinctively hate anything that gives a movie more mass appeal. These people need to remember that Star Wars is a space opera. It is, first and foremost, entertainment.

[Sweetums]

All the whining about the Ewoks and Jar-Jar is basically just wanking by sci-fi snobs who instinctively hate anything that gives a movie more mass appeal. These people need to remember that Star Wars is a space opera. It is, first and foremost, entertainment.


Star Wars has no mass appeal without Jar Jar? Wow! Who knew! :rolleyes:

Yes that's it, all us fanboy snobs had this almost unknown underground series, that was introduced the the public by such "made for the toystore shelves" marketing ploys as Jar-Jar and the Ewoks. If it weren't for them, Star Wars would have remaind the cult film that it was.

Double :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with the fact that they SUCKED!

[Ike Witt]

The larger story arc wouldn't have been effected in any real sense if they lived a while longer, and their durability would have made them more effective menaces. How threatening can a villain be if one after the other are so easy to dispatch?
After I first saw RotS I was emailing a friend and I mentioned that the same mistake was made with Grievous that had been made with Darth Maul - not enough screen time. But, we know that Darth Maul has killed Qui-Gon, we know that Jango has killed at least one Jedi and we know that Grievous has killed at least 4 Jedi. And I just realized that I don’t really know where I am going with this.


I have a question: The title crawl tells me there are heores on both sides. Now, General Grievous and Count Dooku are cool people (and cyborg), but heroes? Who the hell is the hero?
Guys like Durge (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/durge/) and Asajj Ventress (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/asajjventress/) were considered heros of the sepratists. Stuff like this is why I have recommended watching the Clone Wars before RotS.

[HPL]

- Love Samuel L. Jackson, but I got pulled out of the movie by him. I sat there wondering why? Oh...he's yelling that's why. Jedi Masters aren't supposed to yell. It was a nice moment that gets used a lot. A good guy who sees that doing an evil like killing the Sith Lord would end up being for the better good. It was just very Samuel L. Jackson.
"You're God damn right, Darth Sidious deserves to die! And I hope he burns in hell!"
"What does Master Yoda look like?!? Does he look like a bitch! Say 'what' again, I dare you. I double dare you!"

- The Obi and Ani moment was ruined for me. From the original trilogy, I thought Darth Vader fell into lava, and somehow managed to survive. I didn't understand that Obi left his good friend and apprentice (albeit one who turned to the darkside) as a half charred triple amputee, to die a slow death from heat exhaustion next to a lava river. Do they have some sort of code against doing putting people out of their misery?

Sam Jackson can't stop shouting because that's the way he talks. Haven't you seen any of his movies? Juice, that was a good one. Deep Blue Sea, a shark ate him. A fucking shark ate him!

I thought he left Ani by the river because he figured he was pretty much done for anyway(the fact he survived as long as he did suprised me. Jedis aren't supposed to killed unarmed enemies, and Anikin was pretty unarmed(not to mention unlegged) at the moment.

Though when Padme asked Obi-wan if anakin was okay, I said to myself "Well, if by "okay" you mean "missing three limbs and very badly burned", yeah, he's okay".

[sturmhauke]

All the whining about the Ewoks and Jar-Jar is basically just wanking by sci-fi snobs who instinctively hate anything that gives a movie more mass appeal. These people need to remember that Star Wars is a space opera. It is, first and foremost, entertainment.
I thought the Ewoks were kinda dumb, but not too terrible. Jar-Jar is just utterly irritating though, and I'm going to tell you why: He has a stupid accent, such that whenever he speaks meesa can't enjoy the movie because meesa gets jar-jarred out of it. His scenes in Ep I are largely bad slapstick, such as when he gets his head stuck in Anakin's podracer, or he stumbles his way through the droid army, somehow accidentally shooting a bunch of them. He's supposed to be from a warrior race, but the Gungans are more gangly and awkward than a middle school dance. And before you call me a sci-fi snob, you should know that I liked Starship Troopers, I Robot, Minority Report, Total Recall, Chronicles of Riddick, and a bunch of other silly movies. If I want hard SF I'll read Lucifer's Hammer again.

[Merijeek]

Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more. General Grievous was more like, "what, everyone knows who he is but me? Now I'm supposed to read all the books, comics & watch all the cartoons before seeing a Star Wars movie?"


Really? What was it that really engaged you about him? Was it his first line or his second?

See the point, yet?

-Joe

[levdrakon]

Really? What was it that really engaged you about him? Was it his first line or his second?

See the point, yet?

-Joe

I dunno, which one of R2's line's was your favorite? How about Chewbacca?

[andrewdt85]

I think we all can all look forward to the day when the American Film Institute comes out with thier list of the 100 Most Pussy Heroes/Villains of All Time.

[SlyFrog]

I dunno, which one of R2's line's was your favorite? How about Chewbacca?

The fact that they had a lot of screen time and had some story development, which gave them character to be interested in. Unlike Darth Maul, who glowered and attacked things, for a relatively short period of time moviewise.

[HPL]

Well, I saw this thursday night and I want to say the following things.

Good..........

Loved the Space Battle at the begining. Huge, and epic, puts the one at the end of ROTJ to shame. And while many have complained about it being "too busy", I was quite glad it was as busy as it was.

In Fact, I liked the fact that this is perhaps the only movie where it really feels like they're in the middle of a war.

The plot and political intrigue was a bit better then the last film, which in turn was better then TPM.

Jar Jar doesn't talk.

The Cameo's more or less worked. Chewbacca showing up didn't bother me much.

The stuff that seemed video-gamish felt less out of place then in the last movie, where it was pretty blatent at times.

Greivious worked pretty well despite the hunchback, the cape and the wheezing. I thought he was more interesting then Darth maul, at any rate, though Dooku was better still.

Bad........

The turning doesn't quite work, and it's a shame, because he's given more then enough reasons to do so. Unfortunatly, when it comes down it, it feels like Anakin turns because Lucas flicked a switch from Good to Evil. I mean, I know Anakin is pissed because he feels the other jedi are holding him back or are treating him like a child, but the way he believes palpatine, even after he reveals he's sith lord, is just wierd. He has no reason to believe the Jedi are going to take over the government other then palpatine saying so, and he's already revealed he's a fricken sith lord. Hell, Anakin though it was dangerous enough to tell Sam Jackson, er Mace Windu immediatly.

Also, he dove into Child murder pretty quick. Usually people work up to that sort of thing. I know he's evil, but comeone

The ending seemed to drag on a bit too long, just like in ROTK. Unfortunatly, I'm not quite sure how I'd do it differently, because there was a lot of ground to cover. The only thing that really stuck out was mentioning Liam Neelson's Jedi, and immediatly made me think "Oh Great. Lucas is going to get out his magic crayons and insert Liam Neelson into the uber-deluxe edition of episode 4 and then claim it was his intention all along".

Much of the dialouge was pretty bad or laughable. Examples:
-"You're breaking my heart". Gag.
-That conversation about Padme and Anakin loving each other near the beginning. They should have just gone with "Promise me you'll never die" or "maybe feelings are feelings because we can't help them"
-"Don't worry, I have threepio to protect me" This is a joke, right? What's he going to do? Annoy the enemy to death? R2 I can see, but Threepio.
-"Palpatine is Evil!" Obi-wan, I can think of about a million things that would be a a better response to Anakin's "The Jedi are going to take over the republic", and you pick that retort? Ye gads! The "I have the high ground" comment was pretty bad too, unless a clever ploy.
-The Imfamous "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" That was pretty bad.

As Usual, much of the romance didn't work, but they toned it down from AOTC.

Padme dying from a broken heart was pretty bad. Only in fiction does this happen.

Comments:
After rewatching Ep 4 today, I noticed the following things:

-I was going to say that Anakin didn't really transition well to Vader, but then I rewatched ANH(and I have the pre"magic crayon" version), and I noticed something. Vader may be a Badass, but he's far from a calm one. In fact, he shouted as much as sam jackson and is always very angry. It's like the petulant little bitch anakin is never really changed, he just got a cooler look.

Most telling is the scene where one of the imperial officers says "You're all that remains of that ancient religion" and Vader walks over and begins to choke him. Tarkin has to call him off.

The whole thing reminded me of a dog whose master yells at him because he's biting the mailman, who then stops and acts like it never happened. It almost feels like Vader is the emporers Dog, vicious and feared by almost all, but still kept on a short leash by his master and associates(Tarkin). Vader, who never has enough intiative to ever think of rebelling againest Palpatine until the very end.

In this context, Anakin ROTS actually seems to work pretty well in his angsty way
Final lisitng of the series:

-The Clone troopers actually seem somewhat more comptent in battle then the Original Trilogly strom trooprs.

-Some people have asked why R2 doesn't have all the cool freatures he had in the prequels. Some ideas have been put forth, but one came to mind today. Early in Ep 4, R2 is captured by Jawas. Perhaps they stripped the goodies off R2 before they sold him to Uncle Owen? There's nothing onscreen, but we don't see the entire time they are in the same crawler either.

1.Empire.
2.A New Hope
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Attack of the Clones
6. Phantom Menace

[Merijeek]

I dunno, which one of R2's line's was your favorite? How about Chewbacca?

And as soon as you can point out anywhere where I said that "R2D2 (or Chewbacca) needed more character development" you may have a point.

My point was that Darth Maul had, I believe, two whole lines in the movie. But I suspect you knew that, which is why you chose non-English speakers to try to deflect the point.

A character was created that looked neat. Unless you can tell us what else made you think "Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more", it all boils down to a neat-looking character.

Said attack dog character served his purpose and then died. So what?

Besides, if Darth Maul had gotten some flashbacks to give him a backstory I can only assume that like the Ewoks, Gungans, and Wookiees it would have only been included to sell toys. Or so people would have whined, anyways.

-Joe

[levdrakon]

And as soon as you can point out anywhere where I said that "R2D2 (or Chewbacca) needed more character development" you may have a point.

My point was that Darth Maul had, I believe, two whole lines in the movie. But I suspect you knew that, which is why you chose non-English speakers to try to deflect the point.

A character was created that looked neat. Unless you can tell us what else made you think "Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more", it all boils down to a neat-looking character.

Said attack dog character served his purpose and then died. So what?

Besides, if Darth Maul had gotten some flashbacks to give him a backstory I can only assume that like the Ewoks, Gungans, and Wookiees it would have only been included to sell toys. Or so people would have whined, anyways.

-Joe

What's wrong with the fact that Darth Maul just looked really cool? You aren't going to get a much more thoughtful argument out of me than that. He was cool. I wish I knew more about him. I wish he had more screen time before he died.

The fact that he rarely spoke just made him more sinister, evil and mysterious. He got right down to the business of killing. None of the usual blathering on that Sith do with their "you should join me on the Dark Side so you can experience true power because I've embraced the Dark Side and grown more powerful than you can imagine and if you don't join me I'm going to destroy you with my great power and then continue with my diabolical plans to dominate the galaxy, bwah, ha, ha!"

[The Scrivener]

One of the most-often heard criticisms of “Sith” is that the intimate scenes between Anakin and Padme fall flat -- that their dialogues (esp. the “no, you’re beautiful...” bit) are silly or insipid, that their acting is wooden and lifeless, and that Padme has, for a former queen and a current senator, become something of a domesticated wallflower, relegated to a largely passive and reactive role, with little real assertiveness or persuasiveness in her increasingly troubled relationship with Anakin. Taking those criticisms in account, the following is my radical rewrite of the first domestic scene, at the couple’s apartment on the first night after his return. I hope you enjoy it...


[SCENE: APARTMENT PATIO BALCONY; TWILIGHT. Anakin and Padme are tired and tense. Padme is standing by the door; Anakin is restlessly prowling back and forth near the balcony’s edge.]

PADME: Anakin, I don’t know what to say. We’ve been discussing politics all afternoon, without being able to agree on anything, except for a shared general devotion to democracy and the Republic. I’m really worried. I think the Chancellor is becoming more like a dictator each day, but I don’t seem to be able to convince you. We’ve never disagreed like this before on anything.

ANAKIN: [sadly] But we have, and we still are.

PADME: [shoots him a questioning look]

ANAKIN: [stops pacing] Our marriage? Your pregnancy? How much longer do you think we can keep these secret from everyone, Padme? And why should we?

PADME: [apologetically] Not much longer, Ani, I promise...

ANAKIN: But why, then? Are you afraid the Jedi Council will kick me out? Because [I]I’m not.

PADME: I know. I wasn’t sure about that before, Ani, but when I saw how well you and Obi-Wan were getting along, I felt certain that the Council wouldn't expel you if they learned about us.

ANAKIN: [pained] Then why, my love?

PADME: [pausing, then agitatedly] I can’t take that risk with respect to the Senate. This civil war is beginning to wind down, and before long, I may have to spearhead a motion to curtail the Chancellor’s emergency powers. For the sake of the Republic, I can’t reveal that I’m secretly married to a Jedi, not yet. It’s a potential conflict of interest that could be used against me in the Senate...

ANAKIN: [relieved, rushes to Padme, sweeping her in his arms] Trust me, Padme, you can handle yourself in the Senate just fine. Everyone there looks up to you... [fleetingly grins down at her, savoring the irony] ...because you’ve got more leadership qualities than the rest of them put together...

PADME: [a bit alarmed, and recoiling slightly] No, I don’t! You mustn’t say things like that...

ANAKIN: [gently drawing her to him again] We’re going to have to learn to relax a bit and trust in each other, and ourselves, a little more, or... [drawing her very close, a prelude to a kiss, his voice deepening] ...we’re not going to have much fun...

[A nice, long kiss.]

PADME: [noticing the darkened sky] It’s getting dark. We should go inside...

[ANAKIN notices a large, unlit candle either in an alcove or on a pedestal a few feet from where they’re huddled together.]

ANAKIN: Wait...

[With a hint of a mischievous grin, he turns his attention towards the candle, concentrating, and subtly motions towards it with his left (human) hand. Without any obvious Force lightning per se tracing from his fingertips, a tiny yet unmistakable blue sparking, lasting a second or two, ignites the candle.]

PADME: [recoiling strongly, gasping] What was that!?

ANAKIN: Don’t worry; it’s just another Jedi trick, something I picked up lately.

PADME: [still alarmed] I didn’t know the Jedi could do that.

ANAKIN: [slyly] They don’t. At least I don’t know of any who can. Or could, in all our history.

PADME: [gasps again] Then how, Anakin?

ANAKIN: [confused] I don’t know. Not long after I’d arrived at the Outer Rim assignment with Obi-Wan, dreamt it. When I woke up, I somehow knew I could do it, if I tried, really tried... So I did...

PADME: Is this even... natural? Is it... right?

ANAKIN: I didn't plan it; it just happened to me.

PADME: What did Obi-Wan say? And the Council?

ANAKIN: [evasively] I haven’t told them yet.

PADME: [sotto voce, bringing her fingertips to her lips] No!

ANAKIN: They wouldn’t understand, they’d just be jealous of me! Padme, I have to learn more about this power on my own, before I go running to them...

PADME: [bewildered] You can’t, you... shouldn’t be keeping this a secret from them...

ANAKIN: [accusingly, cutting her off] Look who’s talking.

PADME: [recoiling further, backing away, seriously taken aback, and taking a long pause] You’re right, but that was still a cruel thing to say, Anakin.

ANAKIN: [ruefully] I’m sorry, Padme.

PADME: [earnestly] This new power you have is something different... you need the guidance of the Council.

ANAKIN: [firmly] I do not. [softening] Not yet, anyway.

PADME: Please, Ani, you must trust them.

ANAKIN: [forlornly sad again] We each have our secrets, don’t we?


***** ********* *****


The pre-emptive “what the hell was I thinking?!?” section of explanations:

First, at the beginning of this scene, Anakin still feels a little insecure about Padme’s love for him, because of her continued unwillingness to go public about their marriage.

Secondly, as of Padme’s line “I know. I wasn’t sure about that...,” they’re talking at cross-purposes to each other. Padme doesn’t really understand the ways of the Jedi Council, nor does Anakin truly grasp current trends in Senate politics – a gap only exacerbated by their recent lengthy separation. In fact, each has a measure of blind faith in the other’s abilities to manage their respective organizations. Padme in fact misreads Anakin’s defiance as a shared understanding of the Council’s faith in him, where the opposite is actually the case – Yoda and Mace don’t, and he’s chaffing at them because of it. Similarly, Padme’s grasp of Senate politics has been on the wane (in the same way that the Jedi’s perceptive abilities have been clouded by the Sith) for some time, her pregnancy is at this point probably an open secret, and her ability to lead an organized opposition to the Chancellor (whose dictatorial potential she’s only now becoming aware of) is fast diminishing – yet Anakin is blissfully oblivious of her vulnerability. The one thing they’re both right about is in their fears for their own future careers in the Jedi and the Senate.

Thirdly, about that Force-sparking bit: it’s an obvious parallel both to his mother’s immaculate conception and, less obviously, to his wife's more natural pregnancy. Just as Palpatine (or Plagious) had earlier manipulated the damned Midichlorians to create Anakin, so has Palpatine arranged for this new “Jedi” talent in Anakin. Palpy’s purpose in this, of course, was to further drive a wedge of ambition, secrecy and distrust between Anakin and the other Jedi. (In this scenario, Anakin would probably first divulge news of his newfound ability to Palpatine, who would persuade him to continue concealing it from the Jedi.) Anakin’s new trick also establishes a new, doubled parallel with Padme’s pregnancy: for both, a new life (or life-force) is awoken in the body, around the same time (a few months previous), and both elect to keep it a secret indefinitely. Both share their secret with the other on the same day, after their months of separation. Additionally, that Anakin learns of his new ability via a dream reinforces the motif of the dreadful infallibility of his dreams, bridging his prophetic nightmares in AOTC and the ones he’ll be having about Padme and intensifying his dread of Padme’s fate.

It’s also worth pointing out that although it’s just a beginner’s tentative use of Force lightning, Anakin shouldn’t be using The Force for such cheap seduction tricks, period. In this respect, his observance of Jedi law (or creed, or custom) hasn’t improved a whit since his courtship days, when he was using lesser Force tricks to flirt with Padme in AOTC. I think it’s significant, though, that Padme has been portrayed consistently, up to this point, as being genuinely impressed (enthralled, even) by such tricks, and has been more vulnerable to Anakin’s charms when he uses them. (Perhaps Ani has been able to use Jedi Mind Tricks over her after all?) In any event, it’s Padme’s Original Sin – her starstruck, eroticized fascination with Anakin’s strength in The Force, even when overwhelmed by evidence of his shortcomings in other, crucial aspects – and in the long run, her credulousness will get her killed. (It’s too bad her weakness wasn’t illustrated a bit more forcefully in AOTC, and more strongly linked to her declaring her love for him.) Nevertheless, Padme’s alarmed reaction to Anakin’s latest trick is a very human one, rooted in her sense of decency and her sounder instincts. Something about Ani’s latest “Jedi” trick makes her uneasy and suspicious for his sake, without understanding why exactly it should make her feel so.

Fourth, Anakin’s egotism and emotional outbursts further drive them apart. At the end of the scene, they are, emotionally, back where they started – tense, uneasy, at odds and not entirely trusting of each other.

[Apos]

It also would have been nice to know where the heck Grievous came from in the first place. Who is this guy? I have absolutely no recollection of seeing him in AotC (and it's entirely possible that I've just totally forgotten him - I've only seen TPM twice and AotC once), but there he is at the beginning of RotS, like I'm supposed to know who he is.

Dude, his name is like, mentioned in the TEXT INTRO. That's how.

Of course, it IS all explained in the comics and cartoons, which are actually quite good about developing an actual coherent, consistent story. It's just that Lucas couldn't give a flying fuck about their craftsmanship.

[rjung]

To Lucas' credit, he is ready and willing to take and give potshots about his own shortcomings: (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=peopleNews&storyID=2005-06-10T130443Z_01_N10644895_RTRIDST_0_PEOPLE-LUCAS-DC.XML)
"Star Wars" creator George Lucas received a top Hollywood honor on Thursday at a dinner where he was embraced by Chewbacca the Wookiee and jokingly denounced by Princess Leia as the man "who ruined my life."

...Fisher, who played Princess Leia, told the audience, "Hi. I am Mrs. Han Solo and I am an alcoholic because George Lucas ruined by life. ... George Lucas is a sadist, but like any other young girl in a metal suit chained to a metal (creature), I keep coming back for more."

...In accepting the award, Lucas joked that he started out not being able to write a word, but became "the king of wooden dialogue."

[The Scrivener]

Oh yeah, the AFI Lifetime Achievement Award tribute! That's going to be broadcast in about a week (on Bravo?)... Looking forward to it. :)

[duality72]

Saw the movie today. Wow, was it crap. I mean really, really crap. Unintentionally funny like Battlefield Earth crap. The entire movie pretty much consisted of alternating between beautifully rendered but utterly senseless action scenes and cringingly bad dialogue between cardboard characters to advance the asinine, half-baked plot. I actually started to try napping through the dialogue bits so I could at least enjoy the next bit of action eye candy.

Anakin, Jedi Council, Padme, insipid, insipid, insipid. Palpatine had all the subtlety of a kick to the head.

Except for about 10 to 15 minutes of watchable film, this was pretty much a C movie with a huge budget. Man, I so want my money back.

[Kaspar Hauser]

The fact that they had a lot of screen time and had some story development, which gave them character to be interested in. Unlike Darth Maul, who glowered and attacked things, for a relatively short period of time moviewise.

Hey, Lucas managed to milk an entire subplot out of that re: Boba Fett.

[Declan]

The betrayal scenes were satisfactorily tragic; even knowing what happened, each death was like a gut punch. It wasn't just the deaths of the Jedi, either. Since AotC all marketing and extra-movie stuff has been centered around making the clone army look like the good guys. Lucasfilms worked hard to separate nostalgic memories of the evil stormtroopers from the good clone troopers. Specifically, I've been playing Republic Commando and really getting into it, and it does an excellent job of making the clone troopers human. Seeing them all just up and obey an oblique order to instantly turn on their generals was as sad as seeing the generals die. I liked the clones as good guys, dammit.

I actually thought it was quite easy to believe, with the whole clone thing being force grown in vats and then put through a harsh training regime on Kamino to weed out the deficiencies , having a manchurian candidate program intergrated into the clones would have been de-rigeur.

Palpatine is oviously a sysadmin who invoked root and changed the permissions

As a related note, I've seen a lot of mocking aimed at the Jedi who blindly accepted the clone army without suspicion. Superficially, I agree. It was dumb of them. But, consider:

Yup , they deserve it, yoda essentially brought about the downfall of the Jedi

1) The Republic was largely at peace, and had been for years. There was no standing army; any threats were usually small enough to be quelled by contingents of Jedi.

No standing Federal army , but while it may have taken ten years to grow 250 k troopies , less the weedies ,those proto star destroyers , both in quantity and quality did not just materialize out of thin air , so there must have been member worlds who maintained armed forces.

2) Out of a seemingly minor dispute between the Trade Federation and a single planet, almost immediately there's this enormous and deadly rebellion by the Separatists. It's much, much too big for the Jedi to handle all at once. They need firepower, and they need it fast.

This was a manufactured crisis brought about to ensure palpatines rise to the chancellorship, as far as I can tell, Naboo itself had no strategic value and the planet did not look like it was defiecient in natural resources to starve out , exports may have been a problem.

Palpatines accendancy is assured by naboo ,and now must create a climate of fear, so agents provacateur and egg on people that probably would have been trouble makers anyway and assume emergency powers for the duration.

Now all palpatine needs to do is to clear the deck of all other players , so Vader goes to mustafa and cleans house , the clones take down the jedi order and the robot army is shutdown.

Its not that the clones are bad guys , they just have a programming subset that was envisioned a decade previously.

Declan

[Siege]

OK, there's no way I'm wading through all of this, although I did make it through the first 6 or 7 pages.

I saw the movie on Friday night, and it wasn't bad. There are two things which bother me, though, one major which hasn't been addressed as far as I know, and one minor which someone else touched on. Major one first:

Why didn't Padme know she was carrying twins? Is there a chance she knew but wasn't going to tell Anakin? That seems unlikely. I'm assuming a woman of her rank would have some kind of prenatal care, and twins shouldn't be that difficult to detect. Thoughts? Theories? Kluged up explanations?

Minor one: How on earth did Padme sleep in that nightgown? Pearled sleeves can't be comfortable, not to mention all that junk around her neck.

Actually, let me throw in one more thing. For some reason, it would be a bad idea for word of Padme's and Anakin's marriage to get out. Nevertheless, she's visibly pregnant, at least for most of the movie. I figure there's got to be some pretty hot gossip about this.

The rest of the movie wasn't bad. I did spot the Millenium Falcon prototype in the background of one scene, and I was amused by the constant traffic in the background. I liked the over-sized iguana Obi-Wan rode, although I wonder why someone gave him such a half-trained mount. Yes, I was rooting for it to survive, too. I figure the reason Obi-Wan left Anakin on the lava planet was because he could see him sliding toward the lava and catching fire and knew he was doomed. The fight itself was classical Anakin stupidity.

I'll also throw in my take on something I'd rewrite. I can't see a woman as strong-willed and competent as Padme dying of a broken heart, especially given Leia's comment about remembering her mother. Instead, I'd have Padme taken in by Bail Organa and his family and kept in hiding with the hope that she'd be able to raise her daughter to be a proper successor. Some years later, Padme is killed, perhaps in an ambush or by betrayal.

Overall, I've wasted more time and money in worse ways.
CJ

[Argent Towers]

I still don't see how anyone here could include one of the new prequels among the "top three" in a ranked list of Star Wars movies.

The sarcastic charisma of Harrison Ford, played brilliantly off Carrie Fisher's gradually diminishing snobbishness and Mark Hammill's youth, MADE the original Star Wars. The new films have no such rougishly charming hero.

[Walker in Eternity]

Saw the movie today. Wow, was it crap. I mean really, really crap. Unintentionally funny like Battlefield Earth crap. The entire movie pretty much consisted of alternating between beautifully rendered but utterly senseless action scenes and cringingly bad dialogue between cardboard characters to advance the asinine, half-baked plot. I actually started to try napping through the dialogue bits so I could at least enjoy the next bit of action eye candy.

Anakin, Jedi Council, Padme, insipid, insipid, insipid. Palpatine had all the subtlety of a kick to the head.

Except for about 10 to 15 minutes of watchable film, this was pretty much a C movie with a huge budget. Man, I so want my money back.


Sounds like you're describing Return of The Jedi to me. ( I just watched it again yesterday).

While the Star Wars films can never be described as high art, Sith was better than the rest of the prequels and certainly better than Jedi. If only because of the lack of Ewoks and /or other cute and annoying characters.

[AmericanMaid]

Well, I retract my previous opinion of Revenge of the Sith due to catching a matinee yesterday with my brother (my original Star Wars geek enabler). I really enjoyed the movie! It helped going in with modified expectations. Revenge of the Sith is now my favorite prequel. Musicwise, I think The Phantom Menace is tops. Did anyone buy the Revenge of the Sith soundtrack? How is it?
Anyone else want a book series that follows the Millienium Falcon's original owner? Anyone else going to watch the original trilogy and try to spot the places where Artoo seems to know more than everyone else? My brother mentioned several glaring parts of ANH when Artoo was more knowledgable than everyone else. Also, the whole discrepancy with Leia remembering her mother and Luke not could be explained by the birth order. Maybe Sidious wasn't lying about the Sith ability to extend life yet he neglected to mention that this ability makes you a ghost. How ironic that the Jedi mastered the technique that eluded Anakin and ultimately lead to his fall?

[Merijeek]

The fact that he rarely spoke just made him more sinister, evil and mysterious. He got right down to the business of killing. None of the usual blathering on that Sith do with their "you should join me on the Dark Side so you can experience true power because I've embraced the Dark Side and grown more powerful than you can imagine and if you don't join me I'm going to destroy you with my great power and then continue with my diabolical plans to dominate the galaxy, bwah, ha, ha!"

So you admit he was nothing more than an attack dog.

See? You've just taken your first step into a larger world.

-Joe

[Argent Towers]

[criticism]

Sounds like you're describing Return of The Jedi to me. ( I just watched it again yesterday).

I don't understand why so many people hate ROTJ - and how anyone would prefer any one of the prequels to it. All the creativity that went into Jabba the Hutt and his palace, and all of the ingenious animatronics and costumes behind the creatures in the beginning of that movie alone (unlike the prequels' lousy CGI that ages poorly and looks like the latest video game's graphics 5 years down the road) make it at least a decent movie to me.

Sure the ewoks are kind of annoying, but you have to appreciate that that's a real live person inside each one of those furry little suits - and they look and act a lot more real than computer graphics.

Lastly - the scene where Luke removes Darth Vader's mask is an amazing scene, and the best one in the movie, in my opinion. To see the imposing, faceless, mechanical Darth Vader weak and vulnerable, wheezing with his last breaths, revealed to be nothing more than a sad-looking, scarred old man, the emotion in that scene is nowhere to be found in any of the prequels - and that includes the latest one.

[duality72]

Sounds like you're describing Return of The Jedi to me. ( I just watched it again yesterday).

While the Star Wars films can never be described as high art, Sith was better than the rest of the prequels and certainly better than Jedi. If only because of the lack of Ewoks and /or other cute and annoying characters.

I just can't agree with you. For all it's faults, ROTJ is still a watchable film. It has characters you care about, you can believe their motivations and interactions. You can actually tell what's going on in the action scenes. Granted, it benefits a lot from the goodwill and background it brings forward from the earlier movies, but it's at least a competent piece of film-making.

ROTS is like a first-year film student won the lottery, from bad script to bad direction. Did no one tell Lucas that this script doesn't make a lick of sense? That the characters' motivations (or lack of them) are all wrong? That making your characters as dumb as posts really turns the audience off? That calling the dialogue wooden is an insult to trees everywhere? Yes, this movie drags in the badwill and lack of background from the earlier movies, but this was a chance to do better and it fails miserably.

And what female pissed in George's cereal? The only woman with more than a passing presence is Padme and she comes off as a complete twat. Her onscreen romance with Anakin has had all the smoldering passion of a tea candle. She can't believe he would do anything wrong even though he's a whiny jerk every time they talk and he FREAKING SLAUGHTERED A VILLAGE OF SAND PEOPLE INCLUDING CHILDREN. We're not talking about a doe-eyed teenager here, she's supposed to be a mature woman, and she doesn't get the slightest hint that maybe he's got issues? Then Anakin flips on the dark side switch (guess I'm evil now), and she has nothing to live for? Uh, how about saving that Republic you loved so much? Making sure friends and loved ones survive the new emperor's rule? How about YOUR FREAKING CHILDREN? Has George never met a pregnant woman?

Bleh. I think I'll just stick with the "There are only three Star Wars movies" self-deception and forget I-III even exist. At least the Serenity trailer looked damn good.

[rjung]

Revenge of the Sith is now my favorite prequel.
That's not a high bar to clear. ;)

[ISiddiqui]

It's been almost a month since RotS came out and on self-reflection, it is STILL my second favorite Star Wars movie after ESB. It barely beats out ANH for me. Sorry, but I never considered the Star Wars movies to be high art and the entertainment value of RotS was just wonderful to me.

Btw, may I say at this point that I really, REALLY hate when people go for the whole "There were no sequals" self-deception. I just don't get the point. Obviously they've seen the movies and didn't like them. Are they trying to be funny? Because it ain't. It's more annoying. No offense to you, duality72. I just find it to be, by far, the most annoying thing done on this forums.

[levdrakon]

So you admit he was nothing more than an attack dog.

See? You've just taken your first step into a larger world.

-Joe

Nope. But thanks for playing.